This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.

50,000 Turn Out To Protest Against Government Handling Of Irish Bailout

Tyler Durden's picture





 

"What hurts me the most is why is the taxpayer paying for the IMF. Why are we bailing out the banks. These are the people who took the risk, let them take the hurt, let them feel the hurt." That is the common refrain of the tens of thousands of people who took to the streets today in Dublin, protesting against the government's rescue of various European banks (and Goldman Sachs) investment losses. More from RTE: "Gardaí said that around 10,000 people started the march, however the
crowd swelled to around 50,000 people as it moved down the quays. Speakers at the march had estimated that the crowd was between 100,000 and 150,000. A small group of around 400 protestors are currently at the front gates of Leinster House. Some 60 gardaí are lining the footpath in front of the building, with crash barriers erected in front of them."

Luckily, so far the demonstrations are peaceful. However, the message sent to Brian Cowen is loud and clear: get out, and take your bailout plan with you.

More from the Telegraph:

The rally was the first major demonstration since Ireland agreed to accept a €90 billion (£77 billion) loan from the European Union and International Monetary Fund to save the country from bankruptcy.

People are very unhappy, and this is their last chance to protest before the budget," said Pat Kenny, a 45-year-old postal worker and labour union official, distributing bright blue banners as the march began.

"But today is just the start of a campaign against the plan. This government doesn't have a mandate to govern, they should allow for a general election and let the public say if they are in favour of the four-year plan."

Thousands of marchers — led by a traditional pipe band — crowded along the banks of Dublin's River Liffey, banging drums and blowing whistles.

Banners carried slogans including "It's not out fault, we must default," and "No country for young men," a reference to the squeeze on jobs.

As part of the crisis negotiations, Ireland published a plan this week to slash €15 billion from its deficits over the next four years, with the harshest cuts and tax hikes earmarked for the next budget being published Dec. 7.

Prime Minister Brian Cowen has admitted that the slashing will lower the living standards of everyone in this country of 4.5 million.

But he insists Ireland has no choice given that the nation's 2010 deficit is running at 32 per cent of GDP, the highest in Europe since World War II.

Saturday's rally coincides with reports that the EU-IMF fund could charge interest rates of up to 6.7 per cent, higher than the 5.2 per cent that applied to Greece's €110 billion bail-out in May.

And a video report on the scene, via RTE:

 


- advertisements -

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Sat, 11/27/2010 - 11:48 | Link to Comment total nonsense
total nonsense's picture

If only we in this country could stand up for our rights and how this government is turning us into what will be a third world country.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 11:59 | Link to Comment cossack55
cossack55's picture

"We" are too concerned with trampling the old, slow, and feeble at the Target entrance in order to claim a worthless piece of Chinese shit.  Stand up for our rights? Please.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 12:35 | Link to Comment flacon
flacon's picture

All the politicians have to do is REVALUE gold. But they are loath to do that because they are all nazi's:

"Gold is not neccesary. I have no interest in gold. We will build a solid state, without an ounce of gold behind it. Anyone who sells above the set prices, let him be marched off to a concentration camp. That's the bastion of money." ~ Adolf Hitler

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 12:49 | Link to Comment zelter
zelter's picture

They're all Nazis because of your fake quote?

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 13:27 | Link to Comment caconhma
caconhma's picture

flacon
 must be one of these Jewish propaganda liars.

Adolf Hitler was not an idiot. He was was a German patriot and a dictator.

He correctly blamed Jewish bankers all around world for being responsible for the Great Depression and the misery and suffering that followed.

Hitler was not the initiator of the WWII. FDR and Stalin were the WWII initiators. Hitler was against the barbaric Versaille Treaty. It had to go, and many European leaders were agreed with him. Even comrade Lenin stated that the Versaille Treaty was written by gangsters to destroy Germany.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 13:59 | Link to Comment LeBalance
LeBalance's picture

But as the creators of history, the Masses do not have to follow the exhortors.

If the PTB crashed the "illusion" planes into the WTC and exhorted and no one responded to their idiocy, the PTB would go away.

But because the "entertainment" of WW and fire and death is so enticing and **needed** the "sheep" (who are not sheep, but fully in control of their entertainment) create that experience for themselves.

"The place where you are right now, God circled on a map for you" - Hafiz

"Beyond our ideas of right-doing and wrong-doing,
there is a field. I'll meet you there.
When the soul lies down in that grass,
the world is too full to talk about.
Ideas, language, even the phrase 'each other'
doesn't make sense any more." - Rumi

No one is outside of the Love.  Ever.

Everyone is in Love always.  There are no experiences that are not Love.

Our judgmental society has taught us that certain experiences are not Love, but we have discarded our old ways of thinking, have we not?

:) LB

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 06:44 | Link to Comment sherryw
sherryw's picture

LB, In that case, everything is perfect, so why comment?

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 14:16 | Link to Comment Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

He was an idiot (IQ of 75), practiced bestiality, and was a puppet of the church of Rome.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 15:19 | Link to Comment bullwinkle
bullwinkle's picture

Well Bush apparently had an IQ of 125.  Guess which one was smarter?

Hint:  He doesn't have a brother named Jeb

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 15:49 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

wht a fucking fool you showed yourself to be - perhaps that is your bio

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 15:04 | Link to Comment High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

I get sick and tired of the Hitler comparisons that continuously are expounded  here and there. If anything he was a complex man, and he was a poltician and who really knows at this point, (due mainly to our taught history) what he was really all about or what really happened back then?  Who does?  I believe he stood up as a champion of white western european ideals in the face of the communist menace that was facing europe. At the end of ww2, George Patton stated that he finally realized who the true enemy was and that we fought the wrong people. He said he was determned to come back to the states and discuss the issue at length. Not long after this, he was in a minor car wreck and was taken to a hospital with non life threatening injuries and somehow he died. Its funny how things like that work isn't it?

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 15:52 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

laughable all the envy still thrown at Hitler..  if he was such a mindless fool, so many current politicos wouldn't be rehashing, studying every move he ever made

 

and they SAY so as not to let history to repeat, but the only part they do not want to repeat is his demise

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 19:37 | Link to Comment Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

 - we are talking about Corporal Hitler, right?

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 07:59 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

"we are talking about Corporal Hitler, right?"

That's what I was wondering.

Hitler and Stalin were both self absorbed paranoid schizophrenics who rose to, and kept power through, intimidation, oppression, murder and war on anyone who was a threat to their own illusions of grandeur.

The leveled cities and property can be re-built...but the millions of people who died because of their ambition is only a cursory glance of their destruction...there were millions more who were never born because of them.

How many Einstein's, Tesla's, Picasso's, Chopin's were never even a gleam in two peoples eye because of these fucking madmen?

I'm constantly amazed at the rehabilitation efforts people make concerning these two...and throw in that dickhead in the half-assed disco suit Mao as well.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 17:34 | Link to Comment laughing_swordfish
laughing_swordfish's picture

+ 100

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 02:53 | Link to Comment revenue_anticip...
revenue_anticipation_believer's picture

HIGH PLAINS DRIFTER

" At the end of ww2, George Patton stated that he finally realized who the true enemy was and that we fought the wrong people. He said he was determned to come back to the states and discuss the issue at length. Not long after this, he was in a minor car wreck and was taken to a hospital with non life threatening injuries and somehow he died. Its funny how things like that work isn't it?"

Very Few People KNOW this FACT....I found out by accident, visiting the Patton Museum at Sirroco Summit Pass, California, the news clipping, and i bought a book, a couple, at that museum. VERY VERY revealing...

