This page has been archived and commenting is disabled. Runs Out Of Silver In Germany

Tyler Durden's picture


Correction: BullionVault does not vault in Germany. Silver is in London; gold is in London, New York and Zurich.

With the US Mint selling silver at an unprecedented pace, it was only a matter of time before the silver shortage would be spotted across the Atlantic, where distributors ran out of both gold and silver on a daily basis during the first time Europe became insolvent some time in early May 2010. Sure enough, has announced that it has run out of silver in Germany "due to high demand." In the meantime, the CFTC's actions have succeeded in allowing the JPM's suppression of precious metals markets to continue indefinitely, yet all its actions have really done is to provide a short-lived lower cost basis for the precious metals as there is no indication demand is subsiding. At some point the margin calls will come. Then not even Gary Gensler will be able to bail out JPM (we wish we could say the same about Ben Bernanke to whom JPM's role as head of the tri-party repo clearing market is irreplaceable in maintaining an orderly shadow liquidity market).


Due to high demand our own silver stocks are exhausted right now.

As BullionVault is only dealing with physical bars which are already in our possession, we are currently unable to offer, silver on our own market. Of course, our market is still open to all our clients act with each other and set their own prices. This situation could lead to buyers and sellers at higher prices. Buyers are asked to check the price again before they confirm their order.

On Tuesday, 18 January 2011, we expect the next delivery for silver.

h/t Oldeurope


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Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:43 | 877274 bugs_
bugs_'s picture

Don't vorry - ve have vays of getink more silver!

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:03 | 877365 Strider52
Strider52's picture

In other news today: I did NOT run out of silver.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:13 | 877401 Gene Parmesan
Gene Parmesan's picture

I actually ran into some!

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 18:25 | 877631 tmosley
tmosley's picture

That must have hurt. 

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 11:37 | 877859 TheJudge2012
TheJudge2012's picture

A price smack down and stops run into.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 18:45 | 877693 walküre
walküre's picture

What is spot price? It means sweet fuck all.

JPM's short term manipulative gain will cost America its currency.

Get it?

People lost faith in paper. Repeat. People have lost faith in paper - again.

Now people pay for silver or gold whatever the market is willing to sell it at.

It will not be reflected on the government controlled "trade" boards.

The biggest bubble of all is the paper money that nobody wants to hold.

Fewer and fewer people trust paper money.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 20:13 | 877918 oddjob
oddjob's picture

Monster Box Friday.

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 03:15 | 878416 strannick
strannick's picture

'Monster box Friday'

That should be a slogan, a rallying cry...

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 07:55 | 878510 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

For now, there is still a hughe lot of money stuck into debt.

Imagine the economy would start to improve and people would pay down debt and freeing that capital so it gets back to the street.


And keep in mind that there WILL be plenty more QE's comming making that timebomb even bigger.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 21:25 | 878062 TeMpTeK
TeMpTeK's picture

"Don't vorry - ve have vays of getink more silver!"



Fri, 01/14/2011 - 23:31 | 878249 Freddie
Freddie's picture

I own some SLW and it went down again today.  PLEASE make it stop.  Is The JP Morgue behind this?

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:44 | 877276 Cleanclog
Cleanclog's picture

Good.  While JPM keeps prices down, go buy more physical.  It will appreciate in price soon enough.  

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:46 | 877283 Quixotic_Not
Quixotic_Not's picture


Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:55 | 877335 gorillaonyourback
gorillaonyourback's picture

as gonzo said, its the best retirement invest u may ever get?

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:10 | 877387 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Just did,another wad out of dealers stocks.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:46 | 877285 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Respect! I always suspected BullionVault of borderline activity (I don't like that you can't pick up your physical under any condition), but I guess they're clean.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:52 | 877319 Renfield
Renfield's picture

That lack of 'permission' to claim your own possessions is the reason my husband and I use BV and GM (GoldMoney) for chart-trading only (like any other trading account), NOT for any kind of real holdings.

If they won't 'let you' get your own stuff out, then who really owns it?

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:08 | 877383 Danielius
Danielius's picture

That is simply not true.  You can.  It has been done many times.  They publish this information, openly.  I dont know where you heard it, but it aint so.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:33 | 877461 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Dont know about Gold Money, but here's the ass kicking you take at BV.

BullionVault provides an efficient service for dealing and owning gold and silver bullion, free from counterparty and credit-default risk.  It is not intended as a low-cost or convenient service for taking physical possession of either gold or silver bullion.

If you choose to withdraw your gold from BullionVault, your wish will be accommodated only in the form of whole numbers of appropriate bars of varying sizes and of generally accepted gold bullion coins to be selected at BullionVault's discretion.

The withdrawal fee for good delivery gold bars (400 troy oz) will be not more than 2.5% of value.  The withdrawal fee for other gold will be not more than 7.5% of value.

