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Spiegel Interviews Tsipras: "If Greece Is Destroyed, It Would Be Merkel's Fault"
The person who has caused global stock markets so much consternation by daring to play chicken with Germany until the bitter end conducts a no holds barred interview with Germany's Spiegel. There is little love lost between the Syriza leader and the Germans, who were quite surprised to find a political leader who is willing to play blink with Germany, with the ECB, and the developed world until the very end, or June 17, whichever comes sooner. Tsipras' bottom line: "We're trying to convince our European partners that it's also in their interest to finally lift the austerity diktat." Alas, the European "partners", as evidenced by Lagarde's Guardian interview this weekend, have an image of Greece as a bunch of lazy tax evaders, who only seek to mooch on the German teat, resulting in 60% of Germans now pushing for Greece to be kicked out of the Euro, consequences be damned. Nothing new there. What is curious is Tsipras' answer to the question everyone wants to ask: "If Greece ultimately exits the euro, you will also bear some of the blame. You promised your voters the impossible: retaining the euro while breaking Greece's agreements with the rest of Europe. How can such a plan find success?" His response: " I don't see any contradiction in that. We simply don't want the money of European citizens to vanish into a bottomless pit...we think these resources should also be put to sensible use: for investments that can also generate prosperity. Only then will we in fact be able to pay back our debts." Presumably this means that Greece infrastructure projects will not be commanded from the same location in the Athens ministry of finance which houses the now legendary following data room.
Yet the line that will draw the most ire out of the already exhausted German taxpaying public is the following:
"if our economic foundation is completely destroyed and the decisions of an elected Greek government are not responsible for it but, rather, certain political forces in Europe. Then they too will be guilty, for example Angela Merkel."
Well, in the US, it is all Bush's fault; in Greece, it appears to be Merkel.
Anyway, here is the full Spiegel interview, full of so much confusion, chaos, contradictions on all sides, that we urge a Blood alcohol level of at least 0.1 before commencing reading.
SPIEGEL: Mr. Tsipras, is Berlin really as bad as you always say back home in Athens whenever you rail against theevil Germans?
Alexis Tsipras: Berlin is my favorite capital city in Europe. It's too bad that I'm always here only briefly. I'd like to have more time.
SPIEGEL: You might be Greece's prime minister the next time you come to Berlin. If that happens, will Greece still be a member of the euro zone?
Tsipras: Of course. We'll do everything we can so that Greece can retain the euro. We're trying to convince our European partners that it's also in their interest to finally lift the austerity diktat. We need policies that don't destroy the Greek economy but, rather, allow for renewed growth. If the austerity course isn't changed, it will result in the complete destruction of the Greek economy. That would indeed be a danger to the euro.
SPIEGEL: But even some parts of Syriza, the leftist alliance you lead and which came in second place in the May 6 election, have been calling openly for a return to the drachma.
Tsipras: That's only a minority. In each party, no matter whether big or small, there are different orientations, different opinions. Then there will be a vote, and the majority decides. What's more, this minority among us isn't in favor of an exit from the euro, for example; it just wants to ensure that Greece can also survive, with the help of another currency, for example, if others have completely ruined our national economy.
SPIEGEL: Which "others" do you mean? The Greek economy is already in a shambles.
Tsipras: What I mean by that is if our economic foundation is completely destroyed and the decisions of an elected Greek government are not responsible for it but, rather, certain political forces in Europe. Then they too will be guilty, for example Angela Merkel.
SPIEGEL: Are you seriously claiming that the reforms which Europe is demanding as a precondition for loan assistance are the reason for Greece's miserable situation?
Tsipras: If we are once again pushed and blackmailed into an austerity program that has so obviously failed, then it won't be long before Greece is in fact no longer capable of paying its creditors. The result will be a halt in payments, one into which we were practically forced. This would not only be dangerous for Greece, but for the entire European economy. These days, the financial systems of all countries are so closely intertwined with each other that one can't limit the crisis geographically. It's a problem of all countries and of all national economies.
SPIEGEL: If Greece ultimately exits the euro, you will also bear some of the blame. You promised your voters the impossible: retaining the euro while breaking Greece's agreements with the rest of Europe. How can such a plan find success?
Tsipras: I don't see any contradiction in that. We simply don't want the money of European citizens to vanish into a bottomless pit. The fact that there is financial assistance is the principle of European solidarity and a mark of being part of a community. That's good. But we think these resources should also be put to sensible use: for investments that can also generate prosperity. Only then will we in fact be able to pay back our debts.
SPIEGEL: For you, other people are always the scapegoat. It's other people's fault that the economy is languishing, so other people also have to rescue it …
Tsipras: That's not correct; we naturally also take a critical look at ourselves. We bear significant responsibility for our situation. We've accepted politicians who have destroyed our country's manufacturing base and created a corrupt state. We have elected the very people who have stashed their money away abroad and not only allowed tax evasion to occur, but also fostered it. Of course we are responsible for that; we allowed it all to happen. But we also have the responsibility to change exactly that right now.
SPIEGEL: Given your dependence on financial support and your rejection of vital structural reforms -- such as that of the public administration -- already agreed on, how do you propose doing so?
Tsipras: We're not opposed to reforms. We're only saying what so many economists, what many German newspapers and what even former German Chancellor Helmut Schmidt are saying -- and what the OECD has now reconfirmed in a study: The austerity policies we've been implementing for two years -- the policy of solely relying on drastic belt-tightening -- have failed. We now find ourselves in the fifth year of the recession. This year too, our economy will once again contract by at least 6 percent.
