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Bank Of America Joins JPMorgan And Ally In Admitting It Never Validated Foreclosures Docs

Tyler Durden's picture





 

The third major bank joins JPM and Ally, which have already halted foreclosures, in admitting that one of its officials "signed up to 8000 foreclosure documents a month and typically didn't read them." Which means Bank of America is about to halt its foreclosure process. Which leaves us with the last big mortgage lender: Wells Fargo, which is quietly doing the opposite. As American Banker reports, Wells is actually curtailing extensions on residential short sales, in a last ditch attempt to accelerate the foreclosure process before it also falls  under the spotlight of fraudulent foreclosure disclosure. And Wells has more than everyone else combined, courtesy of its core market on the West Coast which, as it will soon be uncovered, has more mortgage fraud than any place in the known and unknown universe. As one reader wonders: "You think Wells is trying to hide more losses or are the banks switching to 100% bulk sale liquidations?" If indeed this is nothing than a last ditch attempt to dump as much as possible before the REO spigot is shut off, then shit is really about to hit the fan.

From the Associates Press:

A Bank of America official acknowledges in a legal proceeding that she signed up to 8,000 foreclosure documents a month and typically didn't read them.

The executive's admission adds the nation's largest bank to a growing list of mortgage companies whose employees signed documents in foreclosure cases without verifying the information in them.

Two other companies, Ally Financial Inc.'s GMAC Mortgage unit and JPMorgan Chase, have halted tens of thousands of foreclosure cases after similar problems became public.

The Bank of America executive said in a February deposition that she signed 7,000 to 8,000 foreclosure documents a month. "I typicallydon't read them because of the volume that we sign," she said.

Bank of America declined to comment.

Update: As expected, BofA has just confirmed it is halting foreclosures in the same 23 states in which Ally and JPM are also no longer operating.

From AP:

Bank of America is delaying foreclosures in 23 states as it examines whether it rushed the foreclosure process for thousands of homeowners without reading the documents.

Bank of America isn't able to estimate how many homeowners' cases will be affected, Dan Frahm, a spokesman for the Charlotte, N.C.-based bank, said Friday.

The move adds the nation's largest bank to a growing list of mortgage companies whose employees signed documents in foreclosure cases without verifying the information in them.

Two other companies, Ally Financial Inc.'s GMAC Mortgage unit and JPMorgan Chase, have halted tens of thousands of foreclosure cases after similar problems became public.

A Bank of America official acknowledged in a legal proceeding in February that she signed up to 8,000 foreclosure documents a month and typically didn't read them. The Associated Press obtained the document Friday.

The official, Renee Hertzler, said in a deposition in a Massachusetts homeowner's bankruptcy case that she signed 7,000 to 8,000 foreclosure documents a month.

"I typically don't read them because of the volume that we sign," Hertzler said.

She also acknowledged identifying herself as a representative of a different bank, Bank of New York Mellon, that she didn't work for. Bank of New York Mellon served as a trustee for the investors holding the homeowner's loan.

Hertzler could not be reached for comment.

A lawyer for the homeowner in the case, James O'Connell of Fitchburg, Mass., said such problems are rampant throughout the industry.

"We have had thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of foreclosures around the country by entities that did not have the right to foreclose," O'Connell said.

The disclosure comes two days after JPMorgan said it would temporarily stop foreclosing on more than 50,000 homes so it could review documents that might contain errors. Last week, GMAC halted certain evictions and sales of foreclosed homes in 23 states to review those cases after finding procedural errors in some foreclosure affidavits.

After GMAC's announcement, state attorneys general in California and Connecticut told the company to stop foreclosures until it proves it's complying with their state laws. The Ohio attorney general this week asked judges to review GMAC foreclosure cases.

And in Florida, the state attorney general is investigating four law firms, two with ties to GMAC, for allegedly providing fraudulent documents in foreclosure cases.

In some states, lenders can foreclose quickly on delinquent mortgage borrowers. But 23 states use a lengthy court process for foreclosures. They require documents to verify information on the mortgage, including who owns it. Florida, New York, New Jersey and Illinois are the biggest states with this process.

 


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Fri, 10/01/2010 - 16:39 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Should be good for a positive move up on the banks monday. How many banks are they gonna close this weekend?

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 20:38 | Link to Comment albion402
albion402's picture

Seems like it is time for these aggressive, mean-sprited bankers to face the music and read the damned documents.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 21:16 | Link to Comment max2205
max2205's picture

Why. Congress didn't read the health care bill. It's the new rubber stamp.

Shit says the same thing in each package any way. Ever see a buyer read those?! Noooo

Sat, 10/02/2010 - 10:53 | Link to Comment Careless Whisper
Careless Whisper's picture

we are hearing a lot about the people who signed these docs. but what about the people who created them? where did they get the names and numbers to put on the docs?

Sat, 10/02/2010 - 11:17 | Link to Comment OldTrooper
OldTrooper's picture

The docs probably just get pulled out of the computer system - like anything else these days.  I doubt that anyone creating the docs looks at (or even has access to) the original file.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 16:39 | Link to Comment NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

this appears to be a contrived crisis.  all of these bankers with confessions?

cant believe all the mortgage documents are defective.  maybe an excuse to avoid the obvious - these debts will never be paid

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 16:51 | Link to Comment NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

the mere fact that some foreclosure clerk "didnt read" a document does not invalidate it.  borrowers also did not read loan docs they signed and they took the money and bought the house.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:01 | Link to Comment ATG
ATG's picture

No more title insurance

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:49 | Link to Comment RichardP
RichardP's picture

The owner of the mortgage is the only entity entitled by law to foreclose.  Don't rush past that point.  It is the point on which all of this hinges.

The owner of the mortgage may also grant agency to some entity so they can foreclose on behalf of the owner.  This issue is not that the clerk didn't read a document.  It is that the clerk did not look through the folder to verify that a.) the bank was the owner of the mortgage, or b.) the true owner(s) of the mortgage actually granted agency to the bank to foreclose on their behalf.  Any foreclosure done by the bank where the bank was not the owner of the mortgage or was not granted agency by the owner(s) of the mortgage would be overturned when challenged in court.

