The Dumping Begins: Chinese Reserve Managers Notified That Any Non-USG Guaranteed Securities Must Be Divested

It appears that this time China's posturing is for real. Following up on our earlier post that Chinese military officials want to "punish" America by selling Treasuries, Asia Times Online is reporting that an explicit directive by the Chinese government has notified reserve managers to sell all risky US assets, including asset backed and corporates, and just hold on to explicitly guaranteed Treasuries and Agency debt. And from following TIC data we know that China's enthusiasm for MBS/Agencies over the past year has been matched solely by that of one Bill Gross.
From Asia Times:
Dollar-denominated risk assets, including asset-backed securities and corporates, are no longer wanted at the State Administration of Foreign Exchange (SAFE), nor at China’s large commercial banks. The Chinese government has ordered its reserve managers to divest itself of riskier securities and hold only Treasuries and US agency debt with an implicit or explicit government guarantee. This already has been communicated to American securities dealers, according to market participants with direct knowledge of the events.
It is not clear whether China’s motive is simple risk aversion in the wake of a sharp widening of corporate and mortgage spreads during the past two weeks, or whether there also is a political dimension. With the expected termination of the Federal Reserve’s special facility to purchase mortgage-backed securities next month, some asset-backed spreads already have blown out, and the Chinese institutions may simply be trying to get out of the way of a widening. There is some speculation that China’s action has to do with the recent deterioration of US-Chinese relations over arm sales to Taiwan and other issues. That would be an unusual action for the Chinese to take–Beijing does not mix investment and strategic policy–and would be hard to substantiate in any event.
Furthermore, demonstrating just how seriously China is approaching a populist-driven adversarial stance with the US, was earlier speculation that instead of unpegging its currency (a move much desired by the US administration in its goal to further weaken the dollar and make China less competitive in the export market), China would reduce its trade balance not by the traditional way of currency inflation, but by the economic textbook footnote approach of raising salaries.
Higher labor costs would cut Chinese export competitiveness while boosting domestic spending power and sustaining economic growth, according to the bank. Premier Wen Jiabao’s government has been pressed by U.S. and European officials to end a 19- month yuan peg to the dollar to help diminish trade and investment imbalances that contributed to the credit crisis.
“Wage increases are a better option because they largely benefit Chinese workers,” Tao Dong, a Credit Suisse economist in Hong Kong who has covered the Chinese and Asian economies for more than 15 years, said in an interview yesterday. “Currency appreciation will only result in Chinese exporters losing out to competitors in countries such as Malaysia and Mexico.”
The strategy may limit gains in the yuan to 3 percent this year, according to Tao. This month’s 13 percent increase in minimum wage in eastern China’s Jiangsu province indicates that higher pay will play an important role in officials’ efforts to rebalance growth in the fastest-growing major economy, Tao said.
The wage decision “argues against a large one-off yuan revaluation,” Ben Simpfendorfer, an economist with Royal Bank of Scotland in Hong Kong, wrote in a note this week.
One thing is certain - China will now focus on doing precisely the opposite of what America would urge Chinese authorities to do, in order to establish itself as the focal point of negotiating leverage and increasingly humiliate the Obama regime. If this involves selling USTs or corporates (both fixed income and equities) so be it. This is further confirmed by carefully worded disclosure in today's copy of China Securities Journal:
The China Securities Journal, a government-backed daily, accused the U.S. in a tough-worded front page editorial of playing the "exchange rate card."
It said that, just as China didn't interfere with Federal Reserve purchases of U.S. Treasuries, "the U.S. has no right to interfere in China's exchange rate policy."
"Whether or not to appreciate is our own business," the newspaper said.
"Whether it will appreciate, when and by how much is an integral part of China's monetary policy."
It is not clear when the asset divestiture directive takes place or if it is already being enforced. Juding by the afterhours action in futures and the currency markets, some dumping may already be taking place. Alternatively, we now know just who it is that sell into every rally (yes, even in this market, every buyer is matched with a seller).
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on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:05
#224410
Must be the big sell-off.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:06
#224413
And so it begins.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:42
#224443
Historians writing about this in the future HAVE to include the two feet of snow on the ground in Washington DC. It makes for a perfect setting for a world crisis.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:29
#224515
I'm skeptical about the news article. Had the Chinese actually notified US securities dealers to this effect as it claims, S&P E-Mini would be tanking as the price of borrowing money by corporations would be expected to rise a lot. It has drifted a little lower in the last seven hours.
on Mon, 02/15/2010 - 01:00
#231191
That's a solid point. There has been no major fluctuation in the market to indicate the reality of a Chinese divestment of U.S. assests. Although, if ever they do decide to enforce harsh polices like the one cited in the article there would obviously be a significant hemorrhaging of the financial system here at home.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:09
#224414
We may now witnessing the opening salvos of economic warefare.
This can only end in tears.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:06
#224482
This can only end in tears.
thats why gold is attractive.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 16:47
#225612
Yeah, gold is fabulously awesome... when you're hungry and cold. Because it's so good at providing you shelter and it tastes great with some butter and salt.
Oh right. Gold is only worth something if there are people who have the disposable income to buy it or the resources to use it for something. But good luck feeding yourself with your stockpile of it when everything tanks.
Want to know what's REALLY worth something in a real crisis? Food, drinking water, shelter, guns and bullets, and knowledge. That's it.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 19:09
#225867
I am in agreement with your security in Gun's & Butter {so to speak} can you tell me how this will effect me in real terms, rather than the eco-gobblety-gook that mean little or nothing , unless in laymens terms. Regards, Donald Hinthorne@yahoo.com
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 01:08
#224598
good!
And I hope it includes India, because they've been way too far under the radar considering how many jobs they received from us.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:46
#226915
Who sent the jobs there....of course the Americans...jobs cannot be taken forcefully. You do not seem to be very well informed.
Why Did You not keep your jobs? Ask your Corporations.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:49
#226927
Who sent the jobs there....of course the Americans...jobs cannot be taken forcefully. You do not seem to be very well informed.
Why Did You not keep your jobs? Ask your Corporations.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 11:55
#225056
Delicious golden tears, for those well prepared.
Golden shower for those not prepared.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:08
#224415
Glad to see they act finally
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 04:11
#224663
On the edge of oblivion
A ship of fools sailing on
Rip it up... move down
Rip it up... move it down to the ground
Across the nation, around the world
Everybody WANG CHUNG TONIGHT!!