SPIEGEL: Is that the complete truth? Even Alekos Alavanos, your old mentor and the former Syriza floor leader in parliament, has called on you to finally be honest with your fellow Greeks.
Tsipras: Alavanos left the party some years ago because he didn't share our conviction about remaining within the euro zone. It's fairly odd that I now have to justify myself for the fact that we -- like the vast majority of the population, incidentally -- want to stay within the euro association.
The political reality is simple: The austerity programs, as constructed thus far, have failed, partly because they've been based on a false model, namely, that of domestic devaluation. But we're not an exporting country. It is much more the case that most of what we produce, we consume. Our ability to compete doesn't only depend on labor costs, as so many people say; they also depend on other parameters, such as the infrastructure and the mind-set of people and politicians. We really do long for a bit more meritocracy …
SPIEGEL: The concept of merit-based remuneration hasn't made it all that far in Greece. Instead, there's widespread corruption, cronyism and clientelism -- not exactly an advantage when it comes to competitiveness.
Tsipras: I am aware of the problems the Greek state has. It was systematically run down by the politicians of ours who were in power. And many Greeks share in the blame: They've supported this system; they've sustained it by continually electing the same politicians. But this can't be the cause of the crisis but, rather, at most it is a symptom. The financial and debt crisis isn't purely a Greek problem -- otherwise, there wouldn't be high government deficits in other countries, as well, such as in Italy, Spain, Portugal and Ireland. So there must be other causes. That's why we have to analyze the structure of the community, its architecture. Also that of our common currency, the euro.
SPIEGEL: Do you see in François Hollande, France's newly elected Socialist president, a new ally in the battle against the austerity diktat coming out of Germany?
Tsipras: Hollande is clearly a great white hope for us. Now, ideas and arguments that haven't been listened to will once again be heard and discussed, such as a stronger role for the European Central Bank or the introduction of euro bonds. We can't just treat symptoms, or we really will stumble over Greece. That doesn't help anyone. If our country exits the euro zone, all of Europe is in danger. We mustn't fool ourselves about that.
SPIEGEL: The most recent talks in Athens aimed at forming a government failed because you refused to join in any coalition. At the moment, opinion polls indicate that your Syriza alliance is running neck and neck with the conservative Nea Dimokratia (New Democracy) party. Who would you like to partner with after the new elections on June 17?
Tsipras: We would, of course, like to have a left-wing coalition. And we'll do everything we can to make things add up in our favor this time.
Interview conducted by Julia Amalia Heyer and Manfred Ertel
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Blame German banks then and let them fail.
But don't blame Germany for Greece, that's ridiculous.
Who has a prediction for what Germany is going to do if Syriza wins? The Germans want it both ways: No major crisis, and limited responsibility for southern debt.
They can't have it both ways...
When people fail to choose then the choice is made for them
We have first class seats to the grand finale right here in Merika. Milestones
the answer is bargaining. As Syriza is already doing. For all this "dominance" idiocies and "leaving the eurozone" wishful thinking the Germans, the Finns, the Dutch, etc., etc. and the Greeks are bargaining about how to go ahead.
for all political posturing, the sovereigns are behaving as grown-ups, as they should do more often.
of course it would help if the "City of London Nexus" (hi sandmann - une "idee fixe" for you) would help by stopping taking bets on it, as the more honest bookies are already doing (hint, hint).
Because where they take bets, they have a book, and there is no sense in having a book if you don't talk it, does it? Which is the reason of so much nonsense in the media, Murdoch's and other's.
haggling sounds more appropiate.
yup. like between sisters, where the stodgy one is full of principles and the lively one is full of airs and pride and ideas (including haggling with the Kremlin)
Greece is a little pimple, not even relavent.... Anybody who thinks it is, is an idiot. Its the PRECEDENT set by Greece that is relavent. Bail Greece, then you are stuck with Portugal, Irleand, ITALY and SPAIN....... Kick Greece out and then you have all the banks to clean up....................
The only thing more laughable than that is the thought the US is somehow magically decoupled............. The longer the artificially pump the US, the deeper the elevator shaft is going to be when the doors open....
No way they keep it going till past November which is the game they are playing. By July 4 look for Dow sub 10K, and possibly more like 8K...... GLTA...
Cleaning up the banks sounds good to me. Let 'em "consolidate"; that's what they make us do.
Aaaah Bargaining! The five stages of greif. I think "depression" is coming soon.
http://grief.com/the-five-stages-of-grief/
I don't really get. Can't Germany just walk away with the Target2 money and say FU Tsipras ? FU Hollande ? FU Draghi ?
Must be my German genes speaking...
I believe foreign central banks owe Germany vast sums of money through Target2. They would refuse to pay Germany back if Germany decided to cut off the funding. The sort of calamaty something like that would cause would probably not be acceptable.
Are you quoting Clarke and Dawes?
The only real danger posed by a post-EURO Europe to Germany would be a coordinated embargo/customs duty block.
And refuse to pay ? With what exactly ?
What type of threat is that ? Instead of the bottomless bailout pit ?
1. What about the bank runs that would happen?
2. Target2 has allowed the profligates to pay their bills with the German's money, quite a lot of it. They owe Germany back any money that is transferred to them. It would be easy to default, and ruin the balance sheet of the German Central Bank.
3. Let's remember we're talking about politicians, who only want to kick the can down the road, and avoid all of the real problems. The threat of a bottomless bailout pit is only apparent to politicians when their constituents start figuring it out.
1) Deposit insurance for banks in Germany , payable in hard German currency.
2) Like i said, they won't pay their debts anyway.
3)Yes, politicians always love the easy way out.
