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Art Cashin On #OccupyWallStreet, Marlon Brando And Ann Coulter
The daily dose of truth from the UBS veteran, as indispensable as morning coffee. Today, he covers Steve Jobs passing, the "Barroso" market, and the Occupy Wall Street movement in his unique and traditionally laconic way.
On Barroso Bobbing, and on market moves:
Barroso Bobs About But Bulls Hang On With “They Finally Get It” Thesis - While there were several pieces of economic data here in the U.S., they served primarily as background static to the continuing drama playing out among the banks in Europe. As I have been saying for months - Europe is driving this bus.
Rather than going step by step and minute by minute through yesterday’s action, it might be better to try to get a general overview from 30,000 feet or so.
For many months now European authorities (and the world press) have been framing the very volatile and nervous trading in markets a “Greek” (or other sovereign) debt problem. Markets, on the other hand, have been yelling (and gyrating) saying - yeah, that’s right - long term - but you have a banking crisis - right now.
That’s why markets erupted in the final hour of trading Wednesday. Leaders began to talk about recapitalizing the European banking system - and quickly. Suddenly, markets said - “They get it. They finally get it.” They were going to look at the real problem, at last.
One of the things that probably caused that “Eureka” moment among European authorities may have been Dexia, the large but virtually unnoticed Belgian bank. Dexia, or at least the rumors surrounding Dexia, became the perfect poster child for the problems and risks surrounding European banking.
Since we first noted the Dexia rumors three days ago, the layers of the onion are being peeled away, one at a time. It had originally passed the stress test with flying colors. That raised questions about the validity of the stress tests. Next, there were reports that Dexia was highly leveraged, with at least one source saying it has twice the leverage of Lehman before the fall.
Then there was the risk of contagion. Rumors began to spread that Dexia was involved in U.S. municipal bond trading, in Guaranteed Income contracts, various annuities, and on and on. Traders felt they were reading a paper with a dateline of 2008.
So, with the eruption, or at least unveiling, of Dexia dropping a flaming example of the banking problem into the laps of the European authorities, markets felt assured that they could no longer ignore it or even postpone addressing it. That’s what caused the late Tuesday rally and the carryover yesterday. The action today and tomorrow may tell us a great deal about what kind of legs this action will have.
On Jobs:
This morning the papers, media and newsletter are filled with deserving tributes to Mr. Jobs. He was truly unique. My best recollection was when he described the MAC as the “computer for the rest of us”. He made technology that worked for you, rather than the other way around. From the MAC through the iPod, the iPhone; iTunes and the iPad, he made devices that looked and felt cool. He put us in “touch” with the world around us.
An innovator on the culture-changing level, his loss leaves us with nagging question - what if? We may get a hint of that when, and if, his revolutionary vision of the next TV is released.
He touched a generation on a personal level as may be seen in the tributes showing up on sidewalks outside Apple stores this morning. As the ancient Romans would say on the passing of a great commander - “Ave Atque Vale!” (Hail and Farewell!)
And on Occupy Wall Street:
Wall Street Protests - Two favorite observations on the vague and often conflicting “goals” of the protestors. First, from an FoF member:
The Occupy Wall Street protest is reminiscent of the scene in the 1953 film "The Wild One" where a young woman asks a motorcycle gang leader played by Marlon Brando, "Hey Johnny, what are you rebelling against?"
Brando deadpans, "Whaddya got?"
Then, from Ann Coulter:
I am not the first to note the vast differences between the Wall Street protesters and the tea partiers. To name three: The tea partiers have jobs, showers and a point.
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So the root problem is the people? The lack of a vigilant electorate? Well guess what, OccupyWallStreet is the only vigilant electorate I see trying to undue Crony Capitalism. That is one of the broad strokes of their message, no? So jump on board, join in, tweak the specific message and demands you want.
Don't turn this into a left vs. right thing.
Don't just sit there and be a cynic.
click-happy... delete
delete
Thanks for confirming the socialist bias of the OWS crowd. Good luck with your Big Brother and all the tender mercies he plans for you.
So you haven't worked it out then.
Never mind - you keep plugging the free enterprise game and I'll see you in the fascist regime which will eventually take control.
Your big brother is a faceless private oligarth - at least I know where I can find mine and burn him out.
I'll keep promoting self reliance while you promote burning people. Then we'll see who is more contented at the end of the day.
Self reliance?
People who boast about self reliance are usually those who are most reliant.
