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CFTC Commissioner Bart Chilton Reveals "One Trader" Controls 40% Of Silver Market, As Silver Holdings Of SLV Hit All Time Record

Tyler Durden's picture


After we reported a week ago that JPMorgan was trying to corner the copper market, many noted this was not surprising, considering the bank's comparable approach in manipulating various other precious metal markets. Naturally, we extrapolated that the main reason why the CFTC continues to refuse to delay implementation of position limits is precisely due to the JP Morgan's need to control commodity pricing precisely due to such manipulative trading practices: "As for the CFTC, we now know why they are so intent on delaying the size limit discussion:
after all, any regulation will be forward looking - better let JPM
accumulate all commodities it can and distribute these via hidden
channels to affiliated subs before the ever so busy Gary Gensler corrupt
cronies decide to raise their finger on what is increasingly an ever
more blatant market manipulation scheme. At least in this case, JPM will
push the price higher unlike what it is doing courtesy of its gold and
silver manipulation. However, the PM market (especially Asian accounts)
will soon make sure Blythe Masters is looking for a job within 3 months
as we predicted a few weeks ago." The only problem with this story is that so far, is that unlike copper, JP Morgan's now legendary paper short in the silver market, long taken for granted by the "less than in mainstream" community, has been persistently ignored by the broader media due to the a lack of concrete evidence. Hopefully that will now change: courtesy of a speech delivered by none other than the CFTC commissioner Bart Chilton, who continues to expose the CFTC and the banker cartel's illegal market manipulation practices, we now have proof that "one trader held over 40 percent of the silver market." As this trader is either JP Morgan directly, or various Blythe Masters proxies, we can only hope that finally the broader outcry against JPM's ongoing attempt to suppress precious metal prices (insert Mike Krieger/Max Keiser "Crush JP Morgan" campaign here) will force the bank to finally unwind its shorts. And if not, perhaps the market speculators will do it for them: as of Friday, the SLV ETF held an absolute record 10,941 tonnes of silver, an increase of 163 tonnes for the week.

What is even more amusing is that the Bart Chilton disclosure came during a speech blasting that other manipulative scourge of the market: High Frequency Trading (it is helpful that over a year after Zero Hedge first recognized HFT as the biggest threat to market stability, subsequently confirmed by the flash crash, now the very CFTC is finally confirming we have been right all along). In an ideal world, there would be an overhaul  to both position limit and HFT trading rules. Alas, we live in a world, in which the son of the heretofore biggest known ponzi, Bernie Madoff, has decided to take his own life on the two year anniversary of his father's ignominious collapse. Surely, should the regulators confirm that our own markets are nothing but a massive ponzi, the suicides will be far more pervasive, as all those who "trade the tape" realize they have been following the crowd right over the cliff.

First, here is a snapshot of (alleged) silver holdings in the SLV ETF, which many believe is a direct and indirect attempt by Asian banks to force a massive short covering capitulation by JP Morgan.

And here is the full December 8 speech by Bart Chilton. Relevant sections have been highlighted (h/t Bill Murhpy and LeMetropole).


Speech by Commissioner Bart Chilton before the High Frequency Trading World USA 2010 Conference, New York

December 8, 2010


Good morning and thanks to Terrapinn, and especially Matt Bednarsky, for the kind invitation to speak with you today.

Today, I’m going to spend a few minutes talking about speed.  That
is, speed not only with regard to computers in trading but also to
regulation.  Together, we’re all going boldly where no man has gone
before.  I’ll also share with you a few of my thoughts about the
happenings and changes that are occurring in Washington that will impact
Wall Street and LaSalle Street and a bunch of people on streets that
not many folks have even heard about.

Streets With No Name

In fact, forget about Wall Street or LaSalle, it really doesn’t
matter the name of your street at all.  Many High Frequency Trading
(HFT) and other financial trading firms don’t even have offices in New
York or Chicago, let alone London, Hong Kong or Singapore.  If you have a
connection, you can trade, and trade they do.  A recent report says HFT
firms account for about 50 percent of European markets.  Our CFTC
economists say high frequency traders (HFTs) account for roughly a third
of all trading volume on regulated U.S. futures exchanges. 

HFT companies don’t even need traditional traders on staff.  The
types of professionals represented in today’s HFT firms might be more
suited for the deck of the starship Enterprise than a traditional
trading firm.  These are mathematicians, programmers and physicists. 
Moreover, with the advent of Star Trek-like “gee whiz” HFT technology,
we are witnessing one of the most game-changing and tumultuous shifts
we’ve ever seen in financial markets.  Is it being done correctly?  Are
there new rules or regulations that should be in place?  If so, who,
what and how should it all be done?  Those are some of the questions
being asked.

Many of you may recall from your television education that the Enterprise and other starships of the 24th
century travelled at faster than light warp speeds using dilithium
crystals for power.  Today’s HFT firms are travelling at the same
superfast speeds in their bold quest to seek out new life and new
civilizations. Scratch that:  in their quest to scoop up market
micro-dollars in nanoseconds.  That makes this an exciting time and an
exhilarating environment in which to live.

Wall Street Reform

There are, however, many other fascinating changes taking place in
markets and in our economy.  That makes this all not only an
exhilarating, but also a challenging time.

Given the economic meltdown, which we saw in full force beginning in
2008, Congress saw the need to re-write financial laws.  In July,
Congress passed and the President signed the most sweeping financial
reform bill in history:  the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer
Protection Act.

Dark to Light OTC Markets

If there is one chief concept behind the new law, it is
transparency.  In the futures world, the major change will be bringing
light and regulatory oversight to the over-the-counter (OTC) derivatives
market.  As you know, OTC markets are where those annoying credit
default swaps traded.  To give you an idea of how this increases the
regulatory universe, the currently CFTC-regulated exchanges account for
roughly $5 trillion in annualized trading.  The OTC market is roughly
$600 trillion.  We are going boldly where no regulator has gone before.
 To say the least, we have our work cut out for us.

Speculation and Position Limits

In addition to OTC markets, there is another key provision of real
significance required by the new law.  In the run-up to 2008, we saw an
enormous shift in speculative money coming into futures markets.  Over a
several year period, roughly $200 billion in speculative money came
into these markets.  Crude oil reached $147.27 a barrel; gasoline topped
$4 a gallon.  Wheat, which trades at roughly $8 a bushel these days,
was trading at $24.  It went on and on, and then it all crashed.

I’m not suggesting a direct correlation between the inflow of
speculative money or positions and the price volatility, by any means. 
Many of us learned, however, that while there may not be such a
thing as too much speculative money, that same money might be too
.  We saw very large concentrations of trader positions in
2008.  That has continued.  Since then, we saw one trader hold more than
20 percent of the crude oil market.  Even earlier this year, one trader
held over 40 percent of the silver market

While I’m not suggesting speculators drove prices in 2008 or
today, I know they had an impact then and believe they are having some
impact today.  You don’t have to take it from me though.  Economists at
Oxford, Princeton and Rice universities all document that speculators
have had an impact on prices.

Congress got it, and that is why the new law requires mandatory
speculative position limits—to ensure that too much concentration
doesn’t exist.

Crude and Gas

News stories on front pages in recent days report the nearly 10-cent
surge in gasoline prices as a result of increased crude oil futures (by
the market close last Friday, the NYMEX price had risen nearly $7 to
$89.19 in the past two weeks). The same articles point out that crude
futures are somewhat delinked from supply and demand.  With strong
supply and relatively weak demand, one energy economist said, “There is
nothing a normal person would look at and come up with what’s
happened.”  Maybe we need to look again at the experts.  An April 2010
MIT study said that “. . . speculation may temporarily push crude oil
prices above the level justified by physical-market fundamentals . . .