Your wish to withdraw silver bullion will be accommodated only in the form of whole good delivery silver bars (1,000 troy oz) and at a fee of not more than 10%.  The withdrawal fee for one tonne or more of silver bullion, delivered in whole good delivery bars, will be not more 2.5%.

Please note that on withdrawing bullion from the vault you may become liable to taxes which you would otherwise not need to pay, such as VAT sales tax on silver bullion, currently charged at 20% in the United Kingdom.

IOW, make sure your metals are in Zurich.

As you can see, the withdrawal costs are damned high, IMHO.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:52 | 877528 bunkermeatheadp...
bunkermeatheadprogeny's picture


Fri, 01/14/2011 - 18:53 | 877723 Sabremesh
Sabremesh's picture

As you can see, the withdrawal costs are damned high, IMHO.

Of course you're right, but if you want to buy physical gold to store under you mattress, then you'd be a bit daft to get it from BullionVault! That isn't what they're there for. They offer a service/product that you can't get as an individual physical buyer. Namely that you can buy (part of a) Good Delivery bar(s), and they will store it with a level of security you cannot match by storing it yourself. It is quite reasonable they charge a premium for what is not part of their "core business".

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 19:18 | 877778 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Just the facts Sabre, just the facts.Someone said NO delivery, I showed them there were.

Providing axe to grind.

Plus if you can afford a/some 400oz bar/s,and pay the prems,go for it.

What fool would put anything of value under their mattress, much less 500k in gold.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:12 | 877396 Strider52
Strider52's picture

I'm guessing that they ran out of $28.50 silver, cuz they bought at $29.95, and won't have any silver until the price hits $30+ again, which should happen amazingly soon.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 18:28 | 877636 tmosley
tmosley's picture

OR the paper price goes to zero as money flees the corrupt west.  Physical will go for 3 or more digits of fiat paper.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 18:45 | 877698 Strider52
Strider52's picture

Harvey Organ says it all:

There is turmoil in the silver pits.



Fri, 01/14/2011 - 20:00 | 877894 UnRealized Reality
UnRealized Reality's picture

You are delusional. There is NOBODY on this Earth that would Buy/Sell any PM"S at a price other than the paper price!!!!!!!!!!!! You name one person who would be that stupid. I own a lot of both but this old and now new again Bullshit that Physical is going to be worth more then the paper price is ridiculous.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 20:16 | 877925 oddjob
oddjob's picture

Backwardation Bitchez!

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 23:20 | 878233 h3m1ngw4y
h3m1ngw4y's picture



happens all the time which  planet did he live on the last few years.  id rather say physical "never" traded the same price as paper gold theres always a cost or benefit added

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 20:23 | 877930 Chappaquiddick
Chappaquiddick's picture

You should familiarise yourself with the terms Contango and Backwardation.

Look at the spot price of gold and look at how much a 1oz gold coin would cost you to purchase - the coin is not at spot and try as you might you won't find it for sale anywhere at spot.  That difference is part commission and part Backwardation.

Historically currencies die regularly and as they do people move out of them and at some point refuse to use them altogether.  That is starting to happen in the US tax system.  They are preparing for an alternate system of tax collection - PMs.  If that trend continuess then they will collect taxes in PMs and one of the few things that instils value into the dollar is the fact that taxes are collected in it.  If they keep chipping away at it, it will eventually fall - and maybe that's their ultimate plan, in any event. 

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 20:51 | 877988 oddjob
oddjob's picture

I'll stand by that bitch.people are paying more for physical now than paper prices months and years out.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 20:55 | 877996 UnRealized Reality
UnRealized Reality's picture

Yea, WHO? Other then the Club. Premiums do not count. You probably be the first one the sell if the price fall to 800. Your dreaming.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 21:07 | 878015 oddjob
oddjob's picture

When Silver falls to 800, I might lighten up as you say.

And premiums do fucking count,you have to get it in your hand to own it.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 21:04 | 878016 oddjob
oddjob's picture


Fri, 01/14/2011 - 23:11 | 878216 Cthonic
Cthonic's picture

Don't like selling physical, but needed to rebalance my holdings. Sold a load of 2009 silver eagles to apmex for around $1.50 over spot today. Silver is well bid, as is gold. My 2009 palladium maples, the main reason for the sale and which I've dumped in their entirety, fetched just under spot.

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 03:21 | 878419 strannick
strannick's picture

'Physical costs the same as paper, but premiums dont count'

Premiums dont count? Premium IS the difference between paper and physical. Remember the premiums in 2008? We're heading there again. Premiums dont count? You cant count.

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 07:59 | 878511 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

Premiums don't count if you have the time to sell it.

If you're forced to sell it as quickly as possible, the melters will only pay spot.

But that's the case with everything. If a buyer sees that a seller is in a hurry to sell. Would you give him his first price? Or would you bring it down as he needs the money as quickly as possible?


Sat, 01/15/2011 - 08:26 | 878519 UnRealized Reality
UnRealized Reality's picture

 That's right premiums do not count because they are an investment expense. And you proved my point with the 2008 thing. They fluctuate and therefore are an investment expense. Most people should really learn some accounting.

