Analyzing The Economic Conditions Needed For Persistently "Exceptionally" Low Rates

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Thu, 11/05/2009 - 10:55 | 120761 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Does anyone else get the feeling this has nothing to do with improving the "economy" and everything to do with improving corporate profits? I read something last night that applies where ever I look.

False hopes bind us to impossible situations.

As long as we can convince ourselves through false hope that the intolorable conditions we're experiencing will lessen or change, we won't expend the energy needed to throw out the old and bring in new systems, procedures and processes, be it governmental or social order.

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 14:35 | 121043 Unscarred
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Does anyone else get the feeling this has nothing to do with improving the "economy" and everything to do with improving corporate profits?

CD, that is a GREAT perspective.  The stated objectives of the Fed are: 1) low inflation, and 2) full employment.  If firms will not hire until they have incentive to do so (in this assumption, loss of potential profits in a profitable marketplace by not increasing production capacity), would the Fed consider an attempt to manipulate corporate earnings such as to improve the labor markets?

It's a compelling thought...

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 15:20 | 121119 Cognitive Dissonance
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"would the Fed consider an attempt to manipulate corporate earnings such as to improve the labor markets?"

Absolutely they would, just as various administrations in the past have used false flag attacks and other engineered "events" to change public opinion about any number of things (entering or escalating wars, changing the social compact, clamping down on dissidents etc.) that just so happen to get the economy moving again.

One only needs to do some in depth reading about deep politics to see that many things which appear innocent on the surface have numerous unseen layers.

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 16:17 | 121202 Unscarred
Unscarred's picture

I suppose the question itself was rhetorical...

We should all presume, then, that the eventual movement towards greater Federal Reserve oversight by Congress will be nothing more than a window dressing, as well.

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 10:58 | 120762 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Krugman presented a case to keep rates at zero for six years on his blog. I have stopped reading it after that. The silliness exhibited by even respected economists vis a vis the Fed's reaction function is mind boggling. They have admitted that asset prices are in their reaction function (or course, only on the down side). Think of the number and kind of bubbles coming our way. I am giddy with anticipation (and depressed thinking of the consequences).

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 10:58 | 120763 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

The advantage to a liquidity bubble is it's a known entity - there isn't a single bank that doesn't know how to lever up and sell momentum to clients. A policy of return to status quo (even as the underyling continues to deteriorate) is a reason to get more deeply involved in bank equities. The collapse trade, conversely, is a total mystery to brokers who know how to sell a stock to a client but have no real ability or incentive to sell selling.

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 12:17 | 120833 Cognitive Dissonance
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The collapse trade, conversely, is a total mystery to brokers who know how to sell a stock to a client but have no real ability or incentive to sell selling.

Not only that but the average retail customer doesn't understand the concept of shorting a stock to make money. In fact, many think it is unpatriotic and anti American to sell stocks short. That it hurts the country to sell short.

The average person thinks that when a stock goes down in price, the company is directly hurt and has less money to use or the "lost" stock value comes directly from the company. If the stock price drops by $2, many think the $2 comes from the company or at least its balance sheet. Remember that the average person thinks money/currency is "real".

They don't understand that once the stock is issued, it trades in the secondary market and while the fortunes of the company do eventually effect the stock price, it's not a direct connection in either direction. At least not in the way they think.

That may sound crazy to readers of ZH but the average person is woefully ignorant about the basics of money, capitalism and capital markets.

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 11:10 | 120771 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

anyone with stable cpi inflation expectations is a moron....cpi inflation has been vigorous this year and will accelerate next....i don't care what fool and deliberately deceitful numbers you use, we are in the midst of accelerating cpi inflation headed toward hyperinflation....the road to zimbabwe cuts through argentina...

not only is the cpi headed to the moon but the economy is not growing - contrary the god-dammned lies of the illuminist governmnet - but it is stagnating and shrinking...this was all planned and deliberate....

the sales of gold to india and china is direct proof that the illuminists have annointed those two countries as the new seats of global power and why the door to china was opened by nixon in 1971 at the time that he took amerika off the gold standard in obediance to the plutocracy....

shit doesn't just happens by plan and decree.....until bankster-illuminist bodies are strewn in the street you can expect more of the same....

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 11:14 | 120773 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Out of curiosity (it was discussed yesterday) what school of economics or thought does Tyler, Washington, ect come from.... Many on here suggested Austrian Economics (like Paul, Schiff, ) I just get the impression everything on here is written from a libertarian economic standpoint in a way. People like who have followed this have seemed to have gotten everything right

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 11:14 | 120774 Assetman
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The thing I find surprising is that there is still a whole bunch of "expanded balance sheet stuff" as part of out lovely QE 1.0 that needs to be unwound, as well as some of the loan programs, like TALF.

I just cannot imagine the U.S. will gravitate away from ZIRP at least until the Fed's balance sheet gets back to normalization.  And despite what we may have heard recently, even that will take longer than most expect.

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 11:24 | 120781 SWRichmond
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Gold likes persistently exceptionally low rates.

BTW, gold is money:

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 11:25 | 120783 Sqworl
Sqworl's picture

Its all about the take taxpayer money at Zero and lend to them at 33.1%...

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 11:47 | 120797 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Exactly except you missed Refi's at 9.23% by the same scum scamming mortgage creeps that did'em the first time for 5.2% !

