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Airlines Gambling With People's Lives As Royal Air Force Suspends Fighter Jet Flights After Ash Deposits Found In Engine
If you ever needed confirmation that the airline industry is gambling with everyone's lives just so they can stop the profit bleed and resume flight, here is the Telegraph confirming that airspace over Europe is anything but safe: "Flight training on RAF Typhoon jets was ''temporarily suspended'' today after safety inspectors found deposits of ash in one of the fleet's engines." And yes, these are sturdy military jets: we wonder how fragile passenger jets with GE turbofan engines are faring in their flights.
Safety inspectors took the ''precautionary measure'' to check all of the jets based at RAF Coningsby, in Lincolnshire, after findings small deposits, the Ministry of Defence said.
However the Civil Aviation Authority said it was aware of the incident but would not be changing its guidance to airlines because passenger jets had already shown themselves capable of operating in the conditions.
Asked if there had been any ash-related reports from airlines, a CAA spokeswoman said today: "So far we have only a very few reports from airlines and, of these, all related to visual sightings.
"There have been no reports of damage to aircraft."
An MoD spokesman said the RAF was : ''being extra cautious.''
The ash was found on one of the jets which landed at the base yesterday, he said.
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If they continue to fly through that ash a plane is going to crash.
Unlikely. The PPT will just bid them back up.
Touche'
hahahaha
That was quite funny!
Thank you, I actually laughed out for the first time in weeks!!
Airlines, resuming flying, are making rational free market decisions. If a plane goes down, there will, of course, be lawsuits, but they will be defended over a period of many years, and the vast majority settled.
It's just the old "invisible hand" doing its job. Did you expect anything else from Capitalism?
Sounds like a Ford Pinto cost-benefit analysis was done and the airlines ruled in their favor. After all, that's what insurance and the courts are for, right? I wonder what a human life is going for these days? Gotta plug some number into the calculation, don't we?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto
Ah, Pintos . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT0J0rcJTLo
Just fill 'em up with gas and back them into the target! Ka-blam!
Terrorist organisations around the world lowered their flags to half-mast when Ford ceased production...
LOL
ZerOhead, you have a sick, twisted but very unique view of the world. Based upon your supposition, the terrorist starting killing only when we retired the Pinto. Why even bother blowing up the infidels when they were doing a hell of a job themselves. :>)
Overheard......."Damn, the bad news is Ford stopped production of the Pinto. I guess it's back to work for us and an end to the easy paychecks. The good news is they produced them for 10 years so they'll be on the road for a while"
LOL, you sick bastard!
Or TOYOTA?
the engines work great to clean up the ash FROM the sky so we need MORE of them to fly so we can get it all out fast!!
All hell is going to break loose, for the airlines, when the first plane goes down.
Come on Katla, do your thing.
THX - The Audience Is Listening
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3Ybo3n3NOM
People really are cattle and empty seats are rotting bananas.
Tremors still strong:
http://www.chtv.com/ch/cheknews/story.html?id=2937814
Tyler, wasnt it you who, every time the plane banked too sharply
on takeoff or landing, would "pray for a crash or midair collision"?
Besides, thats why they give them oxygen.
Insurance pays three times the normal amount when you die in a plane crash.
Except when it's RyanAir.
I surmise the commercial airlines aren't finding any ash deposits in their engines cuz they are NOT looking for them. They don't want to find a reason to ground their planes, and they have not increased mechanical inspections cuz they don't want to increase expenses. Fly at your own peril.
By next week, those planes now flying through that space will be landing and taking off all over the world, so it isn't just going to be flying over Europe that should be of concern.
That reminds me of the picture I once saw of a Chinese airplane that had duct-taped the jet engine blades together on one of its engines to prevent them from falling out.
Ironically this was during a presentation on the risk analysis of volcano eruptions.
I flew in China (as a passenger that is) back in the early 90s. I encountered planes being 'de-iced' by guys with home made brooms standing on the wings sweeping snow, seats that refused to act as seats and simply flopped backwards, several inches of standing water in the lavatory *in flight*, and of course, the fact that everyone clapped with no sense of irony when you landed.
Those were good times.
