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60 Minutes Brings HFT To The Mainstream, As CFTC Refutes HFT Liquidity-Provisioning Argument
Last night on 60 Minutes, Steve Kroft, finally brought mainstream America's attention to the topic that has been the primary scourge of efficient markets over the past 5 years: High Frequency Trading (not to be confused with Signing, aka RoboSigning). In Wall Street: The Speed Traders, Kroft spoke to such advocates of a robot parasite-free as Themis Trading's Joe Saluzzi and (now ex) Senator Ted Kaufman, as well as some other individuals who stand to benefit by computerized feedback loops making a mockery of price discovery, and which have now caused something like ten mini flash crashes in as many days, not counting the Flash Crash itself. Of course, the only defense the HFT lobby continues to use is that it provides liquidity. Which is why, once again falling back to scientific literature, this time a study by Andrei Kirilenko of the CFTC et al (which is also obviously biased as the CFTC, just as the SEC, stand to lose what last credibility they have if it is indeed discovered that it was precisely SEC and CFTC endorsed HFT, and not Waddell and Reed, that was the cause of the Flash Crash, something we refuted flatly last week), which demonstrates just how fallacious any claims that HFTs provide liquidity are. In a word: "HFTs traded over 1,455,000 contracts, accounting for almost a third of total trading volume on that day. Yet, net holdings of HFTs fluctuated around zero so rapidly that they rarely held more than 3,000 contracts long or short on that day." Said otherwise, Liquidity-to-Volume ratio: 0.00206%.
Full 60 Minutes:
And key section from Kirilenko et al say on the topic of HFT liquidity provisioning:
We find that on May 6, the 16 trading accounts that we classify as HFTs traded over 1,455,000 contracts, accounting for almost a third of total trading volume on that day. Yet, net holdings of HFTs fluctuated around zero so rapidly that they rarely held more than 3,000 contracts long or short on that day. Because net holdings of the HFTs were so small relative to the selling pressure from the Fundamental Sellers on May 6, the HFTs could not have prevented the fall in prices without dramatically altering their trading strategies.
We also find that HFTs did not change their trading behavior during the Flash Crash. On the three days prior to May 6, on May 6, as well as specifically during the period when the prices are rapidly going down, the HFTs seem to exhibit the same trading behavior. Namely, HFTs aggressively take liquidity from the market when prices were about to change and actively keep inventories near a target inventory level.During the Flash Crash, the trading behavior of HFTs, appears to have exacerbated the downward move in prices. High Frequency Traders who initially bought contracts from Fundamental Sellers, proceeded to sell contracts and compete for liquidity with Fundamental Sellers. In addition, HFTs appeared to rapidly buy and contracts from one another many times, generating a “hot potato” effect before Opportunistic or Fundamental Buyers were attracted by the rapidly falling prices to step in and take these contracts off the market.
Can we finally move beyond the cheap, overused, and flat out flawed justification that HFT provides liquidity? he correct It does nothing of the sort, and since the operative word here is "churn" all HFTs do is merely concentrate (lack of) liquidity risk to a point where should HFTs decide to step away from the market suddenly and without regulatory recourse, as they did on May 6, the next step is a complete market collapse.
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Was going to submit this to you all. Thanks for posting it.
NASDAQ and the NYSE have failed to protect their franchise. More surprisingly, CME Group has also failed to protect their franchise. No market is well-functioning that drives out participants in such mass numbers. as on May 6th, liquidity will disappear when it is needed most because 'liquidity providers' have been driven out of business by HFT cannibals. most likely, HFTs will cannabilize each other while the rest of us wait patiently on the sidelines to capitalize on 1 or 2 major 'flash crashes' per year.
as for now, continue to 'live to trade another day' until this reaches its ugly conclusion.
NASDAQ and the NYSE have failed to protect their franchise . . .
That's it. Hubris in the context of full regulatory capture got them cocky and thinking they were untouchable. Good old greed, they just couldn't leave a good enough thing alone.
yep. they used to just "sell Levi's" (gain their transaction fees) as speculators rushed in for equity market gold. But the lure of HFT transaction fees paying them much more quickly than 'joe speculator' has now resulted in a total boycott of their exchanges.
speculators have always understood that the markets exist to take our money, not the other way around. but a great trader knows when they are outclassed, and lives to trade another day. 'joe speculator' (i.e., mainstreet) is taking what is left of their ball and going home (and into physical gold).
life will go on. any exchange that protects their franchise from HFT algos will gain new market participants. it will take time, but it will happen.
i see nothing wrong with the greed of the exchanges as it will eventually be punished by market participants like any other greed. There is opportunity here, just not in equities and exchange-traded derivatives outside of a few 'flash crash' occurences per year.
buy gold. protect your right to bear arms. life will go on.
Actually, I'm considering moving to the forex market because of these encroaching problems. I know the HFT's have their hooks in it, but at least the sucker is so huge it isn't as easy to mess with during prime hours.
(Please correct me if I'm making a bad assumption here...)
Also, dealing with a swiss-based bank is probably better than parking funds in this current green toiletpaper nightmare of a system.
The author thinks that there's a difference between "churn" and real "liquidity".
That's funny.
Fancy words meet cold reality.
ROBOT COMPUTERS.
There you have it. Johnny 5 has been pickpocketing the equity market since 1985.
"Honey, these here people on 60 minutes talking 'bout numbers and stuff...what channel is Sunday night football on?...oh, and then I wanna watch that there show where they fix them houses and give 'em to poor folk. I hope they give me something fur nuthing!"
I saw bits of it last night and friend called me this am about it. I told him to get his butt to ZH if he wants to know what is going on. That was old news for ZH, they've been the tip of the spear and all over this for months and months.
New media rules. Old media is just old.
I have forwarded ZH's articles and graphs to my distribution list with some return comments such as "scary". The 60 minutes segment may at least have been watched by more folks thus making them a little more aware as a lot of people just don't read..... But, more frustrating was Krugman on "This week". I can't seem to get the screen to stay together with duct tape any more. Those damn bricks...
Get your ass to...ZeroHedge
Get your ass to...ZeroHedge
bumper sticker.
Translation: 60 Minutes tried but the sheeple are no longer "invested" in equity markets so they don't care.
They should, but they don't because laws, rules, and regulations do not matter to Wall Street or Banksters.
