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Al Jazeera Explains What A Fukushima Meltdown Would Look Like
Following explosions in at least two reactor cores at Japan's Fukushima
nuclear power plant - and as the developing crisis is rated at level 6
of seven levels on the International Nuclear Events Scale (previously being 3, or below 3 Mile Island status, to keep the panic level low)- attention is
turning to just what is happening inside the 40-year-old power plant in
north-east Japan. Al Jazeera's Dan Nolan explains how a meltdown would happen.
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Looks like they should 'pull' (WTC7 style) the steel-paneled top of #4 to allow access from helicopter-lifted water dumpers ...
/sarc on the 'WTC7 style' part ...
I would hate to be that pilot! "Man this job really sucks..."
Maybe they can rig an old Sikorsky for remote pilotage (like the Airbus A/C that flew into the WTC and Pentagon buildings ...)
/sarc on the remote pilotage WTC part
Where's Mike Rowe?
Drop in Mike Rowe? I'm game ...
Get the GE engineers, the Kan's, the Obama's, the Clinton's, the Cheney's and the Bush's to visit Fukushima and enter the hot tub with used-up nuclear fuel. Then fly in CNN and FOX journalists for the interview from the hot tub. They will tell us that nuclear energy is safe and everything is under control. Let them bleed from their Pinocchio noses... and don't invite Charlie Sheen and his two girlfriends. I almost forgot: Make sure the Gaddafi's are all invited to the hot-tub party.
Dont mind us glowing green, its a small side affect, completely normal
It's unfortunate that GE (the parent company of NBC) has removed all free versions of the old SNL skit The Pepsi Syndrome.
Let me oblige. See avatar.
I would hate to be that pilot! "Man this job really sucks..."
I hear Ben is good at flying helicopters. And he knows how to dump stuff out of it.
This may be completly off the wall so therefore anybody with expertise may question this but could all those stored rods in reactor 4 (20 years of use ) initiate a fission nuclear reaction if left to overheat ?
Not off the wall at all; report from one of my financial newsletters (Chris Laird's Prudent Squirrel) stated the following this a.m.:
"Reports out that one of the pools which store used fuel rods is burning at Fukishima reactors. Each reactor uses something like 60 fuel rods and the pools are storing years of used rods which, get this, if they are exposed to air only, they catch fire. There are thousands of used fuel rods for each reactor, and can you believe this, they stored the rods OVER the reactors, so when the complexes blew, they were blown in the air and scattered. Authorities say unknown amount of radiation being released into atmosphere."
~Misstrial
This is one of the best overall pictures of what is going on. I know, it's th edaily mail in the UK, but this is really well done from an overall situation perspective.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1366308/Japan-earthquake-tsunami-Meltdown-3rd-reactor-blast-hits-nuclear-plant.html
ORI
so when the complexes blew
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So - they blew? No ... I don't think so ... the bldgs still stand ... want pics?
Well, 3/4 of the structures are up, the concrete portion that holds the Fuel pool of the GE MArk I design. The steel panels surrounding the concrete top floor blew off #1, and #3, pus #3 seems to have lost a few brick wall 'windows' (nonstructural fill-in areas) between the structurally supporting pillars ..
Like this pic CD embedded in this thread:
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/fukushima-explosion-update-core-presume...
Yes but I doubt there is enough heat to drive a uncontrolled fission reaction - I hope.
First I have to apologize for my too determined optimism; what I posted what correct as far as it went; but I didn't bother to look up a diagram of the reactor. The continued reportage about fuel rods stored in the building next to the top of the reactor sounded crazy; but when I found the construction diagram I was amazed to see that this was true. It is possible that this mass could become self-sustaining if it melts into a blob. The last time I looked at a reactor schematic the cool down pond was outside the building. Apparently this makes it cheaper and easier to handle fuel element changes. This design was protested by an industry group of engineers to the NRC, but they ignored the request for regulation. This is a design that absolutely ignores the possibilities inherent in partial failure scenarios; it is inherently un-safe; I don't see how all these cooling ponds which are integral parts of the concrete building can be water-tight and kept full of water after the building has essentially been demolished around them. It's usually the right thing to do to just say to people, who want to mention Chernobyl; "oh, don't be silly". Unfortunately this crazy structure they have here; or structures; can fail very badly. We just have to wait and see. I find it absolutely amazing that anyone got approval to build this disastrous structure; or that the customers bought it. It has no credibility to withstand the kinds of damage it has sustained and not produce serious radiological consequences. We need to be lucky, now. Thanks to GE and the NRC.
Per MSNBC Japan Gov't is asking for just that.
