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Paul Craig Roberts On The MH-17 Report: "Only An Idiot Would Believe It"
Submitted by Paul Craig Roberts,
When I read that the report on the downing of the Malaysian airliner over Ukraine was being
put in the hands of the Dutch, I knew that there would be no investigation and no attention to the facts.
And there wasn’t.
I did not intend to write about the report, because Washington’s propaganda has already succeeded, at least in the Western world, in its purpose of laying the blame on Russia. However, the misrepresentation of the Dutch report by Western media, such as NPR, is so outrageous as to make the media the story and not the report.
For example, I just heard NPR’s Moscow correspondent, Corey Flintoff, say that the missile that hit the airliner was fired by Ukrainian separatists who lack the technical ability to operate the system. Therefore, the missile had to have been fired by a Russian.
There is nothing in the Dutch report whatsoever that leads to this conclusion. Flintoff either is incompetent or lying or he is expressing his view and not the report’s conclusion.
The only conclusion that the report reaches is one that we already knew: if a Buk missile brought down the airliner, it was a Russian-made missile. The Dutch report does not say who fired it.
Indeed, the report places no blame on Russia, but it does place blame on Ukraine for not closing the airspace over the war area. Attorneys have stated in response to the report that families of those killed and the Malaysian airline itself are likely to file lawsuits against Ukraine for negligence.
Of course, there was nothing of this in Flintoff’s report.
As I wrote at the time of the airliner’s destruction, the Western media already had “the-Russians-did-it” story ready the moment the airliner was reported to be shot down. This story was very useful to Washington in hardening its European vassal states into sanctions against Russia, as there was some dissent. What Washington has never explained and the Western media has never asked is: What motive did separatists and Russia have to shoot down a Malaysian airliner?
None whatsoever. The Russian government would never allow such a thing. Putin would have immediately strung up those responsible.
Washington’s story makes no sense whatsoever. Only an idiot could believe it.
What motive did Washington have? Many. The demonization of Russia made it impossible for European governments to resist or abandon the economic sanctions that Washington is using to break economic and political relationships between Europe and Russia.
The Russian manufacturer of the Buk missile has proven that if a Buk missile was used, it was an old version that exists only in the Ukraine military. For some years the Russian military has been equipped with a replacement version that has a different signature in its destructive impact. The damage to the Malaysian airliner is inconsistent with the destructive force of the Buk missile in Russian service. The reports were given to the Dutch, but no effort was made to replicate and verify the validity of the tests conducted by the manufacturer of the missile. Indeed, the Dutch report does not even consider whether the airliner was downed by Ukrainian fighter jets. The report is as useless as the 9/11 Commission’s report.
Don’t expect any acknowledgement of this by the Western media, a collection of people who lie for a living.
The reason that the West has no future is that the West has no media, only propagandists for government and corporate agendas and apologists for their crimes. Every day the bought-and-paid-for-media sustains The Matrix that makes Western peoples politically impotent.
The Western media has no independence. An editor of a major German newspaper has written a book, a best-seller published in Germany, in which he states that not only he himself served the CIA as a reliable purveyor of Washington’s lies, but that every significant journalist in Europe does so also.
Obviously, his book has not been translated and published in America.
NPR, like all of Western media, has lost its integrity. NPR claims to be reader-supported. In fact, it is supported by corporations. Pay attention to the ads: “NPR is supported by xyz corporation working to sell you this or that product or service.”
The George W. Bush regime destroyed NPR by appointing two Republican female ideologues to oversee NPR’s public function. The two Republicans succeeded in making job security, not reporting integrity, the motive of NPR journalists.
As a person who worked with President Reagan to end the Cold War and associated nuclear threat, I am dismayed that the Western media has failed life on earth by resurrecting the prospect of nuclear armageddon.
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PCR has studied the issue in some detail, and he is merely stating the obvious. What part of his arguments don't you understand?
My comment was more general in nature. ZH gives this crank a frequent platform, and I’m trying to understand why. Again, what exactly is his expertise?
He is not claiming expertise, per se. He asks good questions.
He's not claiming expertise... Hmm...Really? Have you read*any*of his work?
Such horseshit...