These banks have stopped the foreclosure process until they can determine that they actually have the right (or agency) to foreclose.  If everything in a given folder is proper, the bank can resume foreclosure activity on the property named in the given folder.  The point is, those folders/mortgages used to create mortgage-backed securities probably don't have the appropriate paper work in them.  And after all of the slicing and dicing that went on to create multiple MBS's and tranches, there is the question of whether the current owners of the actual mortgage on a given property can be located in a timely fashion so that they can ALL grant agency to the bank to foreclose on the given property.

There is no question about whether the banks can locate the current owner(s) of the mortgage.  Those owners would be whoever they were passing the cash flow to when the mortgage payment came in.  Locating the owners and receiving agency from them will simply be labor-intensive and time-consuming - something that the banks have been trying to avoid because that costs money, money they don't have.  Consider a mortgage that was sliced into 100 pieces and sold to 100 different entities.  Now suppose the bank contacts all of them: 49 of them grant agency to the bank to foreclose, 51 of them don't grant agency.  What does the bank do in this situation, re. the party who is not making his mortgage payments?  This is just one of the ways that the plot has the potential to thicken.

In all of this, don't forget that the courts side against unjust enrichment.  It is not likely that any court will let any occupant keep a house without paying for it.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:57 | Link to Comment mynhair
mynhair's picture

Don't forget:  most states require original documents.  Those were burned.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 18:03 | Link to Comment Rainman
Rainman's picture

+100 different entities. The spiders get stuck in their own web. The delinquent bugs party on.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 20:07 | Link to Comment RoRoTrader
RoRoTrader's picture

Real meaning is the judical system is broken, broke and VERY FUCKING BROKE, right?

Bankruptcy of the Law.......and Ram (it up your ass fucker) Emanuel is running for Mayor of Chicago.......

Best guess, means Chicago gets it own printing presses, correct........U of Chicago......mid west FED.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 18:09 | Link to Comment Nihilarian
Nihilarian's picture

In all of this, don't forget that the courts side against unjust enrichment.

 

...Still waiting for them to overturn suspension of mark to market.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 18:18 | Link to Comment RichardP
RichardP's picture

... side against unjust enrichment of the little folk.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 18:22 | Link to Comment anonnn
anonnn's picture

...sliced into 100 pieces and sold to 100 different entities. ...

Ummm... did each entity pay the County Recorder fees for the ownership changes?

The County Recorder Office is source for TITLE clearance docs...or was. [Is County Recorder fraud another BlackSwan?]

Have any County Recorders brought suit yet for fees uncollected?  Those uncollected fees [via MERS ] are more profits to mortgage swindlers...and  are taken from County infrastructure maintenance, etc. 

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 18:54 | Link to Comment Geoff-UK
Geoff-UK's picture

+$5T

Counties are busted from unemployed people not paying taxes, property values going into the gutter--and now some note-holder is going to CLAIM he owns the not instead of the guy who bought it 10 transactions ago?

Counties are gonna get wise to this, and lock up any foreclosure til they get theirs first.

The mess that this is can not be explained by any word in the English language--disaster of biblical proportions, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria...nope, not good enough.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 19:43 | Link to Comment andybev01
andybev01's picture

Cool! I'm gonna go and squat me a 4br/4bath tomorow!!

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 16:40 | Link to Comment ozziindaus
ozziindaus's picture

If the root of the problem is proof of title ownership, then who is entitled to receive mortgage payments from those who are current? I suggest we all dump our money into an escrow account until it's settled. 

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:39 | Link to Comment Nathan Muir
Nathan Muir's picture

+1 

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 18:17 | Link to Comment RichardP
RichardP's picture

As stated directly above, the root of the problem is not knowing whether a given folder actually contains proof of ownership of the mortgage - simply because those who were supposed to look through the folder before beginning foreclosure proceedings did not look.  Any completed foreclosure will be voided by the courts if someone can demonstrate that they bank did not have the required documents.

Banks are now saying time-out so that the looking can be done.  Some folders will likely contain the appropriate paperwork.  Others won't.  Since the courts are now looking, the banks want to be sure they proceed to foreclosure only where they have the required documents.  We can assume the banks will quietly go after the required documents in those instances where they don't have them.

Sat, 10/02/2010 - 01:51 | Link to Comment tom a taxpayer
tom a taxpayer's picture

RichardP - Thanks for explaining this complicated issue in clear language.

Sat, 10/02/2010 - 03:33 | Link to Comment RichardP
RichardP's picture

Thanks for the compliment, but I'm just summarizing what has been stated in other posts on this subject at ZeroHedge recently.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 16:41 | Link to Comment Tom Servo
Tom Servo's picture

Friday after close, the real news starts coming out....might be a wild weekend!

 

How many on FDIC Fail Friday this week?

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 22:21 | Link to Comment unum mountaineer
unum mountaineer's picture

Wakulla Bank, based in Crawfordville, Fla.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 16:42 | Link to Comment spartan117
spartan117's picture

I think this is a thinly veiled message to all upside down homeowners that they can stop paying their mortgage.  Banks don't need the money anyway if QE 2.0 is a month away.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:29 | Link to Comment B9K9
B9K9's picture
@ FEDbuster - The FED and Treasury must be going ape shit right about now.  Jamie Dimon and ilk must be buying Depends by the case lot.
My comment below is direct to the both of you and to any others who are looking forward to some kind of dollar debasement via QE X.0:

There isn't anyone at the (nominal) helm who didn't understood from the very git-go that the only possible way out was a resumption of organic credit growth. All the fraud, lies, deceit, corruption and violation of centuries old jurisprudence were justified (at least in their minds) by national security concerns.

The power-elite have always know that there was a black whole comprised of many different elements, one of which being title insurance, related to challenges in re-securitizing the ponzi. More importantly, they knew that they had at most two years in which to blow another bubble, anywhere/any kind, to get the herd moving once again in a speculative fashion.

