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Guest Post: Going Off Grid - Montana Style!
Submitted by Brandon Smith from Alt-Market
Going Off Grid - Montana Style!
The concept of off-grid living is often encumbered by numerous false assumptions and associations. Many think that to delve into the lifestyle you must be either a grizzled anti-social mountain man, a pompous starry-eyed hippie, or, a criminal on the lam. The spectrum of characterizations range from “kooky” bunker building militia members to spoiled Al Gore worshipping vegan hipsters out to prove they are better than everyone else by reducing their “carbon footprint”. The point is, for the average television-fed American, the idea of off-grid life automatically conjures visions of the extreme.
I believe this reaction is due in large part to our society’s obsession with feeling “connected”. Ever challenge a friend or family member to go without touching their cell phone for a day? Ever ask them to shut off their TV and see if they can find other ways to occupy themselves? Ever ask them to leave modern conveniences behind, if only for a weekend, to take part in some simple camping? I can say that in my own experience, nine out of ten people will stare at you pale faced like you just kicked them square in the loins. For them, leaving behind the buzz of our make-believe culture is the same as stepping outside of time, or abandoning one’s very identity. The whole suggestion is alien.
Luckily, here in Montana, I’ve encountered far hardier souls than in most other places, and the pursuit of an existence disconnected from dependence on the system is not treated as quite so outlandish. In fact, many here have taken the leap into self-sufficiency and gone 100% off-grid. I was lucky enough to meet one of these pioneers recently, and take a tour of his farm, but what interested me most about him were his origins, which were rooted about as far away from his current environment as you can get…
Rich Scheben was once a highly respected sales associate in the world of big-pharma, who had spent much of his life in the urban landscape of New York. He received accolades for his performance working within titanic companies like Merck and Glaxo, but his dream had always been to pursue a career in forestry. Despite having a degree in the field as well as a long history participating in wilderness sports, he soon discovered that affirmative action quotas within state and federal institutions were stringent. His applications were passed up time and again while others with little to no experience or training were hired immediately because of their politically designated victim-status. The corporate world too was rife with people who climbed upwards on the efforts of more worthy employees, or who were given positions of prominence based on their willingness to schmooze with management, rather than work hard.
Finally, when Rich noticed troubling health difficulties creeping up on him, a fateful doctor’s visit revealed severe damage in his spinal column. The company immediately found out, and sidelined him.
These circumstances led Rich not only to question the structure and meaning of his efforts within the circus-like corporate framework, but to also question the structure and meaning of modern America. Today, he is an avid supporter of the Liberty Movement, a devout Constitutionalist, decidedly anti-corporate oligarchy, and even anti-big pharma. His day-to-day financial existence is built upon savings, sound money, and living below his means. His health habits have taken a 180 degree turn, and he is now subsisting on largely organic and home grown diet. Everything has changed.
Rich Scheben holding a bull trout caught in his backyard
In a beautiful corner of Northwest Montana, Mr. Scheben found a sizable plot of land to begin his off-grid adventure. He recommends varied terrain, rather than flat. The more rough the terrain, the more resources are generally available, and the more privacy you are usually afforded. With hills, valleys, gorges, and even a river, Scheben has an incredible array of land types at his disposal.
The main cabin is a straightforward structure without a lot of the elaborate design often seen in average suburban McMansions. Electricity is provided by a small solar array and a minimal battery bank. I have always said that it does not take much in terms of solar power in order to adequately supply an off-grid retreat or farm, and Rich’s system is a perfect example. With only four deep-cycle batteries charging on a minimal array, Rich is able to fulfill all his electricity needs.
The cabin itself is heated by a single wood stove, which is fueled by cords of wood from timber growing on Scheben’s land. Water is supplied by a well and pump, which is then hoisted to a large tank on the second floor. The tank uses gravity to feed the faucets on the first floor below. Bathroom cleaning is handled in a number of ways. Hot showers can be had using a solar shower filled and placed near the wood stove to warm. Water can be heated and poured into the bathtub. Relieving one’s self is handled in a good old fashioned out-house.
Scheben's wood stove, which adequately heats his entire cabin
Though Rich still stocks bulk foods from town, his farm is completely capable of providing enough food that he would never have to leave if he so desired. His garden area is not immense, and can easily be worked by hand. In fact, it does not take much space at all to grow more than enough produce for a family if needed, and Scheben’s lifestyle proves that if every landowner used a corner of his yard for a garden, centralized farming and food production would disappear. Livestock rounds out the food necessities of Schebens farm, including chickens for meat and eggs, goats for milk and cheese, turkeys, etc. With land surrounded by Montana wilderness, wild game is abundant, and there is little to no chance of Scheben ever going hungry.
Scheben's homemade greenhouse with bathtub for summer bathing
Wild elk roaming through Scheben's property
One issue that is constantly raised when discussing Off-Grid living is that of cost. The problem is that so many people only consider the initial expenditures involved when diving into this new life, but never take into account the extreme SAVINGS involved after they have settled in. Scheben’s daily costs are next to nothing. His land provides nearly every essential imaginable, and the financial drain after setting up shop is minute in comparison to the average suburbanite. This is what preppers in the Liberty Movement need to understand when uncertain about the Off-Grid strategy. Ultimately, it is about providing for yourself for next to nothing what you once had to pay out the nose for!