This guy Roberts is trying to tell everybody EXACTLY what happened down to the planning points on scenario after scenario. Here let me give you the cliff notes. "America did it because I'm telling we they did"
The guy is a shrill voice in the wind. He's seriously ass hurt over something (probably passed over for a promotion or something so important) and now it's his work to talk endless unsubstantiated shit as if it were cough cough factual...
What's your opinion, State Department bot? I am interested.
PCR is an old man that wants to tell the truth, because he is an old man.
It is what old men do when they know they won't live forever.
The truth comes out...
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Well when is he going to start telling the truth then?
Its my truth, obviously not yours.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Craig_Roberts
He served for one year as an Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy in the Reagan administration. He is a former editor and columnist for the Wall Street Journal, Business Week, and Scripps Howard News Service. During the 21st century, Roberts has frequently published in Counterpunch, writing extensively about the effects of the Bush (and later Obama) administrations related to the War on Terror, which he says have destroyed the U.S. Constitution’s protections of Americans' civil liberties, such as habeas corpus and due process. He has taken positions different from former Republican allies, opposing the War on Drugs and the War on Terror, and criticizing Israel’s policies and actions against the Palestinians.
State Department reject is more like it. The guy is so incredibly ass hurt that he has no reality drifting between his ears. For example.
"The Charlie Hebdo story simply doesn’t wash. If you believe it, you are no match for a Muslim."
Hmm... No match for a Muslim meaning what? Are Muslims now some sort of superior race/religion/thingy? What a crock of unadulterated shit.
I'll bet serious ching he got passed over for an Ambasadorship or jilted by some DC guy and he went all America stupid. There is a sreal story here as to why he is sooooooo clouded in his concept of reality. He should tell it...
"
Observe here a phenomenon of rarity: State Department bot tells honest self assessment. The curator now to send for reprogramming...
"He's seriously ass hurt over something (probably passed over for a promotion or something so important)"
So, we should reject PCR's "horseshit" but accept yours as to what his motivations are?
I am ALWAYS nice in ZH forum....but I am going to make an exception and tell you to shut the fuck up...thx....
Would you rather hear more lies from NPR, God forbid Americans actually have to think for themselves...
Even if the plane was shot down by the Russians, which it obviously it was not, would the downing of a plane be enough justification for inacting sanctions, which are an act of war, against a nuclear super power which could potentially kick off world war III and cause the death of damn near everyone? It's especially ironic considering that our side has been knocking planes out of the sky, both large and small, for a hobby for at least 50 years.
The peace nic party's warmongering is the biggest irony of all.
"What motive did separatists and Russia have to shoot down a Malaysian airliner?..." - In the days before MH17, several Ukrainian military jets were shot down. How about "they" launched at anything that was airborn?
"...None whatsoever. The Russian government would never allow such a thing. Putin would have immediately strung up those responsible." - I have no doubt those who launched the missile have ben strung up within hours of the incident. KGB does not leave "lose ensd"
"The Western media has no independence. "- Sure, it's Russian media that's independent and impartial.
"The Russian manufacturer of the Buk missile has proven" what else would you expect a russian governement-owned company to prove? OJ Simpson's defense "proved" that he was not guilty!
OJ. wasn't guilty, the jury said so, that is why we have 'Evidence', to punish the guilty and free the innocent! You wern't on the jury, so you didn't hear the evidence! don't let your emotions cloud your judgment!
But OJ WAS found guilty in civil court.
Great comparison.
OJ = "It wasn't me I'm not guilty!"
Putin = "It wasn't me I'm not guilty!"
Couldn't have come up with a better comparison myself. Thanks for that!
If you're not clear, then, sorry, but except fuckhead someone else you difficult to call.
Clear?
Clear what?
That made about as much sense as your high school yearbook picture you've got connected to your ID...
He said it would be difficult to call you anything other than a fuckhead.
Well, an Idiocracy is populated by a majority of idiots...
NPR is subsidized by the government and huge contributions from such entities as Citibank, Alliance for Climate Protection, Universal Pictures, Warner Home Video, 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment , MGM, Paramount Pictures, ABC, U.S. Bank, Lionsgate Entertainment Corporation, WalMart and McDonald’s to Caterpillar and Hyatt Corp….