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 09:33 | 878538 Cthonic
Cthonic's picture

Premiums (as well as commissions) paid are part of the cost basis of an investment.

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 05:36 | 878472 foofoojin
foofoojin's picture

As long as they base the amount of "moneys" I have in PM terms then of course they can tax me in PM.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 20:45 | 877974 quartshort
quartshort's picture

Please remind me, why then, did the coins shops charge between $4-$6 over spot when PM's dropped like a rock in 2008-09 (to $8 + change)? As soon as silver hit $14 the over spot returned to a much more normal $1.65... ALL the coin dealers here said the paper price was manipulated and they would not sell it. Hell, they were offering to BUY it at over $2 spot for a month!


UnRealized, you gots some 'splainin to do!

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 21:01 | 878012 UnRealized Reality
UnRealized Reality's picture

It is called profit!!!!!!!! We all pay over COST for everything we buy. I guess the law of business do not apply in the PM market.

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 03:22 | 878421 strannick
strannick's picture

Junked. For incoherent reasoning, and bad grammar.

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 15:18 | 878878 tmosley
tmosley's picture

They profit from the spread, not from price fluctuations.  PM dealers are all hedged, or else they don't last very long.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 22:26 | 878152 Kina
Kina's picture

Right, and this is why JPM pay a premium to make those wanting delivery go away.


The price of gold/silver is spot plus whatever premium JPM are willing to pay to not make delivery.

Tell me what would be the price of gold and silver if most demanded delivery? It would skyrocket.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 23:34 | 878257 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

The paper price does not include the cost of putting the silver into bars or coins. Kitco clearly makes this point. If you happen to purchase some at spot, nice going, but buying from any mint or dealer involves paying a premium. As the premium grows (and it does) it is a reflection of the difficulty in finding physical.

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 10:45 | 878571 Max Hunter
Max Hunter's picture

There is NOBODY on this Earth that would Buy/Sell any PM"S at a price other than the paper price!!

This statement boggles my mind.. When PM's begin their accent (rapid) there will be (3) factors.

1. Paper Price

2. Premium

3. TIME!..

I think premiums will go up, you may have to wait 16 weeks to get a roll of eagles at $5 over spot but you could go to the local coin guy and get them for 15$ over spot same day.. This will be the case when silver approaches and surpasses $50/oz..

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 11:51 | 878632 UnRealized Reality
UnRealized Reality's picture

That's because people only see what they want to see. Silver is 28.48 right now. Would you pay 30.48 plus the current premium? No, I didn't think so.

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 15:54 | 878911 greenbear
greenbear's picture

"There is NOBODY on this Earth that would Buy/Sell any PM"S at a price other than the paper price!!!!!!!!!!!! You name one person who would be that stupid."

Checked ebay lately?  It's a market place where prices for physical (as oppossed to paper) PM's are determined by buyers and sellers.  Let me know if you find someone there selling for spot price!!


"...this old and now new again Bullshit that Physical is going to be worth more then the paper price is ridiculous."

No, it's not ridiculous.  The paper price is based on paper gold and silver, which are more than 100 times greater than their underlying assets.   It's a confidence game that is unravelling.  The paper price will mean nothing when the LBMA defaults.  The price for physical will rise when more people figure out that the supply is 1/100 of what they were led to believe.  Hopefully, your inability to see the difference is not because you hold paper promises instead of physical gold and silver.


Sat, 01/15/2011 - 00:13 | 878286 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

bingo.  I can only assume the same when I bought from northwest territorial mint a few years ago ... 'buying on the dips' has its drawbacks, like 2.5 month waits for delivery.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:26 | 877449 sumo
sumo's picture

Incorrect. You can pick up the physical. This is stated in the terms and conditions on the site.

A correction to the story: Silver is stored in London only, in a Via Mat vault. Gold is held in London, Zurich, New York. The silver shortage is in London, not Germany.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 18:01 | 877558 Going Loco
Going Loco's picture

Can't have too many people pointing out that EscapeKey doesn't know what he is talking about. I have had a chunky investment through BullionVault for 2 years and believe me I investigated the operation thoroughly before depositing my capital with them. Also, just to check, I sold some and withdrew the cash which arrived instantly. Long-time investors have seen the withdrawal reports when people have taken delivery of physical - it can be done. 

The really big problem with BV is taxation. Let's assume that TSHTF and PMs are priced at $10,000 or even $1,000,000 ounce. The BV holder has nowhere to hide and can't sell without having her capital wiped out by capital gains taxes (unless they live in Belgium of course). In such circumstances the chap with his PMs in the form of small denomination coins bought incognito and secretly hidden is going to be the winner in this very dangerous game. I like BV and trust them but if you fear a financial  apocalypse my advice would be to buy small coins, hide them, and keep your trap shut. I certainly wouldn't brag about it on Zero Hedge.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 20:12 | 877916 Chappaquiddick
Chappaquiddick's picture

I wrote to them expressly about the circumstances associated with withdrawal of bullion under a hyper inflationary currency collapse.