You really wonder why? Your answer is on pages 142-145
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-GI-10-002/EN/KS-GI-10-002-EN.PDF
This is how they destroyed the periphery with the monetary union.
And of course, they cannot simply get the TARGET2 money from anyone if they walk away. They can print mark, which will madly appreciate the day they issue it. So it's not so easy my friend..
I know it's kind of reprehensible. But you know no one will pay whatever happens.
Just like JP Morgan walking away from mortgages after Fukushima.
don't mention JPM. it's forbidden in this newscycle. we don't know yet if the bottomless derivatives pit reached hell
Who dares to call it default ?
Treason doth not prosper
Whats the reason?
For if it prosper none dare call it treason
Just substitute default for treason
A JPM report with various charts and squiggly lines will be posted shortly. Depending upon the content, it'll be regarded as either gospel or bullshit, hard to say which.
Germany is fucked no matter what. The question is do they take it up the ass good and hard in a one time deal or do they fund a permanent transfer union and get fucked up the ass every day just a little bit, but forever without end
It's a question if one can deal with the permanent economic blowback, or the one time political one.
dear macroeconomist, about "how they destroyed the periphery with the monetary union".
you are using the EU27 trade statistics. nice. very good. never happened to see before on ZH. +1
the eurozone is smaller (17), so you have to adjust the totals but for this arguments the details are better because:
- you are arguing that Germany is taking advantage through the monetary union, which is wrong
- this "advantage" would be the trade balance with Spain (+12), France (+25) and Italy (+10), Greece (+4) and Portugal (+2) in 2009.
- now please explain to me for the same year Belgium (-6) or the Netherlands (-31!). Frigging Germany "destroying" the periphery while being "destroyed" by the Dutch and the Belgians?
- and now the non-EUR countries: UK (+20) and Sweden (+5). eh? how is this possible, are they handling their currencies wrongly?
nah, I'm sorry, you have to study a bit more the details of the european trade flows before you jump on the right side of those conclusions...
and by the time you "grok" the intra- and extra- trade flows of europe, you'll understand my point, I think
What you are mistaken with is that you are taking one year as reference point. Try plotting the trade deficits of Greece, Spain and Portugal against Germany from 2001 to 2008 as % of their GDP (not 2009 as the figures represent the first year of the recession and the deficits are much lower for the peiphery, since growth, which depends on deficits, has turned negative. That happens with all countries that experience real exchange rate appreciations followed by a recession, the first year of the recession deficits fall. Sometimes countries even run abrupt current account surpluses if depreciation/GDP contraction is strong enough. Since there is no depreciation involved in this case, the fall in deficits are not large enough to turn them to surpluses) You will see a gradual worsening of the trade balance against Germany as % of GDP for all these countries, which led to the demise of their industries. How on earth they were hoping to compete against German exports with such sluggish industries, and how they were convinced to join the Euro is the mystery.
You can clearly see that Germany's intra-EU trade balance is a sharply increasing surplus after the adoption of the Euro but trade with non-EU is almost constant.
Of course they are not destroyed by the Dutch, if you look at the Dutch stats (page 247) they have benefited from all this as well, and they have a trade surplus against all countries except (surprisingly) Ireland. They were already very competitive before the Euro and also gained from it at the expense of the south.
However, with regards to Netherlands and Germany, you are picking up one point and inferring from that. If you look at Germany's trade deficit against Netherlands as % of their GDP from 2000 to 2009, you will see that there is no clear trend (Did you know that Germany was running current account deficits for 10 years in a row from 1992 to 2002) Quite the contrary, the ratio of trade deficit to German GDP slightly fell during this time.
I am writing a paper on this topic and have looked at these statistics for days. I am not talkig off my head.
I am looking forward to read your paper, and I'm looking at these statistics since a while longer. If you want to take several years you still have to understand what is being passed from country to country.
My take is that the competitive advantage that Germany enjoys - as you correctly pointed out 1992 to 2002 were quite different - are not mainly due to the EUR, they are mainly due to the Agenda 2010, i.e. the way the Germans changed and liberalized their labour market. The two events just overlap. But they are somehow distinguishable if you keep your eyes open on how the other northern countries fared.
The UK has to be explained, too. It's famously proud of not belonging to the eurozone. And Italy can't be explained without the financial balance of payments.
I sincerily do hope that while writing your paper you don't blind yourself with the preconception of the FX "advantage". Yes, the intrazone trade increased, but that was part of the whole point, wasn't it? There is also to factor in how much of this "international" trade is within the same companies or de-facto conglomerates.
A hint: the Dutch statistics are misleading, you have to take in account what passes through Rotterdam from the outside. This is what "destroys" my point above.
I fully agree with that, and I've been trying to get hold of detailed goods trade among countries, I'd really appreciate if you could please let me know somehow if you come across those stats somewhere. and thanks for warning about the Rotterdam effect, I hadn't thought of that.
You're right about Italy, there's somehing different going on in Itay and Ireland (Ireland runs trade surpuses against Germany and Netherlands and most of the other EU countries. I'm quite curious to find out why this is the case)
With regards to UK, I think the answer for UK mainy lies in the ability of the City to attract funds. A similar de-industrializaion is true for UK as well, immense flow of funds to London is enabling the huge deficits UK manages to run for so many years.
And the real important figures are the unit labour costs within the union. Different inflation rates and different labour market policies increased the ULC for the south hugely in the last ten years.
More water torture.
am i the only one here who wants to smack the sunglasses off the chicks face that is wearing the "meh" t-shirt......
I will not buy anymore t-shirts till the redhead is back.. In a sheer bra...
But.....but.....at least Merkel can tie more than three words together in a common sentance.
