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Get those SDRs ready Ben.
h/t Client #10
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Which makes it all the more stupid and prone to the idea of "never give a sucker an even break."
It's true because we're not talking about an investment. There's a lot more at stake here than just the dollar value of gold. We're talking about the fundamental meaning of money.
True enough: I can't recall any articles or programs devoted to treasure hunters bringing up shiny, crustacean-encrusted CDOs that drew my attention...yet how many of us have fantasized about finding that horde of gold coins buried in some misty field..or finding some forgotten pharaohs burial goods, or that pot of gold over the rainbow...seems an ancient and unfathomable craving.
Hey y'all...my roommate turned me onto this site and so far I'm loving every minute of reading the posts.
I can tell who the plants are and realize that most of you are in the same boat as me; watching and waiting to see how TPTB are going to crash the system.
Yes, Gold going up is great. However, this is just one leg of the table. As mentioned above, its the food stocks, viable land, tools, cash, gold, silver, Treasuries that all make up the survival package thats needed.
We can't see the future, so lets be like Doc Brown and prepare for all monetary possibilities.
I like to consider myself someone who feels that its my responsibility to "wake people up" from the spending trance. And I hope to hear from all y'all moving forward.
Get a name and an avatar, then we can talk to you more easily. Welcome.
Indian can buy 200 tons gold from IMF, to get delivered from where is another matter. Maybe, Chinese is getting smarter from Hong Kong's experience, not buying.
The chinese have agents trying to buy large amounts of physical gold. They can't get it. They would have to set up a system like the cash for gold system in US to collect much at all.
Forgive my ignorance but where/how does one purchase physical gold/silver? Is it done via coins and through some type of dealer?
I understand one could hedge buy purchasing gold/silver stocks/ETF's however they are still valued in USD and would not be a true hedge as would be the physical currency.
Thanks in advance.
You should do some research, start with say goldeagle.com and read up on your options. A lot depends on your goals, time frame, and quantity of gold. Go for beginner's guides and read 3-5 of them for starters (to avoid any biases). Just takes an evening. Then plan and execute.
It is pretty easy to do if you do your homework...this site ain't the bestest place for all of that in my humble opinion.
The best online site I have found so far to purchase Gold or Silver is APMEX.com
Also you can get rolls of dimes, quarters, and half dollars and look for dated coins with 90% silver or 40%.
Good Luck!
Thanks for the information. I wasn't really sure where to start my research and appreciate you pointing me in the right direction. While everyone has been talking about owning physical gold/silver I couldn't figure out how one goes about obtaining it.
Buy in cash. I am doing you a huge favor with this.
Read "What to Buy" on the MoneyChanger's website: http://www.the-moneychanger.com/
Read "Q&A" on Investment Rarities website: http://www.investmentrarities.com/
I would personally add that if it's for storing wealth, and you're interested in 1oz Gold Coin, stay with American Eagles or South African Krugerrands, as you get a true 1 troy oz, but in 22karat, other coins are Very soft and that could be a liability down the road. I also consider 1oz bars, like Credit Suisse or Pamp Suisse.
Consider buying some of what is improperly labelled "junk silver" if you think you'll be buying goods/items in the future with metal. I like having some 90% silver coins from pre-1965. More silver, consider 100 oz bars, even 1 oz rounds.
If you have a large amount of wealth to store in gold or silver, of course you would consider coins and/or bars of greater weight. But, do not waste your time on fractions-of-an-ounce gold coins, you'll pay a high premium, and if you are considering purchasing goods "down the road", silver can be the medium.
As for vendors, you may not like their websites, but two I recommend are Tulving and Moneychanger. APMEX has made too many mistakes for me, although they will correct them, and when you check their pricing, Tulving always beats them on similar items. There are a few more, but maybe this can get you started.
OR, pay cash to a dealer near to you and walk out with an anonymous purchase, although you will likely be paying a premium, there is more safety in a non-paper trail...
(And then will talk about storage... ;-) )
I like to use CNI @ golddealer.com
Why would the Indians spend so much for a barbarous relic?
And why would Buffett buy a railroad now?
They let go of a lotta $ today. Where's it gonna end up?
maybe the indians didn't spend any $ at all (see below)
Here, this is funny:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,938707,00.html
Time Magazine October 31, 1960.
Gold rush at $35/oz.