I live in the UK and am subject to the 20% VAT on withdrawal of silver (I'm a gentleman).

I asked what would happen in the vault if traders did not want to sell in exchange for a currency - an effective seize-up in the vault.  Lets say that currency was now worthless and you're looking at £1Bln VAT bill to get your silver out but you don't have that much fiat because the median wage yesterday was £1,000,000pa.

Could you withdraw your silver and pay the VAT in silver?

I didn't get a straight answer.

That's a crease that needs ironing out IMO.

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 11:10 | 878589 trav7777
trav7777's picture

quick question:  do coke distributors pay CG?

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:47 | 877288 slow_roast
slow_roast's picture

You can't even B the FD?  That's a BFD!

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:48 | 877295 Gloomy
Gloomy's picture

From the US Mint:

"These 2010 U.S. Mint Silver Eagles are red hot and available right now—a fact that we can't guarantee will be true for the rest of the year."

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:24 | 877444 Gene Parmesan
Gene Parmesan's picture is not the US mint.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:40 | 877488 Gloomy
Gloomy's picture

Sorry, you are correct. Here is what they say at the US Mint:


Production of United States Mint American Eagle Silver Uncirculated Coins continues to be temporarily suspended because of unprecedented demand for American Eagle Silver Bullion Coins. Until recently, all available silver bullion blanks were being allocated to the American Eagle Silver Bullion Coin Program, as the United States Mint is required by Public Law 99-61 to produce these coins “in quantities sufficient to meet public demand . . . .”

Although the demand for precious metal coins remains high, the increase in supply of planchets—coupled with a lower demand for bullion orders in August and September—allowed the United States Mint to meet public demand and shift some capacity to produce numismatic versions of the American Eagle One Ounce Silver Proof Coin.

However, because of the continued demand for American Eagle Silver Bullion Coins, 2010-dated American Eagle Silver Uncirculated Coins will not be produced.

The United States Mint will resume production of American Eagle Silver Uncirculated Coins once sufficient inventories of silver bullion blanks can be acquired to meet market demand for all three American Eagle Silver Coin products."

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 23:09 | 878213 robobbob
robobbob's picture

sorry, quantity and qualityare now optional

HR 6162

amended by striking ‘quantities’ and inserting ‘qualities and quantities that the Secretary determines are’

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:54 | 877297 e_u_r_o
e_u_r_o's picture

can someone explain to me, if there is so little silver available, how the f. can price be falling?


I read all you talking about manipulation and how silver will be 150 or whatever in the future, why dont they just stop manipulation and earn money from rising silver prices instead?

its like yesterdays story about US mint silver or smthg posting record silver coin sales. How on earth can you trust info from a site that ends with .gov

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:06 | 877332 Renfield
Renfield's picture

"why dont they just stop manipulation and earn money from rising silver prices instead?"

Because that requires selling your capital.

Banks are treating PMs as a commodity, with ETFs. I think of it as trying to trade it like a fiat currency.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:46 | 877507 geminiRX
geminiRX's picture

The Fed cannot allow silver to come close to 50 per ounce because that would undermine faith and trust in the US dollar itself. Its not about making money - it's about confidence in paper.

.....code blue.....US dollar......code blue...

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:56 | 877337 gorillaonyourback
gorillaonyourback's picture

its a naked short

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:14 | 877408 Hephasteus
Hephasteus's picture

Sincerity through bigger more naked shorts. You will believe. This isn't bluff. It's really serious bluff. It will bend your mind and make you question it.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:59 | 877338 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Smart ZH-er Sudden Debt has been telling us that there are big "physical arbitrage" profits to be made in buying 1 oz silver coins here and selling them in Euroland for at least 25% more.

Bet that will still continue to be so for at least a little while.  Bottom line?  If you are going to Europe for any other reason, bring along 100 oz of silver and have a nice trip for $700 or so cheaper...

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:09 | 877385 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Just checked's handy ebay PM price & bid table there at the bottom of their home page.

1 oz Au Eagles are some 15% over spot

1 oz Ag Eagles are some 26% over spot

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:15 | 877412 DosZap
DosZap's picture


I refuse to buy from eGay.

There are many dealers that sell at better, far better prems.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:54 | 877531 downrodeo
downrodeo's picture

Agreed, check your city for coin dealers. They usually have what you're looking for and ninety nine times out of a hundred it will be cheaper than ebay.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 18:12 | 877597 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture



That place is loaded with counterfeiters!! I bought some morgans and peace dollars on that site: ALL FAKE.

I even have 5 SEA's that are fake. 23 grams.





Fri, 01/14/2011 - 18:29 | 877641 trav7777
trav7777's picture

paypal plus CC can get you some help.