Huh?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zANvYB93u2g
From a purely political perspective, Tspiras appears to be setting himself up well. The other parties are contesting against each other. Tspiras may be trying to set himself up as running against Merkel. My guess is Merkel is vastly more unpopular in Greece than the other major party leaders (I haven't seen a poll address that particular issue).
This interview guaranteed greece will be kicked out or leave on their own whichever phrase makes you feel better
can you spot the brown chair?
Another reason why Greece will NEVER BE FIXED.
Treat Greece for the charity case it is.
Does anyone think the bailout money is ever gonna be repaid?
One years in zerohedge, zero knowledge. Read the other posts too before writing your junk comments.
All the bailout money goes BACK to the same banks.
Hey, bite me bucko.
if you think Greece is gonna repay anything in this or the next lifetime, you are dreaming.
"Of course. We'll do everything we can so that Greece can retain the euro. We're trying to convince our European partners that it's also in their interest to finally accept that they need to work harder and longer for us to maintain our way of living. We need policies that don't destroy the Greek economy but, rather, allow for us Greeks to retire at a reasonable age, say 45. If the austerity course isn't changed, it will result in the complete destruction of the Greek economy and force the Greek people to work and produce themselves. That would indeed be a danger."
It is possible for Greece to "retain the euro while breaking Greece's agreements with the rest of Europe". In order to do it Greeks simply need to declare default and manage to balance their budget
For 2011, they ran a 9 percent deficit during "austerity". From what I've been able to find, they are spending about 20 percent of their budget on interest on the debt. If they had zero debt, they would be spending 88 percent of their current revenue under the current austerity. If managed carefully, I suppose it would be possible to slightly increase spending and run a surplus if they had no debt.
Alas, the European "partners", as evidenced by Lagarde's Guardian interview this weekend, have an image of Greece as a bunch of lazy tax evaders, who only seek to mooch on the German teet
Is that image inaccurate?
it's not really relevant. Greeks are proud, not stupid. In fact, they are both inordinately proud and smart, best shown in the fact that you have to take this strongly in consideration if you want to get into the panties of a Greek girl...
if everybody else pays taxes, they do. but if there is in any way a loophole that is taken by others, it would be shaming and stupid to belong to the sheep that still do. and so on. it's a cultural thing that can have astonishing results in times of change, as Greek history shows.
The hours worked statistic suggests it is. Now, why would an IMF head come out and make such statements?
Lagarde's own nation does no such thing as 'mooch' right?
This hours worked statistic? Puts the Greeks third just behind the chileans and south koreans in terms of hours worked.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18144320
Tsipras: I don't see any contradiction in that
lmao...
Greeks are lazy,yes,but no more than other southern Europe nations.Never lend money to them-they gonna dyi,but wont give you money back.Ordinare people are not guilty for "free"money the cabal was pooring above the country.There are old proverb in northern border of Greece-"Is not crazy whoever eat the free baklava.Crazy is those who is giving the baklava".As we all know there is not free baklava,so all of this is designed to happend.
Really? I thought it would have been Greece's fault for borrowing so much to cover their outrageous entitlements. And is Spain's housing collapse the fault of Merkel too?
Der Spiegel should change its name to Der Dumkopf!
http://confoundedinterest.wordpress.com/2012/05/28/another-day-on-the-med-greece-improves-spain-and-bankia-slide/
I wonder if Merkel will be more prudent than Christine in her response to this populist rehtoric...
We shall B-b-b-b-b-b-bail!
Because we don't know any better
This is the new shit
"Merkel went on to earn a BS in physics and her PhD in quantum chemistry"
Mr. Tsipras is going against QUANTUM physics doctor....really not a wise move! You will go back crying to Greece and with Schrödinger's cat stuffed in your asshole.
Of course Tsipras is taking an unrealistic tack, at least on the surface. The Euro was designed by the elite to enslave the people of Europe and destroy the middle class. They wish to return to feudalism and regard a prosperous middle class as their most dangerous enemy. Let the Hunger Games commence. Greece is a small, pilot plant experiment. Tsipras is saying that - yeah we want to stay in the Euro, but we want the controllers of the Eurozone to turn it into a structure that will benefit all the people and not just the banksters, the corporatists, and their political lackeys. Well, that ain't gonna happen.
I am amazed by the number of down ticks this comment has received. No nation or group of nations would spend so much saving such an insignificantly economic nation unless there is an agenda.
And that agenda is to save the idiot banks that lent without due diligence, to asset strip Greece, to send a warning to the other PIIGS and to cover up the fact that the financial structure of the Euro is so fragile that even a tiny nation like Greece can unleash a domino effect.
The mighty nations of Europe will be humbled before this is all over.
If european banks fail then anglo saxon finance rules the developed world. After all it is hard to build a thriving megabanking system from the charred financial remains of the eurozone post banking collapse
i guess these kind of plans work /sarc
I dont think attempts to save the continental banks will succeed. If it does then they become zombies.
The fear is if these banks arent saved but allowed to fail then angloAmerican finance will thoroughly dominate the world a bit longer
That is the real consequence of the eurozone banking collapse if it happens
... until the $230 trillion tons derivatives hammer lands on their heads.
Who are you again?
Honestly in my mind the umbilical cord should have been cut when Greece started having its problems and the pain may be just about over. Yes it does indeed take two to tango but the blame lies with Greece and its crooked political system. Once they EU politician knew they could not pay that should have been the end of this fiasco. Instead the EU elite thought they could spend their way out of this mees, it sounds vaguely familiar to the USA. When this mess is over the USA is next.