Patton was executed! Strangely analogous to his German Mirror image the Desert Fox, 
Rommel

...who was invited to shot himself, and promised a full '
State Funeral and honors, and a stipend for life for his family....

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 15:25 | Link to Comment geminiRX
geminiRX's picture

Your statements about WWII are a flagrant example of a deteriorating education system in the US *and* why people such as yourself are a clear and present danger to the world itself. Unf*cking believable! Hitler was a tyrant.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 16:07 | Link to Comment zelter
zelter's picture

Interesting, the public school twinks are coming out of the woodwork displaying their "knowledge." FDR and his fellow Jews did indeed instigate the war whilst having the rubes reelect him on the basis of American neutrality, much like Bush was in 2000.

Hitler was no more tyrannical in locking people out of their choices than representative democracy.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 19:08 | Link to Comment doolittlegeorge
doolittlegeorge's picture

Jews for Bush?  Really?  I recall only one trip to "the City"--and that was when "it lay in ruins."  I find the "accolades of the Third Reich" rather odd, too.  Ever ask "what the Nazi's planned to do with their conquests"?  Answer:  "take pictures and eat schnitzel."  Even the Russians had a better plan than that.  Still "no one can match the inscrutable...

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 19:49 | Link to Comment zelter
zelter's picture

Neocon journalists propped up Bush even as he laid down his campaign promises of "no nation buliding." I found that odd at the time, now I don't.

The Nazis--more specifically, this was Himmler's pet project which I doubt would have come to fruition post-war--planned to section some neighbouring Eastern European countries, kidnap or forcefully integrate some "Germanised" or "Germanisable" children/adults of said areas (e.g., Poles), mostly keep other Euro minorities where they are, and cordon the rest of the nations to some proportional, large area within their countries. Also nabbing some Russian territory for agriculture. None of which I'd personally subject fellow European peoples to. It's little different in vileness from the present day ethnic cleansing operations newspoken as "multiculturalism," except at the very least Europe would have remained European.

As for what the person I critiqued said, a fair share of the blame for the outbreak of the war can fall upon the "peacemakers" who really wanted war with Germany, namely the United States government. The only ones fooled by claims of American neutrality were the American people who re-elected FDR in 1940 on the basis of not meddling in foreign conflicts, a traditionally American foreign policy which Hollywood and the corporate mass-media falsely dubbed "Isolationism." The American First movement, which was highly critical of Roosevelt's covertly belligerent foreign policy, recognised that neutral countries with the influence of the United States could indeed help broker peace agreements and conflict resolution, and had urged cautious and prudence with Germany and all nations--but when this is dubbed Isolationism and Appeasement, the only alternative is Unconditional Surrender and a bloodbath.

Anything else?

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 20:04 | Link to Comment Rick64
Rick64's picture

Would like to add BOE, BIS, Chase Manhattan, and several other financial institutions/corporations cooperated with the nazis as the war was going on.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 02:05 | Link to Comment geminiRX
geminiRX's picture

Speaking of coming out of the woodwork, that's funny....I was thinking it has been awhile since I've read the musings of a skinhead who has worked diligently to rewrite history to suit his own fantasy world. Or maybe you're the like who has seen a psychiatrist a number of times and on a myriad of antipsychotropics. Likely being the latter, your comments are a stain on the memory of generations of soldiers who gave their lives so your twinkie-ladden ass can sit there and write absolute bullshit:)

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 15:26 | Link to Comment eatthebanksters
eatthebanksters's picture

caconhma, you speak as if you are a German speaking for all Germans...I am German, I am not Jewish, you do not speak for me as you a fucktard nutball.  People like you are dangerous.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 15:55 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

don't ya love how the left can keep saying that "not all tea baggers are racists, but all racists are tea baggers"

 

but to hell and high water if anyone can say "not all bankers are crooked jews, but all crooked jews are banksters"

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 16:01 | Link to Comment buzzard beak
buzzard beak's picture

What's so dangerous about Nazis? Those ones at Stalingrad were a bit too thin and bony, but these days most Nazis are fat and stupid, just like I like 'em.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 16:20 | Link to Comment buzzard beak
buzzard beak's picture

Oh no somebody hit my junk button! I'm so intimidated! 

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 16:09 | Link to Comment zelter
zelter's picture

Gutmensch detected. How goes Germany, by the way, with its natives being ethnically cleansed and minoritised in their own land in less than half a century?

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 17:43 | Link to Comment laughing_swordfish
laughing_swordfish's picture

Die DeutscherVolk have already taken up the issue.

Thilo Sarrazin and others have placed the issues of our time before the people.

Everything Hitler predicted would happen if the Jews and Communists got their way has come to pass.

The German People will rise again, and a third installment of Furor Teutonicus awaits.

It is basically one conflict since 1914 - with a twenty year and a seventy year "armistice" thrown in.

Deutschland Erwache !

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 18:04 | Link to Comment zelter
zelter's picture

The issue of our time is the race-replacement of ethnic Europeans in Europe. Thilo Sarrazin called for more of the same by advocating the forced "integration" of Muslims, whose nonattendance to "integration" is the only thing that's mildly likable about their presence. Thilo officially still stands for each and every one of these:

Indigenous peoples have the collective and individual right not to be subjected to ethnocide and cultural genocide, including prevention of and redress for:

(a) Any action which has the aim or effect of depriving them of their integrity as distinct peoples, or of their cultural values or ethnic identities;
(b) Any action which has the aim or effect of dispossessing them of their lands, territories or resources;
(c) Any form of population transfer which has the aim or effect of violating or undermining any of their rights;
(d) Any form of assimilation or integration by other cultures or ways of life imposed on them by legislative, administrative or other measures;
(e) Any form of propaganda directed against them.

Yeah, he and Merkel calls "multiculturalism" dead; and the new lode star becomes "integration," which sounds even worse for the demographic situation of the Krauts. Anything short of an immigration freeze and a plan for the expulsion of alien elements is a species of fraud offered to lull the long suffering, now slightly awakening, native populations back to sleep. That implies, as a first step, disentangling oneself from the quagmire of Council of Europe international laws, which absolutely no one is even deigning of touching.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 18:29 | Link to Comment laughing_swordfish
laughing_swordfish's picture

You're right.

"Mulit-Kulti" , "Tolerance" and unlimited Islamic immigration are all the revenge of the Jew toward the free peoples of Europe.

Only a Europe Islamischerein Und Judenrein will have a chance to be free.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 21:40 | Link to Comment Kayman
Kayman's picture

WTF ???!!!

Uncle Hitler was a nice guy, just misunderstood ???

Hitler was a fucking murdering megalomaniac, alongside his murdering pal Uncle Joe.

I am not a Jew, and I do not wish you or them any harm. 

What possible long term strategy was considered by planting a Jewish "homeland" in the middle of millions of Muslims that hate you ???

If the U.S. continues to flog the current dead horse of printing money instead of creating wealth, then if I was Israel, I would be looking hard for another piece of turf.

Without Uncle Sam, the lost tribes would be, indeed, lost.

Fuck Hitler, Fuck Stalin, Fuck Mao.

I neither love nor hate the "Jews" but I despise Neo Nazi revisionist history.

It's too bad Hitler didn't choke on his niece's piss before he murdered her.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 22:13 | Link to Comment Green Leader
Green Leader's picture

"...if I was Israel, I would be looking hard for another piece of turf."