I'll tell you why they want to do it but aren't sure to do it (the removing of the panels). Since they know that Hydrogen is being release (reason to remove the panels), they don't want to be up there when in the process of removing them a spark happens or more oxygen is introduced from the outside and a explosion happens anyway. You have to remember Hydrogen is a ver very explosive gas, even where I work the fuel gas that we use is a mixture of other gases and a percentage of hydrogen. And what they will be seeing in the building is pure hydrogen building up to an event.
medium is the message
all I see is a black screen
The problem with nuclear reactors is not the science but the fact that they are so expensive. Where there is high cost, there is cutting corners and corruption. I wouldn't be half surprised to learn that that is the real issue with these Japanese reactors. Follow the money. Who got paid off when. I sure hope the Japanese pursue this aspect of the problem when the dust finally settles. I'm sure the shredders are overheating as I write this.
I agree cutting costs and public apathy - out of side out of mind let them do it and f course when companies are chasing the almighty dollar or Yen profit margins rule - stock holders rule - we all know that :(
The problem with nuclear reactors is not the science but the fact that they are so expensive. Where there is high cost, there is cutting corners and corruption.
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Follow-on designs of the GE BWR designs moved on to passive protection systems and away from active systems like used here ... passive meaning NO pumps or electrical needed after a shut-down.
The technical stuff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_Water_Reactor
Right; Junk the technical posts you few narrow-minded b*st*rds!
I love it!
lol! what an interesting way to spell fuktards, too!
after trolling with tea and sympathy all day with only a sporadic mole whacking, they are now beside their shitheaded asswipe selves. imagine! Goldie Lox being expected to get viable info from Al Jizz!!!
good thing you weren't sarking! {yes, i know! that's sark-o-banana-grama, BiCHeZ!}
Never underestimate the maturity and intelligence of ZH posters.
Of course there is corruption. Power corrupts - especially nuclear power and oil power!
The fact that the reactors are still safe and secure (according to the politicians and the IAEA - who are clearly all liars and part of "the conspiracy") is frustrating.
You would think that a Geiger counter would expose them but the engineers who built them are probably on the take as well. Grrr! One day we will expose all the lies.
IAEA will say everything is safe. If they don't, they're out of a job.
All those 100's of health and safety Laws, regulations and micro-managing by Govts of private bsuinesses around the World... and who fucks up the most? ...yep, Government
The biggest safety issue was siting the bloody things in tsunami zones
but agree with posters above entirely on the expense leading to cost cutting and also the usual crony State regulators turning a blind eye
Govt fails again. Regulation fails again. The biggest problem (again) in society is that toilet called "democratic Government"
I think you underestimate the problems with nuclear power. As I see it the problems are:
1. The fuel must be cooled constantly, not only when in use but also after use. Meaning for decades. This substantially widens the risk window.
2. The unusable byproducts are toxic for millenia.
3. When something goes wrong the potential for damage to life and property is huge. Millions of people can die and thousands of square miles of property may be rendered unusable for hundreds of years.
4. Only humans can fix problems when things go wrong, and humans make mistakes.
Think about what will happen to all the nuclear plants and nuclear waste when industrial civilization falls. Who will maintain the toxic waste? One thousand years from now will our descendants live around it, not knowing what it is?
TPOG
What descendants?
The green scaly ones that mutated...
I'm sorry...Just gallows humour..
Hard to laugh anymore..
Lots of prayers in order for all..
I think TPOG meant the roaches and Keith Richards when he wrote of our "descendants".
I think you underestimate the problems with nuclear power. As I see it the problems are:
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Can you now state the issues with coal - from pouring millions of pounds combustion products into the air to the mining ops? Or, is that my job?
Yes, some of us would like to know what your job is here on ZH considering you've only been here for about 3 weeks yet you seem to be a self proclaimed expert on a slew of subjects. We breathlessly wait.
considering you've only been here for about 3 weeks
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Lurked for over a year ... duh!
(No disrespect intended)
Ppl *do* lurk you know ...
cognitive diZ---i resemble that slew remark!
another year of therapy and you'll have this Ident 7777 steaming turd realizing s/he's a fuking shitheaded asswipe troll!!!
mom! pass the fuking popcorn!
Why lurk, when you can troll?
As you pro nuke creatures profess spew of how great this adventure for energy is, please move as close to any of these plants as you can. Make us reassured. Otherwise shut the fuck up.
As you pro nuke creatures profess spew
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Quick, look - a greenie (above)^
You guys make it so easy to abuse you when you begin that way, it's like an invitation to return in kind!
dup. But, I'll take this opportunity to say 'no more an expert than many others', including you, CD.
Who do you think 'makes things work' outside your own 'domain'? Me, and thousands upon thouscands of others not too unlike me ... in industry ... I am but one more in that number ...
