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3 Days Into The Month = $169 Billion Of Debt Redeemed
Three days into the month, and the Treasury has already redeemed $169 billion in debt, of which $137 billion in Bills. Run-rated (for Bills alone) this is about $5.5 trillion annually, or basically 63% of all marketable US debt. And somehow the Treasury is lowering the amount of new bond issuance beginning next week. We wonder just where Tim Geithner will get the much needed cash to plug not only the increasing daily deficit spending (today alone the US burned $21 billion net of debt transfers, gross the number was even worse), as well as to fund daily rolls once rates start eventually increasing. This is financial suicide, although the Treasury knows that all too well. It is now stuck in a corner and has no way out than to hope for the best.
Total US debt today was $13.06 trillion. Total debt on March 6, 2009 was $10.95 trillion. The government has spent $2.1 trillion dollars to create a bear market rally which has now fizzled, and to fund a fiscal stimulus that is now dancing its death rattle. GDP will now gradually roll over, the unemployment rate will once again start increasing, diffusion indices, manufacturing and all other economic output will begin declining, but not before the bill is in. It cost Americans $2.1 trillion in debt to generate a 14 months sugar high (for which all will promptly receive a much higher tax bill). Luckily, we will never pay this debt off, so perhaps "the joke is on them" after all.
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Last one out... turn off the lights. This place is F'd
Assuming there is power for said lights.
+1 LOL!
TOO FUNNY. Yes, literally, the joke is on them. The PM guys are converting FRNs to PMs, and the preppers are converting FRNs to food/supplies/land. Numerous posters have talked about their six-figure student loan debt (medical school, law school, etc.) that they never intend on repaying. A great percentage of homeowners are upside down, and are happy to see the place default.
Give-or-take the baby boomers with a mortgage (will getting out-from-under your mortgage be a good trade for you losing your expected SS/Medicare/401K?), it's quite possible the "pillage-and-leave" society will make more people happier-than-not.
It doesn't much matter, because this won't be handed over to the next generation. We'll default now, whether we like it or not.
That's the counterpoint to the "China will bury us" argument too. We have China's goods, China has our worthless paper.
Although they're using it to buy our (their) stuff before our paper becomes totally worthless. Who's going to win the race?
The question is so easy to answer. China had to work hard to save their USD reserve over the past three decades.
In one year, the US emitted credits that dwarfed what China had saved.
The lesson is clear: theft (US is thieving the whole world with the US credit emission, especially the poorest) beats hard word.
Never bet against the extortioner. He is the ganglord.
China also has the worlds most advanced manufacturing capacity courtesy the US.
I think in the coming time, it gives them a huge hedge/edge.
That and all the technology transfer in the past 15 years there cannot be devalued or uprooted.
Meanwhile, for a whole new paradigm, see
www.squareandc.net
Go only if you can deal with your current paradigm being busted.
The world can be saved, but with a new vision, not old programs or even new programs.
All this debt ids like fluffy snow on a mountain.
The moment someone calls "He's NAKED" loudly enough, it will all avalanche down.
Watch out below.
Buddy, even if PRC has the manu base for the planet, with their 2 largest trading (sorry, dumping) blocs about to go tits-up, THEY'RE shafted too since their consumer base is insufficiently developed to compensate.
Isn't your link sponsored by SpongeBob FartPants or similar?
-100
While I take it from the end of your comment that you are just another frustrated male (probably white and acne filled to boot) I thought I should educate you on the fact that the world is not as it was even 3 years ago.
This is a no-law works and only ancient history is a predictor of future performance time.
I suggest you try the impossible experiment of Byting yourself in the ass and wake up.
humor rules.
You're right. It's soooooo hard to consume things. I don't know what I would ever do if MY money suddenly exploded in purchasing power, allowing me to buy 5-10 times more per unit of money. I'd just retreat to my grandmother's farm and work as a slave rather than buying things at the market.
Because it takes a lot of work to spend, while making things is easy.
that is the ugliest website i have seen since the 90's
Function over form Ratava, function over form.
You are lost in UI's. Lightweight.
Time we went back to function.
That is the whole thrust of the paradigm change, impossibly hard form most of us caught in the current paradigm to relate to.
Anyways, tile will tell, it always does.
Junk away. :-)
Your webpage really does suck, dude.
Completely unreadable by anyone who isn't on LSD.
Apply Occam's Razor to your own page - simpler is better.
Ya that website sucked. I didn't have my cpu pumping 12 instructions per clock cycle trying to render fonts without jaggies, with noscript and adblock plus blasting away like a parser from hell with the website blowing random fucking php and java codes at my computer like a tug of war to gain control over my personal property. Things are so much better today. Zero hedge is a wonderful site because it's not running a hyper active full of crap bunch of code.
Huh?
That site is pure HTML.
You must have got redirected.
All good though.
Yes. I was being sarcastic.
China's manufacturing is not even remotely the most advanced. They have 7 of the 10 most polluted cities in the world simply because their manufacturing capacity is BACKWARDS.
And your "change the paradiggum" link was a bunch of eastern mythology bullshit. A lot of jibber jabber
Travvie,
Jibber jabber? That' sit? Given the level of vitriol you're usually spewing I'd say something touched that soft little heart of yours. Else you'd really spew nasty stuff.
But, since us easterners believe that all is one, Karma is even more unavoidable than death or taxes, I'll use Travvie's rantlet as a springbopard to tell you all why I posted my link here.
I find this a fascinating community. SOme people I'd gladly spring for a drink just to hear them talk. Expansive ideas, twisted but often brilliant humor, reality glasses... the works.
Now you all clearly like to make a buck, which is why yo are here.
Would you guys have jumped at AMZN back int he day? 40 c a share? I was there and missed it. Aapl, same story.
Remember, aaple was not funded as a fancy company. Yuo all knwo the story, garage start up and all.
SO, here is someone, telling you that he has the answers to the ENTIRE set of ills brought to us by the western world view and design view. Stunning designs for planes trains and automobiles and much much more.
Don't you see this as an opportunity? Or you think, nah, not in my living room. This only happens to other people. I'll just have to scalp my cents on pips and spreads and be manipulated.
C'mon, there are serious people here. I'm serious. Dig in. If it's too heavy or ugly (remember the ugly duckling???) pass it on to that genius friend, ask him/her... any think to what this guy is saying?
Look around? Anything fit you well? The chair you keep squirming in, your loud, dangerous car? That cylinder we thrust int he sky to get places? Food that has little or no nutritional value? Any of it seem remotely like the vision I'm painting?
See that we are at a tipping point? The coming world needs a fresh pair of eyes?
I have them.
Come share if you feel called.
Regards all around.