Going off-grid also does not necessarily mean abandoning technology, and I was glad to see that Scheben felt the same way. He uses LED’s, not hurricane lanterns. He surfs the internet and keeps up with news events, instead of isolating himself in the backwoods from the concerns of the world. He rides ATV’s back and forth across his land, not horses (though horses are great if you can keep them). There is a serious misconception out there that going off-grid or living through a collapse will automatically necessitate a return to a pre-industrial 18th century type of existence. This is simply not so. The technological advances of today should be mixed and melded with the agricultural skills of yesterday. Neither should be hastily cast aside if we are to find balance once again in our culture.
In light of our current chaotic economic situation, as well as the potential for social breakdown, energy crisis, hyperinflation, freight disruption, and global war, the off-grid life is not just a hobby, but a valuable form of insurance. There may come a day when, whether we like it or not, we will all be forced to survive off-grid. Some will be prepared with the expertise required to make it work. Some will have at least a practical understanding of the methods and philosophies that drive decentralized and independent living. Others will not.
Frankly, if a former New York big-pharma salesman like Rich Scheben is able to wake up to the social catastrophe looming in our country’s future, and the extraordinary significance inherent in off-grid knowledge, then anyone can, and the dismissive excuses I hear so often from those who can’t wrap their heads around the importance of this step in the realm of survival, now tend to ring lazy and hollow…
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true statement.
it's easy to live "off the grid" when all the industrial machinery needed to make your stuff is still on the grid. When the shit fries, you just go back "on the grid" to pick up a new appliance from china.
It's total bullshit from smug, self-important douches. As if everyone can have 10 acres and a well...lol.
So you suggest using flint and chert to hunt and cut your meat, and wolf coats as clothes to avoid touching industrial goods???
It is always a pleasure to meet your best friend, Mr. Strawman.
heck no...I am a human, therefore social. I rely on the GRID.
The GRID is still around even in Argentina. I had internet and power in Iceland; so does everyone else. I have no idea where these misanthopes get their kicks.
And this is something coming from Mr. "Sterilize 97% of the population" calling people misanthropes...
Yes, you are quite the hypocrite.
Trav, you know damn well that there is a good chance Argentina is not the outcome we are headed for in the long run. EROEI and out of control population growth are at some point going to render a different outcome. The right place to be (and when) still is unknown. At least Iceland has geothermal. That's a step in the right direction. But, even Iceland I doubt is self-sufficient.
I guess he never Googled "Carrington Event" or "EMP effects...."
It doesn't take any science thriller imagination to see ho the grid(s) can go down. Simple lack of maintance because there's no money to pay to maintain it properly. Google PG&E Gas pipelines to get an idea where this is going.
So, should I not utilize what resources I currently have at my disposal setting myself up with 10 acres and a well?
do whatever you wanna do, man, but don't talk shit about how smart you are for being off the grid when everything you have came from the grid.
I would love to live on a spread like DCFusor has too but I wouldn't go around bragging about how off grid I was when I have chinese solar panels.
No shit-talking coming from me. I actually try to think more in terms of "resiliance" anyway. I love having clean water come out of the tap at the turn of a handle, but I also like having a few hundred gallons of potable water on hand as well as a rain collection and filtration system.
"Self reliant people are idiots."
So sayth the mighty Trav.
Yes, and he derailed the entire conversation.
And imagine, the topic did not even involve silver!
Trolls will be trolls.
And in Trav, you stand before a master of the art.
Yeah... I wonder which agency he works for.
BS. His cookstove is likely made right here in the good old USA. Some of you guys should stop commenting - you expose your total ignorance.
http://www.kitchenqueenstoves.com/kitchenqueenstoves/
specs:
New design reduces creosote buildup to a bare minimum.
Under normal circumstances, virtually no liquid creosote is deposited in the stove.
Two hot water heating systems:a 17 or 25 gallon reservoir that fits neatly on the back of the stove (taking up no extra floor space), or coils for hooking up to a remote storage tank.
Constructed of heavy gauge steel with all seams welded throughout for lifetime airtight construction. Large airtight firebox capable of heating up to 2500sq. ft. Choice of two sizes. Large fire loading door reduces wood splitting. Large even-heating oven.Heat is first directed under the oven to work with natural heat convection.
Porcelain enamel finish High back with 7" or 9" warming shelf keeps things you need handy. Sturdy back shelf. Stay cool spring handles. No splitting or burning off. Porcelain enamel oven liner. Smooth one-piece top with 10 inch lids makes cleaning easier. Grates and ash pan for easy cleaning.That stove is awesome. That would be one of my first purchases for a cabin/bunker type set-up.
That's right, Trav. God bless Amerika and it's GRID. It serves us, so why question or try to view from a diff perspective. Good luck with your grid reliance when the zombies come...
Another "useful idot" -- or cheap entertainment here on the hedge.
what do you mean when the zombies come? he is one of the zombies.
Bingo.
No one is more attuned to the disaster approaching via scarce oil than I am, but frankly, these survivalist people give the rational application of arithmetic to oil or disaster in general a point of embarrassment.
You can't heat a house of significant square footage with a woodstove. Period. Furnaces are built and speced at a certain number of BTUs, because that's how many BTUs it takes. You can't get it from a woodstove, the majority of the heat from which goes out the chimney.
You also have to have power. For what? For the fridge. You shoot a 500 pound of field dressed meat elk and just how the hell are you going to keep the 498 pounds you do not eat today from rotting?
