BNY ConvergEx: "For Every $1 Of Proceeds From Taxpayers, The Federal Government Issues More Than $1 In New Debt"

Tyler Durden's picture

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New_Meat's picture

with a minus sign in front. - Ned

nmewn's picture


Debt will always humble those who bet against it in this game of chicken.






Rainman's picture

Excellent. This income news means goobermint is the biggest, most successful subprime borrower of all least for now.

And the best news of all is that we taxpayers will never be able to pay it all off. 

Rusty_Shackleford's picture

Yeah, but at least we're borrowing all this money to improve important long term growth needs, like infrastructure,.... Pakistan's infrastructure that is:

Papasmurf's picture

Each dollar of new debt the federal government creates,  is a dollar theft from savers in the form of stealth taxation.

thesapein's picture

and stealth ownership of those who borrowed after their savings and income were destroyed by inflation.

hungrydweller's picture

"The fly in the ointment, as it where, is that what you learned in economics class is pretty much true: companies do not pay taxes. At least not very much of them."

Only partly correct.  Corporations pay NO taxes.  Only people pay ALL taxes.  Corporate "taxes" are just expenses that get built into the price of goods and services which are purchased, in the end, by people.  Kudos to those corporations which are good at keeping their "tax" burden down.  This means they can keep their prices down and we pay less for what we want and need.

RockyRacoon's picture

Say, what?  Then why tax them at all?  Any corporation in the U. S. should be forgiven of all taxation.   That would really spur the economy?  How's that working for GE which paid NO taxes at all.  Hell, let's just remove the tax burden from the working stiff as well.  Just let the gov't print all it needs.  Why tax at all? Taken to the extreme, some seemingly great ideas are seen for what they really are.

poopdeville's picture

He must have skipped "Elasticities of supply and demand week" in Introductory Economics.

thesapein's picture

How exactly does that work against him? He didn't say anything about it being directly proportional or invariant. 

poopdeville's picture

The "he" to which I was referring was hungrydweller, who appears to be ignorant of the concept of a tax incidence and its relation to price elasticities of supply and demand.  He claimed an invariant relationship:  

"Corporations pay NO taxes.  Only people pay ALL taxes.  Corporate "taxes" are just expenses that get built into the price of goods and services which are purchased, in the end, by people." 

thesapein's picture

Yes, we had the same "he," and I still think he was merely trying to point out that we're talking about people, getting all philosophical on us. I don't think he was trying to say that a 10% tax means prices are 10% higher. I hope not.

poopdeville's picture

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that's what he meant.

"Kudos to those corporations which are good at keeping their "tax" burden down. This means they can keep their prices down and we pay less for what we want and need."

RockyRacoon's picture

I was simply pointing out the logical fallacy.  I don't agree with either extreme of the argument.  Didn't mean to start a firestorm.

A Nanny Moose's picture

ok, so McDonnels get a 3% tax increase. You suppose they just absorb that? Sure, supply/demand adjusts. Perhaps thay tax sends one of their competitors out of business. Yet somehow, the tax still remains, and gets passed along to the end consumer, just as Social Security tax they pay on your behalf, is money otherwise in your paycheck.

thesapein's picture

If you're right, then you are wrong.

Someone says that maybe taxes should be lower so you think this is silly because why tax at all then. Turn that around, someone says maybe taxes should be higher so hypothetical you would then say why not tax 100%. See? Whatever you're trying to say can't be right.

Trundle's picture

Corporations should pay no taxes and should offshore jobs with impunity.  As American workers' employment eclipses in a death spiral, government should hand out food stamps and Kraft parmesan cheese.  Pasta is extra.

thesapein's picture

Is there such a thing as meta-economics? I get what you're saying, I think, but I would also like to point out that the receiving end is also people. A government is just people, too.

I think of taxes as not taking away from or adding anything real. What is real is how taxes redirect capital.

Somebody like Rocky says he thinks a road in front of his house is important enough for the state's hired thugs to force you to pay for the road. You might think we need more mass transit instead, but the other neighbors tell you to shut up and pay you immoral bastard.

RockyRacoon's picture

I think we agree a lot more than you think.  Confiscatory taxes, regardless of what it is spent on, is not my idea of liberty.  As they say, a man should own his own labor.  And what he does with the salary is his own business.  Promoting the general welfare is not legally justifiable for the gov't writing a check to a specific person.

DR's picture

Corporate savings from lower taxes can be siphoned into CEO paychecks and stock dividends. It doesn't necessary flow into lower consumer prices.

thesapein's picture

Right, but taxes are a "siphon" enforced by just another group that could be just as corrupt, however, has the full backing of the police force. Opting out is less of an option. Private companies can't (or shouldn't) be able to force people to pay them. If I think a company is bad, I buy from someone else, letting them take a profit that I feel is fair.

Why do people trust elected officials more than non-elected business owners? I suspect it has to do with the idea that voting gives us more representation and power than does trading with each other. No one votes with their money any more?

