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Canada Looking to Expand CPP
Bill
Curry of the Globe & Mail reports, Flaherty
seeks support for expanded CPP:
Jim Flaherty is urging the provinces to
support a plan to increase mandatory CPP premiums, but the federal
finance minister has stopped short of endorsing the kind of reform that
some critics say is necessary to ease a growing pension crisis.
Mr. Flaherty faces an uphill battle on Monday, when he wraps up a series
of meetings with provincial finance ministers, during which he must
convince two-thirds of them representing two-thirds of the population to
back his vision of an expanded Canada Pension Plan.
While the Conservative finance minister said it is too soon to
hammer out the details of any changes, he ruled out doubling CPP
benefits, a proposal endorsed by several unions.
He
also rejected a voluntary add-on to the CPP that would essentially
compete with private mutual funds – a central proposal of the federal
Liberal party. “We have a Canada Pension Plan that’s the envy of the
world,” Mr. Flaherty told reporters in Charlottetown Sunday in advance
of meetings in Lakeside that wrap up Monday.
“We reject a
voluntary plan because that would very much disturb the work of the
Canada Pension Plan which operates on a different basis, but the plan
can administer a modest, phased-in increase on the mandatory side.”
Pensions expert Keith Ambachtsheer, the director of the Rotman
International Centre for Pension Management who sat in on many of the
cross-country consultations conducted by the federal government, said
there are two main ways to increase CPP premiums.One is to
increase employer and employee premiums on all earnings up to the CPP’s
yearly limit, which is currently at $47,200. The second option would
be to increase that limit. Mr. Ambachtsheer said he prefers the second
option because it targets middle-income Canadians who aren’t saving
enough and avoids placing too high a burden on workers with low
incomes.
After more than a year of consultations, critics were
beginning to question whether the government was planning to simply let
the debate fizzle as memories of recession-triggered pension losses
faded.
But Mr. Flaherty
surprised many with a letter to his fellow finance ministers last week
siding with “modest,” mandatory premium increases to fund higher
benefits. He said Sunday that the feedback from Canadians was clearly
in favour of some kind of CPP reform.
“If we choose to
do nothing about that, then it’s likely that a group of Canadians – a
minority – will reach retirement age and not have sufficient savings to
take care of themselves in their retirement,” he said, predicting
those struggling retirees would then turn to governments for help. “So
my conclusion is that we should be proactive about this.”
In his letter, Mr. Flaherty also signalled
his support for efforts to encourage the private sector to create large
pension funds that could be used by small businesses and the
self-employed, who make up a large portion of Canadians who do not have
pensions.
Mr. Ambachtsheer said that as long as Ottawa
works to contain costs, private plans could address the CPP’s
shortcomings. “I don’t mind [the private sector] doing it, but they
have to do it at low cost,” he said. “Because historically the cost of
personal RSPs has been too high and everybody recognizes that. So if
we’re going to run these big, collective multi-employer pension plans,
they have to run at low cost.”
Mr.
Flaherty’s proposal won praise from left-leaning union leaders, while
right-leaning politicians and business groups express shock and warn of
job losses.
“This is very disturbing stuff,” Don Kelly,
vice president of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business,
said of the mandatory aspect of Mr. Flaherty’s proposal, which has so
far been supported by Ontario and rejected by Alberta. Mr. Kelly’s
organization sees CPP premiums as another “payroll tax,” in addition to
Employment Insurance premiums, which Ottawa also plans to raise.
“We could see major job losses if payroll taxes go up. All these things
are going to hit – EI, CPP, workers comp, minimum wage [increases] –
all of these things hit the payroll budgets of businesses.”
On
the flip side, union leaders who are in PEI to demonstrate outside the
finance ministers’ meetings found themselves praising the move.
“Flaherty’s an interesting guy I tell you,” said Ken Georgetti, the
President of the Canadian Labour Congress, which has been lobbying hard
on the pension file. “He is a fiscal conservative, but honestly I think
Flaherty gets it, both in terms of the whole economics of pensions,
and the reality of them, but also the politics of it … He’s a very
astute politician.”
I have to give credit to our
Finance Minister and Prime Minister. They understand what's at stake and
are taking the measures to shore up our pension system. It's not a done
deal, and there will be lots to iron out, but at least they're trying
to improve on the status quo. Hopefully, with some tougher governance
rules, Canada will become the pensions leader of the world.
»
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Costa Rica could be a very crowded place with expats drinking marg's by the pool and waiting for the world to run out of socialist thieves or suckers willing to believe the socialist's lies.