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:16
#224420
Is Goldilox/Cramer going to redefine BRIC out of spite?
I mean de-acronymize or whatever.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:16
#224423
So, how much cashola are we talking about here? Eh?
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:18
#224428
BTW, looks like insiders are back to selling as fast as they can.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:19
#224431
They are up to their eyeballs in Freddie/Fannie/Farmer-ie.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:22
#224433
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Hey, doesn't Da Fed have a metric crapton of that on their balance sheet too?
What could possibly go wrong?
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:25
#224436
We will start finding out tomorrow morning. when the markets open.
They're going to start a stampede in asset backed securities.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:16
#224424
It's funny. I still often try to educate the drones on yahoo message boards that not all shit goes up, even with good cooked books. They never listen.
The movie "The Road" was interesting. I suspect these same idiots will be killing humans for food.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:22
#224434
Why even bother posting there? They can't be educated.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 09:31
#224813
Right, with a name like 'Putbuyer' you should be posting here anyway - where the prevailing belief is that all markets HAVE to go down all the time, and when they don't actually go down it is solely due to "stupidity"/"book-cooking"/"PPT"/"Federal Reserve". ANYTHING but ACTUAL MARKET ACTIVITY which would just be way too confusing.
Don't bother putting any contrarian/optimistic info on here either - ask Leo about how immature these boards can be with contrarian information.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 11:19
#225001
Whaaaaaa! I want to go back in time to 1997!
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 12:58
#225134
YEAH! GO US GOV! WOOHOO ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP!
idiot.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:17
#224426
Easy fix. Offset dump by an FR monetization pump followed by sales of F18's to the Dalai Lama.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:26
#224437
I'm sure the Lama is getting his F-18's from the Chinese. It's 14% off all flying objects for Valentines day week.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:26
#224438
HAHAHA!!!
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 00:21
#224567
ROTFL! I love it.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 10:37
#224918
The Dalai Lama. I never saw that painting.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:18
#224429
bounced at 1063.00 @21:41EST.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:19
#224430
hory sheet
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:28
#224439
Well, when you're the last man standing with cash, as Buffett says. Are they devious enough to destroy US and Europe financially? Hell, why not, they'd just buy commodities on the pennies for the future versus paying on the dollars. The sad thing is they could do it, heck, they got enough real estate for 15 years.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:08
#224485
The middle kingdom was always very self-sure, self-centered, and self-sufficient. It was always the barbarians that brought tribute to them. Their culture reigned supreme. Western trade wanted their porcelains, their lacquerware, teas, spices, silks, ornate hand carvings, jade. They wanted gold and silver. Early western fortunes were made on the Chinese exports. Like selling beads to Indians. Except the grubby uncivilized group was the Europeans.
China only opened to global trade upon force, and then by desperation to rebuild. Now that they have sufficiently mastered the engineering techniques and scientific method of the west (and now that the West is totally broke), they will shut the borders and concentrate on a renewed kingdom.
Funny thing that. We NEED them. They really don't need the West. They have goods, production, a surfeit of savings. Time to dump the presumptuous round-eyes. China's the future. The west will be internecine warfare and bickering about the rapidly dwindling remainders of a once-great set of nations.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 11:35
#225030
Thank you!
It is good to see someone who actually knows what is going on with China. 9 times out of 10 people will say "China needs the U.S. to buy its stuff" but that frame of logic is based off of lack of knowledge.
Since when did a population of 1 billion need a population of 330 million to buy its goods when the smaller population doesn't have any money? Thinking in smaller terms, could you imagine 3 people building goods all to sell to 1 person and that 1 person has nothing to offer in return for those goods?
Unfortunately there is only a small list of possible outcomes from this scenario.
1- The U.S. goes into protectionism mode (which it is already starting to do by imposing tariffs on imported goods)- Worst possible idea as it is too late to do so.
2- The U.S. pays off its debts by selling away resources (land, oil access rights, fisheries rights etc)- Possible but not probable. I don't see the citizens of the U.S. going for this, but who knows, I've heard toll roads/bridges are already being sold to foreign companies to manage.
3- The U.S. imposes inflation to be competitive on a global scale in terms of manufacturing and real goods production. - This would anger anyone who currently holds American debt as it would lose its value tremendously. Also it would anger U.S. citizens who would not want to work for pennies a day to be competitive with china's manufacturing.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:34
#224444
A lot of ZH regulars think the dollar is shit. Well, gold sinks and shit floats. That's life.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 00:37
#224574
I often hear this, but whenever I'm done and I look, it's at the bottom of the bowl. It never floats.
I must have some heavy shit, man.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 00:48
#224582
I'm sure the Chinese had something to do with it... who knows how much Pb is in the Chinese version of Yellow No.5....
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 00:59
#224588
I know this is off topic but, I as a nutritionist I will tell you that a healthy fesses will float not sink. Most likely too much meat in your diet needs more fiber from fruits and vegetables.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 11:21
#225009
Better get on that puffed wheat diet..........................................or sink
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 01:37
#224621
I think it means you are a healthy eater. If you eat junk food, greasey food, your poop will float. At least, that's my understanding, but I'm not a poop expert, although I've been told I'm full of it more frequently than I would like.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 05:45
#224692
Shit only floats if you eat enough roughage
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 05:48
#224693
Shit only floats if you eat enough roughage.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 07:02
#224711
Ducks and witches float- must mean they weigh the same and are both made of wood. Burn the witch!
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 11:15
#224994
Hahaha!
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:34
#224445
China trade balance +$14.2B vs fcast +19,2
let's see about that bounce...
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:35
#224446
'Nuf Said
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
--Sun Tsu
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:35
#224447
meanwhile S&P futures say, "Pthh.. whatever.. China doesn't have the balls.. " they are off 7..
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 04:10
#224662
The Chinese don't bluff - hard to save face...
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:35
#224448
Vulcan's never bluff
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:36
#224449
I hope they stick it to the usa banks good with a boycott of crap securities.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:36
#224450
Got TBT?