New Speculation Data

One might ask if there are as many speculative positions today as
there were in 2008.  If folks thought speculative levels were high then,
data I’m discussing for the first time today reveal an even greater

Speculative money from the likes of hedge funds, index funds and
pension funds is coming into the commodity markets at a blistering
pace.  There are more of these speculative positions now than at any
time. To provide a more granular data look, between June of 2008 and
October of 2010, futures equivalent contracts held by these types of
speculators increased 47 percent in energy contracts, 20 percent in
metals and 18 percent in agricultural commodities.  More than $149
billion in speculative money in commodities markets represents more
futures contracts than at any previous time.  (Note: While the dollar
amount of speculative money was slightly higher in 2008 at $162
billion, the actual number of futures positions held by these
speculators was less due to the high cost of commodity contracts).

Not Bad Guys

Now, there is nothing whatsoever wrong with those speculators being
in markets. Bless them.  We need speculators.  Without them, there is no
market, full stop.  The sheer size, however, of concentrated
speculative interests has the potential of moving markets, of
influencing true price discovery.  That can make life difficult for the
hedgers who use markets to manage commercial business risks, and for
consumers who rely upon them to fairly price just about everything they
purchase.  Everything from a loaf of bread to a gallon of milk or gas to
a home mortgage is impacted by these markets.

So, where does that leave us?


When Congress passed the new reform bill this past July, it
determined mandatory speculative position limits were required.  Of the
more than 40 rules that the CFTC is required to promulgate, most are
required to be completed by next July.  Only a few have shorter
deadlines.  Mandatory position limits are in that small group and are
required to be implemented by mid-January for energy and metals

You may have read news stories recently where some say we can’t make
that deadline, shouldn’t make that deadline, need to hold off until we
get more data or better data so that the levels can be calculated with
exact specificity.  In an idyllic world, that might be fine.  Congress,
however,  gave the agency the earlier implementation date for a
reason—so that we put limits in place now, not some later time of our
choosing.  Additionally, the law provides no such authority for
regulators to delay the imposition of these limits.  There is no
regulatory escape valve.

That hasn’t, however, slowed some folks down.  There are creative
suggestions for ways around the implementation requirement.  Some
proffered that the agency formally approve a final rule and consider
that step as “implementation” under the law.  At the same time, the rule
would not make the limits effective until sometime in the
future.  They essentially propose the agency implement a rule on time
without implementing it on time—without making it effective.  If that
sounds convoluted, it is.  That sort of dancing on the head of a legal
pin is exactly the variety of Washington-speak that makes folks in our
country furious.  I’d also bet that those in Congress who wrote the
provision would have an opinion on the matter.

When President Obama signed the new law, he said the reforms
“represent the strongest consumer financial protections in history.”
 The mandatory position limits provision is one of those consumer
protections.  The CFTC has an obligation to do what Congress and the
President instructed us to do . . . and on time.


So, how might the new law have an effect on high frequency trading?  Does anyone remember the movie Speed?  It
is about 15 years old but still popular after all that time.  Sandra
Bullock plays a passenger on a bus wired with a bomb.  She is told the
bomb will trigger if the bus slows down to 50 miles-per-hour.  She winds
up having to drive the bus and negotiate curves, off-ramps and traffic,
all at a speed over 50 miles-per-hour.  Well, as I said, HFT is taking
place at warp speed. It is not ever going to slow down to 50
miles-per-hour.  Is warp speed okay?  Are there any negatives?  Does
that speed help markets?  At the very least, as regulators, we need to
keep up with what is going on.

Computer technology in trading is great for many reasons, not just
for the “gee whiz” things mentioned earlier, but because it can increase
liquidity in markets.  It adds access that we've never seen, and for
auditors, exchanges and regulators, it's great because electronic data
trails exist instead of trying to piece together pieces of papers from
trading rooms.  So, there are many good things about computer trading,
but we also have to think about the myriad ramifications of technology.

Flash Crash 

One such ramification gave us a wake-up call on May 6th
 Financial markets came unwound that afternoon.  You’ve heard the horror
stories.  Stock in Accenture, for example, went from $40.13 to just a
penny before recovering.  The Dow lost nearly 1,000 points, and then
recovered more than two thirds of it by the close of trading.  If the
crash had occurred earlier that day, when European markets were still
open, the entire financial world would’ve been rocked. 

The report issued October 1st by the staffs of the CFTC
and the SEC tells us what happened.  It doesn't point fingers at a
single culprit like some people think.  It describes markets that were
already jittery due to economic news coming out of Europe.  Volatility
was double normal levels, but liquidity was light.  Sellers couldn’t
find buyers.  Then when one firm utilized a trading program—not HFT, but
an algorithmic robot—to sell what would usually be a pretty ordinary
set of 75,000 S&P E-Mini futures contracts valued at over $4
billion, the markets went off a cliff.

HFT arbitrageurs and others, seeing that market plummet, recognized
an opportunity to buy low at one exchange and sell corresponding
contracts at a higher price elsewhere. That is one of the reasons we saw
the cascading effect within commodity and securities markets.   

The good news is that markets recovered much of the loss.  It’s also
good news that regulators and exchanges are instituting procedures to
make markets more effective and less susceptible to disruption. 

It may surprise some, but mini flash crashes occur all too often. 
They don’t cause as much of a disruption as that of May 6, but more than
once this year in futures markets and several times in individual
stocks, runaway robotic programs have disrupted markets.  By that I
mean, they cost people money.  In February, for example, one company
lost a million dollars in the oil market in less than a second. That
company lost its own money but sometimes whole markets are affected and
many innocent people are hurt. 

Police Department 

Things can happen so fast that, all too often, regulators are like
the fire department that comes in and cleans up the charred remains.  In
practice, we need to be more like the police department trying to keep
these disasters from happening in the first place.

As you know, these HFT programs and computers are not static.  They
are intuitive.  They can track market moves and make adjustments
accordingly.  They are extremely sensitive.  They play off one another
and react at nanosecond speeds. For regulators to keep up, we have to
somewhat get in the mind of the mainframe. We have to be nimble and
quick because even if we get a better handle on how to regulate this
breakneck speed trading, the methods, the machines and the markets will
continue to change.


At the first meeting of CFTC’s Technology Advisory Committee (TAC) in
July, some firms provided evidence that elements of the Flash Crash may
have been caused by so many orders going into the order book so fast
that the market couldn't respond.  One member of the committee called it
“algorithmic terrorism.” I call it algo price piracy, where one
algorithm “invades” another.  It doesn’t appear that happened May 6, but
I’m sure it can.  Some of our committee members who are knowledgeable
about this think it does.  It may be innocent or it may not be, but it
points out how regulators need the speed to keep up with an ever-faster
set of markets.

HFT Limits 

Given our experience with the Flash Crash and mini flash crashes, it
is appropriate to consider if there should be limits on high frequency
trading.  For example, we were talking about position limits earlier. 
Say we allow 10 percent of open interest in a market.  Should high
frequency traders be allowed to trade 10 percent, repeatedly, in a very
short time period?  We certainly should not allow some situations to
exist.  What about five HFTs, each trading 10 percent of the market in
ten minutes, in concert, and it moves a market?  Is that okay?

