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Bloomberg's "Chart Of The Day" Is The Latest Amusing Attempt To Create A Gold Selling Frenzy
The barrage to get investors to dump their gold is on in full force, after one after another media outlet takes turns to guarantee that a day of profit taking in an asset that two days ago was trading at its time highs, and experienced an uninterrupted 30% run in the past year, means the rally is over pretty much in perpetuity. The motive is clear: get people to abandon the safety of hard assets and throw their lot into the ponzi scheme, based on one week of minimal inflows following endless outflows after the first and certainly not last Flash Crash. The latest such attempt comes courtesy of Bloomberg's chart of the day, whose disturbed logic is just left of alchemy. To wit: the shares outstanding of the GLD etf have declined, therefore you must acquit, or dump your gold. Immediately. And we wish we were kidding.
From Bloomberg:
Gold investors are showing “a lack of conviction” about the potential for further price gains after a decade-long surge, according to Vadim Zlotnikov, Sanford C. Bernstein & Co.’s chief market strategist.
The CHART OF THE DAY illustrates how Zlotnikov drew his conclusion: by comparing the price and shares outstanding for the SPDR Gold Trust, the world’s biggest exchange-traded fund backed by gold bullion.
While the ETF’s price climbed 13 percent from the end of June through yesterday, the total number of fund shares dropped by 2.8 percent. There were 421.7 million shares as of yesterday, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.
The decline contrasted with a trend since 2007 in which gold prices and the share count rose together, Zlotnikov wrote today in a report. The trust’s outstanding stock almost tripled during the period as gold soared to records, capping the metal’s five-fold increase in the past decade.
“We have been observing some loss of steam behind gold ETF inflows,” he wrote. “It seems particularly noteworthy” that the Federal Reserve’s decision to carry out a second round of bond purchases, or quantitative easing, failed to boost demand for the SPDR shares, the report said.
The gold trust creates and redeems stock in blocks of 100,000 shares, known as baskets, by trading with authorized institutional investors. The number of shares outstanding peaked at 433.9 million at the end of last year’s second quarter.
Next up: Bloomberg's chart of tomorrow, will show why the color of the solar wind as interpreted by Bob Doll, means today's freak red close will be the one and only correction of the year.
As for gold, investors are hardly concerned. After all, Buy the Fucking Dip works for other asset classes, not just stocks.
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Think USSR ca. 1985.
The last 4 years were painful.
The Ruble didn't buy anything of value. The government had fixed prices on almost everything BUT the vendors wouldn't accept the Ruble for anything of value from food to clothing to electronics to PMs.
The people knew it and had lost all faith in government, the currency and their pay cheques.
Maybe I'll sell my "party tooth" now...
I'll still have my Colt 40 Malt Liquor!
The dollar is strong! Gold should go down alot more as it becomes obvious that the low in the dollars was 6 months ago! IT IS ONE THING TO TALK ABOUT THE END OF THE WORLD IT IS QUITE ANOTHER TO TRADE LIKE IT. I know the arguments traded the trend for 10 years and now say it is an overcrowded, overowned trade that will end it tears.
That big rally in the dollar in 2008 barely shows up on a long term chart. Gold has rallied on as all currencies are printed into oblivion. It is one thing to pretend unbacked paper has value as money. It is quite another to trade like it.
Dollar is strong, my ass. I see how weak it is every time I go to the grocery store or the gas station.
Being out of high school and drafted and sent to Vietnam, I had no prior knowledge of war, the military, etc. After one month in the field, I had a gut feeling that we would never prevail in this conflict and on April 30th 1975, I was proven right. Not being an economist, nor one who spends much time on financials, I have that same gut feeling about the dollar - it's not going to prevail.
Is it me or was it clear that the trades of the year were in commodities, not stocks? Gold being very attractive since it also doubles as money?
How hard is this?
seems like the tricks are running out of possibilities, no?
I have long thought a reduction in GLD holdings and float would signal the start of the biggest part of the rally. GLD is the only place to get any physical, if they actually have any. It makes sense they would get drained on the way up.
If gold is a bubble, then so are equities. We got nothing but debt and fiat, and no real growth. So if you are telling me it's 2008 all over again, since it's fundamentally worse, AAPL shall be halved.
Hmmm
Apple earns money. Billions of it. Gold earns teeth for rappers.
AAPL makes worthless, borrowed fiatso's from a toothless, doomed consumer. What is it you don't understand?
(d)
If gold is worthless then why are the Chinese buying as much physical as they can get?
If Shit > Fan, good luck trading your ipad for something to eat.
Sell your pm's now! The elevator down is much faster than the stairwell up! You may lose everything if you get greedy! Lock in your gains! I am calling a top!
Thank you, I needed that.
Now...if you can kindly point me to other tops, I will short accordingly.
Hmmm.
Jan 1, 2009 - $476 million
Jun 1, 2010 - $1 billion
Dec 31, 2010 - $1.5 billion
These are the dollars committed by private investors to their GoldMoney accounts.
http://goldmoney.com/news/goldmoney-holdings-pass-1-billion-usd-mark.html
So it took about 18 months for GoldMoney to attract half a billion in 2009 & 2010.
The next half billion was deposited in 6 months.
These accounts are a pain to set up because of the positive ID requirements and they have fees and pay no interest.
Do those numbers or rates of change look like a lack of conviction to anyone?
Those guys featured on King World News must be a little embarrassed after what happened today.
Nobody said to take profits.
Nobody.
It was all "Buy, Buy, Buy" and "Don't wait for a correction, just buy"....
Pretty much a dead lock that a sharp selloff was inevitable.
Go fuck yourself already, you terminally ADD-afflicted, ultra-short-term idiot.
Has it ever entered your Jim Cramer-esque brain (an oxymoron, I know) that for many, if not most of us here, the daily ups and downs in the gold market, or in any market, are fucking irrelevant to the LONG-TERM view, and to the bigger picture of the corrupt and failing status-quo financial and monetary systems, and to our desires to protect our savings by holding our wealth outside of those failing systems?
