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"The Case Against Government Debt - PERIOD"

Tyler Durden's picture




 

The most exciting episode of the neverending (and always distracting from far more important matters) political soap opera is without doubt the ongoing debate over the debt ceiling (which may legally be breached as soon as the week of May 1). For what it's worth, this is a complete sideshow as i) the ceiling will be raised, ii) both parties will blame each other for this outcome while shaking hands behind the scenes in expectation of more "gifts" from Wall Street and iii) the world will realize just how broke America is now that its debt ceiling, which we believe will be raised by just over $2 trillion to last the country until after the next presidential election, will for the first time ever be greater than its GDP, an event that has never before occurred. And so the distraction will shift to another even more meaningless debate. In the meantime, few ask themselves the key question: why is there government debt? In that regard, many have made the point against government debt, but few have done so as successfully and as succinctly as Bill Buckler does in his latest issue of the Privateer. In the below segment, Buckler does the definitive and most commonsensical reduction of the "government debt" issue and why what America is doing is nothing short of allowing itself to be hijacked on the road to a dictatorship.

The Case Against Government Debt - PERIOD:

A debt is an unfinished TRANSACTION. It is an agreement voluntarily entered into by BOTH lender and borrower to exchange present goods for future goods. Any economic transaction presupposes the existence of the goods being exchanged. If no goods exist, no transaction can take place.

In the marketplace, a loan is successful for the lender if and when the terms of the loan are met in full by the borrower. It is successful for the borrower if and when he can fulfill the terms and stand with capital  left over afterwards. If the terms of the loan are not fulfilled, both lender and borrower lose. The lender loses part or perhaps all of what was lent. The borrower may end up in jail. At the very least, he will findit more difficult or impossible to borrow in future.

In the “private” world of the marketplace, the lender has no power to create what is lent out of thin air and the borrower has no power to create the means of “payment” using the same method. The goods or money must first be created or earned and then SAVED. The means of paying back the loan must be acquired the same way. In all cases of MARKET lending, force cannot enter the picture. There is no way to force anyone to accept a “legal tender” which settles “all debts public and private”.

A government produces NOTHING. Since it produces nothing, it has no ECONOMIC means of servicing or repaying any debt obligations it may take on. Its means are strictly “political”. The only way a government can service and repay ANY level of debt it takes on is to extract the means from those who do produce wealth. Those who rely on the “full faith and credit” of government are relying on the exercise of naked political POWER. They are relying on the government to extract the means of payment from its citizens - or - to manipulate the terms of the loan (usually by manipulating interest rates) - or - to depreciate the purchasing power of the “legal tender” to make “payment” possible. In reality, government “creditors” are relying upon all three methods. The key to any government’s power is its ability to consume more than it extracts in taxes and charges. Until that power is curbed, no solution to the global financial crisis is possible. Until it is abolished, no return to genuine political freedom is possible.

We hope that more Americans realize that this is the key, and only, issue. Not whether Geithner can issue another $35 billion in 3 Year notes all of which will ultimately end up going to pad the uber rich's pocket even more. Not even whether America has a AAA or DD rating. It is whether we are willing to give up, day by day, the key freedom that once upon a time made America the great countries that future generations will only read about in history books.

 

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Fri, 04/22/2011 - 13:45 | 1196656 vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

this our government produces WASTE. 

a government must produce efficient REGULATIONS (for big biz and Fed).

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:07 | 1196762 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

only in the movies...

 

 

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 23:12 | 1198305 illyia
Sat, 04/23/2011 - 14:13 | 1199405 Re-Discovery
Re-Discovery's picture

+ 14.7 trillion

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 22:26 | 1198206 Tail Dogging The Wag
Tail Dogging The Wag's picture

"Investors need to diversify, they need to own some real estate, they need to own some farmland, they need to own some equities, some cash, and some precious metals..."   Marc Faber —Investment analyst

Got real estate and farmland outside your home country yet?

http://www.thorssoncapital.weebly.com

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 13:45 | 1196662 D1eeeeeNAHHHHH
D1eeeeeNAHHHHH's picture

Great summary of what needs to happen Tyler.  Nice work once again!

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:04 | 1196748 Dr_Dazed
Dr_Dazed's picture

Come on guys - the Government produces nothing?  How about the legitimate national security role?  How about the enforcement of the rule of law (well, we have some current problems there)?  This argument is silly beyond belief.  Third grade philosophy.

 

Junk away.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:30 | 1196872 MrPalladium
MrPalladium's picture

Dazed you are!!

Legitimate national defense and enforcing the law are social costs. They do not produce wealth, although they are necessary to foster the production of wealth in transactions between strangers in nations encompassing more than one tribe or ethnic group.

Government produces nothing. A legitimate government seeks ways to minimize the costs of its legitmate functions.

Democratic governments always and everwhere end up maximizing costs by undertaking illegitimate functions, principally buying votes under the guise of providing services or relieving distress and poverty, or as Joseph Tainter would say in "The Collapse of Complex Societies," legitimization expenditures.

Collapse to a lower order of complexity and cost always involves the dismantling of democracy and the substitution of a much less expensive form of government legitimized by crisis and collapse.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 19:21 | 1197835 Dr_Dazed
Dr_Dazed's picture

I beg to differ still.  Few if any "things" are purely physical "goods" or "services".  While the balance between these components, along with tangibility and intangibility components, better define the "products" subject to "exchange" as put forward in the initial post.  You state that, for example, defense is a "social cost" I fail to see how you can impute a cost when nothing is gained in the exchange i.e. security, a "product" probably worth paying for.  Just because you choose to define security as a "cost" does not make the production of the good or service illegitimate.

I haven't read Mr. Tainter and doubt I will alas.  Most of the political / sociological theorists don't hold my interest.  Specifically I have read most of the "social economists" and a lot of complexity theorists (Durham, Lumsden and Willson, Baum and Singh, Casti and Karlqvist and so on) and I find the theorists like Jared Diamond to be relatively shallow and not worth the trouble.

 

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 20:03 | 1197933 Tidewater
Tidewater's picture

Not sure what "third grade philosophy" is, but here's some elementary-school civics: Neither the military nor the police is the government in America.