But yeah, counterfeiters are everywhere, especially from Asia.  You have to be very discriminating in terms of what you'll bid on and from whom

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 19:30 | 877812 DosZap
DosZap's picture

PayPal is owned by eGay, and their a slimy bunch of Bstds also.

Ever try and get your money OUT of them?,no disputes.

And MC/VISA can not help you.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 20:23 | 877932 Renfield
Renfield's picture

Nothing like a really reputable dealer.

We went to the same dealership in Sydney for years. They'd been in business since 1974. One day someone came in to sell some silver bars that he'd inherited from his dead grandmother. Had '1938' stamped on the top.

And completely fake. The dealer was showing me one of those bars and shaking his head over it - guy thought he had an inheritance and they turned out worthless. The bar looked pretty good to me.

I guess the guy was so upset and disappointed that he just walked out and left the bars there with the dealer.

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 03:39 | 878430 Ronium
Ronium's picture

I have twice now received counterfeit items from Ebay.  And twice Ebay and Paypal promptly refunded my money, no hassles.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 22:27 | 878159 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

DosZap, I was just passing along the info about eBay as a way to get limited price information.

The closest coin shop to where I am at charged me $80 over spot (so about 5.5%).  If I want to drive 1.5 hours to the larger bullion dealer, he'll cut that to $65 or so over spot, but I have to drive a lot more so I buy from him only when I want to buy, say, 5 or more oz of gold or platinum.

Thanks DZ and all above for alerting us to eBay having sellers of FAKE PMs.

I now agree that working with your local coin guy (assuming he is legit) is worth it for me.  Only once did I buy from the dealers, in my case it was 10 oz of platinum from MONEX.

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 00:04 | 878278 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

One does not buy at random on eBay.  There are reputable sellers who have actual store fronts, either as coin shops or jewelers, who have sold for years on eBay.  Getting burned is just as much the buyer's fault as the seller's!  Read that last line again.  Getting help with a fraudulent seller is an easy and fixed process through Paypal.   Don't pay any other way.  Those who buy without knowing how will eventually get fried.   Most stories of being screwed by eBay purchases are second-hand anecdotal stories anyhow.  The same precautions must be taken when buying from any store front dealer or a dealer at a coin show.   All purchasing venues cannot be ruled out due to one bad sale.   There are no absolutes in any market.

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 02:21 | 878389 mt paul
mt paul's picture


know your sellers 

been buying kilos 

no problem..

some nice old bars..

quick delivery

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:57 | 877545 bunkermeatheadp...
bunkermeatheadprogeny's picture

You need to build up your dealer contacts, coin club, etc.

Buying selling locally +/- 5% with each other.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 23:29 | 878244 h3m1ngw4y
h3m1ngw4y's picture

in europe gold traded in athens was at a 10% premium at the height of the crisis physical only.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:56 | 877339 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Escalation of commitment has left them with no other option.  If they try to reverse their position now, it will make a lot of people look really stupid, and endanger a lot of bonuses (which we can't have, as America's entire economy is predicated on bankers getting gigantic bonuses every year).

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:06 | 877376 malikai
malikai's picture

If that is in fact true, then they are merely delaying the inevitable. Delaying the inevitable at a future cost far greater than it would be to rectify now. If the squeeze comes after bonus season, you are the winner of this argument.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:04 | 877368 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

Real answer:

If the people place there faith in something other than the government printed fiat paper - GAME OVER!!!!!

PM's must be surpressed as a matter of "National Security"

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:04 | 877370 Hearst
Hearst's picture

Didn't Keiser simplify it by saying something along the lines of that today

If you control the price of Silver you can control the price of Gold.  If you can control the price of Gold you can control the value of the US Dollar.  If you can control the US Dollar you can control all currencies. 

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 19:06 | 877749 Sabremesh
Sabremesh's picture


Gold and silver behave like Veblen goods.

You will find that gold and silver availability dries up when the price is pushed down. This is most likely because everybody knows that the drop is temporary, and whilst lots of people want to buy at the cheaper price, nobody who owns gold wants to sell it at that price. Your local coin dealer will also be "low on stock" when you get these mini-crashes, but he's very keen to buy!

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 16:36 | 878979 greenbear
greenbear's picture

Artificial price controls cause shortages because producers have less or no incentive to produce at lower prices .  Prices of PM's are rising because confidence in the USD is falling.  Investors are not buying gold and silver for status purposes but as a hedge against inflation and default.  

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 03:25 | 878424 strannick
strannick's picture

I asked Gary Gensler to stop the manipulation. He said no.

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 11:32 | 878609 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

Fucking corrupt fucking midget.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:48 | 877298 e_u_r_o
e_u_r_o's picture

dbl post

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:49 | 877301 kaiten
kaiten's picture

After Big recession, comes the Big inflation.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:49 | 877302 Sofa King
Sofa King's picture

How does keepinprices low mak them more money?  I'm buying lots of Silver but I need to know how to explain it to the other Lemmings so my horde can increase in value.  I want to be closer to the top of the Pyramid as opposed to Ground Floor.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:03 | 877364 Renfield
Renfield's picture

It sounds like you're thinking of this as a trade: silver for fiat. When it goes up (in fiat), you'll sell it, when it goes down (in fiat), you'll buy it.

