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An Up Close And Personal Look At The Russian Firepower Deployed In Syria
As Moscow’s air campaign in Syria enters its sixth day, both the West and The Kremlin have put their respective media propaganda machines into overdrive.
In many respects, the geopolitical stakes for both sides are the highest they’ve been in decades. The West cannot afford to stand by and watch Russia do in a matter of weeks what the US has failed to accomplish in 13 months. Put simply: if Moscow declares victory over ISIS within the next month or two (and that appears as likely as not), Washington will be left to explain to a bewildered public what just happened. To the uninitiated, it will appear as though Russia’s military is far superior to the US Army when it comes to fighting terror and on top of that, Iran’s now well publicized role will not only cast further doubt on the nuclear deal, but will also raise questions about the contention that Tehran is committed to financing and exporting terror.
For Russia, the powerplay in Syria represents nothing short of a return to the world stage after decades of flying below the radar as a second rate superpower. Putin has now proven that Moscow can project its influence with virtual impunity and as Monday’s “accidental” violation of Turkish airspace suggests, The Kremlin is getting more brave by the day in the face of what certainly looks like a de facto surrender by the West.
All of the above presents a real challenge when it comes to analyzing the conflict. That is, with both sides in full-on spin mode, getting at the truth is even more difficult than it would normally be in an East vs. West standoff and while US foreign policy is something of an easy target when it comes to pointing out hypocrisy and outright incompetence, one also has to be careful to avoid taking the Russian line at face value because after all, this is all just a contest to control the narrative and thus to help determine how history will remember the Syrian civil war.
With all of that said, watching Russia effectively humiliate the West by bragging day in and day out is nothing if it’s not amusing, and indeed, as we said on Sunday, the leaked diplomatic cable from 2006 which outlines Washington’s intent to effectively start a civil war in Syria leaves one completely uninclined to be at all sympathetic to the ridiculous situation the US and its allies have found themselves in and on that note, we present the following rundown from Sputnik and RT, respectively, of just what type of hardware Moscow is using on the way to routing anti-regime elements in Syria.
Of course one could easily create a similar profile for Washington's military hardware with the only difference being that the US likes to perpetuate the myth that there's a degree of separation between the Army, the government, and weapons manufacturers.
From Sputnik:
A wide range of missiles and bombs equipped with advanced guidance systems are currently being used by Russia in its air campaign against Islamic State militants in Syria.
During precision airstrikes, Russian weaponry is launched from high altitudes to evade mobile air-defense systems.
The precision bombs typically use the GLONASS navigation system to destroy targets, the Russian developed alternative to GPS, whereas missiles are guided by a weapons system operator.
The precision weapons include is the KAB guided bomb, which includes two modifications such as KAB-250 and KAB-500.The KAB-250 bomb was designed in the 2000s for the Russian fifth generation PAK-FA fighter jet. Its distinctive egg-shaped form can be explained by the fact that this bomb is mounted in inside the plane's bays.
The bomb is also used by advanced Russian warplanes, including the Su-34 bombers, which are currently taking part in the air operation in Syria. The aircraft drop these bombs on Islamic State targets from an altitude of 5,000 meters.
The concrete-piercing BETAB-500 bombs are equipped with a jet booster, which allows the bombs to completely destroy any underground installation.
From RT:
The Su-34 is a strike fighter and the most modern aircraft to take part in Russia’s operation against Islamic State in Syria.
Its development began in the mid-’80s as a replacement for the Su-24, with the country’s military receiving the first batch of new warplanes in 2006.
The jet is designed for the supersonic penetration of enemy airspace at treetop level in the most severe weather and battle conditions.
The two-pilot strike fighter is sometimes referred to as ‘a flying tank’ due to an armored cockpit and efficient standoff weapons, which enable it to survive not only missile fragments, but even direct hits from small caliber arms.
The Su-24 is a tactical bomber meant to fly below the radar and hit ground targets from low altitudes. The military wanted the plane to have short take-off and landing capabilities to so that it could be used on small airfields.
An early prototype had four turbojet engines that complemented two main engines during take-off. The scheme, however, proved to be very inefficient, so instead designers gave it variable-sweep wings.
The plane first entered service in the early 1970s. A decade later a better variant called Su-24M with a different radar and targeting equipment needed for more precise weapons was introduced. This model is the backbone of Russia’s tactical bomber. Sukhoi continues upgrading the aircraft.
Su-25 is another Russian Air Force work horse, introduced in early 1980s. The jet was designed for close air support – that is, to directly help ground forces engage the enemy.
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and the thrashing begins in 3, 2, 1...
It depends on how vulnerable the F-22 is to upgraded Russian jamming and radar detection. If the reports are true about Russia's EWS capabilities the F-22 would be a sitting duck. It's really just theoretical at this point since there has not been a known encounter between an F-22 and latest generation EWS. We may find out soon though.
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/hawaii-air-guard-f-22s-deploy-to-the-mi...
New 'radar' detects disturbances in the air. No one can hide from that technology.
https://defencerussia.wordpress.com/2015/02/19/aerospace-defense-troops-...
New 'radar' detects disturbances in the air.
Both the Russians and the Chinese have dumped TONS of money into this technology along with the same type of technology based in satellites. The end result is that their gains in these areas have made the whole concept of "stealth aircraft" technologically obsolete as planes like the F-117 and F-22 can be detected by their "wake" through the atmosphere and nothing can be done to hide that . . . people need to realize that these planes wouldn't be going up against the likes of Iraq or Libya but countries with as good as, if not better, high tech capabilities than the USA.
http://m.aviationweek.com/technology/new-radars-irst-strengthen-stealth-...