If they had succeeded, there ain't a person alive (except for chronic complainers who are never happy) who would be bothering about "ancient" history while desperately trying to get in on the new party happenings.

QE was never meant to actually monetize anything. It was only part of a coordinated attempt, combined with control of mass media, expert triggering of key emotional drivers (eg optimism), appeals to authority/leadership, you name it, the whole gamut, aimed at manipulating overall general market psychology.

Their two years is now up - they have failed. What we are seeing now is the roll-over. Events are going to start accelerating faster as we appear to be a tad late with our appointment with destiny.

Just to re-iterate:

  • No one is going to get a free house. Live for free? Sure; it many take years, but eventually all of these mortgages will be rolled back to the point where clean title can be (re)established. Effect of the slow down in the r/e marketplace & overall economy - disasterous.
  • QE - Ain't gonna happen. The American people are now awake and are not going to stand around with puds in hand while the dollar and their remaining (if any) collective savings are evaporated. There's a lot of moaning about passive sheep, but humans are volatile creatures - look out when the mob begins moving in force.
  • There will be no more bailouts, there will be no real QE (other than small scale targeted manipulation eg POMO). Rather, we are going to enter a new period of staggered defaults, first on unfunded mandates, then onto entitlements, and then eventually debt instruments.

This ride is only just starting. Please note that today, right now, are the good old days.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 16:42 | Link to Comment Rahm
Rahm's picture

11:59:51

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 16:44 | Link to Comment centerline
centerline's picture

If I did this type of crap in my profession, I would be in a shit-load of trouble to say the least.  Amazes me that people will sign anything for a paycheck - without any conscience or thought of what the consequences might be.

 

This bitch is signing documents that actually kick people out of thier homes and did not push back against the volume to at least conduct due process.  She deserves to rot in hell.

 

I'll bet we are seeing only the front end of what is a monster wave of trouble.  At least I hope so.  This crap needs to get out in the open now.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 16:46 | Link to Comment ozziindaus
ozziindaus's picture

How many from now on will claim they never read their 1040 before submitting it?

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:05 | Link to Comment centerline
centerline's picture

This crap really is pisses me off.  Sometimes more than the normal state of angry that I live in (LOL).  Those of us who have always "played by the rules," avoided excessive risk, lived within our means just get repeated f***ed over the last 10 years+.  And ironically, it is this very demographic of people that is the last real thread holding this illusion up a little longer.  The funny part is that it is no mystery to most that the "American Dream" is just an illusion now.  Many boomers are just crossing thier fingers that the ship holds together long enough for them to collect thier pensions, SS, etc.  Welfare side of the equation wants the support to keep flowing.  The rich don't want to see everything they have evaporate.  Thus, only the remaining middle class has any real desire to see this farce end.  My middle-class self would rather risk the unknown on hopes of better future than continue down a path that I know leads to a lifetime of debt servitude and/or poverty.

 

(edit - ranting.... not commenting about the 1040 post.  That was funny by the way).

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:31 | Link to Comment Bob
Bob's picture

When they do it in the presence of a Notary, then they'll have a real problem. 

Apples, oranges.  Slippery slope, not. 

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 16:47 | Link to Comment mamg
mamg's picture

Or is it just some sort of disguise to prolong the M-2-Fantasy instead of floating everything on the surface of Earth.  QE2 is coming; so is TARP II, maybe they will do anything to hold back the realizing/booking of losses through the foreclosures.  Paying a few hundred millions to settle the cases in three months is way better than realizing Billions in losses.  If not, why now? At the end of TARP I?

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 16:50 | Link to Comment Ragnarok
Ragnarok's picture

We are being prepped for TARP2, all the spin out there in the last couple days that TARP1 went swimmingly and we are going to be paid in full from AIG, Citi, GM etc...  Plus, if the Fed is offering to buy the Treasury will issue more.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 19:28 | Link to Comment tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

"We are being prepped for TARP2"

methinks so too, especially after reading the articles from woodward's latest black tome in the white house.   it's all about the spin baby.

let's see how us sheeple react this time 'round.  fool me once, shame on you.   fool me twice?

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 22:19 | Link to Comment reading
reading's picture

Dont worry, those 5 title insurance companies are probably all backed by AIG

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 16:50 | Link to Comment Panafrican Funk...
Panafrican Funktron Robot's picture

Just to echo a comment I made over on Reggie's analysis, it looks like this is the setup for the government taking over these notes, modifying, and enforcing (wage garnishment, IRS fun, etc.).  Bank stocks are actually probably going to look a lot prettier when this is all said and done. 

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 16:53 | Link to Comment hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

Like GM?

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:13 | Link to Comment NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Bank stocks are actually probably going to look a lot prettier when this is all said and done.

Yep, both of them.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 16:53 | Link to Comment Cojones
Cojones's picture

The good part is, believe it or not, that this happens in the US. Whenever a huge fraud takes place in the EU they simply change the laws so the TBTF's get out of harm's way.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 16:57 | Link to Comment Arkadaba
Arkadaba's picture

You're joking ... right?

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:04 | Link to Comment Cojones
Cojones's picture

Nope.The EU is one of the most horriffic collectivist unions on the globe, as soon as 'the system' suffers, individual rights are abolished.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 18:26 | Link to Comment Arkadaba
Arkadaba's picture

And the banker's collectivist union - how is that working?

Give me a break - I'm not even sure what you are saying.  Respond logically with numbers and facts and I might listen. 

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 21:08 | Link to Comment Cojones
Cojones's picture

As you should know, plenty of european banks have already been nationalised and even more banks have been pseudo nationalised. For example did you know that ING was forced by the state to takeon an a former union leader on the board  in exchange for a bailout?

The entire Fortis/ABN-Amro/Santander/RBS scam that took place? The fraudulent front running that was never even thoroughly investigated? The Spanish Cajas that are technically bankrupt but withstood the EU 'stresstest'? The Greek governmental fraud? Anglo Irish? Hyporeal? Lansbanki and Icesave?