Reminds me of a commuter turboprop trip in the eighties, from Moline IL to Lincoln NE. At an intermediate stop, the wings iced up during landing. Once on the ground a pilot got out and removed the ice by whacking on the wings with a wooden wheel chock. That done we took off again. Some passengers looked a little perturbed but nobody said anything.
I've flown a few times in the past couple of years between Shanghai and Beijing on China Eastern and Air China. All flights a lot nicer than flying domestic coach in the US. Everybody got a hot meal which was actually OK, flight attendants were cute and friendly, seating no more cramped, and the planes were newer and cleaner.
I don't doubt your experience. Just saying things have changed a lot, at least on the "glamour" routes.
I've flown from Lijang to Chengdu a couple of years back. Upon the announcement that the plane was ready for boarding, all passengers IMMEDIATELY rushed from the gate to the plane like kids to an ice cream van. My take is, they applied their train experience (first in gets a seat) to flying even though the boarding pass clearly stated a seat number.
My favorite experiences were on Dragon Air in the 90's and early 00's. Wait for the plane to stop at the jetway? Hah! The Taiwanese would be standing up, having collected baggage from overhead compartments, and cuing at the exit door BEFORE WE LANDED! Good times. Good times.
Actually, as a frequent flyer across the pond I can tell you that more often than not the same aircraft (as well as crews) fly the same routes. This will only serve to raise the risk of incident over the next several weeks as the ash build up won't just magically disappear between flights. Maybe there's a business opportunity here, someone could set up one of those $5 carwash centers for jet plane engines. Just be sure you budget enough for maintenance on your filtration system. I wonder if you could even find an aftermarket for clean volcanic ash. There, I just added at least 5% to the DOW, take it to the bank.
On a serious note though, this likely won't end well for an unlucky few souls. I wish everyone the best and to fly at your own peril for the next several months.
http://www.avweb.com/podcast/podcast/AudioPodcast_TomGrindleNASA_Volcani...
A NASA DC-8 (unintentionally) flew through a diffuse volcanic ash cloud generated by an Icelandic volcano 10 years years ago. The aircraft spent less than 10 minutes in the cloud and, upon first inspection, seemed undamaged. It turns out that first looks can be deceiving. AVweb's Glenn Pew talks with Tom Grindle of NASA's Dryden Flight Research Center, who authored a report on the damage.
http://www.avweb.com/pdf/volcanic_ash_cloud_encounter_nasa_grindle.pdf
It tells you what to do in a volcanic ash emergency:
RECOMMENDED PROCEDURE IF VOLCANIC ASH IS ENCOUNTERED
(A summary of procedures as presented in reference 3.)
What to do in an Emergency
Unfortunately, it is not always possible to avoid an ash cloud and if a plane does enter one there are
very specific steps that the flight crew must take in order to increase the chance of making it out of the
dangerous area safely, according to Campbell, 1994:
•
Immediately reduce thrust to idle.
This will lower EGT, which in turn will reduce buildup on
the turbine blades and hot-section components. The volcanic dust can cause rapid erosion and
damage to the internal components of the engines.
•
Autothrottles off
(if engaged). The autothrottles should be turned off to prevent the system from
increasing thrust above idle. Due to the reduced surge margins, limit changes with slow and
smooth thrust-lever movements.
•
Exit volcanic cloud as quickly as possible.
Volcanic ash may extend for several hundred miles.
The shortest distance/time out of the dust may require an immediate, descending 180-degree turn.
Setting climb thrust and attempting to climb above the volcanic cloud is not recommended due to
accelerated engine damage/flameout at high thrust settings.
•
Engine and wing anti-ice on.
All air conditioning packs on.
•
Start the auxiliary power unit (APU), if available.
The APU can be used to power the electrical
system in the event of a multiple-engine power loss.
•
Oxygen mask on and 100%, if required.
•
Ignition on.
For systems with autostart, switch to “on” position.
•
Monitor EGT.
If necessary, shut down and then restart engines to keep from exceeding EGT
limits.
• Close the outflow valves.
•
Do not pull the fire switch
.
• Leave fuel boost pump switches “on” and open cross-feed valves.
• Do not use fuel heat.
•
Engine restart.
