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Bush Tax Cut Extension: DOA?
After watching the total pandemonium and maelstrom of lies out of Europe today, some may have forgotten that our own rulers are among some of the most incompetent, corrupt, and stupid people on earth. Luckily, here is Dick Durbin to remind us that nothing compares quite to the chaos emanating from D.C. - it appears the extension of the Bush tax cuts which until early this week was taken for granted, until yesterday when Moody's implied a permanent extension of such cuts would lead to a rating cut, may have been all but killed after preliminary discussions between Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, and Mitch McConnell, the chamber’s top Republican, “did not go well.” Bloomberg reports that not only is the Senate's #2 Democrat "not very optimistic" about the option of extensions, but nobody even has a clue what is going on: "I don’t even know what the options are at this moment,” said Washington Senator Maria Cantwell, a Democrat who serves on the tax-writing Finance Committee." Tangentially, the question of how this economy continues to chug along courtesy of central planning by an administration and a monetary institution, both of which are beyond clueless, will some day be the topic of extended Ph.D. papers (of course, by then having a Ph.D. will be perceived as the vilest form of socio-educational stigmata).
More on the total confusion in D.C., and why all those betting on a 2% pick in 2011 GDP due to continuation of this last stimulus, may have to reevaluate:
President Barack Obama has invited congressional leaders to the White House on Nov. 18 to discuss alternatives. Obama and most Democrats want to extend lower tax rates on only the first $200,000 of income for individuals and $250,000 for married couples filing jointly. Congressional Republicans say they want tax cuts to be extended for all Americans, including those with higher incomes.
Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus, a Democrat, said he’s “optimistic” that Congress will resolve its differences “because it is the right thing to do.”
‘Kajillion Ideas’
Baucus said he didn’t know exactly how an agreement would be reached. “There are a kajillion ideas floating around,” he said.
Michigan Representative David Camp told a meeting of business tax lobbyists today that members of his party would fight efforts to extend tax breaks for middle-income households for a longer period than for richer Americans.
Such a proposal, advanced by some Democrats, “is a terrible idea and a total non-starter,” Camp, who is in line to chair the House Ways and Means Committee next year, told the Tax Council.
Unless Congress acts, marginal income tax rates will rise across the board, tax credits that benefit families will be slashed, and rates on capital gains and dividends will increase. A federal tax on estates worth more than $1 million also will be resurrected after expiring for 2010.
Not to mention capital gains tax associated selling. Don't forget the selling...
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douchebags
Don't worry. You can pay your taxes in kind with GM shares....
Don't mind paying more as long as they spend less...
We all know as long as we have taxes we will have big government to go with it...all I want is mass paycuts across the board for government employees since I will be making less too.
Good Point
I have read articles stating a 2,000% rise in six figure gubment workers
What do you think 10% accross the board?
Good point, whoever junked you will probably junk me for calling them a tool. I like to say everybody is fiscally conservative to a degree: we all want to pay less taxes and get more services for those tax dollars.
The previous article about the 2000% increase in federal earners over $100k was excellent. Our elected officials are pegged at $175' salaries, but some of their aides can earn upwards of $200k for double or triple duty on committees. We elect officials to a)represent us, b)write legislation, and c)serve as co-equal government; yet they a)represent special interest, b)outsource legislation to aides doubling as lobbyists, and c)act as though "checks and balances" is a brand of toilet paper rather than the very fabric upon which the Constitution was written.
There are plenty of issues which need to be addressed before cutting taxes, tax bracket creep, capital gains, and the need for a financial transaction tax top the list(I know you guys will despise that, but volatility and velocity are brothers). As for the estate tax, we need to make sure, once and for all, that services received during life do not require taxation of the dead.
"Don't mind paying more as long as they spend less..."
The past is riddled with these broken promises. The "paying more" part has always come true, the "spending less" part is forgotten well after the additional tax revenue is collected.
Which is how we got to this point in the first place.
...and conversely the spending more after the tax cuts, just ask Bush and the Republicans about medicare part D.
You think that sucks...
Congress plans to override HR-3808 veto, tomorrow
http://market-ticker.org/cgi-ticker/akcs-www?singlepost=2267432
so they're gonna steal our money and our homes....yawn
They can steal my landlord's place, just tell me where to send the rent check now.
One more nail in the Constitutional Coffin............
States Rights, are no moe.
Clearly the GOP have answered the call of the American people!
Yes! Hooray! The US electoral process has worked for the people yet again!!
Oh, wait....
Red team! Red team! Rah rah rah!
Any way to "Watch" these critters and see just who votes for this abomination this time??
I rarely cuss, but in reference to Reid/Pelosi/Obama allowing tax rates to rise in 2011 I can only think of one word: "fuck." Sorry.
...it's about the wealthiest 2% keeping their tax cuts. We know who the Republican congress works for.
I think the Ph.d=dipshit paradigm has already arrived (at least in finance/econ).
Bless you for that caveat. It turns out that while ALL sciences are but broken toys supplied to lab rats to see if they can hurt themselves, some folks do move on after such training to embrace a wider perspective. In that light such training (diligence, attention to detail, etc) is useful and also allows one to communicate the findings of interesting research to others.