And I DARE you to respond to this post --- or to ANYONE'S! But no, that would take more than just posting quick one-liner flyby flaming posts, and a modicum of spine and the ability to engage in intelligent rebuttal (or to just engage, period), neither of which you have ever shown youself to posess in the least bit.
Come on Akak, let Robo enjoy his day, he's been waiting desperately to let out some of his anti-gold kool aid. Unfortunately for me, nobody drinks it anymore, everybody is waiting for the dips to buy more. Am officially a discredited bitch
The only enjoyment I would be willing to grant to RobotLemming and to all the blinkered, short-term, amoral apologists for evil like him (and Leo, can't forget Leo!) is an uninterrupted existence behind bars for the rest of their lives, or preferably, the peace of the grave.
JonNadler, meet topcallingtroll.
topcallingtroll, meet JonNadler.
...
JN, play your cards right maybe you can get Blythe to be the discredited bitch. That would make my day, yours too I bet...
I happen to have a lot of gold stocks in an IRA account, which I can't trade actively. I am desperate to unload those stocks at the right time so I can buy banks and retailers on the next washout low.
These stocks were bought back in 2004 when I was listening and believing in all the perma-gloomer shilling about hyper-inflation, and I have stuck with them ever since.
I spend way too much time and attention trading my other taxable accounts, and I ignored that particular IRA account.
But one day, I'll dump those stocks for good and keep my cash to buy Fed-supported and sponsored sectors the next time the market comes out of a severe correction or bear market.
I am impressed --- you for once actually responded (sort of) to somebody else's comment!
But your post is so absurd in its supposed deathwish desire to dump gold stocks only to pile into retail and megabank equities, that I can only assume that you made it purely in jest, or to simply goad us further. If not, God help you.
I said the plan was to raise cash and wait for the next washout low.
At that time, I will dive head first into banking and retail stocks.
Never again will I believe the hype that gold stocks will outperform everything else when the Fed prints money.
Retail stocks and consumer stocks surged the most on this last run from March 2009.
Oh, by the way, I am also experiencing "scroomers remorse" by not being fully invested in junk bond paper instead of gold stocks in that IRA acccount.
At least I would be receiving a great yield instead of the paltry 5 cent dividends paid on a handful of gold stocks.
This one is now paying 7.6%, with very little volatility.
I guess you believe that the financial and monetary status-quo is not only defensible, but safe and sustainable in the long run --- I happen to believe none of those things. Until some semblance of sanity returns to our political and financial institutions (not to mention the rule of law), I will boycott playing in Wall Street's sandbox full of cat turds, broken glass and hair-trigger land mines.
Quit your whining.
What if there is no Fed after next washout?
Sounds like BS to me -- if you don't want gold then why aren't you rolling the IRA over into some other funds?
@RoboPoser - please never buy physical gold or silver. It will be more fun to watch you go down with your burning paper mache "assets". LOL!
I bought the last of my silver at 24 and the last of my gold at 1250. I might be tempted to buy a big correction, but I'm good for now. I did pick up a 2008 W Burnished 1 oz Platinum Eagle for 200 over spot (mintage about 2800). That was a special situation and platinum and palladium are much more rare than gold.
I was going to buy more silver at 25. Knew I should have done it. Now I'll never get any under 32 an ounce with the fees. But the good news is the uncirculated collector crap I bought for 28 is now going for 38.
Hope you are doing well IK.
I'd loved to see you morons try and sell your precious coins. Who is gonna buy them from you? eBay?
BUY retail.
SELL Craigslist.
Sounds like a great plan for profit! Or you could go to a dealer and get 50 cents on the dollar.
wow, that's a point. how do you sell at a profit, if you're not a dealer? then you have to pay more in capital gains tax, too, than if you sold stock. i don't know.
With the only ones trading stocks and buying bonds in substantial quantity being the members of the SquidFace club of primary dealers with Uncle Ben as the conductor, the daily management of perception economics (MOPE) group lead by Summers and his cohorts from the SquidFace club, the intelligent money and retail is selling every rally and it seems every day foreign and other investors are selling bonds. While the SquidFaces have a lot of buying power as they control the funny money operations, we are seeing normal January re-weighting in the commodity index based funds and of course the Summerites and the MOPE practitioners orchestrating there normal spin job, January offers an other excellent entry point for precious metals and other commodities of course. If smart money isn't buying stocks or bonds and they don't trust federal reserve notes backed by treasuries, which are backed by .... paper, it seems straight forward that gold is the natural repository for long term wealth preservation and given the massive long term price suppression, near and mid term growth.
Silver on the other hand has its own massively bullish fundamentals because there is just one hell of a lot less of stuff than their used to be and the uses for it are increasing every year as it has become an indispensable and still dirt cheap material for all sorts of technological, health and manufacturing applications, besides RFID.
In 1940, there were about 10 billion ounces of silver above ground in the world, with about half of that in the possession of the US Government. Back then there was approximately one billion ounces of gold.
In 1940, silver inventory was ten times more than gold. Now, over 60 years later and after massive longer term consumption of silver by an increasing number of technological applications which use silver in such a way that is not possible to practically recycle the material, the once large inventory of silver built up over hundreds and even thousands of years; and the relationship of how much silver exists above ground compared to gold has flipped dramatically.
Now there is far more above ground gold left in the world than silver and unlike gold, silver is largely mined only as a byproduct of the mining of industrial metals. There are currently up to 5 times more gold in the world than silver, depending on the way inventory is defined.
Silver inventories have declined from 10 billion ounces in 1940 to 1 billion today and the same non-recyclable applications of this immensely useful metal continue to eat away at supply as does the increasing awareness that silver never stopped being real money, hard cold cash. In my opinion silver is the rarest of the precious metals, both in inventory and in its usefulness in industry and as a long term store of wealth.
Silver isn't just "Loose Change", its real money.