Might have been your first junk ;-)
The UI for ZH does take a bit of practice.
disclaimer - live for 3 weeks, lurked for about a year.
Best site on the web, privileged to be able to post, IMHO.
BTW, CD - a personal attack for a low ZH lifetime seems beneath you in your self-appointed role.
Hear hear - just wanted to be able to particapate too ...
It's one thing to come in and test the waters, express yourself clearly and without rancor and be respectful of others until you have built a reputation. It's another entirely to become a swinging dick. Everyone uses the excuse "this is fight club" yet no one takes it any further, that the purpose of fight club was to build community, not to destroy each other.
Maybe it's time for everyone to actually read (or re-read) "Fight Club" and only then watch the movie. There is so much more to it than just bad ass fist fights going on. Much more.
all I got from fight club was brad pitts abs.. and hawt greasy man on man stuff!!! HAWT I SAY HAWT!!! not.
as for the new people sucker punching people, trying to get a feel for the place.. it is what it always has been..
A loud minority does not by default rule the majority. But it can abuse it into submission or silence. The mistake most people here in the comment section of ZH make is to assume the comment section is ZH. By my estimates the people who actually comment on ZH are less than 20% of the people who actually read ZH. We just think we rule the roost because we crap all over the place and then live in it.
But I guess saying that since it has always been this way, thus it should remain this way, is modern day thinking writ large.
Give the line a rest, CD, and tell me why GM is up.
The opportunity to take market share from the Japanese car companies if their manufacturing and component plants are down more than a week. What the average GM investor isn't thinking about right now is how many components for GM cars come from northern Japan sub contractors that also feed Toyota/Nissan etc and are the main reason for their shutdown.
Radiation drifting around Northern Japan for months on end can kill your production schedule.
thats cool. ZH has many stories about "channel stuffing". They already have about 2 years worth of usless shit sitting around. BUT, who is going to pay the union thugs?
CD, seems to me that the foreign auto makers were required to use 80% domestic content on vehicles made in the US...could there not be some opportunities for domestic parts suppliers to catch up the slack if the situation overseas becomes a long-term supply problem...or am I really just trying too hard to find something positive, since I make my living off of JIT?
isn't that the truth. I will go as far as to say, based on just my observation, if the loud minority is well connected - it's by default.
One would have to say that all is proceeding according to plan...
LOL :)
i guess it's time to admit i wuz dead wrong about that really nice guy being a troll, eh mr _Beale? ~~~~/;-)
Lol, I think you mistake me for someone who believes that coal is a better answer to our energy problems than nuclear. I know the problems, but if you would like to expound on them feel free.
At the most basic level the cause of our problems are a combination of too much population and too much industrial civilization. Our only salvation as a species is to wind both of them down.
Perhaps the worst thing we have done as humans is the so-called "Green Revolution" which has allowed us to go into deep overshoot with our population. It was with good intentions, but you know what they say about that road to hell...
TPOG
Indeed, the Green Revolution was the breath that inflated the bubble.
Sorry, I just like to see both sides ... coal is dirty, in a different way from nuclear.
Well, don't rely on "them" to reduce the faceless population of useless eaters. Think globally and act locally. I'll praise your martyrdom to your convictions.
Nice knowing ya.
There is no reason to act offensively on this knowledge. It will come apart on its own. We are in it now. Defensive action is what is called for.
When you make wine you do not need to do anything to reduce the population of yeast after the fermentation is complete. The yeast's own pollution (alcohol) takes care of the problem.
Ecosystems are ultimately self-limiting. Humanity is only different in terms of scale and collateral damage.
TPOG
on Tue, 03/15/2011 - 11:45
#1055870
I think you underestimate the problems with nuclear power. As I see it the problems are:
- - - - - - - - - -
Can you now state the issues with coal - from pouring millions of pounds combustion products into the air to the mining ops? Or, is that my job?
**************************************************************
Unless you are going to take the time to share, something other than your idiot fucking mouth... dont share, becuase no one needs another fucking mouth piece here.
so, let me do the job you were talking about doing then? http://www.gigatonthrowdown.org/
Unless you are going to take the time to share, something other than your idiot fucking mouth... dont share,
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Now, immediately, in this post?
Or, overall in the aggregate, on the site as a whole?
How do you mean (MUST each post by a 3 wk noob be accompanied by a substantive knowledge dump ... don't make me explain this to you in 5 yr old verbiage) ... since I have indeed 'shared', further up thread (maybe you missed it, as you junked it) as well as other threads.
Do I have to go into details, list each specific contribution to date?
You've been here awhile, I shouldn't have to inform you as to how 'dialog' is conducted but, maybe a refresher course is in order.
Going forward: Failure to comply with some level of civility (TBD) will result in your simply being ignored ... just a friendly FYI ...'k?
