forefront to defend and generally shout about what they consider
important. I have seen some pretty insane logic put forth by one side or
the other. We have guys like Paul Krugman screaming that we absolutely
have to be spending more and running up the deficit/debt to Warren
Buffet who thinks that the growth in debt should be limited to no more
than 3% of GDP.
The problem is that EVERYONE is talking his or her book. I think very
few are making any sense at all. An interesting example comes from Scott
Hochberg (Strengthen Social Security Campaign) who wrote an article for the Huffington Post about illegal workers and why the country should not tighten up the E-Verify standards.
What possible reason could Mr. Hochberg give for defending the status
quo where we have 8 million illegal workers in the country at a time of
record unemployment? Answer: It would be a disaster for Social Security.
I have a very difficult time with the idiocy of this position. To make
matters worse Hochberg has his facts wrong. From the article:
E-Verify is a tool designed to prevent the employment of undocumented workers in the United States.
BK: This is correct.
E-verify
would remove millions of taxpayers from the pool that pays into Social
Security, thus weakening the solvency of the Trust Fund.
BK: This is where I go nuts. The argument put forward is that the
illegal workers contribute to SS and that without them SS is bankrupt. Yes, that is true. Without illegal worker’s contribution SS would be in deep deep trouble today. But does that mean we have to sustain illegal workers? Some numbers:
Of the
approximately 8 million undocumented workers, it is estimated that about
two-thirds of them pay payroll taxes into the Social Security Trust
Fund, accounting for $12 billion in 2007.
Undocumented workers have contributed somewhere between $120 and $240 billion to the Trust Fund, accounting for 5.4 to 10.7 percent of its total assets.
The numbers used here come from a very significant source, the head of
SSA, Mr. Goss. I wrote about this when he first made the remarks last
September (link).
Note:
I think the numbers have to be higher than what has been indicated by
Mr. Goss. If the number is (only) $12b in 2007 it implies that the
average earnings of the illegal workers is less than $20,000 per year. I
think it is closer to $35k, which would put the annual number for
improper tax receipts closer to $20 billion annually!
The article goes on to describe how serious things would be if we did not have the illegal workers contributing to the till:
According
to the chief actuary of SSA, without the contributions of undocumented
workers, the Trust Fund would run out of assets six years earlier than
estimated in the 2010 Trustees Report.
BK: I think it would be much more than six years. If SS backed
out all of the illegal contributions that have been made it would be
busted today.
Here’s the sentence that took me over the top:
Any undocumented worker that pays taxes provides a net gain to the system (since they don't collect benefits).
BK: This is complete and utter bullshit. I don’t know if Mr.
Hochberg is lying to us or if he is just ignorant of the facts. The
reality of this crazy situation is that illegal workers who contribute
to SS have the same rights as any natural citizen to receive retirement
or disability benefits. The only difference is that the illegal worker
MUST receive their monthly benefit checks outside of the country. One ex
SS worker clarified these facts at the Angry Bear blog. Her words:
I was the manager of the SS office in Northern Santa Barbara County.
Once
a person returns to his country of origin, s/he may apply for SS
benefits and receive them abroad at any American embassy or consulate.
He just can't receive SS benefits inside the US. This is well known and
is commonly done. Also, even if the worker never receives a dime in SS
benefits, his wife/widow and any children legally here can receive
benefits. SSA has a large component which processes such claims.
BK: I promise you this is correct. I have independently confirmed this. If an illegal worker pays into SS for the required number of years, they get benefits. Period. Mr. Hochberg is flat out wrong on the facts.
Consider the lunacy of the position taken by the defenders of Social Security. Another way to state their position could be:
We
consider Social Security to be the number one priority in the country.
We think that no changes should be made to this system regardless of all
of the evidence that it is now out of control. We choose to ignore the
laws of the land when it comes to illegal immigration. We choose to
ignore the consequences to the unemployed in America that illegal
workers are contributing to. We think if we keep up the status quo
(where 8 millions workers contribute hundreds of billions of illegal tax
receipts) Social Security will be able to keep the checks going a few
years longer. We are prepared to lie about the facts to achieve our
ends. We don’t give a damn about fairness. We are defending our narrow
interests. We don’t care about the huge inter-generational transfer of
wealth that SS is bringing us. Our narrow goal is to protect the
interests of the Boomers. Our motto is:
BK translation: After I’m dead things can go to hell.
