Oregon Standoff: A Terrible Plan That We Might Be Stuck With
Submitted by Brandon Smith via Alt-Market.com,
Well, there is whole host of things wrong with this situation, which is why I never supported or endorsed "Operation Hammond Freedom" to begin with. There is a lot of misinformation out there at this time on the debacle in Oregon, and certain alternative media outlets seem to be conveniently overlooking particular facts. I suspect that some people in the movement simply want to "kick it off" (a second American revolution), and they don't care if the circumstances of that kick-off are favorable or terrible (I realize "favorable" is relative, but starting this fight from a much stronger position is more than possible). This attitude was prevalent among some at Bundy Ranch, as certain groups refused to dig in positions for a real fight in the hopes that they would be "martyred" for the cause. This, in case you were wondering, is idiotic.
Oath Keepers including founder Stewart Rhodes was the only organization to predict how Ammon Bundy's vague calls for action on the part of the Hammond Family would actually play out. They received a lot of ignorant attacks in response, and yet, they were absolutely right.
Ammon, apparently trying to recreate what cannot be recreated, is looking for another Bundy Ranch stand-off. First, I would point out that such events can't be artificially fabricated. They have to happen in an organic way. Whenever a group of people attempt to engineer a revolutionary moment, even if their underlying motivations are righteous, it usually ends up kicking them in the ass (Fort Sumter is a good example). Ammon's wingmen appear to be Blaine Cooper aka Stanley Blaine Hicks (a convicted felon), and Ryan Payne (who claimed falsely during the Bundy Ranch standoff that he was an Army Ranger and who worked diligently to cause divisions between involved parties on the ground). This was the first sign that nothing good was going to come from the Hammond protest.
I have watched extensive video from the event in Oregon and am privy to accounts from participants. From the information at my disposal, it would appear that Ammon and team did NOT make clear their intentions to occupy the federal wildlife refuge building except to a select few, inviting protesters to "take a hard stand" without revealing what this would entail until they were already in the middle of it all. OPSEC? No, I think not. Obviously the goal was to lure as many protesters to Oregon as possible to the event in the hopes that they would jump on board with the stand-off plan once they were more personally involved. Numerous protesters were rightly enraged once they discovered the ultimate motives behind the event.
The plan is basically this - use the Hammond family as a vehicle (yes, this is what is being done) even though they did not want any kind of standoff to result and specifically refused aid. Occupy federally owned buildings which have little to do with anything of importance and have no symbolic power as did Bundy Ranch. Elicit federal response. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Bundy Ranch had many positive elements going for it, which is why it ended the way it did. This standoff has none of the same elements. I suppose one could ask, though, why do I care?
It's true, these people have every right to make positively naive strategic errors and I don't have to participate directly if I don't like it. The problem, however, is that Ammon and friends have decided they want to be the "tip of the spear" (his words, not mine). I do not think they understand what this means, or they don't care. What it means is, even though I think the entire Oregon plan is ill conceived; literally the WORST possible way to launch a fight against federal corruption, if the federal government moves in a heavy handed manner to kill these people, I and many others will have to fight as well by default when a FAR better tactical and social position could have been achieved. My conscience simply will not allow the rationalization of the deaths of liberty minded people even if their stupidity brought about the circumstances. And frankly, that pisses me off.
As a student of asymmetrics, I understand that choosing the time, place and circumstances is 95% of the battle ahead against an advanced opponent. More organization is needed. More preparedness. More training. More public awareness. The Oregon standoff could steal away what little time we had left.
The Oregon standoff potentially forces the hand of the Liberty Movement, not the hand of corrupt government - the exact reverse of what should be happening.
Mike Vanderboegh has outlined similar thoughts expertly in this article. Everything he has written is exactly what was going through my own mind when I heard of the happenings in Oregon. Ammon Bundy and companions are not the tip of the spear. Not even close. What I do fear is that they are cannon fodder beckoning a nationwide government crackdown to which I and others will then be forced to personally respond to with equal f*cking measure. And all of this on the worst possible terms and at a very inconvenient time (executive actions on gun control mere weeks from now).
And here's the best part; those of us who remain critical of the clinically retarded maneuver being executed here are going to be called cowards and "keyboard warriors"; it's a given. We are all ready to fight for the future of this country, we have been training diligently for it and helping many others along the way. But, because we do not support two dimensional planning there are those that will say - "Now we find out who the real patriots are!"