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:37
#224451
this interesting.....on the one hand fuck communist china....the decision to sell arms to the taiwanese was the correct decision.....
yet i am not sure that this selling of assets is not but a clever way to allow obama to abandon the taiwanese because the communists made him do it....indeed usa financial considerations are grave matters of state and security thus we must dump the taiwanese for state security....
on the other hand, if fake president obama has made a principled decision to support the taiwanese it could expose usa financial and state weakness and demonstrates once again the follies of becoming dependent upon adversarial foreign states....selling your jewels and soul for a quick economic fix is not brilliant statecraft to put it mildly....
but obama has put himself in the position of being humiliated especially if he caves in and cancels the arms sales....
i don't know what the desired outcome here is: 1. dump taiwan 2. stand up to communist china....
usually the usa bends to communist countries because the plutocrats have established the communist and totalitarian governments....and a lot of the times the tension is just a game behind the scenes - fake war - like the fake permawar on terror.....
if obama stays the course (quite doubtful) it should serve as a wakeup call for the usa to puts house in order....
not sure how harmful this selling would be. something to watch....how much does china really have of the types of securities it wants to sell?
taiwan should remain free.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:37
#224521
the thing that really irritates me is the Dalai Lama thing...Taiwan should be free, but I can see any country having concerns about someone selling arms to a nearby neighbor that is a concern to them..but Dalai Lama simply advocates that Tibet be treated in accordance to Chinese constitution, DL has not fomented violent rebellion. That like us retaliating if Chinese visited with someone advocating not for Hawaii independence but Hawaii to be treated as more independent than a state per some such pre-existing status in our constitution....so we would cut off China if they met with peaceful radical advocating a legal method of changing our relationship with Hawaii...what evah, I'm tired of US, everyone being scared of China in this regard.
And wasn't Reagan credited with taking out USSR by talking tough to them?
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 03:12
#224645
Are you kidding me? Go and tour the US to tell that the Indians should be able to contract whatever alliance they want as they are sovereign people. You wont last long.
Even Haitians have tasted for more than 200 hundreds years the issue of living on a strategical platform off the US coasts.
Painting the US as they are not does not help.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 14:55
#225364
Seriously, if China or Venezuela invited an indigenous US leader that was advocating for more mineral rights, more independence via legal, constitutional methods for his tribe, say he/she had a case winding its way to SCOTUS, do you think US would start making big economic threats about someone else meeting with said leader..say Hawaiin leader was asking Hawaii have a more independent status like psuedo sovereign nation status of Indian reservations but was doing it in legal, civil political manner, making a constitutional argument, or if it was a Puerto Rican leader or Guam leader, really you see US going China/DL on this?...While a US admin might talk against this movement, resist the change in status, I have a hard time seeing how even more hardline US admins like Reagan or W's starting financial trade wars over the China meeting with such a person.
Don't get me wrong, I have huge critiques about bad things US does, and no doubt we politically and economically mess with people who have done small things...shoot look at the horrors of our actions in Nicaragua, Guatemala, and what, are there even 5 million people in either those countries? What real threat were they to us other than diminishing profits for some multi-national?
But just as US is wrong in many things, just as we are oversensitive, too protective about many things, (see Israel), so is China...
tyranny and imperialism abound...
not trying to say or even figure out which is country/regimes are worse, but DL is no where near as radical as, say, Arafat was, as he was willing to be violent, call for Israel to be wiped out...not quite DL talking points, and yet China bristles...get over it...
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 15:45
#225507
the utter chaos created in developing the panama canal.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 08:45
#224749
So I jump ship in Hong Kong and make my way over to Tibet, and I get on as a looper at a course over in the Himalayas. A looper, you know, a caddy, a looper, a jock. So, I tell them I'm a pro jock, and who do you think they give me? The Dalai Lama, himself. Twelfth son of the Lama. The flowing robes, the grace, bald... striking. So, I'm on the first tee with him. I give him the driver. He hauls off and whacks one - big hitter, the Lama - long, into a ten-thousand foot crevasse, right at the base of this glacier. Do you know what the Lama says? Gunga galunga... gunga, gunga-galunga. So we finish the 18th and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice."
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 16:05
#225533
man i would love to play golf with his holiness. i even have a pre 1990 ping eye 2 wedge.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 02:17
#226359
Zero Hedge theme night...I'll take "Bill Murray movies" for 200, Alex.
You're a lot of woman, you know that? Yeah, wanna make 14 dollars the hard way?
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:46
#224530
Sounds like the Chinese are administrating the medicine the Greeks could use a mouthful of.
This is good news in disguise
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 04:35
#224667
Without researching it, there has been chatter here and elsewhere that the "arms sales" to the Taiwanese are no surprise to the Chinese, and that they were already well underway in the prior (what was that guy's name) Administration. Meaning, not sure you can cast stones on Obama for this one, and the Chinese are simply being the Chinese. Why hang on to these soon to be underwater Fannies etc.? They are reacting to the end of the QE road, as announced, and agree with Bill Gross, apparently. Sure, implementing this now helps them vent some steam from some anti-US factions but it is the right move anyway. Why take a bigger loss? Time to get out of everything but dollars and USTs.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 14:51
#225365
My thoughts exactly. Arms sales is an excuse. There's no way the Chinese would telegraph a move like this if it hinted that they actually see the growing cracks in this growth facade. They're gonna get out while the getting's good and they're gonna save all the face they can doing it.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:38
#224452
and bounced again at 1062.75 @ 22:30EST
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:40
#224453
Time to dump Chinese assets.
Also time to boycott Chinese products.
They want financial war? We give them financial war.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:45
#224461
Brilliant! So then what will become of the ZeroHedge 'Store'?
http://www.cafepress.com/zerohedge
No more cups and stuff?
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:12
#224496
As long as the thongs are still made in the USA...
http://www.cafepress.com/zerohedge.419236014
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:36
#224520
hahahahah
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:48
#224536
Oh, they'll still be available. You'll have to pay for them in Gold, though.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 09:24
#224801
We can live without the junk...
(sorry zh)
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:40
#224455
Resistance is futile. We are the Borg.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:43
#224458
hahaha, China is so powerless yet they masquerade is being so powerful. As Chanos said, they send us stuff and we send them paper- the situation is clearly not ideal for either party but if they want to stop buying our paper assets we will stop buying their stuff. We can easily cut back 20% on their stuff but they can't take a 20% reduction in demand for their exports. Such a situation would mean a painful but manageable recession/depression for us and probably a revolution for them as their urban centers will be full of angry, unemployed former rural farmworkers.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:53
#224544
>they send us stuff and we send them paper<
If it were that simple, the Chinese govt could simply have one half of China dig a hole and the other half fill it in. (Which would have the added benefit of making the Keynesians here happy. At least the ones making Goldman Sachs type wages who can afford stuff not made in China.)