These off the grid guys are delusional. They fall into two categories:
1) They are somewhere like Flagstaff that has a mild climate year round and escape power requirements for cooling or heating or
2) They forget things. They forget the trip they make in to get their insulin from the doc each month. They forget that when they had some accident and spoiled some food that they hopped in the car and went and bought some food for that month.
This guy is also dead, as of today. He ran his mouth. He is a target when the time comes.
What, you never heard of preserving meat? It's not hard, and there are lots of ways to do it besides refrigeration.
And Christ, it's not as if the rest of the world is going to just disappear. No man needs to be an island 100% of the time. You just need to be a little self reliant, and have something for emergencies. If your shit breaks, it's not as if everyone in the world is going to die or turn into a zombie. Just take it into town and get it fixed. That is why you keep gold and silver.
"You also have to have power. For what? For the fridge. You shoot a 500 pound of field dressed meat elk and just how the hell are you going to keep the 498 pounds you do not eat today from rotting?"
It's called canning. All you need is mason jars, water and fire wood. That's how you take care of that problem.
And yes, you can heat a house of significant square footage with wood. I am doing it right now.
canned MEAT? R U fkin people NUTS?
You're going to can an entire fucking elk....yeah, um, sure dude.
BTW, I am glad to see that you have a glassware factory on your compound.
"You are not allowed to preserve the fruits of your labors because glass."
So sayth the mighty Trav.
Yes, canned meat Scooter. It keeps quite well. Go to any grocery store, they have it there too! One hardly needs a glassware factory or a compound, you can buy the jars for not alot and by investing a little more in reusable lids you can use them for decades- Tattler lids are good for 20 years. During the winter you can often get canning jars for half price or less as stores clear their inventory. You wouldnt need to can the entire thing, but you could certainly can a heckuva lot dpending on how many jars you have. With enough of them, yes you could can an entire elk but personally I would dry a bit. You can get at least 3-4 pounds in a quart jar depending on how its cut, given 8-9 cases of jars and 7 quarts per run in my pressure cooker at about 45 minutes per - it would take a day or two but quite doable.
Well, I stepped away and I see the maniacs arrived and object to the idea that they can't do this. Must have trod on their dreams.
Where did you think you were going to get cans in the post Peak world of no transport? I suppose you might have an iron ore mine in your backyard, but I kind of thought the calories you burn during the day might be better spent finding food than mining iron to can the food you didn't spend time hunting.
You'll need a salt mine. Don't know if any are in Montana. They aren't everywhere, and their surface layers were already used.
"Getting canning jars for half price" is not much value if there are no stores with any in them.
This is pretty typical of survivalist thinking. They plan to survive 48 hrs until the power company fixes the downed line. Not forever when the power company trucks have no gasoline to go fix anything..
You sound like you've already been defeated. That's good. Less competition for those of us with a will to survive.
I'm not the one that posted pics of my setup on ZH so the hordes can target me when the time comes. This guy is already dead.
All you left wing types (and I mean all of you) just refuse to accept the correct solution, which is a pre-emptive nuclear strike to suppress Chinese oil consumption via killing 1+ billion on their east coast. There isn't any other solution that maximizes the odds that Americans survive disproportionately in what is coming.
The US burns 23% of the world's daily oil with 4% of the world's population. Did you think the world will acquiesce to that as starvation sets in? Bombs are going to fly. Fly American bombs first, or you will surely die.
"
All you left wing types (and I mean all of you) just refuse to accept the correct solution, which is a pre-emptive nuclear strike to suppress Chinese oil consumption via killing 1+ billion on their east coast. There isn't any other solution that maximizes the odds that Americans survive disproportionately in what is coming."
Do the words strontium 90, iodine, cesium, tritium and plutonium have any meaning to you.!? Wake up, "fallout" of bed and smell reality Crashis Pain in the Asses!
...because the hordes read ZH. DUMBASS. If the "power company trucks don't have gas" to fix utilities, just how the fuck are the hordes reaching the mountains of an UNDISCLOSED area of the GIANT state of Montana? Jesus Christ, some of you fucking braniacs...
*Facepalm*
"Canning" is done in glass jars. What the heck does iron have to do with anything? Nothing whatsoever, but it doesnt keep know nothing idiots from running off at the mouth on things they have not even a grain of knowledge about. I have a couple hundred jars myself, I prefer to grow my own sugar snaps, beans, peas, corn, tomatos, and will be experimenting with a few others this year. I will put up probably 150 or so quarts of assorted vegetables by fall and may do some soups, salsa, and sauces this year. With a few hundred jars and reusable lids, I dont need anything else.
It has nothing to do with "survivalist" thinking you complete urban nitwit, growing and preserving your own food is pretty common in many rural areas. Its something that millions already do but you lack even the vaguest knowledge of the subject. There isnt anything wrong with that, but you should have the common sense to shut your yap when discussing something you have absolutely zero experience with or information about.
You certainly seem to be another left coast/northeastern type whose total ignorance in a subject unfortunately does not prevent you from having an opinion which is a shame because it should. Learn first, THEN talk- youve gotten it entirely backwards.
Read my previous comment. You're just another left wing denialist.
You don't have a forever perspective. You probably even tell people you've made preparations. Typical leftist.