NPR is America’s closest thing to Pravda; it can carry the Establishment message. And if the Establishment needs to have Russia accused, guess who’s willing?
Reports 12Bytes.org:
“As they say, ‘follow the money,’ and researching the NPR money trail leads to some interesting places”:
NPR: “We never forget who we’re working for” …
“The sponsor lists, as provided by NPR, are full of high-profile, multi-national corporations and other powerful and influential entities….
“In the same document in the FY08 INSTITUTIONAL & CORPORATE FOUNDATIONS & PUBLIC SECTOR GRANTS section, we find (edited list, does not include all sponsors):
$500,000 – $1 million
$250,000 – $499,999
$100,000 – $249,000
The (*) indicates a multi-year grant….
“From an article titled The Spirit of Tom Paine by Stephen Lendman we read (2007):
http://12bytes.org/articles/exposed/npr-national-public-radio-or-national-propaganda-radio
NOTE: Klose headed NPR from 1998 to September 2008 when he was named President Emeritus. Current NPR CEO as of July 1, 2014 is Karl Klose who served as the chair of the Southern California ACLU for 15 years. Mohn has contributed to the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, Gephardt for President, Gore 2000, John Kerry for President, McCain 2000, Obama Victory Fund 2012, and the Progressive Patriots Fund[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarl_Mohn
NPR, pure unadlterated communism.
Oh, I think you left out the Rockefellers as big contributers....
and a correction on the current CEO: it should read Jarl Mohn, not Karl Klose. Communism? At the very least, the Bolsheviks are in charge.
Droogs,
If we all agree that we are at war (just fucking look around) and the first casualty of war is truth (just read the propaganda)...then why the outrage?
Why would we expect the truth, or access to secrets?
Why would we even listen to the media whores and political blow jobs insulting our intelligence each day?
Do we feel like we are going to make a difference if we are "allowed" to bitch and moan on ZH?, or blog like PCR does?
Minus the obvious "government harassnicks" here, I think we all agree that something more than blog bitching is due. Thoughtful insight, joking, and general lameness does not mean shit to these fuckers.
They will continue to fuck you and your families you until you fuck them and their families.
Word bitches.
MH17: From Syria To Ukraine, When Lying Catches Up
http://thenewsdoctors.com/mh17-from-syria-to-ukraine-when-lying-catches-up/
The moral from The Boy Who Cried Wolf: “Even when liars tell the truth, they are never believed. The liar will lie once, twice, and then perish when he tells the truth.”
Your article by Ulson Gunnar’s is excellent and his conclusion as a New York-based geopolitical analyst and writer especially for the online magazine “New Eastern Outlook bears repeating:
“What is more likely to play out later this month, is that the exhausted credibility of the US and its partners both politically and across the media, will fail to sway public opinion or the facts on the ground in Ukraine in any shape, form or way regardless of the conclusions of the MH17 DSB and JIT investigations. Russia has more than adequately balanced the long-standing monopoly the West has held over the global media space, and will be more than capable of defending itself in that space regardless of the outcome of the investigation.
“And since the investigation itself has been so transparently manipulated by the Western media and Western politicians, it is likely the vast majority following this investigation will fail to be swayed by any spin placed on the published conclusions.
“We should remember the chemical weapons attack in Syria, where a UN report’s ambiguous conclusions were transformed into an indictment of guilt by the Western media. Even then, that indictment was brushed aside by the vast majority in the public who had long-since lost their faith in the word of the West. Since then, the lies regarding Syria have reached an unprecedented crescendo with Western credibility at an all time low. This absence of credibility in Syria will likely taint whatever efforts the West makes to spin the MH17 report, and attempts to spin the MH17 report will only expand this void of credibility that has opened up in the heart of the Western World.”
The MSM like the US government serves only the Oligarchs.
Don't expect a piddling little reporter like Flintoff to do anything than suck his mater's and masters dick.
Though Flintoff might watch his back lest he get a machette rammed up his arse one evening. These sort of things happen to 'plants'.
This is all we really have to know about the findings of the Dutch report.