But dropping more good money down a black hole is just stupid the Greeks do not even want to pay their frigging property taxes or hire a firm to install camo netting so they do not pay for their pools. Once thing about the USA you pay or you lose. But that is even changing and now you feel kinda sorta stupid to pay. At least this administration and the media think so.
I laugh all the time thinking Greece has the EU over a barrel right now!
Had they cut the umbilical cord with Greece as you rightly say, it would have been French and German banks that would have failed and their nations would have followed.
So Peter now we the fricking taxpayers are paying for it. They move the bad debt to national banks and wallah for them the problem was solved. Nothing has changed and it did not change when Greece had it so called soft default. The soft default took them back hmm ,wait for it 120% of GDP where the problem began. I may be stupid but even I knew it was not going to work. When it was all said and done it was 170% of GDP. This is such a charade at our expense.
Wiki, John Connally "In 1971, Republican President Nixon appointed the then Democrat Connally as Treasury Secretary. Shortly after taking the treasury post, Connally famously told a group of European finance ministers worried about the export of American inflation that the dollar "is our currency, but your problem."
How times have changed...now many are bitching and moaning about Germany. They should relax, become lazy and sloppy! We need crappily built audis and beemers!
Well, speaking as a crypto facist myself, I think this left wing pinko Tsipra guy made refreshing sense. All over the world we seem to be committed to walking the walk as laid out by by politicians. It's all very well saying we voted them in. The point is we never find out how corrupt and incompetent they are until it's too late. It's like getting married. If Greece wants a fresh deck and a new dealer, they should go for it, and let the chips fall where they may. I must speak for some when I say we've had enough of this shit dragging on for years. To use a Greek word, let's have catharsis. As my Spanish neighbours might say, "Venga!". ("bring it on")
+1 End the farce.
Yes. End the farce that is called a Euopean Union.
charts and setups: http://capital3x.com/think-tank/charts-technical-vs-the-fundamental-in-f...
clubMed-Nafrica: run-0ff
other election for mid-june: e-GYP_T
Egypt: Mursi and Shafiq Get Most Votes to Contest Run-off for Presidency The Muslim Brotherhood's Mohamed Mursi and Ahmed Shafiq, who served as prime minister in Mubarak's final days in power, came first and second, respectively, following two days of voting in the presidential election in Egypt that kept millions of Egyptians holding their breath. The two will now participate in the runoff, scheduled to take place on June 16-17.Hmmm.... and exactly WHO lied and cheated to get into the EU? And lied and cheated consistently up to this day?
But then again it was Germany herself who was the first county to go over the 3% rule and even managed to finagle its way out of having to pay any penalty for doing so.
Conclusion: The entire EU/EURO fata morgana is nothing bogus political BS.
Actually Germany lied and cheated first to start the EMU. The French have also paid nothing in fines.
How about Goldman? Oh that's right, we can't talk about that since it unravels the simple little narrative that is so easy to follow.
Conclusion: When 'Merika confronts GS over their numerous shady dealings not least the Greek one, the rest of the world might actually listen to what you have to say --that is, if they're not too busy breathing a sigh of relief-- until then enjoy ever increasing irrelevance.
I think the only ones that never cheated are the Finns. But the Finns have understood that any "Brussels diktat" can only get through if your own government allows it (and therefore you have to lobby your own govt), something the authority-driven Brits are still very, very confused about.
Nationalize Nokia!!!
I'm sorry... I have Tourette's. It's just... they nursed that baby to full health and now...
Try to get your facts right.
"Portugal’s deficit in 2001 was greater than 3 percent, followed by Germany’s and France’s from 2002 to 2004, as well as subsequent breaches by Italy, the U.K., and The Netherlands in 2004."
Oh, so Portugal beat Germany by one year. Big deal, which proves exactly what?
That to underline your point you're either picking the facts as they suit you, or are blindly parroting others who do so. A Krugmanite in style. Only the "no big deal" when called out you have to work on a bit ;-)
OK, I love people like you that find one little piece of information and make it into one big f...ing deal. Wow, you sure are impressive with that huge amount of insight you think you have. Which is why you have so many positive feedbacks...
If you haven't realized, it seems to have come into fashion right now to make ze Germans the strawman for everything, and I have a dislike for running-with-the-crowd bashers especially if they cannot even get their facts right.
If the central planning had any sense it would just crash the euro by 30 % and not bother about Eurobonds or so-called "austerity" micromanagement in the EU countries with double question marks.
Both sides are blowing smoke at each other. If you listen to how Europeans talk to each other you know the solution is not likely. THE SYSTEM OF HAVING BANKS LEVERAGE UP AT WILL ON A CROSS BORDER BASIS ONLY TO HAND THE DEBT TO THEIR RESPECTIVE GOVERNMENTS WHICH THEN ENCUMBER THE CENTRAL UNION WAS A DELIBERATE ATTEMPT AT MUTUALLY INSURED DESTRUCTION & PROSPERITY.
Germany bears as much blaim as Greece. You don't loan money to a know profligate person and then yell at them when they are profligate and cannot or will not return your money.
The Germans are intentionally draging this out so as to get their own banks as clear of the fall out as possible.
On the Greek side they are very lucky. What Germany should be doing is pushing for all greek debt to be packaged up into a 30 year term loan with interest only payments based on super low rates. The EU/ECB spigots should then be turned off and the EU partners would have the option of rolling interest into the term on a time value basis.
Greece would then need to make hard choices day to day to pay the bills. A socialist government will be great. Unless they leave the Euro, they will have to continually cut nominal spending until an equillibrium is reached.
This scenario dings both Greece and the Troika and private lenders but the problem will be solved much quicker and states will be much less likely to let their banks be profligate in the future.