..."brought it to their attention". So the fuck what? They will hear it, they will understand it and they will ignore it. It has always been thus. They're more concerned with the location of a mosque. "yes they deserved to die and I hope they burn in hell".
If you're gonna play @ ZH, you're going to have to step up your game.
No one here gives a fuck about whether or not the general public will ignore the news; they will. But that's not the point. The point is: why is the MSM now reporting on these activities? What signal(s) are they sending?
It is my firm conviction that the power-elite cannot, in any shape, way or form, profit from hyper-inflation. To the contrary, thousands of years of history are replete with warnings of what happens after an inflationary blow-off: productive assets used as security to collateralize loans are repossessed.
The top is in - the power-elite were made whole with $25+ trillion of public funds. There is no more money to be made on the upside, but hammerheading this mofu into the ground will let them acquire assets for micro-pennies on the dollar.
Don't listen to Ben or any other Fed/Wall St lackeys regarding QE - pure BS jaw-boning. The tip off to jump starting the cascade will be achieved by informing the public of 'certain irregularities'. Why was the notary bill vetoed? Why is the mortgage mess going to be allowed to wallow in a morass of endless legal challenges?
All other recent government changes that have occurred around the world have heralded 'austerity'. Austerity means deflation. The most valuable franchise in the world is controlling the $USD reserve status. Millions may die in an attempt to protect this status.
Hyper-inflation is an automatic fail. A deflationary collapse may fail, but it is not rock solid guaranteed like hyper-inflation. The media is just signalling that the grand game is about to get underway.
What signal(s) are they sending
In the context of this story, "The computational machines and networks are an indispensable fact of modern society but they have some growing pains like everything else"
It didn't say, "Electronic record keeping is the pathway to systemic fraud and complete elimination of private property rights"
Its 60 minutes idea of "fair" reporting.
setting up a digital strawman for the next takedown?
Stock market in 2010 = a big fucking game of electronic Hot Potato.
AH so those big machines there 'provide liquidity'...yes its all clear now!
When the mainstream media (MSM), aka the fawning corporate press, get their teeth into an issue, I become very worried. There is little doubt that just as Congress and the regulators have been completely captured, so is the MSM. In fact, the MSM has been playing ball for decades. And I could make a coherent argument its been centuries.
So what's going on here? How are they going to spin this? What straw man are they setting up to take the fall? Who's the patsy in this one? Because that's the sole purpose of the MSM as the appointed spin doctors for the Powers That Be. To pre-condition the public mind and direct public opinion away from the real fire and towards the diversionary blazes they set alight.
it dont make a shit, because the FED has already made it plain they are gonna buy assets with money from thin air till the cows come home. and the stock market continues to soar so WTF...
It was all those pimply-faced Ph.D.'s fault!
Kill the intellectuals!
Burn the Universities!
Rape and Pillage the Dorms!
Death to the Pocket Protectors!
(the only people who can possible thwart or avoid the shit storm.)
Hegel's rules.
***********************
"We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the work is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries." David Rockefeller, founder of the Trilateral Commission, in an address to a meeting of The Trilateral Commission, in June, 1991.
"Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order [referring to the 1991 LA Riot]. Tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond [i.e., an "extraterrestrial" invasion], whether real or *promulgated* [emphasis mine], that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this *scenario*, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World Government." Dr. Henry Kissinger, Bilderberger Conference, Evians, France, 1991
********************
Its through the looking glass, Alice.
What is the source for those quotes?
ah yes, the alien threat.
Start the Twilight Zone theme...UK school children in a UFO drill...
http://www.thewestonmercury.co.uk/content/twm/news/story.aspx?brand=Westonmercury&category=news&tBrand=westonmercury&tCategory=znews&itemid=WeED29%20Sep%202010%2015:39:08:140
Where can I read more about the Bilderberger and Trilateral organizations? Where did you come across these quotes?
lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7K8iQAReXQ
http://www.svpvril.com/nwo.html
take care falling through the looking glass.
It's got Czar written all over it.
Straw
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,867329,00.html
Understand your cynicism, CD. Journalists have let us down tremendously, particularly over the years beginning with the PR/propaganda campaign leading to the invasion of Iraq.
Unlike other professions, however, their educations focused upon digging up and exposing the truth. A lot of them were simply had in the "patriotic" ferver following 911. The vast majority have surely suffered in that knowledge since then.
Sure, many can certainly still be fully silenced by their corporate overlords, but they are an extremely bitter bunch of people who want to do the right thing . . . and many know exactly what it is. The truth (please don't debate me on what that means) is now coming out and somebody's gonna get a Pulitzer followed by a long career of fame and fortune.
Given the risk that somebody else is gonna enjoy the benefits of a story which now appears inevitable to hit the mainstream, it seems likely to me that even a corrupt MSM outlet is now going to run it. From the most cynical perspective, one might view this as the first rat to flee a sinking ship.
I know, just an opinion that can be argued against. We'll see how it turns out.
I've been saying for years that once the powers that be and their lapdog mainstream media can no longer hold back the "truth" the next step in the battle plan is to co-opt the truth, to place themselves front and center in exposing the "truth". This was the original purpose of "60 minutes" and "Night line" etc. Friendly wolves who will only attack the sheep the PTB are willing to expose or sacrifice.
Of course, it will still be selective truth spun in a manner that serves their masters ultimate goals. While this is actually done now on a daily basis and is known as "spin", the degree of "outrageous" truth, meaning exposure of "real" truths colored their way will begin, has begun, to ramp up.
We are already beginning to see this happen. Witness Jesse Ventura and Alex Jones becoming more mainstream. Or Glen Beck on the right. Of course, the "new" muckraking mainstream media will need to find "truth speakers" who are willing to play along. You know, I'll give you air time, but we really need to avoid saying this because there is still plausible deniability to your "truth" so let's just say that and well circle back to this subject at another time.
The NSA/CIA/MIA have this game down to a science. I'm always more interested in what is not said than in what is said.
So you consider Alex Jones and Glenn Beck to be truth-tellers?
There are plenty of populace-nudgers out there, be careful which line you get in.
Nice try.
Nope, I never said that. In fact, my entire comment was about the MSM co-opting "truth" and using people who are willing to play ball as their "truth" mouth pieces. I gave examples of people who are getting media exposure that would not have received it 10 years ago. So what is it exactly that Alex Jones and Glen Beck claim they are giving us? The "truth".