Like the NeoCons - they talk of self responsibility - but they were happy to subsidise the war economy in order to keep arms manufacturers in the money.
All those arms good for the country were they? Brought world peace did they? Help America prosper did they?
America is subsidised more than the USSR was.
I started protesting against war at age six in 1970. You wanna try again?
What hyperbole! Gentlemen, stop playing into DIVIDE & RULE POLITICS.
Crony capitalism is the problem. Govn't and Private Industry are to blame.
Money corrupts. It's a fact. The end game of private corruption is absolute monopoly. The end game of public corruption is rewarding those with the most money... oh wait. Do we see the problem here now?
Money doesn't corrupt people. People currupt people.
"You either let them continue unfettered and they use their position to further expand their power making efficiency immaterial (and you get Exxon running the world)and it's crony capitalism"
That's just it, though....in a truly free market, what you just described is not possible. The only way to reach crony capitalism is through the very government interference you offer as the alternative choice. In a truly free market, an expanding market participant will only be able to grow if it offers greater quality/efficiency/etc than its competitors.
Our main problem in this regard is that we've never had a truly free market, devoid of government intervention beyond simply facilitating interstate commerce. Thus, the problem is one of human nature, and the ageless desire to gain advantage over others through the leveraging of government force.
"In a truly free market, an expanding market participant will only be able to grow if it offers greater quality/efficiency/etc than its competitors."
Do you know what 'monopolistic power' is?
Do you know what 'purchasing power' is?
Can your small (and efficient) oil drilling firm outbid Exxon for prospect land?
Can your small and efficient supermarket afford loss leaders on bread and milk to get customers in the store?
Like i said before - you're looking at the small mom and pop stores on the high street and assuming this is the world.
You're ignoring the giant conglomerate which has just opened up and killed off the trade with it's superior size.
Unless you're suggesting deliberatley 'knocking down' the successful companies - then you're imagining a world that is impossible.
We've never had free markets misunderstands completely the aims of the free market participants.
A large part of the problem is that governmental regulation shields companies from prosecution or civil actions related to defrauding and abusing citizens.
In a free market system, companies would be subject to the rule of law. If Exxon or BP dumps oil on your property, the government doesn't step in to protect them. You can take them to court as a citizen with a lawful complaint.
Without state protection, companies that run on fraud and abuse would be brought down by the very customers and clients they defraud and abuse.
"Without state protection, companies that run on fraud and abuse would be brought down by the very customers and clients they defraud and abuse."
yeah - AFTER you've already suffered!!!!
Are you all so naeive?
In a free market I could set up a company today selling 'miracle cure' - which is a combination of acid and bile.
When I've sold it to your town, you're right, I won't be able to sell it again - I'll move on to the next town where nobody knows yet.
Meanwhile your town won't be reproducing much anymore as the side effects of miracle cure will impair your sperm production and make women infertile.
This used to happen in the US - until the Government felt it had to do something about it due to the complaints from citizens.
The Government didn't wake up one day and decide "we're going to interfere" - the call usually comes from the consumer.
you have to be pretty dense, or desperately misguided, not to see this is the inevitable result.
The citizens complain to the government, because they are hard wired to do so. It's all most of them have ever known. But now, the problems have gotten too big for the government to handle. People are in for a rude awakening. Five years from now, we'll see how many Greeks trust the government to take care of them from cradle to grave.
As for answering to defrauded and injured customers, it's not just effective on the back end. Business is about risk management. If you know the government will protect you, you take more risk. If you know that your actions will have real consequences, a company will be less likely to engage in fraudulent, dangerous, and unethical behavior. That's risk management 1010.
Is this a bug or a feature? A self-regulated gene pool might not be all bad.
That's how it works in a free market system. Without their government cronies to protect them, even large firms are subject to the rule of law.
We've never had a free market system. But sure, keep living in your academic bubble full of formulas and equations that look so good on paper. You sound just as crazy as those "commies" who kept on saying, "Yea, but that's how it is supposed to work in a truly communist state". It's a dream.
"Soviet Communism didn't fail because it was evil. It failed because it was flawed. It allowed too few people to usurp too much power. Capitalism in America will fail for the exact same reason. Both are edifices created by human intellect and undone by human nature." - Arundhati Roy
The means by which the large companies and banks become tyrannical monsters is through the usurpation of state power. It's the crony part of crony capitalism that causes the ills of the world.
The Founders saw this coming and devised a system to protect against it. It wasn't until we started throwing away our founding principles for fairytale dreams of endless debt-based growth that the train went off the rails.