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 00:13
#224558
Yeah I'm on that camp...in the end, in a game of stamina, the US would win out.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 00:38
#224575
Cutting back on buying their stuff would probably be good for the USA. That means (gasp) we'd actually have to produce something here in the States...
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 05:35
#224688
In terms of producing things...
1:) Do you think that will happen? No.
2:) Who are we going to borrow money from to
make all sorts of new industry/factories? Ooops.
3:) Do you think Asia will let us get
our industry back? Hahaha.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 07:44
#224723
Not sure if Americans are ready to fill their shopping cart only part way, or buy something they actually need and not due to their wants. Workers over here complain if they don't get 5 weeks paid vacation, sick days, health care, dental, club memberships.....etc. All that combined with gov intervention in our business operations, how can we make stuff over here and keep costs at a level where American's will be able to "Save Money.....Live Better". Unless a company is defense related or is deeply in debt, I don't see how they will survive by producing products for our QVC shoppers. I am a small busness owner and am amazed how many sick days, vacation days and holidays friends have off that work at regular jobs. We are fat and lazy and don't want to give up our shopping desires.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 08:16
#224736
Ever stop to think that while your friends aren't at the office during their sick days, vacation days & holidays, that maybe, just maybe, they're out doing their own thing making money -- *not* via their main source of income?
Well, maybe not your friends. But I assure you, there are people out there who use their free time to produce some side income.
To be honest, you sound a bit jealous of your friends, and using that jealousy to justify casting a wide net and erroneously stereotyping Americans.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 01:05
#224594
Exactly correct, Yossarian. If push comes to shove and the US simply shuts down trade with China we will get a little poorer, if that is possible. But China collapses without the U.S. export market. At the end of the day China will be sitting there with a bunch of empty factories. We'll build new ones in Vietnam, Thailand, or maybe ever here!
Sell, China, sell.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 03:16
#224648
Another one. Funny. On black Fridays, people die to buy those chinese junk goods. Can China do without USD? It will be difficult as they will need to convert Huan on a world stage. Can the US live without chinese made goods? Even more difficult. Chinese low cost goods are what holds the US society together. Already, there is a growing frustration over the matter of jobs. Now if people are cut from being able to afford to buy stuff, prepare the ammo.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 05:30
#224682
Do you think the largest USA company, Wal-Mart,
wants to see that happen? Probably not.
Yeah, yeah, but if it did, it would be better
for our economy. Well, tell that to the Wal-Mart
lobbyists.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 05:30
#224683
Do you think the largest USA company, Wal-Mart,
wants to see that happen? Probably not.
Yeah, yeah, but if it did, it would be better
for our economy. Well, tell that to the Wal-Mart
lobbyists.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 05:33
#224686
Do you think the largest USA company, Wal-Mart,
wants to see that happen? Probably not.
Yeah, yeah, but if it did, it would be better
for our economy. Well, tell that to the Wal-Mart
lobbyists.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 05:33
#224687
Do you think the largest USA company, Wal-Mart,
wants to see that happen? Probably not.
Yeah, yeah, but if it did, it would be better
for our economy. Well, tell that to the Wal-Mart
lobbyists.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 11:31
#225025
I repeat myself when under stress
on Sat, 02/13/2010 - 05:22
#229680
Really? Look around you. Practically EVERYTHING we buy comes from China now. If they turn off the consumer goods spigot then what the hell are we going to do? We barely have a domestic manufacturing base anymore. It took decades to dismantle our manufacturing capacity and it will take a hell of a long time to build it back up again. In the meantime, can we really go without clothes, electronics, toothpaste, and millions of other mundane consumer items we take for granted every day? As for the Chinese, having a surplus of consumer goods on their hands due to reduced American demand hardly seems like a problem. They'll find ways consume any surplus themselves - the proposed increase in Chinese wages is a perfect example of how this would come about. Don't kid yourself: we need their stuff a lot more than they need the U.S as an export market.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:45
#224459
Do you blame them? Who the fuck would want to hold on to these cheezy, Foul, Shit smelling, Stanky, Corrupt, low grade timebombs anyway? These are time bombs ready to go BOOM!!
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:45
#224460
When do we get to stop being the bitch in this relationship?
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:52
#224467
Never.
Buy China, Sell America, Euro, Etc. One the "relief" of whatever keeps Greece afloat for a few more years is.. If that..
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:31
#224518
Soon--we're reaching a jobs calamity of our own!
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:10
#224488
depends on what you mean. so long as were the reserve currency we get to send paper to countries for commodities and finished goods. those holding ever more worthless bits of paper that the US 'guaranteed' to pay, but not its value, are the ones who are the bitch.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:46
#224463
So why is gold still going sideways?
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:49
#224464
It seems to me the Obamanauts were talking to their Commie financiers about this very thing for some time before this announcement. Doesn't the explanation for the sudden "explicit guarantee" of all things Fan&Fred on Xmas Eve suddenly snap into place? And the commission to reduce the deficit, by Exec Order if necessary? A whole new kind of bipartisanship.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 02:13
#224632
Hmm
1 +
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 07:29
#224717
We have probably already seen the implementation of this policy for some time. Why show your cards until you must?
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 07:45
#224724
And yet Fannie and Freddie remain off-balance sheet, despite the xmas eve pronouncement.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 11:04
#224978
Let's not go bringing the farcical deficit commission into any serious discussion here. That was a Republican idea, and as soon as Congress actually put it up for action, they turned it down (because if Democrats support it, they're against it).
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:51
#224465
The Chinese advantage in a trade war; their population is much more able to withstand the turmoil. America is a nation of soft, spoiled whiners.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:56
#224471
No doubt they're tough. But as far as population is concerned, our very softness probably means that in terms of total mass, we're probably pretty close, even if they have 4 times as many (normal sized) people. Thus, we can get through it through liposuction, using the blubber to light the street lamps.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:02
#224476
That's the entrepreneurial spirit!
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:03
#224478
screw them. screw the usa maggots too.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:14
#224498
Yeah. A hard American is one who goes three full hours without a happy meal. Americans really are pathetic when called upon for real sacrifice.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 11:36
#225034
And your nationality (oh mighty hard one) would be???
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 19:23
#225892
you must be French
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:54
#224469
This does not end nicely for the United States.