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 11:28 | 120787 Steak
Steak's picture

So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.

The author of that quote rhymes with guess who...reading goldman deciphering fedspeak falls into the category of knowing your enemy, which is why i read this post despite my animus for both said parties.

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 11:32 | 120789 Screwball
Screwball's picture

This is all just depressing.  We are so screwed.

CNBC just reported (I didn't catch it all) some new government plan to allow homeowners to pay rent to the bank until they can refiance, or somthing along those lines.  This would be for current homeowners only, and not to flippers.  My details might be off a little as I only caught a little of it.

At the end of the day, I have to believe it is good for the banks.  Imagine that!

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 11:38 | 120791 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

The Japanese did this when Japan Inc closed in on them. Then the roof fell on them ... decades later the rubble remains.

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 11:48 | 120799 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

So... it seems that the "correction" of the stock market of the last weeks was, indeed, just another manipulated bear trap... Today/tomorrow (with the unemployment report and the reaction to it) will be important to confirm/reject that this is the case. As of now (1043am) the S&P is into the uppermost channel of the "rally", and for the first time since the "correction" started the SPY is building an upward trend longer than intraday (lasting four days including today until now) and with a couple of channels.


Thu, 11/05/2009 - 11:49 | 120800 RockyR
RockyR's picture

well, at least bubbles are fun.  this time around, i'm buying luxury cars and livin large.  can't beat em?  join em.

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 11:52 | 120802 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

it's all about homes, and how much money in taxes can be generated, if you don't save there pricing power, all is doomed, the problem is oil, at 85 bucks the consumer is wary, over a hundred and all budgets are f'cd, total lunacy all around

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 11:55 | 120803 Sqworl
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Goldman Sachs job opening...only government employees apply:

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 11:56 | 120805 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Ive become curious about Tylers views on economics just because he (along with others) has such conflicting views on stimulus, bailouts, gov intervention… so on so forth. To me he along with others like Schiff, Roubini are the few who saw this coming…. why is that ? Is he part of the school of Austrian economics or what.

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 12:00 | 120809 RockyR
RockyR's picture

i walked into a ford dealership for the first time in 10 years last night (had 20 minutes to kill before a meeting).  all I saw were $40k FORDS!  now, if that's not inflation I don't know what is...


Thu, 11/05/2009 - 12:09 | 120821 Sqworl
Sqworl's picture

40K to be Found On Road Dead????

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 12:16 | 120832 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Speaking of inflation, has anybody gotten a speeding ticket recently? I got a ticket for rolling through a stop sign in South Florida...


Thu, 11/05/2009 - 13:31 | 120850 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

From where I sit, you got off cheap. In my state, moving violations are $400 and up. Some states charge even more.

States learned the pros many years ago. Charge what the market will bare, not what the item is worth. Since they hold the gun, the "market" will bare a lot.

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 14:39 | 121056 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

it has nothing to do with inflation or safety
(since i bet the state failed to make a case
about what safety was threatened by the speeding)
but has everything to do with totalitarianism...
not even anything to do with revenue raising....

if you stupid enough to pay fines for speeding
you are stupid enough to obey any pavolovian

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 15:27 | 121130 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Fair enough. How do you propose one deal with a situation where the state has fined you and will jail you if you do not comply? Don't get me wrong, I agree with your premise. Read some of my many posts.

But unless and until enough people draw the line and say "no more" you will simply suffer in jail for your rebellion against totalitarianism. 

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 12:29 | 120847 mtguy
mtguy's picture

While bracing for inflation, given the Fed actions, we do have to ask the question of when? Yes, oil is at roughly $80, whereas it ws at $35 earlier in the year, but remember, it was $147 last year. Inflation or deflation? Depends on your time-frame. Given capcity utilization and the rising unemployment,(and thus little if any upward pressure on wages) it is hard to see that inflation is biting our heals currently. Add to that the fact that velocity of money is ziltch, b/c our beloved banks aren't lending and I think inflation is a ways off, (my humble opinion).

If I put on my tin foil hat I might also add that this socialistic/(marxist?) administration wants the economy to tank, it favors deflation continuing. Remember, they (S/M's) want us to be dependent on big gov't.

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 12:47 | 120861 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

lol, ticket, same exact story, in my head i thought oh 70-80, forgot too pay it, i was looking at a grand cause i couldn't find my insurance card, showed up in court, out for 300 and have too take defensive driving,

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 13:27 | 120924 mtguy
mtguy's picture

See, the "greenies" are right -get out of that car and ride your bike! lol

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 14:23 | 121027 Unscarred
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"...low rates of resource utilization, subdued inflation trends, and stable inflation expectations..."

I think that part of this "Fed-Speak" translates to how bad they believe the CRE crash is going to be.  Keeping rates at zero offers the steepest yield curve posible for banks to help build additional loss reserves to survive the soon-to-be-released Depression 2.0.

Thu, 11/05/2009 - 16:35 | 121227 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

I've learned that the only reference I should use when parsing Fed speak is the Rosetta Stone. Still effective after all these years. :>)

Fri, 11/06/2009 - 00:07 | 121803 Unscarred
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Do you mind forwarding me a copy of that, CD?  I seem to have outgrown my starter's guide:

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