They are: Patagonia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO0dYp0UOUw

 

 

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 23:21 | Link to Comment Oracle of Kypseli
Oracle of Kypseli's picture

Tremendo

Tue, 11/30/2010 - 02:43 | Link to Comment Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

Thilo Sarrazin, the Sarracen.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 12:07 | Link to Comment snowball777
snowball777's picture

Don't prematurely knock 3rd world countries...

http://www.economist.com/node/17583123?story_id=17583123

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 13:07 | Link to Comment Careless Whisper
Careless Whisper's picture

we're not in any position to knock anyone. we got our own debt problems. our annual deficit is about 10% of gdp and that's the number that everyone over there is complaining about. but apparently miss sheila blair, in an op-ed,  thinks we need to raise taxes to solve the deficit problem. Overly generous tax subsidies for housing...  that's politician speak for eliminating the mortgage interest deduction. enact comprehensive tax reform... that politician speak for raising everyone's taxes. and tax increases over many years... now she tries the direct approach. But we must never take public or investor confidence for granted. delusions that empower them to do whatever they damn well please.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/25/AR201011...

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 13:48 | Link to Comment snowball777
snowball777's picture

Oh, I see...it's only the entitlements of other people you have a problem with.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 22:50 | Link to Comment hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

I had a similar discussion today with a soon-to-be recipient of a public-servant pension.  He was saying how entitlements needed to be cut, and I asked him how he and his fellow police officers will react when their very generous pensions are halved, or worse?  He had clearly not thought of his police pension as an entitlement, but rather something he was entitled to.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 01:06 | Link to Comment snowball777
snowball777's picture

I think I'm better with a guy who put his neck on the line being able to care for his loved ones should he take one for the team than I am watching top 3%-ers write off gobs of mort interest because they can.

Can you tell I'm a renter? Not that I'm not happy to be, given the number of folks underwater; they didn't get me.

 

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 21:18 | Link to Comment RKDS
RKDS's picture

In Pennsylvania, state employees are forced to contribute to their pension plans but the public at large seems ignorant of that fact.  In fact, it is the government who has been deferring their contribution for years, making the hysteria over a coming spike in pension costs all the more ridiculous.  Surprise, don't pay on your credit cards and interest accrues, news at 11.

They'll cut the pensions (they've already done some cutting, despite the fact that we'd be ahead even in this climate if the government hadn't shorted us in the first place) and make exactly zero progress on the budget because they already weren't paying their obligations.  Meanwhile, school administrators and welfare dependants of all stripes (minority, corporate, legislative, etc) will all get their regularly scheduled raises.

I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place, being a non-union public employee entering the 3rd year of a pay freeze while everything else (insurance contributions, property taxes, energy, food, etc) keeps going up.  Ending the mortgage deduction would probably be just enough to put me underwater.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 23:25 | Link to Comment Oracle of Kypseli
Oracle of Kypseli's picture

I saw Sheila the other day and she has lost a lot of weight. She worries a lot. Can't sleep well at night. She thinks a lot and she knows what's coming.

Take note mates... 

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 15:11 | Link to Comment Bob
Bob's picture

When people face hurt like the Irish are, we'll hit the streets.  It's an American tradition. 

Let them not further extend Unemployment benefits and you'll be hearing it soon. 

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 13:25 | Link to Comment goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

Let the Irish say fukk 'em like the Icelanders did.

 

 

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 16:48 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

take away tv & internet and you would get a rally of insane proportions

 

no worry about satellite - only the boonie freaks use that

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 11:49 | Link to Comment williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 11:52 | Link to Comment beastie
beastie's picture

Very good William. That about sums it up.

Any word from your friend on how to sleuth through the mortgage maze?

 

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 11:56 | Link to Comment williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

His chart is now all over the internet. Just google Most Complicated Mortgage Chart. He was also on the Eliot Spitzer show. I want him to testify for Angelides. ;-)

And I am rooting for the Irish to start the party!

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 13:55 | Link to Comment THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

So Goldman has a claim on Munster........

They will soon have a office in Corks thriving financial district - business is brisk now.


Grand Parade and South Mall > Cork Past and Present

 

 

 

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 03:29 | Link to Comment revenue_anticip...
revenue_anticipation_believer's picture

maybe...then maybe Goldman will have a little taste of economic violence, in London, New York, Singapore, Australia, and employees volunteering to stay at home....permanently...

could be, huh? Money reality, is after all 'imaginary' and by 'agreement' in good faith...time fror the Goldie fairy tale to end up 'ring around the rosie/goldie...all fall down, now goldie...

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 15:36 | Link to Comment Bob
Bob's picture

Hail to the Fighting Irish!

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 13:29 | Link to Comment goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

Ah the forkin Irish.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 11:56 | Link to Comment Oligarchs Gone Wild
Oligarchs Gone Wild's picture

Banzai speaks in a globally understood terms. 

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 12:00 | Link to Comment cossack55
cossack55's picture

Sweet.  How about a bottle of Guiness as a Molotov Cocktail?

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 12:01 | Link to Comment Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

a perfect metaphor.  Well done sir.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 12:10 | Link to Comment williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 12:30 | Link to Comment Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

NOW THAT IS WHAT I WOULD FIND A ECOFRIENDLY PROTEST!

RECYLCLING BITCHEZ!!

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 14:09 | Link to Comment williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

Whoever is junking this image does not fully appreciate the irony of what is happening in Ireland.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 19:14 | Link to Comment doolittlegeorge
doolittlegeorge's picture

it's worse than irony. it's "life imitating art." both hilarious and enraging at the same time.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 14:09 | Link to Comment M.B. Drapier
M.B. Drapier's picture

I don't mean to be overbearing, but this is seriously unhelpful.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 14:27 | Link to Comment Real Estate Geek
Real Estate Geek's picture

Overbearing?  I think the word you were looking for was "timid."

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 14:33 | Link to Comment williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

Yes, that is exactly what they want us all to think. Seriously unhelpful. Move it  on sheeple!

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 08:19 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

Bobby Sands...there's a name I haven't heard in awhile.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 12:25 | Link to Comment Dr Hackenbush
Dr Hackenbush's picture

The political map is perfect. Would love to see all ~seventeen banks that control the planet on an overlay map - it would help the people visualize who/what is actually in control. 

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 12:30 | Link to Comment Haigh
Haigh's picture

If the Irish want to get the bankers off their backs they will first have to balance their budget. With a 2010 budget deficit of 32% of GDP no amount of street protests are going to stem the tide of austerity.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 13:35 | Link to Comment traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

No. They could default, leave the Euro, and print/issue their own sovereign currency, without debt or interest. They could use their gold holdings as a currency buffer in a variety of ways.

The paradigm of debt-money (and national debts) was created by the banks, for the banks, and is supported by banks. 

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 13:54 | Link to Comment A_MacLaren
A_MacLaren's picture

+1.4 Quadrillion, including derivatives.  Any estimate on a truly Global number?

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 14:12 | Link to Comment traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

That's the elephant in the room card played by the bankers. But it's their problem not ours. Let the derivatives default. Let the current private fractional reserve banking system collapse. Those derivatives have never been, nor will they ever be, able to be settled. Re-issue a whole new currency - without debt and without interest. See Lincoln's Greenback. 

The derivatives only matter because the bankers want them to matter. 

http://www.chrismartenson.com/forum/explaining-why-sovereign-vs-debt-mon...

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 16:10 | Link to Comment Bob
Bob's picture

It's just a cheap card trick. 

Let 'em play 52 card pick-up. 

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 22:54 | Link to Comment hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

For the late-arriving readers to this forum, please allow me to catch you up on the banks' plan:

SOCIALIZE THE LOSSES (not the gains).

That is it. 

Plan accordingly.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 13:42 | Link to Comment goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

For the late-arriving readers to this forum, please allow me to catch you up on the banks' plan:

 

In other words:

Steal everything of value by manipulating the currency.