On the advice of the CIA, Ukraine did not close the airspace over the fighting in Donbas when it broke out in April 2014 because it provided an essential framework for a 'false flag' scheme to be used later on if the Ukrainian military were unsuccessful in punishing the separatist rebels.
There is no doubt that the USA/CIA has become "False Flag" happy in the 21st century.
There are parallels in MH-17 and KAL007 downings, the flight divergence, the timing and the aftermath.
The US is FULL of Idiots. The Netherlands is a vassal of US/NATO. What, exactly did people think would be the results of this “inquiry” (is anyone thinking?- not a rhetorical question)? The Pentagon had satellites over this region and knows what objects were in the air at the time of the MH17 crash. Not surprisingly, the US has not released any satellite data from this period. I smell a rat.
The US is FULL of Idiots. The Netherlands is a vassal of US/NATO. What, exactly did people think would be the results of this “inquiry” (is anyone thinking?- not a rhetorical question)? The Pentagon had satellites over this region and knows what objects were in the air at the time of the MH17 crash. Not surprisingly, the US has not released any satellite data from this period. I smell a rat.
The US is FULL of Idiots. The Netherlands is a vassal of US/NATO. What, exactly did people think would be the results of this “inquiry” (is anyone thinking?- not a rhetorical question)? The Pentagon had satellites over this region and knows what objects were in the air at the time of the MH17 crash. Not surprisingly, the US has not released any satellite data from this period. I smell a rat.
you can say that again
There is a very long list of questionable or just plain idiotic decisions made by George W Bush ... but does this author expect to be taken seriously when he complains about Bush ruining NPR? Its been mocked as extremist liberal radio since before "W" was a child.
Everyone knew from the first reports that Obama decided to blame Putin, no matter what the facts turned out to be. That isn't new or news. The Obama regime had a press release all set after Benghazi (it was a YouTube video that 6 people in the world had seen, 5 of them in the White House). And the White House had their press release for MH-17 ready to go before the plane hit the ground. Nobel Peace prize winner murders by-standers while hunting for rabbits, I mean terrorists... Oh wait, wrong press release. Putin did it. Yeah, that's the ticket. Either Bush did it, or Putin did it, or else it was an evil YouTube video.
This is an amazing interiew with a young girl from Moscow: "What does she think about the Russian President?" I find it fascinating, because she is one of the so-called "Putin's children", i.e. the Russian generation, which grew up under Putin. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Xfgjf8b42M
Then why didn't she go to the Russian patriotic rally?
---
A state-run Russian television channel appears to have been caught dramatically inflating the number of participants in a "patriotic" flash mob.
"It looks like the media were paid," he concluded, "but there was no money left for the crowd scene."
Bloggers posted images showing that the Moscow rally on October 11, aimed at forming "I Am A Patriot" in human letters, only gathered enough people for a single character.
"The event was interesting in the sense that organizers decided to gather passersby who cared instead of busing in people," he wrote, referring to a scheme authorities are commonly accused of using to boost attendance at pro-government rallies. "Unfortunately, passersby showed no interest in the patriotic event and flatly refused to participate."
Eisenhower said war is man's greatest folly and those who pursue it or fail to prevent it are a black mark on all of humanity.
Eisenhower knew war and the horror of D-Day. Our current crop of warriors seem to think the death of children and other non-combatants is the equivalent of points in a video game. I do not believe they are trying to prevent war. They seem to be looking for a reason to start one.
I still recall when that numbnuts GWB proudly told some reporter "I'm a war president." He wore that signature vapid look of an imbecile. Must've been something strutting around the White House boasting about his war games and his missions accomplished. Like Obama saying he is good at killing people. Pinnacle of success for a psychopath.
"Facts be damned. We need another Cold War. The Russians did it." - MIC
investigation by NATO country blames Russia.
Investigation by Russia blames West.
My own opinion is that the little green men in Donetsk were getting pretty trigger happy with their new Russian-supplied toys and racking up quite a score on Ukrainian fighter jets, so Kiev ATC vectored a civilian liner over to see about maybe causing an international incident.