Does that mean that Princeton Econ Ph.D.'s are not all interestingly demented? It seems they are and that their allegience to their witchcraft (much like that seen in Wharton MBAs) helps them remain blind. That's ok though. Makes for a fun world soup.
I work around a lot of PhDs, and some of them are pretty smart people who have dedicated their lives to improving the world around them. Others just followed the path of least resitance after that B.S. degree. But that's ok; the former need the latter's highly skilled, low-paid to get the work done.
But here's a serious question: what happens to science funding? I admit it; I'm a hanger-on, living of the largesse of the hardworking taxpayer. Do all you libertarians out there just want me to get a job? Frankly I don't care, but I am curious about the implications of our government budget/economic fiasco. I'm going to be a case study in brain drain if inflation ratchets up faster than my grant-funded (and philanthropy-supported) salary.
Biosci, you ask a good question.
I don't have a simple answer, but here is a framework for an answer:
Funding of science is a social responsibility - i.e. society must do this.
The reflexive political tick of the last century is to then equate government (the State) with society.
Libertarians would like to break that reflexive association, because it the State provides all the services required by Society, then Liberty suffers.
This century is providing numerous examples of how humans can coordinate, direct, and fund activities outside the traditional definitions of the State, or of Charity, or of the Corporations. These traditional institutions won't be absent, but they wont' be central.
I'm seeing interesting science get done (and applied) by incubators who leverage private investment with grants - some government, some foundation.
Elevated thematic thinking about science being a responsibility of society is so much manure in world where elevated thematic thinking gets done in the 5 minutes at the end of the day when you're not plowing a field so you won't starve that winter.
Forget your BS wallowing in technological advance. Mankind's pinnacle achievements are behind us. Science is a *LUXURY* and if you are starving, you can't fund luxuries.
Societal Flowers for Algernon is inescapable and inexorable. There is NOTHING you can do about it.
The sooner you accept that, the better prospects your children have of being among the 1 billion people populating the Earth in 15 years.
Mankind's pinnacle achievements are behind us.
And everything that can be invented has?
Hey. WTF?
I think he is referring to the concept of life in the age of the scientific-barbarian and as it applies to the global depopulation agenda. Pedro Albizu Campos said back in the 1940's that the contemporary era was not the atomic era, rather it was the era of the scientific-barbarian.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tbp8bI7Nl0
Scientific progress nowadays is not a function (nor a responsibility) of society but instead of a group of barbarians who pursue a global scientific dictatorship.
I was checking my university's natural resource department webpage and nowadays just about all the research is either grant oriented or extremely abstract. All the classic Nat Res majors, including mine, were abolished. Only policy & planning is left standing (duh!). There is only one professor who is actually speciallizing in an area of utmost practicality: ditches & their water pollution interaction in the environment. Guess what...most water pollution moves around the countryside environment via a ditch! Culvert & drainage design, bitchez!
The global depopulation agenda is real. Take heed
So.. good science will get done when a critical mass of people have security in their standard of living allowing them free time to read and learn. It has always been this way.
Thank you, Lewy, for the considered response. It's a nice ideal. However, I just can't imagine a libertarian state, however educated and well-meaning, committing to a major long-term science program. A series of one-offs, sure, but nothing sustained.
As I see it, the main risk is that the state is neither educated nor well-meaning, as in a libertarian "state" (an inherent oxymoron?) there would be little collective energy applied to the overall education of the populace. Going a step further, the organic structure of a large number of relatively independent communities is inherently unstable. The urge to centralize is a strong one -- people are always looking for a leader -- and the "state" is going to spend a lot of energy fighting these threats. Which will require collective action by the rest of the communities, or at least a highly motivated subset of them. Which is inherenly unlikely under the libertarian paradigm.
But maybe I'm just a cynic.
Biosci I want you to share your great ideas with me and other potential investors / customers. Money will follow good ideas. Keep the government out of it.
Thanks for the vote of confidence, and I mean that sincerely, but that is absolutely the wrong mindset. I don't care one way or the other about keeping the government out of it but science is inherently non-commercial. Sometimes great commercial opportunity derives from it but that's never been the motivation. There's no business plan for discovery, nor a dollar value value on just figuring out how stuff works.
To all you doomers above, yes, I am explicitly ignoring you.
Whereas the CEO == dipshit paradigm has yet to see full flower.
Here's is your alternatives? Cut the tax or you will get crash the market?
Consider the source (CNBC/Reuters):
Published: Tuesday, 16 Nov 2010 | 5:03 PM ET
By: Reuters "The top Democrat in the U.S. Senate said on Tuesday he was willing to consider a temporary tax cut extension for all income levels, a step that could pave the way for a possible deal with Republicans on Bush-era tax cuts....""willing to consider" hilarious just like obama "willing to consider" others ideas.
translation: I say I'm willing to "consider" in the media so I can claim I'm reasonable and embrace "bipartisanship"
all BS
clocks ticking on this one - and the big dog is a socialist ideologue (this means if you can afford to feed and cloth yourself he hates you)
oops
What's up with Dick's Sporting Goods today??