Your broader point seems to be that government has a role. Of course it does.

But you don't need "complexity theorists" to get at the basic point here: Government's role in this country is not to consume the society, including through the issuance of a crippling debt burden. (Or the issuance of regulations that encroach upon basic, and protected, civil activity, for example.)

The article's interesting take was to frame it in the context of political forces unchecked by market forces. A debt-financed take-under.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 22:54 | 1198277 FrankDrakman
FrankDrakman's picture

You are both correct, in varying degrees. Yes, the police/army is NOT "the government"; they are however "arms" of the government. (Pun intended) So are the courts, the legislatures, etc. These functions of government create a framework where people and business can (theoretically) thrive. If this is not a "real product", then what exactly do psychiatrists, psychologists, and therapists produce?

The best example I can think of is the Philippines. I've visited there many times. The country is exceptionally fertile, the people are decent and hardworking, and most speak passable English. You'd think (especially with all their ties to the US) that they would have booming economy.

But they don't, and the single most important reason is there is no constant rule of law in the country. Corruption is rife from the smallest barrio to the Senate, and as soon as someone gets a little something, there's no end of "government" crooks (along with assorted real ones) trying to get their mitts on it.

In English North America, I'm pretty sure I can start a business without having to pay off six government officials, the police chief, and the local army commander, failing which my children might be kidnapped or my business burned down - I saw both happen in the Phils. (I haven't tried to start a business in New Orleans, though..)

However, I have some sympathy for the article's thrust, which is the reckless spending and borrowing by the federal government is going to end the US as we know it, one way or another.

 

Sat, 04/23/2011 - 00:26 | 1198414 trav7777
trav7777's picture

this is the rule in most places, and why the western white "rule of law" is so exceptional.

Corruption, however, is infecting everywhere.  I was talking to a belgian businessman in serbia whose problem to get some business running was to "find the guy whose hands I need to put the $400,000 into"

Corruption like this leads to and persists dark ages

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 16:56 | 1197506 riphowardkatz
riphowardkatz's picture

Is national defense consumption or production? Since my public education included no philosophy I need your help.

Sat, 04/23/2011 - 19:31 | 1198775 rwe2late
rwe2late's picture

Dr_Dazed

You are 100% correct.

The oft-repeated contention that  "government produces NOTHING" is patently false.

It is ridiculous to claim that alleged private workers doing the same tasks as government workers are "producing", but government workers would not be.

Thus, public teachers, etc. are not "producing", but private workers doing the same jobs would be..

Thus, the Army Corps of Engineers building a dam, or city workers repairing a street etc, are supposedly not producing, but private workers would be.

Thus Goldman Sachs workers "produce" because they are "private", but government lawyers, accountants, and regulators supposedly by definition do not simply because they are "public".

All too many are misled by a false, but popularly portrayed, rigid economic dichotomy of "public' and "private". The marketplace, the rules of commerce, liability, property, ownership, etc. are defined by societal agreement or acceptance, i.e. "government".  

Those societal rules for the economy may be established and enforced by a brigand and mafia-run government, or presumably by a government more benevolent and democratic in nature.

Those who merely see the problem as "government" creating the mafia, but not the mafioso creating "government", fail to comprehend the dialectical relationship between the two.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 13:47 | 1196668 redpill
redpill's picture

After you're done reading Privateer, I recommend picking up a copy of Mutineer :) 

http://www.mutineermagazine.com/blog/

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 13:52 | 1196683 cossack55
cossack55's picture

WTF? No articles about MD 20/20.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 13:52 | 1196673 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

Want to know why?  Read The Creature From Jekyll Island.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 13:55 | 1196698 forexskin
forexskin's picture

+1913

i bought a case and passed them out 3 years ago. only one who didn't get it is my lawyer who majored in economics before law school - called it tinfoil hat stuff. (kinda nice as a litmus test)

buy loads, and hand them out.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:15 | 1196785 TomGa
TomGa's picture

Video online (at least until April 29th when GoogleVideos shuts down):

The Birth of the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank - How usury destroyed America

http://tinyurl.com/jekyllmonster

"Based on Mr. Griffin's book of the same title [The Creature from Jekyll Island], this address will shatter your old ideas about money and change the way you view the world. 1998 lecture."

Sat, 04/23/2011 - 01:18 | 1198483 tiger7905
tiger7905's picture

Interesting clip, thanks.

Latest from Martin Armstrong, covers QE2 and how gold will move up in the next wave.

http://goldandsilverlinings.com/?p=769

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 13:48 | 1196675 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Who cares about the debt ceiling? The dollar is about to go supernova!

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2011/04/22/0200000000AEN20110422001...

Central bank adviser says yuan appreciation necessary

 

Yuan revaluation bitchez!

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 13:54 | 1196705 Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

"Gradual". The CNY fixing is at a record as is. A 10% move will wreak havoc on China's export economy, where margins already are razor thin.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:06 | 1196742 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

My guess as well.  A 10% jump in price of Chinese bearings would kill that business.  

"Price, Nothing Else".

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:21 | 1196819 1fortheroad
1fortheroad's picture

From another poster.

Rumor: China To Revalue Yuan 10% This Weekend?

 

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=184595#discuss

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 16:46 | 1197459 bushboy
bushboy's picture

This would be very bearish for the AUD I imagine.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:11 | 1196773 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

And because that's what Ben wanted, we are pretty sure it won't cause extra inflation...

so debt ceiling increase...

rate increase?...

Yuan rise...

...

SHAKEN NOT STIRRED PLEASE!!

 

Sat, 04/23/2011 - 08:39 | 1198680 css1971
css1971's picture

I's been moving about ~4%pa, giving a 17 year half period. Maybe they ment to allow it to float by 10%, giving a 7 year period. It accelerated mid March.

http://quotes.ino.com/chart/index.html?s=FOREX_USDCNY&t=&a=&w=&v=d6

EDIT:

Just a thought. Have we found QE3?

This may have been what QE2 was about. Break the peg. Course the stagflation would be horrible for a while. Even higher commodity prices, the chinese getting rid of their treasuries as they devalue and buying stuff with their dollars. Which means higher coupons.