No real heroes in the drama. The Ukrainians put a civilian air liner in harm's way and the Russian puppets harmed it because they didn't bother to check its transponder signal-- or assumed it was fake. Regardless, they shot it down just like the crew of the USS Vincennes and the Soviet Russians who torched KAL 007.
Where's Dutch Boy hiding ? There's the Russian troops aiding the separatists, there's the separatists and the Ukrainians .... they're all Russian .... the Russians have a track record of shooting down civilian airliners ?
Appears he hides in your avatar, behind you standing.
That's a good question. Where is Alfred?
Ukies have a rcord of shooting down airliners also;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812
Done it once, do it again...
Our American buddies are good at it too;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
You gotta know wiki is the truth,
Ya
KAL 007 should be included to balance the scales a little bit.
I think he got the hook (again).
I was checking on a thread on Monday and noted that his original posts were all gone-- taking my replies down with him.
But he'll be easy to spot when he reincarnates, atheist or not.
Corey Flintoff is of Russian-Jewish descent.
I read PCR headline to damn the Dutch only to then get into NPR's bullshit. Why are the Dutch linked to NPR like 2 peas in a pod? It was the Russians who were absolutely sure a Ukrainian SU 25 fired a missile to down the plane complete with photoshopped pictures of the attack angle. Most aircraft missiles of 6 kg warhead size go after the heat of the engines. The cockpit was blown to kingdon come. I saw pictures of the co-pilot still strapped in his seat with chunky-size wounds all over his body. Yes, something bigger hit it.
Be advised Russia wasn't sending the very latest of ots military hardware to the separatists. If I had free reign to search Russian weapons bunkers I am sure I could find the older BUK models still in storage for use.
YES, commercial aircraft should not have flown over a combat zone. Are they still flying over it now to save fuel?
PCR is off his meds. He lost me as a reader.
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Damn son.. A voice of reason? Welcome to the belly of the beast.
Anywho. PCR (sounds like a bad drug cocktail) has lost his shit eight ways from Sunday. His latest hobby is funny hugging Muslims because they are apparently the superior race/religion/thingy...
An air traffic controller in Kiev tweeted live at the time about an Ukrainian air force attacking MH17. The plane was shot in the right wing with an air to air missile that failed to bring it down. The air liner turned around to find a place to land,as seen on Russian air traffic control radar, but was finished off with 30 mm cannon fire with shots going into and out of both sides of the cock pit. Also, notice chaff, released by the fleeing Ukrainian aircraft, falling at the crash site and numerous witnesses of fighter aircraft. The Ukrainian air traffic control recordings were seized by Ukrainian security people about ten minutes after the crash according to the live tweets of that Spanish air traffic controller in Kiev who was promptly disappeared along with his familly.
Here's a crazy idea (sarc):
Maybe if an illegal coup hadn't been conducted in Kiev, leading to the installation of a bunch of extremists who openly called for genocide of Ukrainian citizens (ethnically Russian) in the east of the country, then maybe ethnically Russian members of the Ukrainian army and navy would not have mutinied to form a rebel army or defected to Russia, taking their hardware (including BUKs with them).
Maybe if the psychos in Kiev hadn't decided to repeatedly bomb, shell and shoot their own people in Donbass then rebels would not have moved BUKs into position for the defensive take down of SU25 Frogfoots that were bombing the area.
Maybe if MH17 hadn't been vectored by ATC into a warzone where no fewer than 16 military aircraft had already been shot down by whilst conducting offensive sorties.
Then maybe, just maybe, those poor people would be alive today.
Oh wait, silly me, the MSM says it's 100% the Ruskies fault so nevermind.
Oh no!
I did the Alfred thing and double, treble clicked.
You can cover up your faux pas by screaming epithets at everyone on the thread.
They'll just assume it's him and skip over the avatar completely.
Maybe
Dont fly over war zones, dont fly muslim pilots
"The George W. Bush regime destroyed NPR by appointing two Republican female ideologues to oversee NPR’s public function. The two Republicans succeeded in making job security, not reporting integrity, the motive of NPR journalists."
I remember it happening. Over a period of a year it completely changed, Early on in Bush II's reign
Isn't NPR almost wholly funded by McDonalds? I seem to remember them getting a billion or so from the founder when he died.
