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Game Over? Reuters Says Germany, France Exploring Idea Of Core Euro Zone, End Of Existing Structure
If anyone needed the proper epitaph for the insane stupidity out of Europe, Reuters may have just provided it. In an exclusive article, Reuters stuns us with the following: "German and French officials have discussed plans for a radical overhaul of the European Union that would involve establishing a more integrated and potentially smaller euro zone, EU sources say. French President Nicolas Sarkozy gave some flavour of his thinking during an address to students in the eastern French city of Strasbourg on Tuesday, when he said a two-speed Europe -- the euro zone moving ahead more rapidly than all 27 countries in the EU -- was the only model for the future." It gets much worse: "The discussions among senior policymakers in Paris, Berlin and Brussels go further, raising the possibility of one or more countries leaving the euro zone, while the remaining core pushes on towards deeper economic integration, including on tax and fiscal policy." Not sure how to further clarify this: Europe is preparing for its own end, and the dissolution of the existing structure of the Eurozone, which likely means an end to the EU in its current format, a reshaping of the customs union, and the overhaul of the zEURq.PK in its current form. Ironically, this may end up being favorable for the Euro... and detrimental for Germany. So the question is: will Germany go for it? At this point, it probably has no choice, unless it wants a mutiny on its hands.
More from Reuters on this shocker:
A senior EU official said changing the make-up of the euro zone has been discussed on an "intellectual" level but had not moved to operational or technical discussions, while a French government source said there was no such project in the works.
Such steps are also opposed by many EU countries, whose backing would be needed for any adjustments to the bloc's treaties, making them anything but a done deal.
"This will unravel everything our forebears have painstakingly built up and repudiate all that they stood for in the past sixty years," one EU diplomat told Reuters. "This is not about a two-speed Europe, we already have that. This will redraw the map geopolitically and give rise to new tensions. It could truly be the end of Europe as we know it."
Nonetheless, the Franco-German motor has generally been the driving force in steps forward for European integration.
To an extent the taboo on a country leaving the 17-member currency bloc was already broken at the G20 summit in Cannes last week, when German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Sarkozy both effectively said that Greece might have to drop out if the euro zone's long-term stability was to be maintained.
But the latest discussions among European officials point to a more fundamental re-evaluation of the 12-year-old currency project -- including which countries and what policies are needed to keep it strong and stable for the next decade and beyond -- before Europe's debt crisis manages to break it apart.
In large part the aim is to reshape the currency bloc along the lines it was originally intended; strong, economically integrated countries sharing a currency, before nations such as Greece managed to get in.
And so forth. Read the full thing here.
In other news: euroskeptics - take a bow. We truly can't wait for Abrose Evans Pritchards' and Nigel Farage's responses to this news.
As usual, the Economist summarizes it best with one cover.
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I think this sums up investor sentiment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_eZmEiyTo0
Angela and Nicolas deciding the fate of Europe, not sure whether to laugh or cry.
it'll be fun watching them fight over who will wear the crown!
LOL- The Euro as we know it is toast. It's like kicking the bad states outy of the US. Bottom line!
WHo's eating the losses....tick, tick, tick... kaboom!!. Nobody realizes this yet!
Not satisfied with Federalism Zero™? Try new Federalism Lite™!
The EU, in a last attempt to rescue their superfluous jobs , will announce a 17-Speed Eurozone.
Ooops !
Once upon a time, a mustached man in Europe also had a dream of a "Superstate"....and the rest is, as they say, history.
c'est la vie....
(deep sigh)
are christmas trees in europe fee free? or, is that a tan-on-bum you've got there?
What in the world keeps the Euro from comepletly collapsing when you hear this?
Pure manipulation control, the same thing that keeps the S&P from its proper place in the 300's.
As a Saxon, never. We will join the UK.
and in jumps Merkie: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/09/us-eurozone-idUSTRE7A831520111109
Read:
"Since the existing EURO plan didn't quite kill off all the sovereign nations with paralyzing debt we are going to try something even more radical to get the rest."
The market is ranging around, ignoring this and all other bad news, and patiently waiting for any tepidly positive headline that can be used as cover for another massive PPT cash injection. But is it coming this time? I hope so because I am looking forward to a short at close ready for the next bond explosion tomorrow. Come on boys!
This also explains why China did not come in and buy the fucking dip.
The best option for Italy is to leave euro like United Kingdom
Translation.
We are closer to achieving failure than we ever have been before.
failure...that's uh...bullish right?