I-
@Lednbrass
Thank you... You spared me from having to say the same... It's not as hard as anyone imagines... & for peeps like trav who wanna make it harder on themselves & everyone else I say do WTF you want... When it comes to SURVIVAL... 'style' points don't count...
my neighbor sun dries his vegetables, and vacuum seals meal sized portions, in plastic bags. they store well, and make delicious soup. it tastes like fresh picked.
You DO KNOW that glass jars are reusable, right? Why do you think people are buying these things now?
You paint a picture of extremely proud ignorance. Sadly par for the course for peak oilers.
"This is pretty typical of survivalist thinking. They plan to survive 48 hrs until the power company fixes the downed line. Not forever when the power company trucks have no gasoline to go fix anything.."
Uh, sure, some are doing that and will be S-O-L like the rest of you doing nothing. There are plenty of people here prepared for you all to JUST GO AWAY once and for all. We'll be much happier, even w/o the cheap, foolish entertainment of your clueless statements.
Since you're clearly not interested, I won't bore you with details about how to smoke meat or build an underground ice house that will keep winter meat frozen through late summer.
How did they ever, ever, ever keep ice before refrigeration? Gee, I'm just a dumbass who believes ice was only invented after electricity...
Tool. Total tool.
You can/smoke/dry just about anything...you're really starting to go off the rails here trav.
You never heard of pickled pigs feet or eggs?...not that I ever tried them...lol.
jerky. my favorite.
Exactly.
This is how far many here have devolved. They think fish is square, comes in a box and can be had with a SNAP card...lol.
It's very illuminating, for any statist strolling through these parts, their work is almost done.
You can't survive without us ;-)
fish isn't square????
get right out of town!
Ever hear of pemmican? I went to high school in the Northwest and lots of classmates were from a local tribe. One week, we learned how to make all sorts of things using traditional recipes, only since it was winter and it was the Northwest, we cheated and used the oven. The pemmican made from venison was terrific and the rock-pounding kind of fun.
If it's new to you, read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pemmican and
http://www.smokylake.com/history/native/pemmican.htm
Canning jars are old technology that you aquire BEFORE the shtf. When you run out of jars then just dry/smoke the meat over a fire. Dude, this isn't rocket science.
fuckin 'a' man...
I still laugh (not really) at all the gold & silver hoarders (that's next)...
Fucking mason jars should be at the top of anyones list...
Don't forget the lids!
Lots and lots of extra lids.
The glass jars are reusuable, the lids, not so much (you CAN get at least two uses out of most of them if you wash them very well after the first use, though, but I would not risk reused lids on meat or fish --- just high-acid foods like jams and jellies, pickles, sauerkraut, applesauce, etc.).
I seriously have 'lids' at about a 6-1 ratio... (good point)
If you are worried about that, you can buy the wax ring replacements for quite cheap. Push come to shove, I bet you could melt them and re-mold them if you had to.
But of course, that is asinine. This crisis isn't going last more than a decade from economic collapse to reboot of industry.
Trav, I get your point, but lighten up! I have found that if I'm patient, someone will throw away or give me almost anything I can name. There's nothing wrong with me stashing that stuff now; better than cluttering up a landfill. Right now I'm just playing around with making windplants from 100% scrounged materials (bicyle bearings, permanent magnet DC motors, etc), but the time will come that I'm doing it for points. Americans have way too much crap right now, what's wrong with repurposing it?
plus a million! half the fun of making stuff is sourcing the "ingredients" creatively.
and canning jars? yard sales & secondhand stores, usually 5-25 cents each - buy packs of lids (these are essential for prep supplies, as they're the part that need replacing over time).
there are so many creative ways to live well.
Most legal hunting happens in the fall or early winter. If you live in the mountains, a cooler buried on the north side of your abode will keep meat thru the winter. You can jar, smoke, salt, jerk ( the game I mean)! And if the world as we know it ends, most of the essential shit available now will eventually be available again. Just gonna cost more!
"canned MEAT?"
When you're hungry, it's food. Try dining on hubris, ass.
Exactly. ...but you will also need salt and vinegar...
sure absolutely... but while it's still cheap...
half the people around here have monster boxes of silver (but no salt)...
go for sea salt, not the generic iodized crap
Don't go for the sea salt. The generic iodized crap is good for your thyroid gland, unless you're partial to goiters.
members.iimetro.com.au/~hubbca/salt.htm
Ah, okay. I realize I won't be convincing to someone who is into homeopathy and that's all right. Philosophically, it's just a different perspective than mine.
I point to articles from Mens Health magazine, which I consider to be about the best source for accessible and accurate health information around. It is always well written and impeccably sourced. Regarding salt, take a look at these:
http://www.menshealth.com/health/do-you-need-more-salt
http://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/sodium
http://www.menshealth.com/health/truth-about-salt
And there are more if you want to search the archives.
It's not that salt is bad for you, rather it is the type of salt in the diet that is bad. Processed foods are packed with preservatives, coloring agents and extenders that are loaded with various unhealthy forms of sodium. Sea salt and kosher salt are trendy and cool but they lack the iodine that helps your thyroid gland function. People do develop goiters -- that's a fact, and when one part of the endocrine system screws up, another tends to follow.
Iodized table salt isn't sexy but just a little every day will prevent keep you healthy.