What is amazing is how many of these retail stocks are unfazed by the following issues:
1) Bush tax cuts extended or not?
2) Inflation or deflation, which is it?
3) Emerging markets decoupling, or not?
4) QE2, will it work or will it fail?
Maybe Eric King can muster up an interview with the CEO to answer some of these questions. Perhaps it will keep KWN alive for a few more weeks while the commodity sector undergoes its usual and customary 40% annual correction.
guns and ammo for the holidays
Did somebody say ammo?
http://gun-deals.com/ammo
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/
They have a smoking deal on the RA45T Win Ranger Talon...My personal fav.
Also great deal on Fed HST 9mm and 9mm+p talon loads.
FAST Delivery too... I use em all the time, as I run about 400rds a month through my .45 (not the RA45T's though)
I would bet that it is new gun buyers driving up sales (if that is what is driving stock up).
This place is legit. I buy my stuff there. Shipped out of Texas and fast. Order is always correct. Prices fuggin excellent .
Panther 308 LR - keep the hippies in line
Baseball bats to cracks skull?
Ropes to hangs?
Bullets?
Camping gear.
Obviously I' m no PhD, as you all have suffered through my grammatical errors in the past but don't you think the retail stocks going up have something to do with thanksgiving arriving soon and it is the busiest time for retail?
Very obviously.
Guns, ammo, tents, sleeping bags.
It's Maria CantVoteWell, BTW.
wow - someone junked you?
anyone care to fess up to ur worship of cantwell? embarrassing
Ah yes, the one who squawked about the Wamu deception and JPM takeover on the floor. How did the investigation go Senator ?. Anyone even charged ?.. Cantwell is a disgrace..
It is amazing that the bureaucrats in Washington DC have let the issue of Federal Estate Tax waffle this long. Whether you support the idea of a Federal Estate Tax or not, it is absurd to leave so many people with estates to wonder how to plan for their own demise.
Get with the program, bureaucrats!
Since they can readily shelter their assets before death, who fucking cares?
Just let them expire at year end.
Because tax cuts for the mega rich are so stimulating.
Ah, supply-siders, the only people with more conviction in their faith than Christians or Muslims.
The banking royalists are the bondholders. Bondholders, in a pinch, will always error toward higher revenues.
Bondholders support killing the extension. Moodys telegraphed that this week.
The battle is between the GOP platform and the bondholders. Those are the best battles to watch. I expect the GOP will fall in line and blame Obama.
you been spot-on this week, man. This is how I see it as well.
There's a battle between the austerity crowd which is the aristocracy holding all the claim tickets and those trying to ward off deflation.
Bernanke for his faults, does not want to go down in history as the one who oversaw the divestiture of the nation to the oligarchy. Perhaps he fears the rise of the inevitable Hitler figure.
Or maybe Putin...let's recall what happened when Putin came to power. All the former oligarchs were jailed or RAN TO ISRAEL. The purge is coming under a collapse...it's inevitable.
I'd just prefer not to live through the 10 year period of hell nor the aftermath.
I'm with you. Austerity/aristocracy = absolutely. In fact, just a few years ago, our textbooks taught us this about the Great depression. Everyone in present day ACCUSED the old Fed of self-dealing by tightening the money supply and not stimulating. What happened to all those people? Did they get smoked out in six months?
I agree on the Bernank. Born a man driven to challenge the status quo? Unlikely. Fool who missed the train, yes. But - nonetheless - doing something interesting and contradictory to the ABA playbook NOW. Props.
Putin? Yep. I don't trust any facts from either side of those propaganda machines. The NY Times ran Yukos guy's whole speech to the judge. wow, really? I wanted to believe it, really. But, I still don't. If you stand back and blur your eyes, they're still sovereign over their oligarchs or they ARE the enriched, selfish oligarchs.... results still coming in.
The collapse can only be avoided if the U.S. TREASURY takes their investment and sweat equity out of int'l production. You pay for the security of your production, especially when we open markets with blood. There's enough cash flow to do it, easily. But, that fight is the big one, enemies within. Odds less than 5% that we do it before its too late. When it's past that point, then people SEIZE production and it swings too far the other way.
An enlightened oligarchy or government would deal this out. We're not even close. That's ridiculous. Education is absent on these wisdoms. We teach names/dates, so we get more names/dates.
No one ever claimed Marie Antoinette was a genius.
i am a republican. it is pure [ignorant] political dogma to/to want to continue these tax cuts. we go more broke every day borrowing more to pay our way. we need tax increases and massive spending cuts. ten year plan to put the country back to financial health. anything else makes the days of pain worse, much worse.
Asking for spending cuts is like asking for a magic unicorn for Christmas. Sure it may get promised but come Christmas morning find it's another bag of underwear and socks. Bring on the tax cuts! Let the Fed buy the bonds! It's not like they could raise taxes high enough to cover their wild eyed spending anyway. We're already bankrupt, drifting around the black hole that is SS/Medicare, past the event horizon and hurling into the core.
Crotchless underwear -- easier access for the sodomy to come.