Purpose of Markets

That issue, however, raises the broader question about this type of
trading in general.  Don’t get me wrong, HFT trading is part of our
trading today but should it remain the same?  Is this type of trading
outside of—or is it even inimical to—the fundamental purposes of capital
formation and risk management in these markets?  Many commercial firms
trying to hedge their risks complain about the inability to get into the
markets as they have in the past due to sheer number and speed of
HFTs.  I understand there are arguments on both sides, but if we lose
the commercials, we won’t have the types of markets we need to ensure
price discovery and appropriate risk management.

Unstoppable and Accountability

Another way to address some of these potential circumstances is to
impose legal responsibility on high frequency and algo robot trading
that roils markets.  I saw Denzel Washington in the movie Unstoppable
over the weekend.  He was great, as usual.  As this runaway train
travelled at high speeds across Pennsylvania, I thought about
accountability.  The train company was constantly calculating the costs
of what action to take.  Do they try to derail the train in a remote
area where an accident will cost them less money?  Should they try to
stop it by putting people on the train and risk lives?  It struck me
that the reason the company thought about those things was that there
are laws that will hold them accountable.  Shouldn’t we do the same for
algo robots and HFTs?  Those who instigate runaway high frequency or
algo robot trades should be held accountable when they hurt other market
participants or injure consumers.

One way to address the matter is to include such a provision in our
new anti-disruptive trading practices authority.  We should prohibit
certain conduct that is specific to algo robots and high frequency
trading.  Taking into account what happened on May 6, this certainly
seems like a reasonable proposition. 

Seal of Approval

I believe, and think there are others at the Commission who would
agree, there should be some standard definition of what high frequency
trading is and maybe even a kind of “Good Housekeeping Seal of
Approval.”  Should that be done?  If so, who should do it?  I’d
certainly like to ensure as part of our core principles that exchanges
have certain due diligence and HFT is vetted from the start.  I’d also
like to ensure that all exchanges have the ability to monitor individual
programs trading and aggregate and slice, dice and chop up data to get a
better handle on what is and could go on in market.

Deep Breath

I know a little of this might sound scary to some of you. 
Nevertheless, take a deep breath.  First, I’m always candid and we don’t
get to good or bad ideas without talking about them.  In fact, I hope
you will help us as we consider what to do so that we don’t make
mistakes.  Without your participation, we could do a lot of damage.  I
get that.  Second, remember that good people shouldn’t fear appropriate
rules or regulations.  The bad actors should fear rules and regulations.
Third, we have a big thing in common: we all want markets that are
efficient, effective and free of fraud, abuse and manipulation. 


We may not have this in common, but I know there are many NASCAR fans
in this country.  Even if you are not, it is cool to see those cars go
really fast.  Folks love to watch somebody take the checkered flag.  And
admit it, sometimes we like to see a crash.  However, we don’t want
anybody to get hurt.  We certainly don’t want innocent bystanders in the
grandstand to get hurt. 

The same is true in markets.  Folks want high frequency trading
because of its advantages.  What nobody wants is for anybody to get hurt
because of unintended consequences, including traders themselves. 
Therefore, whether you’re driving around a NASCAR track, on a starship,
in a train, or on a bus, it’s the regulators’ job to prevent accidents
from happening.


If you remember the original “Speed,” somebody asks Sandra Bullock if
she thinks she can drive the bus and she says, “Oh yeah, it’s just like
driving a big Pinto.”  I’m not sure if our job is as easy as driving a
Pinto, and that’s the first car I learned to drive, but I am sure
working together, we can get the job done.  We just have to be careful
and watch our speed.

Thank you.  Happy Holidays.  Live long


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Sat, 12/11/2010 - 14:56 | 798881 boricuadigm-shift
boricuadigm-shift's picture

Is history repeating itself?


Research who was Brooksley Born in CFTC and what she try to do just before LTCM collapse.  Its infuriating and sad at the same time.  There is a PBS documentary on this:




Sat, 12/11/2010 - 15:03 | 798892 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

It was an interesting speech, but it sure does sound familiar like you suggest boricuadigm.

I would like to see some action now.

NONE of our problems have been solved.  NO ONE who matters has gone to jail since the financial crisis started.

Until I see some REAL CHANGE, most of my spare change will go to gold, silver and platinum.  No, I will not be creating jobs with my capital.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 15:54 | 798961 billhilly
billhilly's picture

Speaking of change, I wonder if there was ANY talk about position limits at the Dec. 9 meeting...more extend and pretend?

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 16:07 | 798977 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Being kind of out of the action down here, I would not know about changes in position limits.

I´ll will extend my position limits upon my return in PMs.

Pretend and extend is what we will get until somone in authority acts.   I guess the question here is: if, not when.  QE to infinity and all that as well.

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 00:36 | 799644 dlmaniac
dlmaniac's picture

I doubt Brooksley Born did anything to curb silver manipulation, tho. As I sure know that Ted Butler was complaining all along.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 17:26 | 799109 midtowng
midtowng's picture

Let's compare this to the Hunt Brothers from Wikipedia:

"The brothers were estimated to hold one third of the entire world supply of silver (other than that held by governments)."

  The Hunt Brothers controlled 33% of the silver market and got fined. JPM holds 40% and no one says Boo.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 23:27 | 799599 Lord Koos
Lord Koos's picture

I think one difference was that the Hunts actually had a bunch of the metal.

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 02:28 | 799740 dhengineer
dhengineer's picture

And they were long, not short.

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 11:22 | 800018 SwingForce
SwingForce's picture

How about The Fed and its corner on RMBS?

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 07:32 | 799892 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

That extending and pretending is what they have been doing since the inception of the CFTC. Ask any judge sitting there. This is no more than covering bases. Imagine how they would pursue a long position of that size. If Chilton was really concerned, he'd be pulling the myopic press into a press conference and tell it like it is. It would however present him with security problems. Kevlar doesn't stop their ordinance.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 18:09 | 799177 dizzyfingers
dizzyfingers's picture

Should we all stop using banks and credit cards?

What else would be on the list?

Continue purchasing silver?

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 23:07 | 799580 PaperWillBurn
PaperWillBurn's picture

"But you start to follow the money, and you don't know where the fuck it's gonna take you." -The Wire


Too many people with their hands dirty. They don't want to prosecuting people 

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 00:00 | 799621 Seer
Seer's picture

We know where it leads!  AIG and the CIA- duh!  The Secret Government; and it's this government that's got the goods on all the "representatives"- figure this: do you think that ANY of us here would come out clear if the CIA wanted to nail us?  There would always be something to smear us with; figure that they control the media and it's, to borrow from George Tenent- "a slam dunk."

One either works for these folks and pretents to go after the "terrorists," in all their supposed forms, or one gets thrown under the bus.

The trail will NEVER be exposed.  Should it come close it'll be a massive self-destruct (like 9/11, which was used to cover up massive crime).

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 12:33 | 800088 TheProphet
TheProphet's picture

I'm sorry, I must have dozed off. What exactly was the massive crime that 9/11 was supposed to cover up?

Mon, 12/13/2010 - 08:04 | 801205 XPolemic
XPolemic's picture

I'm sorry, I must have dozed off. What exactly was the massive crime that 9/11 was supposed to cover up?

Gold robbery. WTC1/2 had a gold repository in the basement. The repository was rumoured to be one of the world's largest (although in 2 years of searching, I am yet to find a verifiable estimate to the quantity). Central Banks in the US and EUR have been selling physical gold (from their holdings) since the 80s, to depress the price, and suppress the traditional inflation signal (i.e. gold price). They did this to cover up a massive expansion of credit, which would normally be inflationary.