Excuse the rant.
A couple of points:
If you are against "undocumented" workers, I presume you want all workers to be "documented"?
If all of the "undocumented" workers went away somehow. Who would do the jobs that they do? And at what price? What would that do to wages? What effect would those wages have on the demand for those services that those "undocumented" workers do.
I think most of the undocumented workers get paid the least, that is why they are getting hired. Employers know who is undocumented. There is an economic reason for those low wage earners and that is that the demand for their labor is not there at higher prices.
For a free market capitalist to deplore "undocumented" workers is hypocritical, IMHO.
gh
This piece was about Social Security, not illegal workers. I was trying to blow holes in the SS defenders.
What would I do? I would do something along the lines of McCain Kennedy. And yes, that implies an amnesty.
We have to look forward. Not backward.
Every criminal's dream come true! Let me guess: It's the "serious adult" thing to do? I guess I'll have to accept that in lieu of a direct answer to my substantive question above about the SSTF.
Your attempt to "blow holes in SS defenders" seems purely ideologically driven, Bruce. A definitive sign of the times, as you so ironically point out in your article, but a shame nonetheless.
It's the Democrat illegals we need to get rid of -- the Republic ones can stay.
</sarc>
It is clear that the Economic theories in place are outdated, just look at the unemployment report, 99.99% of professional economist were completely wrong and are all wearing their rose coloured glasses rather be realistic. The US economy is in huge trouble, that’s a fact.
Check out the latest from the Capital Research Institute (CRI): Creative Destruction – A New Economic Order www.capitalresearchinstitute.org
Nice post Bruce.
Unfettered illegal immigration over the last 20 years in Britain (alot of it legal too i may add) has pushed the country to the brink. Of course , no one sees it yet because the welfare checks are still being made and the monstrous wasteful jobs in the public sector havent been cut yet and interest rates are so low its enabling home owners to think their NAV is far higher than it really is ; but once those dynamics unfold the UK will become a battleground of diversity. The middle class will see their home values plummet , the public sector working class will see huge job losses and the welfare class will see their benefits go.
The racial and class warfare will take hold to the chorus of "no one could have seen it coming!!! "
The US is on the same course just with slightly mildler stagflation (which will only deepen) but slightly less tolerance. Oh dear.
Ron Paul should be our first Austrian School president.
Then watch the fur fly when he fires all the Keynesian panjandrum.
"BK translation: After I’m dead things can go to hell."
In a nutshell, in a nutshell. That is what the boomers are thinking, let me have a comfortable retirement and when I die let the others worry about the world.
Jewish Woman Tells Us Why Many Jews Don't Live In Israel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GQIptKdqNg
mass media will never air this in America
Nice job of scapegoating Bruce. You've found a great "hot button" issue group for people to fight over as you push your " Social Security, SOCIAL SECURITY?? WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' SOCIAL SECURITY!!!" agenda. Classic political strategy of divide and conquer.
Social Security is a tool of the political class, used to control the population. Just another "cookie" to dangle over their heads, and give them if they are good doggies.
It is also a Ponzi scheme, and has been from the beginning.
Please stop empowering the political class by supporting their control mechanisms, and stop defending unethical Ponzi schemes; even if that scheme was a good deal for old folks of the past.
If you want to really, actually help the elderly, support the elimination of SS and the transition to an investment-based system... like Canada, Sweden, Denmark... oh heck, like pretty much every nation but the US. And see to it that it cannot be tinkered with or borrowed from by anyone -- especially Washington.
Pay-as-you-go has got to go.
I didn't read all of the posts, didn't have to. What in the fuck is it that some of you people don't understand about the word ILLEGAL. As in ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT. That's the BOTTOM LINE HERE..........
Even though the N.A. Indians considered your ancestors illegal immigrants, did that stop them? When the illegal immigrants illegally took their slaves to settle in northern Mexico, aka Texas, did "illegal" stop them? When all those white guys settled in Alta California, Mexico illegally (and then shot the real owners of Alta California), did anyone give a shit?
