Oregon Standoff: A Terrible Plan That We Might Be Stuck With
Submitted by Brandon Smith via Alt-Market.com,
Well, there is whole host of things wrong with this situation, which is why I never supported or endorsed "Operation Hammond Freedom" to begin with. There is a lot of misinformation out there at this time on the debacle in Oregon, and certain alternative media outlets seem to be conveniently overlooking particular facts. I suspect that some people in the movement simply want to "kick it off" (a second American revolution), and they don't care if the circumstances of that kick-off are favorable or terrible (I realize "favorable" is relative, but starting this fight from a much stronger position is more than possible). This attitude was prevalent among some at Bundy Ranch, as certain groups refused to dig in positions for a real fight in the hopes that they would be "martyred" for the cause. This, in case you were wondering, is idiotic.
Oath Keepers including founder Stewart Rhodes was the only organization to predict how Ammon Bundy's vague calls for action on the part of the Hammond Family would actually play out. They received a lot of ignorant attacks in response, and yet, they were absolutely right.
Ammon, apparently trying to recreate what cannot be recreated, is looking for another Bundy Ranch stand-off. First, I would point out that such events can't be artificially fabricated. They have to happen in an organic way. Whenever a group of people attempt to engineer a revolutionary moment, even if their underlying motivations are righteous, it usually ends up kicking them in the ass (Fort Sumter is a good example). Ammon's wingmen appear to be Blaine Cooper aka Stanley Blaine Hicks (a convicted felon), and Ryan Payne (who claimed falsely during the Bundy Ranch standoff that he was an Army Ranger and who worked diligently to cause divisions between involved parties on the ground). This was the first sign that nothing good was going to come from the Hammond protest.
I have watched extensive video from the event in Oregon and am privy to accounts from participants. From the information at my disposal, it would appear that Ammon and team did NOT make clear their intentions to occupy the federal wildlife refuge building except to a select few, inviting protesters to "take a hard stand" without revealing what this would entail until they were already in the middle of it all. OPSEC? No, I think not. Obviously the goal was to lure as many protesters to Oregon as possible to the event in the hopes that they would jump on board with the stand-off plan once they were more personally involved. Numerous protesters were rightly enraged once they discovered the ultimate motives behind the event.
The plan is basically this - use the Hammond family as a vehicle (yes, this is what is being done) even though they did not want any kind of standoff to result and specifically refused aid. Occupy federally owned buildings which have little to do with anything of importance and have no symbolic power as did Bundy Ranch. Elicit federal response. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Bundy Ranch had many positive elements going for it, which is why it ended the way it did. This standoff has none of the same elements. I suppose one could ask, though, why do I care?
It's true, these people have every right to make positively naive strategic errors and I don't have to participate directly if I don't like it. The problem, however, is that Ammon and friends have decided they want to be the "tip of the spear" (his words, not mine). I do not think they understand what this means, or they don't care. What it means is, even though I think the entire Oregon plan is ill conceived; literally the WORST possible way to launch a fight against federal corruption, if the federal government moves in a heavy handed manner to kill these people, I and many others will have to fight as well by default when a FAR better tactical and social position could have been achieved. My conscience simply will not allow the rationalization of the deaths of liberty minded people even if their stupidity brought about the circumstances. And frankly, that pisses me off.
As a student of asymmetrics, I understand that choosing the time, place and circumstances is 95% of the battle ahead against an advanced opponent. More organization is needed. More preparedness. More training. More public awareness. The Oregon standoff could steal away what little time we had left.
The Oregon standoff potentially forces the hand of the Liberty Movement, not the hand of corrupt government - the exact reverse of what should be happening.
Mike Vanderboegh has outlined similar thoughts expertly in this article. Everything he has written is exactly what was going through my own mind when I heard of the happenings in Oregon. Ammon Bundy and companions are not the tip of the spear. Not even close. What I do fear is that they are cannon fodder beckoning a nationwide government crackdown to which I and others will then be forced to personally respond to with equal f*cking measure. And all of this on the worst possible terms and at a very inconvenient time (executive actions on gun control mere weeks from now).