In 2004, a second Gold robbery was attempted, this time at the Iraqi central bank. US forces claimed the Iraqi central bank's gold as a 'spoil of war', but those spoilsports in the UN claimed that was against the Geneva convention. As a result, the federal reserve had to start raising interest rates to slow down the expansion of credit, which in turn imploded the housing market, and well, you know the rest.

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 12:32 | 800089 TheProphet
TheProphet's picture

I'm sorry, I must have dozed off. What exactly was the massive crime that 9/11 was supposed to cover up?

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 08:03 | 799908 FreeMartinArmstrong
FreeMartinArmstrong's picture

Is it the money you need to follow ?
or is wealth flowing the opposite way ?

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 03:10 | 799772 Ludwig Van
Ludwig Van's picture


@ boricuadigm-shift [@ first post] -- There's a link on the PBS link you offered with a page on which, among others, is a photo of Blythe Masters herself. I'm wondering if Mr. Banzai7 has this one in his archives.

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 06:03 | 799864 akenathon
akenathon's picture

You all should listen at this:

A truly shocking interview from GATA's head about all this story and his 15 Gold/Silver ratio forecast...



Sat, 12/11/2010 - 14:56 | 798882 whaletail
whaletail's picture

Topic on the table: Isn't JPM the custodian of the SLV bullion? Best read that prospectus, SLV holders.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 16:50 | 799046 bernorange
bernorange's picture

BlackRock Asset Management International Inc. is the sponsor of the trust, The Bank of New York Mellon is the trustee of the trust, and JPMorgan Chase Bank N.A., London branch, is the custodian of the trust.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 16:53 | 799049 Lord Koos
Lord Koos's picture

That's right... it's going to be interesting if people start asking for delivery.

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 21:40 | 800760 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

They are or are being offered cash at premium.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 16:56 | 799055 Lord Koos
Lord Koos's picture



Sat, 12/11/2010 - 15:02 | 798888 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

The age of machines is here. We are merely spectators, not even real speculators anymore.

So Ironical that there is a bunch of silver and gold in the synapses of those HFT machines making it all possible.

What a read. What a situation.

Crack up boom in-deed. And word.

As another said, rather eloquently, we shall watch together, yes?




Sat, 12/11/2010 - 15:07 | 798902 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

I´ll be here watching with you ORI. 

Ain´t the Internet great?  I write from Peru, but live in America (and return soon) and reply to our smart friend in India.

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 00:41 | 799649 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

I saw you gone for a bit back there and was wondering DoChen. Good to know you are in your second home. How's the weather? Summer time there right?

And yes, the internet. We shall indeed watch together! :-)


Sat, 12/11/2010 - 16:19 | 798990 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

The age of machines may well be with us ORI but unless they have somehow gained cognition:(At the first meeting of CFTC’s Technology Advisory Committee (TAC) in July, some firms provided evidence that elements of the Flash Crash may have been caused by so many orders going into the order book so fast that the market couldn't respond.  One member of the committee called it “algorithmic terrorism.” I call it algo price piracy, where one algorithm “invades” another.  It doesn’t appear that happened May 6, but I’m sure it can.) then they are simply machines that are operated by insider traders,

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 18:16 | 799194 dizzyfingers
dizzyfingers's picture

Goldman-Sachs again.

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 00:51 | 799655 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Al, cannot find the reference right now, but many years ago, the AT&T network went silent all over america for a few minutes. People who were in the thick of it described as the network having fallen asleep. And then it "woke up". 

I believe it might have been back in the 80's. It was considered the first known HAL moment, network sentience.

I do believe machines are still independently dumb but collectively....hmmmm...and the sheer pace of the network effect growth, quite stunning eh?


Sun, 12/12/2010 - 01:35 | 799697 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture
All Circuits are Busy Now: The 1990 AT&T Long Distance Network Collapse

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 07:00 | 799883 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Thanks BB. 

Trippy read. That was the tech side explanation. I lean towards Sentient networks. ;-)


Sat, 12/11/2010 - 15:01 | 798889 Thanatos
Thanatos's picture

And the beat goes on. Crooks are everywhere!

Never do business with anyone you can't "reach out and touch".

It changes things when they know there will be personal fallout from any monkey business.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 15:04 | 798894 Azannoth
Azannoth's picture

"Things can happen so fast that, all too often, regulators are like the fire department that comes in and cleans up the charred remains.  In practice, we need to be more like the police department trying to keep these disasters from happening in the first place."

Police never prevent crime, and very often are much later on the scene than firefighters(at least they have a deadline, till the house burns out, the cops dont have deadlines)

Otherwise I agree with you

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 15:39 | 798936 Arius
Arius's picture


Sat, 12/11/2010 - 16:37 | 799023 chopper read
chopper read's picture

when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. 

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 16:08 | 798973 Thanatos
Thanatos's picture

Police are getting tired of hearing this "they don't prevent" and we should be paying attention.

Preventing Crime against yourself and your property is YOUR Job... Not the Cops.

If you want to prevent crime, have a clue and present a hard crunchy exterior and obvious serious (death) consequences for violating that boundary.

It works.

If you are worried, hire some private consultants who can give you an assesment. They will tell you the same thing I did and only charge you a few K.

When the Cops get into "prevention" we are all fucked.

"Preventing" crime with statistical analysis and GIS applications already exists in DC and a trial in Baltimore is ongoing now.

This is the next big wave in law enforcement. Tied together with all the other metric collection mechanisms they have, will result in a formidable and utterly ignorant tool that will be used to put boot to ass in ways yet unseen!

Thrilling isn't it?

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 16:29 | 799009 trav7777
trav7777's picture

the law doesn't permit you in many places to present death as a consequence.  The State wants to exercise a monopoly over the use of force

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 16:47 | 799029 Thanatos
Thanatos's picture

Happens all the time where I live.

We have had 3 self defense killings this year in a town of 80,000 or so.

about 5 more that were hit but not killed including one hit in a run and gun in a parking lot at the mall.

at least 10 additional incidents of shots fired but no hits on the perp.

ZERO prosecutions against defenders.

"The West is the Best"

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 16:55 | 799053 cosmictrainwreck
cosmictrainwreck's picture

me confused..... you seem to contradict trav. No matter....what struck me about your prior post was flash to that flick "Minority Report". Kewl....we get to go to that wonderland, too, huh?

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 17:01 | 799066 Thanatos
Thanatos's picture

It's not that fancy.

Just an algorythm, a big database and a GIS.

Says go here at 7:00 to 9:00 pm and watch for murders.

They go and park a sqaddie on the corner and no murders happen.

They go back and report a success.

Dr. Crime sends them to a new location next time or whatever...

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 17:06 | 799077 Thanatos
Thanatos's picture

Not contradict, just pointing out that it isn't the same everywhere.

Our DA (now our governor) was pretty tough on lowlifes.

As long as you called the cops after the fact and didn't try to hide the body, you would probably be good.

Here is a link to some crime predictive analysis:


Sat, 12/11/2010 - 16:40 | 799030 chopper read
chopper read's picture

exactly.  i'm happy to wear a gun on my hip, but somehow this is now illegal.  why?  Because government seeks to monopolize force. 

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 17:29 | 799112 Thanatos
Thanatos's picture

Shoulder rigs are better imho. Unless your worried about IDPA rules.

With a shoulder rig you can take a crap and still have your roscoe handy. Hehe.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 18:04 | 799168 chopper read
chopper read's picture

are there any in particular that you recommend, T?