If an engine fails to start, try again immediately. Successful engine restart may
not be possible until airspeed and altitude are within the airstart envelope. After the engine starts,
land at the nearest airport.
http://media.share.ovi.com/m1/s/0451/892b9c5a9c6a4dea92c4f167d9e1254a.jpg
WaterWings
Where do you come up with this stuff? You never cease to amaze me. :>)
Ah, I'm glad my hours and hours of surfing are of some use!
It's no different than driving in the winter and suddenly hitting a patch of black ice. Really.
Oh, the fact that it happens in several thousands feet above doesn't mean much. Engines restart once the cloud is cleared and the plane dropped a mile a second for several minutes.
Very much like the feeling when you're hitting black ice at 70 mph. At least in the air you have room to drop and be ok whereas on the road, you're very limited in your options.
Sounds like there could be a lot of jets out of service in a couple weeks (or less) if they are flying through even diffuse ash. Or maybe just in-flight engine failures if the inspections don't catch the turbine stage damage.
Good time to take a ship across the pond.
They probably have quarterly executive profit sharing after all... can't afford to miss the numbers!
And just how do we know it wasn't them damn Iranian terrorists that took the plane down?
Newer commercial planes and military hardware (though much of this isn't based on "new" technology, i.e. DC-8) are probably going to suffer first due to the higher EGTs. Modern turbines have made much of their efficiency gains by increasing EGT, which requires all sorts of exotic blade materials and intra-blade cooling ventilation schemes. The ventilation is going to be their Achilles heel, I don't think borescopes can access these tiny holes without a full teardown.
Stick to the 737s and 747-200 if you have to fly ...
On the bright side, if we were looking for something to boost employment and the economy, a full strip and blade renewal after each commercial flight would really boost GDP. (Right? ;-)
Plus the opportunity for another ticket surcharge.
I am sure the airlines are going to do a full strip and blade renewal after each flight.
How do we know we are not riding on one of these planes in a domestic flight! crap...
Thanks for this link.
Very interesting links. Thanks.
Yes.....we can't fully trust corporations to do what's best for society now can we...eh? Mr. Greenspan? The even sickening part is that these clown corporations are demanding governments to give them "reparations" for lost revenue during the flight hiatus.
lmao love the GE reference.. I feel so much safer
I love this quote "[B]ecause passenger jets had already shown themselves capable of operating in the conditions."
That is until one crashes.
Maybe they are looking for a crash or should I say distraction. By the way how has the MSM handled the N.Korea attack on S.Korea this fine morning? On MSNBC I was treated to Geithner avoiding all questions regarding "Are banks too big?"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/apr/21/airlines-battle-skies
The thing that struck me this weekend while listening to interviews of airline minions pushing for the right to fly was the new sense of time in the internet age. Everyone wanted it to be over in a few days.... Well, mother nature doesn't work that way. Test her at your peril. This ends badly.
+10
Yup no different that our gimme now culture run rampant. Gimme a recovery now. Gimme fast bank profits now (Over leverage)..gimme gimme. Mother nature like homey the clown definetly "dont pay dat"
Heard on NPR last night, engine manufacturers have revised guidelines to allow for more ash tolerance. That should fix it.
Actuallly it seems unlikely that a commercial jet will be brought down just from flying through highly dispersed ash. The more insidious danger is accelerated wear which could cause unexpected failure as engine hours add up. I hope all the airlines are performing, at the minimum, careful visual inspections after each flight leg until more is known about cumulative effects.
Say what you will about the RAF - they're not stupid... Typhoons are expensive... and so are the pilots... Leased Jumbos/Economy class passengers, not so much...
Ash causes all sorts of problems to a plane's body. The problem doesn't stop with just the engines. Front nose glass get's sand blasted to the point of zero visibility.
Watch this:
Multi Part (start at part I) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVI0yLxFdHM
Are people being forced on the planes?
Do they have any way to estimate the risks, any way to know who to believe?
Wow, deja vu -- a variant of subprime debacle arguments.
Yeah, but how can I short a flight I'm not on? Is there a CDS market here?
Best just to go to the departures lounge and randomly ask the passengers if it's OK to take out life insurance policies on them... it's a great way to lever-up... double indemnity in case of accident you know!
The guy who starts that potentially ends up the biggest banker on Wall Street and have a good kick at running for President one day!