Duffminster
I agree with Robo, gold will be 250 by year's end HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
(d)
I shot Dave Wilson an email suggesting big players are moving their capital out of GLD into physical metal. David Einhorn was on Bloomberg not a couple of weeks ago explaining why he sold his GLD...he can save most of the 40bps GLD charges in annual expenses. I took delivery of some silver and it's costing me about 24bps for storage and I don't own the warehouse like Einhorn. So if this is the case, the metal is getting into stronger and stronger hands. They're thinking long term.
All this talk of physical silver, the best deal is junk. Miniscule premium of $.20 over spot or .67%
http://www.gainesvillecoins.com/products/156131/%281%2c000Face%29Bagof90...
You want junk silver nearby for small transactions in the future.
G
Nope. Eagles or Maples. Junk silver is good if your old man collected it in the 50's and gave it to you as a present.
I don't believe in that "small transaction nonsense."
Instead:
Jack Daniels 1000 cases
Marlboro's 10,000 cartons (don't worry about freshness, nicotine won't degrade so fast)
Unmentionable items (figure it out)
Your little dimes and quarters? Please!
Yeah spend your money on that stuff & you'll be in fine shape.
(d)
The tobacco shop man told me that frozen cigars stored in sealed bags @ 70% humidity can be stored for a long time.
Little silver dimes & quarters will work fine, too.
agree.
there will be barter for the "small transactions" - as there is even now.
no need to pay premiums on small coins now, trade your FRN's for what YOU use daily, store/stockpile, and know that those things will be trade-able when necessary - meantime, you can always use 'em yourself, and you just know the prices will continue to rise, eh. . .
I'm buying the dips like it's a Chinese holiday. Speaking of which... the Chinese goobermint must be celebrating everytime this happens. By the way, what is Mandarin for "Buy the fucking dip"?
Where do I go to buy one share of RobotTrader?
(laughing smiley)
WTF I'm the only guy on the board that is open to the fact theat gold can go down!! OMG! SELL SELL SELL
The only thing apparently open on you is your sphincter.
Which will come in handy when the Bernank and his megabank cronies come from behind to ravage you --- once again.
Why don't you just keep your dumbshit trollspamming in one comment?
Really amazing how the trolls come out the instant there is a reletively small dip in gold. This happens all the time, it just hasn't happened recently.
There will be no end to the gold bull while Bernanke yet draws breath.
akak:
"The only thing apparently open on you is your sphincter."
LOL! I believe the French would say: Touche'!
...
tmosley:
I quite agree re the gold bull runs until The Bernank is out of there. Don't let the trolls ruin your last meal though (Non illegitimi carborundum), just go and buy some more gold! Felt good today...
It's been a while since I've seen so many trolls. But then, it's been a while since gold had a significantly down day, so they all have to come out and tell us the bull market is over with no reasoning.
I'm probably just pissed because I won't have cash to buy more until next week. Silver will probably $34 by then.
didn't the white house, just decide to pay bloggers billions? now you know where they are working
Buy paper and sell gold...ok!
When Hell threatens to rain down from all quarters, financial and geopolitical, you build your nest-egg with pms not paper.
And if you don't see Hell right around the corner, you got more problems than your portfolio.
Cool & savvy cats are hip to possible fraud (not much REAL gold in GLD and some other ETFs), thus are buying gold/silver producers!
Some producers ARE making big profits NOW! Even at $1200 gold and $20 silver (unlikely) some precious metal producers will continue to make decent profits!
No wonder GLD inflows are lagging! GDXJ shows where money is flowing into the PM sector.
So sayeth the Fox.
Gold, silver, and copper are getting slammed in Asia again.
But New Zealand stocks are on the brink of making new highs for the move?
Robot, you know you always confuse me when you post a chart with an x-axis of more than 30 minutes! Don't clutter my brain with what happened yesterday or two days ago --- all I want to know is what is happening RIGHT NOW!
(/sarcasm)
Robo is a serial divestor, that is, pumping up while looking to buy down.
This reminds me of the commercial with the central banks of the world printing money in piles. Gosh, I can't for the life of me think of the advertisement now---but the piles of money being printed by all central banks isn't conducive to gold going in the tank like it did in the 80's.
Saw it on CNBS.
Cdad, you slime ball:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIb6AZdTr-A
As a gold bull since 2003, even I am mightily amused by the vitriol of the bugs when they feel threatened. If I owned AAPL at $32 and saw it correct from $142 to $137, I would yawn. The bugs see a similar odd-lot downtick and they unleash a torrent of insidious bile accusing the planet of conspiracy. I will buy more on a move to $132. And if anyone dares to talk down my gold, may the fleas of a thousand camels....
Cdad, I will never forget, U had a choice,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYXKlUob5Zg&NR=1&feature=fvwp
Good time to buy more gold and silver.
Tough call, before close will (did) give you better. Scru the absolute bottom. and screw Cdad.
Whatever the outlook may be for Gold in particular and commodites in general, there is no way that you can refute the fact that the BDI has slipped to a new multiyear low and commodites across the board have now dropped for the 2nd day in a row (Jan 5th) with Lumber going limit down....hmmmmmm??
http://chart.ly/f23csat
SO now our enemies are not only the FED but the LAME STREAM MEDIA!!!
I think a "hit list" is in order.
Cdad, you are obviously slow...
All those in favor of PM's, scru Cdad!
I hear it's nice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i95DUucUFrI&feature=related
I think it may be useful to view the collection of media managed by Bloomberg non-monolithically. There is Bloomberg Television's positively Pravda-esdque pumpmonkeyism (or dumpmonkeyism, in the case of gold or silver) alongside the actual journalism being committed by Bloomberg proper in its transparency suits against Fed and ECB. Apparently there are individuals with journalistic independence at Bloomberg, so it pays to discriminate mediumistically. It's a pity the journalistic ethos driving the Fed and ECB suits is not applied consistently across the organization. But there you go. BBTV in Hong Kong is only watcheable in the morning (because of Susan Li) and with the sound turned off. Bloomberg counter that defense with those Orwellian ticker tape headline stubs, which you can only get rid of by placing masking tape on the bottom inch of the screen. Or turning the whole damn thing off. But then, no Susan Li. But I digress. Bloomberg: an amalgam of excellence and excrescence.