I have them.
I, ah... Liked especially the part about "Project X" in the automotive section; That one didn't work out too well for them in "Atlas Shrugged," did it?
There will be lots of new paradigms as we undergo societal shift. The fun part is always sorting out the wheat from the chaff.
Some historical perspectcive, for those of you who might be interested: The Collapse of Complex Societies, by Joseph Tainter.
i went to medical school to learn to care for and heal the sick. i took out $200,000 in loans and invested my $100,000 inheritance in ALNY. by the time i graduated, my inheritance had grown to $400,000, and i had every intention of paying back my loans. this is how the system is supposed to work. people with knowledge and capital put money to work, via markets, in companies they believe will grow, providing jobs for americans and profits for investors. i cashed out in 2007 with the intention of paying back my loans and saving for a home. then the market crashed. perfect i thought, i can pay off my loans and reinvest the remaining cash in the market once the bad banks fail and the market clears. RNA based therapeurics are the future of medicine, and i had every intention of putting my money to work in a company developing next generation, RNA based molecular therapeutics and diagnostics. then the FED bailed out the banks, and the bankers paid themselves huge bonuses with underseved, taxpayer money. the market never cleared, and im no sucker. after staying in cash for two years, i have grown so thoroughly discusted with the system, i have invested my $400,000 in physical gold, tucked away in a safe bolted to my concrete basemment floor. i will continue going to work and caring for the sick and frail, but i will not repay one cent of my loans.
i live beyond my means and spend every cent of my salary. when my months loan payments are due, i abstain. i will declare bankruptcy, forcing my lender to take a massive haircut on my principal, and there is nothing they can do about it. good luck with that audit mr. banker, the paper trail doesnt exist.
it didnt have to be this way. i went to medical school because i wanted to give back to the country that has given me so much. i was willing to work for far below market wages (aka medicare reimbursements) because i signed up for this, and this is the system we all work in and contribute to. but now the system is every man for himself. the bankers are robbing the middle class and they are doing it with the help of the federal govt. this is kleptocracy, pure and simple. well guess what; im not going to be their sucker, and if its every man for himself, im going to get mine.
this administration has opened pandora's box. they have created a monster. in what must by the creulest irony in modern history, this administration has attempted to institutionalize compassion (jobs programs, bailouts, obamacare) and in so doing, has utterly destroyed every shred of the personal responsibility from which compassion grows. i will no longer be accepting medicare payment; instead i will set a reimbursement rate for my practice that i feel is fair. medicare is predicated on physicians' acceptance of medicare reimbursement for service rendered. we all know we are underpaid, but we did it nonetheless, because we signed up as willing participants in the system. well i didnt sign up for this kleptocratic bullshit. if the govt wont bail me out, ill take mine.
welcome to fight club
Consider a well deserved childrens' charity to support as well.
no doubt
I suggest you have your attorney educate you on the bankruptcy laws pertaining to student debt.
Wise advice. It is generally not dischargable.
And it appears, as part of the "stimulus" plan, the government is buying up large portions of the outstanding student debt. They also snuck in a provision in the health care "reform" law that outlaws private student loans. In the future ALL student loans will be government originated. It's all about control and servitude to the government that "cares" about us.
+1 ... there is a reason we don't do "debtor's prison" anymore. Bankruptcy (debt discharge) is like a Gift from God ... it permits one to start again. In contrast, under servitude, why would anyone ever get out of bed in the morning (when nothing you earn will be yours)?
The "not-dis-chargeable" aspect of the new student loan program, IMHO, is truly Evil. Horrible public policy. You are literally becoming indentured servants, without discharge option, forever, until the debt is repaid to the government. This is literally the "feudal" system -- the serf society -- where humans are "owned" by the local rulers. That's a de-valuing of your future income FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE (until the debt is repaid, which can NEVER happen with the income potential against some of these six-figure debts).
On the bright side, I'm serious when I suggest you will most likely outlive the US Federal Government. In that case (of course), your student loan debts will then disappear.
IMHO brushfire's complaints against "the system" are entirely legitimate. Wars and rebellions are fought for less. A citizen's duty is to withhold consent from the government when that government usurps authority beyond that which is granted by the citizen.
get a clue. do you really think i dont know the law pertaining to student loans, or who owns my loan? the govt has indeed purchased my loan, and i know all too well the law pertaining to my debt. apparently you completely missed the point. we cannot inflate our way out of out debt burden, and therefore, we will eventually default. my loan has a 30 year term. there is no way the treasury market makes it 30 years. so now...do you really think that when the US govt defaults the institutional framework to effectively audit me and collect on my loan will exist? im gonna go ahead and say that when the US treasury market fails, the US student loan market will fail with it. so its a waiting game. if, in the meantime, the govt demands i reduce my personal consumption (difficult to imagine how this could be accomplished), i will do so and will pay the monthly minimum.
governments exist to create incentives that drive behavior that is in accord with a funcitonal society. i am merely reacting to the incentive system that has been placed in front of me. seriously, get a clue.
there will be enough unemployed grads in default soon enough to create a defacto debtors revolt. it won't even be voluntary, no jobs, no repayment.
+ 1000
We agree. (The government will default, the law is bad, we cannot inflate out.) I even backed you on your decision to breach contract on your student loans.
I'll raise you one more and assert the US Federal Government will dissolve in the next few years, and this will all be moot.
I don't understand the point on which I should, "get a clue".
I think he wants you to get a clue because you believe he is who he says he is.
- who is he, Hephasteus?
Just because the united states government fails, does not necessarily mean you get out of your student loans. The issue of the currency of debt is obviously a strong one and a gigantic question mark moving forward (the markets can remain irrational longer blah blah blah). But, your debt can be sold to whomever comes out on top of the financial apocalypse... individuals, etc. These people can and will hunt you down and collect.
Presently, just like the foreclosure moratoria, there is an unsaid policy not to try and collect on everything (aside from the fact that it would... err. undermine their efforts). Your future master may not have the same sympathies.
My guess is that this is a case of doc hubris. I would not expect a windfall bud. You may be right, some will be on this deal. And if you are, kudos to you sir, you hit a home run. However, I would make sure you had enough currency to keep your gold in your hands... as you never know what the future may hold and who may come knocking on the door to collect. Our future is going to be one filled with massive uncertainty, including the consistent application and/or existence of laws. Do not bet the game will stay the same.
Further, you are one of the classes at risk for "cleansing" in that racking up a massive debt load (subsidized of course) and willfully refusing to repay is morally reprehensible. Our leaders will need scapegoats to fuel the next few years and between being a professional AND defaulting on massive debt backstopped by uncle sugar, you're going to have a target on your back.
