Oregon Standoff: A Terrible Plan That We Might Be Stuck With
Submitted by Brandon Smith via Alt-Market.com,
Well, there is whole host of things wrong with this situation, which is why I never supported or endorsed "Operation Hammond Freedom" to begin with. There is a lot of misinformation out there at this time on the debacle in Oregon, and certain alternative media outlets seem to be conveniently overlooking particular facts. I suspect that some people in the movement simply want to "kick it off" (a second American revolution), and they don't care if the circumstances of that kick-off are favorable or terrible (I realize "favorable" is relative, but starting this fight from a much stronger position is more than possible). This attitude was prevalent among some at Bundy Ranch, as certain groups refused to dig in positions for a real fight in the hopes that they would be "martyred" for the cause. This, in case you were wondering, is idiotic.
Oath Keepers including founder Stewart Rhodes was the only organization to predict how Ammon Bundy's vague calls for action on the part of the Hammond Family would actually play out. They received a lot of ignorant attacks in response, and yet, they were absolutely right.
Ammon, apparently trying to recreate what cannot be recreated, is looking for another Bundy Ranch stand-off. First, I would point out that such events can't be artificially fabricated. They have to happen in an organic way. Whenever a group of people attempt to engineer a revolutionary moment, even if their underlying motivations are righteous, it usually ends up kicking them in the ass (Fort Sumter is a good example). Ammon's wingmen appear to be Blaine Cooper aka Stanley Blaine Hicks (a convicted felon), and Ryan Payne (who claimed falsely during the Bundy Ranch standoff that he was an Army Ranger and who worked diligently to cause divisions between involved parties on the ground). This was the first sign that nothing good was going to come from the Hammond protest.
I have watched extensive video from the event in Oregon and am privy to accounts from participants. From the information at my disposal, it would appear that Ammon and team did NOT make clear their intentions to occupy the federal wildlife refuge building except to a select few, inviting protesters to "take a hard stand" without revealing what this would entail until they were already in the middle of it all. OPSEC? No, I think not. Obviously the goal was to lure as many protesters to Oregon as possible to the event in the hopes that they would jump on board with the stand-off plan once they were more personally involved. Numerous protesters were rightly enraged once they discovered the ultimate motives behind the event.
The plan is basically this - use the Hammond family as a vehicle (yes, this is what is being done) even though they did not want any kind of standoff to result and specifically refused aid. Occupy federally owned buildings which have little to do with anything of importance and have no symbolic power as did Bundy Ranch. Elicit federal response. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Bundy Ranch had many positive elements going for it, which is why it ended the way it did. This standoff has none of the same elements. I suppose one could ask, though, why do I care?
It's true, these people have every right to make positively naive strategic errors and I don't have to participate directly if I don't like it. The problem, however, is that Ammon and friends have decided they want to be the "tip of the spear" (his words, not mine). I do not think they understand what this means, or they don't care. What it means is, even though I think the entire Oregon plan is ill conceived; literally the WORST possible way to launch a fight against federal corruption, if the federal government moves in a heavy handed manner to kill these people, I and many others will have to fight as well by default when a FAR better tactical and social position could have been achieved. My conscience simply will not allow the rationalization of the deaths of liberty minded people even if their stupidity brought about the circumstances. And frankly, that pisses me off.
As a student of asymmetrics, I understand that choosing the time, place and circumstances is 95% of the battle ahead against an advanced opponent. More organization is needed. More preparedness. More training. More public awareness. The Oregon standoff could steal away what little time we had left.
The Oregon standoff potentially forces the hand of the Liberty Movement, not the hand of corrupt government - the exact reverse of what should be happening.
Mike Vanderboegh has outlined similar thoughts expertly in this article. Everything he has written is exactly what was going through my own mind when I heard of the happenings in Oregon. Ammon Bundy and companions are not the tip of the spear. Not even close. What I do fear is that they are cannon fodder beckoning a nationwide government crackdown to which I and others will then be forced to personally respond to with equal f*cking measure. And all of this on the worst possible terms and at a very inconvenient time (executive actions on gun control mere weeks from now).
And here's the best part; those of us who remain critical of the clinically retarded maneuver being executed here are going to be called cowards and "keyboard warriors"; it's a given. We are all ready to fight for the future of this country, we have been training diligently for it and helping many others along the way. But, because we do not support two dimensional planning there are those that will say - "Now we find out who the real patriots are!"
Against stupid plan = coward against freedom and action. Just watch.
If the Feds use brutality to handle the Oregon conflict, it will indeed "kick-off". There wont be any way to stop it. Just don't get too excited, folks. This is no Lexington or Concord. I really don't know what to call it...
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Because the feds can call in a drone and blow the whole building to hell. We're up against technology as much as anything else... and it's probably got us by the balls.
Please tell me how to withdraw consent........ i never gave it to begin with.
The big "kick-off" event hasn't happened yet and this isn't it either. I'm guessing this group has been infiltrated as another false flag will be served. How handy it is just before King O appears with the white haired twit on Thursday night primetime.
"This is no Lexington or Concord. I really don't know what to call it..."