Oh yeah! Susan Li...I even leave the sound on.
Copper, bitchez. The Canadian government is collecting all the pennies. Pre-1997 are 97% copper, worth double face value. Start beggin on the street now!
Or, Uranium for the unscrupulous investor. Putin likes it, it must be cool.
Save your copper pennies.
I like gold as much as the next guy but stories like this sound desperate. Gold will rise and FALL just like any other asset. Its just an investment, don't marry it.
Not nearly as many of us would "marry it" if not for the alternative of being forced into an arranged wedding to the syphilitic, acne-scarred, one-toothed, meth-smoking niece (named "Dollar") of the shotgun-toting Bernanke.
Coulding be a better time to buy gold as an investment.... It's outperformed pretty much every asset over the last "lost decade" with returns of almost 500%. Buy low sell high baby!!!!!!
Miners and leasers. TRE underperformed.
Probably cuz that prevert Cdad wasn't around.
If the shortage if coins and physicak metal makes you want to won gold instead of sell it then you're a SUCKER and you might as well donate your money away to charity before it ends up as some prop traders bonus
Be nice if that prevert Cdad could call some Fx plays, cuz I gots nothing yet.
But Cdad can't even call his own dick, cuz he is it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvT_pzN2UHA
"Our analysis suggests" Sanford C. Bernstein and their analysts suck big fat donkey dick like hungry little veal calves. Gulp, Gulp, Gulp!
EDIT: I have no opinion on whether bernstein is right or wrong on gold. I do know they chug cock.
Zbig prostrating the US to China on Bloomberg.
In a rational world, rational people would read the comments section of this thread and consider the possibility that a cult has formed, with the faithful going out of their way to reinforce each other's belief and prove their devotion, like the Filipino's who have themselves nailed to crosses at Easter, or Shi'ites who whip themselves into a bloody pulp during Ashura. On this thread, many feel compelled to announce to the flock that their faith is so unwavering and they are buying even more. CD can write about that one far better than me; I just know that there is something not quite right about it.
In Islamabad yesterday, the governor of the Pakistan side of Punjab was assassinated by one of his security detail, the reason being that the governor took exception to the blasphemy laws that call for execution for anyone insulting Islam. The assassin thought the laws were not only just fine, but also that they were dictated by a higher power. He was fanatical in his beliefs, and did not take kindly to anyone who might challenge what he needed to believe was truth.
The mindset of the "faithful" security man is the same as the mindset of the PM crowd: there is only one "truth", and they know what it is. Two sides of the same Eagle, so to speak. For me, I limit the truths I am willing to accept to things like gravity, especially when I am standing on high ground. Everything else is either a belief or an opinion, subject to change.
The belief in gold, though it certainly had wavered when I bought mine back in 1999, with a 50 cent premium per troy ounce, is certainly older than (the belief in) Allah, and may be older than anybody's religion, but it is still only a faith. It is still a confidence game. Gold's value is not absolute. It is hardly a necessity of life. It has a track record, and a damn good one, but the long term is not how we all live. We live eighty, maybe a hundred years. The trick is to try to overlap one's existence with whatever happens to be the store of value and means of exchange while one spends that brief moment above ground. Maybe gold fills the bill. Maybe not. Past performance is no guarantee.
I read an interesting article in the Times of India a week or two ago. The title was something to the effect of "As India Develops, Gold Loses its Luster". Got me thinking, it did, as the billion one hundred million in India have long been among gold's biggest fans. They also developed Buddhism, but tossed it off and exported it in favor of Hinduism. Things do, indeed, change. Even "truths".
In the wide divide between the commenters here and, for example, the oft maligned Robo, there might be a place to stand. I'm going to assume there is, and I'm planting my feet there so that I might hear both sides. The extremes, both of them, are just too noisy.
There is no denying that the producers of fiat are running at peak capacity utilization, and like China and its factories and office space, are building more of what is not needed. Clearly that is a plus for gold and silver (plus the plat group), though it is also a plus for arable land.
But what's the endgame?
A gold standard? Not workable. A dream, or so I think. Why? Gold is neither owned nor distributed equally in the world. The power to enforce one's desires or extend influence does not necessarily correlate with gold ownership. The US may be the world's largest (stated) holder with 8200 tonnes, but other nations with strong militaries, nuclear weapons, relatively powerful economies, etc., are not exactly flush with the yellow metal. They are not about to let an accident of distribution dictate their economic or political future. They are not going to sit down at the IMF or the UN or anywhere else and willingly let some backwater resource rich nation tell them how to issue currency or limit their economic growth. At best they would opt out of a gold standard, at worst they would attack South Africa or eastern Siberia or northeastern Burma. Maybe even Canada.
Then there is the "gold backed currency" itself. How many of the commenters on this article believe even a tenth of what their own government says? I'll bet 5% of the commenters here believe the US still has 8200 tonnes of gold at Ft. Knox. Yet if the world returns to a gold standard, all will suddenly believe what the USG or IMF says regarding who owns what and what backs the new gold dollars and gold euros and gold yen? The same argument would hold true if large private gold owners issued their own currencies. Suddenly all would accept Goldman Sachs Dollars or S(euro)s?
Okay, some might say, the PM's themselves will be used as a means of exchange rather than paper which can be printed in excess or even counterfeited.
How many of you are experts at doing assays? If gold goes to (the equivalent of) $50K and silver to $400, how large would the piece of metal be for a purchase of a jug of milk down at the 7-11? Would the pimply-faced teen working behind the counter, the one who heats up your chilidog and pours your Slurpy, also be able to test the almost microscopic crumb of gold you want to use to pay? Can he make change?
So what does that leave? PM's show their true metal when the stuff really hits the fan and society suffers a meltdown, some might argue. Good luck with that, unless your name is Erik Prince and you've got battle-trained, heavily armed troops to back you up. At such times of chaos, things other than heavy metals might prove to be more important, too. In a peaceful world people might like to possess vintage Ferraris, Willem de Kooning artwork, and a stash of shiny metal bars, but in a world gone mad there will be other concerns and other priorities. There may not be too many people who lust after things shiny.