Yes, it does. The enforcement of contracts is the role of the state. A private party that "bought" a debt can't force it to be collected unless the state backs him up (the contract cannot be enforced).
It's a numbers game. When the majority of the population is bankrupt (defaulted loans/mortgages), and the centralized government dissolves, the next system is a "fresh start". This is what happened after the "debt jubilees" of old, and after wars. Who owns the house? People were killed, property was seized by a now-toppled government, and the title chain is a bit unclear. However, a decision is made, some parties are screwed, and a clear title is issued by the new ruling authority to a single entity.
You suggest a scenario where "uncle sugar" still exists, and still has ability to enforce its will. I assert that it won't exist, and/or won't have ability to enforce its wishes.
Hmm... missed this response for some reason...
The contract obligation still exists regardless of what occurs in the transition of our government (it is not expressly contingent on the united states government remaining in its present shape and form; successors should obtain the right to enforce the rights of the precessor). In order for the debt to be unenforceable, there has to be the initiation of a new government and that government has to strike all outstanding contracts/refuse to enforce them. Further, I think most all rudimentary constitutional rights would have to be tossed out along with it (property rights, among others).
I cannot fathom that there will be a complete and total break from our former concepts of government and a refusal to enforce any and all contracts entered prior to its formation. Essentially, there could be no courts of equity... there could be no trier of fact and arbiter of justice... (aside from the law prohibiting enforcement)... there could be no property rights for anyone.
The new government is going to pick up the pieces and share a significant portion of its ideals with our present government. I contend that a necessary portion of these ideals will be the continuance and/or ability to enforce, in large part, pre-existing contractual obligations and property rights. Without this continuity, I think capital flight will be the least of our worries.
It just seems like you're envisioning not only the victor of our struggle, but also what the victor plans to initiate and implement or, alternatively, that chaos will ensue and no ability to enforce contracts will exist (through proper legal channels anyway). These seem to me to be incredibly limited and narrow circumstances. In whatever system of government ensues, the ability to enforce private agreements and property rights will have to be present...
EDIT: MISSED THE FUCKING YEAR!
Good luck. You're going to need it. I assume you have a Plan-B in case the treasury market/credit system does not collapse in the next ten years. Otherwise it looks as though you've bet your entire future earnings potential against the history of America surviving whatever's been thrown at it.
We don't do debtor's prisons in this country, but when they force you to live in the 'cash-only' strata of society it's going to crimp your style. You can always practice medicine out of the trunk of your used car. The homeless won't mind the lack of modern facilities.
You can always practice medicine out of the trunk of your used car.
Bring back the black bags of medicine.
http://blog.jayparkinsonmd.com/post/28073454/say-hello-to-hello-health-l...
Awesome. That's more of what we need. Health insurance and the government have driven the cost of medicine into the stratosphere. Let the physician and the patient negotiate costs and they'll come down dramatically.
(But, also, they're functioning within the credit/economic system, so this type paradigm is not much use to our "screw-you-for-lending-me-$200K-to-get-my-MD" guy/gal. When the government starts garnisheeing 25% of his wages for the rest of his life, he/she won't want to be earning any taxable income.)
The only problem with your argument is that you still have 400K stashed away (what did you say your address was?).
Assume the gubmint gets a judgment against you. They would do a writ of inquisition which requires you to inventory all of your assets. Under penalty of perjury or contempt of court.
You file bankruptcy. At the end of your petition, you put you signature swearing that you have listed all of your assets.
I agree with you that people get debt repayment and morality all knotted together, but be careful. The gubmint will screw you if it catches you in a lie.
i am a hate filled indentured servant, hence my name. this servitude has inflamed my rage. we can not "strategically default," there is no way out. There are many like me, our rage grows with each day. These shackles of servitude will result in violence.
+100
Dude, you should be writing hate haiku for the Revolution.
dude, that is the highest compliment i have ever gotten.
one hate haiku a day keeps the fed away. haiku propaganda is the future.
mikla,
"Bankruptcy (debt discharge) is like a Gift from God ... it permits one to start again. "
The laws concerning Bankruptcy have changed drastically...........
For individuals, there ARE no MORE gifts..........you are taken to court, and your income/s are looked at, and YOU have to repay, according to that, your indebtedness over a period of time.
Now, if your a business....................you can (unless something changed),can do it over and over, as long as you get a NEW company name, and have a partner willing to sign up.
So, we're screwed YET again.
And, no, I have never done it, nor have I ever missed , or been late on any payment on any debt I may have incurred,ever.
From the old school.......like many here.
Would the masters have it any other way?
Agreed, the bankruptcy laws have changed. They no longer enable debt discharge as easily as before. And, as was mentioned in the thread, in the stimulus law student loans are "excepted" as non-dis-chargeable (that's similarly bad). Both decisions are (very) bad public policy (although I concede the old bankruptcy laws were a bit too permissible).
However, IMHO, it doesn't matter. Mass defaults will topple the government. There is no scenario by which these individuals will be able to repay, so they won't.
Yes, it will be messy during the transition.
I'm "old school" too ... never missed a payment, no debt, will never have debt again. However, it is morally wrong for society to condone indentured servitude. That's feudal, that's slavery, that dehumanizes the individual. And, it is unstable, which is why it only works for a short (and volatile) period of time (and we are entering that transition).
You can't pull off feudalism today, especially in the US. Unlike the middle ages, firearms are the "great equalizers", and you can't send a dozen "knights" in battle armor to town in order to cow the peasants into submission.
This is not an issue of feudalism. No body is going to be enslaved. Its just that the folks who walk away will not be able get the productive folks to sell them stuff - so hopefilly they have plans to make the stuff they need themselves.. Economics is the issue - very simply. Why would skilled, hardworking people continue to provide the fruits of their labor to people who do not plan to pay them in cash or kind? Or participate in a system that taxes away all their earnings. They wont.
It has happened repeatedly to many countries - its called "brain drain". In the past few decades the US was the beneficiary. Hope it does'nt go into reverse.
The "brain drain" phenomenon is already here. No only are top grads/brains leaving voluntarily, they are actually encouraged to do so by many "american" employers... see IBM's hiring/organizational planning - they source from top US schools and send the new hires abroad to embark on their new careers... most will never earn a paycheck denominated in $USD, and IBM minimzes their global tax burden in the process.
The US brain drain is not only in full effect... it is being institutionalized.
The stats/facts will start surfacing in 3-4 years, well after the damage is done...
In this context (feudalism), we are talking about *my* claim to *your* future labor. How much will you work, knowing that *I* benefit from your work, for the rest of *your* life? That's feudalism. It is unstable. In the given example, a "Liberal Arts" major with a minor in "Women's Studies" will not repay $220K in student loans over his lifetime career working retail, and thus will never be free of the feudalistic claim (by government in this case) on that person's *entire* *life*.