Chinese products become more expensive and jobs start being created... Back in America? Really? Not Vietnam or elsewhere?

 

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:06 | 1196761 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

If that is real then silver/gold, indeed all commodities should rise against the dollar. No?

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:13 | 1196781 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

First against the dollar because the dollar will break

Than Chinese investors will flee into commodities because the Yuan will go back down because their reserves would go down.

 

FICIOUS CIRCLE!

 

Sat, 04/23/2011 - 05:54 | 1198618 css1971
css1971's picture

They won't have to flee. A stronger Renminbi will allow the Chinese to bid commodities (everything) substantially higher in dollar terms.

 

$150 oil here we come.

See all that inflation America hasn't had over the last decade or two? It's on it's way.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 13:48 | 1196677 cossack55
cossack55's picture

I like it. Short, succinct, accurate and no charts or graphs. 

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 13:51 | 1196678 Cyan Lite
Cyan Lite's picture

Actually, the gov't does a pretty nice job of creating wealth.  The Federal Reserve has created trillions in wealth for certain bankers.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 13:52 | 1196691 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

The FED is a private entity.  Therefore the argument holds.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 13:56 | 1196711 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

And even it doesn't create wealth, it creates dollars that are used to transfer/consume wealth.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:07 | 1196750 Vagabond
Vagabond's picture

+yahtzee

Sat, 04/23/2011 - 05:47 | 1198614 css1971
css1971's picture

the gov't does a pretty nice job of creating wealth

ITYM "moving wealth"

Government is a service. It provides some useful services in a way that others can't or won't. But I don't see why it would need to run up a national debt. A national debt, certainly a permanent one is just cowardice and expediency on the part of the politicians.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 13:49 | 1196680 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

The borrower may end up in jail

In the absence of fruad, I dont think this is true.  Debter prisions, once all the rage, have gone away.  I believe a contract is civil law and not criminal.  That being said, there are lots of people sitting in jail for failing to pay their government debt (taxes).  Though I guess taxes are not a contract per se since you do not enter willfully.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 13:51 | 1196689 cossack55
cossack55's picture

"I like the way you think"

Sam Kinison

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 19:57 | 1197920 The 22nd Prime
The 22nd Prime's picture

Sam who?

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 13:58 | 1196719 SilverFiend
SilverFiend's picture

I'm afraid debtor's prison is alive and well in the U.S.

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870439650457620455381163661...

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:02 | 1196733 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

Excellent article.  It would seem the golden rule is the only law still alive and well.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 13:59 | 1196721 Chuck Bone
Chuck Bone's picture

Try student loans. Can't discharge them through bankruptcy, so the state mandates you pay. If you can't do so without maintaining a minimum standard of living, they still will make you pay some sort of payment a month? If you decide not to pay even the minimum or what a court mandates, you can be subject to all sorts of penalties. Tax refunds can be withheld, you can lose social security payments, you can be turned over to a collection agency and sued, your wages garnished.  The government may not license you if you are a doctor or lawyer, and in that regard they will imprison you for disobeying.

Debtors prison is alive and well, and is behind an enormous debt bubble that has yet to pop.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 15:03 | 1197022 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

What about taking a small job... then take a home loan... then buy a small house with it... then use the surplus to pay your student loan and then default?

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 15:10 | 1197086 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

You need to look at the laws regarding forebearance...  hell, doctors get a fucking discharge of student loans...  you need to read the fine print, not the headlines.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 15:04 | 1197043 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Even if you fail to pay the proper amount of income taxes, you'll still likely stay out of prison...  the issue is largely for people who refuse to file...  the willful avoiders...  and generally, this is reserved for the bigger $ evaders.  [and by bigger I mean the middle of the road as far as evaders go, but in the 5 figures at least range...  and typically only for those folks who can't foot the bill].

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 13:53 | 1196688 nah
nah's picture

ARE YOU KIDDING ME

.

we cant tax the rich people enough to pay off americas debt... they created to many poor worthless assholes to blame it on that vote for politicians who constantly subsidize rich peoples 'opinions'

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 13:56 | 1196694 Segestan
Segestan's picture

Misses the whole point of government. The ideas of Government took literally centuries to evolve, government, that is at least government 'by the people for the people' is to safe guard the rights of the individual and one of those rights is to be able to exchange goods and services for pay be that gold or fiat. It wasn't so many centuries ago only a few had those rights and everyone else was a serf. Sure we have  huge waste but we have huge corruption of government.Take away the corruption and political, religious hacks and everything with government will work as intended.

 If persons like the author ever succeed in such naive ideas , we will return to the age of brute power/force/plunder over human rights.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:02 | 1196715 thedrickster
thedrickster's picture

My thoughts on democracy, a collective force of brute power & plunder, the God That Failed:

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/antal-feketes-open-letter-ron-paul-impe...

Furthermore, when in recent history has this government done anything even resembling the safeguard of natural rights?

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:01 | 1196722 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

The only form of government that has the capacity, let alone the ability to protect the rights of the individual, is self-government. Which is why it was the basis of the experiment known as the US republic.

Anything else is just a madman with a gun.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:04 | 1196745 Segestan
Segestan's picture

Maybe... but the point is Government is a means for the citizens to gain equality under law.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:13 | 1196791 Tric
Tric's picture

The point of government is to extort tax revenue from the people.  It's unfortunate so many people think it is anything but an extortion racket

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:19 | 1196810 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Maybe I don't care about everyone being held down to the standards of the lowest common denominator?

Besides, what is "the law?" It is a decree based on the opinion of a small number of people, many of which are already dead. Their desires and demands have absolutely ZERO moral or ethical authority over anyone and exist only due to their use of coercion and violence to ensure the "validity" of their rule.

In other words, it's just another form of tyranny.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:09 | 1196754 thedrickster
thedrickster's picture

" the ability to protect the rights of the individual, is self-government."

This in no way reflects reality in 2011.

"self-government" as represenative democracy is simply the Republic in decay. The more "democratic" the republic became, the greater the encroach on individual rights.

This republic has devolved into a wretched democracy in which the rights of the individual are always subordinated to the whims of a majority, dictated by tiny interest groups.