Harper's Ferry
"I really don't know what to call it..."
Another distraction from the world economic crash. Period!
"Harper's Ferry"
A youthful Robert Lee was involved in that, as well as Washingtons son.
Killed those naggers they did.
Fucking hippies.
Harper's Ferry, no... that was actually more like zealotous terrorism. Whiskey rebellion, almost but not quite. Pullman Riots, no.. Homestead revolt, no... There have really only been two occasions when a tipping point of wealthy land owners got pissed off enough to get violent.
Can you name those to points in American History?
The revolution and the war of northern aggression.
The posts here are mostly ridiculous (with a couple of exceptions). If you really want to understand how monstrous the federal leviathan has become, read the full story about the Hammonds. If you don't get pissed off by this story, please go back to your slave quarters.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/#more-110497
Dude, we get it. but being pissed doesn't fill me with the desire to throw myslef into a doomed rebellion and get killed for nothing. If you're going to try and recruit me for your revolutionary army I need answers to the following:
1) What is your plan? That plan needs to take into account the full armed might of the military being brought to bear against you.
2) How do you intend to get and keep sufficient popular support? This has to include keeping any territory you capture fed when the inevitable supply disruptions occur.
3) What are your intentions for after the war? What do you propose to set up in place of the present tyranny? revolutions have a notoriously poor track record of replacing the old regime with anything better.
The MOMENT America is seen to waver and be at risk of civil war, the dollar collapses. Wall Street collapses. An army marches on its stomach. The way this nation works now, the supply chain needs to be 24/7 lest complete chaos lets loose.
Let the cities burn. How much gasoline do you think they can get to get very far out of it durring the chaos? Some astronomical percentage of the american population is sickly and on meds. They won't be going out to the country side to pillage. A high ranking military figure would be nice. Preferably one from the flyover states with ambition and not a lot of religiosity. Pretty much the entire nuclear arsenal is in the heart of the nation. [save the subs] as well are the majority of the military bases. If you burned off the east and west coast, what would you really be missing? [that's a damn good percent of the population, but the least productive]
Afterwards... let us see..... The world economy would be in ruins like when Rome fell. Only treasury coins, gold and silver are valid as money. It would take quite a while for folks to figure out how to counterfeit them, en masse, and it's not like they can actually be picked up in the street. A debt jubilee is declared. A law and regulation jubilee is declared and we reaffirm the constitution. Get back to where we started. You're right, a revolution is a return to where you started. I think it was a pretty good run for the first 150 years or so.
..
Your best comment so far today Fly boy!
I don't want to go back to where we started. We are in the end days of a failed system; do you really want to repeat it?
And don't give me any BS about how it ws fine till the fed came along. it wasn't. The early industrial revolution was basically terrible for anyone who didn't own or manage the fucking factory, andreforms were made because workers were rioting en masse. Capitalism will ALWAYS end up this way, just like cummunism will always end up the way it did in the soviet union. We're just waiting for the next thing and it'll probably be something we can't even imagine right now. But rebooting the old system is just dumb. Besides, the constituion sucks. No more giving other people power over us, thanks so much.
an agragrian society has historically worked very well.. the catch is it only works well when resources and population are in check.
And when unthreatened by barbarian hoards....
I said nothing of violence. How about a vigil set up outside of the prison where the Hammonds will be residing for the next 4 years (that is, if the father doesn't die in prison). Tea Party, OWS, whatever you want to call it - a peaceful protest by thousands at every federal building in the USA. Then go around the mainstream media to keep the injustice in the minds of the average Murican. Think MLK or Ghandi, not John Wayne.
Best response to what the afterparty should look like.
I beat feet after fighting USFS, BLM and state bureaucracy for 20 years. You just can't win.
The system will endure until something very big destabilizes it, until then the dude abides.
I get how bad the federal government has become. That in no way justifies the actions of these out-of-state armed thugs. The Hammonds have disavowed this action and the locals are understandly pretty pissed off over the chaos brought about by these outsiders.
it's called darwinian natural selection. one Fed sniper with IR will clear the squatters
Typical psychopath bootlicker attitude.
No, he's gotta be a federal employee.....you can smell them a mile away..... They all think alike.....drones....
That's why thee is the army and drone force and navy lol
You've obviously not been paying attention to US tactics. You can bomb them, you would have the entire planet look at you like Assad. so.... what are you going to do? send in soliders or FBI? send them into a very snowy, rugged unfamiliar environment in groups of like 20? You deer hunt much in really thick snowy national forests? They don't often come up to your stand. About the WORST fucking mistake they could make is to send in miltary snipers to hunt those boys down like rabbits. Not to mention, I've a feeling there are few 'rambos' on the opposing side, as well. Fully equiped.
Drones don't do you a fucking bit of good in a dense snowy forest. Just ask Vietnam Vets. "oh oh! behind that tree!... NO, now that one!"
American public must now realize that US govt puppeteered by cabal banksters & corporates is looting them at every opportunity in evry which way , the cabals are stuffing pockets of these politicians with cash & keep them contended while Americans are losing . Not only that even the American police is looting all cash from anyone holding it on , if you have cash you are a criminal hah ha.