LeBalance's picture

In a receivership, Zero of the collected booty goes to the country, it All goes to the creditors.  Every credit card transaction and every check goes to the first payee in line, the creditors, who then *loan* the same amount back to your strawman (adding that tally to your second true book) in the form of a payment to the payee.

The amount Owed on the second book never goes down. Ever. Not for you and certainly not for the country. That is how the game is designed.

Just my $0.02.

Rusty Shorts's picture

This should work out REAL good.

Rogerwilco's picture

Will you guys please tone it down? Mr. Obama is trying to enjoy his taxpayer-funded vacation in scenic Maine.

NOTW777's picture

not to mention the family dog flown in by jet, the king's 16 vehicle motorcade and the local cult followers bringing sacrifices to the god

Gully Foyle's picture


WTF is it with politicians and Maine? Never Pa for a vacation or Idaho.


NOTW777's picture

dont know and dont understand.  one of the few states Ive not been to.

my guess is the relative privacy.

funny, syfy channel has a new show called haven about weirdness in maine.

i have no problem with any president taking a vacation.  i do have a problem with a pres who cant show leadership.  it just seems obama loves to rub it in. with all the americans presently suffering one would think he could use some discretion.


RockyRacoon's picture

Right!  He should either hole up in the White House, or be at a small, un-airconditioned contractor shed on the oiliest Gulf bayou we can find.  He's just too pampered.  I say we remove all the toilets from the White House and install outhouses at least 50 yards from the back door(s).

Red Neck Repugnicant's picture

Let's talk about vacation days for a moment, shall we? 

The all time record for presidential vacation days was - you guessed it - George W Bush. Our favorite little cowboy spent 487 days at Camp David and 490 days at his ranch in Crawford chopping brush.

Over the course of 8 miserable years, that works out to 122 days/year, approximately 4 months of every year, or 33% of his presidency.

While Bush spent 1/3 of his presidency chopping wood and chasing fire flies, the United States racked up some notable moments in history:

1.  The worst terrorist attack EVER.

2.  Retaliation for the terrorist attacks by invading the wrong country.

3.  Marketing of that war to the American people based on bad information, lies, deception and half-truths. 

4.  Announced "Mission Accomplished" three weeks after the war started, yet the war continues 7 years later. 

5.  Doubled the national debt from ~$6 trillion to ~$12 trillion.

6.  The worst recession since the Great Depression.  Arguably, some pockets of the economy leapfrogged the recession and landed squarely in a depression. 

7.  A crash of the stock market, a collapse of household wealth, and a total evisceration of our banking system.  

8.  Grand theft and larceny of the American taxpayer to support failed institutions that are politically connected.

9.  The final, undeniable transformation of the United States into a plutocracy.


Reese Bobby's picture

Bush = Clinton = Bush = Obama... Wake Up!

Red Neck Repugnicant's picture

I am awake.  Unfortunately, many around here are not. 

MarketTruth's picture

Clinton... Bush... Obama.... nice puppet front-men. Perhaps you may want to look higher at who truly pulls the strings.


thesapein's picture

Clinton, as much as I hated him, was too smart and well informed under Quigley to be a puppet.

Bush was as stupid as a puppet, but had a powerful heritage at least going back to his grandfather.

Obama... What do we know? Where did he even come from? He's either the pop rockstar who thinks he is the shit but is about to crash (maybe in a plane) but doesn't know why, or he's in on it and is a smooth actor. I dunno.

Speaking of that movie, did you see that Alex Jones's youtube site got "hacked" and that movie was one of many deleted? Apparently, it was getting way too popular. Or maybe Alex did it to himself? Can't think of exactly why though he would do that.

Monkey Craig's picture

totally agree about Obama. it is scary that the leader of our country could come out of nowhere.


on another thread, somebody wrote 'if even 20% of what Alex Jones says is true, we are screwed.'

Red Neck Repugnicant's picture


Every time I hear a bell I'm conditioned to remember that the outward appearance of the Republican party is not indicative of its inner substance.  They're nothing but a bunch of charlatans, preaching ideologies that no longer apply to their party. 


Ragnar D's picture

Yes, so in response you endlessly spam this website (and I assume anyone who'll put up with you in real life) cheerleading for the Party of Government.

IE, every fault of every RINO put on steroids and mixed with control freak, central planner ideology.


That'll really stick it to those mean ol' Republicans!  Let's give the politicians control over even more of our lives, buy votes from Entitled dependents with handouts stolen from those working for a living, and turn the whole country into Detroit.


We've replaced "compassionate (non)conservativism" with disingenuously compassionate authoritarianism.

Reese Bobby's picture

I am usually a man of conviction.  But I am not sure who is a bigger retard ("The Hangover" pronunciation): Pavlov or you?

Heavy's picture

Corporate taxes, what corporate taxes?  Nothing to see here people, move along!

mbasham's picture

Six month data? A nice summary of what was.... four months ago. If you cite the daily data, why not use it?