They can destroy us via our currency.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 01:00
#224590
WTF are you talking about? How much do they have... $2T? Pffft! Ben can print these in an afternoon...not to mention that the rich guys in the middle east will be pretty pissed off if their USD denominated assets go down just because some Chinese general felt insecure about his underinflated undies.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 12:43
#225115
US$2 trillion printed in an afternoon? More like 45 seconds. You need to update a lot of databases, but these computer thingie are pretty freaking fast these days.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:56
#224470
I was guessing it would be 2011, looks like 2010 is gonna be the beginning of the end now. =\ Im ready, bring it on. Much thanx to ZH and originally Chris Martenson for the wakeup call.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:01
#224475
zh gets the scoop, again.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:27
#224510
indeed.... rock on, TD.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVaLE4TTbwI
Businessinsider.com is crediting ZH
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-dumping-begins-chinese-reserve-managers-notified-that-any-non-usg-guaranteed-securities-must-be-divested-2010-2
as is Phil's StockWorld
http://www.philstockworld.com/2010/02/09/the-dumping-begins-chinese-reserve-managers-notified-that-any-nonusg-guaranteed-securities-must-be-divested/
and Global Perspectives
http://www.globalperspectives.info/our-perspective-blog/470-chinese-reserve-managers-notified-that-any-non-usg-guaranteed-securities-must-be-divested-zh
"and where do we go from here?"
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:02
#224477
Interesting how things could unravel just because of a arms sale. Obviously there are other factors involved that have created tension between the two nations. This could be the spark that begins to deteriorate relations between the two nations.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:07
#224483
They're just a bunch of retarded backasswards rice farmers. Denninger said so.
No big deal.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:11
#224493
Ah! Ignorant prejudice the bastion of self-delusion. The chinese will be telling their children to eat because starving miscegenated and blundering westerners can't.
Although they may be eating each other.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:08
#224484
Wow ... leave it to the unscrewable Chinese to be the first one out
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:12
#224495
Why can they wait after Chinese New Year?
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:17
#224500
Weekly Geopolitical News and Analysis100208: Simultaneous military, G7 and BIS summits point to something big
Major world changes are clearly close on the horizon. This past weekend saw a G7 Finance Minister’s summit near the North pole, a BIS central bank governor’s summit in Australia and a gathering of the world’s military leaders in Germany.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:21
#224504
I demand a new 10 minute youtube video from walstreetpro2!!!!
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:24
#224507
where's Leo, there has to be somethign bullish about this...
and where's combustible assets, that burning bag head always seem so appropriate for posts like this
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:27
#224512
Following up on our earlier post that Chinese military officials want to "punish" America by selling Treasuries
Uh, this explicitly states they're continuing to hold Treasuries.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:29
#224514
Did they not just confess to owning a crapload of US equities, something like $9 billion? It seems ALL Chinese economic decisions are political.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 11:14
#224992
And politics is war by 'other means'....
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:31
#224517
The House always wins.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:35
#224519
Asia Times Online may not be correct in its reporting. Why would the Chinese--or any seller--let its intent be known? And if ATol "knows" that these sales are on the horizon, why aren't investors in Shanghai or in Hong Kong bailing out of dollars right now?
There's a wonderful expression in Shanghainese which basically translates into "stir the pot." It's used just in such circumstances to confuse your negotiating party. China may sell but not today.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:57
#224546
Shit is always-already-fully valued. Who is going to buy this stuff, thought it was toxic? No buyer no sale only huff and puff.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 00:14
#224559
Why now ... GS will surely take it up another 10 SPY pts
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 00:31
#224570
yes the source seems questionable
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 01:20
#224607
They let it be known because it gets their political position across without ambiguity and because they are hedged against the drop.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:38
#224523
Just personally speaking if I wanted to sell something I don't want at its best price, I wouldn't run around saying I think its crap and intend to sell boat loads of it. These Chinese must be damn clever.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:39
#224526
RK had it right. "Here lies the man that tried to hustle the East."
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:48
#224531
You mean raising wages can work? Who knew?
Obama sure got some bad advice, like just about everything since at least june 2008.
These are interesting times my friends, watch and learn, I know I will.
Well the Chinese hoped in Obama as much as we did. You could say the left is hating him, the right obviously does, the independents have abandoned him, the Chinese have lost hope, along with most of the rest of the world, and the bankers ran circles around him. Gee I wonder if any of those are linked? Effects meet the cause.
Yeah Obama, to the Chinese you were our last hope (I suspect). Once you re-started the Bush tactics of American Bullschmidt all over again, that hope faded (I suspect). Now they will protect their interests the best way they can as they now know a real solution will not appear from Obama, and I suspect the Chinese reaction to that fact will be very bad for us.
It seems soon will be the time to choose, the right way of placing the blame where it lies, the system, and those who run it and change to something better.......or......blame each other, the poor, the sick and lazy who had nothing to do with causing this crisis.
Because that my dear friends was the difference between the American Revolution, and the French Revolution.
In our version, cooler heads prevailed
In theirs, heads were cooler because they rolled detached from bodies
I'm optimistic to how we turn out, but we must admit to ourselves we're far closer due to ignorance to the latter (french revolution) than to our more desirable American Revolution.
Imperialist Monetarism MUST end
Good luck
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 07:52
#224726
I agree with much of what you say but the honest answer to the blame game is look in a mirror. ALMOST EVERY mther fker alive in Western World , especially the US and UK , has a share of blame in this cluster fk. We allowed corrupt and inept politicians to stay in office. We bought into the media subliminal bombardments of greed. We all wanted more. We all got more. At the expense of our grandkids.
To blame this economic meltdown on just men in suits on Wall St is too convenient. The poor and lazy have their share of the blame in this , oh yes.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 09:20
#224788
There was nothing subliminal about the consumerist media bombardment. The lumpen were a necessary part of the bubble. Lifestyles of the Rich and Shameless and all.
As for "we all wanted more", be careful about the "we". Some small percentage of us never believed it was real in the first place. Maybe it's my background in math.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 15:10
#225403
I think our biggest sin was staying conveniently ignorant of what horrors weere being done in our name, with our tax dollars, we didn't mind while we were fat and happy..and of course, we messed up by not minding our own store,...so now getting less fat, and less happy and have enemies galore...
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:47
#224533
Here is your mark to market
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:48
#224535
moneymutt, wheres Leo. LMAO
And let the Races begin.
Just the timing all.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:50
#224540
So where can I get my Cold War 2.0 hat?