Restore the Constitutional Republic, restore prosperity.
sorry -wrongo--- crony capitalism is a form of monopoly. You get monopolies from power brokers and that means corercion ( the ultimate tool of governments). Corruption is the misuse of power-which by definition is a disease of gov't. Crony capitalism is a product of govt--not the market and use of capital.
"Crony capitalistm is a product of the gov't--not the market and use of capital"
Yea, and while you were sitting behind your sweet little definition of what "crony capitalism" was, the MARKET and CAPITAL swooped in and bought off the government.
FOLLOW THE MONEY. LOGIC is your friend.
Why can't we just be proud that we have the best government that money can buy? Hell, even the Supremes say it's okay to buy votes.
Even Adam Smith noted that sellers could not get together without colluding against everyone else to raise prices.
It's also interesting that whilst 'coerscion' is on the list of no, no's for free market capitalism - deception isn't.
There is a serious confusion between free market and perfect market.
Those who advocate free markets are basically saying that "some people will have to be sacrificed to obtain the information required to make an informed decision"
This is not exactly freedom for everyone is it?
So Crock what do you suggest? Easy to find reasons not to...
I suggest educating folks about freedom, electing Ron Paul and making yourself as independent as possible from the crony capitalist. Support local business, shop at farmers markets, have one parent stay home and home school the kids rather than support the public education system and deliver more money into the hands of politicians and bankers.
In other words, think globally and act locally but do it from a position of self reliance not as a plea for your government overlords to do the right thing (because they never will).
+
I'm sorry Crock you make some good points but our populace educating its young is one scary and terribly ridiculous thought. Can you imagine if half the population did this!? If you think our children are falling behind the rest of the world now.....that would be disastrous.
I don't think the stats bear that out. From what I recall home schooled kids tend to test better than their public school counterparts.
No, on the whole that's not accurate when controlled for SES (poverty), but it's irrelevent anyway. The "tests" are created by test publishers who are intimately integrated into the public schooling system. Tests are designed to sort.
Public schooling is almost a complete waste of time. What they teach in a week can be taught at home in a day with lots of time left over for independent study, work and play.
Nothing educates you better for living than life itself.
Ah! So, there it is. You live in a fantasy world and advocate "solutions" that will never be implemented. I've been trying to figure out how your views have been so bifurcated. This explains it. One o' these days you need to get out of the theoretical realm, get down on Main Street, and realize that destruction is the only answer. What you advocate can be done! But not within the existing framework of either financial or political realities.
Rocky, have you had a full frontal lobotomy or what? Does that kind of rhetoric sell down at the coin store these days or is my sarcasm meter completely out of whack?
My point: You are not going to get anything that you propose... period. Not in this political/economic environment. You might as well be saying that world peace is the answer. The things that you want will only come about with the total removal of the current system. That's all I'm saying. Sure, there are plenty of solutions, but not practical ones that can be implemented due to the refusal of the system to overcome inertia. You are wanting to have a knife fight at 50 paces, safe but ineffective.
I'm not totally lost on your sentiment here, but I am more willing to let parents have control over their own family's education than to let the Feds control it. Will some fail? Sure -- many fail now with the existing system which was never designed to educate children, but to sort them. Does good education happen in the public school system anyway? Sure, despite what government bureaucrats and corporate privateers impose in the name of "school reform."
If OWS had stuck to "End the Fed" almost everyone would be on board. When they go to free education, health care, guaranteed $20/hour communism / socialism / pick your flavor of totalitarianism, I'm out. I'll take a Capitalist Republic over any other government any day. If we can restore the Rule of Law, we can fix much of the mess.
Just because ZH has been banging the truth for the past 2 years , does not mean things have changed one bit.
SImilarly, just because a few people of OWS have made some comments, does not mean the end result will be anything like that...or even if there will be a result.
For me they both are mere tools to increase awareness...and should ideally support each other even if they differ in their final goals.