That's the real bottom line.
good point, (but there weren't any Federal Laws prohibiting those crimes at the time), and by the way, I didn't junk you....
Thanks, you're a good person.
There were federal laws in Mexico prohibiting the immigration/importation of slaves into Texas. In other words, it's not illegal if you get away with it.
http://debtceilingcat.tumblr.com/
Cut entitlements and let them go do the jobs and pay the taxes to a system they adore. Well, they won't adore it anymore when its their paychecks that are stolen for their neighbors fun and use.
Very interesting stuff. Consider doing an FOIA to dig into how much illegals are pulling out of SSA annually. Of course it's a lot less than $20b as they're mostly still young, and many retired illegals prefer to stay in the US.
But it's a big question how many of their jobs would be filled by currently unemployed citizens and legals, if there were going to be a serious clamp-down on illegal employment. I don't see it happening - too many powerful interests aligned against it - but if it did, I guess Congress would quickly rush to those powerful interests' rescue with an amnesty for the current illegals and a relaxing of immigration rules so that agriculture and other sectors that rely heavily on illegals wouldn't be so hard hit by higher wage costs.
Or they could put more dope smokers in jail and then rent out their prisoners to the industries that have gotten used to underpaid laborers.
It's all about slavery. If you can't get Mexican slaves, use prisoners. Or lock up the illegals (they are "breaking the law") and make them prisoner-slaves. Win-win (unless you happen to be one of the proles on the bottom of the food chain).
"Drink and love now, Damocrates, for we shall not
drink for ever or be for ever with the lads.
Let us bind our heads with garlands and scent ourselves
before others bear flowers and scent our tombs.
Now may my bones inside me drink mostly wine,
and when they are dead let Deucalion's flood cover them."
Greek poet Strato of Sardis
No new laws are needed, just enforcement of the present laws. Why are not the present laws UNenforced?
They certainly enforced the CRA Act with vigor. They certainly enforce Afirmative Action laws with vigor.
Why not illegal immigration laws?
"Why are not the present laws UNenforced?"
Because the Power Elites control which laws are enforced and which ones aren't -- the same reason Jamie and Lloyd aren't behind bars.
Follow the money! Hint: it ain't (the lion's share) going back to some poor Mexican.
http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/2011/07/not-prosecuting-white-c...
BK:
An interesting article by a legal immigrant and now naturalized citizen:
http://takimag.com/article/suckers_of_the_world/print
Idiocy!
The US government is to reform the entire US fiscal/monetary system that has emerged since the Great Depression and do so in about a week.
Instead of the TV show, "Insane Ambition" how about passing the damned debt ceiling? Add $20 or $30 trillion to the current level so nobody has to worry about it for a few more weeks.
After the debt ceiling the renovations to the 'Body Politic' can take place, IE; nothing.
Nobody is going to do anything until the bottom falls out and interests are ruined. This is what everyone is waiting for and preparing assumptions about.
The wealthy believe their gated communities and crooked banks are going to be secure in their fortunes of gold and money. They will be lairds of various manors with many serfs.
They should check the Depression history. The US was never in danger of splitting up but the bankruptcy of capitalists was certain. In 1933 a revolution was afoot, beginning is such socialist hotbeds as Indiana and Iowa. In these place authority had broken down along with the banks which were busted. In 1933 there was no more capitalism in the heartland of America or on Wall Street, either. The stock market had dropped to near zero. All that was left was angry, hungry people.
Roosevelt bailed the banks and put cash in the vaults. People complain FDR 'stole' peoples' gold but people were starving with gold coins in their hands. Because the folks were holding money the capitalists were ruined. The capitalists had no customers. Manors, it seems, require constant cash flow ...
By going off gold and taking specie out of circulation, FDR saved the nation's banks. Capitalists need for capital is far greater than is those at the bottom of the economic ladder. Without a rescue from FDR and Adolf Hitler(!), the capitalist structure of the US with its banks, industries and 'fake prosperity' would have collapsed to be replaced by an agrarian collective. The US would have become something like Denmark.