The list is sheer endless.  Noone was ever prosecuted.

Why? Because all institutions were partly or entirely state owned now and any claims would have to be paid by them states since they just bailed them out of deep shit.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 16:55 | Link to Comment Kaiser Sousa
Kaiser Sousa's picture

i love it...fuck a banker...

now if everyone would default on all thier "obligations" to these institutions that only exist by virtue of the fact that we have all been saddled with debt that can never be repaid, this shit would be brought to a screeching hault...

resistance must me overwhelming an carried outin every form...

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 16:58 | Link to Comment Precious
Precious's picture

These people should be fucking going to jail for this.  It is no different than other white collar forgeries.  Lock them up, and their bosses too.  CEO's went to jail for backdating stock options.  Where is the justice for these fraudsters.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:10 | Link to Comment centerline
centerline's picture

+1.  Criminal negligence.  First time in my life that I would be happy to see an army of lawyers!  Most of them are middle-class folks who are as pissed off as the rest of us.  It's going to get interesting for sure.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:07 | Link to Comment JohnKing
JohnKing's picture

Foreclosures will pick back up after November elections.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:07 | Link to Comment johngaltfla
johngaltfla's picture

Shocked. Stunned. Amazed.

Ok, not so much. I've got customers and friends who have been mailing their Countrywide payments in on time, sometimes electronically for over a year.

And they still got foreclosure notices.

Care to wager how large the Wachovia Clusterf*ck is?

Yeah, bigger than WaMus and spreading to your favorite soon to die regional bank soon.

Gee, when does this start to impact the REITs boys and girls? I mean after all, a building with 50% of the tenants in default (over and over again) can't justify a 100% valuation on the construction of these trusts now can it?

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:17 | Link to Comment NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Now why would a bank want all those houses, when they are getting their contracted revenue stream from them???

Because they are going to sell them back to Fedgov when they create the new & improved Fannie Mac Daddy.

All your house R belong to us. Comrade.

Sat, 10/02/2010 - 11:44 | Link to Comment OldTrooper
OldTrooper's picture

It's a mess for sure, John.

You don't even need to have a mortgage to loose your house in foreclosure.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/business/fl-wrongful-foreclosure-0922-20100921,0,36776.story

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/bank-america-sued-foreclosing-wrong-homes/story?id=9637897

Hint for potential buyers of distressed property:  These are a nightmare from a title standpoint.  Make sure you have professionals handling the deal and get title insurance.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:08 | Link to Comment Tom Servo
Tom Servo's picture

Prelude to the "Bank Holiday" that Celente has been chirping about for a year and a half?

 

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:16 | Link to Comment LostWages
LostWages's picture

I do property evalutations for banks in Las Vegas, (about 200 per month) and have for the past 3 years.

This past week I got about a dozen orders of properties owned by Wells Fargo (REOs).  These properties were all foreclosed on in 2008 and early 2009...WFC is the owner of record on the tax roles, and all the properties have been rented out after the foreclosure sale.

It is my understanding that banks cannot hold properties and become "landlords", but clearly this is the case.  BTW, since 2008 the properties have fallen about 40%, so their plan to wait out the downturn backfired on them.

It may be WFC is finally clearing these types of properties off their books, and it may make sense in light of the 3M issues that have come to light recently.

There could be even more fraud coming than we know about.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:20 | Link to Comment ATG
Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:20 | Link to Comment NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Here, a local bank started their own property management company a couple of years ago, catching my attention. Perhaps the rest of them have as well?

 

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 18:32 | Link to Comment Rainman
Rainman's picture

.....oh, goodie. They can cut up the leases into tranches and sell them as rental backed securities.

For the love of God, me says as I whacks me head.

Sat, 10/02/2010 - 02:20 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Me hears ya!  I can't tell if it's the World or my frontal cortex that's spinning these days.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:17 | Link to Comment johngaltfla
johngaltfla's picture

FWIW, put on your tinfoil hats:

1. Isn't this "convenient" just before the mid-term elections?

2. Isn't this "convenient" as REO prices are tanking and inventory now sitting longer...

3. Isn't this "convenient" so as to pad the books and guarantee the banksters get their Christmas Bonuses?

4. Isn't this "convenient" so as to stop any further deterioration in REIT structures and damage the insurance industry any further?

5. Isn't this "convenient" as the amount of qualified buyers trails existing plus projected inventory through 2013 by an almost 3:2 margin?

Maybe not so tinfoil after all.

I'm just sayin'.....

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 18:36 | Link to Comment Steaming_Wookie_Doo
Steaming_Wookie_Doo's picture

Very convenient! I think the bankers are most concerned with their bonuses (#3). I don't see how this actually stops damage to REITs. I could see this being a boon to the title insurance biz, tho. Yes, a "moratorium" of sorts does sound benevolent before elections, but this didn't happen because congress made some law (hell, they beat a path out of town to go stumping). I suppose you can make more qualified buyers by removing 30% of available homes for sale, but that's really sweeping it under the rug til later. 

More to the point, there is serious fraud in all this. Forget QE2, we need RTC2 to sort this crap out.

Sat, 10/02/2010 - 02:22 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Follow on:  Will TPTB lose enough FRNs before Nov 2nd to "crash" something so that the Republicons take over the Senate too?

Tue, 10/05/2010 - 12:43 | Link to Comment Geoff-UK
Geoff-UK's picture

"You're just saying"....what?

I find it most "inconvenient" that you assume we all buy our tinfoil hats at the same store as you.  If you have a point, please make it.

 

 

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:24 | Link to Comment chinaguy
chinaguy's picture

I'm making an offer on a Bank of America REO.

A few months ago ZH posted a report by Bank of America saying housing would not bottom until 2013.

Can anyone find me a link to it? I want to include it in the offer Addendum -

Thanks,

CG

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:28 | Link to Comment Id fight Gandhi
Id fight Gandhi's picture

Free mortgage payments! Just stop paying!