Against stupid plan = coward against freedom and action. Just watch.
If the Feds use brutality to handle the Oregon conflict, it will indeed "kick-off". There wont be any way to stop it. Just don't get too excited, folks. This is no Lexington or Concord. I really don't know what to call it...
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Me too.
It was actually good for the grass and it was greener after it grew back.
How did you get all the details on my ex wife? Or were you talking about yours down below? Sounds like you had the superbitch treatment too. You know like this
Divorce you.. get child support.
Lie to the state and say she is broke in order to get housing food and other bennefits. (Jesus she had 20k in checking when she did this!)
Get a new boyfriend to get money from. She of course cant marry him or lose #2
Become such a hostile psyco that BOTH your kids wind up at the shrink.
That one good thing about the crash/WWIII/revolution. It WILL sort out this whole gender switch thing really really fast.
Dumb, asinine idea. They are backing the wrong horse and need to figure out how to get out of this without eating too much crow.
You can wait till your bones rot...... some have had ENOUGH and dont give a shit what starts it......
This will just be more ammo for the libtards to flog middle class white people that have guns and a cowboy hat. The next thing we will be seeing is Donald Trump featured in the "liberation of the last of the patriot cows" recruitment videos.
If this is some type of provacatuer thing then.......It means its already started. And it means our own govt is trying to start a civil war. They cant be that fucking stupid or can they?
Its looking like a provacateur action... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OT14pA_rLqI Blaine Cooper is a fraud. He never served in the USMC and has been arrested multiple times (17, I think I read). He enlisted and was in the DEP (Delayed Entry Program) but never shipped out to boot camp. He even admitted to not being a Marine. http://www.fakewarriors.org/phonies/phonies781.htm
Well fuck if its on you tube ........
"They cant be that fucking stupid or can they?"
Yes, they can be that stupid.
If the US falls into any kind of serious civil conflict it will completely screw up the washingtons ability to project power outside the country. The military will also be in state of disorder. If the us military stops functioning the entire world will go crazy! How long you think the Saudis will last without big bro? What about Ukraine? You think Europe will fight Russia alone for a wrecked country? No Russia would make HUGE gains in that scenario. If civil war starts it will erase a lot of gains and since taking over the planet is what they want... I just cant see it. I think it will end without bloodshed because anything else could have monster implications for the powers that be..... What is the point of being king if you rule a pile of rubble?
The US military is also the only thing propping up the dollar. Would washinton risk losing the dollar? That would be about as stupid as it gets.
DEATH TO THE US IMPERIAL FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, FUCK OBAMA and his NWO PUPPET MASTERS!
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2016/01/no-more-free-wacos-na...
http://www.ammoland.com/2016/01/powder-keg-occupation-of-oregon-wildlife...
Charlie foxtrot
wait till this gets in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7o6BzFWlgM
I can understand having some issues with how things kick off especially when your ass might be on the line but what will good circumstances look like? Is it the upcoming gun legislation and the timing that's one of the primary problems? At this rate unorganized citizens may start their own revolts when 2A legislation goes down and that would probably be worse would it not?
As far as the authorities unleashing on us that is a for sure regardless of what happens. They are bringing terrorists into this country, how much time do we have?
Well if the " Authorities " are out hunting humans that would mean their hen houses are ripe for pickings...keep that in mind.
Cool heads need to prevail or many people will indeed die needlessly. The US government is the agent provocateur and needs to chill the fuck out, it never ends with these people constantly pulling on the rubber band.
WHEN IS ENOUGH!...ENOUGH!
if .gov acts first and asks questions later, this will surely set off the fringe elements of the liberty movement but does not affect the likes of this author and his goals for his .org. his inability to rationalize the killing of liberty minded people by .gov without reactuing shows his lack of military discipline as his assertion sounds like a threat. i guess he would rather have a well planned operation to srt things off or the equivalent of the guy who immolated himself as an act of desperation that set off the tunisian regime change.
That strike thing? jus sayin i dont think there are many bankers anywhere near that place.
I'm actually waiting to be part of the solution after the idiots in charge fail so completely that everyone is looking for some sort of solution. I think that time is coming soon.
Is it me or.....is Brandon Smith a BLM idiot liberal delusional douche?
Got damn media people in this country have a disgusting level of narcissism.
Ten bucks smith sucks pole.
Black pole.
#WhiteStandoffsMatter
Wrong place/wrong time.