Even a monarchy would be infinitely preferable at this point, the sheeple would at least know whom to blame instead of engaging in acts of self-immolation known as elections.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:19 | 1196808 Tric
Tric's picture

The last sentence is brilliant. 

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:24 | 1196829 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

The reality is that no one represents me but myself, because I choose not to abdicate my self-responsibility. The calendar date is immaterial.

Government in all other forms is synonymous with violence over others. Enslavement, if you will.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:34 | 1196874 thedrickster
thedrickster's picture

I understand your point, my reply was more directed at Segestan without thoroughly reading your other posts on this thread.

Sat, 04/23/2011 - 19:17 | 1199943 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

+1

 --Thomas Hobbes

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 13:53 | 1196697 lamont cranston
lamont cranston's picture

The govt does produce something, whether it  be federal, state or local.

This product is a bunch of lazy, whiny, spolied brat employees, with Wisconsin as my witness.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:05 | 1196747 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

I suppose you're referring to the employees of the Koch brigade, like yourself.

"Liquidate knowledge!" they hoot.  "Liquidate sanitation!" they cry.

"Just don't liquidate my drug supply."

Sat, 04/23/2011 - 10:54 | 1198924 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Ah, the Koch brothers. The all-purpose, one-size-fits-all bogeyman of the HuffPuff socialist left!

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:22 | 1196828 hognutz
hognutz's picture

You got that right!

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 15:05 | 1197033 Piranhanoia
Piranhanoia's picture

Back to the shadow (banking).

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 13:53 | 1196701 Tracerfan
Tracerfan's picture

The debt is just getting started. 

LOTS more to come.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:05 | 1196755 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

YES^10^10.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 13:56 | 1196713 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

Where did this statement come from about a debt: "It is an agreement voluntarily entered into by BOTH lender and borrower to exchange present goods for future goods." 

At least one dictionary defines a debt as: "That which is due from one person to another, whether money, goods, or services; that which one person is bound to pay to another, or to perform for his benefit; thing owed; obligation; liability."

If I accidentally set my neighbors barn on fire I owe him a debt for which neither of us had an agreement. 

However, I don't remember signing up for taxes or to repay the national debt.  Certainly Party A can sign up for a debt that Party B owes. 

 

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:08 | 1196757 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Technically, you don't owe the farmer anything. Sure you are liable for damages, and any honest person would agree that you should make the farmer whole, but that doesn't create a debt until you voluntarily agree to pay him renumerance.

If the debt is forced upon you by the decree of an external authority against your wishes, then it is extortion.

This may seem to be nit-picking, but it is the basis of a voluntary society, where if you do not make the farmer whole, you will rightly be shunned by the community.

Sat, 04/23/2011 - 07:29 | 1198685 Husk-Erzulie
Husk-Erzulie's picture

Thank You +

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:23 | 1196833 hognutz
hognutz's picture

The same with FICA. I never voluntarily agreed to pay them so the could create the ultimate ponzi....

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:04 | 1196724 kato
kato's picture

an overstatement of the case: if there were no interstate roads, no airports around Palo Alto, then there would be no Silicon Valley, no 'wealth creation' - and that is a somewhat bullshit term often slung around by demagogues. there is a role for government and and for governnment debt.

the problem of excess, somewhat identified by the writer, is more directly who is and has been running the politicians. it may be one person one vote, but when it comes to influence, certain people have enourmous access and influence, bought and paid for. just consider fannie and freddie and all of the chicanery by individuals and politicians associated with them.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:15 | 1196782 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Roads and airports are created by individuals, not abstractions known as governments. To believe they would not exist without the benefit of coercion and theft is to misunderstand what it takes for people to meet human needs.

For a short read on the subject, I'd recommend the book "The Market for Liberty." If you wish to get a more in-depth view, there's Rothbard's "For a New Liberty," as well as countless others over on mises.org.

Oh, and that role for government and government debt? It's all about wealth transfer and control over the lives of others.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:17 | 1196809 kato
kato's picture

'abstractions known as governments'

oh boy. they really come out of the woodwork any time there is a democrat in the white house.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:21 | 1196817 thedrickster
thedrickster's picture

Stay within your safe little paradigm if that's what it takes.

I was talking about such silly abstractions during the last Emperor's reign.

Sat, 04/23/2011 - 07:35 | 1198690 Husk-Erzulie
Husk-Erzulie's picture

oh boy. they really come out of the woodwork any time there is a democrat in the white house.

WTF? *shaking head in appalled fascination*

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:36 | 1196892 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Do you not understand that collectives exist only in the mind? As for who's in the WH, I could care less, as it is merely a ploy to create the polarized, fake left/right divide-and-conquer division.

Institutions such as governments are filled with individuals acting on their own best interests, which cannot be held accountable as a collective, as either the trouble emanates from an individual (bad egg), or the institution itself has become incoherent over time, due to the actions of a multitude of other individuals in the past. In this case it must be "reformed" to meet someone's vision of a mission.

In other words, like a person, a collective has no method where "it" can be held accountable, as it does not have a conscious, and is incapable of action. As I said above, it is instead, merely an abstraction.

Sat, 04/23/2011 - 01:30 | 1198494 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

It was a Govt. bureaucracy that sent millions to their deaths in gas chambers...

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:00 | 1196725 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

In the real world, the state redistributes capital and coordinates production for the benefit of those who control it - the banker-gangsters - though their instrument of choice, the unaccountable, undemocratic Fed.  

The obligation of Uncle Sam to repay 'debt' owed to utterly broke, drug-addled banker-gangsters is hardly a serious one.  Yet here, the dope fiends are sacrosanct.

LAY OFF THE DOPE FIENDS!

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:01 | 1196728 linrom
linrom's picture

The only way a government can service and repay ANY level of debt it takes on is to extract the means from those who do produce wealth.

 

And those that produce wealth extract it from somebody else! Your statement above is factually incorrect. Government can hire someone to perform a task just as easily as non-government entity and extract wealth from the worker too.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:02 | 1196736 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

Lot of 'production' coming from derivatives peddlers, eh linrom?

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:28 | 1196863 linrom
linrom's picture

I am not sure how you assume that I believe in that? But here is what I believe in:

You can't create wealth, but you can improve universal standard of living which is then mistaken for wealth creation.