Start a Strategy of Tension aka Reischtag Fire: Okla. bombing;  911; Impose Homeland Security like the SS. Kill people who get in the way.

Render the people impotent by shutting down the factories where they could earn a living in a productive society; take over control of the food production industries; take over ownership of houses.

Render the people fearful by watching their neighbors twisting in the wind with no unemployment, $300 foodstamps and a increasing consumer price index. 

Let them eat cake.

That is it. 

Plan accordingly.

 

 

 

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 17:56 | Link to Comment Haigh
Haigh's picture

Sure they could do that, but if they continued their fiscal ways of  deficit spending at 20+% of GDP no one, not their trading partners, or probably even the public would have any faith in the currency.

 

 

 

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 18:25 | Link to Comment traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

Not true. Sovereign treasuries can issue money - without debt and without interest. In the current context, the word "deficit" implies debt, and the need to borrow. Treasuries do not need to borrow. They can spend money into existence, with the only constraint being inflation. Countries, including the US, have had decent periods of prosperity with Treasury issued currency. 

But, obviously, the bankers hate it. 

Yes, there are issues with Treasury issued money, but at least the money-issuance lies with the people, and not with private companies. And there is no interest subsidy offered to bankers...

http://ecclesia.org/forum/uploads/bondservant/greenbackP.pdf

 

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 19:39 | Link to Comment Haigh
Haigh's picture

Central bankers are bad enough. The half-life of a currency controlled by a polticial body will be a lot less. A medium of exchange whose store of value is suspect will self destruct. A positive consequence could be the rise of competing private currencies. But in the end the Irish will learn consumption (high perpetual deficits) can not exceed production (direct-taxes plus indirect-taxes(inflation)) indefinitely.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 20:08 | Link to Comment traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

I agree for the most part. I'm no fan of the politicians, but the US has defaulted twice since 1913 and the inception of the Federal Reserve (confiscation of gold and then taking off gold standard). Again, at the very least the bankers will not earn an inappropriate subsidy from unnecessary interest and money won't be created through debt. 

But I totally and wholeheartedly agree with the desirability of competing private currencies. Citizens should be able to choose their preferred methods of both storing value over time, and making transactions. 

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 21:23 | Link to Comment goldsaver
goldsaver's picture

Currency is not a store of value. It is just currency. See how much value the dollar has kept during the last 100 years and tell me it is a store of value. Gold, silver, arable land, those are stores of value.

Currency can be a boom to a nation or the chains that bind them depending upon who controls it. If bankers control it, you are the banker's slave.

A sovereign currency carries no interest because is not debt. It needs no taxation because it is issued by the representatives of the people. It is self controlling because the people can reject the government (via elections or revolutions) or reject the currency (by demanding more currency for real goods when the currency is debased).

It's debasement is visible by all (in higher prices) and can not be blamed by politicians on others (the Chinese, the poor, the rich, the corporations) since they control its issuance.

It has worked every time its been tried, as long as it was not tied to debt. Debt currency has always failed.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 21:51 | Link to Comment traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

Holy sh*t - well said!

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 05:48 | Link to Comment Haigh
Haigh's picture

“by traderjoe
 Citizens should be able to choose their preferred methods of both storing value over time, and making transactions. “

We are on the same page.

“by goldsaver
“Currency is not a store of value. “

That’s definitional. If I choose a bullion bank for all my wages and spending transactions I have a currency not subject to the whims of those who do not understand that my wages are my time, and my time is owned by me.

 

 “ See how much value the dollar has kept during the last 100 years and tell me it is a store of value. “

Agreed. It was flawed from the day it was born.

“A sovereign currency carries no interest because is not debt. It needs no taxation because it is issued by the representatives of the people. It is self controlling because the people can reject the government (via elections or revolutions) or reject the currency (by demanding more currency for real goods when the currency is debased).”

The Zero Hedge subject  is Ireland. With Ireland’s  current culture of massive deficit spending the likelihood this body politic would vote for prudent management of a sovereign currency is low.

“It's debasement is visible by all (in higher prices)”

It has all the ethics of a lynch mob. In a lynch mob, the lynching is visible to all. The visibility does not add to the ethics of the mob’s decision. Again, we are talking about my wages, my time, and my time is owned by me. Democracy must be held on a tight leash whose tautness is respect for the individual.

“and can not be blamed by politicians on others (the Chinese, the poor, the rich, the corporations) since they control its issuance.”

You underestimate the gullibility of the masses and the creativity of the sycophants of the status quo.

“It has worked every time its been tried, as long as it was not tied to debt. Debt currency has always failed.”

References please?

Tue, 11/30/2010 - 22:23 | Link to Comment John_Coltrane
John_Coltrane's picture

So true.  Currency is only legal tender for debt settlement as stated on FRNs.  But the only way one would want politicians to control the issue of currency is if a finite resource, or basket of resources (say gold, copper, oil, food, silver etc.) backed it allowed redemtion of the currency in terms of these real stores of value.  This keeps a nation living within its means of production and future production.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 04:09 | Link to Comment revenue_anticip...
revenue_anticipation_believer's picture

Trader Joe

"leave the Euro, and print/issue their own sovereign currency, without debt or interest."

but of course, used to be in Scotland, each bank issued 'banknotes' the North Dakota State Bank is damm near to doing just that....

the USA clever law is the 'legal tender law' obviously needs to be revolked EVERYWHERE,

Oh yah, take names of ALL those opposed...
Isn't the Internet, databases, all that wonderful...you seee what just ONE harvestor 'Wikileaks' can find....the names, the economic crimes, the whole record EXISTS, forever...no name-taking needed...most of the criminals will not officially be punished, but 'unofficially' will NEVER be able to enjoy the rest of their life of Billionari man of leisure...there SOON be nowhere to hide...oh yah, and extortion of the Rich...a brave new world where NOTHING is forgotten...totally unlike the 1984 version...

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 12:32 | Link to Comment Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

What amazes me is that Sherwood forest is now in the Goldman Province...

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 12:43 | Link to Comment Oligarchs Gone Wild
Oligarchs Gone Wild's picture

WB7 - There needs to be a universally understood symbol created as a crest of anti-bankster sentiment. Like a brand, a movement, a symbolic icon that unifies the cause of rising up against enslavement to the bankster class.   It has to be simple, one that can be affixed with a spraycan, a pen or wildly illustrated in other forms speaking the same message to every nations subjects and abusers.

Would love to see what the olde Banzai lab can come up with.

 

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 12:46 | Link to Comment williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

I was literally just thinking about this!

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 13:04 | Link to Comment apberusdisvet
apberusdisvet's picture

How about a set of spread cheeks with the dollar signhalf inserted?

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 13:05 | Link to Comment Ferrari
Ferrari's picture

I have no background for this problem, but thinking off the top of my head, a triangle, in a circle with a line though it might work, to represent the pyramid on the dollar? Dunno. Such a symbol would be quite useful.

 

We don’t agree on all the solutions, but we’re not alone and we should unite to take the swine down.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 13:52 | Link to Comment williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

Well I was thinking upside down triangle with a pig inside...This concept can be done as a stencil or as a simple graffiti. It can be simple or elaborated. 

I suggest everyone keep putting ideas up here and I will play around with them in the Lab ;-)

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 13:57 | Link to Comment eblair
eblair's picture

WILLIAM.  HOW DO YOU UPLOAD JPGS?

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 14:03 | Link to Comment williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

I have permission as a ZH contributor. To share an image, upload it to a host like picasa or flickr, both of which are free, and post the link here. 