Since the downing of the F117 nighthawk over Yugoslavia, the Russians have modernized the use of long wave radar to paint instantaneously. They've also integrated these radars with effective identification systems that recognize the RCA signatures of enemy aircraft.
and I think the Chinese got the pieces of that plane. It was knocked down about half an hour drive from where I come from
Pozdrav. Zivio.
The Russians shut down an entire Aegis class destroyer for 45 minutes. I think that F-22 is in trouble.
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/11/13/aegis-fail-in-black-sea-ruskies-...
Yip, long range tanks, they're headed over the pond.
https://youtu.be/P3BmbjfXZMg
This should be interesting. It wont be like afghanistan or Iraq where neither had an airforce.
If Putin wins Syria its check mate. Russia and Iran will control the whole middle east. And look whos caught right in the middle... Oh look! It's Israel.
its not the equipment but how you use it, at this point given a two hour notice i dont think our govt would even scramble jets in time to stop a Russian bear from nuking any state.
Yeah. F-22. Really cool. That's why they're pulling it out of service and replacing it with the flying 55 gallon drum, the F-35. So what if? Russia can probably build three jets for what the US spends on one. And the US spends money it doesn't have. Give the US another five years, they'll be selling those F-22's on eBay for spare cash to pay welfare bills.
It's not being pulled out of service, nor is the F-35 intended to replace it.
That's true. However, the F-22 program does not have anymore funding (therefore what we've got is what we'll have). The F-35's are currently grounded due to mechanical design flaws (the official reason) but really is inferior in the sense that it was designed to be a jack of all trades fighter that does nothing it was intended to do really well.
A recent war game showed older F-16's beat the F-35 in aerial combat.
The F-35 is not grounded. But it is a shit program, unless it's got something really advanced that is not public knowledge.
The entire fleet was grounded last year for a few months. Some variants are still not flying.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/13/us-lockheed-martin-fighter-idU...
This just came out today.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3260675/Pilots-eject-new-350bill...
Minus the F-22. Russia & China have superiority in the air right now.
A Swiss Army knife with lots of dull and broken parts.
It can do everything...
Badly.
They started production of the F-35 before they had finished designing it. To save time don't you understand? Adding in the vertical take-off and landing version for the Marines was a big, big mistake. Since the older Harrier, that does the same thing, has the highest accident rate ever recorded you would think they would have learned, but it is the Marines we are talking about.
You may have watched Top Gun for way too many times.
Russia has nothing that will compete with the F-22. Just saying.
Bullshit . . . Russia's new PAK-FA fighter may not have the stealth capabilities of the F-22 but in a one on one dogfight it would kick the F-22's ass . . . . just saying.
Not likely. Also, consider that the PAK-FA may not have the same mission as the F-22. This is an error referred to as "mirroring," and it can lead to false conclusions about the role of a particular aircraft.
Russia has nothing that WE KNOW OF THAT will compete with the F-22. Just saying.
https://youtu.be/xh49qn2cQNU
There, fixed it for yah.
Squid
Theres nothing that turns tighter, faster, or goes vertical like the F-22 .<thats a period
BS, BS and BS. Congrats ! That makes it a triple, I believe...
Keep on believing that. "Going vertical" is easy if you shove enough fuel through the afterburners. Problem is you run out of fuel very quickly. Turning is a function of the wing area and aircraft weight, and is probably optimized with the F-16. As far as speed performance goes, a big deal is made of the ability of the F-22 to cruise supersonically without the use of afterburner. The F-104 could do the same thing; it first flew in 1955.
Maybe a squadron of 30,000 ducks with steel bolts in their gizzards.
this puppy can fly too. Just saying:
https://youtu.be/b-VNSJMiNt0?t=27
It's got too much junk in the trunk. Could never win a dogfight with an F-22.
If IRAN is successful with iraq and syria, they should move to setup a Middle Eastern Economic Union that will eventually be joined in the AIIB and partnered with the Russian EURASIAN bloc. The "MEEU" bloc of countries should also act as a defensive ring(an ME NATO equivalent) with RUSSIAN and CHINESE BASES installed( TWO TO FOUR JOINT MILITARY BASES IN THE ME WONT KILL RUSSIA OR CHINA) as well as an economic engine capable of becoming an regional economic power house for the region. IRAN should also give RUSSIA an fighter jet operating BASE near the coast of IRAN for rapid deployment. IF you guys think the americans dont have something up their sleeves you are sorely mistaken, the first rule of war is never underestimate your enemy.
"..watch Russia do in a matter of weeks what the US has failed to accomplish in 13 months"
LOL , What makes you think the US was trying to defeat ISIS? Mainstrem fucking News Media???? Just go back to watching Dancing with the Stars or some shit.
lady says two weeks
https://youtu.be/XY5KTVA_2ys?t=3s
POUR IT ON VLAD! no stopping till the whole fuckin' region is sweep clean as a hound's tooth . NEW FUCKIN' SHERIFF IN TOWN.
Hey Vlad,, either shit or get off the pot,, quit fucking around.
http://fortruss.blogspot.com/2015/10/ukraine-moves-tanks-and-missile.htm...
don't think vlad's in the best of moods right now for the ukies to be doin' this. POUR IT ON VLAD and get the fuckin' job done. hang porky by the heels.
Oh, they want to be a dust on the road... okay.
Here is to any videos showing Putin dealing with ISIS the same way he delt with pirates.
In couple of days Syria will be occupied by the little green men by then ISIS will be history.