The concept of wealth creation is an illusion invented by neo-classical economists who never consider debt.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 15:43 | 1197242 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

Misread you - my apologies.  I agree with you.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 15:58 | 1197309 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

Wrong. Wealth is created when humans rearrange energy and matter in the world to be more valuable to them.

Thu, 04/28/2011 - 05:40 | 1215062 schizo321437
schizo321437's picture

Mmmm, I`m getting....quantum immortality.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:02 | 1196734 plocequ1
plocequ1's picture

There is not much one can do except play your violin and wait for the flood waters to enter the E Deck. The other side cant be that bad. Until then, God bless.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:07 | 1196765 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

us all.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 22:28 | 1198214 lincolnsteffens
lincolnsteffens's picture

everyone!

 

We are going to need a god's blessing (read miracle) to dodge what is headed our way. Does anyone know the right one to make an offering to?

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:07 | 1196764 Tric
Tric's picture

The national debt is a claim on your productivity.  It is slavery.  The more debt we take on, the more you owe someone else. 

How much money do you owe the federal government?

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 15:42 | 1197245 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

How much does Uncle Sam 'owe' Jamie Dimon? 

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:17 | 1196793 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

ergo, the debt is a fraud.  Call it like it is already.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:18 | 1196804 earnulf
earnulf's picture

There is a role for government, but not the government we currently have.   This government has grown like an ill-tended lawn and not only overrun the flower bed, but has destroyed the sidewalk and broken the driveway.   It harbors all sorts of wildlife and things immicable to human habitation.  Before we can reclaim the yard, we must bring order to the chaos through severe pruning and a reining in of just what the lawn should cover, and what it should not.    The lawn cannot be everything and was never intended to be everything, it just grew up that way.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 15:44 | 1197253 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

The hedonism of Capital, not government, causes nuclear meltdowns and oil blowouts.

Looking for the looters?  You'll find them among the ranks of banker-gangsters if you care to look.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 16:00 | 1197315 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

There's bad people everywhere. Only government can let them flourish.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 17:15 | 1197560 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

Sure helps owning the government.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 22:30 | 1198220 lincolnsteffens
lincolnsteffens's picture

Any one have some broad leaf weed and  grub killer?

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:16 | 1196807 Kickaha
Kickaha's picture

So, let's assume a perfect marketplace where honest men come together in the total absence of coercion and enter into contracts.

By definition then, there is no way to improve on something that is perfect, and any interference by any entity will only have the effect, if anything at all, of destroying this perfection.

OK, I get it.

Now, can we discuss the real world without being intellectually crippled by incredibly stupid and childish assumptions?

In the absence of government, contracts are unenforceable except by violent, private armies, or maybe by exchanging first borns as collateral.  Oh, I forget...in a perfect marketplace, breaches of contract are quickly admitted, and damages are immediately paid upon polite request.

Government is like a hammer.  Those in charge can use its power to build, or they can use its power to smash the nut sacks of their enemies. 

In recent years, it seems that the latter is becoming the norm, and the hammer has morphed into a sledgehammer.

You don't have to start with another assumption-rotted economic theory to arrive at the proper conclusion as to what needs to be done.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:46 | 1196942 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Contracts were enforced long before governments existed, as it is the conerstone of modern commerce. Merchant Law and Maritime Law for example, were created by the merchants and shippers to protect their interests. Only later did government rulers adopt and eventually usurp these courts. How was this law enforced before government intervention? Word-of-mouth. There is only so many times you can cheat those you do business with before you can't find anyone who will.

Why did they do this voluntarily? Because it benefited them all, another cornerstone of modern commerce.

While it may be hard to see in today's world, voluntary cooperation is still how most of us (sans "civil servants") live our lives in relation to others.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 15:39 | 1197233 Kickaha
Kickaha's picture

I appreciate your intelligent and civil response.

I don't think it is so hard to see that the majority of people are willing to abide by voluntary contracts.  I can see it every day in the self-serve checkouts flourishing in many retail stores (although apparently about 85% of shoplifting has always been done by employees).  On a larger scale, the overwhelming percentage of private contracts are performed to the satisfaction of all parties without the need for resort to the Court system.   Many of the disputes that do arise are settled within established systems of private mediation or arbitration.  Only a small fraction result in the filing of lawsuits.

You describe a system based upon reputation as an alternative to litigation.  I suspect that would work effectively only in a much smaller commercial universe where a much better acquainted and limited numbers of merchants engaged in commerce.  And you would still have disputes over facts regarding the causes of a breach of contract that would lead to litigation even among perfectly honorable men.

You would also have to account for crime (something that doesn't exist in the perfect world of "no coercion").  Would private navies and standing private armies be necessary to deter and punish brigands and pirates?  How long before these private armies start fighting with each other over commercial turf?  

I would speculate, without having knowledge regarding the history of Merchant or Maritime Courts, that the government "usurped" their function because of the perils of private enforcement of any judgments they may have rendered, especially if private armed forces were available to resist collection.

You would say that, as it once was, it can be again.  To that I reply that what we had then is the direct cause of what we have now.

Sat, 04/23/2011 - 11:03 | 1198936 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

You need to understand that the defining characteristic of Government is its self-assigned Monopoly of Force.

The problem with having a Monopoly of Force is that you can't stop using it. You don't need to know anything about the history of Merchant or Maritime Courts to know that the reason that Government usurped their functions is because it could not help itself. When you arrogate a monopoly of force to yourself, that means-- by definition-- that you can tolerate no competitors.

It is really quite simple to understand once you grasp that concept. Government is like Frankenstein-- once the monster is unleashed, it is impossible to control because the need for total domination is built into its DNA.

Sat, 04/23/2011 - 19:44 | 1199993 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

You theory-laden libertarian guys all make the same mistake when you're discussing that big bad gummit.  The theory sounds appealing, but you don't know the fuckin' history.

Only later did government rulers adopt and eventually usurp these courts.

This isn't how it happened.  What happened is that the previous merchants had CONFLICTS with each other that they were unable to resolve under existing laws and relations, so they ASKED government to resolve/mediate/settle.