Kudos for the balls to do it - but we know how Waco ended, and Ruby Ridge, etc.
There were a lot less angry and desperate people then. A lot more teevee watchers and a lot less gun owners. I wouldn't count on this playing out the same.
God. Damn It. Before you go on about how many gun owners there are I'd like you to answer me a quaestion. I've asked this question in different ways in multiple threads and all I get is downvotes and the occasional accusation of being a troll. So before you hit downvote and go back to your couch to stew for fucks sake give me a REAL ANSWER TO THE FOLLOWING:
1) What is your actual plan for overcoming the armed might of the military? Bear in mind most gun owning citiziens have hunting rifles and zero training of any kind. They are overweight and work 60 hours a wek in offices. They will be going up against drones, ordinance delivered from the air, and armored vehicles. Even the footsoldiers they will encounter will have body armor, grenades, assault rifles, and crew served weapons. And please don't go on about the middle east and guerillas; the situation is different here and you know it. Also don't waste your time trying to tell me the military will disobey orders cus history says you are wrong.
2) Again if you study history you will find resistnace movements that lack a broad swath of the populace on their side are doomed to failure. So my next question is: what is your plan for when your revolution disrupts the flow of commerce and nobody has any food to eat? That's almost everybody, you know... including people in rural areas and yes I live in Minnesota farm country and know what I am talking about there. Even the farmers produce almost nothing they can eat without processing, and don't know how. If your revolution is making people hungry they will turn on you; they'll rat you out if they see you and shoot you if they can get away with it. Revolution is almost impossible when almost everybody is utterly dependant on uninterrupted flow of goods and services for basic necessities.
I'm not trolling; from where I'm sitting I can't see any possibility of victory unless the military sides with the revolution or at least stands down. this will not happen. Also I can't see a reolutuion gettin the necessary popular support when the average american has maybe a week's worth of food in the house and has no way outside of the JIT delivery system to get more. Unless it's wiped out in the opening phases any revolutionary actuion WILL disrupt commerce. Big problem.
Please consider and ANSWER these questions before downvoting.
Man, who are you talking to? who do you refer to when you say "you can't win".
Are you talking to that small group in Oregaon? Or you asking the whole people of USA?
There is no americans who are fighting against the Government. Only a small sub group of people in Oregon.
If they want to attract more, they probably get a few more from those agitated armed people who are ready to die.
So, the answer to your question is there is no revolution. So, nobody is trying to overcome the US Government forces.
I am sure, this jokers in Oregon are either crazy and ready to die just like those Islamic extremist. Or they have an ulterior motive such as being paid by an organization on false objectives and probably with false promises.
As you correctly say, people want to live and happily as all Americans do. They do not need to fight, but not becuase they are fat or eat processed food.
When the real revolution comes, no Government can control the people, as even the fat and unarmed will find a way to fight. Never underestimate the spirit of the people. Because people include the soldiers that Government depend on too.
The moment the rest of the world even THINKS America is having its own "spring" it all collapses. The dollar, the debt, the market... all of it.
Interesting point. Time will tell. The story was bbroken by The Russian Times, who overplayed it a little, zeroing in on everyone's weapons.
John Ross outlined the proper plan of action in his book Unintended Consequences and it does not involve overcoming the might of the military or disrupting the flow of commerce. It does however require that some percentage of the population (and I don't claim to know what percentage) gets fed up enough with their servitude that they are willing to spontaneously and quietly take individual action regardless of the consequences.
It's hard to believe that any of the clueless jokers in Oregon have any military training at all. Setting themselves up as sitting ducks with their supply lines cut off is suicidal, not to mention extremely foolish. Maybe they think the entire nation will rally to their cause, but they are mistaken because far too many have succumbed to government propaganda and the lure of "free stuff".
The constant drum of government propaganda that's been drilled into children and adults over the last generation or two has done its work well. I think there will never be an American revolution unless commerce and supply lines first come to a halt and the average Joe is faced with starvation. It's the same thing that China fears from its population and for the same reason...hunger.
Too many people who are near the tipping point still have too much to lose.
It brings Gerald Celente to mind.... "when people have nothing to lose, they lose it"
It's a little early for the opening of hostilities
1) What is your actual plan for overcoming the armed might of the military?