Anyway, I'm probably talking decades away..
Cheers indeed!
The guy wrote a letter declaring "We're not Greece, yet. But we want to be."
Any defined benefit plan is doomed to fail.
This is the same Flaherty/govt that abolished the royalty trusts 2-3 years ago under the guise of unfair advantage. The fact was that the only people who were disadvantaged were Manulife and other non trusts. This action single handedly took away monthly checks from Trustholderss (after this year) and dropped the value of trusts by $35 Billion.
Key to this is that Flaherty is amenable to private interests setting up pension plans that small businesses can contribute to. Funny, I think he spells private interests as "Manulife". Just follow the money. . . .
Pensions are for socialists...
You're all missing one important fact: governments are putting a gun to private sector heads and demanding that they PAY UP.
It's THEIR money, after all. Shouldn't they be the ones to decide how to invest it, if at all? And why should ANYONE be FORCED to worry about destitute pensioners?
In the REAL world, retirees sink or swim dependent on how well they have been investing and saving. It was this way before Roosevelt, before the 1930s, and the laws of nature and economics cannot be suspended on a whim by socialist governments, by Mr. Flaherty or by any other politician...
Quite apart from the problem of too too much money all seeking high returns, all "invested" in similar paper things and all predicated on conning ever more funds into those same investments...PONZI
You're all missing one important fact: governments are putting a gun to private sector heads and demanding that they PAY UP.
Exactly true! THEY dreamed up these programs and plans that would see them through until the end of THEIR days at our expense!
20 years ago this 42 year old made private arrangements to never ever have to depend on those programs. I'm not about to change my strategy now.
Socialism doesn't work. It's not nice to ask your kids to pay for your retirement. What is retirement anyway? To work 40 years and then expect to get 20+ years of basically a free ride?
Then their argument is "but we paid into it!". Ok, so take a lump sum payment of what ever it is you paid into it and see how far that gets you. For fuck's sake, this is not rocket science.
Neither pensions nor medical expenses can be covered for this mass of aging baby boomers that expect to get hip replacements at age 85.
Anything, and I mean anything, any government does, will never be in the best interests of the people they are supposed to serve. Period. Jimmy
Anything, and I mean anything, any government does, will never be in the best interests of the people they are supposed to serve. Period. Jimmy
I am a proud Canadian as well.
I love socilaism cause I hide my money in my yard in bullion and spend yours.
Damn I'm smart.Ny the time Flap flap flaherty figures it out, I'll be in Costa Rica drinking marg's by the pool.
Unlike most socialists I listened to Margaret Thatchers assertion that socialism is great till there isn't any more private money left from taxation and other insidious socialist tricks.
I suggest fellow Canadians, that you prepare accordingly becuase the calamari bake off is coming our way.
cheers mates
All of us live in two very separate pension worlds. The very rich public sector pensions that are guaranteed by the governments and the very poor private sector system. Canada's Pension System simply transfers the hard earned money of the private citizen to a market gambler. I saved for 40-years and now get 2% return and the government taxes away 47% of that 2% (with real inflation over 5%). The Canadian tax system (like most) is designed to force people into the markets they can think they'll make 8% but will end up with average returns over 40-years of negative 2% (if lucky) per year.
I'll sort of buy into a 10% forced saving program but make the available public and private pensions identical (but the unions would rather sink the country) - in reality, it's up to us to fund our later years but most people won't or can't save so would end up hungry and without shelter. It is true insanity that private sector worker would have to save 2 million dollars to enjoy the pension stream that a public sector minion has. My estimate if the Canadian Pension Plan had to cash out is that their full value would be less than 65% of what they show on the balance sheet. They need to increase the amount of money coming in just to keep up with what they piss out the door. Of course (Leo's bet) governments will ALL spend every cents the next 3-generations may come with to reflate all our ponzi bubbles. I have lost all faith - the system has no sanity. So - I bet on defaults with high inflation. Leo - keep the pension info flowing - it's good for my blood pressure.
Although the idea may have merit I have learned to not trust anything done by Flaherty, who must go down as one of the worst finance ministers in Canada's history.
Leo, You are the pension guy. So I look to you for info. What is this story about? The Swiss do not arrest people unless there is something big going on. Let me know?
http://www.google.com/search?q=ursala%20gut&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-...