Cue the Edith Piaf for the kick....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3Kvu6Kgp88
\m/ \m/
Why not a Euro zone with different currencies? Simply print Euros with great big letters of origin over the top: GREECE, IRELAND, GERMANY, FRANCE, etc. Add bar codes. Establish currency trading and let rip. Pretty soon they will all seek equilibrium. Everything else would remain the same.
The U.S. printed HAWAII dollars after Dec 1941 so that the Japanese could not reuse the currency if they took over the island.
http://www.bagofnothing.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/hdollar...
You mean like 17 National Currencies we had before the Euro?
.... when everything was fine !
"Everything else would remain the same." ???
Yes, except we'd still have to pay the Salaries of those bEUrocrats !
No thanks.
It's like a bad marriage. Just file for divorce, let your wife take 50%, and move on.
yeah but remember, you never really know your wife...until you meet her attorney.
or her artillery
You hear that noise boys? That's the sound of guillotines being sharpened!
The other, perhaps planned, goal of all this is to make the entire situation so bad that all involved are begging for a coherent answer. This is when they will 'suddenly' realize that they can not make the EU work while there are so many different governments and budgets all working in opposite directions. Just when everybody is about ready to jump off the Tower of Pisa they will announce a 'new' plan to combine all governments and all fiscal houses into one 'government'. A ruling council will be created that will be filled by perhaps 2 reps from each country and be chaired by a member (most likely German) of the council that is chosen by the rest of the council. So, there you have it; the Germans will rule Europe without a shot being fired. The plan all along.
Just thought I'd throw this out there ....so rip it up now.
There is no Germany. Like Italy, it is an idea.
North part of Germany has nothing in common with the South. It is not a nation, it would break.
There is no Germany. Like Italy, it is an idea.
North part of Germany has nothing in common with the South. It is not a nation, it would break.
care to flesh that out a little more there fella? that there's some pretty whacky statement.
You think Bavarians are the same as Prussians? Canadians and Americans are more alike than they are. It took an armed conflict in the 19th Century to convince them. Not so different from what happened in the "unification" of Italy.
Any Plan will likely boot out the ClubMed countries at a minimum, and might not include France if their banks are proven bankrupt after Italy is laid waste. Europe could divide at the Danube, pretty much the way it was at the peak of the Roman Empire, with "prudent" manufacturing economies in the north going it alone while the rest of Europe enjoys a revisit to the Middle Ages.
Wouldn't that be fun.
And Russia will move to protect its "historical allies" in Eastern Europe. Buh-bye Poland.
Talks of currency reform make it into the mainstream press in Germany.
in German:
http://www.focus.de/finanzen/doenchkolumne/schuldenkrise-die-naechste-wa...
What will be the reaction in the US and the rest of world if everyone in the world realizes the paper in their pocket and the digital dollars in their bank accounts can lose tremendous value instantly should a currency fail? IMO the central bankers around the world will print and dilute as it is a slower death (kinda of like a frog not jumping out of the water as it boils). In the alternative, the citizens will come at these bankers with guns and knives.
What will be the reaction in the US and the rest of world if everyone in the world realizes the paper in their pocket and the digital dollars in their bank accounts can lose tremendous value instantly should a currency fail? IMO the central bankers around the world will print and dilute as it is a slower death (kinda of like a frog not jumping out of the water as it boils). In the alternative, the citizens will come at these bankers with guns and knives.
So the strong european countries move to control their currency - i want a piece of that .If the Germans can rid themselves of the PIIGS their currency will be the one to own ---forget the $. The Germans so far seem to be the only ones who know the failures of endless printing .
Why is Germany hitching its wagon to France? France is screwed too.
There is safety in numbers when you see how the Germans managed unification -they can easily pull this off without the dead weight of the PIIGS
Remember Bretton Woods, France and Germany are tied together by it for whatever reason.
Its all fucked.
That is a problem, Germany is a federal and tribal state. I am a Saxon. We would like Charlemagne to be brought to justice. Hang him, seriously.
The same reason good looking girls always have an ugly girlfriend. It makes them look prettier.
By Merkel calling for a new Europe she's saying the old Europe is bad. So the PIIGS are bad, kick them out. Like the US kicking out CA, IL, MI, NJ. That should work well for investors. It's a matter of real survival now. The strong get to survive while the weak die off.
this isnt bad for germany. they consolidate with the other strong eu nations and jettison the garbage. sure, the euro would remain strong to the detriment of the german exporters, as the weak european nations would have their own monopoly money, but germanys exporting future is to the east..china. the alternative is to continue bailing out countries that have social structural problems that WILL NOT BE SOLVED FOR GENERATIONS....
This is about creating a 'World of Equals" where the "core" is a little bit more equal than everyone else. Every revolutionary movement needs to dig a mote around themselves to consolidate radical thinking. This Core Euro-zone is that kind of idea.