It has been said that the unexamined life is not worth living. One might also say that the unexamined belief is not worth having.
Gold and its cousins might well prove to be the Holy Grail. I don't know. Like I said, I am on that middle ground between the believers and the apostates. Some of you have no doubt already thought through the points, however irrational you might believe them to be, of what I have written here, and can educate me. I'll wait patiently and be ready to learn.
I am not saying sell nor saying buy; I am merely saying that taking a step back to question one's beliefs is not such a bad thing. The comments in this thread could have a few words changed here and there and fit perfectly into Friday's sermon at the Death to Anybody Who Says Mine is not a Religion of Peace Mosque. That in and of itself should make people pause to reflect.
The world lives a lie, we don't. You jealous?
The world was living a lie back in 1999, too. Perhaps we did our buying at different times, but I don't remember seeing you at the gold window back then.
So, how much did you lose last year, precisely?
I was up 83%.
Money talks. You don't listen. You'll get what you deserve. Take your cult bullshit and stick it up your ass. You don't like it? Get out.
Pardon me for thinking I was raising legitimate points and concerns. Apparently there is no room for questioning the absolutes. Contrary to your statement, I DO listen. More importantly, I question. That has always served me well.
I own some gold. I have not bought any since 1999. I used to buy it in Hong Kong when HSBC used to have a gold window in their old branch in Central. They had it in coins, tical bars, and COMEX delivery-sized bars. I was always the only one in line, and the teller was usually reading a book. I don't think he was their most important employee. I always felt I was inconveniencing him. From $1200 and above I have been periodically liquidating to lower its percent of my net worth. I am not especially concerned with my return right now (congrats on your 83%), but rather just capital preservation. With a combination of arable land around the globe, some PM's, and cash, I figure I can weather any storm short of Mako's worldwide cyclone. I have been planning my retirement and my bug-out since the late 1970's when I was still a schoolboy. I realized back then I did not know everything. I am even more aware of that now, which is why I hedge my bets and diversify.
I believe I was rather moderate in my post, but I do think that any neutral outside observer who reads this entire thread would see that there is something going on in the minds of many of the gold devotees that might prove unhealthy.
Perhaps you are looking for an echo chamber and got insulted when I sang a sour note. I do not think that is what the original Zerohedge was intended to be, but it certainly is what it has become.
Mosley is a troll on payroll.
A very good one, too!
He is so well read...
Both of you need to get out of all long gold and silver positions immediately. All of those who own it are cult members, crazies, and morons. Ben Bernanke is the second coming of Christ, and is doing God's work on Earth. Own only dollars, and other things the Fed tells you to buy.
Me thinks the lady doth protest too much.
While I admit to having had Bernanke as an econ prof, we do not exchange seasonal cards, and I would like nothing better than to see him regain his university tenure, albeit at Beijing University. In another thread I even volunteered one of my remaining gold bars to offer him a Cortes Cocktail, though that was in a moment of pique.
Maybe if you had two brain cells to rub together you might go elsewhere and ask whether or not anyone owns any gold. Poll 1000 people on the street, maybe ten of them will own gold, and nine of them will own it through GLD.
Tell me, do you really think you are being a reasonable, moderate person when you are calling people cult members?
Chew on that while you go fuck yourself.
I remember gold in '79 and '80. Public participation was minimal then, too, in fact people were selling family heirlooms. Gold still found a way to fall before the public got long to any great extent, though much of that was attributable to Henry Jarecki. I had the pleasure to sit in a make-shift brokerage at night in Jeddah and watch the Hunt's partners pool together large buy orders and push the market up better than Blithe can push it down. They got their collective butts kicked in the end, though lucky for them they lived in a corrupt society where cronyism allowed them to regain their monetary losses and prosper.
I also do not think the public participated much in oil's run-up to $147, even though it ran up from $10 or so over the decade. I'll bet not one in a hundred thousand owned it the entire time, and especially when it topped. It fell to $37 in short order. Go figure. Not all bubbles are created equal. The public is not a requirement.
I did not call a top. If I merely look at the price action, gold has been incredibly bullish for three years, shaking off each and every plunge to regain or surpass the highs. It may well do so again. I don't know. What I do know is that the verbiage, certainty, and easy outrage mustered against anyone who might question the omnipotence of gold---not by all, but by many---is another sign of a runaway market, and is the exact same behavior evidenced by fanatic believers. I got more than I expected out of my position, so I don't mind lightening up.
I prefer to use my limited brain cells rather than rub them together. I recall once you made mention of your own IQ. I smiled. Under controlled conditions---though many years ago---I scored higher, so those two brain cells seem to be of decent quality. Don't know if it ever did me much good, and it doesn't entitle me to any free lunches, but I'd rather have it than not. Anyway, there's always someone richer and smarter and more handsome, so I'm just going to be happy with what I've got.
Again, I think my post was measured in its tone. You disagree. That's fine. Your disagreement need not sink to the level of directed barnyard epithets and insults, especially if you possess the neuron power you claim.
"Not all bubbles are created equal. The public is not a requirement."
There you go!
"Your disagreement need not sink to the level of directed barnyard epithets and insults, especially if you possess the neuron power you claim."
Now what? Is Mosley going to apologize?
What on earth are you talking about? Lines at coin dealers were out the door and around the block! Further, that was NOT a bubble, but an aborted currency crisis. Remember stagflation? Same crisis. Gold and silver were stopped by raising interest rates to market rates. Today, that would cause the immediate default of the United States.
What is this about average people not participating in oil's run up? You never heard of a gas bank? http://www.consumersavvytips.org/are_gas_banks_the_answer_to_our_gas_woe...
You think the public didn't participate by buying shares in oil companies?
The verbiage is EXACTLY THE SAME as every other time in the last ten years that gold has had a bad day, and the top-calling shitheads have come out of the woodwork. Further, Zerohedge is NOT typical! Coming here to get a read on frothiness is like going to a MENSA meeting to determine average IQ, or an American Communist Party meeting to determine how the average person feels about government.