Failure to comply with some level of civility (TBD) will result in your simply being ignored ... just a friendly FYI ...'k?
Hahahahaaaaaa!
Just too damn funny.
Priceless.
ORI
I'm glad you like it; I strive for a really dry humor ...
I junked you for being a douchebag.
Not to mention I find it rather suspicious that you claim to have lurked here for ??? but are stupid enough to be threatening JW to "be civil" or you'll ignore him?
BWAHAHAHA hahaha ha. HA! ha. HA!
Yoou get dumbest post of the day.
I junked you for being a douchebag.
Yoou get dumbest post of the day.
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Thanks on behalf of whomever you junked, but, was that dialog involving you? Or, you stopped by just to show how smart you were (with respect to the rest of us mortals)?
Either way, thanks, we appreciate your attention; it means you read some of the material and at some later point in time, maybe in a dream, you'll realize what it all meant ...
I mostly just figured that since you waltzed in the door, pissed all over the rug, and acted like you owned the fucking place you'd appreciate some feedback.
And if you want "private" dialog, perhaps you should find a site with better PMming features.
Oh. And you're still a douche.
A few things every investor should know about Japan: blog post http://bit.ly/dOWfho
Out of all the reactors in the world I would think the ones "made in Japan " are probably very good, if not the best .
Yeah, but these reactors were imagineered by GE.
...bringing good things to life!
"...bringing good things to life!"
And everywhere you go, you glow.
totally agree, some problems are complete design failures (like we thought we had all this covered but it wasn't) and usually its lack of proper design due to greed, falsifying results, lowering standards to save money etc. So its no lack of foresight or imagination, its money.
Also, public sentiment. If everyone in society is afraid of something, even the greedy guys tend to be safer than if people not conscious of problem. That is why Germans have been inflation hawks for several generations - Weimar made them very conscious.
If an accident like this had happened in US 10 years ago, TEPCO, Japanese govt regulators, and Japanese people would all be more vigilant.
I think about industry leaders in oil business. They fought regs like mad, but they might have been better off to convince whole industry to clean up their act because look what BP did to them, and we are more beholden to oil than nukes. And if you are a safely run business and you pay big costs to do that and your competitor cheats...you get killed...so regulations done right can be a good thing...saves industry from self-immolating and protect economic viability of those who do things right because those that don't get busted in a few years rather than running amok for 30 years before inevitable disaster happens.
"private profits public losses." Sound familiar? Only governments can "insure" such "marvels" now. Clearly the government folk have more than their hands full given the attacks from the "employers" of "financial weapons of mass destruction" let alone fighting an actual war on terror that appears suddenly very weak and tenuous. I must say the actual "Wall Street cheers" are clearly beyond disgusting in here. Where is your outrage Yoko Ono?
Very useful thanks
Al Jazeera explaining the most basic concept of a meltdown = credible
MIT guy explaining a meltdown in detail, along with containment features = not credible
I see.
AJ = Hilliary Clinton approved
He wasn't credible because he was wrong. So wrong he probably killed people under the vast weight of his incompetence.
Care to explain? I'll wait. What was he wrong about?
The point is not that he was wrong, but given his credentials, he should have considered all possibilities and not just a linear analysis, before he came out with assurances. The events unfolding in Japan, 9.0 earthquake, 30 feet Tsunamis and all three emergency coolant systems going down at the same time are all statistically out there beyond the zone of unpredictability.
Before one gives absolute assurance, especially when it concerns human lives, hubris must be avoided. Given you are from MIT and people will pay attention to what you say, make sure you have thought of all possible scenarios, rather than analyzing textbook material before you give out assurances. IB
Yet the fact remains that events are playing out, so far, exactly how he described them.
The beginning stages of a meltdown have taken place, pressure is being released [albeit in a volatile manner], and that release is what's causing the radiation. It's not a substantial amount, and nothing comapared to a Chernobyl like event... which is what many here are claiming this to be.
I agree you should never give 100% assurance from afar. However, if you read what he wrote he says more than once that a meltdown including a breach of final containment is possible, just very unlikely. That scenario remains true and unchanged.
He said there is no reason to worry. It's in the title.
Wrong yet?
It is not more 'rational' and 'educated' to discount failure modes until you hit them. It is stupid.
You realize the rods in a nuclear power plant are different from the nuclear fuel used in weapons, right?
Nobody has answered why they think the third containment system will fail to hold in the core. That's what I'm looking for, not some "He's saying it's unlikely the worst case scenario plays out, but there's still a chance! So he's stupid!" argument.
shouldn't we assume the worst when dealing with nuclear energy in the first place? of course "it could be no different than eating a banana." Was that a joke? I don't know what's scarier--people saying these things who are being serious or are joking? Any case "never enough truth when you reactors are exploding live on TV"--yes, yes?