Merchants don't care if people default, they just want the money for the current transaction. People will stop paying their mortgages and student loans, and use their available cash to buy food and iPads. Merchants will happily perform those transactions. [edited]
Exactly -- agreed. That's why ultimately all these debts will be discharged (they won't be repaid, and upon the person's death, they will be discharged). However, I assert it won't get that far: The debt will be discharged upon societal revolt. There's no legal precedence for much of it, but it will happen anyway. And, society will be better for it.
Ditto California -- there is no legal precedent for the state to go bankrupt, but it will. There is no legal precedent for the state to rewrite its Constitution, but it will. There is no legal precedent for California to go into Federal receivership, or to be "booted out" of the union, but one or both of those will happen.
The "transition" period we are entering is feudalism, where an authority claims your future labor. It is unstable, and that system will fail (people will not abide).
Mikla,
We agree on almost all points here..........
There is a BIG deal in the works to legally remove firearms from this scenario...........Hillary is working on it,(U.N. SAT) and Big O is sitting quietly by, until the time comes.
IF he get's time...
TIME is against him now, he is now being eaten by his own.........
The only thing I see that saves his bacon is a declaration of Martial Law..............over what, I do not know,but we have a LOT of items on the plate for him to choose from.
You don't always need government guns on your side to acheive this. If you debts aren't so great that a company will be willing to take you to court over them, then you can simply stop paying them. This works well on credit cards (if you have large student debts, get as high a credit line as you can and pay off your loans with those (no more than 10K per bank). One good way is to go around to the TBTF banks and open accounts. They often off to give you credit cards with high limits that link to your bank account as "overdraft protection". This is poetic justice.
I dumped about $70K of debt this way, and did so soon after those fucks got their bailout. If they aren't gong to pay for their debts, I'm sure as hell not going to pay them. I had some debts that I owed to smal companies for merchandise, which I did pay off, as they did NOT get a damned bailout.
I have also been thinking about another method of getting rid of debt for pennies on the dollar. If you open a corporation (can be done for $400 online), and under the guise of that corporation, seek out all of your debt, you should be able to buy it if it is at a significant discount if you are in default. You may be able to get it for as little at 5 or 10 cents on the dollar. Afterwards, just pay the company a dollar to discharge the debt, and write down the loss. You might be able to use that loss to defray other income, but I would have to talk to a tax attorney about that.
Additional benefits are that your company can report the debt as paid in full, and raise your credit score. Wash, rinse, repeat if you care to.
I never took on student loans because didn't want the long term debt over my head - I read a lot books, got the necessary certifications, and became a technical expert in a field that pays a comfortable living. People I work with ask me, "where did you get your degree?" I just smile and reply, I read a lot of books...
When I had to declare bankruptcy about 20 years ago, it was due to the fact that a sudden event in my life found me unable to pay my debts. I declared everything, kept making payments on my car, paid that off.
From that point on, I made the decision to avoid taking on debt unless it was for a major purchases where I had a sizeable down payment (i.e. car, house) or major emergencies. Over the next 10 years, I eventually rebuilt a nearly perfect credit score. I now have a (paid off) car, a house with a mortgage that is less than comparable rent on the same space (which is still right side up in this housing crisis) and some savings put aside in case things go to hell in a handbasket. In other words, I'm being a responsible citizen.
By the time things went crazy in the financial markets, I had pulled out of stocks (with minimal losses), redoubled my efforts at building up reserves and started making minimum payments on my house. If things go belly up and they write down or write off my loan, I'll take the bonus. That's staying within the bounds of the contract that I took out with the bank, and is the moral thing to do.
Reading your ramblings above makes me sick to my stomach. You're an anarchist at best, and a sociopath at worst.
Thanks for being a part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Just because the united states government fails, does not necessarily mean you get out of your student loans. web dizajn
And, no, I have never done it, nor have I ever missed , or been late on any payment on any debt I may have incurred,ever.
From the old school.......like many here.
Neither have I, and this is where the dilemma arises. At what point, or how much pain does one need to endure before they have had enough? Despite the fact that one has moral integrity in a relationship, there comes a point where the contract becomes null and void.
Let's say you're have made a commitment of marriage to another and unbeknown-st to you your spouse begins to subtly change in an abusive way. It begins slowly, almost imperceptibly with an unkind word, criticism or denial of your freedom, and you allow it through the belief that surely this one to whom you have committed has your best intentions in mind. After all, you have agreed to this marital covenant and you have their best intentions in mind. As your relationship progresses he or she changes. Your spouse begins to escalate their offensive behavior such as throwing an object when angry, and you brush it off. Another time when things are tense he/she slaps you in the face. Although this is a red flag, and is cause for concern, you have signed a covenant, and your integrity is everything to you, so you stay. Aren't some of us taught to sacrifice our self for the other, to lay down one's life for the other? Because of economic concerns you believe you're not in an easy position to leave. Inwardly, anger and rage begin to fester, followed by a sense of hopelessness and depression to the point of frozen inaction, like an animal terrorized. You are now walking on egg shells, so as not to provoke your spouse. You stop existing, only the other exists.
We have been conditioned slowly and subtly to accept the unacceptable.
At what point do we reach where the pain kicks in, where we have had enough? At what point to do we say I am no longer going to participate in this relationship? At what point to we save our self and sacrifice the commitment?
Moral integrity vs abuse. How much abuse will one take before abandoning one's own moral integrity?
Refusal to be abused is actually a higher moral integrity to oneself. It is the integrity one must have with one's agreement with self first.
G-R-U-N-T,
While I see your point, it (to me) comes down to Character.
Once you lose that, regardless of the situation,what's left?.
And, I am talking about IF one is able to fulfill their agreed to obligations............not a total fiscal/health disaster.
Like these folks buying homes,and are able to afford the homes,but they because of a situation beyond their control find they are WAY upside down if they had to sell/wanted to.
Tough noogies, we all have made bad investments, and you dance with the one what brung ya'.Because their treated special, doesn't give US the moral right to BE like them.
Americans have always paid their way, and kept their agreements, AS long as life permitted.........
In the 50's,(and until the early 60's) NO ONE,all races refused Welfare, unless they were absolutely desitute, and NO WAY out.
Today, people are all about ME...and Fk everyone else...........
That's not how we got to be THE CITY ON A HILL.
Maybe because that's the way I was taught and lived my life,fortunate enough through hard work, to stay debt free.......by making sure I was not the tail, but the head I feel differently.