ZH needs an alternate means of streaming - otherwise we are screwed. I'm not sure how enjoyable popcorn will be while sitting in the dark.
yomutti: The righteous always prevail.!
If you had said Chuck Norris always prevails I might be inclined to agree.
Usually it is that evil fucker that will go the extra mile.
You don't see white guys living on reservations, do ya?
b
The US propaganda machine would have us believe that Russia is still flying WW2 planes.
They never mention tha the hellfire missle has killed a million innocent children in the middle east. All in the name of "patriotism," of course.
All in the name of profits for defense contractors...................
According to Debka: With Russia’s Dep. Army Chief due in Israel, Moscow posts 64 S-300 ship-to-air missiles off Syria, N. Israel - Russia’s deputy chief of staff, Gen. Nikolay Bogdanovsky, accompanied by a large military delegation, arrives in Israel for a two-day visit on Tuesday, Oct. 6, to discuss increased coordination between the two militaries. However, Moscow seems to be sending Jerusalem an altogether different message: Friday, Oct. 2, the Russian Defense Ministry announced the surprise deployment of Navy cruiser, the Moskva, armed with 64 advanced anti-aircraft missiles S-300 ship-to-air missiles opposite the Syrian coastal town of Latakia.
Israel may try to think of some scheme to get on the good side of Putin. Usually they would sell out the US, as for example when they had Pollard steal US secrets for years and give them to the Soviets in exchange for letting Jews emigrate to Israel (most of them moved from there to Canada or the US). They may try to sell out the Saudis and the Ukrainians; now that would be justice
I think aniother Israeli false flat attack like the USS Liberty incident is out; if Russia and the US go to war in Syria, Russia would be forced to target all those hundreds of US forces stationed in a surveillance base built literally on top of their nuclear installation in Dimona. Israel's strategy is to have US soilders in position as a sacrificial shield to prevent Iran from counterstriking Dimona after Israel launced a first strike at Iranian nuclear facilities for fear of providing DC the justification for attacking Iran too. Russia undoubtedly has moles in the IDF, since a million or so Russians became Israeils. The stakes for Bibi are too high and the Russians at this point too unpredictable; Putin is on fire because of the Ukraine and because he knows that Syria is the Stalingrad of our time. The Zio Nazi JFE (Jewish Financial Empire) will be defeated in Syria.
Curious... Not trying to be confrontational here, really...
How are you so in tune with Satan's plan?
Satan talks to his dog and the fuckin' dog won't keep his mouth shut.
That's funny, say you don't own any handguns made by Charter arms do you?
For those curious about Russian radar and air defense capabilities you might be interested in this;
Top US and NATO Commanders Admit They Cannot Oppose Russian No-Fly Zone
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/top-us-and-nato-commanders-admit-t...
"American military expert, a former Colonel of the U.S. army Jack Jacobs said that the United States can't interfere with Russians in Syria, as Russia de facto set up a no-fly zone, cutting off access to any aircraft with the help of air defense systems deployed on land and on ships of the Russian navy in the Mediterranean."
“The Russians have indicated that they can see everything, and getting closer is not worth it, otherwise it will be shot down”, - said the American military.
“Frankly we were surprised by the air defense system of Russia, most likely there are the latest systems S-400. I have no other ideas,” - said Colonel Jack Jacobs.
Google USS Donald Cook for a view of real Russian electromagnetic weapons capability which one US Gerneral described as 'eye-watering'. The Donald Cook incident was a demonstration of an earlier generation of such weaponry - they will not disclose what the current generation can do. The Russians are far ahead of the rest of the world in such weaponry. They have radar that can see everything and also disquise itself in such as to not reveal its source. They have weapons that can fool enemy missiles into either exploding prematurely or altering their trajectory. The US has nothing that can compare - and they know it. They will squeal and make lots of threats to try to intimidate, but in the end they know they do not have the capability to challenge Russia's mastery of the Syrian skies.
even the little frog foot can destroy IDF F16's
Glad to see the airplanes carrying air to air missles...
The piece of hardware you don't see or hear until it's too late.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval
Somebody had to lead. Washington wasn't doing it.
Washington WAS leading, but it was just leading the world in an AMORAL/SATANIC direction!!. (hate to use the word satanic, not being a religious person, but that is what the Jewish Financial Empire is all about)
Israel has been helping the Kurds. Bibi would like to offer his Kurdish friends' support to Vlad in the Syrian NE, on the cheap. The Kurds, however, may require that Turkey be broken in half, like Humpty Dumpty. Not much the U.S. can do if Bibi is working the other side of the street. The map is already drawn and Turkey looks a lot smaller. And to think the U.S. has been diddling Isis so that all the Palestinian Christian refugee camps in Syria could be leveled a la Ariel Sharon. Beyond tragic.
Bibi has been helping the Iraqi Kurds because Israeli companies got sweetheart oil contracts. Hey if Israeli is going to get Uncle Sugar to destroy Iraq for him, why not make some more moolah off it? But israel helping Syrian Kurds ain't going to happen, because then you will have to write off Israel'si plan to use the Turks to supply the anti Assad terrorists. The main goal of Israel is to eliminate Assad so that Iran cannot supply Hezbollah over a Syrian route. The Syrian Kurds and the Turkish Kurds are fighting together agaisnt the Turks.