Head of Swiss BVK asset management team arrested for misconduct:
SWITZERLAND – The head of asset management at BVK – the manager of the Pensionskasse for civil servants in Zürich – has been arrested for alleged misconduct and corruption, the canton's finance department has confirmed. The BVK in Switzerland is in no way connected with the Bayerische Versorgungskammer (also known as BVK) in Munich.
Few details have been made public, but the finance department said the allegations concerned issues dating several years back.
Ursula Gut-Winterberger, member of the regional government, expressed "regret" and "bewilderment" regarding the arrested employee's alleged conduct, but emphasised the employee remained innocent until proven guilty.
While Swiss newspapers refrained from mentioning the name of the arrested management member, a spokesman for the finance department told IPE the public prosecutor had confirmed it was the "head of asset management at BVK".
The finance department said it would co-operate fully with the public prosecutor to ensure a quick and full investigation.
It also confirmed no BVK employees had been suspended.
Christoph Ryter, head of the Swiss pension fund association ASIP, said the BVK had always been a model when it came to control mechanisms.
"There are disclosure requirements in place on employees' private assets, and the BVK has always implemented more than just the minimal standards," he said.
"That is all you can realistically do to prevent these things from happening."
Ryter said that, should the allegations prove true, it would show that no system is 100% fail-safe – or that stricter controlling mechanisms had begun to take effect.
"But we have to wait for the results of the investigations before drawing any conclusions," he added.
Whether the timeframe of the alleged misconduct dates before the introduction of stricter disclosure requirements in 2006 has not been made public.
Who Carez about what is happening in Canada? Give us some real news.
Occasionally it is nice to hear some news from the democratic parts of the globe. If the governance of such countries is uninteresting to you, faux news is just a click away.
Dear MonetizeMe,
as an expatriate Canadian who has lived on 3 continents and travelled to over 80 countries, I can assure you that what happens matters little to the rest of the world. Canadians like to pretend their opinion matters, that they are a so-called middle power, honest broker that everyone instinctively trusts because we are nice guys. That may have been true many years ago but we have largely squandered that good will by slavishly following US foreign policy. I am not critising US foreign policy per se, rather pointing out the obvious. Despite the pretentions of the latte liberals that hang out with the boyz at Church and Wellesley,Makenzie King was the last Prime Minister, in my view, to follow an independent policy. Trudeau put on a good show, but made certain never to anger the elephant next door.
We do, however, produce world class comedy:
A Canadian bloke is walking down the street with a case of beer under his arm.
His friend Randy stops him and asks, "Hey Dave! Whatcha got that case of beer for?"
"Well, I got it for my wife, you see?" answers Dave.
"Wow," exclaims Randy, "Great trade."
I don't happen to disagree with anything you are saying, but Canada's middle power status is not the point here.
e.g. Switzerland is clearly not a major power in the world, it is neutral and vulnerable to its regional "elephants", yet I see it as a shining example of what is possible in a truly democratic society. As such, I want to know how things are done there, boring as that might be for some.
Canada is not Switzerland, but that doesn't mean what happens there is not news. Western democracy is so endangered at this point that it's ever more important that we hear more about its few remaining bastions.
Regarding your points, however, I think Canada is on the ascendancy, relatively speaking. The country nearly ceased to exist, twice, in the last 30 years, so some timidty is understandable. But with fiscal order restored (relative to others), huge now-economic oil reserves, and a multi-polar order emerging, Canada should be in a position to profit tremendously. Time will tell...
This is rich. They lower interest rates to .25% (negative interest rates) and then complain that people are not saving enough and the government will have to step in to save them. This is just a setup for later means testing as the program runs out of money. Never trust the government with your pension. They will screw the prudent and reward the imprudent every time.
Any CPP reform should contain elements such as
I'd vote for this.
And you think this is good, Leo? You think will make Canada a pensions leader of the world? You give credit to the FM and PM?
Okay, I'll keep it simple. YOU ARE A FUCKTARD. Incapable of even understanding the implications of what you are cutting and pasting.
It's a PONZI scheme, you idiot, and they are running out of new suckers so those suckers still paying, have to now pay more. Flaherty is advocating a "modest" increase. Yeah, like I keep telling my girlfriend she's modestly pregnant.
And just as a rhetorical, when was the last time that neocon PM of yours did anything at all which benefited the Canadian public rather than his masters in Wash. DC?
And you are supposed to be a pensions expert???? God help Canadians.