The Germans, French, Italians and Spanish believe they can quietly inflate while the banks deleverage and bail out their banks like the United States had done. Their problem is they have too many large systemic banks that need to take write downs and they do not have the infrastructure to manage this (EU wide FDIC). In reality, the FDIC was closing banks like crazy in the US, even though Washington back stopped the half a dozen money center banks with nuclear derivative portfolios. Every country in Europe has a few such banks. When the music stops there cannot be seats for all of them.
What a smooth liar, agitator, and propagandist!
Edit: Oh, but he's a self-declared leftist, so nothing to worry about.
New GOLD Indicator released: http://capital3x.com/the-code/subscription-new-subs/
If I am not mistaken Greece is already destroyed.
Cato or Farage the Elder ?
Diogenes the cynic. Cato only farted about one thing : Carthago delenda est! He was Dulles's model. Like all those cold war crusaders. Now that Carthago has delenda, they are lost for new enemies. To think that WS quakes because of puny Greece is like the Romans mistaking Cleopatra's Alexandria for Hannibal's Carthage. But this is no longer Caesar's Rome. More like Orestes and ...never mind, his name was unpronounceable anyways.
No, Farage the Misunderstood. Here: http://youtu.be/F3e6IWsJA9U
Tsipras is the First Person I have heard to be concerned with PAYING BACK any money. Kudos.
whenever they see me, the first thing my debtors talk about is that debts have to be paid back, of course, with no delay, etc. etc..... must be a coincidence
+1 Talk is cheap.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/new-computer-virus-hits-ir...
Alleged US/NATO backed weapons intercepted in Lebanon; Obama calls for rapid Syrian regime change at G-8; Obama says Yemen should be template for Syria; US advisers deployed to Syria; AQ massacre in Yemen; Obama signs executive order to support Yemen insurgency/handover; Syria massacre for which a security council calls for rapid action; Egyptian Brotherhood into election rd 2 (?) calls for outside intervention in Syria to stem fighting; Egypt receives $1B loan from KSA to tie it over until IMF $3B deal can be worked out.
Arabic for sequential payer
Ah, how the concept of prosperity, and the concept of interest, and the concept of prosperity through interest mingle and juxtapose in just that certain special luciferian way.
The concept is not difficult, though 'they' wish us not to see it. Interest and debt are immoral, unsustainable, and evil by nature. Perhaps something, maybe the one thing, that Islam has right. Call it Ponzi, boombust, a racket, leverage, or a rose by any other name; I call it wrong and so have countless wise teachers.
If you and I are on an island, and you have THE one 'dollar' or puca shell... Well you 'loan' me that one puca dollar currency to live and start a life. Simplistic I know. However... If you charge interest... Well there are no other puca dollars in existence so how can I give you 1.1 or 2 puca dollars? I am destined to default... unless... you miraculously present more puca dollars; no? Or... perhaps I spend my loan term providing 'service' to the lender... Maybe mining more puca dollars so you can loan me more bc you had/created the first, forever indentured. Its hard to see bc it looks so good. Youll just... give me the puca dollar if I promise to find a way to give two back, sweet. Not. The lender creator controls default at all times. Maybe I print enough to get us by maybe I let you fall... whatever works for me, and you will do anything to get by or else... you wont.
Simple, and perhaps a horrid example, but interest is Ponzi and TPTB. It is the why of it, and horrifyingly simple.
One way. One way only. Cycle. I loan you the one puca dollar in existence, and spend the 'interest' into the economy for you to find. You can only give me 1.1 if I put the .1 in for you to give back because there is only one. Dont you see? This is why money is a public utility not a private endeavor, it cant be unless its a Ponzi where boom is assured and controlled. Want to 'grow', then the creator entity must input or spend into the economy more than the loan plus interest, but 'growth' has issues and cannot be forever. Grow in Spring. Take out in Winter. Breathe in. Breathe out. Fuck me the people that set this up were stupid, evil, and brilliant at the same time.
There is one game, one game only. Be the person who 'loans' the one puca dollar. Some bad people have been playing it for quite sometime.
I will repeat. Maybe my post helped or didnt... But... Money is a public utility at definition, and cannot be a private endeavor lest it become a Ponzi where boombust is assured and controlled. Period.
The way to rid ourselves of the banking Interests that control and distort the economy is simple
Treat loans and interest payments equally with capital and dividends.
There would be no incentive to prefer loans in the financial structure of a business. Sinking funds in the early twentieth century almost made corporations independent of banks. Then along came the fed and a minor tax law change. Interest payments on loans were treated more favorably than capital (stock certificates)
Tsipras is a fire starter. It doesn't really matter what you think of him. The fuse has been lit and the biggest bomb will burst the loudest.
I say spit in his eye and call he an asshole!
A country in the outmost Southeastern part of the EU has grasped the headlines for quite some time. With only 2% of the EU's economy and just 2.5% of its debt it became the "Witch" that is haunted by puritan Northern Europeans. It is claimed as the epicenter of laziness, lust and unproductively for the whole of the Continent, a bad example that pious Northerns should be feared and loath at the same time.
This country is Greece and it must be punished! But is it really the witch hunt that has started in 2009 the most stupid move ever made in the entire European history? Is it worth to blame Greeks for the lonely dark winters up in the North and for the depression syndrome that cripples the lives of dozens of millions northern Europeans, as if Greece makes the weather?
In reality the Northern Europeans risk of pushing Greece into the broader global community where it is going to be free from investing heavily in its defense of the Eastern gates of Europe and it will bring about the greatest change in the balance of powers that Europe has felt since the collapse of the Berlin war. This time Germany will not be re-united, rather it will has to pay a dear price for its energy security. Netherlands will not become richer; rather it will have to pay from its own pocket in order to save itself from the flood of narcotics and Asian immigrants.