That is very funny... Chumbawamba should like that one... what would be the compound appreciation then over the next 50 years on an annualized basis?
That's how the shorts fared today (sry for the long handle):
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://lh4.ggpht.com/_xM6S1O620QE/SeARR1QsczI/AAAAAAAAKr0/xXqoD0gwtbs/s800/Crocodile%2520Hippos%2520Hippopotomus%2520Africa%2520River3.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.robotnine.com/2009/04/crocodile-takes-shortcut-over-angry.html&h=303&w=503&sz=30&tbnid=Qoz5BBHyA8-otM:&tbnh=78&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhippo%2Bvs%2Bcrocodile&hl=en&usg=__drL7IETudaBV12OAva3JUyPb3Uc=&ei=sXnwSoeyI823lAe5icn0CA&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=9&ct=image&ved=0CCYQ9QEwCA
Crocodile tears?
Hmm, found the UBS story tucked away on AFP. Guess everyone's seen that by now. Yuck.
does anyone know:
1) what currency india is using to buy their gold?
note: puffin graciously provided the answer (most likely SDRs) here:
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/gold-ignores-dollar-strength-rushes-new...
2) where one can find a gold/sdr chart online?
This right here folks, is the begining of the end. Tip e, very practical and innocent, is showing us the future.
I don't like it.
tip baby
enjoy:
http://www.kitco.com/kitco-gold-index.html
price of gold has less & less to do with the usd these days. even an equities crash can't sink it now that asians starting to take it over. hellooo india.
nice one ren...that's what i was looking for...cheers
a generous anonymouse shared this post elsewhere:
http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2009/11/freegold.html
confirming the thought that india's gold purchase was NOT a purchase at all, but a redistribution.
So, why did Warren Buffett buy a RR today and not a Gold mine, or a pile of Gold Bars? The choice is between which asset to own. Gold or a RR. Holding fiat currency, in my opinion, is not an "investment", and I do not think loyal ZH followers would ever advocate holding a single fiat currency long. I personally think the RR has more up side potential than gold, if you can get the US government to pay for improvements.
Lets follow this train of thought (no pun intended). So why did India buy Gold from the IMF, and not the RR or some other asset or commodity? Perhaps this was just an international settlement between the IMF and India, and the only way to settle was to exchange USD for Gold.
Nah, they just have a lot of weddings scheduled.
[if you can get the US government to pay for improvements]
Bingo. And pay for fuel, which is even better.
As the freeway infrastructures goes FUBAR, rail will return. You have to hold the country together with *something*. The guvmint will be all over rail like white on rice. Buffet is thinking: I'll buy up some broken down rail assets, get the government to invest in them later -- just like they did the freeways back-n-teh-day -- as strategic assets of national importance that only happen to be in private hands. Run the engines off cheap oil "borrowed" from the strategic petrolium reserve, until that is depleted, then replace them (read; new industrial production recycling the diesel locomotives) as steam locomotives burning free scrap lumber from McMansions being demo'ed in Florida and South California.
You get the idea. Can't lose with this one. We'll be saying later the man was a hero.
cougar
Here in the PA portion of the Great Valley, there have been major infrastructure upgrades in the last 9 months or so, and they are ongoing. Interstate and local bridges, municipalities finishing their under-pavement gas/water upgrades.
I'm not disagreeing with you, as now we are seeing commitments being joined by local and state gov't's and RR's for rail "yards" to be improved or created, here it is specifically being promoted to take trucks off of long-distance routes. Big monies being passed on to RR's.
I'd bet money that at least the military will be able to FUBAR these new roads and bridges over a longer period of time than was possible just two years ago, due to these upgrades. 'Cause a lot of four-wheelers won't be going as often...
According to the msm reports, he is betting on the economy recovering next year (sounds fishy to me), and is positioning himself as an energy player, via holding the largest RR in terms of revenue ($18 billion last year, hardly "broken down rail assets") if "Peak Oil" is a reality (which I believe it must be, sooner or later.) Seems this RR is a major hauler of coal. And foodstuffs.
His shiny new RR toy prides itself as a cheap alternative to overland trucking, again playing into bypassing the "Peak Oil" scenario...and don't forget, if us "oldie goldies" are correct, as the dollar collapses because it is not backed by oil as the Reserve currency used to settle oil payments...his RR is the cheaper alternative.
