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The Question(s) Of Italy's 2451.8 Tons Of Gold
As the following update from the World Gold Council reminds us, at the end of October, Italy had 2,451.8 tonnes of gold, or roughly $140 billion dollars at today's price. We doubt we are the only ones keeping track of all this gold (most of it almost certainly 'safe and sound' about 150 feet deep under the infamous LIberty 33 location). We also doubt we are the only ones curious about its future, which we see as have five distinct possible outcomes: i) nothing; ii) it is currently being shipped quietly from The New York Fed to Italy for "general corporate purposes); iii) it has already been shipped and is currently being loaded up in Silvio's private jet; iv) the G-20 is already preparing to launch a formal demand that in order to remain in the Eurozone and to find the EFSF, which will be used to buy Italian bonds, Italy will have to do its patriotic duty and remit it to the ECB, an extortion attempt which was tried with Germany last week and which failed spectacularly; or v) it is being lent out to other countries who have long since sold their gold and continue to pretend they have some hard asset backing to the currencies issued by their own central banks. We hope to get an answer shortly.
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US govt debt : 15 T USD gold reserve : 8.2 KT
Italy govt debt : 2.3 T USD gold reserve : 2.5 KT
ratios : Debt : 6.5 Gold reserves : 3.3
Looks like Italy is head, macro wise, if Gold is Midas of new world!
All that glitters...blah blah blah..
Better get long black gold, Israel is about to strike.
It will be interesting to see how Bernanke answers the gold questiong this time...when the world is shouting that it is the real currency...its no longer tradition..its fear...
You do not have to be a "gold bug" to believe in what we do here. Common sense, search for the truth yourself, not from MSM and ask yourself, "where are we going". We honestly feel we are protecting what we have worked so hard to accumulate, and we do not want to lose it. Just look around you, look what is leading this country and the actions they take, how can you not have some exposure to the gold, silver and PM markets. That to me makes 0 sense.
We have long been ridiculed here on Zero Hedge. Cursed at, laughed at and made fun of by the likes of Robot and his tribe. That is OK. Markets are what they are and there are many diverse opinions. I guess the only part that I find bothersome is when those with minium intelligence post, how stupid we are, curse us to the point of being obnoxious, and advise how smart they are.
Well fine, let them continue to ridicule. I will just stay on this slow train until we get to the final destination. Let them spew forth their garbage. And here is NEM just .40 cents from a life time high. RGLD next. Train not leaving the station yet, but ya might want to think about getting a ticket. But I do not short broken markets.
Your gold price is set by gold futures which are leveraged at min 10:1, using some creativity it is easily leverages 100 or 1000:1
If you own PHYS in order to spend it YOU WILL have to convert it to fiat. Lets say the US is about to default or some other such calamity ensues. and gold rockets to $10,000 or lets go balls out $50,000.00 PER OUNCE!!!
Why you think your rich. Until you go down to the local 'coin shop' ... and its CLOSED. Do you REALLY think someone is going to hand you 10 or 50K in cash for an oz of gold????? Do you really think that price would remain stable for enough time for that guy to next day air that oz off to some other gold buyer and get his fiat back (at a profit)?? Its OK to say yes, I just really want to know if you believe this to be true?
No, but I think he'll give me 40k for it, if he can flip it for 50k.
He'll have to give me a check, though. I don't have a larege enough wheel barrow to tote that much cash around in.
The gold would never reach those lofty heights without people gladly paying that amount.
At $2400 gold will be too available, the price slips back.
Silver at a hundred? There will be huge amounts available for all to buy at that price, so it slips back lower.
All we need are free markets and the prices will stabilize and make some sense.
I'd like to see $2400 gold, and $80 silver by end of Q1, 2012. 35 to 1, round numbers, pretty sweet.
GS called for $2400 gold a while back. They should know.
At $100 Silver/ounce, China with its USD reserves alone could buy 30 Billion ounces, roughly all the Silver that has ever been mined.
Does any of what you posted make sense to you? Just wondering.
If the market price for gold is 50k an ounce, it kind of implies there is a market for gold at 50k an ounce. Your assumptions about converting to fiat and coin dealers being out of business are based on ignorance.
We will see if you feel the same way when a happy meal is $300 and going up $10 a day. I bet you'll be the first guy in line trying buy gold at 50k an ounce to preserve what little wealth you have left.
good point. you may not be able "sell" your gold,
but you may want to trade it for: year's rent, set a broken leg, passage out on a ship or airliner, a wicked assault weapon, several head of cattle.
hopefully this is kinda obvious with silver too.
if it ever gets to 50k it will be due to currency revulsion...you (and most others) won't want to exchange it for paper...just like today it would be hard for you to accept Zim$ for anything of value, that currency has been rejected.
Hardly anyone in Weimar Germany understood what was happening because their values were anchored in the existing paper currency. Like our friend Bill.