Keeping prices low makes them (fiat) money in many ways - from speculation, churn, same as trading any other currency and as trading ETFs.

This is going to make it difficult for any joe blow who's trying to joing that game.

Some of us who buy silver (gold) aren't buying it for the short-term trade.

Some of us are buying it as a lack of faith in fiat altogether, and hiding out in stored PMs until this currency crisis runs its course. When a new currency emerges that I believe in, that's when I sell my PMs. (Presumably, the new currency will bear some relation to real PMs.)

Until then, I'll keep buying 'the dips', and if I trade, it's with paper only.

If you're buying physical silver, I'd strongly suggest not doing it as a trade. Stick with the paper if you're going to trade it. (BullionVault counts as 'paper' to me since you can't take physical delivery, but they do apparently store physical in relation to their paper orders. Like they're ALL supposed to.)

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:37 | 877475 DosZap
DosZap's picture

BullionVault counts as 'paper' to me since you can't take physical delivery, but they do apparently store physical in relation to their paper orders. Like they're ALL supposed to.)


Yes they do, see the above post...just cost you thru the wazoo.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 19:29 | 877810 Renfield
Renfield's picture


You're right, sorry.

It's just been too long since my husband and I read through all the flaming hoops & conditions we would have had to go thru to get our stuff out, and said, Basically, not practical, can't do it. So we never counted that as our physical holdings.

My memory got a bit fuzzy there and started oversimplifying. I honestly can't even remember all the different conditions for BV and GM (the other vault we traded with, while we were trading commodities for awhile. We aren't now, but may start again, we'll see).

But you're right - 'can't' is a very strong word!

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 18:55 | 877725 Burticus
Burticus's picture

Sofa - The bankster cartel can loot more of the sheeples' wealth using their monopoly on the creation of fiat electron-paper "money" than they could ever make trading metals.  Silver and gold are the barking watchdawg and burglar alarm, warning the sheeple the the wolf is approaching to rob them through currency debasement.  The loss of confidence caused by soaring metal prices turns into hyper-inflation, as currency loses its value so fast it must be dumped immediately for anything tangible.  So, the cartel must continually beat the barking watchdawg and turn off the burglar alarm by getting the bullion banks to naked short the $#!+ out of paper metals contracts on the CRIMEX and LBMA.

Buy physical metal delivered to your possession on the dips.  Trade paper, if you must trade, understanding that you are playing in the lion's den.

P.S. It is unlikely your lemmings can be helped; they will only make fun of your tin-foil hat until they wake up suspended in mid-air off the cliff like Wiley Coyote.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:49 | 877303 BeeTee
BeeTee's picture

I've read alot of "we've sold out of silver" stories on web-sites recently, but I can't fathom it.  I'm a European and I telephoned my dealer today, who confirmed that they have plenty of silver 1kg bars available. 

I think that a certain amount of hyperbole is in play...

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:54 | 877328 Gloomy
Gloomy's picture

Tell him you are contemplating an order for $100,000. Ask him how soon you can take delivery if you place the order with him. Tell him you will hold him to whatever he says, so please give an honest answer.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:03 | 877366 BeeTee
BeeTee's picture

A fair comment.

I will telephone them and post their response here. 

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 03:28 | 878425 strannick
strannick's picture

Please also give his company name and link, cause all the dealers I contact are tight, miners too.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:39 | 877487 DosZap
DosZap's picture

I think most of the I AM out of, is the Dealers selling coins, and smaller bars.

1oz coins /bars, and 5-10 oz bars.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:42 | 877497 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

I think its fair to say that when supply problems really set in, the real price will disconnect from the spot price. If dealers are still quoting in spot + typical premium, that implies the dealer in question is not concerned about supply.


Fri, 01/14/2011 - 18:19 | 877618 ciscokid
ciscokid's picture

First Majestic who 2 days ago were selling a max of 300 per order
Have no reduced it to 50oz max per order.
Delivery time two weeks.

And they are producers.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 18:41 | 877682 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

BullionByPost have been out of bars since early December. They keep pushing "expected delivery" times, now to the end of February. Most of their coins can still be had, though the premiums suck.

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 13:01 | 878721 ciscokid
ciscokid's picture

Could you kindly supply the name of the dealer please.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:49 | 877308 Renfield
Renfield's picture

This kinda gives me more respect for BullionVault, not less.

Meanwhile - shrug - the COMEX LBMA etc. are just continuing to trade fiat among themselves. Me, I'll be buying from whatever dealers are dumb enough to let that lower their physical price, and I'm keeping my physical STASHED until this currency crisis is over.