If you love dollars so much, feel free to "lighten your position", and don't worry about what happened to those who "took profits" in Weimar or Zimbabwe, or any of the hundred other hyperinflations that have happened in the last 100 years. Just get your paper.
I said it then, and I'll say it again now, IQ doesn't matter, at least not to adults. Karl Marx had a high IQ, but he fell victim to false premises and confirmation bias, just as you have. One of your big false premises is that Zerohedge is somehow "normal".
Your "tone" doesn't matter. You are accusing ALL of the good people here of being cultist, and you are UTTERLY IGNORING the massive battle raging between the gold bulls and the gold trolls! Of the 400 posts here, full 1/3rd are by those calling for gold to get "crushed" or some such nonsense. Funny, considering it is central banks doing a lot of hte buying. I don't think those guys are going to panic over a few dollars, considering they were buying at $1200.
But yeah, seriously, go sell your gold. It's going to zero, doncha know? Just ignore all the facts and fundamentals, and instead do the contrarian play that everyone is raving about. Initiative always comes to those who wait, as they say.
You Chindit 13, are the most reasonable poster that I have read here in my almost 3 yrs. of studying. I always look forward to any insights that you may infer into the subject at hand. Thank you so much for the Heartfelt inspiration to stop, listen and look around at the Forrest.
If you are liquidating gold to maintain the percentage it holds in your portfolio, then you aren't paying much attention.
This thread is an echo chamber. It echos with the voices of a thousand trolls ressurected from their multi-month long slumber by a single bad day in gold. Think about that. All of these people are calling it a top, just like they have been doing on every pullback for the last ten years. I'm tired of it, and you top calling trolls can all go fuck yourselves. Bunch of losers.
yeah i get everything you are saying and i was skeptical for a long time, too. however i have come to the conclusion that a fatal break has occured in peoples' confidence in the western economies, and there is going to be demand for gold for a long, long time. and how is the government going to rebuild that trust? give up all the lobbying money? give up the cozy relationships with the bankers? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, not in my lifetime.
"Gold's value is not absolute"...says it all. It is relative....to fiat paper.
The end-game, no one knows. The Weimar end-game was new paper, old paper holders were wiped out, gold-holders did relatively well.
I think your points for consideration are fair and well stated, however, the analogy is completely unfair. Most "gold bugs" have reasoned their way to a monetary belief system that stands apart from the crowd. Robert K Landis' work explains it best if you haven't read him, it might help you with your lingering doubts.
chindit13, a very nice reply, thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. I hope CogDis sees your comments, he would likely enjoy them too.
The Bearing, however, is completely convinced that PMs are a great investment as well as insurance. And you can know this by knowing that a big fat 8% of my assets are in PMs. So there!
Well thought.
Chindit, although you express doubts regarding the value of holding gold, you have done so here in the most thoughtful, rational, intelligent manner possible, and prove yourself to be the very antithesis of the many flyby, gold-slagging trolls we have seen here so many times. I would NEVER junk such a post, and thank you very much for raising the many pertinent points that you did.
Indeed, it is trite but true to state once again that there are NO guarantees in life, with gold as with anything else. Unfortunately, the surest thing I see in operation today and for the foreseeable future is the growing power, recklessness, and corruption of our political and financial leaders and elites, and it is in the attempt to at least partially shield ourselves from that corruption, abuse of power, and fraudulent and apparently unsustainable nature of our financial and monetary systems that so many of us have fled to the historically proven haven of gold. Yes, it might not prove to be as valuable a haven this time around --- but if not gold (and silver), then what?
Thank you. I see no point in drive-by shooting, so I try to either be thoughtful or humorous, as the circumstances dictate. I think---hope---that is the intended value of ZH.
I see all your arguments and am of a similar view. I see no way out of this current mess. I've done my share of swearing and object tossing as this entire fiasco has unfolded. I accept, however, that there might be a way out I don't see, which is why I diversify, and more importantly, why I constantly question my own beliefs. Obviously I may come back to a greater belief in PM's, and regret what I have sold in the last year.
The tone of this thread just shocked me in its uniformity and stridency, so I decided to write what I did and raise the issues that I have been mulling over in my own mind. Debate is good, is it not?
Yes, it is. And your points were all well-made and intelligently considered, and EVERYONE holding gold would be wise to ponder them; I can tell you that I frequently, if not daily, do as well.
For my part, it is not so much that I am in love with or obsessed with gold, as much as I am cognizant of, outraged, and depressed by the innumerable corrupt and kleptomaniacal actions of our political and financial overlords (I will NOT say leaders!). It is not so much that I feel drawn toward gold, as I am repelled by the corruption and unsustainable Ponzimania that I see in virtually every other market. I am often just one small step away from utter hopelessness, in fact. I guess owning gold is just the natural default position taken by those who would flee the entire collapsing arena built on broken promises, war, theft and lies.
Travel well.
Tread carefully. EVERYONE will be discovered as being TRUELY reasonable or pretending to be reasonable.
I see it this way. Building an empire is expensive and as it becomes more and more real you have to pay more and more for the cement to cure.
Look for the absolute worst congress money can buy. We have now gone 3 years past an inflection point where george bush decided not to become a dictator. We'll revisit that option next year.
"Yes, it might not prove to be as valuable a haven this time around --- but if not gold (and silver), then what?"
Why not get true gold?
17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.
18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”
Revelation 3
Yahweh is my Yireh.
I always take the time to read your posts chindit13, and while we may sometimes disagree, it's obvious you take the time to reflect before you hit *save* - as I feel you have here.
people obviously buy PM's for differing reasons, so I'll only speak for myself - if I have extra FEDclownbux at the "end of the day" I'd rather convert them into what feels more stable, and that's PMs. I haven't used banks (or plastic) for years now, prefer to make use of "monie" - now feels like a good time to store the paper trade in something more substantial. . .
and of course, there's the JPMorgue ongoing game that just feels good to play a part in undermining - even if it's a small one, and possible fictive.
I agree, "the unexamined belief is not worth having" - know thyself, eh?
best to you.