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 00:08
#224553
Iceland
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 09:08
#224770
We are still waiting for China to make them for us. 30 million hats is a tall order. You did not think an apparel company here would actually hire Americans to do the job? How else would the three people at the top of the company save money while everyone else is underpaid. Send all the jobs to China I say..great plan.
Great for stocks..Right Cramer?
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:50
#224541
Ben and tim save the world because the concern is social unrest............and what do we get, a boiling pot leading to social unrest.
IMHO, it just seems a matter of time before it is every country for themselves. Not that countries will become protectionist, more of a....f u, i don't care if I do biz with you, here's the price no cod's, pay up front in full.
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:52
#224543
I wonder how many shares of Wal-Mart are held by China?
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 00:41
#224576
EXPERTS: market may crash
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 02:25
#224635
Spam
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 07:53
#224727
SPAM alert
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 00:45
#224578
Arm sales... UP
Buy any kind of DEFENSE contractor and see it go BOOM.
The game is older than China's lame aspirations to become a super power.
Gong Hai Fat Chink.
WE are the masters of the game. Now chop chop buy some UST or we're blocking the Suez Canal, the Panama Canal and the Northwest Passage.
China needs to export. China needs to import.
One billion people need to eat, work, shit and sleep.
.. oh and they need fuel to power their People's army and their People's power plants and their People's cars.
US rules. US controls reserve currency and most importantly resources. End of story.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 00:57
#224585
Bring it on bitches. Let's crush their exports.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 00:58
#224587
Typically, when there is a generalized selling of 'riskier' foreign assets, that often equates with domestic concerns of either liquidity or, more grievously, solvency. I merely suggest that this being linked to a Taiwan arms deal may be an attribution error, and that the issue may lie, not in foreign policy, but rather within the Chinese banking system. Just a thought.
Let's ask Mr. Chanos what he makes of all this muckedy-muck.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 01:01
#224591
Here's one of the few instances where taking a conspiratorial bent might be prudent. I read this as an indication that China's domestic problems are more serious than we suspect. China traditionally puts up some bogeyman against which popular frustration can be directed (rather than at the Party). Usually they use Japan, but the "white devil" works better at a time when China has illusions of being Papa Asia, and a new and weak Japanese PM is making nice to them. To do this right before Lunar New Year (Kung Hei Fat Choy to all) is highly unusual, as happy happy is the preferred societal mood.
There is no way China can consume its own production in any near term time frame, so at this time they need the US (and Western markets) more than the West needs them (the US can always default by CUSIP number on UST's as a last resort). China also needs the technology which they have been absent in producing for nigh on 2500 years. At present they get this technology from either joint ventures (a bit) or theft (most). Cut off the tech flow and China's economy stagnates at closer to the t-shirt and carnival prize stage of development than high margin computer chips and cutting edge bio-science.
If Obama doesn't send Timmy or Hillary over there this afternoon, then the US feels pretty secure with the hand it holds.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 01:21
#224609
they are sitting on a huge basket of technology, including workable nuclear fusion assuming they can find the fusionable material to run some reactors. Lots of it on the moon, not so much here, but that explains their space programs goals nicely doesn't it? They have jumped the shark so to say and are perfectly capable of innovating. Don't let backward ass American opinions cloud your judgment. I am Mongolian, and my people beat the Chinese by starving them out, and then stealing their siege engineers. Wouldn't surprise me to see some weather warfare in the near future...
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 01:30
#224616
Appreciate your comments, but I don't have too much access to "backward ass American opinions", as I have resided in various Asian countries for the last 30 years, speak a number of the languages, and have had a front row seat to the various and sundry "miracles". Not saying I am right, just that I have "informed ignorance".
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 03:40
#224654
You really think China can't consume its own goods when every other western country has debt up to its eye balls... are you high?
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 05:31
#224684
Well, when you put it that way......Of course they would reach the debt bomb limit a lot faster than others did, since 99% of the population earns less than 40000 yuan/year and must eat, sleep, and commute on that sum before any is left over to repay debt. I guess in a world where one plus one equals something between six and seven, anything is now possible.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 21:50
#226111
You are making a logical fallacy, you are arguing that these people can not consume the goods that they themselves produce. It makes no sense what so ever. It would be like you making a chair and saying you couldn't sit in your own chair.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 01:30
#224617
Their "innovation" is mostly based on patent infringement. The Chinese had no "innovation" before the West brought technology and IP into the backwoods.
Because of the Chinese IP theft, the industy is advised not to patent anymore. It's like delivering the blue print directly to Bejing, the "People's Thieves".
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 05:08
#226409
Which industry?
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 09:43
#224829
they are sitting on a huge basket of technology, including workable nuclear fusion assuming they can find the fusionable material to run some reactors.
Wow, that's the most ignorant thing written at ZH in a week. Good work.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 13:43
#225233
Considering that nuclear power uses FISSION of uranium. I'd have to agree.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 02:08
#224629
well if the chinese are motivated by their internal problems it still doesnt change the outcome. they have the ability to start a messy financial fight- but it's mutually assured destruction, which works great! kept the peace during the cold war. And it does require a good bit of posturing and scary talk.
And the Chinese long term strategy is like the US's in the cold war- just huff and puff and bluff the other guy into spending big bucks on military until they are bankrupt. China wants to hoard the cash, and be the last one standing. so they do NOT want to actually start a fight with the US- the fireworks would be spectacular and both countries would be ruined. Even a limited financial conflict would use up a lot of their reserves.
Instead they just have to keep their cool and manage their RE bubble somehow (bailouts. they can afford it.) while the US burns thru our credit lines an order of magnitude faster than anyone else. Per current us budget projections, another decade should be enough to finish off US treasuries, after which the US government starves, and another decade after that our weapons systems become obsolete.
Unless of course war breaks out and the rest of the world is destroyed again like in WWII and the US comes out on top again...
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 05:26
#224681
Yes, something smells funny about China's recent hysterics. I think it may have to do with the transition in power coming up in 2012. I think hardliners are re-asserting power. 'Market Wu' warned of this recently.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 06:13
#224703
Chindit--good post
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 07:12
#224714
Agreed. This highlights domestic Chinese turmoil than anything else.
The US State Department has been setting this for years with demanding that China revalue its currency. That was never in the US's interest and they knew damn well that China would never do it. So why press for nearly a decade for currency manipulation?