"Asking for spending cuts is like asking for a magic unicorn for Christmas." True
As long as we continue to accept the moral claim that someone’s need for something (anything) constitutes a rightful claim on the public purse, there is no way to constrain public spending. None. This is because anyone who stands in the way of such a “rightful” claim is, by that act, a “rights” violator (i.e., immoral).
Moreover, since there is a limit on how much tax can be extracted from working stiffs and passive income earners before they start to reduce output and thus taxable income, taxes cannot be raised sufficiently to cover ever-expanding claims. This means deficit spending is unavoidable.
Since deficit spending is inevitable under such a system, bankruptcy is also. The math is as unforgiving as a lynch-mob.
The equation of need with right needs to be decisively overturned. Until and unless that happens, all the rest of the talk of deficits, taxes, spending and such is just so much pointless (and tedious) political theatre.
No one ever cuts spending (as a whole). Since they will not cut spending, I say Taxed Enough Already!
Bad days ahead. Batten down the hatches.
Agreed. Must...keep...sense of humor.
Do,
agreed,
These tax cuts if overturned, will guarantee NO jobs recovery.
When they take these, and your home mtg tax deducts,school/prop/county deducts, there goes the housing industry for sure.
Why should I keep my home, thats paid for, and get nailed for everything on these something for nothings plates?.
Screw them, I will sell, and downsize to nada, and let some other schmucks try for the Golden Ring.(luckily I live where it will sell for a profit).
The main thing these pricks do not get, is you FIRST must have to have jobs,and you must have a livable income, in order to pay taxes of any kind.
Small / Middle sized bus owners already working w/ 2-5 employees doing the work of 10, will say F-IT, and close shop.
Communism kills incentives,if there is NO upside to working harder, more,producing, hiring, then WHY do it?.
Answer, You do not...............you become a Welfare recip also.
Comrades!
Hey, maybe this is our chance to actually bring down this house of cards.
Increase the taxes as outlined and let 'er rip. A gaping hole in the cash flows.
That will do it for sure.
I mean, how much good did the "tax cuts" do in the last 10 years?
"i am a republican."
"we need tax increases"
Dear statist,
Speak for yourself.
p.s. You can pay more taxes any time you like. Mail your check today.
p.p.s. Will you be hiring someone to get more money from me (chickenshit), or will you do that yourself?
It's insane, the slavemasters have even brainwashed the slaves into clamoring for more taxes. It's really stockholm-esq. "Rape me again, you bad, bad man."
we've become a masochistic society.
Joe got multi junked for that. Beam me up scottie, there is no intelligent life left.
Anyone with your dipshit attitude can't have enough money to make it worth my while.
Trust me, kato, being a realist gets you nowhere on this site.
chet,
You misunderstand, WE are realists, WE know what it takes to run a company, and a country, and a household.And the ones running the household of America, have given it away in spades.
The problem is, THEY have created a monster that cannot be fed crumbs,it is a LEVIATHAN.
All consuming, if we had 100% Employment,No welfare, no freebies, small Gvt, it's too late.
They have killed the Goose that laid the Golden Eggs.
.
.
Kato wants more golden goose pate liberally spread on his buns to keep that ponzi going for just a little more.
Who the fuck is "they"? "They" is YOU.
Trust me instead Kato, you are not anything close to a realist.
I'd support tax increases in direct proportion to the rate of reduction in federal spending, not to be confused with a reduction in the acceleration of federal spending.
LOL - right
you give YOUR $ to politicans
"our own rulers are among some of the most incompetent, corrupt, and stupid people on earth." - something we can export?
They are working hard to weaken the dollar so exporting this nonsense should become easier......
The IMF exports that crap all the time, ask any emerging market what requirements were put before them.
Fuck how hard is it to compromise, make permanent the bush tax policy for anyone making under $1MM (helps S corporation owners) and let all above expire. Keep current levels on capital gains and dividends for any security held for one quarter or more.
Edit: After reading my comment I feel foolish for offering solutions, Washington is not about solutions....
+++
ALL government is designed to create problems, not solve them. That's a 'make work' policy begun a long time ago.
However, there is some method to that madness: there are 6.5 billion people on this planet and only 2.5 million jobs to be done. Result: governments create phantom positions to keep the natives from rising up and cutting off the heads of the elite.
This will become ever more obvious as millions and millions more lose their livelihoods over the coming years.
If you have children, and they have no particular talent, you may want to get them started trying to find a government paid use for their time. Calling it work may even prove to be antiquated.
And read your Kurt Vonnegut for a map of the future.
Don't feel foolish. Your approach is entirely reasonable.
No welfare for the wealthy. They benefitted disporportonatlet from the tax cut.
The 1M+ will make certain no "real" small businesses owners get screwed.
++Rag. I also believe 1 million is the sweet spot. At least $750k. But, $250k? Obama has no clue on small business. If you are a wage earner, $250,000 level isn't too bad, however, if you are a small businessman, believe me, you don't feel it and it feels like your making $60k and that is not even adjusted for all of the extra hours you work. It is all eaten up in the cash flow of accts payable-receivable.
Which is a bigger drain on small businesses, taxes (which they only pay if successful) or usurious interest (which they pay either way)?