Just do what the ambulance chasing guys did. LOL
What are the long term effects of the ash? I'm not worried about the planes right now, I'm worried about the planes 3-6 months from now. Is it just a matter of cleaning it off like a chimney sweeper, or will it cause internal damage to the engines?
Willie Walsh is a asshole of the first order , British Airways should eject him immediately if they want to keep any level of national prestige.
Unfortunetly my country seems to easily produce these airline megalomaniacs and I apologise deeply to the British people for this spawn of Hibernia
Oh, and the airlines were crying about the *mean* regulators not allowing them to fly.
Looks like government was right and private industry was wrong again, gotta love "Acceptable Risk"
I wonder if the low-bypass, high-specific thrust engines of the Typhoon make it more susceptible to aggregating ash in a tinier location?... Combined with no real bottom line and no stakeholders to demand that training continue, why wouldn't you be cautious? You have to have been in a military flying unit to understand how skittish career-oriented decision makers are when faced with zero-upside choices like this. If you push it, you lose your chances for earning that star or eagle or whatever weird RAF rank you get. If you act cautiously, you live to fight another day.
Are the airlines gambling? It could be, but this information is not damning evidence.
A view from Europe: I wonder what your
wonderful novelist-pilot James Salter would rate
this: Hubris !
At least these stupid pilots must have broken
the orders-the higher you fly, the bigger the risk,
but at least did they have something to celebrate, so
maybe were they sent out by 'Gordo' to celebrate:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/7618747/Britain-has-biggest...
Or since the infamous McChrystal was in Germany
yesterday, maybe is he in Londonski begging for troops
One of these airlines has the opportunity to seize 90% of the market share by grounding their flights, and maintaining that it is not safe to fly. While the other airlines will fly for a few weeks, there will be an accident, and their whole fleet will have to have their engines rebuilt, they will be able to step up and fly while everyone else is grounded.
Too bad the airlines are all so used to non-competition that they all just follow the herd. A small company could easily become a dominant player by employing this strategy.
How big this small company is to be actually able to step in and support 90% of the air traffic? In how much time can it become big enough to support the load?
Delusional. Following the herd is part of the competition process. Because the herd has adopted the most competitive approach.
Just like a sportsperson involved in a competition process is bound to adopt use of drugs. Because the herd has adopted drugs and drugs increase their competitiveness.
People flying in Europe are taking extra unneeded risk. That ash is filled with fine metals and glass and it does get into the engines and all the internal components of the aircraft, hydraulics, ventilation system, apu's, ect. As a former A/C mechanic if a plane flys through that or near it, it will need to be overhauled shortly thereafter which is very time consuming and expensive.
According to pilots, it's not so much the danger of flying through the ash but rather the damage it causes to the engine. As one pilot said, there are going to be a lot of new jet engines orders coming along.
bullish for GE, Rolls Royce, and Pratt-Whitney.
Indeed. And this is the Icelands´s contribution to recovery. ;)
Sure, who would possibly think that a damaged engine is a risk to flying?
Stick to writing about the economy i.o. aviation.
Leave that to professional pilots please...
I don't think people understand what this dust does to engines.
The modern jet is more efficient because it works across a higher tempurature difference.
That means they spend a lot of money to keep increasing the internal tempuratures at which the rear fans of the turbine are driven.
You don't wash the dust out afterward. It will have melted on the yellow hot surfaces of the turbine blades as well as stationary parts. That coating is just like enamal fired on jewelry or the outside of a cast iron dutch oven. The size and shape of the turbine blades are critical to efficiency. having a glassy glaze does not improve them.
The critical point is this - the glass will build up ACCUMALATIVELY.
If I were going to fly in the ash I'd fly as early as possible before a plane has had time to build up many layers of ash on the blades. If a chunk of that glass breaks off under thermal stresses when starting up a cold engine that will be the end of that engine too. Pretty much any solid debris will kill an engine. I remember seeing a plane on a carrier run it's engine up to speed - just then a deck-hand lost control of his clipboard he was carrying past and it got sucked in the engine. There was a brief - RUUMPFFF!!! - and half million bucks of yellow hot turbine blades made an unplanned fireworks display as they were blown in a cloud out over the ocean. The engines run right on the knife edge of failure for hot strength and balance. That's why even a goose will strip one out.
The airlines may kill themselves by ruining many many engines even if they don't kill any passengers.