I don't think we are going to be so lucky this time around. Mexico, maybe ...?
I always thought that one of the benefits of hiring illegals was paying them reduced wages (less than Americans might take the job for or be required to be paid under min wage) under the table? How are SS taxes paid?
Many illegals work at companies with many employees. They either have a payroll department, or outsource to a payroll company. Workers are paid a low wage, but the payroll department/company still subtracts taxes for each employee and sends them to the appropriate government agency.
Illegal aliens may obtain an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number. ITINs are issued regardless of immigration status because both resident and nonresident aliens may have U.S. tax return and payment responsibilities under the Internal Revenue Code.
I don't have a book to talk... but...
Answer: Wall Street should pay. 1% transaction tax on derivatives and HFT...
No income tax, it's unconstitutional... just capital gains...
Jamie & Lloyd
If it wasn't for fraud as a business model... Jamie & Lloyd would be Amerika's Shoe Shine Boys...
Gimme a Shine, Jamie...
1) If a not-properly-documented immigrant worked in the US long enough to qualify for SocSec, all the while reporting his wages to the government, there is an ethical obligation to pay out the due benefits earned.
What we should instead be asking is why the government (Dem or Repub) has such a laissez-faire immigration/ immigrant worker policy.
2) Of course lower income families are eligible for a variety of supports, to feed children proper diets, educate them, and provide standard health care. And of course, some who are not legally approved to be in this country are receiving such support. Some have been in this country for many years. Some of the children have lived here most of their life, and attended schools here.
To answer the question posed in “1” above, the laissez-faire policy is in many ways a subsidy to allow employers to pay low wages without benefits.
3) Some perspective is needed.
To get the nation’s finances and economy under control the big -ticket items should be addressed first. Handouts to the poor are small potatoes compared to the trillion$ of handouts to the health scam industries, parasite banks, and the war machine. Moreover, there is something ethically challenged in those who are outraged at the thought of providing health care, food, or education to the lower classes, but view the problem of bombing third world peasants in support of EXXON, Monsanto, et al with less (or even similar) concern. The problems of immigration have a lot to do with the practices of the food industry and big agribusiness. The escalating costs of health care have a lot to do with the allowances given the pharma/ insurance industries.
The wealth of this nation has been, and is still being, transferred UPWARD to a small elite. Those who focus on the much smaller downward flow are missing the forest for a tree.
agree, the real question we should ask ourselves, is there anyway considering the current income disparity gap, that anyone, through any system public or private, could earn enough to pay retirement and medical benefits, without saving 50% of their paycheck each month. and to that end savers are being punished by the financial markets. the only solution, practically, is to earn and save money in the US, and then retire to a third world country, which is the right of any US citizen who receives SSN benefits, although of course most of those hospitals do not handle medicare do they?.
None of them do. Medicare benefits are only payable to (over-priced) domestic health care providers. If you retire in a foreign country, you're on your own, health-care wise. Mexico and many other countries have subsidised health care that American retirees can get and there's also relatively cheap insurance in many cases.
well there's an idea, make medicare funds portable. that might give some of those overpriced domestic healthcare providers some competition. (and I know what you're thinking, but the SCALE of the fraud that goes with that would be much less than it is curretnly)
a broken system to build a broken system... thems facts Mister Krasting
What??? Wait a minute. If you don't have a Social security number, how can you verify your eligibility? If you use a false id, you're out. If you are illegal, you cannot obtian a SS #. If you are here on an expired visa (like a h1b) , you continue to work and the government does nothing to enforce it, then yes, in instances like this you can be "illegal" and still qualify, but just like all "facts" we are presented with in this "news of the world" society, the exception is listed as the rule and so long as it makes our point there is no reason to fact check.
If there really were 13 million illegals in the US in 2006 when Bush '43 went after them, it is surprising that no one looks to the effect that the lack of illegal immigration has had on the housing industry and the economy as a whole. WEALTH IS GENERATED FROM THE EXPLOITATION OF LABOR -it is the very definition of capitalism. I know the 2 houses I sold in Vegas in 2005 were both to illegals (after both houses had several false sales for status and even a deportation where I received half the earnest money) who used their extended legal families to back the note. Both houses went belly up soon after the crash and resold for about 33% of what I sold them for.