There is the UN, and then there is the Security Council that really runs things.
Same thing here.
These guys are making the rules up as they go along, but the End Game is always the same and will be successful. What force is stopping the bankster class from consolidating global power in the hands of a few unelected corporate hands?
This is a War. A War for the bondage of the Human Spirit, not money or anything else.
Its no different than what has been going on across the "third world" for hundreds of years.
Now chickens are coming home to roost.
"...Every revolutionary movement needs to dig a mote around themselves to consolidate radical thinking... ."
In other words it's a tactical retreat on the part of the Illuminati.
I don't think a mote is going to be enough. Perhaps y'all should have them use a moat. Put in some croccodiles too. :-)
"Look we still have our old currency. We can use that again."
DOW chart reveals very overextended price action and another Wile E Coyote scenario...
http://stockmarket618.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/2011-11-09_dow_4_zb.png
Gee where'd all the 'You ZeroHedge Doom'n'Gloomers are about to get kornholed sideways on this bear trap run' Clusterfuckstock guys go.......they were all over the place in here yesterday.
I think he's scrambling to get out of long positions.
I suspect we're speaking of the same person (and I use the term "person" loosely).
Crying in their beers and, like most gamblers, blaming everyone but themselves.
If you ZH doom and gloomers would just shut up already, we could get on with the recovery.
For many months I am reading what is being written here. Many commentings that are happening in other places use many words and are the expressing of much interesting thinking. Here in this place mostly the comments I am seeing are short and having much siliness. Now I am missing the many talkings about buying the silver and words like taking it out of dead hands that are cold.
Who are the people here who have intelligences because I am having many difficulties finding them.
All your golds and silvers are belonging to us.
Oh no. I have many golds and almost no silvers. I am thinking many of the stupids here are not having as much golds and they are pretending. What to them is many golds is having the same meaning as the way they are thinking their words are having many intelligences which I am meaning that they don't.
I should not be reading so many stupid words and I am having thoughts of stopping doing it.
good idea.
Indeed, well said.
Right, theyre probably just having equity stocks and lying about having the golds.
What you are reading are reactions to shock as people watch another controlled demolition.
Greece, Italy, and Spain are all big into basketball. Once the eurozone throws them out, they can become welfare states 51, 52, and 53..........
@gatoengineer
Zero has to get his 57 states before his term is up.
I think the credit event is upon us...Italy goes Greece will follow very quickly, the time wasting and bullsh*t Greek 'officals' have been applying to the mentally unstable Sarkozy and the weakGerman leader Merkel ends.
We now have a Lehman X1000, HFT's that support the market and suck in momo fat long pos will collapse in a heap.
Yes, but is it a credit event?
...should offically take out China, even though China has been silently 'crashing'. this is the endgame now.
Why game over? That would just be the real beggining.
or begining of the end. Greece was just a market con job, the real deal is the bigger PIIGS. Italy will blow FRance's CDS spreads to hell. THe time wasting on Greek by France/Germany whilst Italy slipped by....I dunno, did Merkel/Sakockhead just blow Italy off? Silvio will be smiling all the way. He can send German/French Italian bond holders to the cleaners, the market knows this hence the dumping. Now Italy will default, leave the EU, go back to the Lira and NO austerity! Sure they become very poor, but when you start at zero...the best option. Greece will do the same as will the rest of the PIIGS. The ESFS fund is dead.
Didn't know you were such an optimist. Did you read the Reuters article?
"Berlusconi has reluctantly conceded that the IMF can oversee reform efforts."
This is a full court press to dissolve national boundaries and place an even less accountable ruling class in power. The subtext is obvious.
Probably major manipulations going on behind the scenes with Berlusconi and other leaders. His parting shot is to give up national sovereignty? Mio Dio!
because once Italy defaults, which is now, the ESFS fund will be buried. Italy, Spain...lets face it the German people hated the idea to create a tax payer leveraged bailout fund. He knows the IMF will issue the loans to Italy. He cans austerity, the Italians reset their economy and maybe he just hangs on to 2013.
he is a player and i think he played France/ Germany really well.
You guys are forgetting the M&M threats on Europe.
M for Muslims who won't like any austerity program that affects them.
M for Moscow which would like to settle some East vs. West scores.
There's going to be some bloodshed.
I predict the euro zone will shrink to 10 members. And their logo will be a beast with 10 horns.
How the hell does France think it's going to be part of the next/new EU when they are the largest holder of Italian shit
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/visualizing-where-pain-summary-biggest-exp...
Only the 1st part of the statement is true - GAME OVER.