Who needs to buy vinegar? Doesn't anybody have fruits, berries or anything to ferment?
http://www.publicbookshelf.com/public_html/The_Household_Cyclopedia_of_General_Information/howtomak_bjc.html
And learn to tap trees if you live near deciduous species (broadleaves that drop in the fall) because you CAN make syrup, and then sugar, out of them, it just takes longer to boil the water off....
http://www.alaskabirchsyrup.com/abbisy.html
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091017203453AAYWO7o
Good links. Thanks.
Just don't try to make syrup out of spruce, pine or fir.
Glue, or a good fire-starter, yes. Syrup, no.
Mmmm, boiled meat -- yum! From a year ago, double yum!
Eating to live vs. living to eat.
Enjoy the kick ass food chain while it is fully functional. Olive oil from Italy, wine from France, frozen at sea Pacific tuna, bio-engineered juicy steaks from the mid-west, etc. Damn... if things get ugly I will miss it all.
CITRUS. I will miss citrus most of all here in the upper midwest. Veggies, fruits...hell even tobacco grows here, but not citrus.
you will eat shit...i'm sure of it
Humans have accomplished so much because of specialization, not in spite of it. There is nothing wrong with using goods produced by society. The goal here shold be to accumulate the private property (capital) needed so that you can survive without more inputs from society if necessary. If I buy a gasifier, that will help my energy dependence, but that doesn't mean I have to know how to build the fucking thing from raw materials.
Even ants have societies that specialize.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lFg21x2sj-M
How many years does the gasifier last, versus how many years are you expecting to live, and is there anyone you expect to survive you?
I think the underlying concept is that absolute "self-sufficiency" is, in most cases, purely delusional. You can prepare for a certain amount of time without outside transactions, but without going primitive, it's virtually impossible to go on indefinitly without stuff from "The Grid".
How about an icehouse as another option? JFC, how the fuck do you think folks survived in years past?
Somebody finally stated the obvious...
"...how the fuck do you think folks survived in years past?"
They didn't survive. "On a long enough timeline..."
You don't need a stove to heat a house of significant footage. You just need a well designed house. Admittedly there aren't so many of them. Google Passivhaus.
Smoked. Salted. Prosciutto. Typically considered these days to be expensive delicacies. There's a reason people are paid a salary.
I agree though, it isn't necessary or realistic to go completely off grid, gas, oil, coal, nuclear, solar, wind will all be around for a while yet.
Yeah, we're delusional as shit man. Funny, I heat 3 substantial homes with wood. It's work - it's not just push a button, but it's good heat and very very reliable.
Of course, I chose to live in a not-idiotic place. Duh. Who says you have to live at the pole or the equator? I live in a 4 seasons kinda place, it's nice - too hot in the summer, too cold in the winter, so gosh, I have to adapt what I wear and stuff. Wow, I guess that makes me delusional, or you unable to see past your utter dependency on your bubble wrap world.
Somehow, long before there was exploitable oil and stuff - humans covered the planet. They managed. They even managed to have babies without hospitals, and preserve food without electricity. Wow - I guess the empire has already crumbled since most people now are not as good at living as what they like to call "savages" or "primitives". The truth is, you think you're smart, but you don't even know what they know.
Good luck with that.
There is a big difference between "surviving" and "thriving". Yes, people lived in the pre-industrial age, with an average life expectency of 30 and high infant mortality rates and all. Back in the good old days when people died from wisdom teeth or minor injuries getting infected or influenza.
So if we have an economic collapse everyone suddenly forgets about sanitation and loses all of our accumulated medical knowledge?
Come off it. You sound like one of those idiots who thinks that the world will suddenly look like a Charles Dickens novel if we went back to a gold standard. As if all our knowledge were reliant on continuous access to modern technology (or paper money, lol).
tmosley
"So if we have an economic collapse everyone suddenly forgets about sanitation and loses all of our accumulated medical knowledge?"
I would imagine Antibiotics would be very hard to come by. That is the essence of modern medicines ability to battle infectious bacteria and diseases.
Also no xrays, CT scans,MRI.
So die off would be kind of high and once a virulent disease, like a Flu, hit die off would happen again.
It isn't like doctors shake a stick and people heal.
No, but washing hands with soap, sterlizing cuts, and basic knowledge of digestive maladies goes a LONG way.
Flu is only dangerous when people travel. If people are travelling, then you can bet your last silver dime that they will be making antibiotics or other more powerful antimicrobial compounds.
and eating healthy - best preventitive medical care there is
More signs of genius at work!
If you live in an industrialized country with access to all the accoutrements and technologies of modern medicine, you have a 1 in 3 (and rising) chance of dying from some form of cancer[a previously rare disease]....one of the least pleasant ways to go...and all the doctor can offer you is to mitigate the pain and shake a stick at your wallet to make the money fall out. Some progress. Some thriving.
There is a big difference between "surviving" and "thriving". Yes, people lived in the pre-industrial age, with an average life expectency of 30 and high infant mortality rates and all. Back in the good old days when people died from wisdom teeth or minor injuries getting infected or influenza. Bud, back in the bad ol days before the medical mafia funded by the big $ foundations outlawed every other modality of healing than the current failed model, folks got sick, got healed and lived good lives till peaceful death as much or more than the present.
If you guys want to advocate for the voodoo science cult that actually spends more time and $ inventing new diseases than curing old ones, at least come clean and admit that you are simply pushing one form of high 'die off' over another.