#OWS does, i would think, appeal to the idealism in all of us (we wld hope!) and at the very least gives people a chance to see the Wall St. v. Main Street needs for and legitimate claims upon the nation's wealth and resources played out on location and somewhat dramatically. so yes, given the amount of lies and utter bullshit we've been fed while "Wall Street"'s gamblers lost pretty much all their own and many others' capital and wealth, too, and then their losses were socialized and/or "covered for a while" by our goobermint, just DO it!
but on a practical level, the "other side" may actually benefit the most, at least in the short term, and possibly very much longer, and critically so
why? b/c their "messages" about why they are for Main Street now are being deflected and minimized by the MSM. the "design" of #Occupy Wall Street was to get the flip-flops and tennies in there. but it will be up to journalists to fight out the meanings and the why's
the meaning is that these fine freaking folk want the priorities re-set to Main Street. and they have many personal and individual reasons and ideas about what the fuk would be better than this corpo-fascist bankster-pol-fiancial-miltary crap!
so it's Main Street ready to kick Wall Street's mofo ass, which is fight club, BiCheZ! and also "my voice and ideas count" on the personal level
i think if people language the get-togethers in these terms or something like them, it might help get a more focused message into play
Unreasonable to expect people who've never been able to get a decent job and don't have much prospect of doing so in the foreseeable future to understand the workings of the federal reserve especially considering that almost no one else does. They can understand they are getting screwed by the system in general. The fact that they got off the couch and did something is pretty impressive regardless of their coherency or lack thereof.
Space Ghost avatar +1
Coast to coast baby!
Bravo. I think that is is important for each of us to look for similarities rather than differences between ourselves and the folk down on the ground there at OWS. Sitting behind my keyboard here is real safe -- too safe. Easy to crank up the hate and rhetoric but hard to suffer the cold nights coming, the mace, and the white-shirt abuse. I'm for the OWS folk, regardless of their political or financial circumstances because of one situation: They are there and I'm not. The useless "man on the street" interviews done by the media will contribute to the bias. Just watch the people in the background to see the truth. The truth will come from the most financially ignorant among them, the most unwashed, the least "organized", the least credible.
Someone said to me the other day that things will never change in the USA because the divide and conquer strategy used by the establishment over the past four decades or so has been so effective that it's become permanently engraved in our culture.
When nothing changes, nothing changes.
Same as it ever was.
I don't know why, but with all the hits on this topic, I'm thinking we will see more OWS exposure on ZH.
I disagree. Read the manifesto at the top of the ZH home page. The point is to enlighten and shine a light on the dark corners of corruption, greed, and hubris.
This movement will either wither away and become a footnote is history or will be "patient zero" of a viral movement that wll be talked about for generations. There has been violent suppression of protests in the past (Kent State) and it will take more than a few incidents for this to become something more than an amusing sideshow. It will in any case be interesting to see how it plays out. I can't envision an endgame where the system is reset. Not enough hungry people on the streets yet...
At this point the "movement" just a potentiality, which is more than there's been for a couple of generations.
ann coulter on zero hedge? occupy wall street has a very big point. the tea party were taken over by establishment right more or less. not impressed.
And occupy wallstreet started life as the establishment left. It wasn't organic , it's bankrolled by unions and barry's buddies. Not impressed.
At least the tea party had a solid foundation before it was hijacked.
Says it all. I still support this movement but there's no doubt it's a tool of the left now. As the Tea party is of the right. The two party system just owns the 80% of the country who is too weak to think for themselves. When I see the support Obama signs it makes me sick. Can you imagine if Bush was bombing 6 middle eastern countries at once. The phrase war monger jumps to mind. Quick note for the occupy wall street group. You might not want to sleep in until noon if you want to be taken seriously.
The Tea Party is a loose manifestation of an underlying populist mood - at it's core, it's about an end to corruption and a restoration of the Constitution. End the Fed is part of that, throwing out incumbents is part of it, and fighting Obamacare is as well. The OWS movement is astroturf, designed to prep the country for the Presidential election and all that entails.
If all Tea Party organizations and events ended today, those involved would start over tomorrow, and they're going to vote like you have never seen before next year.
Yep, and after the vote when they get screwed they will prepare for the next savior of our corrupt system.
And the next, etc.
The voting system is to keep the plebes in line so they never have to admit that they are getting screwed by the system. That is why voting is there. Not to change anything. But to support your cognitive dissonance.
It is always a few bad apples. Never the system.
How many bad apples do you have to taste until you stop biting into them?
pods
There is a possible positive from all of this - the destruction of the concept of "someone" saving things, and the recognition that corrution stems from such a concept. If you don't put your faith, or hope, or expectations in "someone" taking care of you, then you recognize you must care for yourself. When we continue to rely on others (i.e. the government) we become slaves.
It's the same old war of decentralized Liberty vs. centralized Tyranny.