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:37 | Link to Comment anonnn
anonnn's picture

Newest BlackSwan?

...B of A sign 8,000 docs/month they did not read...

So, "fine-print" on a document is a BlackSwan. 

And document "boilerplate" is a BlackSwan.

Who could have known?

 

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 19:32 | Link to Comment tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

Tanta knew

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:38 | Link to Comment swmnguy
swmnguy's picture

This mess in residential RE is a foul one, to be sure. But it's houses and dollars and titles, and eventually it will get sorted out.  Other posters have suggested predictions of various vileness and I'm sure TPTB have thought of them as well.

I'm wondering how all the MBS crap gets sorted out.  That kind of goes to the heart of the credibility of the entire bond market.  Worrying about people squatting in what had been their homes in the context of how deep this thing goes is kind of like fluffing the pillows on the deck chairs on the Titanic, IMHO.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 19:25 | Link to Comment Hansel
Hansel's picture

I agree that what this says about the entire bond market is more important.  The houses were already in foreclosure, and now the legal and administrative costs will pile up.  The legal costs associated with all this means (to me) MBSs just took another big hit in value.  Some of these MBSs are sitting on the Fed's balance sheet, which brings the value of the dollar into question along with treasuries.  Property taxes aren't being paid and that hits the states.  There is such a huge pile of paper assets, all interlinked, and all of questionable value.  At least it's football season.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 21:44 | Link to Comment RichardP
RichardP's picture

Go Redskins!!

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:43 | Link to Comment RSDallas
RSDallas's picture

Definitely a set up!  It could be another ploy for the banks to put the brakes on the foreclosure train that was gaining speed.  I mean come on....stop the proceedings all together???  Smells real bad, especially with an election coming up.  I can see the headlines now; "Foreclosure Rate Declines To 3 Year Low" and Obama claims we are working our way out of a mess created by the Republicans.  

Sat, 10/02/2010 - 02:25 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Another headline:  "Floridians riot when they discover they've been thrown out of their homes illegally!"

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:48 | Link to Comment sysin3
sysin3's picture

Shit, add Chase and I ain't writing no damn more mortgage checks.  Come and get me.

Oh wait, I ain't even sure that Chase still owns the loan.  And they ain't sure either.  And they might not be able to prove it anyway.

Seems to me that my best choice of action is to not pay and see who comes a-knockin'.

Can do easy, dai-uy.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 18:00 | Link to Comment sysin3
sysin3's picture

Even better.  I done completely forgot that Chase is owned by JPM, which has already suspended proceedings because they falsified the documents.

hmm, best case is free house.  Worst case, I have to pay the arrears, eventually, if and only if those morons can get their act together.  Could be years.

Sweet !

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 18:39 | Link to Comment 1100-TACTICAL-12
1100-TACTICAL-12's picture

stop paying & escrow, the money in the mattress & see how it shakes out. I wonder which 23 states they refer to.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 19:37 | Link to Comment sysin3
sysin3's picture

Well, there seems to be very little downside, and some potential upside.  Place your (my) bets, ladies and gentlemen.

Worst that can happen is I say, whoops forgot to send the check, here 'tis.  I'm thinking 2 years, at least.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:49 | Link to Comment Strongbad
Strongbad's picture

American property law is a really ancient and often complex area of law that goes all the way back to the early Anglo common law.  Even the word mortgage is a Norman French word from teh Middle Ages.  The big banks tried to turn mortgages into tradable Wall Street financial instruments where there wasn't really any solid legal precedent for doing so and they ended up effing themselves.  You can't just trade mortgages around like stocks and expect to have a clean chain of title that will hold up in court.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:48 | Link to Comment bugs_
bugs_'s picture

REO Speedwagon

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 19:48 | Link to Comment andybev01
andybev01's picture

HA!!

Double-plus good.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 21:40 | Link to Comment skippy
skippy's picture

Used to spend time with them, in Calif, your usage is apropo. Watched as a good friend (champagne Il. lad also), destroyed a artsy fartsy coffee table worth 6K in the 80s, too rubble w/attached sand-wedge, in their lounge room.

 

Skippy...the RE/O market is like most of their marriages lmao.... 

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:49 | Link to Comment Ragnarok
Ragnarok's picture

OT: This guy is running against Barney Frank, could us some help.

 

Sean Bielat

http://www.seanbielat.org/

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 17:58 | Link to Comment contrabandista13
contrabandista13's picture

Every one of you needs to do what I've done....  Become an LLC and personally opt out of the system...  

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 18:33 | Link to Comment Maos Dog
Maos Dog's picture

I am not challenging you, just curious, Why llc and not regular C-Corp? C-Corp is less red flags and less audit prone

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 18:00 | Link to Comment anonnn
anonnn's picture

Another BlackSwan: Employee Statistics

If you are rewarded [[pay,bonus, benefits,etc] according to a statistic [how many foreclosure docs you sign or authorize per month], you will push the statistic.

E.g.  A CEO gets a bonus if profits increase. The CEO cuts-back on maintenance and thus cost-savings of no-maintenance goes directly into gross profits. CEO gets fat bonus. Few years later factory collapses...or the next  CEO has factory collapse because, surprise!, poor maintenance practices. Etc.

Hired CEOs push-and-deliver on the statistic that determines their reward. They hollow-out the enterprise.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 18:01 | Link to Comment SoCalBusted
SoCalBusted's picture

Here's a thought:

Bank of America + Countrywide = WAMU?

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 18:03 | Link to Comment Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

Donkey Kong Bitches!

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 18:16 | Link to Comment nwskii
nwskii's picture

So let me see if I got this right, banks admit screwing everying one, they dont know who really owns the note, and if you paid your house of with (for example Wells Fargo) then JPM can come in and claim that they are the real owner and you must pay them too. This is awsome Banks Stocks to the Moon

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 18:22 | Link to Comment SteveNYC
SteveNYC's picture

What is it going to take for people to remove every red cent (not that most people have a red cent left) from these TBTF banks? Seriously, whoever is still banking with these criminals......go do something about it, or go work for them.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 19:50 | Link to Comment ozziindaus
ozziindaus's picture

I tried everything I possibly can. Chase bought my mortgage and took over the companies 401K scam. Next step is to stop contributing into this 401k junk and fuck the employers contribution....after all, who knows what the tax rate would be when I'm ready to retire.