The worst case scenario is that the containment systems fail, and of course the state should be preparing for that. The MIT guy did not comment on what the state should do, he commented on the containment systems, and why they are unlikely to fail under the assumption that they're in working order etc. So I don't understand your question, or comment, or whatever.
Spent fuel rods stored in water tanks on the roof over the reactors. Water boiling away in some of them and others probably blown all over the place and burning in the open air and releasing "unknown amounts of radioactivity" is one answer.
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/304677
He was wrong when he assumed you could read.
Clever.
Clever.
More than you deserve at this point.
I believe Primary Containment on #2 has already been breached. They may manage to prevent total meltdown with continuous immersion in sea water, but if they do not, stand the fuck by.
Worrisome that the used fuel rods in storage tanks have boiled away their coolant. These are poor reactor and storage system designs which require a constant supply of coolant circulated by electrically powered pumps. Sheer stupidity. Did they not have a single "worst case scenario" tabletop before approval of these designs? Fucktards.
"Did they not have a single "worst case scenario" tabletop before approval of these designs?"
Ignoring these kinds of scenarios is a great way to cut costs without anyone being the wiser; until a catastrophe occurs. Oops.
Perhaps you don't see Nobid.
MIT has no real credibility. They have been at the heart of the "Science is Glorious" storyline, hero-worshipped for contributing little of meaning to society. They have always been a DARPA/CIA funded place for geeks to get off on their own twisted brilliance.
Perhaps you are blinded by the light.
We live in an invereted world of doublespeak, lies and manipulation. In fact, you reek of a disinfo artist yourself, not the rationalist you are attempting to project.
Even so called in-animate things, thought-forms, memes, all have a life and a cycle.
This is the last hurrah of the nuclear age. Get used to it. petroleum, fission, explosion, ravage, burst, containment, explosive.....
It's a toxic system choking on it's own excess. As it was bound to.
ow if only CERN goes dark, nuclear is shut down globally, people drop consumption of power by 30-40% across the board, starting with the US of A and it's egregious, obese, gluttonous ways, we may have a graceful transition.
Else, boom!
ORI
http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com/2011/03/11/axis-trembles/
Sorry but replying to me like that is a waste of time. Dainty words don't substitute for facts.
Interesting that you call them dainty, because they sure seem to get some heckles up, given some of the posts below. But that's kind of daintly put yourself.
First off, MIT man was wrong, dead wrong on his call. Right about 180 degrees off. So, shoudl the rest of his thesis be considered worthy of...consideration?
As the responder above said, he applied linear thinking to an assymetric situation.
Second, nuclear energy is flat out poison. There never has been and never will be a place to safely store nuclear waste. i'm sure you've heard of depleted uranium warheads. They were a solution to nuclear waste. Does that give you a sense of the factual basis of teh deep, endemic sickness of the scientific mind? So well embodied at MIT? Sure the facts are good. They work. DU is hard. very hard. especialy on about 200,000 vets who were called deranged and denied benefits because DU poisoning just did not gell with the facts? Convenient facts. Twisted facts.
Can you deny the fact that governments lie and have always lied and are never good for the "people"? We'll have to write a whole history book of facts to substantiate that, but I'm sure you are familiar with the terms psy-ops and disinformation.
Was the babies stabbed in their incubators in kuwait a fact you believed? Did the later expose of the truth behind that fact make you change your mind?
What facts? Facts of science? The same science that said aspertame is good for you? Olestra, slim on?
Which source do you trust for your facts?
We've all been fed a pack of lies, dis-information and pure conditioning. Flouride in yrou water is good for your teeth. iodine in your salt is good for your thyroid. I'm sure you must believe those facts since there are reams of 'studies" proving them.
Sorry, you're either a kool aid drinker or just drunk on facts. One way or the other, you will see th elight.
As for the rest of you junking clowns, team america and mr. 1^10*30000, I suggest you return to your bunker and nurse your weapons, stroke your hatred and wait for the MAN to come knocking, so you can can go out cowering in a blaze of glory.
ORI
Second, nuclear energy is flat out poison.
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So's coal. What's your point?
I suggest you google one Viktor Schauberger. Only if you care to see an alternative, nto prove your point.
nuclear is poison, coal is poison, all these black deaths are poison.
Viable alternatives were derailed. Consistently by vested interests. If you do not know/believe that, thsi conversation is over.
ORI
I suggest you google one Viktor Schauberger.
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Typical; you have no real answer so you pass me off to do a Google seach.
Fail.
Thank you, ORI ... and ethanol is plain STUPID.
Yeah I wish we could power our economy on fairy burps and unicorn farts, too.