But generationally mores / norms, change............and from where we're ALL sitting, at this stage, NOT FOR THE BETTER.
This country is almost totally unrecognizable to the one I grew up in, and even as late as the 80's................
it is not dis chargeable except in cases of EXTREME hardship; i.e. you get hit by a bus and are brain dead. get hit by a by a bus and are a paraplegic who in the realm of possibility, might be able to do any type of work, but has managed to get disability will still have garnishments.
defer to death or wait for hyperinflation.
Wonder why med school doesn't teach ethics. Paying your debts is part of ethical behaviour as is your hippocratic oath. My sense is that we're training a league of doctors that can't be trusted, watch your kidneys.
bro, pass whatever you are smoking, it musty be some good shit! Honor this!
+1 Ethics? Really? Denying support to a thuggish, imperial power is not ethical? I think you need to re-think a few things. The changes of the last 20-30 years - wherein the treason and betrayal of the last 100 years have become to obvious to ignore - have to be factored into any ethical equation.
I understand the sentiment, but it is wrong. Nobody is forced to get a loan. Both parties have the opportunity to review the terms and either accept or decline. To say you're going to do something, and then not do it, is unethical. The ends may make the means seem socially acceptable for the time being, but it is still unethical in the grand sense.
If someone wants to deny support to the system, he or she should not get the loan in the first place. Start a cash business and never pay taxes. Further, use the cash earned in the political world in order to bring about the ends sought for the system.
Conrad, not only is it unethical,it is immoral.
they teach ethics in medical school, and doszap and conrad have no idea what they are talking about. im gonna go ahead a say, with a high degree of confidence, that neither of you would know ethics if it hit you in the face. normative ethics would indeed dictate that what i am doing is immoral. no one forced me to take out my loans, and as such, i am a willing participant in the system. therefore, according to normative philosophy, refusing to repay what is owed is wrong. the problem that you idiots fail to recognize is that normative ethics went out the window a long time ago. we now live in a consequentialist society.
consequentialism is a moral philosophy based on the principle of action and reaction. when the govt began endorsing moral hazard, the message, to those with the brains to hear it, was clear. normative philosophy is dead and consequentialism is here to stay. now, under a consequentialist system, what i am doing is the definition of ethical. consequentialism dictates that no particular action is right or wrong a priori, but rather, that all action must be viewed in the context of its circumstances. while i grant that consequentialism has a hard time separating good and bad consequences (relativism at it finest), if you accept that normatively, stealing from the middle class and giving to the rich is wrong, then under our new eithical code, what i am doing is the definition of ethical.
there is no right and wrong, only consequences. when conrad and doszap decided to drop out of middle school, they werent wrong for doing so. they merely have to live with the consequences. so, take it from someone who actually knows a thing or two about ethics. refusing to repay student loans in a society that endorses such behavior is ethical. now, if thats not enough for you, try this on. i spend my days caring for the sick. i dont make a ton of money, but the work is gratifying. i could have done anything, and may have been happier had i been a banker. but here i am. now, normatively, that alone should make me ethical, in your myopic and infantile umwelt.
I'm an ethicist and can offer you a professional opinion: not only are you an asshat, you're an asshat who is ignorant about ethics.
No, YOU are an asshat who is ignorant of ethics.
There is NO ETHICAL IMPLICATION.
This is a matter of CONTRACT LAW. The rights of each party in breach are usually SPECIFIED in the contract!
YOU can breach it at ANY TIME and there is NO moral obligation WHATSOEVER to repay, there is SOLELY a contractual obligation.
In fact, the bank who lent it to you really actually NEVER HAD THE MONEY in the first place!
Thank you. It is called "efficient breach," and it has nothing to do with ethics.
trav,
agreed, but you did AGREE to the contract, and you did mentally make that decision.You sign an agreement, your name is on it,,,,,,,,when you signed it, your NAME,and character were put on that line.
No one broke your arm to sign it.
So while we may be talking Contract Law, you just defamed your character, IF the Contract was in fact legal.
To me, it's unethical, as well as immoral..........you in fact lied.
Just IMHO.......
an 'ethicist'? really? hahahahhaha.
Out of work, obviously.
I think you and Tim Geitner would get along just fine. He didn't pay his taxes because he rationalized he'd never get caught and you aren't going to pay your obligations because you've found a few "thoughts" to string together that appear to rationalize away your actions. Therefore you are precisely the type of person who created the financial and political mess we're in now.
I'm gonna go ahead and say, with a high degree of confidence, that you're a "progressive" in your thinking. You're mistaking a quick wit and verbal skill for intelligence and judgment. You're mistaking arrogance for character.
As I said above, good luck with your plan. Those of us who've lived a few years understand precisely what's in store for you, even though you're totally blinded to what's coming. When this shit hits the fan in your life, don't complain about the consequences of your consequentialisticly ethical decisions.
Oh, and in bankruptcy court, I would strongly recommend you try to sway the judge with your line of thinking about why you are not ethically nor morally obligated to pay your debt. It'll give him or her endless jokes to entertain his colleagues with.
last time i checked, being irresponsible was not illegal. if the law has changed, i think ill invest that gold in a company that builds prisons. im not living under any illusions here my friend. things may not work out as planned, but my ass is covered legally, trust me.
people like you telling me im an idiot or that i have no clue what im talking about are flat out wrong. i didnt arrive at my current state of being by being a fool. try actually thinking for yourself for a change. groupthink is what got us into this mess in the first place.
i would like to add that i think its interesting how much anger this topic elicits. people telling me that my worldview is nothing more than a few "thoughts" strung together are laughable. the beauty of being educated is knowing whats bullshit and whats not. while i concede that it is impossible to know how things will turn out for me, im pretty comfortable with the intellectual foundation on which my opinions are based. no one can portend the future, but i know a spade when i see one. so go ahead and tell me im an idiot and feel free to leave it at that. im sure you dont have anything meaningful to add to the discussion, so its best if you keep it brief.
It appears you believe you get a "bankruptcy judge" because you've done something "illegal".
actually what brushfire is doing is a very effective manner of civil disobedience. he is not breaking the law, he is breaching a contract. one of the reasons we fought a revolution against the brits was to prevent going bankrupt leading to imprisonment. as for hiding assets, fine, but if you want the gov to be able to find his gold, they can find all our gold.
as for myself, i plan to pay off my federal student loans; they are at a very low rate, subsidized by taxpayers and i have not been misled about them in anyway. as for my private student loans, FUCK THEM. my lender paid fines for colluding with my law school to funnel disadvantageous loans to students via kickbacks. they are supposedly a nonprofit organization whose CEO is the dean of another law school. it is a fucking racket. i hope the CEO, board of directors and all those that took part in making PRIVATE LOANS non-dischargeable get the most painful form of luekemia possible.