Israeli air raid hits Gaza after rocket attack By AFP Published: October 5, 2015one of the biggest xfactors for world war 3 is the salting orbit weapons that no one speaks off. we already know that 1) gamma radiation and high energy particles from nuclear explotions in orbit dissipiate somewhat rapidly enough for 'hardened' sattelites to survive most nuclear airballs in orbital space. 2) you can possibly start a chain reaction if you atomize an actual sattelite with a very serious explotion directly on target and then those little particles hit other sattelites. 3) the ISS space station would be a sitting duck and actually QUITE DIFFICULT TO DEORBIT QUICKLY IN AN EMERGENCY. ----MEANING ANYONE CAN HIT IT DIRECTLY WITH AN ICBM TO CREATE A MASSIVE ORBITAL CLOUD OF HIGH SPEED MARBLE DEBRIS 4) it is very possible that there are advanced armored sattlites to deal with this kind of high speed impacting marbles. 5) it is very possible there are capabilities to put sattelites in high orbits out of the reach of these marbles on a moments notice 6) it is unlikely there is an orbital 'clearning' device that can effectlive stop the chain reaction and clear it out. 7) a chain reaction leaves little pieces in orbit that can easily stay in orbit for a few months disabling gps and glonass for months or years at a time. 8) partial gps might be 80% as useful as full gps coverage 9) american military might operate extremely well without gps but the assumption is that it doesn't.
Nobody speaks of them because they are fake threats.
<<one of the biggest xfactors for world war 3 is the salting orbit weapons that no one speaks off. >>
Im guessing its all equal at the end of the day and frankly it all kills. Why we have to disply like a car show is another question....just more Death Cult hype. Guessing the same people that finaced the US/EU verison also did the Russian/APAC model. Long Wheelchairs and sadness
Godliness with contentment is great gain!
Firstly, "5000 meters" is not high-altitude, 10,000 m to 18,000 m is the normal high-altitude bombing range. The videos shown indicate no precision attacks so far, just typical iron bomb patterns produced by diving from mid level to release just outside MANPADS altitude range, then pull-up and climb again. Thus not going no lower than ~15k feet. They've been bombing that way with Su24 and Su25 since Afghanistan in the 1980s. Also jets can be seen and heard from the altitude fairly easily so it provides warning of impending attack.
And merely stating a jet has a weapon integrated on it, does not mean that weapon is being used as Sputnik and RT are both insinuating. The videos of attacks clearly show they aren't using more expensive precision-guided weapons, as yet. And there is a difference between what used to be called a "precision attack", and a "precision-guided attack". Yes, the RuAF can be claimed to be making "precision attacks" with iron 'dumb' bombs, as precision attack using a bombing sight computer is in fact the correct term to use in that case. But the result is nothing like a "precision-guided attack" - a totally different critter.
The RuAF are apparently doing this a cheaply as possible and will loathe to use their most expensive and effective (and hard to replace) weapons, which they will have in limited numbers. So their jets must instead to stay as low as possible, <20k feet but >15K ft, to remain out of effective MANPADS reach.
When they did that sort of attack in Afghanistan, in the 1980s, they attacked into deep valleys with 8,000 ft to 12,000 ft mountains either side, and guys firing Stingers from the summits along the valley walls, which both greatly extended the Stinger's altitude and range performance. Plus the thinner less hazy colder air (good for IR sensor performance) on mountain tops allowed better IR target acquisition and tracking, so they could fire earlier.
The RUAF won't face that mountain terrain in Syria so the MANPADS will probably be less effective, although newer versions of MANPADS have better sensors, high speed and better altitude range, so will still be dangerous.
The text with the last video yesterday said it took six attacks to eliminate the camp in the woods, and you can plainly see they were return attacks, not a continuous attack, as the sunlight angles and shadow lengths kept changing. It looks like it took them most of the day to get it done. So plenty of time for targets to escape between attacks. In contrast a flight of western aircraft using actual precision-guided weapons, from a genuine high-altitude would have destroyed all targets in a single pass with no missed targets, and no one would have heard or seen them coming or going either.
So given the attack tactics and weapons used, I don't expect rapid progress, the RuAF jets will plug away for months or even years doing this. Mid-level iron bombing may look dramatic but not going to sweep all before it, and their targets will realize this and adapt. The main difference here is the RuAF are using modern ELINT/ISR support aircraft to locate and generate targets, so this will greatly improve their effectiveness when compared to the same RuAF jets even a decade ago.
The only thing that matter is that some terrorist are dying everyday...HAHAHAHA!
Alex - 'I'll take "mole in the hole" for $200.
Good point but why spend your expensive hardware if you can do it the old fashioned way? Targets might get away but as you said they have modern support aircraft (and Syrian intelligence) to locate their targets. They might save their expensive stuff for later. In wars while there is no urgency you first use up your stuff that is approaching expiration date.
Remember, this is the first Russian real foreign intervention (compared to NATO that has decades of experience) so they might need to get used to the situation.
I don't disagree Joe, others have said that too, and I didn't disagree with them either. This maybe helps balance the thoroughly unrealistic 'reporting' and propaganda that this is going to be a rapid-fire triumphal conquest of the super-pootie demonstrating instant success and mopping-up ISIS in a week.
The White house downplayed ISIS, pretended they were almost beat, it was all OK, and the US analysts said hey, you're wrong, you're not even listening, they are getting bigger and stronger, we need to go in hard right now, etc. So I think anyone now pretending this will be fast is nuts.
In practice it will be messy and slow, no matter what weapon types are used, but iron bombs are the slowest way.
And as you would know, it's situation-normal to always massively over-estimate effects of such unguided bombing, because it looks dramatic and is so spun to spike perceptions, but the practical effect is normally much lower than is believed or asserted.
Too right. The first footage of the bombing looked like those old WWII arial bombings: missing the target and bombing an empty field next to it. Of course even iron bombs nowadays are smarter than the bombs of thoese days.