Soon after the press conference and the publication of the report I read Western media (BI and others) quoting AFP that the Dutch claim that the missile was fired from rebel held territory. That was NOT said during the conference nor was it in the report. It only says that the missile was fired from within a 320km2 area in Eastern Ukraine. It was also not their job to find the 'who done it'. But then the head of the Dutch Safety Board after the conference said to reporters that the missile was fired from rebel held territory. Now, why would he do that? Why was this 'fact' not presented during the conference?
Now, why would he do that?
Its obvious, thats how SPIN works. Probably he will deny that he ever said it if someone dares to ask him in front of cameras.
MH17 was given clearance by west (America & Europe) to fly in war zone.
It was shot down by Ukraine owned BUK missile
The assertion that an older model BUK system not used currently by Russia on it's own is not evidence that the Ukraine military fired the missile that brought down MH17.
The rebels could have just as easily had that system from the Ukrainian military stock on their territory.
What is more telling is withholding data from the flight recorder, air traffic communications and the unwillingness to cooperate and include evidence from the Russian side in the Dutch report. The report was intended to draw politically expedient conclusions and be used as a propaganda tool from the beginning.
I’m quite certain all my readers have already heard plenty about the Dutch Safety Board’s investigation into the downing of MH17. If you haven’t read it yet, here’s a summary, and if you want to slog through the whole thing, look here. As if on cue, as tends to be the case every time some new evidence from the investigation leaked out in the past, Russia turned the bullshit up to 11 and pre-empted the release of the DBS report with another press conference held by Buk Surface-to-Air missile manufacturer Almaz-Antey. Once again, previous Russian stories were contradicted, but the fun didn’t stop yesterday. Shortly before I began writing this, the head of Russia’s aviation service was throwing out all kinds of accusations and claims, including some that contradicted yesterday’s Almaz-Antey claims. This wasn’t the first time. In other words, this satirical story is pretty close to the truth.
Some Western journalists act perplexed at this incredibly guilty behavior, particularly in light of the fact that the DSB report didn’t even attribute blame for firing the Buk and it also said that Ukraine should have closed the air space in the region (Gee, guess what part of the report Team Russia will deem reliable!). Some of us aren’t surprised at all. Personally speaking, I liken this to the recent behavior of the conservative propaganda machine back in the US when they float rumors or mock scandals about illegal immigrants committing voter fraud or Obama not being a natural born citizen. Nobody who puts these theories out there actually plans to act on them. Sure, some politicians will promote voter ID laws, but this is just about disenfranchising poor people. The real reason for these conspiracy theories is that it reassures Republicans that when they lose elections, it’s only because the other side cheated, and therefore the winning party is illegitimate.
Same thing is going on here. Russia’s foreign ministry claims that the Dutch board didn’t consider facts from “Russian experts,” without naming the experts or talking about which facts they are referring to, no doubt because the folks at the MFA can’t be bothered to keep up on the latest alternative scenario. These public statements and the media coverage they get in Russia’s domestic press is enough to reassure Putin’s base that the whole thing was unfair, and the whole world is part of a massive conspiracy against Russia.
It’s a shame though, because what Russia is doing is spitting on the graves of the victims. Then again, this is a government that spits on the graves of 25 million Soviet citizens, many of them Russian, so I guess I shouldn’t expect more sympathy for foreigners flying out of “Gayropa.” But I digress, I wanted to compare the MH17 to another recent incident, one which will suddenly have all of Team Russia nodding their heads along with my text. I’m talking of course about the airstrike on a Doctors Without Borders hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan.
Now as an aside, while I post links about this, I’d just like to remind you how “the mainstream media” like CNN would never report something like this. Okay maybe they would, but they wouldn’t air allegations that it was a war crime. Okay, maybe CNN would do that, but I bet Fox news wouldn’t! Oh…wait…no. But I keep hearing from the pro-Kremlin side that state-run outlets like RT are no different from CNN and Fox. I guess this means that we should soon expect CNN and Fox to start personally attacking journalists and airing “experts” who will insist that the Taliban, Doctors Without Borders, or literally anybody but the US forces were responsible for the deadly airstrike. I mean it’s all the same, right?