And because what they are saying is so "out their" compared to the packaged "news" Joe sees on a daily basis, it is often accepted as "truth" by Joe. Thus Jones or Beck will serve the purpose of a MSM media out to deceive by co-opting the truth movements. Spin, whether done by Congress or corporations or the FBI/CIS/NSA/MIA, is all about managing perceptions and placement. Propaganda takes many different forms.
I get in no line. I form my own line.
CD, that's just it. Devaluing all sources on the grounds that they are--by definition--inevitably "co-opted" and can, therefore, do nothing meaningfully more than "spin" inevitably leads to being in a line which is solely yours alone.
Not much of a line at that point.
While it makes a good argument, taking this to its extreme would result, imo, in an atomization of the populace which would necessarily lead to a sort of autistic paralysis. Regardless of its intellectual integrity.
Some degree of "compromise" is required for a society to have any real meaning as such. Or, perhaps, rather than compromise I should say prioritizing concerns so that some sort of collective vision and legitmately motivated action remain possible, in either theory or practice.
Now now Bob, those aren't my words nor was I implying that. Who said anything about devaluing all sources because I sure as hell didn't. I always recommend doing your own through research before coming to any conclusions. And that doesn't mean 20 minutes visiting a few web sites followed by talking to your brother-in-law.
When are we going to demand from each other some real accountability? When are we going to raise the bar among ourselves and no longer accept whatever is spoon feed to us as correct or close enough for government work? As far as I'm concerned, the lowest common denominator standard will always produce substandard results.
But wait, it's not PC to say to my neighbor "You need to do your own research and then come to your own conclusions" because then we would be excluding them from the conga line forming in front of Fox and Friends.
Well, let's not worry about PC. And these days I seem to get almost as much propaganda from my liberal friends as I do from Fox and Limbaugh. I agree that we need to tax ourselves with use of multiple sources and forming comprehensive perspectives that encompass the truths found in them all.
No argument there. Totally agree. I'm just worried about taking the distrust too far. It can be disabling. Similarly to the resignation that cynical expectations like "the gov is just gonna buy all the junk and we're gonna get stuck with it."
When those views become popular, the populace is volunteering to be screwed.
You probably get more propaganda from your liberal friends now-a-days because it's their turn to propagandize. At least for a few more weeks that is. So there.
I'm an equal opportunity basher. Fox and Friends, Olbermann, Beck, whatever. There is no more left/right in the mainstream media at this time. What we have on a scale of 1 to 10 is Democrat voices at 4.9 and Republican voices at 5.1.
Or more accurately Democrats at 9.2 and Republicans at 9.4 because they both want to throw my unpatriotic ass in jail after they get done wiretapping my communications, reading my e-mail and trying to frighten me with stories of terrorist under my bed. It's not about the conversation, it's about controlling the conversation.
It's not about the conversation, it's about controlling the conversation.
Absolutely. As a mentor I had in grad school once said, "control the language and you control the discussion." I've never forgotten that.
As for keeping a richly informed intelligent understanding of things these days, it does depend upon not sticking with an exclusive club that shares an inevitably skewed view of the world. It's the reason I'm so grateful for ZH--there's no risk of that happening here! I've never seen such disparate views so well articulated and tolerated. It does wonders for me.
...control the language and you control the discussion...
You need to read about the Whorfian hypothesis, named after Benjamin Whorf.
You would find it fascinating.
Have you ever wondered why Glenn Beck talks incessantly about Adolf Hitler, or mentions eugenics when talking about ObamaCare? He'll spend 30 seconds making a disclaimer that he isn't trying to call Obama another Hitler, yet he'll spend the next 59 minutes connecting all the dots.
Cognition is anchored in language.
Sapir-Whorf has been pretty well demolished in experimental trial.
It sure feels true, though.
Language structures more likely influence perception as a result of emotional self-stimulation than any kind of cognitive feature. Sapir-Whorf hypothesis asserted the existence of a cognitive effect, and that doesn't bear up under proper testing.
The most basic observation will show that people can really pump themselves up emotionally through use of language, though. That's a very robust effect and is probably far more instrumental in influencing human actions than what Sapir/Whorf were speculating about.
I certainly consider Alex Jones as a truth-teller. However, I also find him to be very difficult to listen to because of his hyperbole and occasional outright hysterical rants. But the delivery does not diminish the message.
Beck, on the other hand, is an MSM disinformation outlet.
As CD also says elsewhere here, it is not just what they say that should be critically analysed, but also what they don't say.
My Shill Alarm always goes off the moment any of them mentions UFOs, 2012 prophecies, lizard people, the joos (or the mooslims), or the second coming of some prophet or two. YMMV.
Pay attention to the SUBJECT of what they are talking about, not what they say.
What will be the MSM diversionary blaze that sets up QE2?
60 Minutes = CBS
CBS = WESTINGHOUSE / CBS INC.
Westinghouse Electric Company, part of the Nuclear Utilities Business Group of British Nuclear Fuels (BNFL)
whos #1 on the Board of Directors? None other than:
Frank Carlucci (of the Carlyle Group)
Notable members of the Carlyle Group
G. Allen Andreas - Chairman of the Archer Daniels Midland Company, Carlyle European Advisory Board
Daniel Akerson -Board member at 7 companies, Managing director at Carlyle
Joaquin Avila - former managing director at Lehman Brothers, Managing director at Carlyle
Laurent Beaudoin - CEO of Bombardier (1979-), former member of Carlyle’s Canadian Advisory board
Peter Cornelius - Managing Director of Nielsen Australia.
Paul Desmarais - Chairman of the Power Corporation of Canada, former member of Carlyle’s Canadian Advisory board
David M. Moffett - CEO of Freddie Mac, Former Senior advisor to the Carlyle
Karl Otto Pöhl - former President of the Bundesbank, Former Senior advisor to the Carlyle Group
Olivier Sarkozy (half-brother of Nicolas Sarkozy, President of France) - co-head and managing director of its recently launched global financial services division, since March 2008 [36].
James Baker III, former United States Secretary of State under George H. W. Bush, Staff member under Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush, Carlyle Senior Counselor, served in this capacity from 1993 to 2005.
George H. W. Bush, former U.S. President, Senior Advisor to the Carlyle Asia Advisory Board from April 1998 to October 2003.