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 18:24 | 799209 spinone
spinone's picture

Glock .45 or .357 mag revolver.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 18:54 | 799260 Thanatos
Thanatos's picture

This is what I run most days:

Sig P220 Carry is what I "Carry" in it.

I like Galco and Desantis but EP Saddle is a lot nicer.

There are a lot of custom rigs out there too... But a little pricey.

The toolwork is optional, but I like it alot. Its worth the extra money IMHO.

People don't look you the same when you carry a decked out holster...

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 19:43 | 799331 chopper read
chopper read's picture

i like it!  i have that kimber in the picture, so its an easy sell.  i need one.  thanks for the recommendation. 

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 19:08 | 799276 Thanatos
Thanatos's picture

If you are an "outdoor" type that gets wet, sweaty, etc... Then consider a Nylon rig like a Bianchi..

Stay away from "Cheapies" like uncle mike unless you are a casual user. You get what you pay for in this dept. and it aint a dept. you want to skimp on.

Go to Sig Forum or and fire away. They luv noobs.

I almost feel guilty for gun talk here, No more weapon advice from me.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 21:16 | 799448 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"I almost feel guilty for gun talk here..."

No guilt here...LOL.

Beretta 84 w/13 rounds of Hydra-Shock...small, reliable, fast target aquisition, most comfortable pistol I've ever shot.

Whichever weapon one decides on (semi or revolver) they should be comfortable with it & practice with it...semi's can jam...revolvers don't, but revolvers have less ammo capacity if that is a concern.

I would add, like everything else, they require maintenance and familiarity (read use it, practice with it)...your life or someone in your family may depend on it one day.

My motto has always been, better to have it and never need it, than to need it and not have it.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 21:58 | 799512 merehuman
merehuman's picture

pipes and pipewrenches for me. Works well, needs no ammo and i can take it anywhere.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 22:47 | 799561 nmewn
nmewn's picture each his own my friend.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 22:52 | 799566 Thanatos
Thanatos's picture

I know a young guy who always carries a screwdriver in his back pocket... Same thing.

Nobody ever looks twice.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 23:09 | 799583 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I understand both merehuman's & your points.

Let me clarify...anything can be used as a weapon.

I was once involved in an altercation in a restaurant where my wife and the party I was with were attacked...I used what was at hand to end it.

Now, I simply have a preference for what will be at hand.

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 03:15 | 799778 Dr. Sandi
Dr. Sandi's picture

I was once involved in an altercation in a restaurant where my wife and the party I was with were attacked...I used what was at hand to end it.

And I'll bet that bastard is STILL cleaning cocktail shrimp out of his nostrils. Those little forks can be nasty too!

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 07:41 | 799895 nmewn
nmewn's picture


Wait Here To Be Seated...became...Wait Here To Be Treated.

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 04:22 | 799814 Thanatos
Thanatos's picture

I hear ya!

Will Work, Good, Better, Best.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 23:05 | 799575 Thanatos
Thanatos's picture

You sound solid.

Luck favors the prepared.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 20:13 | 799367 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

Check out the .357 MAG

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 19:42 | 799330 Trader7
Trader7's picture

Thanatos: I have never used a shoulder rig. I looked at your link to the spyder shoulder system and noticed it is a horizontal rig. What are the pros and cons of the horizontal draw vs vertical draw? Thanks in advance.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 23:20 | 799564 Thanatos
Thanatos's picture

Horizontal carry sweeps people behind you with the muzzle. I can be unnerving to walk behind a guy with .45 pointing at you under his arm.

Vertical is military style, they don't like getting swept with muzzles... Unless you are an officer, then you can sweep all you want... Hehe.

Vert is harder than horizontal to get out in a hurry... A shoulder rig is not a gunfighters rig... It's an admin rig. It's slow to deploy from, compared to a hip. Weapon Retention is generally good with a shoulder rig, better with a vert.

It comes in handy for sitting in chairs, getting in and out of cars, and being concealable with a jacket. Practical shit like day to day people do.

You can use it for all kinds of activities that a hip holster won't work for. Skiing, Riding, Etc.

They are not for everyone, some people hate them. They are not leagal for practical shooting comps (although I think they should be but that is not ZH stuff). Most CCW instructors will tell you nahhh... get an IWB. Whatever. Try em all, see which one works best for you.

As I pointed out earlier, you can take a crap and still have your weapon.

Ask yourself sometime... What does a guy who has a hip holster do with his weapon when he takes a shit?

Its a funny goddamn sight to see... They can't drop it onna floor... Don't wanna hold the weapon in the weak hand... Don't usually wipe with the weak hand either... Hahaha... Funnny!

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 01:15 | 799683 Trader7
Trader7's picture

Thanks. I think I do need to add a shoulder rig to my carry choices. You made a very good point about horizontal carry. I do not want the muzzle pointed in an unsafe direction. I will probably get a vertical rig in nylon, but it will not be a primary carry method.

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 02:13 | 799724 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

5.11 "man-purse" (PUSH pack) works in many situations. Great for hot weather, par example.

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 03:17 | 799781 Dr. Sandi
Dr. Sandi's picture

Ask yourself sometime... What does a guy who has a hip holster do with his weapon when he takes a shit?

Judging from the number of weird news stories I hear on the subject, I assume he fires a few rounds into the adjoining stall, the apartment downstairs or the store that shares a wall with his rest room.

I'm not sure this is going to protect him, but it certainly serves as a warning not to fuck with him when he's taking a dump!

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 06:18 | 799868 Thanatos
Thanatos's picture


Sun, 12/12/2010 - 22:04 | 800790 Trader7
Trader7's picture

   I tie my belt around the first belt loop on the right so the belt stays put, and drop my pants to the floor, and make sure the holstered gun is on top of them. I never remove it from the holster when using the toilet.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 16:58 | 799060 Thanatos
Thanatos's picture

We love our laws.

Even our Sheriff and City Chief come out on a regular basis and say in public that the first Guns to go will have to be theirs.

It's not the same as a city here. There is a big area and not many cops. There is an expectation of independence.

Hell the local swat teams teach Carbine, Shotgun and Subgun tactics in a two day class to anyone who wants, just sign up at any gun shop in town and bring the ammo. They will give it to you if you can't afford it and really want the class.

I live here by choice and I like it here better than any other place I have lived... That is a long list too.

Make a choice to move if you don't like what the local authorities will allow.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 17:18 | 799097 Thanatos
Thanatos's picture


As usual everything you point out is 100% correct.

I didn't mean to "pave over" that with my spew.

I just want to make clear that there are pockets in the US where lowlifes are allowed to be treated as such in the eyes of the law.

Feds might not like it, but here they are not exactly "in control". Nobody really is.

Whatever will fly... Does.

It's a kind of limited anarchy with a nod in the direction of order that many find unsettling and some find comforting.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 16:35 | 799020 LeBalance
LeBalance's picture

Let's be very specific when we define: "Police."  In the United States, for example, police are officers of the Court.  The Court being an arm of the Bank.  They are an entity a consumer may choose to turn to when events happen.  Choose wisely.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 17:21 | 799031 Thanatos
Thanatos's picture


Detectives Rule #1: Whom ever smelt it, Dealt it.

Still wanna call that in?

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 18:26 | 799200 dizzyfingers
dizzyfingers's picture

I agree with you and appreciate your comment. We all need to take responsibility. The police only write the history of crimes, rarely prevent.

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 00:16 | 799630 Seer
Seer's picture

'Police are getting tired of hearing this "they don't prevent" and we should be paying attention.'