Okay enough of that. The fact is that I am as disgusted by this Kunduz attack as I was about MH17. I could start pointing out how in the case of the former, the gunner on the AC-130 could at least see what he was shooting at, whereas a Buk operator is looking at blips on a screen. I’m not going to get into detail there, however, because I don’t want some Team Russia fanatic to get overexcited, whip his dick out, and start beating it right there in his office. Part of my anger is due to the fact that it’s 2015 and we’re still involved in Afghanistan, as though we’re going to somehow get some kind of victory out of this. Another part of me is angry at the lying that took place afterward. When this story broke, I have no doubt that there were people all across America who wanted to see justice be done, because this incident is a stain on the country’s flag (some Team Russia folks might need to change their pants now). In Russia, by contrast, 3% of people believe the version of MH17 that the Western world does.
With the myriad of alternative, contradictory stories that have circulated, sometimes within 24 hours of each other, it’s no wonder that these people can’t really tell you what they think actually happened. They only know it wasn’t the rebels, and it wasn’t Russia’s fault. In other words they know exactly what the Kremlin wants them to know. When the White House and Pentagon change their story or squirm in front of cameras, Americans sense bullshit and get angrier. Russians just throw up their hands and say: “Who knows what’s true? Everyone lies! We lie, they lie!” That’s the Russia Putin’s regime has built.
Before anyone balks about the comparison of MH17 to Kunduz let me point something out. Even in spite of the Pentagon’s failed attempts to spin the events, and in spite of the White House’s reluctance to support an international, independent tribunal, the administration has accepted the blame for these deaths on behalf of the United States. And of course, they admit the presence of US forces rather than pretend that only the Afghan national army is doing the fighting. They are not crying information war and claiming that the Taliban did it, or that the hospital patients and staff did it as a “provocation.” If there is an independent investigation, don’t expect its progress to be met with periodic White House press conferences featuring new experts that will “prove” alternative theories absolving the US military of blame.
Just another example of how when it comes to political regimes, the slightest difference can have a big impact on behavior. Whatever happens, however, I think it’s clear that the victims of Kunduz will get justice long before the families of the victims of MH17 ever will.
They are not crying information war and claiming that the Taliban did it
Right, THEY just tell them you better shut up or we bomb another of your hospitals.
Well done, quoting the manual, you earned today important potato, rejoice rogue earnings.
Two things stick out for me when scanning over the full crash report:
1. There is no picture shown or mention made of some holes in the cockpit outer skin having its edges bent to the outside.
But I have clearly seen such on the pictures circluated in the internet. So how would a BUK cause impact holes with outward bent edges, side by side with ones that have inward bent edges?
2. The full report on page 182 lists an Ukrainian SU-25 had been shot down on 7/16/14 at an altitude of 8250m - that's funny as many sources still claim the service ceiling of a SU-25 is 7000m?
To me the most important evidence for Western involvement is the fact that our new German Fuhrer refused to make the cabin voice recorder available to the members of the German parliament and declared it classified!!!
Not even Roberts seems to be aware of this blatant attempt to cover up US/Kiev involvement and the MSM wont ask questions anyway.
I can see many people tend to idealize Russians and Putin. Please read "The Red Notice" by Bill Brouder, who lived in Russia for 20 years and spent many years in the end figting Putin's mafia which resulted in Magnitsky Law. They are just as bandits and racketeers just like US/UK neocons. It's easier to live believing there are good guys and bad guys, but the reality is there are only bad guys in power. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. This country is run by tugs, completely. Ukraine's Yanukovich, despite being an elected president (elected by pro-Russian regions who could actually stick with one agenda, unlike other regions) was a convicted criminal and run country as a criminal gang. Saw it with my own eyes. So there was a real protest, real movement against and its a joy he's gone. There was some US help, some provocations and false flags, obviously. Same shit with Assad. A bloody dictator, just like Saddam, so it would be great to see him gone. But not the way US is doing by destroying the whole region and building up radical movements. This is a shit storm. There are no good guys. All of them are very bad.