I put my faith in myself, not in some "leader". This is why I am a Capitalist, instead of one of the many permutations of socialist (communist, fascist, etc.).
populist/alternative left and right both have a problem with the money in politics, the lobbying, and the big multinational corporations controling everything. we both have problems with monsanto or halliburton....so lets connect where we can to make the world a better place and try at the same time not to piss each other off in the process where we disagree.
Wow, you have to give the oligarchs credit. They are masters at dividing people. Whatever, they can't keep all the balls they are juggling in the air indefinitely and they can't protect their house of cards from any light breeze forever. No need to protest or fight. Just prepare and enjoy the show.
They have $40,000 in donations - not much of a bankroll. Individual hedge fund managers pass more than that out in campaign contributions daily.
Well at least one of the kids out there was ranting about being robbed by inflation since 1913. Fiat isn't real money, gold and silver is. He was a ron paul supporter too. But regardless he spoke the truth about the gov stealing our money through currency debasement.
No, it's funded by me, my brother and my kids partially. Go here to do the same
http://nycga.cc/donate/Yes and now Soros, Michael Moore and everyone else will be out there to use these people as their own publicity stunt.
Soros et al already are... Follow the money trail. I think the overall goal is a big short on America paying off for them. The ows crowd are just useful tools. If this guy gave a crap about them, he could waft a little $$$ their way so they could continue their indolent ways... Don't get me wrong, not in favor of cops who abuse people, but we cannot have anarchy either. Quaint but true- use your vote until it works.
People can only be used if they allow it. Rest assured the OWS folks are done with being used. Sure, those with an agenda will do their best to co-opt the movement, but trying doesn't guarantee success. Don't equate the two.
"the tea party were taken over by establishment right more or less."
As a Tea Party member I'm not sure where this idea comes from. It has no basis in fact. The "Cut, Cap, and Balance" was a result of the Tea Party. It got passed in the House because of the pressure that the Tea Party put on the members. When Bohner passed his own crap in the Senate the Tea Party was pissed and come election time a lot of supporters of Boehner are going to be ousted. The Tea Party is still independent - the only hijacking attempt I was was when Romney tried to align with us and he was quickly shown the door. We're still here. We're still angry. And we're going to vote in force for the same idealogy we had from the beginning. We aren't watered down.
If you think you've made a difference and that voting in the future will make a difference, then apparently you also still have no clue.
See my comment above. Like water against rock, enough time or force and the vote can change things.
That is a good argument for prayer which I'm not opposed to. My God, you people are clueless. You have no idea the extent and corrupting power of Washington, DC. No clue.
Uh, yes, I do. I have been screwed over on a local level by zoning nazis who refused to enforce zoning code on an adjoining property that was operating a junk/recycling business on a property zoned residential. The zoning officials father was a long time friend of the junk owner... Guess what? I got cited for having a boat stored on my property that I'd kept there for ten years with never a complaint until I stirred 'em up. So yeah, I do have a clue about corrupt politicos and their cronies. You change it by steady pressure and light on the SOBs. And, you don't buy property in Independence, Ky...
You've experienced a little local corruption so you know Washington, DC? Just keep voting and one day... You're fooling yourself.
Hell, I've even ridden the little senate subway car in DC. I have a friend who is a lobbyst. I think I have a vague idea... Oh Gee, listen! Obumma says he's gonna be fightin every step of the way to make sure TPTB don't abuse the little guy. He's even "lost some political capital". Dang! I feel better now...
Okay then you're trying to fool other people. Whatever, have fun with that! It doesn't matter.
So what you're saying is that things like Supreme Court Justice appointments, Obamacare, economic stimulus packages, welfare, gays in the military etc etc are all going to be handled the same regardless of the party in power? Here's a clue - elections do have consequences. We've seen for 2.5 years now what happens when you're ideas suck ass. Exponential debt - TRILLIONS more in debt and not a damn thing to show for it.
sarah palin and michelle bachman
Tea Party was financed by the establishment Right.
Ann Coulter is a hateful human being. Oh wait, scratch human being.
I knew everything I needed to know about her when I found out she had a Muslim boyfriend. Hypocrite.
Huh, didn't know Ann Coulter was gay.
Self description is your speciality, Sally? Silly Sally!
laissez faire capitalism is a huge leviathon with innumerable tentacles oppressing many, and lifting up a few.
Why should the occupy wallstreet protestors have a singular message? The media wants a singular message so they can edit it into soundbites--don't want to take up too much time away from commercials.
If there was a succint message it would be this: the system has left us behind, despite our best efforts. And it will leave you behind, next, unless you act.