Points taken. But I still don't hear anybody arguing that Western economies are not on the verge of collapse without a painful exit.
Other economic crack-ups in the last 20 years: Mexico, Russia, Argentina, Venezuela, Sweden, Iceland, and the Asian crises. So it happens all the time. Gold was there to save their butts every time. We just never noticed because gold never went up in USD.
If the next one does involve the WRC, I expect it would make things worse. The case for gold has been tried and true by people who have been there before. It's silly to let their experience go to waste.
If it's going to be our turn, let's show them how it's done. The best prepared are the first to rebuild.
maybe because people are not buying the etf anymore but only physical gold? you guys have persuaded me and now i am waiting to buy the dip, he he he, i just have to go back to the store for the nero coin. it's too cool.
Tylers...'Ignore Button' pronto or I'm outta here!
You should learn what a bubble is before you start calling for one.
There is NO PARTICIPATION in this bull run, at least not by the public. The public is SELLING gold.
This is kindergarden level stuff here, guys.
But you know what? Sell. Sell it all. You losers who piss your pants at a single down day don't deserve to participate. Your lack of participation confirms that we aren't in a bubble.
Among my friends and relatives, only TWO have bought PMs in any kind of a significant way. I agree with you, that seems very un-bubble like. At the coin shop today, I was the only PM buyer at that moment.
Give 'em hell, t!
I don't think they teach what you say in kindergarten, and if they do, then they are just wrong. History shows why.
The public is by no means a necessity for a bubble (and I am not arguing the PM's are one). In the '79-'80 gold and silver run-ups, the public did not participate much, except via selling of family heirlooms. In the oil price run-up two and a half years ago, the public absolutely did not participate, except via buying $4 gas at the pumps.
Even without the public in the game, gold fell from $850 to $250, silver from $48.50 to $3, and oil from $147 to $37. By the way, silver, a metal with even wider industrial uses back then (e.g., film) continued to fall during an economic boom and during the incipient emergence of China.
There are many indicators that suggest tops in markets, but all are not necessary each and every time. Anyone who waited for the public to signify the oil top in '08 got hammered, because the public never showed up.
Incidentally, many of the same folks arguing that public participation is a necessity for a top also argue that the consumer is cash strapped and thus the recent retail sales numbers cannot continue. Unless gold bullion dealers offer "no money down", Alt-A and teaser rate loans to buy PM's, the wider public may never be able to join in.
On the other hand, the bullion dealers from whom most on this site buy probably do not deal with the Soros, Paulsons and Tudors of the world, but rather the still-employed general public. Every day some commenter notes that this dealer or that dealer is "out of coins". Sounds like the public to me.
Yes, you are exactly right. You are a super genius and everyone should sell all of their gold and silver. Thanks be to you, lord of finance, for showing me the light. I promise that I will trust in the truth and honesty of the Bernank from now on. I will immediately take all of my profits and put them into dollar denominated assets immediately.
I will stop all this tom-foolery about holding non-dilatable currency in the face of non-stop printing. I will ignore 0% interest rates. I will ignore gold participation rates that are less that 4% of their historical average. I will trust that the posts at Zerohedge are typical of the entirety of the market's sentiment. I will ignore every time they have been right, and instead pretend they have been wrong. I will pretend that their calls haven't been flawless, and made those who followed them a great deal of risk free money. I will pretend that the writings of long term gold bulls are indicative of a change in market sentiment.
Yes, thank you for showing me the light. You're a GENIUS!
You are not especially observant, though you are particularly defensive. I did not advise anyone to sell. Everybody can do, and will do whatever he pleases. After running through the last thousand gold threads, however, I made an observation that the jargon being tossed around by some, and the knee-jerk aggression that emanates from anyone who thinks his god has been slandered, bordered on the fanatic. I added some thoughts I had on what others have assumed are forgone conclusions, and asked those who already had thought through my concerns to reply. Subsequently, largely from your posts, not only has my initial observation been reinforced, but I have also seen that some of the opinions held ("markets only top when the public joins in") are wrong and not supported by the historical record. Other gold longs, who are not as defensive, understood the point I was trying to make, and in an adult manner entered reasonable counterpoints and explanations.
Can't believe no one posted the Eastwood-Marvin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnbiRDNaDeo
but only people make you cry---like Cdad
Someone recommended I read Peter Schiff today. He any good?
maybe read him and make up your own mind?
Fug u all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5_57PF7HwM&feature=related
Especially you, Cdad!
Ok, byte this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gh2UzWgSw3Q&feature=related
Nobody listens to me either.
Cuz I luv y'all, except Cdad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KTatq6lReA&feature=related
Cuz I luv y'all, except Cdad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KTatq6lReA&feature=related
It is bad to call Cdad stupid whern he ain't around, but as he has no brain, why me worry?
Cdad is a MORON IN BEST OF TIMES.
Doesn't Zlotnikov's name have something to do with gold in Slavic languages (e.g., the Polish zloty)? That traitor!
Yes, it does --- it means, roughly, "Son of the goldsmith".
But I still think he is full of gowno, and a total dupajasz.
;-)
LOL! :-)
Another explanation of declining GLD shares in the midst of a rising price of gold would be 'Authorized Particpants' of GLD, having their shares redeemed by Comex shorts. For as we all know Comex shorts can use for Exchange for Physical in a Comex transaction.
Oh yeah, 'GET PHYSICAL!!', or mining shares...
Good point.
I just bought 5 pounds of silver. I went with the 10oz bars because I already have alot of 1964 coins.
Atta boy....:)
~Misstrial
All that means is "authorized institutional investors" (i.e. your broker) have been redeeming shares for cash. That doesn't mean their customers sold or stopped buying.
Look at a one year chart of GLD shares outstanding:
http://www.stockhouse.com/tools/?page=%2FFinancialTools%2Fsn%5Foverview%2Easp%3Fsymbol%3DGLD%2ESO%26table%3DNYSE
Obviously, they front ran their clients. They bought like crazy befor a big move up, and sold it to you at a tidy profit. Now they're lightening up, and hoping to convince GLD holders to panic. Rinse & Repeat.