A judge would never entertain a single concern or argument over ethics or morality in a bankruptcy court.
It's fuckin absurd a priori. This is a contractual and black letter legal matter.
Fuck, man, Don Trump has BKd what...TWICE already? Bigtime stars and multimillionaires BK all the fucking time. The difference is that they have disabused themselves of the notion that this is anything other than a LEGAL and BUSINESS and CONTRACTUAL matter.
Only serfs are indoctrinated with the peasant mentality that debt is some kind of moral obligation.
It's amusing to me that your avatar precisely defines the depth of your reading comprehension and abstract reasoning skills.
Chamillionaire's strategic default:
http://www.tmz.com/2010/06/03/chamillionaire-rapper-foreclosure-houston-...
Great thread guys.
A few thoughts...
Ethics aside, you'll have to be very good at hiding assets to avoid liens, garnishment, etc if you choose to defualt on a loan. I don't know how long it will take to write off a 30 year loan but I'd bet you'll be hiding for at least 7 years (isn't that the statute of limitations on a breach of contract?). Doesn't sound like fun, but I don't see myself buying real estate any time soon.
brushfire do you really believe the BS you spew. You my friend are a moral and ethical half-wit
Please do not confuse education with common sense. While some like yourself think they are the same, life experience will prove to you that they are vastly different. Why are there so many PhD's from Ivy League schools that lose their ass in the markets? Not to be glib, but Gordon Gecko had it right, give me someone who's poor, smart, and hungry and they'll run circles around some MBA schmuck.
Sorry...I erred.
THIS is the stupidest post ever.
There is NOTHING WHATSOEVER morally or ethically implicated in ACTING under the terms of a CONTRACT, which SPECIFY both parties' rights under said CONTRACT.
Debt is NOT a moral obligation, it is a fucking business transaction. If at ANY time, the bank has the RIGHT to call the loan in full and it makes pecuniary sense for them to do so, they will do it WITHOUT remorse. Even if it causes you to lose everything you have, they will do it if it maximizes THEIR profitability. Likewise, corporations and individuals (the rich) default and otherwise repudiate ALL THE TIME when it maximizes their outcome.
You idiots bleating about morality and ethics in debt contract law have the mentality of PEASANTS.
brushfire do you really believe the BS you spew. You my friend are a moral and ethical half-wit
Trav,
You're absolutely right about consumer and educational loans being a contract, and you're absolutely right that you have the "right" to default on those loans, if you so choose.
So let's assume we follow the nihilistic, scorched earth "strategy" several of you have proposed on here in regards to personal finance, and we have the expected sovereign debt crisis (my personal guess is the US defaults on its external debt and the currency, whatever it is called in the end, is devalued by approximately 60% by the time it's all over.)
Putting aside that you might just get away with not paying your government loans, other firms, such as credit bureaus, will probably survive "the apocalypse." If this happens, because of the nature of what had happened in the preceding years, businesses will be taking a harder look at everyone's credit history, and yours will stick out like a sore thumb. Because you'll have a long history of not meeting your committments - and that's what a contract is to most people, a commitment that you're going to do something and then following through on it - you'll have a much harder time getting a nice place to live, a decent job, a nice car, inexpensive insurance or even something better than prepaid cell phone service. To put it simply, because you screwed everyone else over, you'll have ultimately screwed yourself.
So, with the above in mind, I implore those of you who have this mindset to think it through, for your own sake: you're making some very risky bets based on short-term assumptions that probably won't all play out in the long run. If things don't work out completely in your favor, you could be in for some very negative, life-changing consequences. It's not all black and white, there are shades of grey and you need to think long-term.
True. You should fullfill your promises.
But, if you were falsely induced into an obligation, and latter discover that fact, what recourse is there? History is full of examples where people, upon discovering the truth, changed course. History is also full of people who should have changed course, but didn't and caused untold pain and suffering.
The whole system is now one huge lie, designed to make people biddable slaves. That is a false inducement if ever there was one. The thing is you can't sue over it, because the damn courts are part of the scam too!
Don't be a tool.
AMEN
Where is there a problem? If one feels morally obligated to pay down a debt, then do it. If one feels that the terms of a contract are onerous and decide not to pay, then don't pay. The social and financial implications in both instances will balance each other out. What one person does or doesn't do is irrelevant to another persons situation. I looked my mortgage over very thoroughly and could not find the "morality clause" anywhere.
No one is forced to get a loan. The force comes afterwards, when the government decides its time to change the rules. Suddenly, options that were open before are no longer open, and you are left dealing with a zombie bank that doesn't have to look out for its own self interest, and instead can spend all of its resources looking for delicious brains. They don't have to negotiate any more, because they know they can just go to uncle sugar for another bailout.
Yes, one can refrain from taking on any new loans, or better yet, one can take on as many new loans as possible and default, helping to crash the system faster, before things get even worse. Think of it as killing zombies. It's not unethical to cut off a zombie's head. They aren't human anymore. They are no longer productive members of society. Rather, they are mindless outlaws who seek nothing but a full belly, even if it means the destruction of the entire world.
Ending them is both ethical AND moral.
+1000
Stupidest post ever.
There is no moral obligation to repay a loan to a bank.
The bank never had the freakin money to lend in the first place.
You cut to the heart of the matter, trav7777!
Morality & ethics will reward you handsomely while you stand in a bread line !
/sarcasm off
NOT!
Here's an even bigger kick in the ass. I graduated a 4 year University. Got a job making about $42k, working 55 hours a week, 6 days a week for 6 years. My take-home pay was roughly $2400 a month. $800 tax return.
My assistant, never went to school, has 3 kids and works a 20 hour work week. Her monthly take-home is $1200 a month. Now, add on $600 a month in food stamps. She's at $1800. And, don't forget the $8500 tax return she got divided by 12......an additional $700 a month. She is now at $2500 a month take-home. We will leave out the HUD housing and free Medicare.
Fuck this place! I "lost" my shitty job, now I am getting mine, $2100 a month in unenjoyment. I sent my $50k in Credit card debt packing via bankruptcy. Because of my distrust for the government and corporate America, I stockpiled alcohol. I also found a drug-addict who sells food stamps and my groceries are half-off right off the bat! Oh, because of my bad credit status the last couple years......nothing was in my name and BK was effortless!
You are right when you say they opened Pandora's Box. Since I wasn't getting a bailout....I created mine! Now debt free besides the small mortgage, and living the life! I would check out the student loan laws though......they don't wash away in BK.
god bless you sir! if it wasn't for student loans i'd be doing the same. now get yourself some guns and ammo!