Of course government did a shit job at it.  But it didn't step in "unbidden" to a happy market that was functioning so beautifully without government involvement.  The guys who were running the markets had already failed.

Sun, 04/24/2011 - 13:30 | 1201179 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

the problem with government is selective enforcement.

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.
~Thomas Jefferson

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:21 | 1196818 Tric
Tric's picture

Given this context, why aren't people taking serious the idea of secession?  

 

Fuck the national debt and fuck the obligations imposed on me like Social Security.  Why should I be liable to pay back $14Tn that I wanted nothing to do with? 

The U.S. needs to break apart for humanities' sake. 

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:27 | 1196841 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

It's coming.  States with natural resources, particularly energy, will leave first.  Funny thing is, many of those same states are where the majority of our volunteer army comes from.  How convenient.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 15:08 | 1197067 samsara
samsara's picture

Let's go like Iceland !

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 22:45 | 1198256 lincolnsteffens
lincolnsteffens's picture

Sorry but your numbers seem to be excessively low. Try 60-80 Trillion and climbing.

I suppose it won't matter much when the dollar trades on a par with Zimbabwe's currency. $100,000,000,000 notes aren't very bulky to carry to pay off a debt that small. Why, I could pay off the US debt by myself. To stop all this arguing I'm willing to be charatable and take care of it.

There, problem solved. Now move along.  All is well. There's a good little sheeple.

 

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:24 | 1196837 blindman
blindman's picture

in the current money system the government debt is

the currency.  that is what makes it necessary in this system,

is also what makes it doomed.  fatal flaws exist in many systems,

and schemes, like ponzi systems.

the case against government debt is then the case against

federal reserve notes and treasury bonds, bills and notes.

end the fed.

 

 

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:25 | 1196844 hognutz
hognutz's picture

Good Luck goobermint fiends. Ya' can't get blood from a turnip.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 15:48 | 1197271 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

Nope: you get it from the bloodsuckers.

Go after the banker-gangsters.  If you don't have the decency to arrest them, for Christ's Sake (on this holy day) at least make them pay for their casinos and opium dens.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:27 | 1196858 Diogenes
Diogenes's picture

Filled with errors of fact and logic. For a start it is perfectly easy and common to create what is lent out of thin air. For example an option seller writes a naked option and sells it. The seller now has take cash from the buyer and created a debt. No one knows whether the debt will be large, small, or nil no one knows. The value of the debt could be any amount.

 

If the value of the option rises the buyer can use it as margin in his account and even draw cash against it.

 

There are lots of examples to refute what this guy is saying. I enjoyed the tortured logic but don't see anything of value in it.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 15:30 | 1197183 pods
pods's picture

Of course, for your example to hold the options seller would have to have sufficient force to ensure that everyone used his debt as a currency.

Big difference in issuing debt and issuing debt that serves as mandated legal tender.

pods

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:38 | 1196903 dootyfree
dootyfree's picture

Please explain how America is broke?

Household Net Worth = 57 trillion

Public Debt = 12 trillion

Which number is bigger?

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 15:11 | 1197062 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

Been here a whole 11 weeks, eh?

Assuming you're not a plant:  Actual debt is a  lot bigger, on the order of 76T  http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=278017

And will soon be a lot, lot bigger than that http://investmentwatchblog.com/total-us-unfunded-liabilities-are-estimat...

And assuming you ARE a plant, you better try a lot, lot, lot harder.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 15:21 | 1197148 Diogenes
Diogenes's picture

That's the same as saying how can I be broke when Warren Buffet has money? Unless you believe that the government owns everything and everyone in America.

Hey maybe that's why Obama is not worried.

Sat, 04/23/2011 - 11:07 | 1198953 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

There are indeed a small group of people in this world who believe that they own everyone and everything in America-- and by acting that way, they are making it so. They happen to own the US Gov't which certainly helps them accomplish this.

Step one in defeating these people is recognizing them for who and what they are. In fact, once that is done, the rest is quite simple.

 

Sat, 04/23/2011 - 05:32 | 1198606 css1971
css1971's picture

2 problems.

 

1: Public debt at 14 trillion is only a small part of the total debt. There is also household, corporate debt as well. It adds up to something like 50 trillion dollars (as of 2009).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_position_of_the_United_States

 

2: Net worth is a bullshit calculation, particularly when it comes to paying debts.

Example:

Lets say there is $100 in the economy. Your house under is worth $25 of that $100. Yes?

Someone comes along and destroys $50. They burn the money. So there is only $50 left in the economy.

What just happened? Deflation happened. The market value of your house when you come to sell it is not going to be $25 any more. Half the money is gone. It is much more likely that your house is going to be worth $12.50. How are you going to pay the $25 (ok, $20, you were a good little citizen) debt on it now?

 

Net worth is based on the current level of money in the economy.

 

Here's the truth.

There is 50 trillion dollars worth of debt (2009), I saw a 57 trillion figure more recently and only 9 - 14 trillion dollars worth of credit (depending on the M2 or M3 figures) to pay that debt. We are not even attempting to pay off the total debts any more, we are just getting by paying the interest on the debts.

When you pay a debt with credit. The debt is wiped out. Goes to zero, but so does the credit. The credit vanishes as well. But as I said, there is only ~14 trillion of credit, and there is ~57 trillion in debt. Which leaves 43 Trillion dollars pretty much unpayable.

There are only 2 options. Inflate or default. The only way everything continues to work is through "growth". It is the religion of the banks and politicians. Growth is nothing more than taking out new bigger debts to pay the interest on the old debts. "Growth" is nothing more than inflation.

America is broke. "Living on tic". But then so are all of the other countries which use a fractional reserve banking system, and America has the big guns. The people who benefit most from this situation are the people who deal in debt.

Sat, 04/23/2011 - 12:24 | 1199156 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture
>by dootyfree
>on Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:38
>#1196903

 

>Please explain how America is broke?

>Household Net Worth = 57 trillion

>Public Debt = 12 trillion

>Which number is bigger?

 

False dichotomy! I call shenanigans!

The actual bigger number is unfunded obligations:

http://www.shadowstats.com/article/hyperinflation-special-report-2011#_T...

 

I move that the poster be recognized as a Republidemocratican shill.