Cronyism is anything but "laissez faire." What we have is a crony system where the central bank controls everything. Go ahead and just try to start a business. You will find out in a big hurry that we have nothing like "laissez faire."
This is so true - I think the OWS lot should deliberately NOT have a message.
It clearly pisses the establishment off not being able to start a discrediting campaign.
I mean look at what 'America - land of the free' is up to.
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/10/john-stewart-detained-interrogat...
Refused entry to the US because he might incite protests - I'd say you're already into a fascist regime folks.
Your the fool - it was the progress of man DESPITE capitlaism that produced such advances.
Did man invent the wheel because Capitalism encouraged him to do so?
All capitalism has done is ensured that the progress of some (the West) was greater at the expense of others (the third world) - and now they're coming for their revenge.
Only someone with intelligence can see why attributing the progress of the last few hundred years to Capitalism is so absurd.
The USSR were the first people in space - was that because of free market enterprise?
Magellen was the first to sail around the world - was that due to free market enterprise?
Even Armstrong on the moon was due to a state run effort - not because it was profitable.
All of man's greatest achievements had to be done outside of free market capitalism - you fool.
All FMC brought you was a new shiny skin for your MP3 player and you wet your pants over it because you're all about the look - nothing about the substance.
Dude, have you looked around lately?
When someone else tells you how much of that fruit of your labor you can keep, that ain't freedom.
And if that fruit can be sued by the government and confiscated with no charges even brought up upon the one in possession, there ain't no LIBERTY!
pods
Hey dude - when you have a system where i can sell bad meat to you and the only thing you can do in return is "not shop here again" - it's not very helpful when you're dying of botcholism.
Regulation occurs because the consumer eventually needs protecting. Look up the regulations for selling meat in London in the Middle ages. Free market ended because strangely people were unhappy about being poisoned by bad meat.
What would the free market suggest you do in that situation?
How can people come on zero hedge, see and agree the whole system is collapsing - but ignore the path which brought us here?
Free markets always end up being regulated - otherwise things would get very messy.
Didn't like the car I sold you without brakes? - tough - don't shop here again.
Didn't like the dog food I sold as mince? - Tough - don't shop here again.
Didn't like the fact I sold you a water filled battery which exploded scarring your face? - tough - don't shop here again.
That's your Lassez Faire free market world - it lasted about 5 minutes.
Sorry, I may be mistaken but where have I spouted off about a free market solving all the world's problems?
Just because I argue a point, it does not make the counter-point my position.
The poster's point was that this nation is a land of liberty. I noted a couple of examples as to why it is not.
I made no mention about free markets, laissez faire, or the like.
But to illustrate how absurd your points are, why is it that there is murder if the government has made it a crime?
pods
Was your reference to keeping the fruits of your labour not a reference to free market enterprise?
Apologies if it wasn't.
You might argue that despite murder beign a crime, it still goes on - but do you think there would be less, or more murder if the Government removed the law?
The bottom line is I would rather be accountable to my own community than either a state, or a faceless 'private' capitalist. Not recognising your slave master doesn't mean you're any less a slave.
The keeping of the fruits of one's labor is a pillar of liberty. If you do not own the products of your labor, or someone else has first claim, you do not have liberty.
The world would not be a better place without a government. That is why the free people's of this land set one up.
The accumulation of capital is synonymous with the accumulation of power. And that power has been used to co-opt the government.
I am of the opinion that murder happens irrespective of the laws against it.
And I am against all forms of organized power. Whether they be private or public.
They both lead to tyranny, as they both attract those who wish to use power to coerce others to behave in a way that they deem appropriate.
pods
It would be nice if you could stick to one thing at a time, instead of a shotgun approach to argument, but I'll bite. Let's see:
Selling bad meat - that kills the customer, doesn't it? Not in my rational self interest. Plus, it's a crime in several ways, and nobody said Capitalism was Anarchy - us Capitalists believe in the Rule of Law (just not the Rule of Majority, or what you might call Democracy).
Some regulation is legitimate, but much is not. When regulation is used to ensure a level playing field in the marketplace and to prevent fraud (i.e. selling bad meat would be a fraud on the consumer, and should therefore be illegal) it is not only a good idea, but a necessary one for Capitalism to function. I think you would agree that a law is only good if it is enforced, however, and we have a problem these days with some being prosecuted while others with friends in high places get a free pass. That is not Capitalism, that is Cronyism, or just plain corrupt - and ILLEGAL.