Buy the gun(s) from a private individual and pay cash for the ammo.
Here's an even bigger kick in the ass. I graduated a 4 year University. Got a job making about $42k, working 55 hours a week, 6 days a week for 6 years. My take-home pay was roughly $2400 a month. $800 tax return.
My assistant, never went to school, has 3 kids and works a 20 hour work week. Her monthly take-home is $1200 a month. Now, add on $600 a month in food stamps. She's at $1800. And, don't forget the $8500 tax return she got divided by 12......an additional $700 a month. She is now at $2500 a month take-home. We will leave out the HUD housing and free Medicare.
Fuck this place! I "lost" my shitty job, now I am getting mine, $2100 a month in unenjoyment. I sent my $50k in Credit card debt packing via bankruptcy. Because of my distrust for the government and corporate America, I stockpiled alcohol. I also found a drug-addict who sells food stamps and my groceries are half-off right off the bat! Oh, because of my bad credit status the last couple years......nothing was in my name and BK was effortless!
You are right when you say they opened Pandora's Box. Since I wasn't getting a bailout....I created mine! Now debt free besides the small mortgage, and living the life! I would check out the student loan laws though......they don't wash away in BK.
well, i don't like the way things are either but i DID pay back my student loans, and all other debt obligations i have accrued throughout the years.
once the OK is given to those like you who don't repay because you've felt cheated is the beginning of the end.
well, i feel cheated by you and your unwillingness to repay what you agreed to repay when you took the loan in the first place. that loan has allowed you the ability to stash such a treasure in your safe. how do i get even with someone who is in effect stiffing me the way you say the banks are doing you?
where did you say that basement of yours is???
'beginning of the end' ... I'd say we're well past that point. A word of advice. Don't waste time, effort or emotion worrying about getting even. Take some pride in the fact that you have done what was right, for you at least. Then, put that energy into getting ready for whatever the future holds.
ok.
btw, did he ever say where his basement is? just wonderin...
i know, i know. i may as well beat you to it.
it's underneath the main floor, right?
LOL! He never gave up an address. Sure would be nice to know, though.
What was RIGHT?
You people have the mentality of PEASANTS.
Do you or do you not know that the RICH reneg on contracts ALL THE TIME.
Businesses do it also!
There are entire COURSES in contracts law in law school where you go over breach after breach after breach.
DEBT between a corporation and an individual is a CONTRACTS MATTER, not a moral obligation.
You have a moral obligation to repay your FRIEND money, but he would not lend what he did not have and then expect interest off of it.
If some person maximizes their financial outcome by breaching their promissory note, then they should DO SO. I would say that to EVERYONE.
What is happening here for real is that all of those saying "oh you're unethical" are LYING.
You are merely JEALOUS that you did not think of this and you were a sucker and did NOT maximize YOUR financial outcome by repudiating and breaching YOUR debt contracts. That's your problem. Don't take it out on him because, unlike you, he does NOT have the mentality of a peasant serf.
"you people?" I'd rather be a low life peasant than a scheming noble. Sure they get ahead, but sometimes they lose one.
ethics and morality apply to everything, at least to humans
Huh? You think any of our modern 'nobles' are posting here? We're all modern day peasants. This notion that a debt to a bank (owned by the nobility) is a 'moral obligation' is nonsense perpetuated to keep us peasants in line. Why do you agree to unending sevitude because some banker moved a few electrons around?
Look, repayment of a debt is a personal decision. There are consequences to not paying. There are consequesnces to paying. Weigh those and do what is best for you and yours. Don't expect all of us to fall on our swords with you. And I won't be joining you on the modern galley bench of debt slavery either!
Would you now? Well, enjoy your grinding poverty, then. Once you know true starvation, you will think the other way, but then it will be too late.
You ARE the problem.
Well,
You have a problem you have not thought about.At least you did not mention it.
IF ObamaScam goes into effect (not reversed ),you will be paid a salary, if your a GP, or a Neuro Surgeon, your pay will be the same.
The only way to scam that, is have patients pay in cash(if cash is not stopped), and you get to try and escape the Revenooooors.
Not a good move.They monitor a persons lifestyle, and match it to their income............if they decide you live above the pay grade.
Your ass is grass.........
Also, a Bill to monitor every transaction we make is / has been passed..........(elecronic trans).
If there's no cash, then there's only barter.Two pigs, and a goat, for an operation..IF your allowed to perform it?.
You won't be..........
These new systems, either must GO, or we're as good as dead.
I am starting to feel like one of the Zombies from the Night of the Living Dead...........
You are so right, DosZap. One becomes and excluded provider after default on a government student loan. Good luck on finding enough fee-for-service patients because you'll no longer have hospital privileges, no medicare/medicaid income, and the insurance companies will send you a network termination letter - but I'm sure Brushfire has thought all of this through.
You're stupid.
You can tell by your lack of proper capitalization.
http://www.achicagobankruptcyattorney.com/bankruptcy-and-employment/can-...
It's illegal to discriminate based on prior bankruptcy filings.
how can you criticize bankers and the government when not intending in repaying your taxpayer subsidized loan. you are as guilty of stealing from society as are the bankers you're trying to discredit. get lost!
i did intend to repay to my taxpayer subsidized load. civil disobediance has a fairly long and noble history. it may be too early for you to see, but unless the govt changes course, full blown civil disobediance is what we will get. a self-sustaining system cannot endorse moral hazard. im a believer in the american ideal. this is not it.
to be clear, for me, this is not about money.
Ok, at least you may have an honorable motive. However, I don't see how you can justify stealing from all the other tax payers who are equally being robbed by the Fed and Treasury. Have you ever considered other (democratic) means besides stealing?
now we are getting somwhere. i have indeed. however, voting does not seem to be cutting it these days, not to mention that if we rely on elections to purge the system, there will be nothing left to save. did you read TD's article, or just the comments? the money printing is accelerating.
the banks own the legistative branch and the FED. that's a pretty formidable duo. the system's weakness is precisely the element keeping it alive: its intellectual dishonesty. the system relies on a failed doctrine to perpetuate itself, and therefore, the doctrine must be exposed as fradulent. the best way to expose their doctrine as self-serving and dishonest is to carry it forward to its natural conclusion. this is what i am doing.
people blathering about morality and ethics are missing the point. thats a discussion we have when we are trying to design a better system and identify where we went wrong. TPTB dont play by the "morality and ethics" crowd's rules, so if you want to have that discussion, youre essentially bringing a knife to a gunfight.
Brushfire,
You will end up paying one way or the other. You see, that's how life works in the long run. So go ahead and play the role of a dead beat, you dead beat, because you will pay in time.
better to be a deadbeat with honor then a serf without it.