It's "daintily," and saying he was wrong does not prove him so, regardless of your fondness for using others' similarly empty words [linear application, assymetric problem].
As for the rest of your neurotic rant: another waste of time.
Yes, spelling error in a 20 line response to your one liner. Seriously, rant? DU poisoning is a rant? Aspertame poisoning is a rant? flouride in your water is a rant?
Perhaps you have no knowledge or answer. All good, I have nothing to prove to you anyways. I thought we were having a dialouge, is all.
ORI
You went off topic into extreme tangents that did not apply, at all, to the discussion at hand which was: Prove MIT boy wrong.
As I said before, the excess pressure needs to be released and because controls are down that is resulting in explosions and the dispersement of radiation. This is not to be confused with the type of radiation that exposing the core would unleash. Many are confusing the two. There is no uncontained meltdown, though a meltdown there very well may be. All this fits with MIT boys analysis, if you read it. So how is this wrong?
Jut trying to find the truth. Did you guys see the huge mushroom cloud explosion? 3000-6000 feet into the air....then the overhead picture where the building is completely gone?
How can this be characterized as a mere "pressure realease"?...then whole facility was blown sky high...it also is a plutonium fuel mox plant...that is many times worse than Chernobyl. kidding yourself if you think it isn't a complete and total meltdown of at LEAST 1 of the 6 reactors.
Did you catch/see some sort of material came back down (referring to #3 explosion) - it seemed to come from the cloud - from the what looked like maybe the bottom of the cloud area and came back down quite rapidly while the remainder of the cloud continued up ...
Nuclear meltdowns create a lot of pressure.
yes I saw the heavier material fall right back down. That was just the heavy steam after they shut off the release valve on the steam vents. Just standard normal release valve stuff that happens to look like a gigantic explosion with megatons of force. Luckily no meltdown has ocurred, don't worry GE will tell you when things get bad, just watch NBC news.
You realize that the core in a nuclear power plant is different than the nuclear fuel in a weapon right?
yes I do.
I also realize that the huge explosion was not just a" release of steam". It blew the building completely apart and lots of fuel rods were being stored up there. I also realize that GE owned "news" stations don't seem to explain their designs for these plants were not good.
"Megatons of force"??? You have no idea what you are talking about.
"now SUCK MY DICK." You forgot that one....
It is interesting that you rant against science when science is no more than an attempt to understand the universe in a way that does not require faith. Science is the shining light that has led us from the dark ages.
I think what you really want to rant against is the improper application of science. Your targets should be the industrialists, who are happy to use the knowledge of science to their own evil gains, eventually leading us back into the dark ages.
Some scientists are industrialists, true, but don't confuse the development of scientific knowledge with the improper and evil application of same.
TPOG
I understand your point sir. But consider that science as applied in the everyday world is the most powerful faith there is. It enables and encourages the masses to ignore the insanity they live within because they have "faith" science will pull their ass out of the very fire science has helped create.
Strictly speaking "science" itself isn't to blame because in it's pure form it's a discipline. It's the everyday application and veneration of science that I see as a major problem. It's an argument similar to guns. The gun doesn't kill people, people kill people using guns. Same with science. Science doesn't kill people, people kill or harm people using applications derived by science.
This summary doesn't do justice to either side of the argument.
: 1,$s/science/religion/g
[esc]
[shift] ZZ
I understand your point sir. But consider that science as applied in the everyday world is the most powerful faith there is.
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There goes the concept of "The Immutable laws of science"
Enter Karl Popper: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/popper/#ImmLawConTre
" An additional mistake which he detects in historicism is the failure of the historicist to distinguish between scientific laws and trends, which is also frequently accompanied by a simple logical fallacy. "
Sufficient enough content? Make your thought known - vote below if I fall short (junk)!
This is bullshit. It takes FAITH to believe in the THEORIES extrapolated from science. Every bit as much as religion IMO. Science has explained much, but not as much as people give it credit for.
I have "faith" in neither science or religion when it comes to the big questions.
Science has done far more for huamanity that idiot religions (which is all of them) ever did. At least with science, there is an independent way to test hypotheses. I suppose you don't trust mathematics, either?
Actually, I'm a Mechanical Engineer and design machinery. That doesn't mean I believe that humans mutated from apes or some invisible guy willed it to be.. Smartass..
Science takes a degree of faith because much is theorized from what is known and provable. It's that simple.. So you fucks that want to twist my words, because you cannot comprehend their meaning without getting upset like a fatass 10 year old that just dropped his ice cream cone, go right ahead.. It's a free country.. For now..
THAT is bullshit. You know nothing about science, and misunderstand the word "theory".
Science absolutely does not rely on faith; either a thing is provable or it is not, and the search for proof is what the scientific method is all about.
it would appear the "science" of "lying and obfuscation" however can disprove any reality no matter how chemically realized. indeed "perhaps we need only call it a theory"?