Airlines are only concerned about profits and care not for the traveling public. This volcanic ash event should show the world that profits come before safety and this has been the case for some time now.
As I former airline pilot "15 year veteran" I can tell you this industry has really gone down the drain and standards are really dropping as far as pilots are concerned. I have witnessed wages drop over these years to a level that is so bad, new pilots cannot and will not make the sacrifice required to break into this industry. I've been trying to tell people for years how bad it's getting but no one believes me, thankfully Michael Mores new movie "Capitalism a Love Story" brings this dirty little aviation secret into the light.
In this movie Michael More interviews pilots who are paid so badly that they must rely on food stamps to get by. So what happens when their employers find out about this situation, attempt to pay them more, Oh NO? The airline sends a memo out to all pilots saying that if we find out your using food stamps you will be fired. Just lovely, the humanity and compassion just blows me away. Instead of paying their pilots a decent wage so they don't require food stamps instead they threaten to fire them.
One female pilot being interviewed who flies for a regional airline in the USA is paid 17,000 $USD per annum, I know kitchen hands who are paid more than that! In only one other case I have seen this subject in the major news channels. One interviewer talks to pilots flying 737 for regional operators in the USA and these guys are all living in camper vans in a car park located at the end of the runway at LAX. On Camera when asked why this is the case they explain that as captains they are paid so badly they can not afford to rent in any of the nicer areas of LA and housing is so expensive that their families live in other states where the cost of living is cheaper and they drive home on their days off to see the family.
The latest sickening trend i'm seeing can be viewed at the airline internet site called PPRUNE at http://www.pprune.org. Things are getting so bad and in the name of profits airline executives are becoming so greedy. That they are now hiring new pilots with no experience just out of flight school and making them pay the airline to sit in the cockpit right hand seat as a first officer, let me explain. These pilots are not getting paid but instead they are paying the airline??????????
This practice is called P2F or "Paying To Fly".
Under normal circumstances airlines both major and regionals hire pilots from either the military or from general aviation with many years of flying experience. They start airline life as a first officer and are paid a first officer wage and over the years work their way up to being a captains.
Under the new system pilots just out of flight school with no experience are employed by the airline as first officers and pay the airline to sit in the right hand seat next to the captain in order to gain flying experience. So the airline is making a profit from these newly hired pilots. The pilots are paying to go to work for the airlines and in turn make money for these companies. It is the most bizzare thing I have seen yet and lets now cover the safety issues. but before we do look at one pilots view on this topic taken from PPRUNE.
P2F Cancer of Aviation (merged)/ petitions. What is up with this trend in the industry. Every other advertisement on PPRuNe and or Flight, is about P2F?I hope this is not the legacy those of us retiring are leaving behind us. Then again it seems that it is the 40 somethings who are managing most Flight Ops posts around the industry (Bonus Culture)?
Wake up and fight back.... It is not worth it. It is the new cancer of aviation The reason you have 2 pilots is a for fail safe reasons. In the event one is no longer able to fly the aircraft the other is able to land safely. If the traveling public new about this they would be horrified. Can you imagine a situation where the captain falls ill and can not pilot the plain and all passengers are relying on a guy just out of flight school with no experience to land. And to make matters worst if you also throw in a mechanical failure so that the young pup has to deal with multiple issues, well I think you get the picture. So next time you fly feel safe knowing the airline industry is going the same way as most other industries, down the drain in a heaving mess. Cheers
If a plane goes down, it would not surprise me if a few airline execs got murdered.
What a nightmare for travelers. Could you imagine reading this report, being stuck in Europe and the only way to get home is to fly? Wow. If I was in that position you would have to load me full of alcohol and sedatives to get me on one of those planes.
There are other ways to get home. For starters, there is still scheduled passenger ship service between the UK and US. You could also choose flights that stay far away from the ash cloud. How about Paris to St. Maarten, St. Maarten to Miami, Miami to home?
Yeah, 36 hours of flying is a blast, paying for Boingo in every airport you sit in for 4 hours to have some connection to the outside TSA world, after you take your train from X country to paris.
All that for the low low low price of $2500/pp
There is zero risk. Unless you decide to fly into the crater. This volcano hype is ballon boy, and toyota, all over again.
You're all missing the point, regardless of safety, Obamanation will be able to swoop in and bail everyone out at 30,000 ft.