And here's the best part; those of us who remain critical of the clinically retarded maneuver being executed here are going to be called cowards and "keyboard warriors"; it's a given. We are all ready to fight for the future of this country, we have been training diligently for it and helping many others along the way. But, because we do not support two dimensional planning there are those that will say - "Now we find out who the real patriots are!"
Against stupid plan = coward against freedom and action. Just watch.
If the Feds use brutality to handle the Oregon conflict, it will indeed "kick-off". There wont be any way to stop it. Just don't get too excited, folks. This is no Lexington or Concord. I really don't know what to call it...
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Analyze, yes. But not over-analyse. Otherwise, it's called the 'MBA Syndrome': Paralysis by analysis.
Which applies not just to many MBA's, but to others as well. They use 'analysis' and 'studies' (any passive mode over an active mode) as a substitute for ANY kind of concrete action that involves inconvenience, risk and maybe even hardship. Such people use sophist prose, to hide their personal lack of physical and economic courage.
And I just posted this on that thread:
The Bundys have been railroaded by government provocateurs into this stupid showdown. They may have righteous intentions and moral standing, but what they are doing plays right into the government's hands, and the government gets to literally kill several birds with one stone if they take out this group of idiots: branding all militias as 'terrorists'; re-writing people's sympathetic opinions of what happened in the Bundy standoff last year; a chance for the government to double down on gun control; furthering their land grab policies; and potentially a spark that can be used to pickup dissidents and start a civil war resulting in martial law. This is the perfect setup, as far as the government is concerned.
All that will come from this is more tyranny, and a government given an excuse to do what it wants with impunity - that many sheeple are already supporting:
http://www.sott.net/article/309733-Disintegrating-society-Americans-once...
There is a time and place for acts of liberation, but this is not it.
This smacks of stupidity or false flag. Not sure which and either one is bad news for those that hate these tyrannical pricks
It may be both. For me, the most insane part of it all is that the Hammond family does NOT want these people to fight in their name. If the victims don't want help, then that should be the end of it. It is pretty hard to make a moral stand without the backing of those you are supposedly fighting for. Fighting for a cause is all well and good, but you can't win the hearts and minds of people and rally them to your cause if the actual victims don't want anything to do with you.
Re Greenskeeper:
The other groups are not going to activate based upon the actions of these idiots. If those who took the building do not leave before the feds organize they are in a no win situation. They get used for TPTB's agenda for some period of time (maybe weeks) and then they surrender with no shots or just a few shots - or they are efficiently killed.
The other groups are saying their tactics and choice of reason for the action is all foolish. They are also suspicious and mirror some of your comment.
The author is incorrect. This does not force the various groups to act.
When you're the last of anything, in this case ranchers, you either fight or go extinct.
As far being correct, they are correct in that the Federal government has no right controlling lands of counties and states, the Federal lands that they can push their statutory rules are limited to Federal possessions only. Harbors, arsenals, Washington DC, and military bases for the most part. The BLM and other Fed agencies have no control over a Common Law man, problem is that hardly anyone knows how to be a CL man and as a result they either create conflict, or they consent to the jurisdiction of these Fed agencies volunterially. So these Patriots either wind up dead or infront of a Government Court getting the gears.
Here's some audio lectures introducing Common law by Bill Thorton, Bill is getting results in court, and has a keen grasp of the Common Law in the US.
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/introduction/index.html
I they intend to fight, with guns, their tactics are foolish. If they do not intend to fight, their words, threats, taking of fed building and arms combined all at once can easily earn them the "terrorist act" tag in court.
If Blankone's against it, what ever it is, it must have some merit.
I think that he is a Law Enforcement Agent.
He is mining for intel above.
The other groups are not going to activate based upon the actions of these idiots. If those who took the building do not leave before the feds organize they are in a no win situation. They get used for TPTB's agenda for some period of time (maybe weeks) and then they surrender with no shots or just a few shots - or they are efficiently killed.
What "other groups" are you involved with?