Someone doesn't have any gold!
"When Money Dies" and "The Dying of Money" are both available to download for free, the answer to your confusion will be found there.
Whether that happens again or not is the debate, at least having read them you will be able to participate.
"We hope to get an answer shortly."
LOL, good luck with that. There is nothing quite as turbid as the accounting for sovereign gold. We don't know who has gold or how much and they aren't going to tell us the truth
Think of the value at Freegold valuation around 60k/oz. The mind boggles.
60K /oz LMAO, that will be the day.
It sure will be the day.
Does anyone even doubt that this deal with Italy isn't just to get ahold of Italy's 2500 tons of gold?
If you don't trust your government (since there are all bought and paid for) do you really think the USA has over 8,000 tons of gold?
I for one don't trust any organization that won't subject itself to an independent audit.
I was under the impression that the US had up to 9300 tons, tho I had always understood it to be 8100. This article states 8133. Is there a definitive source on this issue?
If you find this credible (I don't)
http://www.fms.treas.gov/gold/current.html
So all the US gold amounts to around $4.629 trillion, or less than 2 years of ongoing US debt over issuance burn rate - the exact argument the PIIGS are facing for EFSF.
If everyone thinks the China "economy" eclipses the US economy before 2020, then for the yuan to be considered a reserve currency under parochial terms, it seems China needs another 6 tons of gold to be taken seriously.
The show won't get interesting until those gold reserves are physically moved out of New York.
Perception is reality. Germany gold. Italian gold. Greek gold.
Seems gold is important after all.
Is it time to turn up this tune http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV0wPBYDQ6Y and roll around naked in your pile of gold coins yet?
Welcome to the new world...christmas exchange rate wishes..swiss lobby group asked SNB for 1.3000 EUCHF cap for christmas. uff
I like my gold with butter and cane syrup on top. Its yummy.
!! Tyler - Are you sure you got your conversion right? I calculate roughly $57 million USD/tonne (see link below). Thus, Italy's 2,451 tonnes should be valued closer to $140 billion USD. Please correct me if wrong. Cheers - Big Slick
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_reserve
Is wiki messed up in their values??
(On the other hand, what's $80 billion per tonne between friendly manipulators of the capitalist system?)
140B. I got that too..
2451*32000*1790(I'm an optimist) = 140,393,280,000
NO....
There are not 32,000 troy ounces in a long ton. There are 26,400 troy ounces in a long ton. It is not a 2000 pound US ton but a metric tonne = 2200 pounds per and 12 troy ounces per pound. Then multiply by spot price comes to 116.05 billion dollars a few minutes ago.
ANYWAY, you are using short US tons, there are 32,000 ounces in a US ton, but there are 2200 pounds in the TONNE which is what the 2,451.8 is quoted in, and then there are only 12 TROY ounces to the pound.
The Bernank needs to resend his TPS report to the ECB regarding Gold is not being money.
Goldfinger. Where art thou?
It will be interesting to see what happens. The value of the 2,451.8 metric tons, based on = 86484699 ounces @ $1781 = $154,029,248,919....
I don't know what you did to get that number, I suspect you accidentally typo'ed somewhere, because 2451.8 X 2200 X 16 = 86,303,360 BUT that is way wrong since you like every single person on this thread today including TD himself all think there are 16 ounces of gold in a pound. Gold is calculated in TROY ounces and there are 12 to the pound. Making you and every single person here off by about $7,150 per POUND of gold.
When are the Gold Council going to update their records. China has been buying nonstop over the last year, yet still have 1054 tonnes.
The next time China makes the mistake of revealing its current gold holdings there will be a thunderous jump in the price of gold like last time. So you and I will be waiting a long time because the Chinese are happy to accumulate while the rest of the world is emptying its pockets.
I've been saying for years that gold reserves are a target. Central banks deceive people into accepting worthless paper for their real wealth.
http://georgesblogforum.wordpress.com/2011/10/13/the-real-weapon-of-mass...
So why not allow Gold and Silver to find their true value, then pay off all debts and move on.
So what if JP Morgan go down in the process. Surely that's the icing on the cake?
Exactomundo! Screwing around with the prices of select assets does nothing to fight inflation. They are merely attempting to kick dirt over the steaming pile of shit they have made of our currency. The inflation remains. Go buy a pound of bacon, and there it is!
BERLUSKONNI ONLY NEEDS GIRLS, NOT GOLD !!!
Latest NASDAQ chart porn suggests fun times ahead:
http://stockmarket618.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/2011-11-05_nas-8_x.png
2451 tonnes of gold =~ $140 billion.
The problems is that germany don't have theirs to burn to bailout european banks. And the USA we all know the story... Good luck trying to bomb Italy and god bless Berlusconi who refuses to brun Italy's reserves saving those thieves.