 

Sat, 04/23/2011 - 19:50 | 1199999 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

But dootyfree's the only guy who knows how the monetary system works.

Ask him, he'll tell ya.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:40 | 1196924 JailBank
JailBank's picture

So buy more PMs, bullets, guns, and a bunker? Got the first three, wonder if I can get a bunker from Wal Mart? Of course this bunker will be built in China.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:44 | 1196928 Dr. Impossible
Dr. Impossible's picture

when you mention the potential of slavery/servitude loss of freedom...you must remember the discovery of "the table of compounding percentages" and the global impact it has had since. Many people believe it is the single discovery responsible for bringing modern mankind out of the days of slavery. It is a tool, undeniably a proven absolute....out in the wild now..any efforts to expunge it by leaders, competent or not, will be comical at best. Because attempts to expunge, will end in scenarios pitting elites, with potentially large losses at risk, against a foe which has a pocket full of quarters in this arcade.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 15:06 | 1197053 samsara
samsara's picture

"...must remember the discovery of "the table of compounding percentages" and the global impact it has had since..."

 

Yes, 

Wages increase Linearly,

Interest increases Geometrically

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 16:01 | 1197327 Dr. Impossible
Dr. Impossible's picture

your missing my point...the table of compounding percentages IS the greatest OVER-UNITY device,tool, achievement, ...EVER DISCOVERED....maybe even greater then the wheel, for the energy conservation ratio's input/output man power factor, and the durability of.

planet wide ....maybe 100 million "elite class" with real purchasing power, with necessity to protect it, some call this an asset, others consider it a liability.

 ...the other 6 BILLION PLUS,"have pockets full of quarters, to play the arcade" game of compounding percentages.

I'll put my ass and assets with the 6 billion, and further, i will do my best to promote ways for you to make this choice  as well.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:55 | 1196986 MrBoompi
MrBoompi's picture

Congress could have retained its authority to coin money (or borrow at no interest) but chose to give it away to private bankers. Since that time, every dollar issued is a dollar of debt, loaned out at interest through the federal reserve system. They have allowed way too much leverage through the use of derivatives, squared and cubed. They use government debt as collateral to create even more money through their fractional reserve system. Pay off the government debt and you have no underlying collateral right? They create paper markets for precious metals so they can extend their derivatives and over-leveraging there as well.

They've cornered the market on technology, speed, and have legislators in their pockets. They are the regulators.

Why is counterfieting illegal but putting others in debt without their permission legal?

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 15:00 | 1197017 trav7777
trav7777's picture

You have central banking and its bastard stepchild, Keynesian deficit spending.

Government debt represents the money supply lent into the economy.  Bankers, for letting us use their money, expect a percentage of everything we own and do.

During times of deflation, when credit contracts and the compound interest function threatens to implode the entire monetary base, vaporizing all of it in a deflationary catastrophe, governments resort to NECESSARY measures like Keynesian borrowing to maintain a money supply.  They have no choice.   The system REQUIRES perpetually growing debt.  It's either watch the whole monetary system implode and for there to be literally NO money, or else go to the bankers and borrow more.

The problem is the bankers; the compound interest racket, usury, the clan of usury.  Same suspects as always.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 15:23 | 1197154 pods
pods's picture

Well said trav.  The purpose of our government at this point in time is to prevent a Roman waterfall deflationary collapse and maintain legal tender status for FRNs.

pods

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 15:53 | 1197291 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

Well said, though the problem is capitalism.  The banker-gangsters are merely the most perfect and logical symptom of the larger disease.

Sat, 04/23/2011 - 11:11 | 1198965 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Ugh. We haven't had anything approaching capitalism in this country since 1913. The problem is socialism (both national socialism and communism) which have been running the world since then.

Please leave here and crawl back into your HuffPuff hole or you DailyKos cave. Ignorance such as your will not be tolerated for long here.

Sat, 04/23/2011 - 12:01 | 1199093 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

Sure thing, Skippy, except that private (money) capital runs the world today.  For proof, just look around at all this confected silliness about the sacrosanct money governments owe to drug-addled derivatives peddlers.

Furthermore, your attempts to go back to the halcyon days of capitalism that brought about the White Man's fratricidal three decade campaign of global slaughter is quaint in its lack of historical understanding.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 15:04 | 1197038 dexter_morgan
dexter_morgan's picture

Freedom? People don't give a damn about freedom and liberty or we wouldn't have all there ridiculous intrusive social programs with good sounding names like nationalized health care. Every right and freedom you give up for more 'protection' is forever lost.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 15:06 | 1197040 CustomersMan
CustomersMan's picture

               PIVOTAL YEAR 1913

     Before 1913 Jews were chased from country to country for their crimes against the rest of us goyim (cattle).

     Since establishing the Federal Reserve (neither Federal or a Reserve) they have managed to get a country, dominate the complete landscape of American Political and Economic Power, and make themselves the richest people in the world.

 

    We pay a huge tribute each year to their country, and their co-conspirators here run the Financial House of Cards and all connected to the recent "Great Bailouts".

     In fact we BORROW money from them to give them each year for our tribute.

 

    We supply their Military with every drop of fuel, most equipment (a large part of that 2.3 Trillion that went missing at the Pentagon) and let them steal our secrets and technological advances.

 

Try to get a share, or a position in a new IPO, and let me know how that goes. Meanwhile they rule over the cream of the crop along with all the perks of knowing what the most innovative minds are thinking and doing. 

 

     We also fight their wars for them with American men, equipment and support, so that they can dominate the Middle East and Caspian Basin Oil resources ( that was what Georgia was built up for, ).

They have betrayed us by killing Americans in the USS Liberty attack, etc.

 

     They are making it a crime to question their view of history and soon you will be jailed for calling them on their treachery, and sticking it up your ass while they laugh and pull down Billions.

     Yes, It Began With Their Control of OUR MONEY and BANKING

 

       C0INCIDENCE : NOT

 

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 15:12 | 1197085 Biosci
Biosci's picture

...once upon a time made America the great countries that future generations will only read about in history books.