"Raising wages" instead of currency revaluation in the opposite direction the US wants is a sign they're appealing to the masses in China who've realized they're being enslaved for a lot of worthless pieces of federal reserve notes.
"Raising wages" is communist code for "we're going to print money". They're going to dump the bonds to prevent their currency from devualing too quickly versus the dollar. They won't sell all of their bonds, they hold too much sway with the US Treasury department unless the FRB is truly going to bailout the world. But calm down about this being a trade war, US officials would like nothing more than have blame deflected off them and onto some foriegn threat.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 08:55
#224754
You know all those Chinese girls providing "happy endings" in every major city in North America?
Industrial spies, every single one of the bitches. They'll be doing espionage, and sending back info via teh intarweb if we ever try to cut off the flow of tech.
I have extra tin-foil hats if you need them.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 01:06
#224595
We will always prevail.
We have more gold than they do. If the bankers stole that too then we will say we have more gold and just bring it to true value and back the buck with gold or some composite. www.jsmineset.com so gold to 1600+?
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 01:08
#224599
So what does this mean for the stock, treasury, and bond markets?
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 01:09
#224601
So what does this mean for the stock, treasury, and bond markets?
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 01:20
#224606
this is not it. wait for treasuries dump.
that is not directed vs eu, that part of destroying is your doing.
agree with them loosing hope. no you can t.
no change. wait for the eu loosing it too... not far away now / "svift" vote coming up.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 01:33
#224619
O.B. admin. has egg on there face. Backing down to China will make him look good just like when he Bowed down to the King in Saudi. He is getting used to the idea of bending over. Yep he will back down and take the missiles out to save face. What a wimp and the world laughs at him.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 01:41
#224622
Better now than ten years from now when China would have owed all our machine shops and repatriated all their US educated PhD’s. I hope China starts an economic fight now, while we can still handle it.
China only cares about China and those in charge of China worry about keeping a lid on the 55 different ethnic groups that make up the country’s population. Their, not unreasonable goal, is to restore China to its historical position of dominance.
A command and control economy can work wonders in the short term. Capitalism can win if there is a little government guidance. Many businesses have made money by establishing plants in China but the long-term cost is over looked. The price of entry into China has often been a transfer of our technical knowhow. As illustrated by Google recently, the Chinese have been actively stealing all the military and industrial information they can for years. The USA has been under attack from China for years now and it seems that no one in authority has cared. Just because they are not firing guns does not mean there is not a battle going on.
It heated up under Clinton and the Bush administration did nothing, seemingly, content reap the short-term gains of cheap Chinese labor.
Until and unless China opens up their markets (and politically they cannot) any business dealing with China should face the same restrictions placed on businesses who wanted to deal with the Soviet Union in the old days. China does what is best for China. American business does what best for each business, which is not the same as doing what is best for America.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 01:55
#224626
Yawn.
The tide is going out, and China forgot their bathing suit.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 02:10
#224631
This means the Chinese will veto any more monetization of US treasuries. IIRC, they allowed the Fed to buy UST early in the recession, but stated that it would be only until the US economy was growing again ( >5% GDP anyone?). Now with the financial saber rattling and angry Chinese generals and stuff, no way will they allow further monetization of their almost trillion US dollars in treasuries. What does this mean for US mortgage rates, even if the Fed continues buying MBS? Rates are gonna go up, unless the markets crash and scare everyone into UST.
If the Chinese follow thru on their verbal brinksmanship, buying SRS may be a good idea.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 15:13
#225410
when politicians face a choice between ticking off foreigners or ticking off domestic folks, they always pick foreigners...Fed will monetize all they want if they think it will keep the domestic hoards at bay...
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 02:20
#224633
It's about goddamn time.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 03:41
#224656
Gordo buddy, been missing your presence.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:52
#226933
Gordon,
Separately from the content of this article, I came across a fragment of an article elsewhere that echoed your sentiment about the relationship between Al Qaeda and the CIA. To quote:
The background is that of the case of Aafia Siddiqui, if you've been following at all. Anyway, was compelled to mention something.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 02:41
#224639
I think all too many view China through the prism of Western ( read US ) perceptions. Pride comes before a fall and you only have to look back at the long and painful decline of the British Empire to see how slowly new realities sink in.( and I would reference more than a few of the ZH commentators for evidence of this proclivity) The US is close to a failed state status in terms of its political system......gridlock may prevent some of the worst excesses, but it also acts just like a deer in the headlights to the gathering fiscal armagedon. China has its strong nationalism and desire for global respect to provide some of the sustaining cohesion the US sorely lacks right now.(ok, maybe not long term----but you know what Keynes said....) I think China`s command economy will muddle through better than the western economies with their `no-one left to fail` mentality.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 03:14
#224646
Well the futures markets are taking in their stride; S&P -0.8 and Dow +2.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 03:24
#224650
It looks like this week is going to be full of soft, fat men throwing out outrageous insults into the media... seeing which way emotions are running. ..
...Banks are not businesses. They facilitate business and keep a .25% fee on year end balances. Investment banks earn their profit, by way of differentiation. Central banks have shown that they are unreliably designed to step in and act as a mother institution wrt retail money flows. These are not Bishops and priests, more like gardeners and priests.
Secondly, what the government does and says -is our business. The decision is yours.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 05:32
#224685
So, that will be Larry Summers doing the insults,
right?
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 03:33
#224652
This is interesting if true and makes sense as preparation for an economic war.
By restricting their US assets to those that are guaranteed by the US government they maximise the effects of future warfare and minimise the collateral damage to themselves
Once the preparation is finished they can sell the treasuries, severely destabilising the US government and weakening the currency and causing massive US dollar printing leading to further US dollar decline.
So the end result is a stronger Chinese currency, possibly even a new reserve currency, that allows them to buy the food, oil and other commodities to allow their people to enjoy the advantages to a raised standard of living that the US has enjoyed in the postwar period.
They will be a strong nation able to provide its people with a high standard of living and the dominant economic power around the world leading to greater soft power than the crisis struck US. The US will still be a major military power, but with no military moves by China that force will be unuseable and will now be sitting on top of a much shrunken economy and its foreign bases paid for with a much weaker currency and all teetering on a manufacturing base, that due to several decades of outsourcing, is in an even worse position to rebound than that the US benefited from when it was the intact manufacturer and all its competitors has their industrial plants smashed. At least after WW2 Europe and Japan still had a population with skilled people who knew how to manufacture and engineer instead of a population of excel spreadsheet magicians and real estate brokers.