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 14:21 | Link to Comment Oligarchs Gone Wild
Oligarchs Gone Wild's picture

Spraypainted pig is perfect, triangle isn't working.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 14:35 | Link to Comment williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 14:39 | Link to Comment Oligarchs Gone Wild
Oligarchs Gone Wild's picture

Replace the shoe with your spraypainted pig?   That spraypainted pig has potential.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 14:57 | Link to Comment Real Estate Geek
Real Estate Geek's picture

+1

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 15:08 | Link to Comment williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 18:21 | Link to Comment szjon
szjon's picture

It must be simple, something you can spray quick and dissapear. When you have something make it known. I for one will go and deface my local anglo, aib etc and post pics.

 

I always think of bankers in bowler hats, a simple line bowler hat with the scored out circle over it?

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 00:17 | Link to Comment williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

I thought about bowlers. I don't think everyone makes the historic connection anymore. In NY people would think it is a Hasidim hat.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 18:29 | Link to Comment blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

Maybe make the pigtail a dollar sign?  It'll look a bit strange, but would add "bank" emphasis.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 18:35 | Link to Comment traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

What about making the eyes an "x", sort of Spy v. Spy style?

Then you could take out the cross-out circle... 

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 18:42 | Link to Comment Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

Use the Monopoly banker man

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 03:55 | Link to Comment chindit13
chindit13's picture

WB7,

Maybe it's a little late, but you might consider doing some Season's Greeting cards and selling them off the ZH Store as a fundraiser.

Suggestion:  a take on Santa Claus, with Bernanke as Santa, Tiny Tim Geithner as his elf (Geithner is the right size), the sleigh replaced by a helicopter, and the two men tossing out bags of cash while flying over Hamptons' estates.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 13:47 | Link to Comment goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

Suggestion: As simple to replicate as the peace sign with a corresponding hand sign.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 16:02 | Link to Comment Careless Whisper
Careless Whisper's picture

any thoughts on a crown dripping blood?

something like this:

http://image.spreadshirt.net/image-server/image/design/6076975/type/png/...

with a little of this effect, only graffitti style:

http://0.tqn.com/d/graphicssoft/1/0/0/b/5/Dripping-Blood-blog.gif

 

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 00:31 | Link to Comment williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

I think a crown points in the wrong direction. It symbolizes wealth, but we are not battling the Royals this time around ;-)

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 00:36 | Link to Comment williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

Here is a EURO Pig. The problem with this is it requires 10 strokes which is pushing it if you are doing a graffiti. 

Here are two other ideas. The Null Sign (2 strokes), which is similar to but not the same as the peace sign and the Backward EURO sign (3 Strokes).

I looked up the genesis of the Peace symbol. It is a combination of the semaphore symbols for N and D (Nuclear Disarmament). It caught on after it was bannered at a major rally.

I think that is really what it will take to get a symbol to go viral. Either someone will have to deface a major installation so it gets on the MSM or it will have to be carried at a major rally.

As far as I can tell, there are no symbols that have been adopted for the Anti-Banksta cause, yet...

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 13:33 | Link to Comment eblair
eblair's picture

I can't draw worth a shite, but I just drew a boot on top of a piggy bank, with a dollar sign on it.  You can change the currency of course. :)  Tell me how to upload jpgs.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 18:27 | Link to Comment palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

Maybe a guillotine above the dollar's Eye of Providence symbol with the eye in the triangle looking upward at the blade, pupil dilated?

http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumb...

If history is to be repeated and possibly orchestrated, the least we can do is learn from it....

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 04:48 | Link to Comment revenue_anticip...
revenue_anticipation_believer's picture