Can we keep the comments civil? I know some of you are mentally challenged, but do try to engage in a civil discussion. THINK before commenting. If you don't bolster the pension system, pension poverty is right around the corner. Leaving people to "fend for themselves" in markets dominated by hedge funds, investment banks and HFT is akin to murder through Chinese water torture. Social costs of pension poverty outweigh the cost of increasing premiums on CPP. Wake up already and start thinking in terms of what is best for society, not just a few traders!!!
Leo - you set up a false dichotomy like a true troll.
People can retire without "playing the markets" and without a state run Pension Fund. What do you think we did in the first hundred years of American history? Worked hard and saved. Thats what. The notion that people are too stupid to do this now a days is kinda funny. Really shows you to be the "government has all the answers" liberal that you are.
What you are describing is called reality. That's what happens when ponzi schemes come to an end.
As far as your "lets keep the comments civil" goes, it speaks volumes about your double standards. You are consistently the most abusive poster on here when someone disagrees with you but you'd prefer we keep things civil when someone dishes it out to you.
Leo, you live by the sword, you die by the sword.
I'll just add my voice to the outraged. Once again those who spend without regard to the future, on new cars, expensive homes, borrowing money to take vacations, and all the latest electronic gadgets, will be rewarded for their wasteful behaviour. Those who lived within their means and saved all their lives - forgoing the "bleeding edge" lifestyle - will be punished.
The authour of "The Ant and the Grasshopper" must be rolling over in his or her grave.
Huh? How?
By forcing the saving by the spendthrifts (by taking off their paycheck before they see it) we ensure that they do not become a burden to those that live frugally.
It is the US situation where the any and grasshopper truly applies.
Canada does it better, again.
How?
By making ALL OF US pay into it when we will NEVER see any benefits. Who will get the benefits? Those who didn't save. If there is an opt-out clause, I will be gone so fast.
DOW chart warns of a rally :
http://stockmarket618.wordpress.com
http://www.zerohedge.com/forum/latest-market-outlook-1
Leo,
The government is pulling wool over the sheeple in Canada.
CPP is underfunded like all other socialist government's long term liabilities.
The excuse that self employed have not saved enough and therefore, could become a burden on the system is pathetic. The self employed have saved other than RRSP eligible savings and have chosen to SAVE ON THEIR OWN simply because WE KNOW the system is bankrupt.
Now the government which is facing pension liability shortfalls is getting everyone to pay more because the fucking baby boomers do not want to admit that their neverending NIRVANA of 20+ years of pension cannot be sustained from about 40+ years of contributions.
It's the aging population giving themselves a golden retirement plan and sticking it to their kids and grandkids.
PATHETIC.
Why would we pay MORE for failed investment decisions.
Nortel, BreX, the entire Canadian lumber industry...
No this will not do at all. Not at all. You can see the rat running around in the grain silo now in Canada. Something big and nasty is coming if they are fighting to raise the rates.
World class pension...whatever...total slop logic. The Conservatives are getting ready to raid the pensions just like the bunch of them slushed the EI (employment insurance from unemployment Insurance...double speak horseshit)
I'm a Canadian and I like socialism, at least in Canada. There are so many positive elements to Canada that are part in parcel to our social safety net.
Our politicians are idiots too but it's far easier up here to access your politician and get heard. We just had a politician in BC who left the party to run as an independent because he didn't believe in the HST - BC residents them weren't happy with it. So if they were going to force it through he couldn't support it or the government. He just reminded people what a politician should be... sensitive to the thoughts of his constituents.
I'm a Canadian too. The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money to spend.
HST yet another slush fund.
Do our idiots sticks understand our population is tiny. It's getting down to the point of running business underground and racketeering.
CPP funds adminstered by CPPIB, basically a sovereign wealth fund.
http://www.cppib.ca/
Holds a bunch of crap like oil, mining, potash, that noone can remember what we need it for. Oh yeah and some of that RIMM.
Full list of holdings:
http://www.cppib.ca/Results/Financial_Highlights/public_equity.html
I have met the amdinistrators selling a fund management software product which I sold across N. American and found the team competent. Their access to private equity and large scale deals (think infrastructure deals with sweet yields) which are inaccessible to most investors helps boost returns.
According to that early 2008 article, the CPP is "self-sustaining" at 9.9% contributions and no increases were expected "for 75 years".
I'm rather curious as to what investment rate of return this is calculated on...I sincerely HOPE it is in the 2-3% range, because that's what's coming.
But the bigger question is: SURE, it had/has $121b vested...but what happens to any system when the overwhelming preponderance of money is "invested" in increasingly non-goods-productive paper assets, bonds, stocks and debentures, etc....?