This will not be over soon. Question is if Putin can afford a long campaign. That is what they did them in in Afghanistan but the playingfield is different this time. Especially when the Iranians come along with ground forces. The US for now seem impotent but perhaps they have a plan.
Whatever the scenario, the bloodshed will go on.
Russia's strategy is to move (terrorize?) the terrorists into a smaller and smaller pockets where they will be mopped up by the Syrian Army with Iranian techical help on the ground. As you destroy tanks, cars, supplies, the terrorists wil have to move to the fewer and fewer remaining locations if nothing else, to try to commandeer the remaining trucks to escape being killed. I don't see how you can kill a thousand scattered men on the ground by precision bombs unless you want to create a free fire zone like we did in Vietnam and kill every living thing. Now that would be the way the US/Zio/Nazis fight; but the Russians are not trying to wipe out all Syrians; instead they want to wipe out the TERRORISTS shipped in from the outside by the ZioNazis. We spent 50 million dollars to kill each Taliban in Afghanistan, but the Russians will need to spend only 5K to kill each terrorist in Syria
Russians see this as being a repeat of the war against the Germans in the guise of the ZioNazis; Putin and the Russians have decided that this is it. Defeat is unnacceptable and they will bear far more hardship than the Americans or Europeans. This is not Afghanistan or the Ukraine even. Russia has to hold onto Syria and their Iranian alliance to have the option (if Turkey threatens to block the Med route for the Black sea fleet) to move supplies overland to the Kurds in Syria so that Turkey will have to fight a very difficult war in the mountains. Russia has to have a route to the Med and it must have a way of threatening or even attacking Turkey via a proxy army such as the Kurds.
Americans on the other hand are divided; the intelligentsia know that the reason we are over there is a fraud; 911 was clearly an inside job with Israeli planning and that our government has become the a ZioNazi regime aiming for world enslavement. The typical American is profoundly ignorant when it comes to realpolitik, but after 10 years of living through a depression and bankers 8 trillion dollar bailout and with their wages reduced by unfettered immigration, they are in NO MOOD to help the Jews out either (the Congress is another matter, but they are not able to go against a majority opinion when it comes to wars since wars need the cooperation of the citizens to become cannon fodder or else riots develop. The Jews have fewer and fewer allies left among the Christian (hatred from the Moslems, no support among the Orthodox Christians, Buddhists, or Hindus; some support from the Catholics; mostly their support comes from the TV ministry and Southern Baptist Christians. For the Jews, by design or not, they are approaching a Masada moment. History repeats.
Bibi is under so much stress that he was clearly emotionally breaking down in front of the UN during his infamous 45 seconds of staredown at the world. Bibi is acting like a deer caught in the headlights. The way out of this for him would be for him to make peace with the Palestinains before Syria, Lebanon, Iraq become united as a common defense zone with Russia's nuclear backup. Who knows?
Just keep in mind the Turks are feeling a bit belligerent and have an extremely well developed capability to destroy the black sea fleet at port, or underway, and to support all sorts of nasty activities that Russia would not like at all. It's not a one way street. Just because Russia really wants something, does not mean Russian will get it, or hold it.
btw, a second Russian attack jet just went into Turkish airspace, and Turkey issued a direct warning to Moscow, so I fully expect the next one will be shot down, without further notice.
The Turks would close the Bosphorus Strait at their own risk. And to contemplate them attacking Russia's Black Sea port is pure fantasy - they would be destroyed in less than an hour and Ankara lying in burning ruins. Mess with Russia's Black Sea Fleet and you are asking for destruction.
Shoot down a Russian plane and wait for the avenging angel to overtake you very quickly.
blather
I have to agree with you here, Element. The footage of attacks released so far has left me unimpressed about the actual precision of attacks. Most of the time I can't even tell what they were aiming for - the footage is from surveillance aircraft, not the attacking ones. Not that this is necessarily bad - it just doesn't matter at this point. If Russia had endless supplies of JDAMs, Hellfires and Paveway IIIs like the U.S., they would use them just like the U.S. does against tractors and motorcycles. Since they don't, then it may take six sorties to level a camp. At the end of the day, the headchopper camp is gone either way. It would have been a headchopper camp that the U.S. would never have touched anyways, so who cares how the Russians chose to destroy it.
The Russians are doing what they need to do, not stupid stuff just to do something. And I never heard of headchoppers running away from areas the U.S. was bombing. They seem to be pretty distressed about the Russians showing up with their less-than-precise bombs for some reason.
I'm surprised that Russia doesn't have something like the U.S. Mk-80 family of iron bombs that they can strap guidance kits on. They do have equivalents to the Paveway III and JDAM, but those are purposely-built. All their dumb bombs seem to have integrated, welded tails that couldn't easily be swapped with a precision guidance kit. I suppose that could be explained by Russia not needing hundreds of thousands of bombs in the last few decades because they don't attack as many defenseless countries with their air force like the U.S. does on a regular basis.
All in the family Paveway IV LOL. I've learned... perspective. Thanks. Rock on.
Yes to your comments, but the above bit is baloney, just the spreading of chicken feed for the chickens to peck over.
Other point is, the ability to do one pass means that with more than one pilot per jet, two or three sorties per 24 hours is doable, and each target will be hit first time, if the ISR support is good enough. The Russians are doing it the slowest possible way, meaning it won't be over soon, and their combat effects will be much less than assumed or asserted. I think that's going to matter as all the narratives will of course be wrong.