+1
Dang, China didn't even make the list. They have been saving their renmenbi powder for garage sale pricing.
I understand Germany returning to the DMark, and I understand that the French don't want to lose their EU subsidy (which their backward farmers extort from funds that Germany and the UK pay into the kitty). But the only way this could work is for Germany to pick up the French subsidy (in reality a subsidy for the mispriced internal currency),or you will have the same problem with France as you have presently with Italy.
WORLDWIDE MARKET CRASH IN 3.....2.....1.......
Has the crash started?
One might expect talk of euro-disintegration like this to trigger bank runs. But there is still an amazingly large amount of money in Greek bank accounts, so maybe not.
If I had any money in a PIIGS bank, I would definitely withdraw it. I guess the average Joe in those countries hasn't yet made the connection yet.
If they ever do, watch out!
Europeans are steeped in history and you can be sure they've made that connection and bank runs are very much on their minds. This can go from ugly to horrible in a split second.
WHEEEEEEEEEEW did y'all make it through??
The beginning of the end.
I'd rather have beeen wrong these last few years than see the EU implode.
In 2012 it's coming to America. Oh well, deal with it.
My latest find:
http://realeconomik.wordpress.com/
Nice day to have been really really short. Hurt that I did it a little too soon yesterday, but ahhhhhh, now it's really nice.
I love the pasta strainer life boat!
AH HA! The old plan of a plan to plan a plan about a plan to plan a plan.
can't find my DOW 11K hat...
...thing was in shreds, anyhow...
====> slewie's.hat.L0L.pic
When you have pile of shit and a fan blowing, you can only delay the inevitable for so long.
How do you put Sarkozy and intellectual level in the same document?
ohhhhh game over for financials... very soon time to BUY BUY BUY
So, FED, ECB, BoE, BoJ, BoCh, etc etc etc...nobody is going to rescue Italy ???
or just banks...and fuck off the countries???
so:
"WHAT IS GOOD TO SAVE ARE JUST BANKS, PEOPLES WITH BIG SALARIES AND VERY RICH PEOPLE" AND ALL THE REST GO TO HELL...OK.. WE WILL SEE...
What is it about France that makes it a part of the "core?" Must be those aircraft carriers.
This reminds me of "good bank, bad bank".
here come the HFT bids...but will Wall Street bid too. Nope. The whole world is about to face the doomsday margin call.
this is bad, real bad...
All that's happening is predictable, as there are 7 stages that every
major economy goes through. Those who know how it works profit & massive
wealth is transferred to them. Several months ago I learned this
information from a millionaire whose site I found & am sharing it with
everyone I know.
His free video
"How To Create Incredible Wealth in Today's Economic Crisis"
is at:
http://theelevationgroup.net/presentation/register.php?a_aid=160667&a_bid=290b868b&chan=y
Hope this info helps everyone as much as it has me.
Dr. Nancy
Yes......finally! Go Germany!
So Germany exports to france and france tries to export to Germany? Euro sails in value. Other European country currencies tank. Germany or France export out of the two country bloc because of strong currency. That doesn't work. Former EU countries would like print like mad. But their debts are denominated in Euros. Well sucks for them. So they have to default. Adding Spain and Italy to Greece starts making counter-party risk a bit high all over the world.
I'm not seeing how this changes the macro picture except to push it off a bit until the market figures out what is going on. Maybe it leaves US and China the last men standing (pretty wobbly but standing). As most US debt is denominated in dollars, US can always inflate it away. So deflation followed by inflation. Same as it ever was . . .
The PIIGS got a major cycle of inflation when EU pushed to end an inflation cycle in Germany that had run from 1998-2002.
The money went south, mainly into real estate. Greek, Italian land prices exploded.
Also wages exploded.
40% inflation.
A $50,000 job in Germany is running at $70,000 in Greece.
Both countries are going through life on the euro. That can't continue.
Blame the PIIGS ??? Whatever floats your boat.
The PIIGS got a major cycle of inflation when EU pushed to end an inflation cycle in Germany that had run from 1998-2002.
The money went south, mainly into real estate. Greek, Italian land prices exploded.
Also wages exploded.
40% inflation.
A $50,000 job in Germany is running at $70,000 in Greece.
Both countries are going through life on the euro. That can't continue.
Blame the PIIGS ??? Whatever floats your boat.
rush to the lifeboats...but france is carrying dead weight and so are german banks...Wait until the shit hits the US..then we'll have the euro titanic and the US Hindenberg in flames.
Within a very few years, any country that ESCAPES the eurozone will realize they are the huge winners in all this. Greece: live free == escape the eurozone!