The personal income tax analysis done here is superficial... a high school effort. Personal income taxes are also paid on dividends, interest and capital gains, so the flaws in the conclusions presented make them almost worthless. I find the Rockefeller Institute to be a very reliable source of info on state income tax collections, and they provide GOOD analysis of the relationship of said taxes to employment for free.

Frankly, I trust the RI data more than I trust the BLS propaganda.

Reese Bobby's picture

Good points Sparky.  Obviously our Government's finances are in fine order.  Thanks for your value added insight...

mbasham's picture

Rogerwilco. Don't be a DB! Sounds like you were a big fan of Bush, who spent more than half his presidency on vacation, and the rest looking for his brain.

RockyRacoon's picture

...and a fruitless search at that.

GlassHammer's picture

"the scarcest resource of all might just be common sense"

No the scarcest resource of all is integrity which is strictly opposed to the one flaw all our leaders share, self deception. 


G-R-U-N-T's picture

Interesting that many in the current administration have graduated from ivy league universities, the most prestigious schools in our land, and yet they are as dumb as a fence post when it comes to common sense.

The lack of common sense is part of the residue of having no integrity. There is no intelligence, no leadership without it, that's why the insanity continues.

Insanity is the inability to recognize the truth, and there is little or no truth in government these days. This is part of the gut feeling that most of us Americans are feeling, that something is deeply wrong, and part of that feeling is knowing we are being lied too.

Gully Foyle's picture

Best read this ( I quoted part enjoy)

America's Ruling Class -- And the Perils of Revolution

Although after the election of 2008 most Republican office holders argued against the Troubled Asset Relief Program, against the subsequent bailouts of the auto industry, against the several "stimulus" bills and further summary expansions of government power to benefit clients of government at the expense of ordinary citizens, the American people had every reason to believe that many Republican politicians were doing so simply by the logic of partisan opposition. After all, Republicans had been happy enough to approve of similar things under Republican administrations. Differences between Bushes, Clintons, and Obamas are of degree, not kind. Moreover, 2009-10 establishment Republicans sought only to modify the government's agenda while showing eagerness to join the Democrats in new grand schemes, if only they were allowed to. Sen. Orrin Hatch continued dreaming of being Ted Kennedy, while Lindsey Graham set aside what is true or false about "global warming" for the sake of getting on the right side of history. No prominent Republican challenged the ruling class's continued claim of superior insight, nor its denigration of the American people as irritable children who must learn their place. The Republican Party did not disparage the ruling class, because most of its officials are or would like to be part of it.

Never has there been so little diversity within America's upper crust. Always, in America as elsewhere, some people have been wealthier and more powerful than others. But until our own time America's upper crust was a mixture of people who had gained prominence in a variety of ways, who drew their money and status from different sources and were not predictably of one mind on any given matter. The Boston Brahmins, the New York financiers, the land barons of California, Texas, and Florida, the industrialists of Pittsburgh, the Southern aristocracy, and the hardscrabble politicians who made it big in Chicago or Memphis had little contact with one another. Few had much contact with government, and "bureaucrat" was a dirty word for all. So was "social engineering." Nor had the schools and universities that formed yesterday's upper crust imposed a single orthodoxy about the origins of man, about American history, and about how America should be governed. All that has changed.

Today's ruling class, from Boston to San Diego, was formed by an educational system that exposed them to the same ideas and gave them remarkably uniform guidance, as well as tastes and habits. These amount to a social canon of judgments about good and evil, complete with secular sacred history, sins (against minorities and the environment), and saints. Using the right words and avoiding the wrong ones when referring to such matters -- speaking the "in" language -- serves as a badge of identity. Regardless of what business or profession they are in, their road up included government channels and government money because, as government has grown, its boundary with the rest of American life has become indistinct. Many began their careers in government and leveraged their way into the private sector. Some, e.g., Secretary of the Treasury Timothy Geithner, never held a non-government job. Hence whether formally in government, out of it, or halfway, America's ruling class speaks the language and has the tastes, habits, and tools of bureaucrats. It rules uneasily over the majority of Americans not oriented to government.

The two classes have less in common culturally, dislike each other more, and embody ways of life more different from one another than did the 19th century's Northerners and Southerners -- nearly all of whom, as Lincoln reminded them, "prayed to the same God." By contrast, while most Americans pray to the God "who created and doth sustain us," our ruling class prays to itself as "saviors of the planet" and improvers of humanity. Our classes' clash is over "whose country" America is, over what way of life will prevail, over who is to defer to whom about what. The gravity of such divisions points us, as it did Lincoln, to Mark's Gospel: "if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand."

Reese Bobby's picture

It all went to shit once politicians started buying votes with printed money and unfunded liabilities.  So: we have Congesspeople who I am prety sure can't read; the melting pot stopped melting; taxpayers are slipping itno the minority; iPads are selling well...