"williambanzai7 I was literally just thinking about this" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf http://www.johnreilly.info/wer.htm Werwolf! The History of the National Socialist Guerrilla Movement, 1944-1946 by Perry Biddiscombe University of Toronto Press, 1998 455 Pages, US$ 39.95 ISBN: 0-8020-0862-3 Joseph Goebbels, Minister of Propaganda and Gauleiter of Berlin, showed no signs of slacking in the months before he killed himself in Hitler's bunker on May 1, 1945. According to the selections from his diary edited by Hugh Trevor-Roper and published as "Final Entries 1945," he not only attended to his ordinary duties regarding national editorial policy and the defense of the city, but also found time to do things like review the new tax code and to arrange for an annoying colleague to be drafted. Of all these activities, however, perhaps the most surreal was his enthusiastic support for the "Werwolf" movement. Goebbels spoke of the Werwolf almost as if it were an electoral campaign. Despite the other things he had on his mind, he exerted himself to create a new Werwolf radio station, and even tried to found a newspaper. (The radio station actually operated for a few weeks.) Propaganda for and about the Werwolf were among the last products of the regime. In retrospect, some commentators have tended to dismiss the Werwolf as something of a Nazi hoax, one whose primary effect was to induce the western Allies to invade Germany on a broad front, rather than go directly for Berlin. Still, I for one have sometimes wondered just what this "Werwolf" effort was, and how seriously the Nazis took it. Perry Biddiscombe, an assistant professor of history at the University of Victoria, answers in "Werwolf!" all the questions you are likely to have about the movement, and in a very readable form. (Don't be intimidated by the apparent size of the book, by the way: the text ends at page 285, followed by notes and appendices.) "Werwolf!" provides valuable insights into the "polyarchic" nature of the Nazi regime, both in its salad days and in its dissolution, as well as a general overview of the last few months of the war in Europe. Finally, though the author does not address this matter, the book may provide some useful ideas for counterfactual speculation about the possible evolution of National Socialist society, had it survived the war. The term "Werwolf" is the equivalent of the English "werewolf," meaning "man-wolf" or "lycanthrope." There is, however, another term, "Wehrwolf," which is pronounced about the same as "Werwolf," but which means "defense wolf." "Wehrwolf" actually has a long association with irregular warfare in Germany. A famous novel by that title, written by one Hermann Loens and published in 1910, was a romantic treatment of peasant guerrillas in northern Germany during the 17th century. Though this novel was in fact promoted by the Nazi government, particularly the Hitler Youth, the spelling "Werwolf" was favored when the Germans began planning for partisan warfare, because the Nazis had had a competitor on the Right in the 1920s called the "Wehrwolf Bund." Besides, "Werwolf" sounded more feral. As with so much else the Nazi government did, the Werwolf initiative was something of a pillow fight, with different actors competing for control of Werwolf organizations and with different ideas for what the Werwolf was supposed to do. The original concept was clear enough, however. "Clausewitzian partisans" are part of orthodox military doctrine. They are militia who operate behind the lines in territory occupied by the enemy. Their function is to cut supply lines and generally cause confusion, but their operation presupposes the continued existence of a national government and a conventional army. The Germans had experience fielding irregular forces of this nature, both against Napoleon and in the form of the independent "Freikorps" units that operated in eastern Germany during the chaotic period just after the First World War. The Germans started thinking about them again as soon as the situation on the Russian front began to deteriorate, and in fact anti-Communist partisans did the Red Army appreciable damage. It was only in the last half of 1944, however, that the Germans began to focus on the possibility that the Allies might have to be resisted within Germany itself. This was a job that no major player in the German government or the military wanted to be associated with until the last moment. Thinking about the penetration of Germany, even the extended Germany of Hitler's annexations, implied a fair amount of defeatism. Additionally, the military was not keen on sharing its dwindling resources for training and material with civilian stay-behind groups. In principle, the Werwolf was commanded by SS Chief Heinrich Himmler, through a back channel consisting of local chiefs of police. These middle-aged men tended to regard partisan activity as somewhat disreputable, and in any case had no idea how to go about it. Far more dynamic, and only nominally under SS command, was the Werwolf program operated by the Hitler Youth. The story of the Werwolf proper, in fact, is largely a cautionary tale about what happens when you give teenagers a license to kill. Despite all obstacles, training programs were improvised for youths and adults, though the courses sometimes lasted just days. Underground bunkers were prepared in isolated areas, from which the Werwolf were supposed to emerge to strike terror into the enemy. Werwolf was supposed to mesh into the larger project of establishing an "Alpine Redoubt," a base in Austria and mountainous southern Germany to which conventional forces might retreat. Certainly the major Werwolf training bases were located in that area. The last-minute attempt to build underground facilities in the Alps were too little, too late, and the armies ordered to go there never arrived, for the most part. In the final few days, Hitler decided to stay in Berlin, rather than go south and try to organize the Redoubt from Berchtesgaden. Still, it was not quite just a propaganda ploy. What did the Werwolf do? They sniped. They mined roads. They poured sand into the gas tanks of jeeps. (Sugar was in short supply, no doubt.) They were especially feared for the "decapitation wires" they strung across roads. They poisoned food stocks and liquor. (The Russians had the biggest problem with this.) They committed arson, though perhaps less than they are credited with: every unexplained fire or explosion associated with a military installation tended to be blamed on the Werwolf. These activities slackened off within a few months of the capitulation on May 7, though incidents were reported as late as 1947. The problem with assessing the extent of Werwolf activity is that not only official Werwolf personnel committed partisan acts. Much of the regular German fighting forces disarticulated into isolated units that sometimes kept fighting, even after the high command surrendered.. In the east, units that had been bypassed by the Red Army tried to fight their way west, so they could surrender to the Anglo-Americans. In the west, the final "strategy" of the high command was to stop even trying to halt the Allied armored penetrations of Germany, but to hit these units from behind and cut off their supplies. Perhaps the most harrowing accounts in the book are those relating to the expulsion of the ethnic German populations from the Sudetenland and the areas annexed by Poland. The latter theater in particular seems to have been the only point in the European war in which a civilian population was keen about a "scorched earth" strategy. Very little Werwolf activity was directed with an eye toward political survival after the complete occupation of Germany. The Nazi leadership could not bring themselves to think about the matter. Certainly Himmler could not. In the last days before his own suicide, he tried to close the Werwolf down, the better to curry favor with the western Allies. Still, elements of the movement did make some plans for after the war. The Hitler Youth branch devised a political platform for a peaceful, postwar, Werwolf political organization. They also took steps toward ensuring financing for these efforts. In the last days of the war, forward-looking Nazis scurried about Germany with funds taken from the Party or the national treasury, buying up businesses "at fire-sale prices," as Biddiscombe dryly puts it. These enterprises prospered slightly in the months following the end of the fighting, but were wrapped up by the occupation authorities by the end of 1945. This brings us to the role of the Nazi Party in the Werwolf movement. An aspect of the Third Reich on which Biddiscombe lays great stress is the surprisingly derelict state of the Party itself. When the Party was new, it was in many ways a youth movement, or perhaps a brilliant propaganda machine that mobilized a youth movement. Even before the war began, however, it had become little more than a patronage organization, notable mostly for its corruption. The old guard, who had come to power with Hitler, had no new ideas themselves and stubbornly refused to make way for new blood. The Gauleiter, or district leaders, were not an elite, and the organizations they commanded did not attract persons of the first quality. This situation particularly frustrated the "old fighters" like Goebbels and Robert Ley, the labor chief, and Martin Bormann, Hitler's party secretary. Though they continued to have considerable influence on policy because of their strong personal relationships with Hitler, nevertheless they had long been losing institutional power as the Party was eclipsed by the SS. That organization could make some claim to being an elite. At the very least, it was still more feared than despised. Thus, in the closing months of the regime, some of the Party leaders saw the Werwolf as an opportunity to wrest power back from the Reich's decaying institutions. Goebbels especially grasped the possibility that guerrilla war could be a political process as well as a military strategy. It was largely through his influence that the Werwolf assumed something of the aspect of a terrorist organization. Where it could, it tried to prevent individuals and communities from surrendering, and it assassinated civil officials who cooperated with the Allies. Few Germans welcomed these activities, but something else that Goebbels grasped was that terror might serve where popularity was absent. By his estimate, only 10% to 15% of the German population were potential supporters for a truly revolutionary movement. His goal was to use the Werwolf to activate that potential. With the help of the radical elite, the occupiers could be provoked into savage reprisals that would win over the mass of the people to Neo-Nazism, a term that came into use in April 1945. Bizarre as it may seem, Goebbels saw the collapse of the Reich as the opportunity to put through a social revolution, particularly a social revolution manned by radicalized youth. Always on the left-wing of the Party, Goebbels felt that Hitler had been mislead by the Junkers and the traditional military into bourgeois policies that had corrupted the whole movement. With Germany's cities in ruins and its institutions no longer functioning, the possibility had arisen to start again from scratch. Biddiscombe notes that Hermann Rauschning , a former Nazi official who defected to the West before the war, called Nazism a "revolution of nihilism." Biddiscombe suggests that the radical wing of the Party, freed by defeat from the responsibility for actual government and the constraints of a conventional war, reverted in the final days to the nihilistic essence of Nazism. In some ways, Goebbels' policy resembled what Mao Zedong did in China. Even the plans for the Alpine Redoubt are reminiscent of the Long March to the base at Yennan. Before the Long March, the Chinese Communist Party was a fairly conventional Stalinist organization. It presupposed the facilities of civilization for its operation. When it descended from the mountains after the war with Japan ended, however, the Communist Party was something like a new society in itself. Goebbels hoped for something similar in Europe, counting on the sudden outbreak of a war between the western and eastern Allies to provide the strategic breathing room for a renewed regime to coalesce. When no such war broke out, and the Alpine Redoubt proved to be just another Nazi pipe dream, the Werwolf simply evaporated. While perhaps one should not press the Chinese comparison too far, still it is probably significant that the most radical manifestations of Chinese Communism appeared a good 15 or 20 years after the Party came to power. They appeared in time of peace, as old party hands tried to retake control from the conventional organs of government. If the Nazi state had won its war with the Soviet Union and fended off invasion from the West, might something similar have happened? The early Nazi enthusiasm for socialism and social solidarity had become largely rhetorical by 1939, but the ideas always remained, ready to the hand of bold Party officials who might someday find the arrogance of the SS too threatening. Perhaps the Werwolf is the dim reflection in our world of another future. In that world, the 1960s see Brown Guards take over the streets of Germania, the new Nazi capital. Egged on by Old Fighters behind the scenes, they demand that the aristocrats of the SS get off their high horses and learn from the Volk. Ancient universities are closed down or turned into schools of indoctrination. Elderly scholars are sent to country districts to raise pigs. Gullible journalists arrive from abroad, and send home admiring articles about how the Germans must be understood on their own terms.

the appropriate graphic will appear, spontaneously on various public buildings, Everywhere..

http://www.graffiti.org/

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 12:48 | Link to Comment Rick64
Rick64's picture

Agree. Maybe it could unite people all over the world in the fight against the banksters.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 12:48 | Link to Comment breezer1
breezer1's picture

have it include the ZH brand. +1000

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 12:53 | Link to Comment Quixote2
Quixote2's picture

A noose hanging from a lamp post.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 13:26 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

careful...it used to be a six pointed star composed of two overlapping triangles

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 14:05 | Link to Comment williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

You are absolutely right. That is why I trashed a suggestion to do an IMF sign with SS fonts. ;-)

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 05:32 | Link to Comment revenue_anticip...
revenue_anticipation_believer's picture

"It has to be simple, one that can be affixed with a spraycan, a pen or wildly illustrated in other forms speaking the same message to every nations subjects and abusers.":

if there is time, first prepare the paint-surface with industrial grade acetone

Recommended: Heavy duty 'construction/road marking spray paint'
http://www.heavydutystore.com/construction-marking-paint-inverted-pr-639...