 

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 18:46 | Link to Comment anonnn
anonnn's picture

What if, 50 years fom now, TooBigToFail turns out to be a myth?

A public-relations clever-stroke?

A Tooth Fairy?

A flat earth?

A joke?

God has an infinite sense of humor?

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 19:05 | Link to Comment RalfMalf
RalfMalf's picture

OK so anecdote on Wells Fargo from the Northeast:

I and my wife who have never owned RE and pre qualify for $500+ in mortgage.

Credit scores 780-800 - check

No Auto Loans - Check

No home loans - check

No defaults etc - etc

Continuous employment since 1994 - check

Low Credit Card utilization - check (zero balances as of next month)

 

Attempted to buy a Wells REO a few weeks back.

Ask was $399k

Lifted the Ask - paperwork in to the sellers agent the day after a 20% price cut from $499k

PREAPPROVED through Wells Fargo for both a Wells loan, and an FHA for good measure.(so Wells would have been the seller and the bank providing financing)

 

Four days later I hear back - they accepted a LOWER BID.

The logic of this blows my mind - did I mention I live in an appartment and could move in immediately.....?

I talked to a few people who suggested its a sweatheart deal for a friend of someone (sellers agent or Wells).

 

On the other hand if they tried to spring "The Addendum" in which they don't guarantee title I would have prob walked anyway.

 

As it is, I had a phone conversation with their REO division and then sent a follow up email ripping them for accepting a lower offer.

Don't know what else to do as we really liked the house.

 

Oh yeah, we checked the box saying we were going with the FHA - didn't think it was a big deal at the time - could that have been a legit reason to reject?

 

 

 

 

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 19:12 | Link to Comment goodrich4bk
goodrich4bk's picture

This happened to my wife and me in 1991 with an REO held by Security Pacific National Bank.  All cash offer for $600k and pre-approved financing, close in 10 days.  REO officer kept stalling, telling me his appraiser needed to complete his appraisal, then later telling me the pool needed to be fixed first.  When I didn't give up, he eventually admitted the home had been sold --- he said for more than my offer.  I was so mad that I tracked the sale through the county records and discovered to my shock that the home had sold for $535k --- $65k BELOW our offer.  Five years later, after we had purchased a non-REO property in the same neighborhood, my wife meets the buyer and it turns out she was an officer of Security Pacific Bank at the time.

So your suspicion is probably correct.  

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 19:21 | Link to Comment RalfMalf
RalfMalf's picture

So they make darn sure they get their docs done, but do a half-assed job on everyone elses home purchases....

Sun, 10/03/2010 - 10:47 | Link to Comment GoingLoonie
GoingLoonie's picture

Be thankful.  The market will drop another 25-40% from here, pretty much everywhere.  You just saved two hundred thousand dollars.  Patience.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 19:05 | Link to Comment goodrich4bk
goodrich4bk's picture

Wells Fargo's mortgages are mostly in trust deed states which do not require or usually involve a judicial proceeding.  That may explain why Wells is not joining in the moritorium.  In a judicial proceeding, you need a judge's order and to get the judge's order you need a declaration signed by somebody with personal knowledge of the facts.  The admission that the declarants had no personal knowledge invalidates the declaration and, therefore, the judgment.  Although the attorneys submitting false declarations may be sanctioned by the court, their client can file a new declaration from a person with personal knowledge who signed before a real notary.  If this is done, it should be sufficient to restore the bank's foreclosure judgment.

Of course, the problem is perhaps in locating the actual "file".  We may learn that the reason the banks submitted false declarations is that they could not trace their ownership of the loan back to the original issuer because the original issuer is no longer in business and the people who originate the loans intentional destroyed the files to cover up their fraud.  Yes, the BANK fraud in originating loans to people they knew were not qualified to repay them. 

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 19:55 | Link to Comment enobittep
enobittep's picture

Guys, I know I am too negative, but....

Don't be fooled, this was all planned by the TBTF banks from the start.  Act I:  they fall on their swords by admitting to screwing up the foreclosure process.  They will be sure to point out that the total system if FUBAR'ed and request that they be given a hall pass given the truely extraordinary circumstances we are in.  Act II:  their bankster lap dogs in congress will waddle to their aid and legislate relief giving them time to sort all this mess (despite having caused it in the 1st place).  THEY WILL BE GIVEN RELIEF IN THE FORM OF NOT HAVING TO REFLECT THESE BAD LOANS ON THEIR BOOKS AS NON-PERFORMING (I.E. THE REAL BANKSTER AGENDA).  Bank profits up - more capital gains for the money changers.  Act III:  the banksters are given time to slowly bleed all these foreclosed upon homes onto the market in order to make the country's economic situation look better than it really is.  Act IV:  the Fed and bureau of lies continue lying to the US population that has been dumbed down through 80 years of public indoctrin-ucation.  The banksters continue to earn their infinite returns until the US is properly positioned for a hard fall (while the banksters are positioned for maximum gain).  Alas, the only answer will be that the US surrender their sovereignty and agree to being merged into American Economic Union.

Shame on us if we let these fuckers do this to us.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 21:09 | Link to Comment treemagnet
treemagnet's picture

Bears are gonna win this one.....financials are not immune to this and have no ability to fight this.  Next week, financials start to drag the market with it, with only faint hopes of QE2 to keep it from a freefall....cause the financials (almost) always lead.  No? 

1. Public is pissed as hell at bank(ers).  Lots of truth and legitimacy but also alot of misplaced rage - but rage nonetheless.

2. Election campaigns underway so the bloodsucking politicians are out looking to tell the folks its not your fault but I'll tell who's it is.  Basic premise, somebody else's money for your vote.......that rings familiar.