George W. Bush, former U.S. President. Was appointed in 1990 to the Board of Directors of one of Carlyle's first acquisitions, an airline food business called Caterair, which Carlyle eventually sold at a loss. Bush left the board in 1992 to run for Governor of Texas.
Frank C. Carlucci, former United States Secretary of Defense from 1987 to 1989; Carlyle Chairman and Chairman Emeritus from 1989 to 2005.
Arthur Levitt, Chairman of the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) under President Bill Clinton, Carlyle Senior Advisor from 2001 to the present
Luis Téllez Kuenzler, Mexican economist, former Secretary of Communications and Transportation under the Felipe Calderón administration and former Secretary of Energy under the Zedillo administration.
Frank McKenna, former Premier of New Brunswick, Canadian Ambassador to the United States between 2005 and 2006 and current Deputee Chairman of Toronto-Dominion Bank; served on Carlyle's Canadian advisory board.
Mack McLarty, Carlyle Group Senior Advisor (from 2003), White House Chief of Staff to President Bill Clinton from 1993 to 1994.
Randal K. Quarles, former Under Secretary of the U.S. Treasury under President George W. Bush, now a Carlyle managing director
HFT WORKS.
HFT WINS.
STOP WHINING.
It's their market. You just trade in it.
Of course "HFTs did not change their trading behavior during the Flash Crash," the interaction of HFT algorithms inevitably leads to flash crashes. When flash crashes come, you just invalidate the trades. What could be the problem? I mean, it's not as if you're ever gonna get a crash that's too big to invalidate, right?
Heheheheh.
HFT-traded Gold to $1700.
+1
these are the facts. HFTs are outcompeting 'locals'. humans are not competing well with HFTs that can absorb one trade in a bid or offer while simultaneously laying that trade off in similar markets. they are mopping the floor with individual 'liquidity providers/speculators'. good for them.
however, as a result, there are less and less daily participants in these markets as the 'day trading' becomes the monopoly of a handful of HFTs. fair enough, i suppose, but the flash crashes, as predicted, will come more frequently.
the rest of us will continue to wait on the sidelines until these flash crashes occur.
no whining here. just living to trade another day!
...and buying gold.
Of course trading in gold will be HFT-dominated in a year or two - if it's not already!
http://www.zerohedge.com/forum/hft-comes-gold-market
I have to say that although I appreciate his bringing the information to the public, I'm not very sympathetic with Saluzzi and Themis. They're basically pickpckets who just got too slow for the game. These days, if you're a short-term trader and you're not co-located, you should just get out of the business. You can't possibly compete with traders who are so fast they can afford to both supply information to as well as harvest information from the market in few milliseconds.
agreed.
i'm not 'trading' gold. i'm accumulating. along with firearms so that nobody attempts to steal it. this is not going to end well, but i do believe life is going to go on for those of us who protect ourselves and our family.
has 'finance' ever been such a large part of an economy?
i really do believe that these are scary times and i do not underestimate what desperate people, especially those at the center of finance in NYC and D.C., will do to keep power.
Wow, I give you good political analysis on a story that could potentially be very big and is completely ignored by the MSM and not 1 comment.
You heard it here first: Portugal's budget will not pass and they'll be forced to come hat in hand to the EFSF/IMF.
"In case no one is watching, I'd like to let the ZH community know that the political situation in Portugal is very tense at the moment. The current government has been in power for over 5 years and is increasingly weak and scandal ridden (check out this youtube video where an english businessman admits to bribing the current PM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nmIcGdlZiM). The increasingly desperate government has a slim majority that is not enough to pass any of the announced austerity measures. Furthermore, there is a massive general strike being planned for early November in a country where over 60% of the population either works for the government or is dependent on government subsidies to survive.
But the real clincher is that the largest opposition party, the PSD, has so far refused to help the govt pass the austerity budget which is due to be voted on the 29th of October.
Without their support (see this article http://dn.sapo.pt/inicio/portugal/interior.aspx?content_id=1682921 in today's Diario de Noticias where the leader of the opposition says he will not vote favorably no matter how much pressure they put on him), the PM has already said he will resign. Throw in the fact that Portugal has presidential elections in early January which means parliament cannot be dissolved until spring 2011 at the earliest, and you have an explosive cocktail that most news outlets are either ignoring or know little about.
This could be the event that gets the default ball rolling again."
thanks for the post. great info.
You're quite welcome.
Glad someone out here actually likes to learn something new.
Count - thanks for the information. Keep us posted.
I shall, although I presume that sooner or later this will become a big story item in the MSM as well. It's not just the Ireland fire burning although that's where the MSM seems more focused.
more americans are irish versus portugese. good for ratings.
Doubtful. No bad news is allowed.
Will Bernanke use the diversionary fires in Ireland and Portugal as an excuse to "fight the debt contagion" with QE2?
Just a thought.
Hunter - Seeker algo's and they just do not care.
On October 30, 1999, The Economist printed a warning that decision-making was being dispersed around global networks of individuals that fall beyond the control of national governments and nothing could be done about it. "Innovation is now so fast and furious that big organizations increasingly look like dinosaurs while wired individuals race past them."
They noticed on 1999
Reality was 1993 for us and our group. Good luck kids.
"Some people may be using computers to manipulate the market!!" NOh - Way!!
Like OMG!!
40 M shares a day traded for a penny profit or less by one small firm (Tradeworx). Says a lot.
Hilarious.
So much money wasted on servers, fiber-optics, leasing space right next to the NYSE data centers, overpaid programmers with foreign accents, etc.
Why not just hire a 17-year old gamer wearing a skullcap who can follow price action instead?
Sell what ever is going down.
Buy what ever is going up.
What is so hard about that?
LOL...
Because after that gamer ripped off the 10^8th old lady they might start feeling bad. And they might read the news and think "I am not doing a good thing for certain segments of society." Where the programs churn on into the night with the core programmers getting turned over as they sour on the ethics of the project.
Let the chickens come home to roost ...
Relentless pressure by ZH, keep squeezing it's working.
I see it as a National Security issue. The Big Banks that Own these HFT Computers could take the Country down the tubes in a day. It gives them the Power to Control the Country and the Government.
Remember when Paulson wanted 700 Billion? He got it as he held the Government and the People Hostage. Either give us 700 Billion or there will be Marshal Law. What about Al Qaeda Hackers?