BTW: he leveraged (borrowed, must be nice during a so-called "credit freeze") almost $10 billion of the purchase price. The rest was in Berkshire A stock swaps. Unusual for him not to be an all cash purchase.
I wonder how many knew (Goldman Sachs was the RR "advisor" on the transaction") that Buffet would be paying a 31% premium for the stock???? Mmmm? Say, doesn't Buffet own a chunk of Goldman from billions he lent them last year????
And yes, I would not doubt some kind of "bail out" of the RR's might have been whispered to him if he tried to prime the economic engine.
If Buffet had bought $27 billion in gold...the price would have gone up to $1500 overnight.
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by cougar_w
on Tue, 11/03/2009 - 19:04
#119117
[if you can get the US government to pay for improvements]
Bingo. And pay for fuel, which is even better.
As the freeway infrastructures goes FUBAR, rail will return. You have to hold the country together with *something*. The guvmint will be all over rail like white on rice. Buffet is thinking: I'll buy up some broken down rail assets, get the government to invest in them later -- just like they did the freeways back-n-teh-day -- as strategic assets of national importance that only happen to be in private hands. Run the engines off cheap oil "borrowed" from the strategic petrolium reserve, until that is depleted, then replace them (read; new industrial production recycling the diesel locomotives) as steam locomotives burning free scrap lumber from McMansions being demo'ed in Florida and South California.
You get the idea. Can't lose with this one. We'll be saying later the man was a hero.]
Spooky, I am reading a comment that doesn't exist.....
Actually rail is well positioned to convert to whatever replaces oil. Literally every possible motive power source except natural gas has been used by the railroads over the generations. Diesel locomotives (really diesel-electric) can run on electrified rails with a quick & cheap off the shelf modification. Many dual power locomotives like this are running on American rails right now. Maybe Buffet is betting on end of feasible oil fuels in the shorter 10 to 20 year time frame. Something will have to replace trucking. All the diesel like fuels will go to farming & the military at the end.
Any reason to think they won't force everyone who buys physical to cough it all up again? One of the most shocking things I learned in the past few years was how they sent Treasury agents to the safe deposit boxes to take away gold from American Citizens and give them Dollars. Yes, they re-set the price of gold, but they forbid the population from owning it. Don't you think the powers that be would do that before capitulating on the dollar?
The feedback loop of looking for absolute value in a world dominated by rough equivalence and a race to the fx bottom continues apace.
Hi Miles,
On my way to work. Catch up with you later!
Hiya!
Let me know if you get lost finding your way back.
you guys using zh as your emailing service?
WOW!
I've only been on board ZH a short time and have been puzzled (not exactly new ground) at the lack of gold commentary, as it really is a significant "piece of the puzzle"... guess you guys were just saving it up to get it all out at once!
Thanks... enjoyed all of the views, as usual. For mine... solid precious mineral stocks and cash (outside the US)... and while the inverse correlation is obvious (since gold value is expressed in USDs), it's the non-correlated appreciation factors that make gold (and mining stocks) most attractive to me (Gold has appreciated on average > 35% in other major currencies in the last year... pre market meltdown).
MG
If the dollar collapses (ahem...WHEN the dollar collapses), you can be sure that the bankrupt brigands in charge will come for your gold, goldbugs. Civie gold holdings is a trap! Even if you're right, you're still wrong. And hedging with firearm holdings won't get you very far either. How good are you at the el Presidente?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqB2I2oVEEY
In all of history only 161,000 tons of gold have been mined.
India's citizens have up to 18,000 tons of gold 40 times more than in their central bank (From National Geographic jan 2009)I encourage every one to read. And please don,t tell me The N G S is a shill for Goldman Sachs.
Bought all my gold a decade ago at an average price of $285, and (obviously I'm a fool) stored it in a number of SD boxes, albeit all offshore.
Sold the lion's share recently at average $1024. Selling the rest now on this spike.
Yes, I know, I left some money (of some sort) on the table.
Nobody wanted it when I bought; everybody wants it when I'm selling. Go figure.
Got a thousand acres of farmland, a good water source, a windmill, and I know how to make a good pizza. Don't need the gold anymore.
that's awesome. some may criticize, but each must make their own decision of what's important to them as individuals.
cheers to you...welcome to the plant world, farmer mouse.
do yourself a favor & learn permaculture. there's been some crazy weather which has severely damaged crops this year grown in the traditional style. key to success is to learn how to manage water levels in the soil (avoiding too much or too little depending where you live).
best of luck to you.