A word of caution. Anyone who thinks that gold could shoot to $10,000 per ounce is dreaming. Even if that were to happen the system would be toast by then and chances are that nobody would be happy to sell gold for $10,000 per ounce for worthless paper unless they were paying off debts. Gold will simply hold its value admirably against the necessities of life. Stop dreaming that an ounce of gold will buy you a new small car. Even when fiat currencies are destroyed, relativities between real assets and commodities are largely maintained.
You got it half right. You will always be able to buy a really fine suit for an ounce of gold, just like always. But the suit will eventually be priced at $10,000.
Did you know that GLD SPDR would rank 6th on WGC's list of national gold reserves?? 1,239 tonnes.
and that it can be redeemed (effectively off-market) with the co-operation of the custodial banks in large quantities...that is one signal I am looking for, GLD being looted. Which the MSM will gleefully interpret as the bubble bursting.
Does it bother anyone how much the worlds paper debt eclipses the amount of gold in the world?
which is why, in the absence of any credible plan to reduce that debt, the price of gold is rising to the occasion.
the amount of debt and the price of gold are seeking equilibrium. There is plenty of gold to cover the debt...at a price.
The German people should by now be getting very worried,approx half of their gold is held in Fed banks in New York. If the shtf big time and they ask for it back what do you you think the chances are of them getting it?Maybe some promissary notes for future withdrawal at the exchange rate in the new currency?
In the coming months,extreme pressure will be brought upon German politicians to pledge their gold against future bailout plans via the ECB/IMF, who would trust these treasonous scum?
Look at what Merkel has been doing over the last six months to keep the Euro alive - against all logic and the laws of the EU(which bans the purchase of sovereign debt).
One only has to look at the sale of 60% of the UK's gold reserves by Gordon Brown between 1999 and 2002 to see the extent of the corruption,he justified it by saying it was to reduce risk - don't laugh. To ensure he got absolutely got the worst possible price, he warned the markets in advance that he was selling it and the average price was $275.
http://www.ashleymote.co.uk/?p=2893
And now we have Cameron, our Prime Minister falling over himself at the G20 to commit the bankrupt UK to the IMF bailout -if it is required to support the Euro - a currency which his country is not even a member of, in order to ensure the survival of the Euro. This is a politician who commited his party to a manifesto promise to a referendum for the British people to vote on the Lisbon treaty-and then reneged on that promise-you know the one,Ireland had to vote twice before they got it right:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2035430/UKIP-leader-Nigel-Farage-accuse-David-Cameron-mass-deception-voters-pre-election-promises-Europe.html
If anyone thinks the Euro is finished,they are seriously misguided,there are very large and dark forces behind its survival,all the European politicians are commited to its survival and there is literally nothing that is going to stop it.
The politicians of Europe re totally comitted to the Euro,and will do absolutley whatever it takes to ensure its survival,they will literally sell their respective countries into decades of poverty, misery and servitude. Make no mistake, the banksters will never allow the Euro to die.
Let's not forget that Portugal has 382.5 tons of gold. Why nobody asks them to throw their gold into the rescue pot, instead, they asked the Germans for their "holy" (according to Die Welt) gold for an all-in.
Die Welt: "Die Goldreserven der Bundesbank sind heilig" ("The gold reserves of Bundesbank are holy") ==>
http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article13701799/Die-Goldreserven-d...
What difference would it make to the sheeple if Gold were arbitrarily $45,000 per ounce and silver were at 10:1 ;)
(Baa)barous relic and worthless metal.
At least their iPads would be of value.
SO TD, you changed the total value from $155 billion to 140 and you are STILL wrong. You are using a long ton but 16 ounces per pound to get your results. THERE ARE 12 TROY OUNCES OF GOLD IN A POUND OF GOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know I am not ever going to get credit for straightening this out now 4 times, but I am SHOCKED that you all call yourselves gold experts and financially literate when you have got such a basic calculation WRONG!
2,451.8 METRIC TONS of gold right?
2,200 pounds in a metric ton, right?
12 TROY ounces in a pound, right?
2,451.8 X 2,200 X 12 = 64,727,520 ounces of Italian gold.
Multiply by 1793 spot price when I was writing earlier and you get
64,727,520 X $1,793 = 116,056,443,360.
I do not know WHAT you all were doing to get at some of your numbers, using euro? Using 2000 pounds to the ton, using 16 ounces to the pound, smoking some Acapulco GOLD? Makes me wonder how I get all those green arrows when NOBODY is reading what I post.
ASSUMING the figure represnts metric tons, the easy way to figure is
32,150 ounces troy per ton
At 1800 USD that is easily 140 billions. Jus' Sayin'.