Dangerous.
Big Banks = Government = Al Qaeda.
All tenticles of the same beast control system.
Although, in general, I like 60 min. and their way of reporting on serious issues like this to the broader public, I have a feeling that this report is a none event and a rather poor attempt to inform Joe Sixpack what the ramifications are of HFT and how it affects the economy.
Other than being a rather questionable liquidity provider it tells nothing about the impact on price discovery (or lack thereof) and how it basically supports the Ponzi.
LMAO
My bet is that this is the 101 piece they throw out to inform and then follow it up with "startling findings of manipulation!"
Next week: MortgageGate 101
You may be surprised, but some of those "Joes"--and particularly "Bubbas"-- learn and communicate, particularly when someone tells them the real deal. What we need are several well placed "this ain't right" type things that show that "this ain't going no place good."
Joe and Bubba are your friend, you just don't know it. And they know how to do the stuff you don't know how to do. Reach out, form alliances....win.
Aside from the great handle, cognitive dissonance shows more and more understanding of what is actually going on.
MSM is just diversionary, and their themes are to condition the masses. Political correctness? a conditioning tool. Ascent of sports, reality shows? Same. Marketing to 20-somethings as being master of your own domain? How? Because they can configure Facebook? Simply idiocy.
Dumbing-down of American numerical and economic educations have achieved most of the goals.
CD raises the best question: Who is the next patsy / fall-guy?
China is too smart, too rich, and has too many reserves. They know they have to solve their problems., and not let their currency appreciate too quickly, to satisfy (who?) their potential competitors? Right. Like that will happen.
Blaise
I'm still trying to figure out how they get the camera all the way up from your ctrotch to your brain along with the toolkit?
To the morons at Zero hedge who keep beating this anti-HFT non-sense drumbeat.
You can't make money just bidding stocks up and making money on rebate. This is absolute drivel. The cost to provide liquidity is always less than the cost to take. This is true for professionals, high frequency traders, and retail investors alike. For example, if you provide liquidiy, you might earn a rebate of 1/5 of a penny, but if you take, it will cost you 2/5 of a penny. Since high frequency traders and other professionals are almost always hedging their trades, the true cost of a trade must account for both the liquidity rebate, AND the cost of removing liquidity on the hedge side of the trade. This is dead simple and obvious to any professional trader. The fact that zero hedge keeps trotting out this horse shit is a clear sign this site is more spin than fact. I actually used to consider this site a source of research. And while I still do value the research posted here by other firms, the actual postings by this site staff are mostly over-spun, non-factual book-talking bullshit. I still read it for the same reasons I watch Cramer, to see what the idiots are thinking.
STFU, you idiot.
there is no hedging in HFT, they don't HOLD positions!
If they do not succeed in capturing an arb, they cancel.
Only morons think HFTs are doing what "traders" do, which is trying to ride some kind of dipshit momo or something.
People are acting like HFT is some kind of quant fucking rocket science. It's NOT. It's H F. The object is to use machines like a 3rd world bazaar vendor and get in front of a real bid or ask (mark), close, and flip for a profit, before any of the other street leeches can.
most of the 60M piece was a lie - there are no mathematical models necessary for this. Speed matters. Whoever can see the order flow and process it the fastest can find mismatches in B/A before the exchange can.
HFT is computerized fucking house flippers.
On a seperate but important note, I think many people confuse HF trading, algo's and flash trading. HF trading is NOT flash trading. I agree flash trading is not fair and should be abolished. HF trading implies a certain time frame of the trade horizon (minutes, to days), algo's are just programs that execute trades, and flash trading is when trader pays to see quotes first. Mind you, payment for order flow is a common practice on Wall Street, has been occurring for years, before the explosion of high frequency trading! These are all independent yet sometimes related concepts. If you want to whine about something whine about payment for order flow which accounts for way more notional traded value across stocks and derivatives which all trade "up-stairs" i.e. off the exchange floor and outside of the realm of HF trading!
some of us are not whining, HH, because we realize that the markets (and exchanges) owe us nothing. however, we do realize when short-term trading is dominated by algo hedging across markets. this is not an environement where most locals can compete. so we do not. the exchange can handle this however they like without our participation. no whining here. just prudent decision-making.
by the way, it is really annoying to hear you rip on Zero Hedge when YOU ARE Zero Hedge. just make your valued contribution to the discussion and QUIT YOUR WHINING. otherwise, do not post or return here for information.
lastly, i appreciate your industry insight, HH. keep up the good work!
Best quote from the Chief Operating Officer of the NYSE: "Most long term investors don't care about pennies, b/c they are in it for the long haul"
Did this guy just ADMIT TO STEALING PENNIES???
YES HE DID. The freakin little semite ADMITTED that his industry is in the business of a CON where they just don't steal so much from any individual that any individual feels victimized.
This is what HFT is built to do, steal pennies tens of millions of times.
Peter Gibbons: [pauses] I don't think I'm explaining this very well.
Joanna: Okay.
Peter Gibbons: Um... the 7-11. You take a penny from the tray, right?
Joanna: From the cripple children?
Peter Gibbons: No that's the jar. I'm talking about the tray. You know the pennies that are for everybody?
Joanna: Oh for everybody. Okay.
Peter Gibbons: Well those are whole pennies, right? I'm just talking about fractions of a penny here. But we do it from a much bigger tray and we do it a couple a million times.
Trav, maybe unfair to Semites who continually get a bad rap due to gangsta Ashkenazim (Turkic folk not Semite) just sayin'
+1 Trav you know your shit, now that you've figured this puzzle out why don't you pick up another.
over time, the logic in the algos will synchronize, so they do the same thing at the same time, like on Flash Crash day. There is no doubt that the programs will all sell at the same time. The algos are 70% of the market and they will run and hide. Equities could go down 25% to 50% in one day. The worst part is, if we try to buy stocks, our trades could be busted - that is the ultimate fraud in the market.
HFT ate the liquidity providers by frontrunning and arbing their algos to take their marketmaker rebates. What used to be a utility-style profit margin to make markets got cannibalized by HFT.
the only reason a HFT bot would buy a stock is if it KNOWS that there is a bid elsewhere for more. In fact, they will monitor the orderflow and buy and sell before your bid can even hit.