If they don't like it, as you suggest, then perhaps they should look to remove all "To Serve and Protect?"  from everywhere they have it plastered?

"To serve and protect" is the motto on the door of the police cruiser. It's not a lie if you understand it means "to serve and protect the state."

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 01:26 | 799689 cranky-old-geezer
cranky-old-geezer's picture

It's not their job to prevent crime.  Their job is to enforce laws.

No one can prevent crime.  The only thing that works is swift harsh punishment when people commit crimes ...real crimes that is, not fake victimless crimes.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 15:04 | 798895 bigdumbnugly
bigdumbnugly's picture

thanks bart.  at least he's putting it out there again.  unfortunately i'm not expecting to see much above the fold coverage now any more than before - or that anything will be done about it anytime soon.


Sat, 12/11/2010 - 15:04 | 798896 Shermanium
Shermanium's picture

paging Judge Painter....Judge George Painter, you have a telephone call at the front desk...

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 22:51 | 799565's picture

Excerpted from Judge Painter's Big Adventure.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 15:18 | 798918 Sabremesh
Sabremesh's picture

"First, here is a snapshot of (alleged) silver holdings in the SLV ETF, which many believe is a direct and indirect attempt by Asian banks to force a massive short covering capitulation by JP Morgan".


What? If SLV doesn't actually hold physical, what is there for JPM to short cover? 

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 15:29 | 798928 whaletail
whaletail's picture

I THINK the idea here is: if the Asian banks bid up SLV, it has to purchase more bullion, taking more out of the market and reducing the likelihood JPM will find actual silver to cover.  But if SLV's silver is in JPM vaults, as its custodian, and the silver is in a bunch of unallocated bars, can't JPM snag that silver to cover and then put an IOU in the SLV account? If so, I smell JPM trump card. 

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 17:05 | 799074 Lord Koos
Lord Koos's picture

They don't have much of a trump card if some of the larger traders demand physical delivery of the metal.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 17:59 | 799160 Amish Hacker
Amish Hacker's picture

That's what I was wondering, too. If the goal is to force JP Morgan to cover, then why not buy futures and then stand for delivery? It wouldn't take much capital to exceed the eligible silver on the COMEX. And it's not as if the Asian banks don't already know this, so why hasn't it happened yet? Probably because it's not going to happen until the right people are properly positioned.

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 23:11 | 799437 delacroix
delacroix's picture

their massive unbacked  futures contracts. the comex hasn't taken any inventory to speak of, into the dealer inventory, in quite awhile. deliveries will stop, when supply disappears. the asians want to aquire as much metal from the well as possible, before it runs dry. the manipulators want the game to go on as long as possible. its not their silver they are losing.-

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 15:19 | 798921 dojiman
dojiman's picture

I was speaking to a mate of mine who is a third generation jeweller, he was telling me there is a shortage 1 kilo bars of gold anywhere in the Montreal region, Large bullion banks taking phone orders only and the waiting list is growing for gold bars, he also mentioned premiums of $1000 to $1500 per kilo bar and a minimum 30 day delivery. said he's never seen so much demand for large bars.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 15:41 | 798938 Arius
Arius's picture

pls extend that delivery date gold ol pal

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 18:36 | 799215 dizzyfingers
dizzyfingers's picture

Gold is king. Canada has troubles.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 15:21 | 798923 Trader7
Trader7's picture

I meant to comment on the previous article;

the one with the cartoon video explaining

JPM silver manipulation, but it took several days

to register.

   Tracing that video to its source I found a

distributor of physical silver(coins, bullion,etc).

This raises a red flag. The video suggests silver

will seek its historic ration with gold of 1:16(about $85oz), and

even go as high as $500 an oz. Now, if the producers

of the video believe this, why are they suggesting

in the video that people should buy physical silver

now at $29oz when they are sellers of physical silver?

Wouldn't they instead be hoarding silver until it reaches

$85oz, or even $500oz?

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 15:35 | 798933 bankrupt JPM bu...
bankrupt JPM buy silver's picture

You aleady wrote this on our youtube video.  We are brokers you moron.  And WHAT IF it doesnt go to $500? oh, I'll give you advice Trdaer7.  Find a shovel.  Dig a hole.  Jump in it.  Try to reach to the top with your shovel and burry yourself with the loose dirt.  Simple, easy, effetive way for you to stop questioning the obvious you fucktard.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 16:22 | 798994 SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

Where are Traders 1-6?  Perhaps they've already followed your advice.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 17:44 | 799134 Trader7
Trader7's picture

   I did not write anything on the youtube video. You are jumping to conclusions. If you believe silver will go way up, why not buy it and hoard it yourself rather than sell it for $29oz? There is no rational reason for your vehement defensiveness about what I said. If you are the one who made the video, and you have a stake in selling or brokering silver now at current prices, then there is a distinct conflict of interest in presenting the view in the video. That's all I was saying, and it is not meant as a personal attack. Your personal attack, however shows I am on the right track.


Sat, 12/11/2010 - 17:48 | 799140 tmosley
tmosley's picture

No, actually, it shows your substantial ignorance of the world.

According to you, brokers are a bunch of charlatans because if they really beleived in what they were selling you, they would keep it themselves and never sell it.

Did you ever stop to think about the fact that a bullion dealer keeps huge hedged inventories all the time, and that as such, in the event of, say, a COMEX default, they could cover their shorts for nothing and be left with their inventory as personal property?  Did you ever think about what it takes to keep that inventory?  Did you ever stop to think that maybe they, in fact, all hold huge amounts of silver in thier own private collections?

Obviously not.  

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 18:09 | 799180 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Plus, they actually take profit (gasp!) from trading with customers, and hence can use this to buy MORE for their own stash.


Sat, 12/11/2010 - 19:29 | 799311 Trader7
Trader7's picture

I did not say that brokers are all charlatans. I merely pointed out a conflict of interest. This seems to anger some of you, and one wonders why it would. Perhaps it hit home. Anyway I am a new member here and intent to conduct myself in a civil manner. Rant at me all you want, but you will receive nothing in return but my astute observations.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 20:13 | 799369 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Your "observations" are not astute, I'm sorry to say.  If brokers are inherently conflicted, then you need to take you ass and go live alone in the forest like an animal, because you don't believe in civilization.

For a "trader" to fail to understand one of the most basic premises of civilization is simply beyond my ability to understand.  You didn't "hit home" or anything like that.  You directly accused someone of fraud, and they got justifiably pissed off.  How would you like it if someone were to seek to invalidate your opinions and call you a thief and charlatan?  

For closing words, the fact that you characterize your own "observations" as "astute" points to a towering arrogance, one that has obviously clouded your ability to use reason.

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 01:28 | 799691 Trader7
Trader7's picture

tmoslev: Pointing out a conflict of interest is not an accusation of fraud. You are wrong again. You should probably not comment again until you can make sense.

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 02:01 | 799715 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Funny, lot's of people resort to the "you shouldn't comment again" meme when they can't come up with an argument.

Look, you made some very pointed accusations, and in so doing, you exposed your ignorance of how the world works.  Be a big boy and accept it.  When a real man sees that he is wrong, he doesn't simply continue escalating his commitment.  He APOLOGIZES.  You do not owe an apology to me, you owe one to the person you accused of having a conflict of interest (which IS an insult--I know, having had people crawl up my ass professionally about such things).

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 07:42 | 799896 ViewfromUnderth...
ViewfromUndertheBridge's picture

Well, I think your observations are ass-toot...

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 21:12 | 799440 delacroix
delacroix's picture

if you agree to a price, and the broker delivers the product, whats the problem?