Might take a few years, but don't think it will be long...just keep trading fiat for real stuff until then.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:50 | 877309 Bubbles...bubbl...
Bubbles...bubbles everywhere's picture

Impossible! Everyone knows silver price is falling. Welcome to the new normal; prices fall when there are shortages.

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 00:29 | 878296 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

You must be a credentialed financial advisor.  That sort of crap could come from no other source.  Or is that what your advisor told you?

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 02:19 | 878387 Renfield
Renfield's picture

heh...I bet the comment you're responding to was missing this:



Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:51 | 877316 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Try to keep it down for at least a couple more months, guys.  I want more physical.  Throw your own bodies into the breech if you have to.  Make me rich, you corrupt shits!

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:52 | 877320 Ecoman11
Ecoman11's picture

Exactly what the The Bears said. The spot price is irrelevant to physical demand. Stop trading worthless paper and go buy your silver.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:42 | 877468 Red Neck Repugnicant
Red Neck Repugnicant's picture

Exactly what the The Bears said...

No.  Those bears were nothing but a incredible marketing tool.  It's exactly what a gold/silver dealer named Albert Dalal said.  

Shrewdly, he was able to sell all his inventory at the top of the market and now doesn't even need to have a functioning website anymore ("temporarily closed to better serve you" lol), since he's in the Maldives sipping coconut drinks with your money while you hold your silver coins that lost 10% in 30 days (and that's if you don't consider wholesale/retail arbitrage). 

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:42 | 877498 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Likely he was ready to ROLL IT UP, how long was he a Dealer?.

Many years I bet.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 22:38 | 877543 Red Neck Repugnicant
Red Neck Repugnicant's picture


Fri, 01/14/2011 - 22:34 | 878130 Red Neck Repugnicant
Red Neck Repugnicant's picture


Fri, 01/14/2011 - 18:37 | 877665 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Then why did they make the second and third ones?  They ran out of inventory aftr the first one, and never had any more.

Oh, that's right, you just lie because you're a fundamentally dishonest person who hates any form of honesty, especially when it comes to currency.  

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 22:36 | 878116 Red Neck Repugnicant
Red Neck Repugnicant's picture



Fri, 01/14/2011 - 22:50 | 878192 trav7777
trav7777's picture

Dennie Green?

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 11:36 | 878201 Red Neck Repugnicant
Red Neck Repugnicant's picture


Sat, 01/15/2011 - 19:54 | 879179 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

Red Neck Fisherman,

You changed your answer to him. Interesting. You accused him of changing his answer to you to cover up mismathunderstandings regarding probability a few threads back. You called him "a bigger fish" and "barrister."  You got your ego caught up with him a bit. Just saying!

It's okay, I find him interesting too. Seems smart and can justify his racism smooth as silk. I ask him about hate and what is in his heart; maybe he does not see my comment to him or maybe he just junks me like a pussy. I can't know. Maybe we should start a fan club?

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 18:36 | 877658 Strider52
Strider52's picture

Geez, can you imagine the day when the London fix is at, say $30, but to get phizz you gotta pay $90+ ??

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:52 | 877322 BeeTee
BeeTee's picture



Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:55 | 877333 BeeTee
BeeTee's picture

Apologies.  Not usually prone to sudden out-bursts!

Just checking my captcha!

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:56 | 877340 swissinv
swissinv's picture


Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:58 | 877344 swissinv
swissinv's picture

Buillonvault has only vaults in Zurich, London and NY... There is enough liquidity on BV at the moment...

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:59 | 877346 Dr. Porkchop
Dr. Porkchop's picture

I'm gonna wait a bit. The price may come down a bit more, may not, but I've been buying piecemeal. I want to consolidate a bit of cash and make a bigger purchase. I'm never able to take advantage of the local dealer's volume discounts.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:44 | 877505 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Find a different dealer....that sells for best price to begin with.

My new dealer sells for less than AMP%^, for ONE Coin.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:00 | 877353 OzWorld
OzWorld's picture

It looks like JPM withdrew 6.3 Moz of silver from SLV to cover COMEX silver position this week.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:00 | 877357 The Count
The Count's picture

Gold und silber lieb ich sehr, kanns auch gut gebrauchen... 

(German saying. Go translate that, bitchez!)

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 18:51 | 877718 Croesus
Croesus's picture

Unheilig rules!

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:01 | 877358 RobotTrader
RobotTrader's picture

Looks like Joe Six piled in right at the top?

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:04 | 877369 Renfield
Renfield's picture

Oh, was that the top?

For how long?

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:11 | 877393 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

Jim Rogers thinks you might hit $2,000.00 within 10 years, but a bloodletting for the foreseeable future, who knows ... ??

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:06 | 877373 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture


Mozilo reached out to borrowers as part of a "little experiment" to understand the reasoning behind making only minimum payments on so-called pay-option loans, a practice that boosts the total amount due, the 67-year-old CEO told investors Wednesday in New York.

"What we're finding out is that they're pretty smart," Mozilo said. "It's like voters: Individually they're sort of idiots, but collectively they seem to make the right decisions."