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 12:54 | Link to Comment Josephine29
Josephine29's picture

Congratulations on your cartoon William which is very good. It illustrates what many people think is going on. On that theme I read this on notayesmanseconomics this week

 if we look at the various schemes in place we see that private sector bond-holders are likely to have been able to offload much of their holdings onto the ECB and other Euro zone bodies. In that respect we have gone backwards rather than forwards. Is the Euro zone rescuing banks or sovereign nations?

 

I think the question posed is very accurate.

http://notayesmanseconomics.wordpress.com

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 14:07 | Link to Comment williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

We saved their asses on AIG (France and Germany). Then we got to listen to them lecture us about how the subprime meltdown was all our doing.

Now look at this shit hole their bankers made!!!!

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 15:08 | Link to Comment moneymutt
moneymutt's picture

thankyou banzai - The European banks subprimed East Europe the same way US banks subprimed US homeowners...and remember, most sleaxzy subprimers were only doing HELOCS, not mortgages to buy houses, so the lied and frauded people into horrible temr loans so the banskters could make big money until homeowner broke, and then they got the house, problem only cam when no more suckers and house was worthless...then we bailed them out.

Notice how Latvia etc were neo-liberal economists wet dream of how things should be done, they lent them big money, created real estate inflation big time, but when it crashed, French, German, Swedish banks think they should lose a dime, just like our banks...BS...if regular folks have to take their lumps, so should big and rich investors.

And thanks for pointing out the foreign banks were made whole by AIG being bailed out, they did not take a dime loss, got full payment even tho expecting a monoline insurer charging you next to nothing to insure risky stuff to pay out 100 percent in a global crash is ridiculous...when I  make an investment that bad, I lose all my money. Its liek asking Vido's brother to insure my house by paying him $100 a year...please, if it burns. I;m screwed but thats because I'm not a banskter.

I'm convinced Fan and Fred bailout were about making foreigners whole too...don't tell me European banksters had no money in those supposedly un-government backed entity. Banskters, you made a bet US housing would never go down, it was a safe backing of your bonds, you were wrong, you should lose your money.

All banks every where were doing same thing, lending more money to people than the could afford, creating assets bubbles..US had no monopoly on this..its happened in Europe, Australia, China etc...the house of cards first came down here, from a banksters point of view, we took good care of them...and they still complain. F'em

 

On the graphic front, the logo of anti-banksterism should be symbol of strength, populist unity, not just anti=bankster...ala the black fist of US 60s...

 

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 15:22 | Link to Comment Oligarchs Gone Wild
Oligarchs Gone Wild's picture

Agreed, I think there are two 'opportunities' here.  One is a 'tag' or to 'brand' all things that are bankster/Oligarch related (simple spraypainted pig) and the other has to be a symbol of strength and unity as a people AGAINST such things.

This is a global problem, the symbolism must be transparent across borders/currencies.

Simplicity is everything.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 18:16 | Link to Comment Fred Hayek
Fred Hayek's picture

Yes, but don't try to make people buy into a simple that carries baggage of ideology that they don't support.  A lot of people of a lot of different points of view hate the banksters right now.  Don't try to make all of them line up under something that says black panthers or red brigades or whatever.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:05 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

"Don't try to make all of them line up under something that says black panthers or red brigades or whatever."

Exactly.

I hate marxists as much as I hate the fascist crony capitalists who inhabit Wall Street & their handmaidens in DC.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 15:35 | Link to Comment williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

None of the people responsible have been convicted or taken a haircut on anything. It is fucking outrageous!

Those Central Europeans have to pay back debts tied to the Swiss Franc. Imagine how they are being squeezed.

There is really no difference between pushing consumer debt and pushing heroin...except the pushers of herion risk going to jail.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 15:39 | Link to Comment moneymutt
moneymutt's picture

so true....one thing I think all conservatives, liberals, libertarians, people globally can agree on is fraudsters should be held accountable, be policed just like street criminals are

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 16:58 | Link to Comment Oligarchs Gone Wild
Oligarchs Gone Wild's picture

That's the idea, but it takes an IQ of more than 100 and reading a few hours worth of history and economics to get to that end.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 13:37 | Link to Comment traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

F*cking brilliant, re: banker map. 

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 14:45 | Link to Comment Oligarchs Gone Wild
Oligarchs Gone Wild's picture

Spraypainted pig with V for Vendetta overlay.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 15:02 | Link to Comment williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 15:15 | Link to Comment Oligarchs Gone Wild
Oligarchs Gone Wild's picture

In thinking this over, the pig alone by itself may be the correct approach, personally, pig #1 in red w/ nostrils has more impact than pig in white.   But much like the snake in 'don't tread on me' symbolism - the pig implies the appropriate globally understood concept of gluttony.

This is more a tag of those who are pigs, or those who are the oligarchs.  Rather than a banner or crest of those who are AGAINST the pigs.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 15:29 | Link to Comment williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

I am going to wake up in the AM and look at everything there is on the internet in terms of anti bankster symbolism then I will do a post on it if there is enough. ;-)

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 15:34 | Link to Comment Oligarchs Gone Wild
Oligarchs Gone Wild's picture

Banzai? are you admitting you sleep!!!?!?!

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 18:07 | Link to Comment TimmyM
TimmyM's picture

Stamp out a stylized "red sheild" with the ZH logo.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 13:54 | Link to Comment goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

Suggestion A simple design to spray paint onto a towel and hang as a flag. Our own "Old Glory."

I can see the banners on the street houses now.

I can see the windows on the college campuses now.

It better be quick because the time is ripe for revolution and their war can obfuscate their guilt and crime.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 19:15 | Link to Comment palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

Suggested tweaks FWIW:

Make the eyes 'X's... the universal cartoon symbol for dead (as in kill the greed and tyranny).

Cartoon pig noses have an 11 or II in a circle.  That could be used to make a dollar sign.

The 'V' symbol should appear like a strike on the pig head with the point of the 'V' just above the nose splaying out between the eyes and in balance with pointy pig ears.

An arrow point could be placed on the squiggly tail to emphasize the banksters' inherent devilishness.

 

My apologies.  I'm a terrible back seat driver.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 04:57 | Link to Comment Two Face
Two Face's picture

How about a bar that says "Soap" shoved in the piggy's mouth?

You could also graffiti a simple bar of soap w/ the words "Fight Club" (or "Soap" if you need fewer letters).  Those who never saw it might get interested and watch it just to see what all the fuss is about.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 22:47 | Link to Comment goldsaver
goldsaver's picture

So close to the truth is scary. Check out this article I just found.

http://www.tribune.ie/news/article/2010/nov/21/ireland-warned-it-will-have-to-stump-up-state-asse/

BLUF: IMF is telling Ireland they have to put national owned assets as collateral for the bailout. So when they default, and default they will at 6.7% interest, the IMF gets the assets.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 14:21 | Link to Comment goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

Comments by ILA:

Read Confessions of an Economic Hitman. Or just google it. THIS is what is happening now to every country. Load them up with unsustainable debt, then seize the resources. It was planned.

On the homefront, didn't they just sell the Pennsylvania Turnpike?