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 23:27 | 799598 SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

The problem is one of utter stupidity.  Other than that, all is well.

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 02:04 | 799716 tmosley
tmosley's picture

The labor theory of value is sneaking around the back of his head.  The concept that a transaction can be to the mutual benefit of two parties is just beyond some people.

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 02:34 | 799746 Saxxon
Saxxon's picture

Why is Trader7 getting flash-trashed?  He is making a salient point; there is obvious hypocrisy in much of the pro-PM crew.

As much as I admire their acumen (they have been correct for 11 years) they almost to a man never tell anyone when to take profits while you can bet they themselves are savvy enough to back out some of their position even while cheerleading.


Sun, 12/12/2010 - 06:27 | 799821 Thanatos
Thanatos's picture

T7, I'd say that most brokers are not getting any fatter in good times than they got thinner in lean times.

Think of it like this:

You own a car dealership and a car comes out that you KNOW will go up in value.

You would love to take all your cash and just buy those cars and hold them until they go up.

You cannot do that though. You couldn't make the payments while waiting for profits from price inflation...

So you sell as many cars as you can and use the profits to buy more good ones.

Brokers are sellers (and buyers). Speculators are buy, hold and dump or buy more.

I look at the buy and sell price as well as spot when I buy. I NEVER buy in conditions I do not see as favorable to me, yet I understand that a brokers job is to provide me a place to buy and sell (if needed) PMs. They must be able to make a living doing it else there'll be no PMs. Personally, I want to see them well enough rewarded that they are not tempted to get greedy.

That is my best answer.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 18:39 | 799237 dizzyfingers
dizzyfingers's picture

I love that video.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 15:46 | 798943 Tortfeasor
Tortfeasor's picture

Think of them as a grocery store, as opposed to a investor.  They make money on transactions moreso than appreciation.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 22:28 | 799540 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

The "movement" of goods and services is how money is made -- silver (or anything else) sitting on a shelf is NOT making money!

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 15:50 | 798953 Eternal Student
Eternal Student's picture

As I recall, it was really obvious that the producer of the video was selling coins. And ZH mentioned that they sold out very quickly after the video.

Far more questionable is the supposed attempt to sell Max Keiser coins. The website disappeared after the article. But you know someone is out there thinking that this might be a great way to scam people, by taking a bunch of orders and running off with the money.

As far as the claim that Silver will hit $500 an ounce, yes, I found that highly questionable as well. I have no idea where it came from, but here's one analysis, from Harvey Organ's site today:

"Question: There are a total of 417 Billion notional in Gold derivatives outstanding – AND THE GOLD / SILVER Price RATIO is 49:1 – then WHY are outstanding notional silver derivatives 127 Billion???? These BIS numbers suggest that the proper gold / silver ratio should be roughly 3.3:1 or silver priced TODAY at 1,400 / 3.3 = 424.00 per ounce."


"Note: Even if we compare the OCC totals for silver versus gold derivatives from the table above – OCC data is supportive of a “proper” gold / silver ratio of 131.6 / 13.6 = 9.7 This implies a silver price of 1,400 / 9.7 = 144.00 per ounce of silver."

Personally, I don't know what Silver is going to do. Nor do I care. If there's something that I can do to try and help end this ungodly corruption on Wall Street and D.C., I'd pay money to help end it. And that's what I'm doing. If I end up making money to do so, well, that's just extra gravy.


Sat, 12/11/2010 - 16:53 | 799051 chopper read
chopper read's picture

i like your style. 

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 19:14 | 799293 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

"Personally, I don't know what Silver is going to do. Nor do I care. If there's something that I can do to try and help end this ungodly corruption on Wall Street and D.C., "

Amen brother.  Same here.

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 14:01 | 800224 Rusty Shorts
Sat, 12/11/2010 - 16:24 | 798999 Millivanilli
Millivanilli's picture

Dear numbnuts,


Silver dealers are in the business of selling, ah hem, silver.   I don't buy  it because THEY tell me it will 'go to the moon.'  Instead, I focus on the absolute meltdown of a HUGE FINANCIAL PONZI SCHEME.   By the way, did you read that the IMF will NOT commence with disbursing funds until the Irish vote for it.  And you realize, that if they can't launder money to the English, German and French bankers the whole system goes poof.   In a best case scenario, the only option is massive money printing.   


Now, here is a little assignment.   Find ONE FIAT currency that is over 100 years old.   By the way, since the inception of the unfederal federal reserve in 1913, the US dollar has lost over 97 percent of its purchasing power.


Only 3 percent to go....

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 16:55 | 799054 chopper read
chopper read's picture

 Find ONE FIAT currency that is over 100 years old.   By the way, since the inception of the unfederal federal reserve in 1913, the US dollar has lost over 97 percent of its purchasing power.


Only 3 percent to go....



Sat, 12/11/2010 - 21:18 | 799449 delacroix
delacroix's picture

no worries, they only cost 2 cents to print

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 07:56 | 799905 Bolweevil
Bolweevil's picture

And 2 years for the record.

Mon, 12/13/2010 - 08:24 | 801215 XPolemic
XPolemic's picture

Now, here is a little assignment. Find ONE FIAT currency that is over 100 years old.


Sat, 12/11/2010 - 19:10 | 799286 SRV - ES339
SRV - ES339's picture

They were very transparent about the conflict... and the video was great. There are more than enough obvious villains in this mess... why go after these guys?

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 23:38 | 799607 Midwest Prepper
Midwest Prepper's picture

With respect, your rationale is very flawed.  By that logic, anyone who is going to sell you anything has a conflict of interest if they tell you that it has value...

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 15:36 | 798932 RobotTrader
RobotTrader's picture

Silver is probably going to keep going up as long as the positive trend in the NY Composite continues.

Rising tide lifts all boats.

And virtually all the boys on "Fast Money" the last two days have been aggressively shorting silver.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 15:43 | 798941 Arius
Arius's picture

i liked that Britannia silver israeli paper had an article claiming JPM is short 3.3 billion silver...just claims i guess no hard proves...

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 15:45 | 798944 Biggus Dickus Jr.
Biggus Dickus Jr.'s picture

Hey guys its junior here. I sure hope the fast money guys are right this time. I am still short silver but this is making me awfully nervous.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 16:23 | 798998 SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

You may want to consider a name change.  If you wait to cover your short, you'll be known as Littlus Dickus and if you hold your position for a longer period of time, you'll be known as No Dickus.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 18:05 | 799171 Arius
Arius's picture

ahhh..just double will feel better and thank blythe and larry summers if they still have the jobs :-)

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 15:49 | 798950 Tortfeasor
Tortfeasor's picture

Any attempt to correlate gold & silver to an indicator other than money supply/velocity is just a waste of electrons.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 15:57 | 798967 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

Hey Robo, not that I think you should care, but I thought the above was 'good' market commentary - you laid out a thesis, not even a prediction and had a decent time frame chart. And then a little aside about the fast money boyz. Whether I agree or disagree with it, it was a reasoned opinion. 

I think this is what your comments used to be more like (though I wasn't here in the beginning), and then you got flamed so much that you started to egg people on a bit with a bit more fluff then commentary, and even poked people a bit with the pop of the day (that may or may not have been within context). 

Again, not suggesting that you should care what I think. 


p.s. I think silver might have some downside if the market turns a bit lower, but ultimately the physical commodities will decouple as people reach for non-fiat investments. The supply of physical silver has declined dramatically at my local coin shops (top 25 metro area). I don't think I will able to time the bottom, so I'm dollar-cost averaging. 