I submit that FRNs have intrinsic value, and will remain so for the foreseeable future...
...as toilet paper. Not enough people will be carrying enough physical gold and silver to buy a roll of single-ply, and the Sears Catalog is too glossy for anything to stick to it.
I would recommend a look at silver. With around 1 billion ounces of silver above ground that leaves an average of 1/6 ounce available for each man, woman and child on the planet. Even if that's off by a billion or two ounces the ratio won't change that much.
There's less silver available per capita today than there was when one man betrayed another for a small bag of silver some 2000 years ago. That small bag bought him arable land. It was either overvalued then, or it is incredibly undervalued today.
Let us say you come upon a perfectly good barn stacked to the rafters with Confederate notes - you would be cursing that you would have to remove all that crap before the barn could once again be useful. Now if you came upon a chest of gold, would you be cursing or jumping up and down?
Confederate notes are a very expensive collectors item. I would curse but it would be like f**kwow! Im not to much about jumping up and down as much as I am a potty mouth.
Either way, If I had a barn I would still be pretty happy :)
All comments present here are very valuable. The gold started to go up very fast at about 10:15 a.m. New York time. It went up approx $20 in less than 10 min. Do you have an explanation what triggered this fast run at that particular timeframe?
I believe that the US has 8,100 tons of gold(according to wiki). If the goal of our dollar hating government is to devalue gold, then why would we not just cash in a few thousand tons and crash the market. Or perhaps just a couple hundred tons...since this made the news as a major gold influence...question of the day- how does 200 tons out of a worldwide supply of 158,000 tons even cause a ripple in the pond.
I don't know something does not smell right. The anouncement that India was buying gold was made last night. Why did gold only start going up at around 10:30am this morning?
The best way to buy gold is to buy scrap gold from the public. I have been doing this and has worked out great. You need to find a reputable refiner in your area and build a relationship with them. Any good and fair refiner will pay you 95-97% of spot. This leaves you with what ever profit you believe is fair to pay the public. Most TV and internet companys are complete scams without naming names. "you Know the ones paying a million dollars for super bowl ads" where do you think they get that money from? By paying their cutomers 40-50% of spot. So here is the kicker you pay out say 70-75% refiner charges you 3% for a profit of 22%. Then in turn you take payment in the form of gold or silver buillon at a discount of 22% from the refiner. Yes this works and is a piece of cake, all you need is a gold tester a scale a magnifying glass and customers. The easiest way to gain cutomers is through referalls word of mouth- friends and family. Its a win-win people get much needed cash, at a better price then the jewler-pawn shop-or TV scam would give them because you have"no over head." Just though I would share what I have been doing with everyone.
If lbma tried to settle delivery with substandard gold, they probably did'nt have the goods. If jp morgan offered 25% premiun to settle in cash, they probably did'nt have the goods. why risk the bad publicity .maybe they do have some gold, they just don't want to part with it.
oh I forgot the tungsten filled bars.
and barrick desperately trying to unwind their shorts
@ Apocalypse questioning Pretcher's integrity. Do you know his alumni?
Hey Ivanovich, The fed is worried about the confidence issue with the fiat USD and self fulfilling prophecy. Plus in the 70s the rise of gold was a reflection or direct feedback of losing the battle with inflation. Volker after his term as Fed President stated something like; he regretted that the price of gold got away from him like he should have intervened or controlled its price. Some people believe JPM is doing the Feds’ bidding by shorting gold. I like Nic Lenoir’s’ quote from today “Breakdown in correlations however is not uncommon around pivotal points, quite the opposite in fact” in regards to gold and the value of the USD. The contrarian in me wants to buy GLL and short gold for the short term (Trade with the Fed and the IMF) but I respect GOLD in the long term.
People also believe the FED has help with GOLD intervention from the BOE via Barclays.
Does the Dog wag his tail or does the tail move the Dog?
Whats does the fed answer?
Does anyone have a theory why the IMF has gold in their books at $42/oz.?
Wow, just doing the math I think I can help you and many others out.