And the result will be media will eventually presume ISIS was much stronger that thought, rather than realize that the bombing was ineffectively performed, using sub-optimal weapons.
That will play out quite differently to the current expectations.
The Pentagon will realize this and may just stand back and let the Russians do it's best, and also fail to produce good results, and then have to explain why it was incapable of succeeding as fast as expected, claimed or people were led to believe?
It's not just the lack of molecularity of GBU type weapons and strap on packs they lack, until quite recently they have badly lacked the integrated avionic and sensor attack capabilities the F/A-18A/B had all the way back in 1982. The RuAF are only now moving into precision guidance systems in a significant way, and as you point out, their weapons are still stove-piped to older systems, so expensive, and expensive to replace too.
"...but the above bit is baloney, just the spreading of chicken feed for the chickens to peck over..."
JaS hasn't been the least bit concerned with the SAAF and, of course, has nothing to fear from ZATO. The fact that anyone shows up to bomb their headquarters and ammo dumps far from the front line has to be disconcerting. Sure they'll adjust, but they never had to worry about this at all before. SAAF helicopters and the few operational jets they have left are usually busy with the relatively hot urban areas. Are JaS Front, al Nusra and ISIS deserting en masse? Not at all. But they're going to be a bit more paranoid about the skies in Latakia and Idlib from now on.
"...The Russians are doing it the slowest possible way, meaning it won't be over soon, and their combat effects will be much less than assumed or asserted..."
Agree, and I'm sure the Russians are fine with that.
"...I think that's going to matter as all the narratives will of course be wrong..."
Generally, yes. But I wonder how overstated the numbers and capability of Jas Front, al Nusra and ISIS really are right now? Logistics networks are everything and theirs might be extremely fragile - or maybe not. If the 'Russians will kick ass in no time' narrative proves right, it will be because of something like a frail rebel logistics network - which is quite invisible to us spectators right now.
"...And the result will be media will eventually presume ISIS was much stronger that thought, rather than realize that the bombing was ineffectively performed, using sub-optimal weapons..."
Well, they have to mis-attribute to details that SELL. I disagree with your particular example here because "ISIS is stronger than we thought" will have as much MSM-shill curb appeal as "The Russians don't know what the hell they're doing!" But, yes, it will be mis-attribution just the same. Facts are not entertaining enough.
"...The Pentagon will realize this and may just stand back and let the Russians do it's best, and also fail to produce good results, and then have to explain why it was incapable of succeeding as fast as expected, claimed or people were led to believe?..."
I disagree. Russia is screwing up their already-failing game-plan. The Pentagon only knows how to fight weak opponents with impugnity. Frustrated psychopaths rarely just sit back - they HAVE to do something. If the Pentagon was at all rational, then that would be something to look for. 'Waiting' doesn't sell bombs. General Dynamics and Raytheon need to be fed. If they do sit on their hands for a while, it's because they have no plan now.
"...until quite recently they have badly lacked the integrated avionic and sensor attack capabilities the F/A-18A/B had all the way back in 1982..."
Give them time to catch up. They haven't been at war continuously for the last four decades like the peace-loving U.S. of A.
Element, what you say is true but it misses the point. Russia now owns the airspace. That means ISIS no longer has a supply line or protection. They can be herded around and become easier prey for the syrian army, backed up with russian and iranian troops.
The Saudis, Turks and Israelis still want the same end result here though (and more than ever) and the Saudi mosques are calling for a Sunni 'Jihad' against Russian forces in Syria, so I don't think they're screwing around. Wonderful allies the Saudis, not awkward at all.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/05/us-mideast-crisis-saudi-cleric...
More likely is initial SA and Iranian successes then protracted re-intensified Sunni insurgency, even as the Turks keep pounding the Kurds (and didn't the Kurds fall out of favor fast with Washington and the MSM ... which keeps Turks and Iraq happy and even serves Syrian and Iranian interests).
There's another distinct possibility here though, the Sunni maniacs are reinforced and 'tasked' with roughing up the Russians until they and Iranians are forced to withdraw (however long that takes). The aftermath would be extremely messy, but it may go that way, as the chances for an ending the conflict and cooperation is slipping away.
If Russia wants to end this short of that, they may need to make Saudis, Israel and Turkey happy with the end result.
So what would that look like?
Interesting remarks Paveway.
You know a week ago I would have agreed, not so sure now as the USAF will take one look at the iron bombing and know that's going nowhere fast, so may wish to sit on its hands and watch. Politically there's a media cry to do more (mostly from the Russians), but the US military may just request the politicians to prep for a much bigger air attack, but wait to see how Russia goes.
Add to that the Saudis have started calling for "Jihad" against the Russians in Syria, and the Turks and Israelis will be happy to wait to see if that bears fruit. The Turks are much more interested in the Kurds than ISIL anyway.
As for US weaponeers, I've been monitoring the numbers, they have more work than you could shake a stick at, as of FY2015-16. A very different procurement priority and rate of production to the past two plus decades, just kicked in. The whole of US arms production switched from counter insurgency orientation back to advanced high-end high-rate weapons and platform production. Forward allocations are continuing that trend and expanding it further. Come Jan 2017 whoever is the new Prez, they're are going to have a very heavily armed military force that's rapidly expanding its high-end attack capabilities. As far as I can see pretty much all US Allies seem to be doing the same thing.
If it was just a matter of Russain vs. U.S. pure air attacks, then I see your point and wouldn't expect much from the current Russian ops.