3. Pesimistic pissed off people everywhere - increasingly aware that somebody fucked 'em over......now they will be told who and what will be done to them if you just vote for "me".

This is the thing that starts "it" ....'cause it'll bring everyone in.  Those who've paid get fucked again and the freeloading masses get more "fee shit fum 'da gubment".  This is the spark in my opinion.....but I'm a bear so take it with a lot of salt.  So lets hear it, why am I wrong.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 21:27 | Link to Comment John Bigboote
John Bigboote's picture

Why 23 states? Why not 50 states? Which 23 states? Anyone here know why the limitation?

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 22:13 | Link to Comment RichardP
RichardP's picture

Twenty three states require a judge to be part of the foreclosure process.  In those states particularly, the current owner of the mortgage device must be the one to request foreclosure (or the current owner of the mortgage could grant agency to an entity which could request foreclosure).  How do we know that the current owner of the mortgage is actually the current owner?  We can't, unless we can trace ownership back to the original entity that loaned the money in exchange for a mortgage.  This chain of ownership must be clear to the judge before he will grant the request for foreclosure.  In many instances, the documents that set out this chain of ownership are not in the folder and were never recorded, as is required by law.

Remember, the judge will respond to a request for foreclosure only to the owner of the mortgage.  If you cannot prove to his satisfaction who the current owner of the mortgage is, he will not grant the request for foreclosure.  When ownership of a mortgage has been sliced and diced into hundreds of mortgage backed securities (MBS's), proving ownership to a judge becomes complicated.  Rather than having their attempts to foreclose dismissed by the judge, the banks are opting to try to get their missing/incorrect paperwork put into order.  Since the judges in these 23 states are now watching, the paperwork will need to be verified by a notary public (the original documents were also supposed to be verified by a notary public).  If the original documents do not exist, it becomes a question of how to get forged documents past the notary public.  And how to cover up the fact that multiple transfers of ownership were never recorded as required.

That is a rough overview of what the problem is.  In states other than the 23, states which do not require a judge to be part of the foreclosure process, there is less chance of the foreclosures being blocked - even though the same problems exist in those states.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 22:39 | Link to Comment John Bigboote
John Bigboote's picture

Thank you.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 21:33 | Link to Comment treemagnet
treemagnet's picture

23 states because for now, its still referred to as "states rights".  Obama's got his best people on it, no states rights is the goal.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 21:36 | Link to Comment williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

MEET DANNY DROID

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 22:26 | Link to Comment Cammy Le Flage
Cammy Le Flage's picture

TWO WORDS FUCKTARDS.     TWO.     DEUSTCHE BANK ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

holds the "trusts" for all of those big boys.  I know.  That is why I did not pay those fucktards the 50K on my 350K loan that I paid some entity 170K cash for (lawyer with finance contacts and a clue - daddy in the game with the bankersters....so I took advantage of my inside information (family) to fuck them (but there is not a law I broke.  I did not "profit" even though I benefitted...ca difference  --   I had to.  My family did not give me any money ever.  Ever fucking ever.  Broke with a rich name and no drug habit or arrest.  Have fun with that.  People ask you for shit you do not have all the time.)......Deustche Bank "in the care of, for the benefit of...."  well, my pussy obviously.   Losers.  We are on to them.   They is upset about it.    Deustche Bank took MY deposition.  I am the Defendant.   And they lost in it.    The atty for Akerman was so ready to cry.   Can you imagine?  Going to law school for all those years just to do stupid foreclosure bullshit.    He was so bored.    Thanks for catching on.    Thank you Zero Hedge.    The Dominoe game just got interesting.   Maybe you other folk will learn why latins play dominoes.......Maybe...

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 22:37 | Link to Comment Hephasteus
Hephasteus's picture

Deustche Bank will never live to see 2012.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 22:41 | Link to Comment Cammy Le Flage
Cammy Le Flage's picture

It already dead.   Just spread the "love".......motherfuckers.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 22:42 | Link to Comment Cammy Le Flage
Cammy Le Flage's picture

This is fight club.  Is it not?   I did not make the "rules".

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 23:12 | Link to Comment Fearless Rick
Fearless Rick's picture

First, I want to say I WIN. I live in a foreclosed home which I inherited from my father. Not my loan, but now MY HOUSE. Thank you Angelo Mozillo (Cuntrywide mtg, now owned by BofA)

Jesus, I thought ZH people had brains. First, 23 states means those states which have laws requiring judicial foreclosure. The rest of the states, you don't need to go through a court to foreclose.

Now, for those of you who think this is no big deal or was planned by the banks, PLEASE GET A LIFE! The only way this was planned was if it came from the very, very top of the food chain, like the people who run the White House (please, Obama really has no power. He's a puppet to the MONEY). There is also no good way out of this for any of the following: The banks, the investors, the municipalities in which the properties are located who are getting no property tax payments, the courts (completely overwhelmed - prepare to see many long-standing judges retire because they don't need the headaches), the American banking system, the Federal Reserve, the federal government. What will be standing at the end of all of this are the states - the backbone of the nation. The feds can do much, but they cannot change state banking laws.

Everybody is screwed by this. Winners include homeowners who stopped paying mortgages, some very few, very smart real estate speculators (there's money to be made here, but it's a bitch to get to it and may take years before profits are realized).

Further, this is the blackest black swan ever. BofA, now the third bank to admit fraud, holds the largest number of mortgages, because they took over Cuntrywide. They are Fu**ed, fu**ed, fu**ed royally. It will literally take years (think 3 to 5 to 7) for all of this to get through the courts. The banks will not even prosecute in most cases because the costs are so high and the risks so great.

Now, the investors, who are they? Little towns in Sweden, other municipalities in the US. Some credit unions, some rich guys in Malaysia, they are spread all over the world. The investors will be taking hits of magnificent proportions. Huge, enormous calamity with great deals of money being eviscerated.