I would argue that the system is collapsing due to a lack of equal justice under the law (14th Amendment) and a corrupt SEC, FBI, CIA, IRS and others. People who have broken the law, in both the public and private spheres, need to be put in prison and their ill-gotten gains should be confiscated. Not fined - confiscate all gain from illegal activity.
Again, nobody thinks there should be no regulation, we think there should be legitimate regulation and enforcement of those regulations.
Quit trying to equate Capitalism and Anarchy, they're not the same thing.
Right you are -- lax enforcement of laws on the books makes a mockery of free markets. CFTC a prime example. See GATA's campaign against JPM and CFTC's Gensler.
Someone plese stick a dick in Ann's mouth.
Make that a Koch.
2 Kochs
there fixed it for you.
Her mouth is certainly sufficiently large (especially for two pencil dicks like the Koch brothers).
Why does anyone listen to Ann Coulter?
Because she has a gift for being pithy, even if her lack of reasoning skills is always on full display.
Yes, Fox and other MSM soma distributors pay a premium for skillful misdirection.
Fuck you Ann, the reason the wall street protesters dont have ONE point is because there are more than one thing wrong with the system and they are affecting each of the 99% differently. Obviously you are one of the 1% so you won't have to subject yourself to living on the street to make protests and be grateful for supporters that take you in so you can get a shower.
Again Fuck you!
"there are more than one thing wrong with the system "
I agree: there are many things "wrong"
But there is only 1 CAUSE. A leveraged, privately controlled money supply.
Until people come to understand and embrace this point, there will always be many things wrong. All of these problems are SYMPTOMS of the DISEASE.
Nothing can be accomplished until a mass understanding is acheived on this point. The plebes will continue to fight back and forth for a better position WITHIN THE CURRENT SYSTEM because they are too ignorant/complacent/biased/whatever to question the flawed DESIGN OF THE SYSTEM itself.
Is not the main point of occupy wall street to re-elect Obama?
Logic fail.
Show your work fail.
Yes, they also failed to show their work in addition to an inability to reason.
Inability to respond to legitimate criticism fail.
It's "work, in addition to" Frosty.
What you wrote, says he failed an inability to reason.
And indeed he did. Obama has coddled Wall St for three years...why would these people want him re-elected?
For what he says, not what he does.
Because not re-electing Obama would be racist?
Hey, speaking of "show your work", check out these beauty queens speaking out on the controversial topic of teaching math.
http://video.l3.fbcdn.net/cfs-l3-snc4/356208/714/294099480615744_48190.mp4?oh=eca43684920676bd3c604910218244e8&oe=4E906C00&l3s=20111006081800&l3e=20111008082800&lh=0fe3a1234f059d81b83b9
Logic presented.
http://www.infowars.com/occupy-wall-street-stands-in-solidarity-with-obama-front-group/
If no one is willing to march on the white house for approving these policies that we both agree have benefited the banksters and wall st. then what other conclusion can one make?
Why would being dissuaded from the core problem help?
The core problem is socialism runs out of money eventually. Have a good day.
Funny, Ms. Thatcher...corporate fascism has the same problem!
Yeah, pretty much. I never realized Hugo Chavez graduated from Cal.
Hmmm...not quite. I don't favor nationalization or suppressing journalists.
And I didn't go to Cal...just a bear who likes gold (I've tried switching avatars, but the Tylers' servers have cached the Cal logo and, depending on which one you get, you either get this icon or the new one...oh well, I'll just keep 'splainin to those who make assumptions).
The confiscation of wealth is what occurs and at the end of the day we'll agree to disagree on this subject and probably many others.
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/10/matt-stoller-the-anti-politics-of...
Funny, why no protests in Washington DC?
Because somebody told the protesters that WS is the only demon.
If "We are the 99%" is too difficult for Coulter, how about this: separation of business and governtment.
I've never cared for Coulter, however, how does OWS get to claim "we are the 99%" when I'm part of the 99% and I'm not with them? If you look at history you'll find that most people who claimed to speak for the people ended up leading the people to either shearing or slaughter.
Shhh, forcing them to go beyond 'intuitive' sound bites makes their heads hurt
Indeed.
So you approve of politicians being beholden to the finance sector and the continuation of oligarchic control of the US?
I don't approve of politicians, period.
Well if you're going to tilt at that windmill, you'll do little besides tire yourself out, but if you admit that ridding ourselves of all politicians isn't exactly feasible (in a representative democratic republic), wouldn't it be better to have representatives that are elected by the people instead of annointed by Goldman and JPM?