Where the two differ is that Russia is prepping the areas for large Syrian/Hezbollah (and maybe Iranian) ground troop campaigns. Those, in turn, will be supported throughout with reliable Russian air cover enhancing their success rate at retaking territory. I think that's coming up pretty soon (days - weeks).
The U.S. strategy now is limited to using their increasingly crappy intel (if they have any at all) to take out an ISIS tractor with a hellfire, then wasting even more drone time or waiting for even more bad intel to figure out if it had any effect on ISIS. The entire strategy seems scatterbrained and ineffective. Plus, much of their intel is coming from compromised sources. Their FSA contacts have probably switched sides three times to various head-chopper groups since they were in the FSA. The U.S. doesn't even have a handle on this and isn't going to get worthwhile intel on anything except the rival head-chopper gang du jour. Since everyone in Latakia and Idlib is now basically under one of three head-chopper gangs (JaS, JaN and ISIS), their intel is crap. And the bombings are never going to be followed by ground troop asaults. Head-choppers love to give targeting info, but don't want to get killed securing that area afterwards. The U.S. airpower is little more than stand-off snipers with JDAMS taking on the most trivial of targets.
Re: weapon procurement - that's not the first time I heard about the buying spree. Gearing up for Iran after they get rid of Obama? Nearly every candidate is a chickenhawk and an Israeli-firster. We saw this before - one step back by lifting sanctions, then three steps forward by engineering inspection problems as a pretext for a U.N.-approved attack. Some say it's for Russia, but that's bullshit. If the chickenhawks push the U.S. into a hot war with Russia, it will also go nuclear by the chickenhawk's design.
Yes, I was presuming that, however from what I'm seeing the SA and Hezbollah have taken deep loses and need substantial rebuilding and retraining to move forward. As I see it they are relying on the Iranians to supplement SA units while that takes place, so it may be well into winter before they're ready to move forwards, and that means early spring until the fight really gets rolling.
True enough but the allied ISR and ELINT will be far more developed than you suppose, they will be modelling ISISL structure and locations in deep detail, have ben for months, and generating thousands of targets, and tracking them.
The primary problem is not the ineffectual-ness of the airpower it is inhibiting rules of engagement, and the US election cycle. Watch what happens from Feb 2017 if and when both change. You for one should know that US airpower is effective, if they decide to make it effective. What we're seeing is a defacto decision to keep it tokenistic. It's what the US's ISIL analysts were complaining about, as they know very well where the targets are and what can be done.
True enough, even if Trump blows it for the repubs, the next dem or repub will be glued to the current ME configuration, and likely to go on a rampage if Iran and Russia are still in Syria, at that point.
I don't agree, the types and numbers are clearly to confront high-end major powers. Iran simply does not warrant anything like those weapons, nor the numbers. Iran are no push over but they are nowhere near that league, the US could smash Iran with the weapons it had 30 years ago. No, this stuff is to make sure the big boys know they can not win any conventional battle.
The Russians have not denied using iron bombs as you call them, but it is clear that they are also using some of their more sophisticated technology as well. This is an area where neither you nore I have much idea what the Russians are really doing since by nature military ops are often hidden or propagandised to camoflage the truth - both in weapons used, their tactics, and their strategy. You speak as a former (current?) military person, so you should know better than most the information tactics used by any military. That is why I do not place much stock in your analysis, no matter its coherency.
It is of no consequence either way, the weapons are hitting their targets much less often per bomb dropped, that's the point that counts. It implies inefficiency of effort, and slower pace of effects accrual.
Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, Syria, all chances to use old soviet era inventory. The advantage being nobody can hide behind styrofoam. Or your roof remains intact if you're a hospital.
Simplified...
...the Su-34 is a less sohphisticated F-15 Strike Eagle (but with a toilet- yes, the Su-34 has a toilet).
...the Su-24 is a Russian version of the (retired) F-111 Aardvark
...the SU-25 is a poor man's A-10 Warthog
Simplified BS is still BS, of lower quality though...
Americans just can't help underestimating Russia and China's military and technical capabilities. That shortcoming in their character will significantly contribute to their failure to understand what has happened when they are defeated.
One...I am not American.
Two, what I stated above is true.
The Su-34 is not as good as the Strike Eagle. It's radar/avionics is not as good and it's performance is inferior (slightly). And the former does have a toilet.
The Su-24 WAS a direct development to counter the F-111 Aardvark...and I did not say it was worse then the Aardvark.
The Su-25 is not nearly as survivable or can carry nearly as much ordinance as the A-10 Warthog.
These are all facts.
No one wants to talk about the (obvious) Elephant in the Room. The US (read US taxpayers)/NATO along with the monarchies in the Persian Gulf, Jordan, Sultan Erdogan of Turkey and de facto US welfare state Israel have been supporting ISIS/ISIL/Daesh and related groups for years. The goal from the outset has been to get rid of Assad and turn Syria into a failed state along with Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Yemen. Putin clearly articulated the Russian position in his recent speech as the UN. Obama, by comparison, was borderline incoherent. It appears China wants to join the party and has dispatched naval vessels to the Syrian Coast. Thus, the Big Boys have decided to join the ME party. Very dangerous times ahead.Meet the new MIC, same as the old MIC.
Obama needed Syria in order to complete his Middle East Muslim Caliphate. Simple as that.
That's why from the get go, Obama said that Assad had to go.
Looking at those pics it seems obvious the Russkis be raciss! No diversity in the ground crews. Not one black or even brown face. /s
Russia doesn't have many blacks because it doesn't have a history of African slavery and colonialism like the US/UK/France.
Where have you been? Russia has a long history of slave labor. Ever hear of a Gulag? Stalin was famous for his forced labor camps in Siberia. Stalin slaughtered millions…
Well, there is always Sergei Shoigu.