Austria will not be greater, rather it will have to deal with powder-keg named "Balkans" that has markets Vienna's history.
How Northern Europe shoot its leg, in order to satisfy the populist sentiments of an electorate being used to the fairy tales of "bad witches and pious farmers".
Panagiotis Traianou answers to many of the aforementioned questions and gives a proper solution on his article entitled “GREECE RANKS AMONG THE WITCHES OF SALEM”
http://eamb-ydrohoos.blogspot.com/2012/05/greece-among-salem-witches.html
.
For TPTB, Greece is being used here as a convenient pawn re their future "moves."
as if the the austerity program is a Greek plan? Like the Far left Syriza has a credible growth plan for Greece? Like the ND and Pasok growth plans, what plans? buy the electorate with Troika cash until recently? Thank you Greece and Troika, can we have more austerity and the status quo until morale and growth returns?
We just don't yoke well. Nothing personal, Mr. Tzatziki. Keep frying the Calamaris. It's been 10 years and our marriage hit a pretty rough patch. Let the divorce precedings commence. I'm too tired to be bothered anymore.
Yours truly,
Angie
I still have to say I love the europeans. Look at the knock down drag out debates they have in the press? They are much more open and transparent than the usa press.
Fuck the usa press. Der Spiegel has the best interviews. No puff pieces here
Write the Spiegel about creating an US edition.
Can't be worse than TIME or Newsweek...or so i believe.
Thank God for us there's Zerohedge.
The Spiegel would be fawning over interviews with Barney Frank and Nancy Pelosi.
ow, ow, ow, the Spiegel is good, but very, very stubborn about certain ideological stances. it's still basically leftist with a radical chic touch. you would call it east-coast-liberal, I'd guess...
Most articles sound like they were edited by affirmative action lesbians with PMS.
But most media sounds to me that way anyhow.
Not that there is anything wrong with articles, affirmative action, lesbians, PMS or media as such.
Our politicians in the usa would never allow such interviews. The interview with Juncker was amazing also
Don't ask them to interview Obama.
Nicht überbewerten!
Ah. This guy just wants his German cake. To eat it and send the bill back to Germany.
Not only that, he's including a complaint about the slightly burnt crust and creased cream layers.
If the Germans doesn't get it now (to kick the Greeks out of the Euro), they haven't for 3 years by now.
The German taxpayers truly deserves to foot the bill. For being stoopid.
It's the destiny of the Krauts to pay at the end of the day, always, call it "Erblast".
There is no German Charles Ponzi.
So there are no other choice to call it than the Schäuble Plan or Merkels Schuldenpyramidenspiel.
So why is that?
Oh yes, they lost the WW2, didn't they?
Them not so bright Yanks bombed Germany into rubble and we all know who run the Evangelical Yanks? Da Jooz do.
Trichet the goat
Merkel the villian
Bernanke the superhero
Haha Greece
Europes C student
Bush II was proud to be a C student, wasn't he? ;-)
I went to my local cash-for-gold place this evening because they have a bureau de change giving the same rates as a proper bank and are open til 6pm.
I bought some Euros for a trip to France next week, and as the cashier got them out of the drawer I said 'Can I have none with a Y-prefix, please', not expecting her to know what I was talking about.
She said 'Don't worry, we don't take them. We're getting mostly X's at the moment'.
You got it
i can never remember which are the boys and which are the girls
with the yuan, no problemo...
here's this moronic fiat ponzi game and we're cheering on the homey teams and booing the umps and not-homeys like it was the littleLeageWorldSeries or something!
now, there's some cheating, too! ya gotta love a 17 year-old greasing up the apple and throwing at a 12 year old's head while her mother's watching
nothin like it in all sports!
How is the USA any different than Greece? Both economies rest on a foundation of unpayable debt. The USA is dependent on the kindness of strangers buying Treasuries or trading commodities in dollars just as the Greeks are dependent on the kindness of Germans. The only difference is that the Greeks have found the end of their rope sooner because they can't print their way out of it as long as they stay in the Eurozone.
CTRL-P Cometh...watch how the Greek election is hijacked like every other.
Never seen a longer interview of a commie talking another commie about how awesome print money is and spending other people's WORK...because that's what money represents. Work...not capital...work.
My head is spinning after reading that.
Capital is deferred consumption from work
A caveman finds a wild animal. Instead of killing it and earing it he raises it, finds another, breeds them, and capital accumulation begins
Quantitative easing, control P, even Keynes admitted it was theft of capital but keynes also thought most were stupid and focused on nominal value, thus stealing capital surreptitiously was ok because no one protested and it was good for the whole, supposedly
Some here are saying Greece is but a pimple. Some argue that Greece only represents 2.5% of Eurodebt (i believe it is quite a bit more...Tyler finds 1.3 trillion as total debt and obligations).
Well, with the ECB and many of Europe's large banks levered 40:1, the 2.5% pimple is a boil, an abcess.
Next step: blame an antire nation of people. We all know what comes after that...
History is repeating itself in Europe once again. The EU created exactly what it wanted to prevent.
If Greece is forced out their sovereign creditors will expect the EU to assume the Euro debt.
If Greece exits of their own accord such would establish a precedent for secession. The Greeks will stay. Believe it!!!
A simple question targeting weird Anglo-Saxon and German traders….
In Maastricht Treaty says that in euroland we share a common banking market…
What the heck makes a German bank to be able to put a finger in our deposits without being in the same time obliged to lend us if we ask?