Oh...You are not?
So you are Law Enforcement mining here for intel?
So long as you are on the level.
Personally I believe that Lone Wolf tactics are quite affective,
And I like teaching criminals Chemistry and Physics, you know?
That which make things explode??
Cage me and give me an army. Please.
They are certainly acting against the interests of gun owners and proponents of small government. They have been led by the nose by somebody. Who benefits??????
These people are easily manipulated. They come from a tranche of society with little education and financial success. Just look at all the misspelled signs they carry at demonstrations. Not exactly leadership material.
Here's your chance you useless fat fuck Americans to put you guns where you mouth is.
That method of suicide is not that good.
I like the Nuclear Option where we take all of you with us...much better.
Enjoy your Nuclear Winter.
Because if the Liberty Movement fails the USA will go to war in order to attempt to unite the Nation.
And that will escalate into a Nuclear War...which will ensure your death.
Brandon Smith: "The Oregon standoff potentially forces the hand of the Liberty Movement, not the hand of corrupt government - the exact reverse of what should be happening."
And God forbid that careerist publishers and for-fee speakers of the Liberty movement should do anything more than publish web articles or books, and risk their cozy Contrarian lifestyles.
/s
Smith trains community preparedness teams and does so with his identity open to the public. He also invented a suit that defeats FLIR imaging and gave the design to the public for free. What risks have you ever taken?
Yeah, that's all swell. But there is no denying that Smtih is a wait-it-out type. Just like that fraud Glenn Beck who crticised the Bundy's as "not the right people" to defend or make a stand with. Either the Principle involved matters to Liberty or it does not, period. People who have this pristine image of what a Liberty Patriot is forget the mixture of wealthy and poor that populated the ranks. To them there is never the right time, the right people, the right event. Sunshine Patriots is what Thomas Paine called them. At least admit that fact.
Smith aided the Bundy Ranch standoff. Waiting for a good plan is better than diving into a dumb plan.
1. I contributed $100* to their cause. What have YOU done, besides blog your 'concerns' and 'misgivings'?
2. My father and grandparents fought the NAZIS. The grandparents paid with their lives. Yours?
These are desperate people, taking desperate measures against Tyranny and gross injustice against paid Agents hiding behind legal tricks. They have physical and economic courage.
By contrast, all I see from naysayers to action by guys like Smith and some here, is avoiding physical or economic risk to themselves. They'd rather stick to ongoing ways to blog, publish, pay member fees, etc, but never any action with real risk and real consequences. Not even a Million People March on DC, or any state capital. Kent State students had more courage, than the anti-action (technically "ongoing action deferment") pussies. No tractors blocking traffic either, like the 'cowardly' French farmers do so often in Paris. If this kind of bleating becomes a substitute for ANY action, then it becomes the bleating of sheeple.
Smith might as well be the Controlled Opposition, making a nice living off the ad revenue on his 'protest' site. If that site were taken down, because he stuck his neck out too far... why, he'd have to get a new gig to pay the bills. "Where your treasure is, your heart is also", comes to mind.
* As posted yesterday: Sun, 01/03/2016 - 13:54 | 6991226 (page 6)
p.s. +1 to kralizec above, for a good counterpoint and the "sunshine patriots" quote.
1) Well then you haven't done jack shit compared to Smith, have you? Also, I'm not a "blogger".
2) Who cares what your grandparents did? I asked what you have done. You don't get a free pass just because your grandparents did something worthwhile. Are you on your way to Oregon right now to fight? Or do you prefer to throw people a $100 bill here and there to fight for you?
Supporting a dumb plan is dumb. I'm not sure how to simplify it down for you. Just because it is the only plan offered right now does not mean diving into it is a good idea. I don't know Smith personally, and I'm guessing neither do you. I don't know what his ad revenues are and I don't see it as relevant. What I do know is that he has been sticking his neck out for years. Far longer than the Bundy's. Training people and informing them. By your standard, Thomas Paine would have been considered a "sunshine patriot".