Not the facts. If one came to the US illegally and obtained a false SS# and then worked ten years at the meat packer and got a check (less FICA) once a week, they would be eligible for SS benefits.
The only wrinkle between that person and a legal US worker is that the money MUST be paid outside of the US. The words from the ex SS worker in Cali:
Once a person returns to his country of origin, s/he may apply for SS benefits and receive them abroad at any American embassy or consulate. He just can't receive SS benefits inside the US. This is well known and is commonly done.
My jaw dropped when I came to understand this. Read my blog from nine months ago.
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/03/social-security-for-illegal-immigrants/
"Of course, some immigrants who are here without legal permission do end up receiving Social Security and other benefits, through bureaucratic mistakes or through deliberate fraud. The Government Accountability Office has even called this a "serious problem," though the GAO also says that "the full extent of benefit fraud is unknown."
That flies in the face of Bruce's article, no?
Somebody is either partly or completely wrong.
All of this stuff was argued and debated in a thread months ago. Read the link that Bruce posted at the top of this thread. And follow any links that might be presented in that linked-to thread. Don't try to re-invent the wheel here. Don't reargue here what was settled months ago. Bruce isn't saying he thinks something should be a certain way. He is simply repeating what someone who knows said.
Bruce prefers not to let the facts deter him in his quest for higher priced produce.
And if he doesn't know how to apply for SS benefits or even know he can receive them, then what?
Bruce, you're full of shit.
feral, you are wrong. Most of these illegals know very well how to scam/take advantage of the system. They are not as stupid as people always think they are...
Do you have any credible evidence and statistics to back up that claim?
I suggest the ones that "know very well how to scam/take advantage of the system" are likely legal residents of the U.S. like you and Bruce and Lloyd and Jamie.
I second your opinion on this, though I genreally like Bruce's posts.
This argument doesnt hold water unless there is some statistic available for money paid out of the country for illegal immigrants.
Okay. I'm full of shit.
But it is very hard to take issue with the Chief Actuary of the Social Security Trust Fund. Mr. Goss is no liar. He is not full of shit. Believe the words he said nine months ago. As much as $240 billion has been collected from illegal workers. (that was 07, the number is much higher today)
This means that some person got a paycheck every week and saw the FICA deductions. Do you really think that person is so dumb that they don't ask questions?
Read what the lady says. It is well know and normal. SS has staff to assist these individuals. Sorry to repeat, but read my linked blog.
BK. I had many illegals as employees in the 90's. They have a network. When something works, scam or legal, that meme is past on word of mouth and in the wind. Attorneys crawl out from under rocks to take advantage of them...just to get a piece of the action. Do you really think anyone who knows that this lifelong annuity exists will just do nothing? This meme will be past on and mined until the vein is exhausted.
No, the illegal doesn't ask questions. It's a good way to get deported. I doubt he even reads the deduction advice he gets (if he actually gets one), or understands it if he did. He thinks the money is gone to the crooked politicians, just like in Mexico. In many illegals' jobs, (e.g. ag) he doesn't get a "paycheck every week".
How does the illegal retiree collect his Medicare benefits? Isn't it Medicare that is "breaking the system"?
I don't doubt that SS has staff -- lots of them, but I doubt that Jose, the illegal, has much contact with that staff.
I live in Mexico, maybe I could set up a business here to help Mexicans apply for social security, for say, a 50% cut. If you can't beat them, join them.
Dup.
I'm full of shit twice...
ding, ding! We have a winner!
Jose, who used a fake or someone else's SSN, cannot collect his social security benefits or any income taxes that was over-withheld. He doesn't even have a clue how to file the paperwork. The money (lots of it) stays with Uncle to fuel the bureaucracy/military-industrial complex.
All this noise about Jose not (tax)paying his way is bullshit. He pays a greater portion of his income in taxes than Bill Gates does, I would bet.
Gong, Gong! No winner!
Read from above comment. I understand that you have trouble believing it. I couldn't either. But that actually is the case.
It is possible to become eligible for SS benefits, even if you used an illegal SS card.