Good ideas (how dare you).
The only change I would make is for capital gains to stay at current rate for first $100,000 per year. Above $100,000, kick the rate up to 20%.
agree!
But - check out how many beans there are between 250-1M. The bondholders want that chunk and the GOP is flash funded by the plus 1M crowd.
That's why compromise isn't easy. 99% of the nation agrees with you, but...
THEY DON'T RUN THE FUCKING COUNTRY.
+320M
DOA - You are joking??? Repubjokes will get the Bush tax cuts extended for all for 2yrs (and take credit...never mind the additional $250b/yr to the deficit) while Demojokes will get UE extended claims for their millions of out of work constituents (at the cost of another $50b/yr).
To get these done they'll need to raise that debt ceiling quick!!! Look for another Christmas or New Year massacre.
DOA?!? Not a chance - these are our representatives!!! The best money can buy! As long as QE exists and money is free, politicians (and American citizens) will continue to push for more, more, more. We are going to the wall on this one. We may even breach the $2T annual deficit mark in '11 w/ all the spending and unwillingness to collect revenue.
What does it matter? I mean really? If you find yourself 10 million dollars underwater, why not go 20 million underwater? Once payment on debt becomes impossible there is not a huge incentive to stop racking up debt.
Precisely. Politics is about kicking the can. This lame duck session is fortunate to be able to kick the can to the next class. Expect nothing until jan. After january expect nothing until presidential election. The water rises in the mean time.
The political classes will do nothing to help us. Actually they will do their damnedest to hurt us. Though I expect Mr. Market to start throwing his weight around even more. If the Fed decides they can tell Mr. Market to F-Off in the stock market and bond market I daresay he will wander into the commodity and Forex market. Can't keep him out of all the games at the same time.
For debt, its going parabolic now, I can't see them changing course. It's do or die time for the looters, need to get their piece for their island in the sun because at some point in the future there will be nothing left to steal.
Much real politique here on ZH
The only legislation accomplished between 18 November and the end of the year was the Fed and IRS rushed into law Christmas eve 1913 while deliberative Congressionals were going on vacation
The market declines reflected this today
Usury will be the largest budget item soon
We stopped being a representative Republic some time ago, and are now run and ruined by a den of corporate foundation money trust oligarchic thieves buying votes with promises of something for nothing
Bingo. Time to replace federal reserve private notes with U.S. notes.
We have government for a reason. We gave it to the private and this all happened.
Some people better wake up.
Ayyyeee, it matters.
Add $2T debt in '11 @ 5% int/yr = $100b/yr interest costs (5%=50yr ave on 10yr T's)
Anything less than 5% GDP gain in '11 will result in greater deficits (5% GDP growth should = 5% tax rev growth (5% x $2T tax revs = $100b)
We are not dead (yet)...we can restructure all unfunded liabilities, we can work to slowly pay down public debt -
I refuse to become a defeatist. We are either living or dying and I got some living to do and I'd prefer to do it in the country previously known as America.
FUCK HOPE
Right, sure the liabilities can be restructured...if you murder the old. I know a few people near SS age and even people who are for small government but if you talk about taking their SS they get really pissed "I paid for it!". Lo and behold old people vote! So yes if the political class is willing to destroy the tax feeders then sure. However it's more likely that Jessica Alba comes knocking at my door tonight (universe if your listening, prove me wrong!). With the raw number of tax feeders in this country fixing the tax feeder problem is impossible in a democratic system. Listen to the new freshmen, they are not going to cut any of the real spending. So they might trip around the edges but it will hardly even slow the rate of increase on spending. Military is sacred, and SS/Medicare is holy. And if we become even less democratic recent history tells us they will be in bed with the banks.
What's defeatist about looking at a situation and making a realistic judgement about it? If your team is down 77 to 0 going into the last 2 minutes do you tell your team "Ok guys we can come back from this!"? That's not being optimistic, that's delusional! The only way to purge the system is to DEFAULT. Fuck the banks, fuck the bond holders, they should have known better. We can't pay it back, it's impossible. We died totally in the early 00s, and really our fate was sealed in the 60s, we are just a corpse shambling forward feeding on the living.
Actually, I agree. I guess when I say not to be a defeatist is to look for how we will win the war. I agree to win the war (and become a sustainable, hopeful place again) we likely need to lose the battle. What I mean is it looks like we will spend ourselves into oblivion where there is no way out but default (and you are likely right that we are for all political intents and purposes...we are there). Balancing budgets and such is likely a fools errand now.
So, it's now just the structure of the default and the restructuring that need be discussed. This is where the "hope and lack of defeatism" is needed. We can have a functioning economy, country again. Won't happen without a lot of shared sacrifice and likely some kind of fight to acheive it. But acheive a future for my kids is my aim. Hopefully more ZH'ers will think this way rather than simply personally trying to avoid the downfall and be among the few left living well in America. A little less I and a little more we is what it's gonna take to remake America...and wouldn't suprise me if there is some serious ugliness before we get there...but we need to have a collective vision of "there".
Default is the given...it's how and what happens after that will define us.