 -"CEO Makes Call on Pay-Option Loans: It's Risky", from Bloomberg News.


Fri, 01/14/2011 - 18:31 | 877615 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Nice comparison you douche.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 19:35 | 877827 Gunther
Gunther's picture

IF that is the top, "Michel," the German version of J6P, bought.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:01 | 877359 A Man without Q...
A Man without Qualities's picture

I've been trying to buy silver coins in Germany - what I am hearing is there are silver merchants buying anything that is priced by weight (i.e. were there is no premium for the artifact) and melting it down for bullion.  This means even things like the Aussie Kookaburra is being melted down. 

What's interesting is as a general rule of thumb, silver artifacts prior to 1815 carry a premium, because Napoleon was melting down anything he could find to pay his troops.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 19:29 | 877802 The Count
The Count's picture

Well, I was just in Austria last month and happened to pass by some coin shops in Vienna. Plenty of Silver coins.... 25, 50, 100 Schilling (silver content varies a lot by date, 60-80%), German 5 and 10 Mark... so no shortage at all. Must be one of those rumors that come out of nowhere. The common dates cost roughly spot plus 10-15%.

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 16:22 | 878956 AGoldhamster
AGoldhamster's picture

Try to buy greater quantities! Have you noticed how many silver bars are still available at proaurum? None.

BTW in Austria you have 20% VAT on silver - only sheep buy silver here!

In Germany 7% VAT.

AND: Point is not what Silver costs now and whether silver is still available (thx god it is) - but what Silver costs in 3 or 5 or 10 years - or 15 or 20 when retired!

Anything in between is just noise! Not?!

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:01 | 877360 simon says
simon says's picture


If JPM is so short, who is long that trade??   It must be the US Govt (US Treasury) or US Fed, right?  Objective of course is to lower visible inflation rate aka value of USD.  What is the mechanism for the Govt/Fed to invest in Futures ...  an offshore SPV?  How does Govt/Fed settle losses/gains with JPM?   How does this all work?  Help!

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:02 | 877362 youngman
youngman's picture

They want the price down because it makes the USD and Euro for that matter....look good....if gold and silver went sky high...panic would set in in the banking sector....can you say a run on the banks...and in the politicians..can you say liars..

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:04 | 877367 philgramm
philgramm's picture

OT, this is the report on Tunisian developments today at  Not one mention of food riots. The reason cited for the president fleeing the country is "protests over poor living conditions."

Look here Americans, this is a third world country and it has poor living conditions. You should be happy to be living in a stellar noncorrupt country like the ole' USA.  Now go back to your jobs.............if you have them.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:04 | 877371 Dr. Porkchop
Dr. Porkchop's picture

Silver fundamentals vs. Fiat debt and zero will to reign it in. That's all there is to keep in mind.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:08 | 877380 Xibalba
Xibalba's picture

Is JPM is buying up the worlds above ground supply?  Makes sense for them to be short the paper while storing up physical, no?

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 19:39 | 877837 Lord Koos
Lord Koos's picture

Supposedly JPM has 90% of the world's copper supply.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 19:48 | 877867 Xibalba
Xibalba's picture

silly bankers...

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:08 | 877381 Dr. Gonzo
Dr. Gonzo's picture

How could they be out of silver? Everyone is selling. Price is down another $1 today. There should be piles of unwanted silver everywhere. Could Jon Nadler please explain this to me?

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:12 | 877398 Danielius
Danielius's picture

Nadler should learn a new song.  I got so tired of his only song long ago, and just stopped following him.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:09 | 877386 kadriana288
kadriana288's picture

I noticed Apmex put a later date on it's 2011 coins and at last check, they only have 177 20 coin rolls left for preorder.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:11 | 877390 Threeggg
Threeggg's picture

There is a "We buy Gold" store not to far from me. (they dont sell because I went in there about 1.5 years ago)

I went to the Dentist today (right next door)

Now the sign says..............

"We buy Gold + Silver"


Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:33 | 877463 Xibalba
Xibalba's picture

same here....

Sat, 01/15/2011 - 06:23 | 878481 spdrdr
spdrdr's picture

Poor bastard!  Going to the dentist should be a rare event...... should have looked after your teeth a bit better as a kid.

Fri, 01/14/2011 - 17:13 | 877405 Jack Sheet
Jack Sheet's picture

Maybe Eric Sprott just cleaned them out. I guess the supply constraints depend on the amounts ordered. There are plenty of other on-line dealers in GER with silver coins (eg 1 oz Philharmonics) or bars in stock and deliverable on short notice. Larger banks will also supply at comparable prices. Unfortunately silver coins in GER carry 7% VAT and bars 19% VAT. Better to stick to coins, which are available in weights of up to 10 kg (Perth Mint). Then hope that the coins appreciate by more than 7% over the year. Total premium over the spot Comex price is currently around 16% = 9% plus the 7% VAT.

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