So you are confident that without major trade networks and stores, within your group of collegues, you would have the skills and resources neccessary to make antibiotics, anaesthetics, and antiseptics? You or people you know would be able to perform root canals, c-sections, and be able to pass this knowledge on?
If so, you are truly prepared.
I didn't say people die from drinking poo-water or not bathing.
So what, the rapture happens and all the doctors and chemists disappear?
Come the fuck on.
If we have a SHTF situation (unless it's McCarthy's The Road) there will still be specialisation, trade, commerce. Yes, people will be more capable of self-sufficiency by being generalists, but some people will be blacksmiths, some will be miners, and some will be doctors. Will they have MRI? Probably not. Will they have powerful analgesics? Of course - Opium poppies have been used for thousands of years to alleviate pain. Will they have anaesthetics? Effective anaesthetic agents were in use from the mid 19th century - ether, chloroform, cocaine.
Will medical science be as refined in a simpler, less energy-rich society? Of course not. So what? What's your point? If we have societal collapse, we'll all do the best we can.
Whining about your iPhone not working anymore ain't gonna butter you any parsnips.
Yes, but there were no chemtrails, fluoridated water, bi-sphenonal A, GMO foods, weaponized vaccines and drones to deal with.
There are no chemtrails now, fluoridated water demonstrably and independantly improves oral health, BPA is a phytoestrogen that only affects very young boys (feminizes them at worst), GMO foods don't have any effect on human health unless they were engineered to, which they weren't for the most part (some contain drugs), there is no such thing as a "weaponized vaccine", and if the shit has really hit the fan, there will be little fuel for drones.
Quit your bitchin. We have it much better than the folks in the 1800's in every way but freedom.
+1000 tmosley
Refreshing to see some constructive reasoning in spite of all the chicken little bullshit.
GMOs are likely the biggest health and agriculture risk ever created. Don't know where you base that one. Many scientists, crop and animal observation, and disease / cancer / allergy results disagree with you. That is the very reason America (ie corrupt paid for congressmen) have refused to label GMOs - that would give the ultimate database that would overwhelmingly demonstrate what ethical scientists already know. Animal and plant reaction to GMOs alone show us a lot.
you're wrong, but I'm not going to argue with you - threads are already too congested with petty NO vs.YES, and name calling. . .
Monsanto Patents and Chemtrails
http://farmwars.info/?p=7760
USDA Scientist Reveals All: Glyphosate Hazards to Crops, Soils, Animals, and Consumershttp://farmwars.info/?p=7718
Weather Wars
http://www.activistpost.com/2010/08/weather-wars-and-devils-haarp.html
and of course, you can find many more links to credible sources than I'll put here on an old thread.
+1.
also, unless you're praying for the full zombie invasion the primary purpose isn't complete
isolation from society. rather it is economic: reducing the dependency and cost on what
the organised consumer society has transformed into a service spigot: to turn off the taps.
if you can bring it down to municipal tax, proper insurance, and high speed internet alone,
kudos to you.
When you have absolutely no experience with something or real knowledge of it, you really should shut the fuck up and refrain from comment.
I spent some time in stove heated farmhouse as a kid, the wood stove kicked so much heat we had to open the windows in the winter. The house wasnt as large as his, but they can produce a helluva lot of warm, no doubt about it. It depends how much you want to feed it, but with alot of wood and a reasonably well insulated home you dont have to worry about being cold.
What do you do with the rest of the elk? LOL, you cure it, dry it, make jerky, and can it slicker boy. Not as effective as your sort going to the grocery store and buying it on the styrofoam trays they grow it on in the back Im sure, but it works.
Be very glad for urban life, without all the conveniences the hand of Darwin would be hammering you into the dirt right quick. Effete urban twits shouldnt opine on things they know nothing about, when the subject is how to best shave your chest or what hair care product is best for todays on the go metrosexual Im sure you can pipe up with authority but here if your entire knowledge of how to live like this guy were put into physical form you couldnt paint the bottom of a damn thimble.
You really are a dumbass, and while I support your right to dumbassery you are abusing the privilege.
"...what hair care product is best for todays on the go metrosexual..."
Oh, wow. Priceless.
yeah wood works for tiny populations. You're sharing right?
"If everyone can't do it, no-one should do it."
So sayth the mighty Trav.
You're an idiot, so say the mighty Morph.
Care to expound on that?
Probably not.
of course not. Time for Trav's Theme!...bitchez.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnpEI3njoeo
(thx agn, fuu...)
No I wouldnt and at this time am not yet running on it (though Im heading that way), but where was it stated that someone who doesnt want to depend on the power grid is obligated to provide for a horde of dependent urban zombies, or that this guys solution is invalid unless it also applies to said zombie hordes? Thats silliness.
See something, say something!!!
I'm telling on you...ROTFL!!!
LOL
Well Mr. Smith, its good to see that you have learned to love Big Brother.
I've self diagnosed my own psychosis, I do love abusing him so ;-)
Trav, you're off your game. Tmo is tearing you apart on this thread. Stick to racism, as you obviously have nothing useful to say about self-sufficiency.
When you were a kid, there were 2 billion people in the world. Now there are 7. It's a shame you're calling others names like dumbass and you haven't figured out that those extra five billion people burning wood and curing elk are a game changer, but hey, it takes a dumbass to know one.