Malaysian could be shot down by both Russian covert operatives by mistake, or as a false flag by CIA covert operations, however this is so much harder to do, and Occams Razor principle tells us to stick with easier and more probable explanation. Besides, there is only a small part of Russian Army that has been modernized, use to capture Crimea, the rest is at the same level as in 1950-ies. I can easily belive in incompetence, malfunction, bad communications. Evil plan? Not really.
Craft healthier masturbation.
There is no advantage or benefit whatsoever for Russia, East Ukraine rebels to shoot down an airliner.
Nor is it likely that a missile operator would mistake a commercial airliner for a foe, especially if it were operated by an experience Russian. Yet we find the missile is not of the type Russia still uses, thus not one supplied by Russia to rebels.
In fact shooting down an airliner would be the very last thing Ukraine rebels would want.
What find however is a Commercial Airliner actually herded into a 'kill zone' by Ukrainian airtraffic ontrol, then shot down by an old style missile, only in the possession of the Urkaine army.
And this should surprise nobody. False flag events are now common knowledge and often used by a number of governments and their intelligence agencies. The gas bombing in Syria, Turkey who admit in a secret tape to false flag events in Syria.
False Flag events are now common place. And what better way to ramp up support for military aid and assistance to the Ukraine govt than to make it look as though Rebels shot down hundreds of foreign civilians.
The Urkaine govt we now know was installed by the USA, causing a rebellioin against the existing elected govt.
If you read all the information posted here at ZH, you would know there is very little way to properly indentify a target if not a 3 vehicles complex is used, which would be highly unprobable as a deployment. Ok they have said no old Buks in Russian Army. Maybe true. But we don't say it was hit by Russian Army. If they would pass a weapon to rebels along with few operators they would prefer to pass older equipment that cannot be identified with russians, and as an added bonus it is still in use in Ukraine. No advantage to shoot a passenger plane, true, but nobody says it was a plan. They were aiming for military transports that are of a similar size, and they shot down few of them before that.
NPR: Nimcompooporial Propaganda Radio.
I think it is impossible for the general public to know the truth of what happened with the airliner.
What I do know is that the author's immediate conclusion about the entire scenario simply because the Dutch were doing the investigation makes me discount everything this author might say. Surely the last person to lead an unbiased investigation would be PCR.
And I don't really care; both sides have blood on their hands. What I wish is that both Russia and the US would leave the good Ukrainian people alone.
I listen to NPR everyday for no other reason but to hear the latest propaganda from the U.S. government and to get a good morning laugh.
The only two things you are guaranteed on NPR is a daily story on gay rights and a puff piece on how well the U.S. economy is doing.
It is so sad to see how far Amerika has fallen.
The report fails to explain how the MH-17 airliner acquired a lot of 30mm round holes in its fuselage, especially around the cockpit area. This is not speculation as photos taken by a German investigator ex-pilot clearly show them. They were made by a 30mm cannon which is standard armament on the Ukraine air force SU fighter planes.
The Dutch investigators were never in control of this investigation and have simply rolled over.
British PM Cameron took control of the black boxes and shipped them to Farnborough for analysis. Nothing has been heard of them since.
This is one big conspiracy and cover-up to protect the Western puppet Poroshenko who's busy destroying Ukraine and its economy.
Missiles are guided and have not a ballistic trajectory but a controled one. It is thus impossble to know the exact shooting point.
The dutch report is only an aircraft safety report. Their goal is not to find a culprit but to make recommandation for such an accident not to repeat. So establishing that a missile destroy the aircraft is sufficient for them to be sure the accident has no other explanation. Thus, their only recommandation is not to fly over a war zone. And the blame is effectively for the ukrainian governement that pretended doing police operation while conductive military operations with planes and artillery over the zone.
The dutch report is only an aircraft safety report. Their goal is not to find a culprit but to make recommandation for such an accident not to repeat. So establishing that a missile destroy the aircraft is sufficient for them to be sure the accident has no other explanation. Thus, their only recommandation is not to fly over a war zone. And the blame is effectively for the ukrainian governement that pretended doing police operation while conductive military operations with planes and artillery over the zone.
Their goal was to obscure the truth.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fe4_1415987530