There's definitely room to haggle on their methodology (as demonstrated..pun...by the chorus of voices present), but the unifying theme of the intended goal really isn't that different across the political spectrum. Whether you believe that government is spending too much, regulating too little, starting too many wars, etc ad nauseam, there isn't much room to dispute that the status quo is enabled and directed by the moneyed interests of Wall St and that it will remain as such unless and until that stranglehold is corrected.
I HEARTILY ACCEPT the motto, — "That government is best which governs least" and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe, — "That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have.
But, to speak practically and as a citizen, unlike those who call themselves no-government men, I ask for, not at once no government, but at once a better government. Let every man make known what kind of government would command his respect, and that will be one step toward obtaining it. --Thoreau
And OWS are making known what kind of government would command their respect. There's that dependent clause to contend with though..."when men are prepared for it".
Would you concede that neither you nor the OWS throng will get what you desire until Wall St loses its grip on the electoral process?
When OWS becomes OWDC I'll believe their interest in a better government.
Then you will continue to be a shill for the true powers that be. Keep attacking that puppet though...it keeps the puppetmasters safe.
Puppets my ass. Call them what they are - Crooks.
As am I when I disagree with the apparent goals of OWS. I never said that they should be stopped or stomped I simply believe that they are misguided in both their tactics and their goals.
All I can tell you is that when the system comes crashing down I'll be prepared to get as much freedom as I can. Then I intend to hold onto it. Part of the plan is to be a reasonable voice for freedom amongst my friends and neighbors so that we can work together to build and maintain a civil society based on peace and individual freedom. Government action will never change anything although I do hold out that last little bit of hope that my man Ron can get in there and do some good things before the fall. At least with Ron at the helm we can be sure that FEMA camps won't be a certain follow up to the coming economic and societal crash.
simply put it would be a people that has power over their gov't as opposed to a gov't having power over its people.
simply put it would be a people that has power over their gov't as opposed to a gov't having power over its people.
some of Wall street protesters may have lost there jobs, but they do have a point!
Can you clarify that point?
They are pissed off with government, FED, banksters and got up from their sofas, good on them!
part of democracy is to show when you're not happy
So far so good. But what solutions do you think a group that includes Michael Moore* and public teachers' unions will propose?
*Fahrenheit 9/11 was a fine film. Credit where credit is due.
The point doesn't matter. The system fails from the inside outside paradox. It has to feed on the outside but there's not enough outside left. When the market crashes all it will do is feed on it's own banks and it's own hedge funds and it's own corporations. It's 20 huge banks trying to get blood out of a turnip. They can't feed on thier own because there's nothing there but debt that can't be repaid.
That's why I won't turnip at the protest and let them bleed me.
Art, love history. He should remeber then that the founding fathers didn't have a plan either. They just didn't like what was going on and they started to rally around what ever they could, taxes and such. These protesters just know something isn't right and a good place to begin is Wall street. Which has gone from an engine of growth and capitol to a rigged crap shoot.
At least they are standing up.Their not running around paying off politicians, it's real organic emotional stuff. Something not seen in America for a long long time.
He should remeber then that the founding fathers didn't have a plan either. They just didn't like what was going on and they started to rally around what ever they could, taxes and such.
Not even close to being partially true.
In other news, The Beatles, Miles Davis and Picasso weren't just flailing around in the dark either and by spouting gibberish and pissing on yourself you're not standing on their shoulders or carrying their legacy forward.
BeLogical, you need to be educated.
The Founding Fathers had foundational principals and philosophies they could articulate on request.
OWS, and almost all their ZH supporters, repeatedly prove they posses neither.
OWS = ontological wing-nuts screaming.
"... it's real organic emotional stuff."
Like Oprah?
Isn't it great the way that shisters like Ann coulter patronise those who have finally stood up to the banksters - well done Ann - you'll make a general in Hitlers army for your asshat comments.
The tea partiers 'point' is actually one based on an unconfirmed believe in something called 'God' - at least the protestors have reality on their side (or are you going to deny the existence of the depression?)
I'm a Teabaggin' atheist. Try again.
Whoa. How do you manage when the rest of the movement kisses the Ass of Jesus at any and every opportunity?
And yeah, i'd take a blowjob from Jesus before Coulter any day.
I don't think that was the intention behind "Love thy neighbor". ;)
We simply agree to disagree.
The irony of so-called Christians spending so much energy on anti-Christian policies is both sad and amusing. They really don't understand that they're the Romans.