You’re vastly over-estimating the “armed might of the military.” Iraq was a country roughly the size of California with half the population. Nearly the entire might of US Armed Forces was brought to bare. How did that play out? Sure, they rolled their tanks through Baghdad after 2 weeks. So what? The US military was unable to pacify a country the size of California with half the population of California. The Iraqi resistance wasn’t even formidable.
2) Again if you study history you will find resistnace movements that lack a broad swath of the populace on their side are doomed to failure. So my next question is: what is your plan for when your revolution disrupts the flow of commerce and nobody has any food to eat?
I think armed resistance is a romantic fairy-tale that plays right into the Feds' hand. I think withdrawing support is far more effective. That said, armed resistance is an historical inevitability because people just can’t seem to grasp how much power they wield when they withhold cooperation. It’s paradoxical. The simplest thing to do is intellectually the hardest to grasp for most people.
That said, a lot of your assumptions are simply fallacious.You’re asking the wrong questions.
You raise valid oints but I think you're overlooking something.
Revolutionaires are not soliders, they are terrorists, and the greatest weapon of terrorists is not battle but sabotage. 100 ordinary men might not last long in a direct confrontation, but imagine if they spread out and devoted their enegy to sabotaging infrastructure and ambushing small groups of regular soldiers. Think of the mischief they could create.
True but what if those men know they may never come out of there and are sacrificing themselves. A battle cannot be won against a superior enemy in direct conflict anyway. This could be more about winning hearts and minds than winning a battle.
We are losing our gun rights in a couple days, something is going to kick off eventually on it's own and then these more intelligent men will have no say in how it appears to the public. If it ended like Ruby Ridge it would be terrible but those men may be hoping that is exactly what will happen.
Just so you know....you are such a clueless moron I downrate every post you make then read them.
I have not been wrong on my downrates yet, you hysterical cunt.
I'll be sure to cry about that later, I'm the last person to be overly concerned about downvotes. Why don't you stop fucking up this thread and go back to the farm. Your Dad called and he said your girlfriend has her head stuck in the fence again, now is your chance.
hahahahah thats good!
Fucking epic...
I love your spirit.
Could not stop laughing.
Perfect. Absolutely perfect.
Anyone else hearing all those crickets?
I stongly considered that angle too. The fact the some of the guys seem "disposable" really makes it more believable not less. One arrested 17 times, lying about being a ranger. Perhaps he is seeking redemption.
I'm all about fuck my opressive government, along with the financial bullshit we've had to endure that have destroyed our families financial lives, but this ranch takeover fiasco is a complete shit show.
This Ammon Bundy character looks like he's trying write himself into the history books. I'll bet he couldn't bear it when the drama was over on his Dad's land and the lack of media coverage left him low on celebrity. It will cost all of us who give a hoot and are smart enought to wait until a rabid, overreaching Fedzilla steps on his own pizzle.
Wrong move by these guys, but if there is another Waco event, then we the people must react to that and react sternly. In other words, these guys MUST get due process and a fair trial. Nothing less.
No more mass slaughters to be tolerated.
They went before a kangaroo court and are now convicted terrorists. How can that be solved? What would you suggest.
Harsh language and BLM propaganda, you rayciss!
You mean while the NFL is still in process? Don't be silly...
Well, that would inconvenience the Liberty Movement and Oath Keepers.
They'd have to actually Act, rather than talk and have circle jerks. Just how many Marches on DC or on any state capital have these brave & daring souls organized?
[crickets] Yeah, I thought so. Always looking for donations, subscribers, member fees, meeting, etc, but nary real actions that involve real risk. Brave is as brave does. Unless they're the Controlled Opposition, of course. Which is how they're behaving.
Folks... WATCH WHAT (IF ANYTHING) THEY DO, NOT JUST WHAT THEY SAY.
+100
This is an interesting operation in that the Feds are all over social media "shaming" these guys and calling for treason charges be brought.
The model is to publicly embarrass and humiliate future troublemakers into "pre-compliance."
What was the motto of Jade Helm?
"Master the Human Domain"
We're all just Nodes now.
There is no treason because there is no Country. It is a Corporation. If you are a U.S. Citizen you are an employee and asset of the Corporation. If you cause trouble you become an expendable Human Resource of a Corporation. And they aren't going to lay you off.
"Master the Human Domain"
"We are facing a 3rd world war against humanity."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xYfIfhs-PE
I said the same damn thing in the other thread and got crucified. This is fucking DUMB.
I'll call it a fart in a windstorm over a bog leaking methane.