Once this hit the Huffington Post - I knew this was a trap for greater reasons... Gun Control? demonize constitutionalists? or ?
Gold, URANIUM + BLM / Governmenthttps://youtu.be/rpkm6iSd--c
So sorry to inconvenience you Greeenskeeper Carl.
But the problem here is that you do not care that the Hammonds are being imprisoned TWIVE...FOR THE SAME "CRIME" under two different laws. The Fifth Amendment supposedly acts to restrict this...AND APPARENTLY NOT.
Just where do you make your stand, Carl?
Even Brandon Smith is wrong about this.
The odds will never be in the favor of the Liberty Movement.
By each passong day those odds are depleted as mpre draconian legislation is passed to further restrict Human Rights.
THe odds become increasingly worse as the Government Agencies are MILITARIZED..with MILITARY WEAPONS...EVERYDAY,,as they seek ro restrict the caliber of weaponry that the publuc may have.
These are not just Law Enforcement Agencies, But why does Fish and Game need to have an armored division?
There will never be a more opportune time.
Maybe the Obama Justice Department timed their decision to put the Hammonds behind bars as a pretext to initiate Gun Control Laws?
Did that occur to you?
TT, Brandon is often wrong. Soon his wingmen, Runningman and IV will show up to say otherwise.
So instead of responding to my observations of what is going on above, you choose to hide behind Tall Tom's comment and call me out? If you have a beef with me, then respond to me and my opinions instead of this bullshit. Or will you just make your stupid comment and run away, never to answer my replies like you usually do?
I wrote above in two posts why I think this is not the time or the place to fight. Too many people are being led by their emotions and not logic. This is a set-up that can only end one way: in the favor of the government. There WILL be a time and a place, and soon - but this is NOT it.
The fascist Feds have swallowed up 100 ranchers.
The fascist Feds don't want anyone to be able to support themselves outside the gov or a fascist corporation.
This is UN Agenda 21, where the people are not allowed to tresspass on UN lands. This is going on in your own
town, unelected people advise the city council about how to build homes, where and services. Go look into it, it
will curl your hair.
I say ITS HAPPENING!
"As a student of asymmetrics, I understand that choosing the time, place and circumstances is 95% of the battle ahead against an advanced opponent. More organization is needed. More preparedness. More training. More public awareness." .....
And don't forget More blog time...must keep ad revenue comming in...I love these badasses of the blog...they all have a plan, just waiting for the right time to strike.
Well Pick up the fucking sword and lead us captain!
Oh boy, you just made Smith's point for him.
"And here's the best part; those of us who remain critical of the clinically retarded maneuver being executed here are going to be called cowards and "keyboard warriors"; it's a given. We are all ready to fight for the future of this country, we have been training diligently for it and helping many others along the way. But, because we do not support two dimensional planning there are those that will say - "Now we find out who the real patriots are!""
And the fact that you automatically feel the need to be led shows you are not smart or aware enough to be involved in this fight to begin with.
Both sides are true.
"If you don't know to which port you are sailing, then no wind is preferable."
There is no true leadership of the liberty movement, and no call to action. Everyone is waiting for the Fed to do something stupid, but since they have the upper hand (always), they can simply remain in power longer than you can stay alive.
On the other hand, the current issue these guys are trying to make into a "call to action" is completely...well, left field. If you have to explain your cause in lawyer jargon, you've lost. So this movement will be a detriment more than a benefit.
On the other hand, all these hypocrite leftists calling for the murder of these guys is very telling. They're not so different from the people who want to turn Afghanistan into a parking lot.
As for myself? I feel that if the military is called in, they should shoot everyone. The liberty movement guys, the liberals, just everyone.
The military should just make it's own government and have a coup, all these idiot civilians be damned. Load up the cannister shells into the M1 Abrams, boys, we're goin' skeet shootin'!
Fucking "American citizens" deserve it. Every single one of them on both sides act like animals.
They should be ashamed...or if not, they should be put down like the rabid animals they are.
I assume all you tough talking posters are packing up your gold and guns and heading there now. Isn't this the shootout you all been waiting for? Sorry, but had to say it. Some of the rednecks on this site need to put up or shut up.