On of the great untold stories is that just cause your broker offers you GLD that doesn't necessarily mean he has shares to sell you. Just like JPM, there's nothing to stop him from selling stuff he doesn't have.
The other dynamic in play right now is LEAPS option expiration on Jan. 22. The house is gonna have to pay up big if they can't get prices down, and fast.
I'd say keep your paper dry so you can trade it for real gold, cause they're gonna continue shearing the papergoldbugs...
Gold certainly has some advantageous qualities. Once, I spoke to the daughter of the South Vietnamese general who tried to defend Saigon in April of 1975. Her family was only able to flee Vietnam using her grandmother's gold - the pirates who ferried the "boat people" only accepted gold - paper piastres would not cut the mustard. If you believe financial conditions are safe, sane and stable then you have no use for gold. If you forsee turbulent times ahead, then gold is your cup of tea. Both parties can sleep comfortably but which one will be rudely awakened, well time will tell.
i have a friend, not a general's daughter! - but her family had to leave vietnam too -- she says she knew something was up when her mother started giving her bars of gold to hide. well, one night, her parents told all the kids they had to leave, and the kids took their gold and began an unbelieveble journey out of vietnam to the usa via god knows how many countries and rickety boats. the conditions she endured were unbelieveable, but they would have been killed in vietnam. the gold was vital for payments to various people along the way. all the kids made it. can you imagine?? it's hard to think we americans could ever be in such dire straits but i no longer think it totally impossible.
Watched Bob Doll making stock market predictions on television today. According to Doll, in 2011, one of two things will happen: (1) stocks will go up or (2) stocks will go up even more. Of course, with $3.5 trillion to grow, he would say that.
Sure, dump gold. Because the global financial crisis is over and the US and European PIIGS governments aren't bankrupt.
COLLAPSE WILL COME! ALONG WITH CASHLESS CURRENCY!
After reading Bloomberg, I rushed out and traded my gold for dry ice.
You can really get a HELL OF A LOT of dry ice for just once ounce of gold.
I sit here in my cool, steamy room, luxuriating in the carbon dioxide mist, knowing that I am WAAAAY smarter than the poor dummies who are holding onto gold and silver when it's obvious that they are going down permanently.
Gold. What the hell was I thinking?
Dry ice, Bitchez!
lol
Maybe the drop in gold and silver prices were the Daley dip.
JPM's Wm Daley as Chief of Staff to Bamm would seem to favor bank shorts
At least they're out of the shadow government business where we can see them.
Obama will win 2nd term or GIFT the seat to someone (Hilary). Student Loans will be forgiven... (MY OPINION ONLY)...
Physical Currency! I own Physical Currency... Constitution (Silver Coins)! Speculation is up to you... Gotta delete this account. how do I do that??? (I am not Marc Faber).
Switzerland is an interesting country... History of hard money and peace.
And armed citizenry.
"Switzerland is an interesting country... History of hard money and peace."
I hope you have had the pleasure of seeing "The Third Man", particularly the speech Orson Welles makes at the amusement park....
Don’t be so gloomy. After all it’s not that awful.
Well, what the fellow says…in Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo Da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love. They had five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.
Last night on a mainstream Irish political talkshow 3 historians were asked for their views on the nature and scale of the crisis - there was a general agreement although with some tangential thoughts that this crisis was far worse then the trade war of the 1930s which really was the worst peacetime crisis of the Irish state.
Mention was made of how Spain lost its superpower status while Switzerland took delivery of its specie and how the BoE ran Ireland in the 30s despite the presence of a small state agricultural bank.
These are truely explosive memes to the average middleclass functionary who until recently believed in the system - these knowledge firecrackers will set off a reformationary movement just as powerful as protestant anti-papal republicanism which in many ways created the central bank governance system of todays western world.
To think that the Central banks will escape this tsunami of doubt and wealth destruction without at least being a wounded beast like Rome after the BoE ascendancy is to underestimate the power of the Idea.
The west will change or it will fail - there is no third escape hatch.
I always enjoy reading your posts and your viewpoint, Dork. Thanks.
There was a couple who walked out of SA with their heels full of krugs at the height of apartheid. Their hollowed-out heels. Don't forget to take your shoes off when going through customs now folks. And when the time comes, don't take the chip.
Good observations Chindit.
Nobody's paying attention...
Whilst the conspirational scenarios may be a step too far, in terms of reportage, coverage, editing and outright good writing, BBG is surely near the bottom of the pile. Its just a good system thats all. Its news (and TV channel, good looking girls aside) is appalling.
Annual Silver Production = approx 650 million ounces= 21250 MT. Use in catalysts - 700 MT's at least-
http://www.silverinstitute.org/catalysts.php
CatalystsSilver catalysts produce formaldehyde which is used to manufacture plywood for building construction.
A catalyst is a substance that allows or facilitates a chemical process. For example, heat is the world’s most common catalyst and helps many processes to take place -- such as cooking food or baking pastries. Silver, because of its unique chemical properties, has become an increasingly important catalyst for many industrial processes.
More than 700 tons of silver annually are used in the world's chemical industry for the production of two compounds – ethylene oxide and formaldehyde – both essential to the plastics industry. Approximately 90 percent of the silver employed as an industrial catalyst is used for the production of ethylene oxide from ethylene. Ethylene oxide is the foundation for flexible plastics such as polyester textiles, used to make all types of clothing and a variety of specialty fabrics. It is also used for molded items such as insulating handles for stoves, key tops for computers, electrical control knobs, domestic appliance components, and electrical connector housings. About 25 percent of ethylene oxide production is used to produce antifreeze coolant for automobiles and other vehicles.
Formaldehyde, a chemical produced from methanol, is the building block of solid plastics including adhesives, laminating resins for construction plywood and particle board. Formaldehyde also helps to produce finishes for paper and electronic equipment, textiles, surface coatings that resist heat and scratches, dinnerware and buttons, casings for appliances, handles and knobs, packaging materials, automotive parts, thermal and electrical insulating materials, toys and many other products.