Already in oblivion. Have to default, there is no other way. The longer the charade goes the more capital is lost. My guess is they will kick the can till every last scrap of capital is consumed.
I could not disagree more with the "we" concept. Thinking in group terms got us here. Only individualism will save us. If you can work with fellow individuals great, but the collective ideals got us into this mess and they sure as hell will not get us out. That is why you are seeing a lot of us scramble to preserve our capital, because we know in the collectivist system the primary goal it to aggregate the wealth of all but the guys on top, and then feed it to the oligarchs via the state. I'd really rather not have to pay for the "greater good" in this system and then the cure to be paying into a system for "the greater good". That's why some of us are looking at leaving. not only will the US get worse, many are proposing more wealth and capital confiscation among the middle classes as the cure!
To remake America the oligarchs have to be forced out. However with a huge % of the population suckling at the Gov teat this is impossible without a collapse. The collapse and default is the cure. Only a default can shake the parasites loose from the system. And even then if they are tenacious they may well still hold on, look at many 3rd world countries and their parasite classes.
If you want to keep the future open for your kids make sure they learn a tech/science/math based skill and other languages. Don't use all your energy fighting a losing fight, invest it in your children and their future no matter where they may end up. Odds are the future is not going to be the US, not my preference, but can't argue with the facts. All our ancestors migrated to NA (even the Native Americans), why should we expect migration for a better life to end?
Shameful,
hope for a better day is what keeps a society functioning. A better day need not be the current construct of more stuff or money but my vision for our future is the opportunity to live, prosper (define that as you may), and enjoy liberty. I lived as an expat for 6 years in Asia and Europe and enjoyed it. But that's not my home. Those aren't my roots. I feel I need to fight for this place and the potential within it even if the odds aren't on my side. Hell, honestly, I don't give a shit 'bout more than my little world here in Oregon but if folks think the same and stand up for their locales the whole will work again.
The "we" I speak of is the shared vision of folks again responsible for their retirement, responsible for raising their kids, responsible for saving money in case they lose their job, RESPONSIBLE for themselves. This was a shared vision and value. It's been lost globally so may as well blow on the coals to restart the fire here in America as anywhere else?
As a student of history, I hope this is just another swing of the pendulum and that we are at the zenith from the center.
Totally agree nothing is more important than raising happy, strong, well adjusted kids who share these values. Even if we change America by a couple children at a time, it's still moving the right direction. Multiply that by millions and we got something.
Basically, we're fucked seven ways from Sunday in trying to fix the current system...so let's focus on what's next and the grass won't be any greener elsewhere for doing it. We need a new generation of citizen statesmen as we come through this (one term only btw) w/ the vision and conviction for a better future.
Too bad your "new generation" is too busy trying to get over on others to think about such platitudes as governance and responsibility.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ael9T4ELq2w
The oligarchs have to be forced out?
How? With a quiet, private, individual remedy? AIN'T gonna happen. Force and opposing force.
You NEED a bigger opposing force. There's only one. You-through the government or a total violent revolution. I'd suggest it's far easier to have the government displace the oligarchs.
You've got your best argument yet.
Now - all you have to do is get the oppositional parties to AGREE. The oligarchs have seeded disagreement even on the core notion of currency, usury and debt.
The only and easiest way out of this is the GREENBACK solution, public banks, north dakota. From there, you're free to make other suggestions, but no one's getting ANYWHERE without a scaled, certain, specific, easy-to-explain replacement. The Greenback works. Hell, the Chinese have the same essential Greenback system but no one stops to notice. Instead, we run commercials about how they own all our debt. Sure, how'd they get there? With the Greenback and by keeping private banking interests SERVING the people, not the other way around.
Private industry, public banks. We're closer to it than they are. We just have to make the bold switch.
we CAN'T pay down the debt...EVER.
Do you REALLY believe that we should REPAY banks with interest in REAL production and REAL work for fucking capital they CONJURED from thin fucking air to lend to us?
EFF that. Screw the banks, tell these goddamned usurers to go fuck themselves. Run them all back to their stupid little apartheid state like Putin did.
They don't find *themselves* underwater. They are working for clients that are. And bless their souls they are trying to find workable solutions even though short-sighted folks ( !!!!! ) might not understand the need to go in the direction they have chosen.
But keep the faith and it will all be ok.
(Bill Hicks sez: "And you can stop your internal dialogue on that one. OK? ok!)
/sarcasm off: as if this caveat is necessary./
AMT, bitchez!
It'll hurt me personally, but I'd rather the Bush tax cuts not be extended. It might even lead to smaller government. Huh? Well right now big government is a win-win (get services, pay nothing), since nobody notices the actual costs. Accurate price signals are a good thing, right?
TSA is a service? You can't even tip them!
http://evolvefish.com/fish/product1996.html
Look, the TP was elected to try to pretend that we can just take all the "welfare" back, usually from all those miscreants and brown people.
Nobody questions the holy military or the wars or Social Security or "keep your gov't hands off my medicare."
There isn't enough fat to cut if we fire every federal worker, end foreign aid (except Israel of course), and put up a border fence, and cut ALL welfare. Not even CLOSE.