BofA is the crow in the coal mine - not a canary, because they are so big. BofA is NOT TBIF and are already planning their glidepath to bankruptcy. They've been insovent since having (note they were forced by the govt. and the Fed - Paulson) to take over Cuntrywide and Merrill Lynch. Both bankrupt entities.

They're dead, just nobody knows it yet. If the stock market doesn't crash before the midterms, then something is seriously wrong and the people need to rise up and throw all of the fuckers out because this is the end. There was fraud on the front end and now fraud on the back end. If the USA avoids going into martial law, I will be surprised.

Now, I don't normally do this because I don't like treading on other people's turf, but I am going to link to my last two entries on my MoneyDaily blog. Mind you, I try to write things so the average joe or jane can understand and have been diligent, writing daily for the past 3 1/2 years.

These two articles should give you some background and the links lead to places with more info. I've been following this story for 3 years and lately with more interest because I have a vested interest ($80,000 home which I may end up owning free and clear) Here goes:

Should American Homeowners Stop Paying Mortgages?

and today

Mortgage, Foreclosure Mess Broadens, Deepens

Sun, 10/03/2010 - 10:37 | Link to Comment GoingLoonie
GoingLoonie's picture

Good presentation and truthful man.  Enjoyed it.  I am making guillotines to be used in the up rising.  Wise people should be pulling dollars out of the system and saving gold and silver.

 

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 23:19 | Link to Comment Fearless Rick
Fearless Rick's picture

Cammy, Deutsche Bank +1000. They got reamed hard in a number of cases and are suing BofA among others. They are royally screwed by all this and they know it.

Fri, 10/01/2010 - 23:58 | Link to Comment Occams Parsimony
Occams Parsimony's picture

Excellent Summary Richard. The end game of course is who does not own the house that they bought from the bank that didn't own it in the first place. Feel the paper blizzard coming! Fannie and Freddie will transfer agency rights to the banks that did the foreclosures to plug the gap. Can anybody say back dated documents three times :) ROFL Better yet how about three times times 23 states. Aunty Emm its a twister.

Wait till this twister hits the courts.

1. What do you mean I don't own my property.

2. What do you mean the bank I bought it from didn't own the property.

3. What do you mean you are not sure how many owners currently own my property.

4. Why should I pay for title search, didn't I do that already.

5. "Shlock house and theft, can I help you". "Hi is David in?"

"Please hold". "Hi David here". "Hey David its Biggy Johnson". Can you please talk to this bank manager and give the local Civil Court a call". "Thanks Guy"

Can you feel the lawyers salivating yet.

Sat, 10/02/2010 - 03:05 | Link to Comment Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

 - nice.

Sat, 10/02/2010 - 02:02 | Link to Comment redpill
redpill's picture

No wonder banks have been dumping properties on the market for $50/sq ft under the going market rate for the past several years, they realized they need to unload them before the sand runs out of the hour glass.

Sat, 10/02/2010 - 09:37 | Link to Comment arthur darrell
arthur darrell's picture

Since the FDIC and signers of short sales are providing the banks with as much as 80 cents on the 2006 appraised value of mortgages this is ultimately problematic for Uncle Sam since banks will have less funds to buy treasuries at auction & at 10x leverage. Bank earnings ( now THAT is an oxymoron ) are negative nonexistent and a complete joke, Wall St analysts have their heads up their rectums.

Sat, 10/02/2010 - 10:23 | Link to Comment bugs_
bugs_'s picture

Now at 40 hours per workweek with two weeks of vacation and 8000 signatures per month that works out to be 4 signatures every 5 minutes.

Man!  what a sweatshop!

Sat, 10/02/2010 - 12:33 | Link to Comment Grand Supercycle
Grand Supercycle's picture

Updated GOLD monthly chart:

http://stockmarket618.wordpress.com

Sat, 10/02/2010 - 18:16 | Link to Comment Precious
Precious's picture

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Sun, 10/03/2010 - 10:19 | Link to Comment GoingLoonie
GoingLoonie's picture

If I, or my Company did this as a small businessman the Feds would throw me in jail and throw away the key.  But if you are a big bank, I guess there are no laws.

Tue, 10/05/2010 - 17:26 | Link to Comment Geoff-UK
Geoff-UK's picture

Not if you rented Chris Dodd and Barney Frank for a year or two--then you're in.

Wed, 02/23/2011 - 03:44 | Link to Comment shawnlee
shawnlee's picture

Another BlackSwan: Employee Statistics

If you are rewarded [[pay,bonus, benefits,etc] according to a statistic [how many foreclosure docs you sign or authorize per month], you will push the statistic.

E.g. A CEO gets a bonus if profits increase. The CEO cuts-back on maintenance and thus cost-savings of no-maintenance goes directly into gross profits. CEO gets fat bonus. Few years later factory collapses...or the next CEO has factory collapse because, surprise!, poor maintenance practices. Etc.

Hired CEOs push-and-deliver on the statistic that determines their reward. They hollow-out the enterprise.

thanks for sharing

armani watches|1Y0-A15|352-001|tiffany pendant

Tue, 03/22/2011 - 04:12 | Link to Comment shawnlee
shawnlee's picture

E.g. A CEO gets a bonus if profits increase. The CEO cuts-back on maintenance and thus cost-savings of no-maintenance goes directly into gross profits. CEO gets fat bonus. Few years later factory collapses...or the next CEO has factory collapse because, surprise!, poor maintenance practices. Etc.alpina watches - and 1 watches - android watch - seiko watches - citizen watches - women’s watches - casio watches

Tue, 05/31/2011 - 00:52 | Link to Comment kummar
kummar's picture

The Frenchies are whining because they might have to work to 62 before they can retire, and you would think that they are being asked to work to the death.That's because they know if you give the devils an inch, they're gonna take a fucking mile. We haven't gotten that smart yet unfortunately000-118 \ 642-457 \ 650-568 \ 642-731 \ 350-050 \ Pass4sure 352-001 \ 642-062 \ pass4sure 000-115 \ 642-262 \ 642-072

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