OBAMA
doubled debt, created a new race war in usa, 5000000 illegals granted citizenship, continued bush's war policy in middle east (isis and co), recieved a nobel prize for doing nothing, forced promotion of gay marriage, destroyed middle class, says he is a christian but is living in front of a mosque, called himself "the closest to a jew sitting in the white house", coup in ukraine, mother was a whore, took drugs in youth (and maybe now), married a woman(?) stronger in physic than he himself, signs every contract oligarchs came up with, created a new nuclear arm race, faked birth certificate and unknown origin, uses "airforce one" most expensive tax payed jet to play golf, created first serious steps for gun control laws, abused several times power as president, fixed americans economy by destroying it comletely, separated europe from russia against its will by forcing sanctions tru cia, surveillance, massive propaganda, currency war, destroying of oil-industry to play war economic war games, etc etc etc etc etc etc
PUTIN
fixed russians completely destroyed economy.
fixed georgia in 3 days.
fixed chechnya.
no debt.
fixed birth rate by giving money for second child to every family.
imprisoned many criminals, no matter if they are jews or not.
didnt kick out the 6000 german cooperations for their politicians being cia-ruled sluts.
did not re-start any proxywars in afganistan and cuba.
dont play along with zionist self enslavery agenda.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSOOCos6Es4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2M5l__vCwo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P1q3IDjBaI
pronounced glow n ass
Don't look now but here come the Spetsnaz.
Putin has sent the feared Spetsnaz special forces into Syria to bail out Assad
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/putin-sent-feared-spetsnaz-speci...
Me thinks some CIA/MI6 agents are shitting bricks right now. Can you imagine the scandal if the Russian's capture American and/or British agents helping ISIS or Al-Qaeda?
Basically, America just admitted they're not interested in defeating ISIS.
http://news.antiwar.com/2015/10/04/us-plans-to-escalate-syrian-airstrike...
Their aim is to deny Russia the ability to blow away ISIS by keeping their planes in the air above ISIS locations. The MIC shows once again the they've gone full retard.
That would not be a very wise decision. The Russians will remove any overt obstacle to its mission - even if it is an American plane.
Top gun, take a picture of US aircraft guarding ISIS and put that out globally would kind of piss off the rest of the world population when all government schills are telling us ISIS are terrorists.
Even the MSM would have a hard sell on that one.
GPS = Go Pound Sand
During a world war as their probably the first taken out.
Maybe that is what the secretive mini Shuttles are for? Sow the skies with mini GPS sats.
WW3 will not long be highly dependent on GPS guided precision weapons. You don't need a GPS to deliver nukes.
Deadly Illusions: (Russian) Holographic Missiles and Laser Camouflage Coming Soon
Despite the opinion of your 'everyiday moron'... Russia is the good guy in all this.
They are at least actually KILLING ISIS. Which is creating nothing but misery.
So you're afraid... Good, I am a little when looking at this, because yes it is dangerous but it is a good cause.
However, I draw comfort now that the pro establishment working class, can huff, and puff. But the good guys have the upper hand. Putin has the power here, the US/ G5 does not, and even if he WAS the bad guy, he has not need ot relinquish one wit of power due to your moronic, mainstream media brainwashed, and highly incorrect moralising.
Specnaz bitchez
Recently India & UK had joint Air exercise
India with mostly Russian aircrafts scored 18 - 0 with UK
India 18
India is a big purchaser of Russian aircraft. They have a lot of MiG 29s, a single seat twin-engine fighter slightly smaller than our F-15 with not as good bells and whistles but probably better maneuverability.
USSANS can go back to sleep. Pentacon Kill Industries (our last "industry") never ever fights real armies even for the chosen racers in apartheid, occupied Palestine that own US. Flip-flop wearing peasants, sneaker sporting sand-dwelling pedophiles and Third World jungle bunnies, perhaps (and look at the results) BUT a real army....the RUSSIANS??? Get serious. It is all over now barring the mega sewer line rupture tsunami as the Ponzi crapper in the Potemkin Village of our death "economy" implodes.
Roll up, roll up buy your SU-24M a fine piece of engineering for any nation looking to acquire military aircraft. We can also equip it with various weapons and if you don't believe it you can YOU tube the clips.
Could almost be a military EXPO.
Got to admit the T34 fucked over the panzer and did not freeze in winter. Beast of a machine and the AK47 sure performed well in Vietnam against the M16 so you know some stuff they produce is good.
So time for some military sales to earn revenue seeing as those in wall street manipulate the oil / gold prices. Well Mr Banker try an manipulate the cost of an SU-24M why don't ya there are no derivatives okay.
Was watching the NBC evening news the other night and the useless reporter said that Russia had no smart precision bombs in their arsenal. That all the bombs used in Syria were unguided dirty bombs. Of course this is all propaganda and lies.
I am seeing precision smart missiles in the don't fuck with Russia video below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6gMGBYSZFM&index=41&list=FLhxqwnacwtI22...
Everything about your western terrorist reality is a lie. Nothing new, just needs to be destroyed.
US hardware? OMFG US could not even beat Iraqis w/o using Uranium loads from the sky
Why would the US even want to TRY and put a no fly zone over ISIS terrority? Not enough people beheaded, not enough Syrian archaelogical sites blown up, not enough money made off the bootleg oil sales? WTF?
Thge US can't put up a no fly zone over Syria. Russia would veto that bullshit at the UN security council. The official government of Syria has asked for Russia's assistance. That's a laughable comment.