Right.
However, if every int'l corporation that operated production facilities in the third world (where they rely on U.S. military to open the market and secure it during production) kicked 20% of their profits to the Big Guy (the U.S. Treasury, not their CEO), we'd have no deficit and no debt.
That's the game. The American people MUST learn to negotiate with their captors. It's a thin overlay of people, thin....
Not at all. It only takes a second to figure it out.
TOO BIG
The disYnited States is too vast, its 51 entitities too much in conflict with each other, possessing widely disparate interests, terrain, people, languages, and culture --think: the world wide web as it reflects the infinite tastes, proclivities, and desires of the those who surf it).
You want good governance? Simple. Bust the damned fucker up and make the pieces more manageable. No POTUS, he/she is a useless humanoid, there to provide nothing.
No, just drastically diminish the Federal Gov't and return to the structure outlined by the federalist papers. Each state will govern itself and it unique peoples accordingly, uniting only in common defense and trade.
Here, here!
Amen. The evidence is clear. Giving the USG more money is like giving your teenage son the keys to your car and a bottle of whiskey.....despite no confidence he will ever come back alive.
and giving it to private banks is like....
giving him all the above plus a crack pipe and a pat on the back by the local judge.
+1
No chance without the use of sovereign money. Fed Res has the monopoly on $
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l37RhdFGVsM
I don't know why they are stuck on the idea the 250k is rich. Why is a single guy able to make 200 without getting popped but a married couple gets a whopping 50k more? That is fucking retard math and I don't know why they're not called out on it. Usually the married folks have kids and can in no way shape or form be considered rich making 250 jointly. if it's 200 for non married how hard would it be to make the married hurdle 400. That would at least make some common sense. That being said I still haven't figured out how the govt decides it can't afford to let people keep more money that they work hard to earn as if the govt has implicit right of first refusal to the people money.
Good grief, you've been listening to too much Limbaugh.
It is a MARGINAL tax increase. ie., the tax starts at the 1st penny earned over $250,000k, not the $250,000 gross. If you're stupid enough to be caught by this tax, you're not spending enough on your accountant.
Dude first off don't insult me by claiming i listen to that big fat oxy hypocrite Rush. I think he's as big of a douche as I do Maddows. The point is why is the first penny for a single person making over 200 but for a married couple it's the first penny over 250. Why is a spouse marginalized, not being treated equally in the tax code because of a piece of paper. Secondly why is 250 the cutoff to being defined as rich? Any family of 5 no matter how inferior to you intellectually they are to you can honestly say they are not rich. Of course your need to feel so intellectually superior and insult others may be clouding your ability to actually understand some simple concepts. You must be one of those limousine liberals given your need to call some one stupid, douchebag.
"If you're stupid enough to be caught by this tax, you're not spending enough on your accountant. "
We are all Timmy now.
EDIT: And here is what Einstien would say.
"Albert Einstein Any man who can drive safely while kissing a pretty girl is simply not giving the kiss the attention it deserves"
wisefool - Stop paying taxes. Timmy is not a pretty girl, but sometimes the ugly girls have to show you how to do it.
You have a valid point. Maybe their reasoning is that a married couple would have more deductions (children, mortgage) would be my guess.
single guy gets same mortgage deduction and having 3 kids i can tell you the tax deductions are inconsequential. I remember when we had our kid in December and everyone was like yeah you got in for the deduction just in time. When I saw that it amounted to about 3k at the time I couldn't for the life of me figure out what all the fuss was about.
Yes it seems it is unfair and I would tend to agree with you that the amount should be increased for couples. Couples also share expenses whereas a single guy has to pay them alone. A single guy would pay more in base taxes than a married couple and can't claim head of household unless he or she is supporting another person that lives with them.
GFD, I have made north of 200k and 250k many times...that's rich. GTFO here with the fucking crocodile tears about how you are poor or really middle class earning 10x as much as the bottom 50%.
How the fuck do kids ADD SO MUCH to your bottom line that you still aren't rich on 250k? This is nonsense. And, I have two of them, full time, and the bitch pays no child support.
250k is inarguably rich...look at the freaking tax breakdown. 100k is rich relative to what the VAST amount of people earn. Those who refuse to accept this need to pull the head out of the ass
I don't want the Bush tax cuts to expire and it has nothing to do with myself paying more.
I don't want to give the government the ability to grow or spend more at all. They need to cut the fucking spending already and shrink themselves. The government getting more money is like giving a drug addict more meth, heroin, coke, whatever. They need to be thrown in jail and detox.
I think this is the most poorly run government since the inception of the United States of America. The last thing they need is more money. What are they gona' do? Give it to Obama to take another $200,000,000 a day vacation? This is fucking retarted.
It certianly seems to be one of the most dysfunctional congresses. But I have a feeling they want to outdo themselves next congress and so on and so forth into infinity. Until we get a dictatorship. And, no, we are not living in one nor have we lived in one. I'm talking about an honest-to-God one. One that takes you outback and shoots you.
Well said.
Rangel needs a defense fund; let the cuts expire.