You are just saying WRONG Ted. Go get twelve of your gold coins and an accurate scale, place the coins on the scale and it will read one pound. The The gold reserve data is in metric tons which are 2,200 US pounds, and there are 12 one ounce gold coins to the pound. Before I was a stockbroker, before I got my degree in finance I was a goldsmith in a jewelry manufacturer. I also was a dental tech doing crown and bridge in the military. If you want your weight in gold and you weigh 200 pounds you will get 200 pounds of gold, BUT you will only get 2,400 one ounce gold coins because a troy ounce heavier than a regular ounce. Most here seem to think they ought to get 200 X 16 = 3,200, and then they confuse the matter further by not realizing that TONNE is always 2,200 standard US pounds, it is metric, it is 1,000 kilograms and each kilo is 2.2 pounds, good god man have you never bought coke?
EDIT: Maybe this will help you all (TD included) it is an online conversion site that you can use to convert just about any weight or measure, length, area, cubic volume, metric, troy, liquids, easy to use. http://www.onlineconversion.com/
EDIT2:
The tonne (unit symbol t) or metric ton (US),[1] often written pleonastically as metric tonne, is a unit of mass equal to 1,000 kg (2,204.62 lb). It is sometimes abbreviated mt in the United States,[2] although this conflicts with other SI symbols. The tonne is not a unit in the International System of Units (SI), but is accepted for use with the SI.[3][4] In SI units and prefixes, the tonne is a megagram (Mg).
Again, no comment on what flavor of "ton" they are holding, no idea.
However, surely we can agree that:
A metric ton is 32,150.722 troy ounces
Correct?
Ted, please see mea culpa below, though in the dog fight of conversion I think important things have been lost. And correct. The conversion from metric ton to troy ounce is just that. If you did not have a bag on your head I would kiss you. ;)
Of course, if Italy tried to sell that gold, assuming it could locate it, it would flood the market and the price would immediately plummet. Although, China would probably quietly take it off their hands.
That's the Pope's gold fools! I honestly can't believe Italy has retained that mch of the gold it started accumulating in 46 BC or whenever Caeser was born.
I mean that dinky ass country is 4th?!?!?!?
In the US it's gold colored Tungsten.
It's all about gold. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and the Financial Crises. They are all about gold. The sooner people realize this, the sooner they will see what is going on.
Read:
https://www.createspace.com/3619184
I think it's a little rich arguing about how many troy ounces in a British Ton or a US ton who cares? Does anyone on this thread count his gold in tons? I think you are doing pretty OK if you can count your gold in pounds.
If you post nothing here of substance greater than GOLD BITCHEZZZZZ!!!!! or BTFD then you never have to eat crow. I stand beside my calculations and conversions, I triple checked and nothing I said was wrong, but when dealing with such large numbers the fuzzy little approximations will get you, I guess it is a vaguery that comes with eight years retirement.
I should have just gone to Banc d'Italia and their annual report in the first place, but some important things were lost in the argument about the value of Italian gold reserves, and that is that Italy has more than two trillion dollars worth of debt. They have hard assets well in excess of that debt, but gold is a very small amount of those assets. What can they do? Sell the Amalfi Coast to the Germans?
Same with Greece, how many Islands will be flying the German flag? Ireland? I guess they have some peat bogs they can let go of. Maybe they can sell the rights to the color green? And poor Portugal, it has not had two nickels to rub together since they gave up Macau, the last vestige of their once powerful empire built upon the slave trade.
Germany is like the anal retentive bully of Europe, they all believe if everyone was German the world would be a perfect place, and they are not all that wrong, but they take things to absurd extremes, they now accept that if Europe is going down it will be in an orderly way just as they see fit. What is it in the German soul that is so averse to disorder and chaos? I don't like disorder and chaos that much either, but I know enough to let people learn from their mistakes rather than pointing a gun to their head and telling them you VILL do this my way.
Anyway, if anyone feels offended by me to you I humbly apologize. And I look forward to our next encounter.
I just want to add a question....
Am I the ONLY person here that gets pissy and bloated and out of sorts just around daylight savings time clock changes? Twice a year in the spring and the fall I get really fucked up, my eating patterns, my attitude, even toilet issues for god sake. I am hungry at three, wake at 5, and everything is just a bit off like fish that might still be safe to eat after three days in the fridge. Believe it or not I consider this a quality of life issue that is more important than what TPTB do with money/gold. And it pisses me off that the reason for the time change was to save MONEY on candle wax. I say take the time of summer clocks, and the time of winter clocks, split the difference of half an hour and make it the time which will never change again. We have electric fucking lights now, and day/night is what it is, stop fucking up our lives basic patterns with daylight savings time. Really, the impact is a lot harder than you might think, wait till you are older and you will see. It takes me weeks to adjust to it, and if you were one of TPTB would you not want to do something as basic as this to keep your opponent of balance? OWS should add this to their list of demands.