(As private sector business I speak out)
Is it normal to have all south euroland deposits parked in their banks and say:
“Hey these stupid guys they made a mess… let them drawn…”
What makes us, the private sector SMEs and individuals, to disserve this?
Hay all you nuts, if you want to have rights, you have to accept obligations attached and one fundamental obligation when we signed the treaties was the:
F@cking Common Banking Market!!!!
Do we have it? NO WE DON’T !!!
Who to blame? EUROCRATS, GERMANY et al and BANKERS…!!! So back off…
There are no laws forcing a bank or government to lend to anyone, neither in the UK or Germany to people inside or outside of the EU.
Are there any in Greece/Portugal/Ireland ?
This is a general discussion of how trickle down economics work or dont work in the first place.
Do you really want more lending and debt ? More easy credit - for what exactly ? For the government/consumption/infrastructure projects ?
There might not exist a law that forces a bank to lend, but there are illegal acts which violate the very basic notion of a common market that banks do.
Like discrimination by “country of residence” or “establishment”.
If I don’t have a chance not even to be assessed because where I live happens to be a bad neighborhood… Mediterranean… how you expect to get lending? I might be the next Apple…
It’s not about federalism its plain violation of antitrust rules…
The Tragedy of the Commons
You should read about it and think about how it applies in government budgeting and europeanwide financial conflict
isn't this then all about fake federalism? You can't share currency without sharing sovereignty.
It's like as if that was math or something
Opa!
Ohhh no you di’int. You got served… and if you dance back… its ON… and if its ON you gonna get F’ed in the A. Sorry watching South Park right now. Thought I’d bring a bit of levity to the debate.
Anyway
Here is what I was responding to:
“Yes, it's their fault to force ECB to lower interest rates and allow the real exchange rates in the periphery to appreciate, and literally suck the blood out of them with the monetary union and then turn around and say "sorry we can’t do anything", while their banks get bailed out implicitly.”
The way I read it, you are claiming that the reason that Greece has huge debts is because the ECB cut interest rates and Greece didn’t have their own exchange rate to FORCE them to not buy more. Worse, you are implying that the Germans did this in order to force other countries in the currency union to buy things from them that they couldn’t afford – and thus become debt slaves. I will agree that non-existent lending standards and the stupid availability of credit allowed Greece to run up huge deficits and debts and low interest rates allowed Greece to finance them, but that’s not causality. They could have elected NOT to buy what they couldn’t afford.
MY claim is that the Corrupt Socialist Greek Government played THE critical role in preventing personal responsibility from kicking in. The CSGG borrowed on behalf of the few Greeks that produce more then they consume WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION and gave that money to the millions of Greek parasites that get over generous wages and benefits or welfare payments from the Government – allowing them to consume more then they produce. Absent over generous wages and benefits to public sector employees; people not getting a job till they are 30, working 30 hours a week with 8 weeks paid holiday and retiring at 50; and >50% of the population receiving net payments from the government – this would not have happened. Had the Greek government raised taxes instead of borrowing – the productive Greeks would have stopped being productive or they would have left 10 years ago. But the CSGG borrowed money on their behalf, sold their children into slavery and lied to them about how bad it was.
However the fact that Externally Funded Budget Deficits ALLOW Trade Deficits OR Private Surpluses =/= Trade Deficits CAUSE Budget Deficits. Unless you assume some huge conspiracy between independent actors (German Government, German Exporters and German Lenders). But you are right that the German government faces a stark choice: give Greece $ so they can pay off their lenders OR bail out the German banks on their losses. However, I would claim that choice A will result in the German Lenders getting less money then they could otherwise extract from the Greek Parasites, and will result in Germany bailing out the banks of 26 other countries. Choice B will result in smaller losses. You only pay for a portion of the bad loans German banks made to Greece (and none of the French/Nordic/Bennelux etc Banks). And if done correctly you can force the correct parties to take their fair share of losses. Equity and junior debt are wiped out. Senior debt takes a moderate haircut and depositors take none.
Also, Im guessing you are an English Econ Prof – correct? Can I ask – how does the world hitting the Keynesian end point feel? Its going to repudiate your entire career. Austrians FTW!
What hope is there for Greece or for the Euro if none of the European politicians are prepared to admit what the problem really is?. Just to be clear the problem is systemic and is due to the privately owned fractional reserve banking system. Using an analogy this operates like a parasite living off the European economy and charging interest for the money it invents and lends. The problem is that there is too much debt and so the parasite is taking too much blood (money) from Europe in interest and this has triggered a dominoe collapse with the weakest parts (Greece) failing first. Germany is just a stronger dominoe but is facing the same failure that the rest of Europe is facing unless the system is changed. This means blaming Germany is just straight out foolish.
The people to blame are those that are profiting from this situation and that means the Rothschilds. They should be the ones both tasked with fixing this problem and being held accounatble for creating it. Looking further forward if the banking system was publicly owned the interest would be being recycled and so this situation would not recur. Having the Rothschilds taking around two thirds of Europe's income in interest payments for the money they have invented is the real core of the problem. A politician would have to be very stupid or very corrupt to miss this and that they all have is so tragic it is almost farcical.
Uh, it seems to me Mr. Tsipras is not blaming the Germans for the mess they're in. Some people need basic reading comprehension skills.
He's blaming Merkel "if our economic foundation is completely destroyed" alluding to these bank bailouts disguised as Greece bailouts combined with the medicine of austerity measures.
Has zerohedge not been screaming for 2 years that this would end badly for Greece, and Europe? How many 1,000s of comments on here have been excellent and thorough descriptions of the banksters colonizing and raping Greece?! Seems like Tsipras agrees...