You're probably thinking why do you come here if you don't like us? Well, the articles can actually be pretty good, and some of the comments are pretty damn smart too, but I'm almost embarrassed to be on this site when I read the comments from some of you other racist, ignorant crackers. Always insinuating that every black person is part of some Free Shit Army, but I grew up in North Dakota and watched white people suck hard on that government tit too. And not just poor ones. Learn how Federal Crop Insurance works and then let's talk about food stamps.
Here's where I agree with you: 1) too much government interference into markets ruins price discovery, creates inefficiency, and causes bubbles, 2) corruption and crony capitalism are rampant NYC/DC, and 3) our foreign policy is a mess.
With some dialogue and compromise the far right and far left could come together in this country to form a third party that might actually stand a chance, but as long you guys keep up the racist bullshit they will never listen to the part of what you have to say that actually makes sense. Here's how to two sides can compromise:
1) Gun control: Three types of weapon should always be legal: revolvers, shotguns and rifles. This is all you need to hunt and protect your home. The only reason to have an assault rifle (other than to shoot up a school or because it's "cool") is to fight a war. As these hillbillies are about to find out, fighting wars is best left to the professionals.
2) Gay marriage: The government does not recognize marriage, period. The gov only allows two people to register as partners for legal purposes, gay or straight. Churches marry people.
3) Welfare: States should be given more control of the programs. Fraud and abuse of the system should be cracked down on.
4) Abortion: Limit them to the first trimester but also provide real sex ed and access to contraception. People like to fuck. Get used to it. The best way to save babies from being aborted is to keep women who don't want babies from getting pregnant in the first place.
Or you can keep on like this, looking cool spouting racist shit on the internet that pushes people away from the important part of your message. That leaves you with like, maybe, 15% of the population so you will never win any elections (outside of a district here and there), but you can keep planning your dream insurrection or keep hoping for some Mad Max style dystopia where you will be king of the rats because you stored away the most canned food and ammo.
1) Gun control: Three types of weapon should always be legal: revolvers, shotguns and rifles. This is all you need to hunt and protect your home. The only reason to have an assault rifle (other than to shoot up a school or because it's "cool") is to fight a war. As these hillbillies are about to find out, fighting wars is best left to the professionals.
A rifle is a rifle. An M4 is a rifle. An M14 is a rifle. All else is rhetoric. So you agree on the rifle thing. Good.
Almost all the infantrymen I've ever met were hillbillies. If 90% of people join the military to get college money, job experience or simply a pay check, people who go into combat MOS do it because they like to kill shit. Most of the professionals you seem to laud... are fucking hillbillies. Deal with it.
None of us here are spouting Mad Max dystopian shit for our pleasure. We're simply recognizing the fact that the current structure invites this outcome as a near certitude.
racist, ignorant crackers
You yourself are racist and sound like a Democrat who thinks he is soooooo much smarter than ordinary Americans.
I suggest you learn to speak French and move to France where they want more diversity.
For me this site is filled with a bunch of day trading pussies who don't give a damn about America at all.
Your arrogance repulses me.
Now I am leaving this pretend fight club.
lol and haha
I live about 2 hours from this spot. I've done a lot of coyote hunting out there. Close range out to about 600 yards.
"If the Feds use brutality to handle the Oregon conflict, it will indeed "kick-off". There wont be any way to stop it. Just don't get too excited, folks. This is no Lexington or Concord. I really don't know what to call it..."
Stupidity?
<Pure and simple this plays into the strength of Empire.>
Obama wanted to bring in the military against the Bundy Ranch.
I heard a guy say the BLM guys were speaking a middle eastern language
like Hebrew. They didn't look American to me and some looked like military contractors
especially the guy who was talking to Bundy kid at the gully gate.
They will NEVER TAKE THE WEST!!!!!