This is worse than a totalitarian regime.
How long will the tribulations last under immoral authority?
U.S NATIONAL SECURITY
Study Says White Extremists Have Killed More Americans in the U.S. Than Jihadists Since 9/11
Radical Islamists were also indicted more frequently than non-Muslim extremists and served longer sentences
Since 9/11, white right-wing terrorists have killed more Americans in homegrown attacks than radical Islamists have, according to research by the New America Foundation.
In their June study, the foundation decided to examine groups “engaged in violent extremist activity” and found that white extremists were by far the most dangerous. They pointed to the recent Emanuel AME Church shooting in Charleston, S.C., and the 2012 attack on a Sikh temple in Wisconsin, as well as many lesser-known attacks on Jewish institutions and on police. They found that 48 people were killed by white terrorists, while 45 were killed by radical Islamists, since Sept. 11.
The study also found that the criminal justice system judged jihadists more harshly than their non-Muslim counterparts, indicting them more frequently than non-jihadists and handing down longer sentences.
See a full breakdown of the numbers here.
It's about time they started categorizing "Police Departments" as violent right wing extremists.
.....depends on what your definition of "white extremists" are now, right Arthur? I see what you did there. :)
I didn't 'define' anything. That report above is a compilation of facts.
You like facts? Then explain why muslims, who make up 2.11% of the population, are responsible for almost HALF of the deaths you claim as "facts".
Those are your facts, sir, and I am not challenging them. I am, however, challenging the logic by which you analyze those facts.
White percentage of population = 77.35%
Muslim percentage in America = 2.11%
Therefore, if white extremism was the same problem as muslim extremism, the number of Americans killed by white extremists vs. muslim extremists should be 150 to 1.
Instead, you say it is about even.
Care to respond?
The Bundys have zero to do with liberty and everything to do with right wing populism.
Nice try, dildo.
You'll have better luck on HuffPo's comment board.
How come a dozen shouting college students can get college presidents and faculty fired, or a handful of Bkack Luves protesters can get police chiefs fired, or three Muslims get bacon off the cafeteria menu - but a hundred white guys with guns, trying to keep two guys out of immediately going to jail - are called 'wrong' by the author!?
cuz the author is cucked
"...but a hundred white guys with guns, trying to keep two guys out of immediately going to jail..."
That isn't the reality of it, and you know it.
Whoops...
White oppression.....
(sarc)
Moar:
Aha.. It turns Out That The Hammond Ranch Is Sitting On Natural Gas And Uranium that China Wants..Like The Bundys Ranch Was.....:
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=36534
RIGHT!
He's mentioned the miners twice in 2 different videos.
Nice score for the cause!
Oh, yeah - the BLM are such war-hardened bad boys with sooooo much combat experience.
Our military is like 0-9 since WW2.
Author advocates to continue shaking in boots like cucks
but only if you've prepared a snarky retort.
What is the difference between this and an old Hippie sit in? Context. Other than that, nothing. Same actions, difference "narrative" from our lords and masters. Boy the oligarchs sure were tolerant of the Hippies for some reason, weren't they?
guns with people who know how to use them. why do you think hippies finally sobered up and now run the government?
and as I sit here cowering and hoping/praying/waiting,
I'll get accused of being a coward, just you watch and see!
Armed rebellion = TREASON. kill them all.
Yes, kill them all.
Jolly good, cheerio, spit spot, chip chop, Queen Mum, fish an chips, keep calm and breathe fahts...
Isn't that a quote of King George from 1776?
This whole idea percolating that the next revolution has to look like the last 2 is another fallacy. To collapse the system we simply need to stop participating in it. If all baseball fans stopped going to major league baseball games for even one weekend the entire league would reset their pricing. If people all stopped flying simultaneously the airlines would reprice flights. If depositors would all close their accounts at XYZ bank simultaneously they would collapse the bank. We could go on. It is just this simple. Boycotts work. Particularly well synchronized boycotts. Look at how the inadvertant dislocations created by the internet are affected news media and the press. The only reason they aren't caving into the serious dislocations created by the internet is because it seem accidental to them. If they perceived intention they would change their tune.
But the paradigm of armed resistance is baked into the cake. So Brandon's point about maintaining the moral high ground is very relevant. Most people recognize the aggressor is the belligerent party in an armed confrontation, and align their sympathies accordingly. Simply arguing the Federal government has been a proxy aggressor by virtue of belligerent policies doesn't meet a threshold for a majority of people.
To collapse the system we simply need to herd cats.
This is why I belive I noticed those boys up in Oregon are willing to sit up there all winter and hunt rabbits. No demands, no aggression, no threats.
I assure you that none of the FBI twats are gung ho on tromping through the rugged snowy forest trying to hunt them down. Fireworks would be too large. Casualties too high. Sympathy huge. The only smart option is let them sit up there all winter and become ignored. Though, that only works if their numbers and area don't grow. It again plays with the media.
This early in the game? You can't justify going in an shooting down 150 extrememly well armed cowboys. The fucking local sheriff hasn't even paid them a visit.