The number of people in the world is entirely freaking irrelevant, dumbass. I dont know either of you but get the feeling I am talking to a couple of left coast dipsticks operating under the very mistaken assumptions that what works for one must work for everyone and unless a solution for one person applies to everyone it is somehow invalidated. If you princesses want to live in such a way that a solution for one must apply to all on the planet or it somehow is meaningless, well good luck to you both comrades but I think its a- well I'll be kind and say misguided premise.
@Lednbrass
Don't let it get to you... I kno exactly from where you're coming from & they're just argumentative dipsticks...
carry on...
Clearly this "game" cannot be played by 7 billion. The point is to be among those that can.
<p>Finally, someone makes a good comment here. Not all 7 billion are going to survive. Peak population. Peak social complexity. Peak friggin EROEI re: fossil fuels. We are set up for a supercycle sort of game change. Will take decades upon decades to play out. All of us wont be around to see the next significant turn. But, we will see a hell of a kick-off. The system can't support any more as is. We are already some 20 years over the real peak... just yet to realize it.</p><p>Discussions of true sustainability are completely stupid. This is about using what you can in smart way to get an Darwinistic edge on the general population and stay out of harm's way. </p>
that was a wierd glitch that put my post in this place. odd.
Dead wrong! If the demon banksters and the oligarchs would allow technology to be used for the good instead of controlling us the world would be much more habitable for all. Instead the demons hoard the new technologies for themselves with their transhumanism bullshit and feeding their military industrial complex.
Hell, this "game" is being played by billions worldwide right now albeit involuntarily!
I see that you agree with Trav on the notion that if everyone can't do it, then no-one should.
I don't recall seeing anyone say that the entire population of the Earth should move to Montana and cut firewood. Where on Earth did you get that notion?
Just because everyone isn't preparing doesn't mean no-one should. But then, I suspect that you are an acolyte of Trav's, and as such you will attack anyone who makes any sort of move to reduce reliance on the system rather than just accepting the inevitability of their death, which will surely come next Thursday or never depending on his mood.
Maybe those extra five billion should quit fucking around (literally) and quit screwin around (figuratively) with my life and just live out their own lives.
They should indeed stay on the grid and do as they're told by complete incompetents who consume more individually than one thousand of them consume collectively.
Or is there some other sort of "utopian world society" you were trying to build?
You really are a dumbass, and while I support your right to dumbassery you are abusing the privilege.
+ 10k
I <3 reading that I cant heat my 2 br 2 bath house with wood while I am sitting in the mountains in the living room next to my woodstove. Enjoy that power/gas bill!!!! What do those run again anyway, I havent had one in so many years I can't remember
Theres nowhere safer to live "when the time comes" Deal.
It's not that difficult to dry out and preserve meat.
Yes. The refrigerator was invented in 1908. Soon after meat was invented.
"You can't heat a house of significant square footage with a woodstove. Period."
Dude! You have got to fucking kidding. Really??? I keep my ass nice and toasty with my Vogelzang boxwood stove in snow country, as my parents did, as their parents did.
Ever hear of cured , smoked or dried meat? Propane fridges?
JEEZ...
I think your reply might be scrambled in the thread lineage. . . but suspect you were replying to the "mild" weather of Flagstaff posted upthread - I was going to reply & didn't. . .
BUT, having lived there, I would never call the weather "mild" - monsoons in the summer, where the temps range from high 90's days to mid 40's nights (which I love, by the way) AFTER the mid-afternoon massive thunderstorm blows through. . . and winters bright, clear skies, sunglasses. . . and in the 20's most days - the snow, erratic with the SW droughts, but when it arrives. . . quite often DUMPS a few feet, with the melt pit-hole the streets, nasty for the tires & suspension. . .
but "mild"? no, I've lived many "milder" places than Flagstaff.
You are an idiot. You have no freaking clue as to what you're talking about. Do you think you still need a McMansion in the middle of the woods? What, to impress all your neighbors and your fellow city council members? Our ancestors lived w/o electric power for generations and did just fine. There are plenty of useful skills that one can pick up now that will save your life later. Still, some dumbasses like you and Trav want to just bash the idea. Good luck with those hopium pills. If you can't even imagine OTG, then you really stand no chance when SHTF. But like Trav, I will say: good luck when the zombies come. Hope the Amreikan grid saves you.
HAHAHAHahaha.... -5K for sheer cluelessness and idiocy. ditto with everyone else - we had a woodstove in a decent-sized older house (not very good insulation), and it got so hot in there we'd have to walk around in shorts. The doors of the freakin' stove would glow orange it was so hot, and plain old hardwood for fuel...
The point is people don't have to work 30 years to get this. It's a healthier lifestyle that doesn't require sending troops to hot, sandy places. Off-gridders are more patriots than malcontent recluses.
We don't need to sacrifice comfort or standard of living to seize the benefits that technology promised, and this is a great example of how it is done.
Take that $14 fish, for instance. It came with the land. In suburbia, you'd have to earn $22 before taxes before you could trade for the protein. Instead of working an hour for someone who might dump you due to a preexisting condition, you spend an hour casting a line into a creek. The results are similar.
The more people who do this, the more jobs are available who want to stay in the urban working world. Their standard of living will increase, too.
Here's a related TED bit of someone who succeeded, too.
taniquetil
Sounds groovy cool and all but how far is the fucker from a hospital? Older you get the faster you need those emergency services. How fucking hard is it for the EMT's to find his house?