Another commenter previously linked to a graph by Precter that showed the circa 1900 dollar and the fact that it is now worth $.04 cents (losing 96%) and a devalued multiple of 25 X
The chart had originally started with a value of the confiscated value of gold at roughly $20 per ounce which I stated was manipulated and should have been closer to the value once it was uncontrolled/pegged to backing the dollar. Remember the US instantly revalued the gold from $20 to something like $36. Well, the last recorded value on their books and the one they probably use to assess inflation (the devalued multiple from that point in time) and gold (the multiple of the price of gold in dollars from that same point in time) could best be considered THE BASE PRICE.
Now because Precter used the wrong base price of $20 ($ amount given on confiscation, not what the government thought it was worth) instead of $42, he said the multiple expansion of gold was 50X while the dollar devalued 25X. Now look what we get when we divide $1,080 (current price) by $42 = 25.7X Gold Multiple. Likewise take 1.00 divided by .04 and you get 25X. The universe is in harmony and gold is fairly valued just relative to the devaluation multiple from the base - think of the $1,050 (India) as a good support level that central banks are obviously willing to pay today before more debasement (think stimulus 2).
In fact, if we take the $1,050 instead of the $1,080 and divide it by $42, it equals exactly 25 (the same as the currency debasement). I had to go back to the chart just to make sure that the devaluation wasn't measured in terms of the increase in gold price because it worked out so well - but $ devaluation was based on CPI so it is good. I am not sure of the exact time frame of the $42, but it is fair to say we can't use the fixed multi year price of gold at 20.67 or the multi-year fixed price of 34 so let's just go with what the government had on its books and trust them with $42 (plus CPI has been under-reported in recent history).
Of course, I think there is upside since there is future debasement, and in addition the physical supply is limited while demand is increasing against a backdrop of deficit spending, incredible debt and securitization deflation.
I think we solved it, right here. It would appear that gold price change percentages are roughly equivalent to the US CPI inflation rate over time in a controlled environment. Also, when gold went from 850 to 253 there were alternative investments like real estate and the stock market that had more potential in a stable financial system.
here's what wikipedia says about it:
The gold for SDR swap confirmed!
Posted by Izabella Kaminska on Nov 03 09:10.
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2009/11/03/81071/the-gold-for-sdr-swap-c...
The first step towards world currency, signed off by congress:
The International Monetary Fund (IMF) will officially implement the recently approved general allocation of special drawing rights (SDR) among its 186 members, equivalent to about USD 250 billion, on August 28, according to a statement by Director of the IMF External Relations Department Caroline Atkinson.
It looks like India took their SDR and exchanged it for gold - good trade, watch all the other countries line up behind them to exchange for gold.
It does seem that way. How long before the our governments see gold flowing to emerging nations and notice their soon to be depleted stores? How long before they close the SDR window?
The gold for SDR swap confirmed!
Posted by Izabella Kaminska on Nov 03 09:10.
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2009/11/03/81071/the-gold-for-sdr-swap-c...
Like I said at my blog:
India Enjoys a Post Sex Cigarette
They got to screw all of their traditional enemies, unload some of America's funny money, get an insurance policy against Benron Bernanke and the Fed PLUS put a squeeze on our banksters who were short the metals. Care to wager who was holding shorts on the financials?
You have to love those guys, they really made a brilliant financial play before the ChiComs could do one damned thing. With gold having a new floor of support in the $1016-$1030 range we should see this sucker run up to $1150 in short order before the next consolidaton; $1300 if anything goes "boom" in the night.
BOOM!
Mmmm.
If that was a 'post-sex cigarette', looks like someone had it in them for another go...
USD over 1090, can we get it up to 1100?
"Too much at stake
Ground beneath me shake
And the news is breaking
Shock! - watch the Bermonkey get hurt, Bermonkey
Shock the Bermonkey"
If I still had the 5 Krugerrand I'd bought in 2003 I'd have $ 5500 dollars give or take a couple 20's for around $2000 I spent.
Not bad amigos. Not too shabby mon ami's.
For what it's worth; I think the elites in government will pull an FDR on gold & confiscate it when the going really gets tough. Don't expect them to give fair value either; it's gold goes or them & I don't see it being them (they got all the guns & cops & tanks & stuff). But just remember it's for your own good LITTLE MAN.
Interesting article..
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/08/business/global/08gold.html?_r=1&adxnn...
~rackgen