I'd say it is more about making useful predictions through theories (even if they actually completely miss the real explanation), which also must be falsable. Scientific theories offer a possible explanation and, above all, predict things. Predictions must be checked. If they are wrong, then scientists must come with another theory which explains what they already know plus the observed divergences.
In no way science tries to explain how things really are, that is impossible to know. The only thing science tries to do is to offer a useful explanation. Sadly, people often get confused about the real intentions of science. I think even scientists sometimes do, also. So actualy, science is rather humble in its objective.
I think the science community is far from humble. It is in a state of constant revision. Be one of those looking to revise consensus prior to approval from the community and you will be scorned. You will find humble opinions to be few are far between.
It's important to differentiate between basic science (observation of nature, hypothesis testing) and applied science (open to corporate special interests, military uses). There is nothing about 'faith' in basic science, it is neutral observation of nature. Period. Scientists are constantly humbled when they think they know an answer. Ideally, they test a question and let the answer lead them to the next question. They publish results under the scrutiny of peer-review, a brutally honest process.
Applied science, on the other hand, has been just as prone to abuse as any state-corporate entity in this day and age.
I'm pretty sure iodized salt prevented a lot of goiters. The rest, well, I dunno. MIT has always been a hotbed for the military/industrial clowns. I get tired of all research having military applications first and foremost. It is not the way to run a civilization.
So get busy with your return to the hunter-gatherer paradigm and take your Luddite anti-science bullshit with you. Here you are using a computer to post via the internet and using all that technology to decry science...hypocritical idiot.
+1 * 10^9
Science is a good thing. Blind application of science - science for science's sake is not. Look at history. Science from the enlightenment to 1914 = good. Since then?
Medical science since 1914 = extremely good.
Information science (computers) = unbelievably good.
Add communications (hey, like the DARPA-invented internet we're using right now) and transporation (flying is just awesome!) etc., etc., etc.
Exactly what has "science" done since 1914 that upsets you so? Given the date you've chosen, I assume it has something to do with weapons...but is that the fault of science or of humanity itself?
1914 = the start of WWI and the realization that science was going to be used by men to efficiently kill their fellow men.
I'm not sure how you separate science from the people who use it.
Best example you could give us is demonstrating that YOU are cutting your consumption of electricity by some % by turning off your computer.
Well, I have not had a refrigerator or AC for 2 years now, though I can well afford both. i see that as balance.
Plus, who the fuck are you to tell me what to do or not do?
Or any of the rest of you telling me or anyoen else who riles up your petty mind to go away?
Go on, if you have half a mind, understand the basis of thsi forum and can string together something meaningful, besides knee jerk ad-homenim attacking.
Say somethign original. Say why "you", not some pid for MSM shill, believes everythign is dandy? Do you even knwo Japan? I do, worked, visited and lived there over ap eriod of 5 years.
Are you even educated? or just knwo enough English to lash out?
You are internet scum, I suggest you take a good hard look at the mirror.
Dimwit. Just like your racist twaddle hero Trav7777^6*10000 bajillion.
Right? or is that Gajillion?
ORI
Whoa ... someone touched a sore spot ...
From disagreeing without basis to weird neurotic tangents to outright insults...
And he would like to be taken seriously.
I think you're correct, a very sore spot - which was it d'ya think? Did someone mention porn to him? Or has he proved that he's a rather un-original Indian.
I'm in the process of replying to his crappy slapdown - but I'm cooking at the same time - so it's a bit tricky.
Oh! I know what it was - suggesting he turn his comp off and save us all.
ORI - that hit the spot didn't it? Calling you to practice what you preach..
Chill, ORI. Trying to teach the brain-dead is a fools errand.
Interesting timing Cossack. I was just thinking, such a waste of energy, this getting angry business.
Thanks.
ORI
ORI--yer gettin ass-fuked by no less than 3 trolls, here dude. sorry i couldn't be more help here. i've been e-chatting with the KY cheerleader who sends me bible verses and my face looks like a virtual glazed donut!
much like your ass.
Sloo ie you ass rat. You little swinging pecker, this the best you can do for a friend?
Now I'm going to go all GI hurdie gurdie eff ing postal, no wait, newclear on their azzes.
ORI
I didn't 'tell' you to do anything, I just made a suggestion that many here might find apropos.
I wouldn't dream of forcing my views down your colonial throat since I know that you are so full of your own sense of judgmental self-righteousness, that it would have no effect (other than to give a few onlookers a laugh) on you or your deluded mindset.
You come here and spam your blogsite, slag off scientific thought as though it's a malignent disease, without for a moment proposing any coherent form of alternative to a technological civilization that has the remotest chance of supporting 7 billion peeps in a dwindling resource base.