It isn't just the autopilot tax increases that need to be addressed, there is also the estate tax, AMT, and a boatload of tax credits that die on new years eve. How does a business function with these DC morons when you don't even know how much you should withhold from employees' paychecks come January? (That's going to be a mess - it's probably already too late for the big payroll processing companies to reprogram their systems)
My Dear Friends,
This is indeed a momentous occasion. For the first time, we have seen/heard the word "kajillion" used by one of our Government officials.
We will be hearing this word a lot more in talks about future QE plans.
Kajillion. Get used to it.
Warmest Regards,
H.
From the files of the absurd I just read where Obama is now pounding the table for Congress to pass the Dream Act. While Rome burns our dear leader, the Douchebag continues to fiddle.
While TSA goons are sexually assaulting your wife under the guise of stopping terrorists, the southern border is WIDE open. Hundreds of thousands of illegals and who knows who are pouring over the border sucking up freebies and sprouting more MS-13 gangs. It's been this way at least since Reagan. A total disregard by federal agencys of immigration laws. They even sue states that try to stem the tide of illegals. The absolute insistence by both parties to ignore and pooh pooh this state of affairs should leave no one in doubt about how concerned they really are about terrorism. The TSA T&A grab is nothing more than a population mind fuck.
Those who think that borrowing instead of taxing will result in lower government spending are completely delusional. That's exactly what we've been doing for the last decade and we've gone from $5T to over $13T in ten years.
The only thing that stops government spending is a motivated citizen who can vote. Pushing the taxes on children who don't vote does nothing to stop the spending.
In short, if the spending occurs either way, the only moral decision is for citizens to tax themselves, not their children, for today's government spending.
What about the children I'm trying to raise today. They can't afford for me to have anymore of my income commandeered by the govt as they like to be educated, clothed, fed housed and what not. Actually the only moral thing is for the government to quit making promises to the people that can't possibly be kept. But when did morality and US government ever come up in the same sentence. Obama is pushing Congress to pass the Dream Act. Wouldn't it be kind of nice if Obama and Congress would actually focus on restoring the dreams of actual tax paying citizens. Why do we even consider, during tight times, giving away one thin dime to any other people. It would be like me paying my neighbors mortgage because he came up short. But the only way I can pay it is by putting it on my credit card. It's cool we want to help others while we're flush but when we are hanging on by our own fingernails then that kind of crap needs to stop.
"The only thing that stops government spending is a motivated citizen who can vote."
Nope. Seems like the bailout went though despite overwhelming opposition. That's the brilliant thing about a 1 party 2 headed system. It gives the illusion of democracy but really it's a politburo the same as the Soviet Union. The only things that keeps government spending in check are fearful tax collectors, and bond buyers who know they won't get paid.
"...both of which are beyond clueless."
If Tyler Durden, or whoever the hell he/she is, were in power we can rest assured that Durden would know exactly what to do, when to do it, and whom to do it with. Durden would never succumb to political pressure or the need to keep millions fed and cared for.
Durden for President.
Never. Throwing hand grenades is a much more joyous experience than catching them. Besides, all politicians must be able to easily suffer fools. I doubt Tyler has such skill.
LOL @Cleanclog:
Were you aware that you were channeling Franz Zappa there?
"the question of how this economy continues to chug along courtesy of central planning by an administration and a monetary institution, both of which are beyond clueless"
$9 trillion in international reserve 'assets'?
You say "our own rulers are among some of the most incompetent, corrupt, and stupid people on earth" but the fact is the rest of the world is even stupider. They say those Asians are naturally smart but I don't think so.
It would take some of the US military's fine Afgan opium to make any American with half a brain in their head (and a TSA officers hand on their junk) to forget that.
I don't know about that. Due to a brain injury many say I only have half a brain and I've taken a ton of percocet today and that still didn't do the trick.
Obama will cave, they'll sell the market down and the spineless wimp will run crying to Michelle
My interpretation of your comment is that you are for the tax cuts to expire.
Or was that just a jab at a politician?
According to Beardsley Ruml, former Chairman of the New York Federal Reserve Bank in a speech given in January of 1946 and printed originally in American Affairs, Taxes for Revenues are Obsolete. They are for social and political goals, not for the raising of revenues. Given that the Fed can QE for revenue needs til the cows come home, we clearly are witnessing an argument over whom shall we punish and where shall we set the standard.
Any argument that we need the Bush tax cuts to expire to collect revenues needs to go back and read Ruml's article. This is a policy debate about social engineering and income redistribution. This is not a real debate about revenues.
What if they threw a tax hike and no additional revenue came?
Political posturing on both sides. Doesn't seem like anything is going to really get resolved on a lot of issues in the coming couple of months.
Of course nothing is going to get resolved and why should we want them to? So they can temporarily stabalize this horribly crooked system and continue robbing the people and bombing foreigners? The less they can "get done" the more we can get this show on the road and face the end game.
Why would the GOP compromise on anything? That's not what they ran on and it's not what a majority of people people voted for. McConnell was pretty clear about his #1 priority for the next 2 years. Champagne on ice, waiting for the final cherry to be popped. Privatizing social security. Everything on track.