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 21:29 | Link to Comment RKDS
RKDS's picture

Actually I was fairly sure it never ended up happening due to how much of an uproar it caused a few years ago but it wouldn't be the first time those bastards have snuck something past us.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 02:07 | Link to Comment revenue_anticip...
revenue_anticipation_believer's picture

Black Swan coming

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 02:09 | Link to Comment revenue_anticip...
revenue_anticipation_believer's picture

Speculation whats gonna happen, next...

the Overseas Irish will be of great help here...there will be physical damage to the

networking/computers/microwave/fiberoptics/buildings..and terror to the collaborators...

Civil War in-country...you Protestants in the North, leave NOW!

Sorry Goldman, you just Fucked the wrong people...'sleepers ' all anonymous, connected with essentially unbreakable crypto will spontaneously coordinate, in spy cells...You can shut down your London/New York offices, its over...

Iceland, being somewhat isolated, and not quite on the Agenda for the next midJuly 2011 Bohemian Grove Festivity...has done impermissible...Ireland...thats a No No..'pick your battles; sort of thing...Sorry, CIVIL WAR, against not merely the Northern Protestant Bastards, but ALL OF EUROPE...

I expect THE photos of the 50,000...will be in history books analogous to the July 1914 photos of crowds in every country gleefully cheering/boarding railroad trains...assuming a picnic party, 'all done by Xmas 1914...'

I expect endless volunteer 'sleepers' from Boston/New York Chicago/San Francisco will provide money/weapons/intellignecy activities...

The map, above, means that Goldman London and New York offices will be 'bombed' by 'sleepers' no way to find...and the networks repeatedly attacked, and the workers systematically terrorized..

WAR...Motive, opportunity, and ability the Irish spirit onc

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 11:50 | Link to Comment Cookie
Cookie's picture

You can rely on Celts not to take any crap

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 11:57 | Link to Comment dnarby
dnarby's picture

Looking at those signs, I see mostly along the lines of

"SOCIALIST WORKERS"

and

"PUBLIC SERVICE EXECUTIVE UNION"

Where are the entrepreneurs?  The private businesses?  Did they just pack up and leave the country?

This leaves me to conclude these are a bunch of government workers protesting the fact they aren't going to be able to suck on the public teat much longer.

Socialism works fine in an organization like Mondragon.  Trying to organize a country under Socialism?  Not so much.

Sadly, I don't have a lot of hope for the Irish at this point as too many seem to have drunk the pink Kool-Aide.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 12:02 | Link to Comment Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

I see you have your hat on.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 12:03 | Link to Comment snowball777
snowball777's picture

The entrepreneurs and businesses are located in California; they only use Ireland for tax avoidance schemes and throw the locals a bone once in awhile. Maybe they got held up at their plane transfer at JFK because of the groping.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 12:39 | Link to Comment dnarby
dnarby's picture

(smacks head).

...Silly me!

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 12:51 | Link to Comment breezer1
Sat, 11/27/2010 - 14:07 | Link to Comment snowball777
snowball777's picture

ROTFLMAO (I shouldn't be, mind you, but you have to laugh...or they win)

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 15:00 | Link to Comment Real Estate Geek
Real Estate Geek's picture

No TSA groping when you're flying privately.  Just hop in your G550 & go.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 15:22 | Link to Comment moneymutt
moneymutt's picture

the demonstration was organized by their equivalent of the AFLCIO...hence the union signs...Apparently only the left unions have enough sense to show up and protest the bank's rape of their country, but small and big businesses in Ireland, other the banks, are paying big price also, they will also suffer greatly as their country spends decades paying for banks risky loans...this it not good for anyone in Ireland, except their banks and foreigners only care because Irish banks owe Sweden, German and French banks...My question is why is only a union that has enough sense to protest bank bailouts? Should the business community be irate one business is getting govt favors while the rest with suffer with the general population?

 

but please, it was not unions that killed Ireland, it was promising to back the banks no matter what craziness they did. They need at least 85 billion to bail out banks, make them completely whole. Irelands first austerity cut was 15 billion, very signicant cut of a country the size of Ireland, but it yielded little in the way of deficit reduction due to the fact the economy crashed...so now they are going to cut another 15 billion in govt spending, but even with these two severe cuts, they are still far short of 85 billion. But, yeah, it was the unions that did it.

And remember, Ireland has a very low corporate tax, and they have regressive, high VAT tax that taxes labor way way more than accumlation of wealth...but yeah, its the Irelands unions fault and Irelands fault for being so anti-business, NOT. Freak, its only the unions that have enough sense to stand up against this rape.

 

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 15:43 | Link to Comment GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

You are right on the money mutt, of course. But I wouldn't waste too much time trying to convince the right wing loonies it's not the unions' fault. You'd likely have more luck persuading a doorknob it's a lightbulb.

The banksters don't call them 'useful idiots' for nothing, you know. 

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 15:51 | Link to Comment moneymutt
moneymutt's picture

thanks for the support, but I don't think of most conservatives as idiots, both sides have been influenced to hate something about the other side to keep us divided while corrupt, rich insiders take most of our GDP in return for doing nothing but producing fraud. Dems and liberals too have fallen prey to thinking its all the other sides fault, but shoot, did we get much difference in regards to the banks when all Dems took charge? Clinton signed the deregulation of banks Gramm bill, passed by a Repub congress.  W signed a bank bailout bill pushed heavily by his guy Paulson but passed by Dem Congress.

If the solution was all Repubs or all Dems, things would have been fixed by now...the solution is populist, anti-Wall Street Dems, Repubs, Tea Partiers, Libertarians all getting together and making sure, regardless of how they feel baout unions, war, abortions, Medicare spending...that we do not govt spend on bank bailouts and we do exempt certain insiders from the rule of law. I think we need to unite, so I'd rather not think of US brother conservatives as idiots, I want to unite with them around a common cause, unless of course, they want to tax people to bailout banks and think we should not police banks, that we should not prosecute banks for fraud even when they commit it, then I have to draw the line and agree with you, they might be idiots.

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 23:54 | Link to Comment pods
pods's picture

The only problem in what you wrote is one of execution.  Once any kind of movement starts to gain traction and influence it is either discredited or co-opted.  Look at the tea party.  Grass roots.  Energy.  Then all of a sudden Palin is speaking at events and the Kochs are bankrolling it.  By election time it was the "TEA party wing of the republican party".  Many got angry and left.  At least they no longer were naive in thinking that the process will work.  

The status quo will be protected at all costs.  The only hope is one of a cascading default that destroys the banks that own the earth.  Then maybe we can start anew with the simple rule that anyone that starts to speak of debt-money is dropped from a tall tree by a short rope.

pods

Sat, 11/27/2010 - 16:12 | Link to Comment GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

"Socialism works fine in an organization like Mondragon.  Trying to organize a country under Socialism?  Not so much"

Nyuk, nyuk. See one picture on ZH and you know it all, apparently.

Yah Norway, Sweden, Finland, Germany (socialized medicine/education: possibly the best health care in the entire world too), are all about to collapse because of their political systems, right?

Is it possible that you can truly be that ignorant? Or are you playing a role? For your sake and the sake of those who have to spend time with you, I hope it's the last one.

 Global banking cartel attacks a bunch of nations through corrupting their elected leaders into making investments they knew full well would collapse, taking loans they knew full well they could never repay, then subsequently holding a gun to the head of the countries' economies, and the best you can come up with is: it's the unions' fault? Stupid, stupid, real dumb.

What parts of 'socialized losses' and 'privatized gains' are you having such a hard time comprehending? 'Cause there is your nefarious 'socialism' buddy, the whole "Free for those who can afford it; very expensive for those who can't" meme.

Give your head a shake, or get someone to do it for you; I'm sure you won't have a tough time finding a group of willing volunteers...

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!