They rationalize by saying, the average retail guy doesn't care about a few pennies here or there - this was IN the 60M piece and is an ADMISSION that they are stealing. So, let's run with that. Many scams are in the folklore about people going into bank accounts and chopping off the pennies or fractions of pennies. Nobody at an individual level cares about $.004, right? So it's OK if you steal that from 10M people and route it to your own account?
This is CLEARLY fucking stealing, is a crime, and has been prosecuted.
The notion that HFT works like a daytrader trying to spot "trends" and shit is absurd. These freaking algos have positions with lifespans measured in milliseconds. Their sole purpose is to find somewhere in the order stream where there's a B/A mismatch and get to both sides before anyone else can and capture the delta before NBBO or the exchange can even know it's there. And, if the delta goes away before they can execute, they cancel.
they put up stub quotes and they can yank them down if they see ANYONE trying to hit their bid or ask, before the orders can even be filled. The entire fucking industry is a SCAM OPERATION.
The main pushback the HFT industry gives to material inhibition of this fraud is that "it will be impossible for us to make money."
Hell yes--tell it, brutha!
Dude who are you? Do you actually know the exchange rules? This above post demonstrate a clear lack of understanding of the exhange mechanism itself. If you quote a price to the NYSE, you can't see incoming trades and then choose which one's you trade with, you simply trade if there is an opposing bid or offer at the same or better price. Do you have any securities licenses? This is basic series 7 stuff.
Bid stuffing, have you read about that? From what I understand, you don't need to see the incoming trades, you make an offer, withdraw it in a miliblink of an eye, make a higher offer, and withdraw that until you find where the your "opponents" stops are set. It is not legal, but there is evidence that it happens that has been published here in a couple of posts.
Get your hand off your cock and do some reading Herbie. I say that only because you come barging in here like a loudmouth, ignorant, bastard without a clue (true Trav up there is rude as hell, wish he was not).
Herbie, are you with the SEC?
Herbie, who are YOU?
Herbie has been on ZH for 22 weeks yet this is his only posted comment. Where have you been Herbie? Have you been waiting for just the right time, the perfect comment, to respond to? If so, did Trav provide that perfect comment? Really?
Fucking sleeper agents! Stands to reason.
Bob
Are we back to this again? You really do need to tone down your conspiracy theories. And you seem to be stalking me lately. Why is that Bob?
BTW I thanked you publicly many months ago in one of my articles. But for some reason you disappeared that very same day for a few months. Glad to see you're back hanging around here Bob.
.
LOL! That's genuine grace and wit, CD.
Sorry, I missed it. Got real busy with work, moved cross country, was offline for quite a while.
Thanks, it's good to be back, especially now. The chase is on!
Don't you just love witness relocation? Or are you the sell out?
The sell out??
I'm now the unemployed--doesn't it show?
(btw, my above remark about HH was sincere, good call.)
EDIT: Holy jamolie, I just searched out the article you mentioned citing me in and I was quite touched, actually. One hopes to make a positive difference or at least have some kind of positive impact. Thanks, CD. I appreciate that.
Ms, HH can't be with the SEC since it's common knowledge they surf porn all day during working hours.
Hence the "get your hand off your cock and do some reading" part.
But what about the "Woman of the SEC"?
Oh wait, with just a small modification it'll still work.
"Get your hand off that cock and do some reading."
Life is grand when all the pieces fit, isn't it? :>)
On a completely irrelevant note, I LOVE his album Empyrean Isles and the song Oliloqui Valley. My favorite jazz album and composition. By the one without a "d" in his name, of course.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...
Do you ACTUALLY believe this? Dude, they fucking quote stuff and withdraw them when the order flow shows someone wanting to hit their bid.
You are WAY behind the curve, man.
Look, even if you know NOTHING WHATSOEVER about how trading platforms work, when a company can go FOUR YEARS without a losing day, you have NO CHOICE but to eliminate the impossible and accept the truth: they ARE CHEATING.
And the fucking NYSE DOES NOT CARE because they get a CUT of all of those pennies!
Look at the goddamned flash crash, how the fuck you think that happened unless ALL of the effing "bids" sitting out there were bogus? Individual issues crash with no-bid to .01 all the time within a few milliseconds and back. Legitimate size bidders are WAY below the froth at the surface.
I mean, goddamn, dude, the CHIEF of the NYSE admitted that they are stealing fractional pennies from retail. How do YOU suppose that they manage to do that? It is because they have determined HOW to manipulate illusory price action to do PRECISELY what I claim they can.
You should watch them walk B/A up a few % sometimes and see NO TRADES whatsoever.
As if the SEC care about rules, licenses and shit.. They're more concerned how big the dick is on the tranny porn.
yes, the 'fake quotes' are an easy problem to fix if the exchanges would simply levy penalties for HFT placing excessive bids/offers as a percentage of submitted orders that actually trade.
The fact is that the various exchanges do not yet want to reign in the HFTs because they generate SO MANY transaction fees. These exchanges are publicly traded companies with quarterly earnings to generate and executives seeking short-term bonuses.
this will change only when HFT destroys the exchange and transaction fees begin to fall. I believe this is happening as we speak.
in the meantime, you can find me in physical gold. see you there.
Bingo.
The exchange is IN on the penny stealing; they get a cut of it.
Eventually, this will chase out exchange participants who are tired of getting jewed all day and night out of fraction pennies and they won't do business any longer with them.
Stock exchanges are like 3rd world street markets now. You even go IN THERE with any money and you are going to get divested of it somehow.
trav7777,
I respect the hell out of you as a thinker but GODDAMMIT why be on with the JOOOO stuff? It does not contribute one iota of understanding to our predicament. I read, I cheer you on (I admit it) and then FUUUUUCK! DOOODE is on about da JOOOOOOOS again. It is like coitus interuptus baby, just as I'm gettin' there, ya leave me hanging.
Shall we get woped all day and night? Niggered, crackerd, Mic'ed, Spic'd, towel headed, chinked, gooked, poon jaabed, shit man, I am trying to insult every race I can think of. There are Kikes, Japs, Coons, Phlips, and Honkey Bitches, pissed about this shit too.
Why single out Jews? Takes away from the power and clarity of your message. Makes folks that might listen move on and dismiss you.
for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
Completely relate, Ms!
fair points. if we were talking about Israel and Palestine then Jew/Muslim/Christian talk may be relevant. HFT? - not so much.