Max Kaiser coin for sale today, but I had some trouble ordering, so I think they have some kinks to work out...


Sat, 12/11/2010 - 16:16 | 798987 Careless Whisper
Careless Whisper's picture

buying physical silver is more of a political/monitary position than an investment.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 16:22 | 798997 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

Yes, I am in the process of removing my consent from the Ponzi. 

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 17:00 | 799065 chopper read
chopper read's picture

STRIKE BACK AGAINST OUR SHADOW GOVERNMENT: Since elite board members at JP Morgan likely help to chose our very own Presidential candidates in America, leaving themselves happy with either "choice", we would be much BETTER-represented by voting with a silver dollar purchase TODAY helping to end this reign of terror from the International Banking Cartel. FEEL FREE TO VOTE AS OFTEN AS YOU LIKE! :) Feel good about the silver bullet you will be placing in the heart of all that is wrong with the Anglo-American banking system.

Be a part of something big. A single one-ounce silver coin costs only $32. GET SOME. :)

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 17:10 | 799085 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

Yes. I carry a silver Maple with me wherever I go and try to strike up a conversation when it seems appropriate. When appreciated and agreed upon, I might even tip a server with the coin (if it makes sense given the amount of the bill). All my Christmas presents will be silver coins.

I've cancelled all my credit cards. I pay by Money Order when possible (US Postal MO's are true government fiat). I drained my TBTF bank accounts and have a small checking account at a local bank.

It's still a work in progress. My goal for 2011, among other things, is to take ownership of my strawman, and maybe even transact all business in PM's. 

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 17:30 | 799115 Kali
Kali's picture

good job!  Have done the same over the last 2 or 3 years, seems to be keeping me afloat.  Wish I could get more of my clients on board.  Not even a one takes me up on the "paying with gold/silver" thing.  Nor do my vendors.  That is the only sticking point I have anymore other than having to pay taxes.  That may go soon too :)

Mon, 12/13/2010 - 00:22 | 800971 arizona11912
arizona11912's picture

Hi Traderjoe,


Is there any reliable resources for taking back your strawman? I've done some preliminary research but its seems like a lof the sites I've visited are speaking of half truths....

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 18:32 | 799228 spinone
spinone's picture

Buying physical siver is going short dollars.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 19:35 | 799321 SRV - ES339
SRV - ES339's picture

Bingo... well said!

I recently made a large silver bullion purchase, and knowing the Fast Money guys are going short gives me a very warm and fuzzy feeling.

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 12:08 | 800066 jimgcpa
jimgcpa's picture

 Buying stocks is going short dollars too. 

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 16:58 | 799061 boricuadigm-shift
boricuadigm-shift's picture

Yep.  Invalid "Shipping Method" when there is no method to select.


A lot of people complained in the site.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 17:03 | 799070 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

It's too bad he/they picked the Northwest Territorial Mint to produce the round. I had to contact my state's AG to collect from them a rather large order in 2010. They have a consent decree with the AG for past shipping and cancelation issues. I will never do direct business with them again (though it seems possible they are really in charge of this). It's one shady business. Regular delivery times stretch into the 2-3 months (APMEX at 2-3 days if in stock). That's a lot of float for the owner, and a lot of worry for the customer. 

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 17:40 | 799127 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Happened to me this summer on a monster box of maples. Kept telling me it would be 30 more days. Eventually, got it 3 1/2 months later. Their business model seems to be to take your money and wait for a drop in the spot and find their profit. Unfortunately, the price has not been their friend over the last 6 months. 

I suggest Apmex or Tulving.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 17:42 | 799131 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

Do you like Tulving? They have good prices, but the web has some bad customer stories about them... After my experience with NWTM, I've been gun-shy to try another vendor besides APMEX.  

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 17:51 | 799147 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

I only wish they sold in smaller quantities.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 19:56 | 799351 unum mountaineer
unum mountaineer's picture

exactly, that shit makes me nervous. alot can happen in 6-8 weeks. wtf. simple price comparison with lets say apmex is all i need to make a decision.  but its another option if in a bind...but again, 6-8 weeks. i want my order asap.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 20:15 | 799372 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

I had several large orders with NWTM in 2006 and 2007 and it took 2.5 months to get either.  Same deal with me, no more business from me.  Colorado Gold shipped me my order a few months ago in 1 week but I paid with wire transfer

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 20:15 | 799373 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

I had several large orders with NWTM in 2006 and 2007 and it took 2.5 months to get either.  Same deal with me, no more business from me.  Colorado Gold shipped me my order a few months ago in 1 week but I paid with wire transfer

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 04:41 | 799826 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

Try Gainsville Coin. If you are within driving distance pay by wire transfer and go get it. Monster boxes and gold eagles within two days on my last purchase when silver was ~ $17, gold ~ $1,100.

Pleasant to deal with and no bs. For central Floridians it's the place. It's a place that takes an interest in the individual and when you arrive your order is ready to go.

It's worth a drive just to admire their show room....lot's of interesting items in addition to the regular Krands, Eagles, Maples, etc.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 18:05 | 799170 littlebuddy
littlebuddy's picture this has happened across the board, apparently...did you save your order in your cart?

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 06:35 | 799828 Thanatos
Thanatos's picture

I had a recent 50oz purchase with NWTM go off with no probs. but that isn't a monster box!

That guy had the patientice of a saint. Man. Don't run off with my 25K... I won't wait 15 minutes to come looking much less 3 1/2 months.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 16:37 | 799025 bbtrader
bbtrader's picture

The other day you said the FM clowns went short the market into the close of the reversal day on Tuesday, even though during the lunch hour that same day they said to buy the close.  So as of Friday their short is losing.  You give way too much credit to those clowns.  Sometimes I think the only trading strategy these phonies have is to say they traded this way or that way after the market moved.$SPX&p=D&yr=1&mn=0&dy=0&id=p50680933763&a=217012068

NYSE NHNL Index not following this short squeeze (and let's face it, this rally is primarily a squeeze), and the 20-day moving average of the total put-call ratio is at 0.8, same as it was in April.  The smart money isn't hedging much at the moment.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 17:12 | 799088 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

I read his comment that he was considering the FM traders as a contrary indicator. 

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 18:06 | 799172 TexDenim
TexDenim's picture

With the CNBC crowd, you must do as they do and not as they say. If they SAY they are short silver, that means they are LONG.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 19:09 | 799285 rocker
rocker's picture

Way to go Tex. It is really that easy. They do it all the time. Even the Gman got into this cry.

Garty will never tell you his hand unless you pay your 400 bucks for his newletter where he still holds his nose.

Sun, 12/12/2010 - 12:17 | 800074 bbtrader
bbtrader's picture

Wow, they SAY they are short silver, but they ARE actually long.  That sucks for them because I just looked at my model and it is telling me the better near-term trade for silver is on the short side.  And my model is simple and reliable - buy*low*sell*high - and right now, prices are high amid weakening momentum.  At least, buy at $25 than at current levels.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 15:47 | 798942 Dr. Sandi
Dr. Sandi's picture

Judging from CFTC Commissioner Bart Chilton's comments, I have to assume he's planning to hang himself in his New York apartment in the next couple of weeks.

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 17:47 | 799138 thetruth
thetruth's picture

it wouldn't be the first time.  or the last

Sat, 12/11/2010 - 15:46 | 798945 reefermadness
reefermadness's picture

get physical, ETF fine print is gonna get you, satan get you, hells bells.

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