Who is going to generate real growth - growth NOT measured in what will certainly be increasingly devalued dollars? For real, meaningfully spendable funds to be transferred to pensioners, GOODS (not dollars!) have to ultimately be produced somewhere...
Where's that production going to come from when an increasing majority of invested funds is further and further divorced from real goods production? They're BETS on productivity. That's all. It's been happening for years and it is due to speed up.
Pensioners relying on government "investments" better get wheelbarrows ready...
Interesting, where the money are invested? Is it "paper" wealth? Financial "assets" of some sort?
Does this mean that the CPP is vastly underfunded and they are increasing the provincial premiums only to cover current and near term obligations?
No, CPP is a partially funded plan:
http://www.thestar.com/business/investing/article/300563
HOW can you support THIS???
This is nothing more than forced "saving", probably losing saving at that, and completely decapitates the idea that people should be responsible for providing for their own retirements.
This is a move precisely 180-degrees from the direction they SHOULD be going...
The REAL markets make the decisions. And in real markets, there are unavoidably losers and winners. Flaherty would, of course, like to reward his constitutents: spenders, taxpayers and profligates - and punish those of us attempting to save, invest, and provide for ourselves.
Leo, give it up. It's dead and it can't get up.
Huh?
Private systems don't work and saving directly for your own retirement is grossly inefficient. If everyone has to save an amount equal to what thye would need if they lived to say 90 years old a whole bunch of people would have to over save. But which ones? Pensions are the best way of pooling against the risk of living a long time, without everyone having to save for that possibility.
+ 100000000000000000
Nobody knows wich age will die.
Nobody knows if will live until 75 or until 105.
And if everyone saves every penny like crazy in the present, thinking in the possibility of living until be 105 years old, and being afraid of having no more savings when being 95 years old, thus passing the last 10 years of life in misery, NOBODY will consume in the present. It's oversaving, and it means RECESSION in the present.
Individual savings for retirement is a system wich don't work.
You know, the way we used to handle this in the US was for families to take care of their own aging parents/grandparents.
But hey, now everyone else's parents get to be my problem (were I a Canadian), so I suppose I can toss my own elders under the socialist bus guilt-free. Socialism - gotta love it!
Brilliant. Every family for itself.
And if you don't have grandchildren, or your grandchildren don't care a shit about you, or your grandchildren are so poor they can't take care of you, then you are screwed.
Brilliant. The american way of throwing out the elders.
Why not throw them in a tar pit, like in the "Dinosaurs" TV series?
"Pensions are the best way of pooling against the risk of living a long time, without everyone having to save for that possibility."
I would suggest that pensions actually perform far worse at that function than even a fixed annuity plan through a life insurance company.
So, you want to target those who don't save enough? Why? They have obviously made the choice to consume now versus later, so why feel the need to change their choices? And wanting to avoid placing too high a burden on workers with low incomes is the socialist way of saying that they want to redistribute wealth by "progressive" means.
Ask Old Europe how generous "social safety nets" and high, "progressive" taxes are affecting their budgets. Apparently, they have been attending the same colloquims and seminars that Barry and his assclowns have been frequenting over the past few years. Unfreakin believable.
Just a question.
What do you mean by those who dont save enough? emphasis on enough.
I dont understand the link between this and Europe? Arent they saving there?
What is the state of their savings level?
Ask Old Europe how generous "social safety nets" and high, "progressive" taxes are affecting their budgets.
Well... Did you check public debt to GDP of the Scandinavian nations?
Sweden: 43.2%
Finland: 41.4%
Denmark: 38.5%
Meanwhile...
USA: 92.56%
Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt
Go scandinavs, go!
"So, you want to target those who don't save enough? Why? They have obviously made the choice to consume now versus later, so why feel the need to change their choices?"
You're missing the point. The ponzi scheme is teetering, so we need people to put in more.
I'm a middle class person who'd opt out now and avoid paying into the fund for 30 years, knowing i'D FORFEIT hundreds of dollars a month of an income stream (CPP) in the future.
But the payoff for our investment is NOT the point, or surrendering your rights to collect in the future. Its ALL about funding the needs now, and INCREASING contributions. Sounds like a ponzi to me. Too many people opt out; Ponzi exposed.
Why not get the banks to kick in some cash to the CPP? It's not just a hate-on for the banks either. Seems to me The Fed gov (aka the taxpayers) bought BILLIONS of mortgages from the Big Six during the crisis, so they must be flush with cash and liquidity. We bailed them out, they owe us one.