Good one:
"Make people feel like this is the place I can trust my retirement savings to."
After the whole system blows up and we start fresh maybe then we can discuss that angle.
How many sheeple watched this episode and said, "How can I get in on that?"
No one admits it, but everyone is selfish.
These hindus "trade" like they "drive". Ever seen a road in mumbai? it explains a lot.
You mean someone is front running me when I trade 100 share blocks of C? I am shocked. Here I did all this reaseach to try and find some fundamental value in this market and someone is riding my coattails. lololololololol
Yep. If you put in a limit bid for 100 shares of C at, what's C worth? $1? If an ask comes in at .9999, some HFT will see it in the order flow, and sell to you, buy from them and pocket the .0001. And do it millions of times.
Complete. Con. Game.
trav
isn't this why they were begging to switch from 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 pricing to pennies? its alot easier to scrape .001 than it is an 1/8.
That should tell everyone right there! WE CANT SCAM if you dont change this! Plus we will make a shit pot more. The Sheeple will never know!
Who knows if that's why?
But, HH up above says that the HFT's can't do that.
sure they can. All they have to do is be faster to the trade than someone else. Nothing says they can't execute ahead of you, even if you have the better ask. Short one, long the other before the exchange's dinosaur computer does it.
How else do they churn tens of millions of shares and only hold a couple of thousand?
If these guys were really only trying to trendspot and then jump into a trade, fine. Let them. NP with that. Let them post their trades into a queue.
But that shit would have some losing days. If a player never loses, he's cheating. Simple as that. They know where the orders are before others do.
I mean, why else build a freaking 10ms faster pipe to Chicago at the cost of hundreds of millions?
obviously, they're just extremely good daily macro-economists. :P
that was a joke people, just like this market.
I tuned in specifically to watch this piece. I especially found it cute to find out how NYSE leases out space to the HFT box owners so their program can cheat those not in such close proximity. I had no idea that was occuring.
Welcome to The Resistance. ZH has been onto co-location and myriad related issues for over a year.
"co-location" serves to destroy market participants. the shortsightedness of the transaction-fee-seeking exchanges is spellbinding. they deserve the protest. they will lose their business from this racket, if they cannot see beyond their next bonuses.
oh well, the market owes us nothing!
Your .00001 cured now, welcome.
I think the end of the interview says it all, “Would you want your 401K invested in the stock market?”
This is what makes me think of my folks and the fact that they’ve lost so much anyway. I asked my mom to pull her 401k in 2006. To this day, I think with the 30% tax haircut she’d still be ahead of where she is now. My parents also watch 60 minutes. This is frightening to them and must be to many other Baby Boomers.
while it's great that the word is getting out, there is also a sense of acceptance and detachment associated when it does in this manner.
when information is disseminated in an easily consumable way, it seems to have a marginal impact by virtue of its medium.
this topic is quite old to anyone who has been paying attention, and the piece almost (symbolically) seems to propel it into the realm of 'OK', and even grandfathered in as part of the system at this point.
What scares me as much as anything about HFT is that no one but the creators of these algos knows what trading protocols they are using. Practically speaking, no one has any way of knowing whether these trades are in compliance with regulations or accepted market practice at any point in time. It is literally a black box market completely beyond the purview of any regulators, market operators, or other market participants. Just as the shadow banking industry went mainstream and brought down the housing market, HFT is shadow trading that will eventually do the same to the securities markets. It is only a matter of time, and it is complete negligence on the part of the regulators and market operators to assume otherwise.
Just think about the fundamentals of the situation. Six guys in an apartment flat can create and implement any trading protocol they dream up completely bypassing market makers or any regulated trading practices. I’m trying to imagine an analogy to this in the drug industry. It would be like allowing some backwater lab to develop, produce, and sell any drug to consumers they can dream up without any trial testing or prior approval by the FDA.
It would be like allowing some backwater lab to develop, produce, and sell any drug to consumers they can dream up without any trial testing or prior approval by the FDA.
The largest pharmaceutical companies in the world are doing just that. FDA rubberstamps some proprietary bullshit biomarker protocol + personalized treatment. Bring Granny into the hospital, useless doc takes tests, pharma prescribes meds with serious cardiotox risks, granny dies suddenly, and no legal recourse.
LUNCHTIME LINKS: it should be possible to earn five times as much at a high frequency trading outfit as at Goldman Sachs
http://news.efinancialcareers.co.uk/newsandviews_item/newsItemId-28783
Poor Goldman's...
He says the market could be manipulated? I've now heard it all. It could, 'could' be manipulated? OMG.
There is no way if I had the billions and the means I would be involved in manipulating the market to get richer and protect my assets. I would have eithics and play fair, and if I lost my money, I wouldn't care ethics are what is important.
In order for there to be no manipulation everyone with billions would need to say this. Do they? Please those of you people sleeping, wake the F up.
If any of you are thinking regulatory bodies or oversight. think again Madoff. There is a perceived belief someone has your back. Nothing could be far from the truth.
What happened to efficient-market hypothesis (EMH), determination of price, distribution of capital, risk analysis, fundamentals, OH and on commodities to smooth and give certainity to the producers of capital. Now I remember it was dereg. so the thugs could move in.
'efficient-market hypothesis (EMH)'
Damn, that's funny!
Wow, was that a blast from my naive past!
Modern day bucket shops. It's not much more complicated than that. The end result is predictable, too.
So it is a bit like rakeback programs in online poker?
No one wants to play at an empty table.
I agree that the speed advantage is unfair, but no different than retail having slower software than the pros. You think milliseconds matter when your on Etrade or some other web based order entry system? Even the direct market access systems will be behind. HFT is no different than the original day trading scalper. In fact it is just the next evolution of that trader. HFT makes that style of trading obsolete to a human. You cannot possibly compete. However, there are plenty of instances during the day where human traders beat the machines to the stock. Short term traders whether HFT or human can only take money from orders with a much longer time frame. It used to be that the volume in the market was quality volume, institutional size. When that is the case it has always been free money for short term traders. Why shouldnt it be? Moving 500 mill is alot harder than moving 5 mill.
But right now the volume in the markets are very short term. Who can make long term bets with the state of the world right now? There is so much uncertainty in Fed actions, soveriegn credit, bank balance sheets and probably soon increased military tension.