If anything, one would expect high-performance fighter engines to be skittish beasts, more sensitive than commercial-aviation workhorses, no? Besides, anything named Eurofighter obviously has to be doomed to fall apart in the current conditions. :P I'll bet you one thing: various rogue states have spent the past week wondering what it would take to pump large volumes of ash into the atmosphere on demand.
"If x is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one"
So what is the alternative?
Seriously? Putting P&O ships back on to transport passengers from Europe to North America?
The airlines are taking a risk each and every time any of their flights take off.
The risk is increased by particles from this ash cloud as well as any other debris floating in the air that IS causing damages to the engine.
Grounding the traffic for so many days was irresponsible. It was a reflection of bad and overreaching bureaucracy.
When you step on a plane, you have to think that it could be your last trip. In fact, when ou leave your house you have to think that way. More people will die this year from a car crash, train accident, boating accident whatever than people will die in a plane crash.
End of story.
I guess the best time to "bomb a country into the stone age" with your high altitude bombers is when that countries fighters can't reach you without flying through an ash cloud that will shut down their jets mid-flight.
It's funny, the ash cloud/s did nothing to disrupt the war games (including at least one aircraft carrier and its aircraft) from being conducted in the Baltic Sea.
http://www.brahmand.com/news/NATO-countries-begin-Brilliant-Mariner-naval-exercise/3645/1/10.html
Makes sense now that there are reports of fighter jets showing buildup on the engines. There was a higher than normal flight activity during the time the volcano blew the most ash. Also, the Baltic Sea is in a zone which was affected more than other areas from the blow due to winds etc.
Government is using the story of military plane engine problems due to ash in order to avoid paying for the utter and complete bureaucratic inefficiency.
Some here may disagree and all of sudden think that the bureaucrats are collectively smarter than the corporate counterparts. Is not true. In the end they are what they are. It's government - stupid.
Terrorism - scare / Patriot Act = more government intrusion
H1N1 scare and more government intrusion
Ash cloud - scare and more government intrusion tba shortly
Make no mistake where the train is headed.
Government is growing.
I want to give people a heads up that I've had several pre cognitive dreams of lots of flyings things in the air crashing while things above in the sky are exposed during repetitive red skies at night dreams while I am looking at them crashing like it was some sort of an action computer game.
I also thought it was a joke of a dream like others except for the fact that I've dreamed stock quotes ahead of time that have come true to the T years ahead or sometimes weeks ahead( too bad I only made small bets on my dreams)( the weird thing is I dreamed the redesigned ETRADE HTML+ code years ahead of the time the websites were redesigned.
I finally figured it out. I usually dream ahead the future time where I have little to no sleep for extended periods of time.
In early 2006, I dreamed of watching things exploding over and over again and in July of 2006, Israel vs Hizbulla happened and because of watching the constant destruction instead of sleeping, that was the reason why I was wondering in my dream why I was so numb in watching destruction over and over instead of being mad as hell at seeing the combustion of people and planet.
Moral of the tale: I recently dreamed of running through places frantically and then hearing about the Palace of Auburn hills sports complex having collapsed in Detroit. I've never been there except on a flight stop. I thought it was weird when I woke up with heart palpatations in middle of the night. The first thing I thought of was Earthquake since I recently also had several dreams of watching buildings collapsing over and over again.
A couple of hours later I found out about the Chile Earthquake.
Proof of precog stock quote dreams ala Russell Targ:
http://ragingbull.quote.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=IPLY&read=2509
http://ragingbull.quote.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=IPLY&read=527&submit=Go
go to nasdaq.com and check out the chart from Nov 2006 and come on back.
Question is: Does this mean I have the ability to front run Goldman's front runners if I do a study and have people wake me up after going into REM state and later depriving me of sleep? Will that make me the king of the front runners?
Legally, I do not think this counts as insider trading since I would have no insider info whatsover. Price is not an insider info.
fUny1.blogspot.com
Fly with only one or two engines once you reach the ash clowd sort. of a backup if you will. Also from what i understand is the other planes restarted once they got below the clouds;so cant they just fly under them. Seems also a lot of fuel has been saved so oil should drop alot . oh but wait if it does then we wont have the money to bail out the airlines again