There is no honor in being either. If you're going to stiff someone on a contract, you should be put into bankruptcy with all assests seized and auctioned off, and be forced to pay the balance over time. Man, woman, child, corporation, doesn't matter. Live up to your word, or DONT ENTER A FUCKING CONTRACT!
if you are speaking about a neighbor, sure. small biz, sure. dealing with a megacorp that would give your family cancer with cadmium in paint made by chinese slaves, no. default is a business decision. again, if you are speaking to the federal loans, i understand. if you are speaking to private loans, FUCK THAT.
Just like Goldman, JPM and AIG, right?
Wake up, smell the coffee, Conrad.
The rules you appear to cherish so much are a one-way street. Have fun on it. I'll go another way, cause I know where it leads.
Do you even try to think before your blowhole goes wide open in bullshit spewing mode? I said everyone should be subject to the same set of rules. That includes the criminals at all the places you listed. Without a citizenry decent enough to HONOR THEIR WORD, and a government that will enforce the rule of law, we are doomed. Not 200 years ago people understood this. What the fuck happened? Fuck all of the relativistic nonesense in this thread, and in this country.
Do you?
Guess not. You're still off in la-la-land dreaming.
Those days, 200 years ago, are you referring to the days when revolutionary war veterans got screwed out of their pensions for cents on the dollar and then the speculators got paid in full? Ah, yes! Those were the days!
I'm afraid the world you pine for never really existed (except in some one's imagination).
It would be nice, but that's not what we have. 'Rule of Law' has been deteriorating since at least the Civil War. Constant pillaging and extortion of a population doesn't really promote decency.
Conrad ... Conrad ... time to wake up ...
If people honored their word we wouldn't need contracts.
Contracts provide consequences.
So you have a choice, honor or consequences.
Why so hostile at those who choose what you do not? Perhaps because they are ending up better off?
You know nothing of contracts. Contracts are renegotiated ALL THE TIME. These banks have become zombies, nad no longer look out for their own self interest (which would allow them to be flexible on repayment). Now, they just want ALL the money, NOW. They don't care if you don't have a job, or if your mother is sick, or if your house burned down. They are too big to fail, like the nobles of old, and they will take what they want by force (and get a nice juicy bonus by doing so), or the "king" will make them whole (also netting them a nice bonus).
This country no longer recognizes contract law. They have changed the rules so many times that it is impossible for a non-professional to keep track.
But every once and awhile a TBTF gets TBTLL (Too Big to Let Live) and gets taken down. There would be a certain amount of satisfaction derived from seeing Goldman and JPM getting the 'Templar Treatment'. Won't happen, but dreaming is free, isn't it.
well said, CM
Indeed!
You must be a banker. Doesn't it piss you off that people can just decide not to pay and there's really nothing you can do about it? Dead beat? Is that the best you've got?
Yet another reason not to trust Medical Doctors.
Yet another reason not to trust internet "Medical Doctors."
Yet another reason not to trust internet "Student Loan Stories."
I have a 20k student loan at Prima Ballerina School. I broke my toes off trying to stand on them because I'm 6' 6" and couldn't finish school.
There's truth and lies in that statement. Waste your time picking it apart.
I would sooner believe this guy is the CFO of some stupid medical company that spent 20 years and billions of dollars trying to make some "miracle cure" than believe he is a doctor wth a student loan. I've never met a doctor who wouldn't take a 10 minute call from a boiler room investment con artist and write them a check for 50 k on the spot. Because what does it matter? They can simply ask a patient their name and shake hands and bill the fuck out of medicare for a "consultation" to make it back up. They often have a whole hospital of people they can "heal" (as long as healing your bank account is all that matters).
brushfire thats fuking hypocrisy. Your just as bad as the banksters
Your debt will be bore by your fellow citizens in the form of higher taxes.
That's bullshit.
So if you're in a roomfull of people and ONE misbehaves and the powers punish EVERYONE in the room for the infraction of ONE, that is the fault of the ONE?
Like how occupying Roman/Nazi/US forces burnt down entire villages or razed Fallujah over acts by a tiny few individuals? Punish EVERYONE huh?
You have the mentality of a serf.
If a bank enters into a contract with someone who defaults, that is the BANK's problem, not mine and not yours.
jethro,
thank you for cutting to the heart of the matter:
that is exactly the problem. we should not have bailed out the banks, because this is where that road leads. agree or disagree with me, i dont really care. im just telling you this is the way it is. my situation is a fact of life, as is the reality that the banks are robbing us each and every day. not figuratively, literallly. our society is based on the rule of law, and therefore, the rules must be the same for everyone. if the rules only apply to some of the people, some of the time, i dont think its up to you, or anyone else, to make a moral/ethical judgement about how an individual chooses to interact with the "the rules."
He's not a hypocrite.
You're a sucker.
By the tone of the discussion, I sense you both know that.
this response was created by a bank or gse near you.
Even better, take your skills out of the market and wash dishes for a living. Do that for a year and it will give you the perspective to make better informed decisions.
A perfect example of a greedy individual who is grasping at straws to find a reason to not pay back his debt obligations. I feel sorry for anyone who entrusts you with their medical care.
I know, right? How DARE someone act in their own rational self interest in a world gone mad with socialism? He should submit and be a slave to the state for the rest of his life. After all, HE'S the one who took out the loan! Just because the government dramatically changed the rules in the meantime, doesn't mean a thing! He should have known that he would have been enslaved, along with everyone else! He shold take some damn personal responsibility and submit himself to become a government slave!
So you went to medical school to heal and care for the sick? So tell me, are you a primary care physician or did that not pay enough for you? How many hours do you spend a week at a free clinic? Or was there more to your desire to be a doctor than to just heal and care for the sick?
those are all irrelevant questions. try agian.
I support your decision. Just be aware that declaring bankrupcy may not free you from your debt and your creditors may attempt to garnish your wages.
Otherwise, I agree with what you said and I'm surprised you got junked.
I think it's about time to have a thread on the Squid unloading half their position in BP...BEFORE the explosion.
http://moneycentral.msn.com/ownership?Holding=Institutional+Ownership&Sy...
Just for ole times sake ;-)
kill the Squid!
kill the Squid!
Indeed, yes indeed.
If they knew something, then they would not have kept over half of their position in BP, no?
They shorted the rest x3?
Does anyone here read Zero Hedge?
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/series-lucky-coincidences-involving-goldman-sachs-bp-plc
LOL!!
simply fortuitous coincidence, repeatedly. Lol
But the tide is going out and we begin to see the string of coincidental carcasses
They just come for the comments...