Its funny all the uproar about HFT, I saw the same thing with daytrading in the late 90's. It will evolve but do not count on it going away.
How about some uproar at the fact that we are slaves to money, and to the controllers of money? If I had a trillion dollars I would buy one thing: a state of the art nuclear submarine! I would plant myself at the bottom of the ocean and wait for it all to go to shit. (While trading ES of course)
Test post.
Thanks for the footage of the HFT firm located over the Restoration Hardware store.
Interesting to see all these HF traders doing their keyboard thing.
A few were older than I thought, but most were X'ers like myself.
They are the shame of my generation.
~Misstrial
HFT is just the latest scapegoat.
After driving away thousands of market makers with the cost of inane regulations, the only survivors are HFT shops. None of them are willing to go brankrupt to provide you with a bid. If you think providing bids at a loss is so awesome, you do it.
So now, you have HFT or no liquidity at all. Regulators are killing the market by driving out liquidity providers and you guys are busy with your heads up your butts bitching about HFT and dark pools and all kinds of nonsense.
If you are successful in closing down HFT shops (which I doubt - everyone who has ever actually worked in this industry and had a peak at how the regulatory sausage is made and it is made by protecting well-connected insiders from competition and even investigation of outright fraud) you'll just kill a third of the liquidity out there. You can load more obligations on market makers than they currently have, but you'll just end up with less of them or more exemptions. So far, the tack the SEC has taken is more regulatory burden, more obligations, fewer exemptions. Good luck with that.
BTW, I'm not in any way involved with HFT shops. So, the only dog I have in this race is the same one you do - I need liquidity. I need volume.
Dude...HFTs don't provide any liquidity.
The notion that they do is complete bullshit
GS, you are right.
however, i do believe that they have become 'so good' that it has driven individual 'human' locals out of the business on a large scale. WHICH MEANS: only a handful of HFTs need to 'turn off the machines' on any given day (in order to protect themselves) and we will get another 'flashcrash'.
now, as much as I love 'flash crashes', and do very well in them, I do not believe that creating an environment for flash crashes is the best long-term business model for the various exchanges. how they rectify this is, of course, up to them, but folks do not have to trade on their exchange. in fact, the mass exodus continues to occur.
I'm all for HFT kicking ass. good for them. But i do believe it is manipulative to put up mass quantities of bids and offers only to 'get filled' on a tiny percentage. in essence, this creates a 'fake market', and one not truly representative of supply and demand. A simple rule forbidding too many posted orders without taking a position, i believe, would be a good rule and a step in the right direction.
in an ideal market, we would want MOST bids and offers to be genuine. In these markets, it is quite the opposite and, again, it is hurting the long-term survival of these exchanges as it relates to widespread participation.
Most locals are upset because they can no longer compete with HFTs. I personally, just believe the outrageous amount of 'pulled' working orders has made a joke of the markets. I blame the exchanges and largely boycott as it relates to daily transactions. they can, of course, handle this phenomena however they would like. either way, i'll be fine, and continue to take money out of these markets through good 'position' trading.
dupe
You are not alone.
My God! I think Mary Shapiro is a cyborg....
l
HFT--sounds like front-running to me. Just because it is a computer program doing it, doesn't make it any more legal. Front-running is front-running.
The reason they can't find any clear examples of improved liquidity from HFT is because the HFT traders are sucking up the liquidity for their own purposes.
Electronic anything (monitoring, transferring, record keeping, evaluation by algorithms, etc) when applied to human activities is a license to steal. You can't possibly know whats going on because you have traded a paper trail for the phantom benefits of convenience and speed.
CFTC = bent cops
Is there such a thing as criminal negligence by Regulatory bodies where the omission of duty that leads to loss is a negligence, and knowing loss would result from and thus harm, make it criminal?
I would love for somebody to sue the CFTC for squillions.
After all of this on 60 minutes, they said two things. HFT provides liquidity and the flash crash was because of Waddell and Reed in Arkasas or Oklahoma, who's 4 Billion dollar sale of securities "made the super computers" algorithms sell/buy or get out of stuff. It happened at such a speed that no circuit breakers could stop it. But what they don't take in account is that for one liquidity was in the market well before the advent of HFT. And two if 4 Billion dollars in securities (A) was sold, and 4 Billion in securities was bought (Z) then B through Y was the doings of the HFT. It's not wrong to sell a big block of securities it's been done before and will be done in the future. What happened was that the 4 Billion in securities caused a ripple in the markets and once this ripple was detected the HFT computers of many firms started to over compensate and find a way to make money or protect money of their firms. And in so doing acted as a force amplifier to the ripple and turned it into a tsunami wave.
If those HFT computers weren't there, it wouldn't have happened and the market would have done what it does all the time. And that is to register the big block of trades and the stocks being sold would have went down at the start of the day and once bought it would have went back up. All that HFT does is to allow them to see everything at once and what is being bought and sold milliseconds before the rest of the market. Then their computers can do massive amounts of trades or front run before others can make their trades on the new data. But the problem is that other computers in this HFT game are doing the same thing. And so you have a dozen or so super computers in these firms that are fighting with each other using the market as the fighting field.
So you as HFT trading firm sees a bunch of trades for GM for the downside and so you decide to sell before the others bring the stock down 4 or 10 cents. But other HFT firms are seeing the same thing, so they may also be trying to sell and on and on. So these dozen or so firms may have sold at that millisecond more stock and in turn forced the stock to be even lower or unusually lower (short selling or naked short selling). And if you take this along with their mathmatic algorithms to all the stocks, it can be a cascade effect/as I said earlier a force multiplier. If the HFT computers weren't their, this wouldn't have happened pure and simple.
Quant stuff, now I am interested. But, no talk about the underlying fundamentals of speed and settlement. You must stuff wisely, before you transact. Speed is key, but cost (fees) are also a factor. Soon we will see complete sniff of the circuit breakers, end of day run for cover.
Mark Beck
S&P500 Financials index has not been bullish for some time. This is a warning.
http://stockmarket618.wordpress.com/2010/09/27/mon-sept-27
And of course you can stay out of the stock market...
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After driving away thousands of market makers with the cost of inane regulations, the only survivors are HFT shops. None of them are willing to go brankrupt to provide you with a bid. If you think providing bids at a loss is so awesome, you do it.
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