When you read about the violence and injustice that was done to the peaceful Ranchers It's hard not to feel the anger and frustration evident here. I applaud them for having the guts to do SOMETHING. Where was the rest of this community? Waiting for the BLM to come for them next? And they will.
pouring gas on a fire is DOING SOMETHING. You don't do SOMETHING, you something SMART, doing something stupid is worse than doing nothing at all.
The guy at gully gate was a Merc. I think most of them were Blackwater or being so close to vegas they may have been that middle eastern bunch. They were not just some BLM guys.
Someone posted videos on youtube of the guy at gully gate who was in either afghanistan or Iraq in black outfit as well. He is a merc or some Spec Ops. Ugly MF'er too.
Daniel P. Love, is his name. He was on a Discovery Channel episode on Special Ops and it has been scrubbed off've the Internet.
If it's exactly the wrong move at exactly the wrong time, look more closely at its agents.
I don't think it plays to their strengths at all. Their biggest fear is a rebellion at home--something they haven't had to deal with in 150 years. They have NO IDEA how something like that will effect their military machine (it will be absolutely devastating).
Using armed force against your own citizens is like cutting your own heart out.
There is never a convenient hour for these sorts of things. Most of the "Shot heard round the world" moments are just pure folklore. Can you name one that wasn't? I'm thinking...
Limited hangout much? Things will be what they will be. It's a whole process of change, which seems to be resisted by a lot of those who claim to lead some "liberty movement".
These people are worried about the timing and Obumma'a executive action on gun control ? That tells you everything you really need to know right there.
Obama can be portrayed as a tyrant for pushing unilateral action which helps create the more favorable conditions for a fight in the future according to the author. If a group of purported terrorists force Obama's hand and he can be portrayed as a protector of the people then that advantage is not only lost but turned against liberty advocates.
Just who has been "terrorized" here? Who is the victim? The real terrorists are those who serve/bow down to the corrupt US Government
It's about perception though. If the FEDs kill those men the people will perceive them as what they are. If some agents or idiots kick off some type of offensive action then they will leave people with a negative viewpoint of the rancher types.
Last time I saw this happen was at Wonded Knee II and people died on both sides but mostly Indians which backfired on the BIA because people were furious world wide.
Military historians who study things like "The Alamo" or Task Force Smith (July 1950, Korea), see these "actions" as dangerously flawed - I would add the Bundy action to this list. However, as pointed out, he wouldn't be alone in trying to "kick something off" in a rather haphazard way. Who knows what will happen. I've come to distrust just about every source of "truth" at this point and I have no idea if these guys are legit or just another psyop.
God help us.
I guess you have no idea how angry people are over what has happened in the past 50 years.
it's real, it's now, it goes live.
God won't helps us, we allowed this.
Just like my asshole ex husband knocked my ass around...I married him, didn't I?
"Just like my asshole ex husband knocked my ass around...I married him, didn't I?"
I don't know a woman on earth who doesn't need to get slapped around from time to time.
Its good for you.
Keeps you humble.
He soon regreted it once I got back on my feet.
Did you know the poll shows the most angry people in America are white women?
the talking heads were unhappy, they like the narrative of angry white man.
Those sons of Obama are never called angry black men, now are they?
Yes I am angry, my ancestors settled this country from 1630.
I have multiple graves from the revolutionary war.
It's in my DNA to stand up once I need to.
And a government by the people and for the people is like a spouse, who isn't supposed to attack you.
We are being attacked by our own government in our own home.
so yeah, my parallel is spot on.
"t angry people in America are white women?
Makes sense.
A majority of women are on crazy pills.
They elected obama.
Now they are married to the state.
As well, 'merican women bought the lie that they could get educated, ride the cock carousel, get a great high paying "you go gurl" job, pop out some kids and have a house husband to cash out on because they are "unhaaaaaaaapy" after they sit their kids in front of the teevee and microwaving dinner.
'Merican women are moving into the "disalusioned" phase of vapid stupidity.
Which means they think hillary will get them out of this mess they got themselves in.
Oh well stupid cunts.
Boo. Fucking hoo.
Made Bed. Lie down in.
And pets. Pets have taken over raising kids.