Really?  When was that?  The 80s, when the shining city on the hill was a beacon to the oppressed masses in eastern Europe?  That was about the time we decided deficits didn't matter and handed the keys to the bankers, as I recall.  The 50s, when the first warnings about the military-industrial complex were heard?  The 40s, when the Greatest Generation mobilized against an evil enemy?  Biggest public spending program in history to date.  The birth of the nation?  Where all men were created equal -- as long as you were a land-owning white male.  Stop wishing for a repeat of a better time.  This was always inevitable.

Every fiat currency has failed.  Guess what:  so has every hard currency.  Guess what:  so has every government.  They all fail.  What you see today is a snapshot in a much larger dynamic picture.  There is a cycle of birth, flourishing, decay, and failure; repeat.  Where we are now is pretty obvious.  See it, be aware, prepare for what's next, but for God's sake stop pining for a past that never was.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 15:17 | 1197118 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Spot on. Time to be re-born as it were.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 15:19 | 1197124 citizen2084
citizen2084's picture

The article is incorrect when it states "The govt produces NOTHING". This is flat out wrong. The goverment makes two things in a highly effective manner.

1 - Govt makes dead bodies out of living ones.  

2- Govt makes criminals out of innocent people. (Please, this is not saying there are no criminals without govt assistance)  

Ciao

 

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 16:40 | 1197436 aerial view
aerial view's picture

valid points by author. I would go one step further and add that DEBT is the narcotic of choice for the banking elites to control and enslave govts, countries and their people. Now what are we going to do about it?!

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 16:47 | 1197476 lynnybee
lynnybee's picture

another article when it seems appropriate to post this YOUTUBE clip :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ8mFbLDnlA

October 3, 2001, Ariel Sharon stated on Israeli radio,  " We, the Jewish people, control America & the Americans know it. "  

the truth hits right in the guts, unfortunately, people are afraid to speak the truth.   that statement by Ariel Sharon was never reported here in America.   I wonder why not ?

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 18:09 | 1197709 onarga74
onarga74's picture

because it was temporary and minor.  China became our daddy.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 17:03 | 1197519 lynnybee
lynnybee's picture

 ... a managed debt-based economy .    our children & grandkids deserve better than this.   it's called usery.  

Mon, 04/25/2011 - 14:20 | 1204479 tomster0126
tomster0126's picture

thanks to all the greedy baby boomers who run today's biggest financial corporations, and the politicians who've jeopardized any chance of prosperity in the future.

 

www.forecastfortomorrow.com

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 17:13 | 1197559 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

Debt is symptom of mismanagement. So called masters of universe have been revealed that they are no better than monkeys.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 18:37 | 1197755 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

FED Window to Corporations? 0%(ish) with Tax Benefits in Place that make it Profitable to draw down from.

 

The Government using FED Dollars Printed Out of Thin Air to pay for the difference in what is collected in Taxes (O% if you are General Electric or Rich and 30 fucking % if you are Poor and make anything under Millions) and what the Federal Government Spends on Fluff Items to En-Rich the Corporations who Pay the Lobby, 6%.

 

So, Corporate America Pay 0%..

"We the People" Pay the FED 6%..

 

Is it just me or is everyone else just fucking fed up with this bullshit?

 

Our Taxes go towards paying for Debt that is printed out of thin air that we then pay 6% on.. the same dollars that the Lobby Whores make sure are lent out at 0%.. same fucking dollar bills, same lender and the same people running both sides of the scam.

 

Fuck You America! You are to, too stupid to care about how you are Fucked!

 

 

Mon, 04/25/2011 - 14:22 | 1204487 tomster0126
tomster0126's picture

Fiat money = the root of all evil, and the cause of America's downfall.  We're so obsessed with money, now we're not going to have shit.  ironic.

 

www.forecastfortomorrow.com

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 21:11 | 1198045 SwingForce
SwingForce's picture

When do The Sheeple wake up and figure out what Max points out in IRELAND?

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/max-keiser-irish-eco-hell

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 21:32 | 1198092 honestann
honestann's picture

Duh.  Of course governments should never borrow.

However, that is not the "only issue" with regard to governments and their behavior.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 22:25 | 1198196 Coldfire
Coldfire's picture

The unsustainable fiscal situation of the US government is being resolved before our very eyes. It is necessarily a process whose end (and there will be an end) could come with a bang or with a whimper. I'm with T.S. Eliot on the latter.

Sat, 04/23/2011 - 00:19 | 1198407 stirners_ghost
stirners_ghost's picture

The case against government. Period.

 

Nonvoluntary exchanges usually produce a net loss of wealth.

-Allen Thornton

 

Sat, 04/23/2011 - 12:00 | 1199100 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

Like wage slavery, for example.

Sat, 04/23/2011 - 01:27 | 1198490 natew
natew's picture

Fun with math.   Just as when a person pays a minimum on high credit card debt will pay double their purchases in interest so does the government.   Just head to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_U.S._public_debt to get the history of govt debt since 1977, and start adding up the interest paid each year. 

You end up seeing that since 1977, of the $13.5 trillion debt in 2010, had an acumulated interest of almost $9 trillion.  So in essense the compounding interest now accounts for 66% of the debt, thanks to low interest.  In 2002, the accumulated interest on the debt was 95% of the debt.

In a snapshop, looking at 2010, could one say borrowing $4.5 trillion over 34 years cost $9 trillion?

Sat, 04/23/2011 - 01:53 | 1198515 BlackholeDivestment
BlackholeDivestment's picture

Every tyrant has a hole in their head and has zero interest in giving up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbwwfNL4QUM

The Federal Reserve is a black hole. It has no case, zero interest well defines that fact. It is a terminal contagious encephalitic mad cow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4la8Izrwea8 

 Be a friend, end the Fed.

                    Denny Crane...

Sat, 04/23/2011 - 18:33 | 1199851 nah
nah's picture

we got a war on terrorism and a war on drugs right... almost had a global war on carbon sequester technology or some shit but this is the toP of the pyramid and you will never see in your mu'fukin lyfe

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war on debt BITCHEZ

Mon, 04/25/2011 - 14:18 | 1204466 tomster0126
tomster0126's picture

Raising the debt ceiling again would be a fatal move for our economy...these bastards simply don't know what to do with themselves, let's go medieval on Bernanke!

 

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