Your periodic wordgames are vaguely entertaining but mostly in a puerile, twee sort of way.
Am I educated? Yes I am - to post-graduate level as a Chemist. English is my mother tongue.
The rest of your bitchy little rant isn't worthy of further comment other than to make it clear that Trav7777 isn't a hero of mine - but he talks a lot more sense (and less mysticism) than you ever do.
Oh - and you need remedial education in mathematics.
My other website, proposing an alternative to this whole tecnological mess: http://squareandc.net
not that you'll visit, but just so you know, some of us have righteous anger against the scientific establishment (of which I was a part, especially as Director Of Technology in the US for a Fortune 50 conglomerate that made everything from helicopters to fuel cells to elevators to jet engines and then some and incidentally a masters degree from Renssellaer Ploytech, a premier engineering school, personally instructed by nobel prize-winners, no less)). I was deeply embedded in the scientific paradigm till my mystic side was shown to me in the glorious hills north of the GG bridge.
All I am "spewing" back at you comes from intimate knowledge both of the American mind-set and the scientific mind-set.
Incidentally, that same mind-set has poisoned India (by the way, I was born into a colonized country, that makes me colonized, not colonial), so my rage is against the system. Since you are so deeply embedded in it, I don't blame your limited point of view.
Perhaps a walk on the wild side would do you some good.
And make you sound less bitchy and more like a man.
Grow a pair, you need them to step outside of conditioned boundaries.
And what pray is twee? Just curious. Sounds like something a chick might say.
ORI
I visited your other website last summer and was suitably unimpressed by the lack of substance and more espescially by the cop-out proviso that your proposed "solution" would "Have to remain secret for the time being" (pardon me if I don't quote you exactly, but I think that covers the semantic substance of your "solution")
How you come over is like this:
You had a top flight education in enginering, had some sort of epiphany and sold out to Sufism to such a degree that you are now avowedly anti-science to a pathological degree.
If that's how you want to live your life, it's fine by me! If you want to believe in some imaginary deity, be your own guest! Go to it! Satisfy the cravings of your inner being's spirit.. it's even written into the constitution....
"Walk on the wild side," "Grow a pair" - well, now you're showing your 'intimate knowledge of the American mindset'. Read my post again to see what I think is twee.
I suspect that your dislike of things Science may have more to do with a dislike of how scientific discoveries and tech developments can be subverted by manipulative individuals (and corporations) for less benign and ethical purposes, usually for their enrichment.
Well here's a newsflash that your overinflated intellect seems to have missed:
Ever was it thus. Right from the first stone axe or bamboo spear right up to sustainable nuclear fission and beyond.
Since you were "born into a colonized country" which was later given its independence, rather than being born into a country which subsequently became colonized (at which point you would have indeed become 'colonized') - so you are in fact an ex-colonial after all.
(I doubt that your super-sized intellect needs remedial English tutoring as well but let me know if you do as I can put you intouch with an excellent retiree)
bite me†
marked as junk
velobabe, marked as ______________ (fill in the blank*)
* TBD later
Why thankyou velobabe !! how touching!
Perhaps next time you can spell my handle properly.
(double post)
Do you think we could get those talking puppies to do it like the dialog with "the Bernank"? That would take a highly complicated and tenuous situation and dumb it down enought to make it entertaining for the masses.
If it doesn't fit the site agenda then the source is "part of the conspiracy".
I'm beginning to understand how this blog works now!
Really? As people are starting to evacuate Tokyo fleeing the worst nuclear disaster since Chernobyl, you make fun of the people mocking the person who said "I have a fancy degree from MIT, there is nothing to be worried about." At exactly what point do the people saying they have everything under control lose credibility?
No. I'm mocking those people who suppose that every authority or anyone who is in authority is either corrupt or working with a secret agenda and so should not be trusted.
What disaster? The media's overreaction to something they don't understand creates fear in the same way a real disaster does. So the public's reaction is the same in both cases.
He didn't say "I have a fancy degree from MIT, there is nothing to be worried about." He said, and I summarise, "this is how a nuclear reactor works let's examine the facts that we have."
Geiger counters are objective. They have no agenda. When the Geiger counters start disagreeing with the people saying they have everything under control then we know there a problem.
Excellent point. Now we know there is a problem. Exactly.
Last I checked the Geiger read 28, which is not all that abnormal and certainly not unsafe.
Are you talking about the one up your ass, or the one on site at Fukushima #2 that hit 318 micro-Sieverts/hour this morning? You're quite the trollish little idiot aren't you?
Oh, I guess that wasn't obvious.
I was talking about the one that was headlining this very site at the time.
Anything else?