Living alone "off the grid" you get sick and croak and they find you come spring eaten by the house pets.
This implies that we NEED to live longer, and keep pushing the average lifespan higher and higher. The only ways we are able to achieve this is either by using medications to prolong the lifespan of bodies that aren't able to sustain themselves, or by maintaining a decent level of health and fitness and taking measures to stave off preventable illnesses.
There are large numbers of people who live to be 80 or 90 years old without visiting doctors or requiring any medical attention (emergency or general). If we get sick and die, well, we get sick and die. What's the preoccupation with preventing death (because, really, that's what we're trying to do)? I used to think that we need to live as long as possible - now I'm starting to think we just need to live, enjoy what we've got, and accept that we're going to die at some stage, and some sooner than others.
it's not how long you live, but how well you live. chemo, statin drugs, coumadin (rat poison) psychotropic brain chemistry altering pills. this shit passes for medical treatment ?
Cool- just like the Unibomber......
Yep. I've been warning for decades about the close links the libertarian community keeps up with the fringe of society, and I'm once again confirmed in my worst expectations.
Here's the rub, numbnuts:
When you haven't eaten for three days because your bank account went belly-under, you'll be begging guys like this for the slop he feeds his pigs.
Good luck.
Uh. . . . Hamy is a satirist.
and bad one at that. I much prefer MDB
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
erm,
unless they happen to live on top of resources that we deign important to the more equal mens, in which case, their unalienable Rights are rescinded by virtue of their being in the way of the most Righteous of equal mens.
a-men.
Is That what you call that in polite language? I was wondering.
Hopefully Hamy won't be begging me. I'm trying to get as far from the "Hamys" as possible.
how old are you Hamy if you have been warning for decades ?
He probably was a big Roosevelt supporter. My Grandfather, now he didn't like him. Refers to that era as "Back when Roosevelt stole everybodies gold".
sarcasm fail
Except he isn't just like the unibomber, moron. He uses technology and seems to embrace it. Take your ..... and shove them.
cyber.eserver.org/unabom.txt
How about this: Ever asked a friend if they can go a day without reading Zerohedge? I know I can't.
So true - when we go to our retreat to practice off the grid I hate being away from Zh and it sucks trying to read it on the Iphone (charged via solar/battery/converter)
.
You know... I hate to say this... but the TRUTH is... YOU'RE A FUCKING PRETENDER... Because if & when the day comes that all the armageddon stuff comes to pass and you find yoursef with ZH withdrawls...???
You'll realize in that moment that you were a pretender all along...
Eh? ZH is probably the world's last bastion of investigative journalism. We ALL want and need that. People don't stop reading the newspaper when war is upon them.
What I'm syaing is that if the worst case scenario unfolds, 'survivors' won't have enough time to while away the hours frivolously blogging... There might not even be a fully functional internet...
I realize that's the worst case scenario, but there's a big gap between 'gameplanning' and game 'playing'...
One of the reason I hang around here a lot is because I learn a lot of stuff... Stuff I'd never thought of before... I'm not going to let that opportunity go to waste... But in reality, I need to spend more time actually 'doing' things... In the wintertime, I kind of use the cold weather as a false excuse to get little done...
False associations like that photo of the ski chalet?
You don't need to move to Montana to go off-grid or raise your own food. Start small, raise chickens and/or rabbits, grow some zucchini, onions, carrots, and lettuce. If you never eat another store-bought salad the rest of your life you will be way ahead of the game. If you can, plant some olive trees for oil and make your own vinegar by pouring the bottoms of your wine bottles into a small oak cask. It is all so easy even pre-historic man could do it.
That is a magnificant trout.
My wife and I bought a small house, 840 sq ft, in the middle of town. Now we use the rest of the 1/8 acre lot to grow vegetables. I use my garage (which I built to my minimal needs) as a shop and make interesting things there. My son is 11 and already can weld iron and work with wood.
The idea that living off the grid also means moving into the woods is just stupid. And if my hunch is correct, we're all going to be off the grid in 10 years or so no matter where you are. Every kind of grid, and there are lots of them, is going to fall apart for lack of funds or social order.
You don't have to go into exile to live a low-cost lifestyle. Herbs grow on windowsills, and many vegetables in pots indoors. For those of us who are not positioned to run out and buy a ranch in the wilderness, there are still options. It is also satisfying to cancel your cable and cut the MSM out of your daily life.
The most amazing part of adjusting to this style of life is realizing how little I actually need. That, and the fact that I sleep like a baby at night knowing I can survive on so little. There are a lot of things that one can "opt out" of, even though we are forced to participate in the system in general. And as you slow down, you enjoy life so much more.
nice posts hedgeless, blu and austri. This is the first year I have eaten every day from my gardens and I live north on the 47th. It can be done and in a small space. As many wise folks have said, it's a matter of re-learning old skills
Most Watched Forager In The World
http://www.eattheweeds.com/
Thank you for the reality check. We're living off the grid and it sure doesn't look that swanky. Not yet anyway.
Fish Murderer!!!
Look at the size of that fish! It was obviously self defense.
LOL!
Ski chalet is about right. I was thinking trophy cabin. This is like a Sovereign Man piece of indulgent fantasy. Good thing this guy waited to make his millions before deciding big pharma is a scam, or he couldn't have afforded the bitchin house with steel roof and shiny wood floors.