So to summarise a plan to become a superpower in competition against a nuclear armed power.
Step 1: Keep the currency artificially low, suppressing your own population's standard of living for several decades, but leading to the shifting of your competitors manufacturing base to your territory
Step 2: Provide easy credit to your competitor so they become economically more vulnerable
Step 3: Remove your exposure to all forms of your competitor's debt except their government debt
Step 4: Pull the plug on your competitors government debt
Step 5: Enjoy the benefits of being the world's largest intact economy, strong currency and currency reserve status producing a high standard of living for your people.
Sure they'll lose a trillion or so in dollar denominated terms, but they'll gain from the value of everything in China being more valuable from the rise in their own currency. And even a trillion is still a lot cheaper than the scale of shooting war necessary to alter the balance of power
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 09:24
#224802
"The US will still be a major military power" - who will lend the money to keep it that way? Up until now they were supplying the money knowing that all those funds will be wasted in both wars, so US is not stronger militarilly but debt has grown, maybe we should have one more war e.g. with Iran or Pakistan?That would speed up our decline.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 13:37
#225217
so jimmie rogers is right!
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 15:16
#225418
if it makes Rogers right, I'm not buying it..
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 03:43
#224657
Even China's long march has a stumble or two in it. Whatever the regional opinion of China and Chinese was, it is deteriorating. First, China has cannibalized a lot of low tech industries from the rest of Asia and hurt those economies, making few friends in the process. China has also spread a lot of its pollution to places where it rapes...er, mines natural resources in exchange for bribes to officials. Third, the degree of arrogance exhibited by newly emerging, newly rich people is never endearing and quickly grows old. The growing resentment alone is going to hamper China in the future, never mind the mistakes it is making at home (pollution, excess capacity, corruption). The path to glory will not be a straight line.
If China is the future, here is a little of what it might look like:
Years ago China began extracting the resources from its neighbor Burma. In northern Kachin State (Burma) China mined jade, cut down vasts swathes of teak and other hardwood trees, and used horrendous amounts of mercury and cyanide to mine gold, ruining the ground water and decimating river fish stocks. Birth defects and mutations are on an exponential rate higher.
Now a Chinese SOE is building a massive 150 meter high dam at the confluence of two rivers, the Mali Ka and Mai Ka, at a point called Myit Sone. Fifteen thousand ethnic Kachin were given a bag of rice and a tin of cooking oil and told to get lost. The resulting lake will flood once valuable farmland as well as release massive amounts of the aforementioned mercury and cyanide into what becomes the Irrawady River.
All 20,000 unskilled laborers who will build the dam are being imported from China, and the kicker: every single watt of generated power is going to China.
To top it off, already hundreds of young ethnic women from the area have disappeared, reported to have been kidnapped and sold off in China as brides.
The area is pretty isolated so few people give a shit what happens. CNN is not there so it must not be important.
Yes, plenty of other countries have behaved badly in the course of doing business, but China is taking things to a whole new level. So many on this site like to believe that every single problem in the world is created by the US/Rothschilds/Bilderbergers/Goldman/etc., but there is plenty of shit to go around. China is full of it.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 13:44
#225229
yeah all the infertile american woman have all their females, china has made itself a nation of all males. makes sense what you say about having to import brides. the yin gets the yang
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 15:05
#225393
thank you, good points...we could write many stories of US backed corporations doing similar things around the world, China is a little easier target in that it is China's regime/govt doing it directly where as west/US has morphed itself to be a bit more convoluted...corporations, banks, IMF, shadow military/drug assistance etc...And Chinese seem way worse with ethnic minorities than US....but either way, wrong is wrong, regardless of who does it: Exxon, CIA, China govt, whoever, its tyranny and imperialism and we regular folks should all band against it in a united fashion.
I think China has a bit of problem coming in their evolution in the central planning aspect...I think it may be less self-correcting than US...not that we have real democracy....
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 15:11
#225404
do you read the automatic earth. it is good.
http://theautomaticearth.blogspot.com/
It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the main consequence of the Greek issue as it plays out today is not the demise of that country, or of the Eurozone, but instead a dramatic acceleration of the world-wide financial truth-finding process that has been lying dormant far too long inside faked balance sheets, moldy bank vaults and make-’em-up-as-we-go accounting standards. Most of those theatrics can only exist as long as they're not exposed to daylight. And that's precisely what Greece may provide us with: a trigger to start a process, a reason to acquire a clearer view of reality.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 15:19
#225428
not to be too trite, but eventually somethings got to give, but Sept 2008 happened about 8 years after I thought it should, so I hesitate to hope...thanks for the aearth ref, been there a few times but do not frequent...like when people post links...learn much from them..
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 15:30
#225461
have you found leo, yet?
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 04:16
#224665
what a complete load of shit this story is !
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 04:42
#224669
Pray tell, kind sir, why?
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 08:22
#224738
in no particular order
-the source is a news aggregator site from Thailand that is speculative at best
-the rest of the world appears to have miised it
-there has been no reaction apart from a moderate strengthening in regional indices today
-the DXY is trading up
.... i think you get it
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 04:44
#224672
Speaking about dollar and the FED, it seems Ben did not fall short of inspiring Wall Street 2 scenarists...
"“When business in the United States underwent a contraction... the Federal Reserve created more paper reserves. The excess credit spilled over into the market triggering a fantastic speculative boom... “"
the script:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/19529399/Wall-Street-2
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 04:59
#224677
But what happens to equity markets?
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 05:10
#224678
This is Heavy. China's sayin' "How You Like Me Now?"...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEJypkRk9IA
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 05:23
#224680
In the beginning of 2009 the six-month futures price for oil was US$ 20 higher than the spot price. Investors faced huge losses unless spot prices rose. A wide gap between spot and futures prices increased inventory demand as arbitrageurs sought to profit from the difference between warehousing costs and the gap between spot and futures prices. That demand flattened the price curve and limited losses for financial investors. Without inventory demand, financial speculation doesn't work.
6. China's bank lending has driven speculative inventory demand for commodities, Chinese banks lend for commodity purchases, allowing the underlying commodities to be used as collateral. These loans are structured like mortgages.
7. The international media has been following reports of record commodity imports by China. The surge is being portrayed as reflecting China's recovering economy. Indeed, the international financial market is portraying China's perceived recovery as a harbinger for global recovery. It is a major factor pushing up stock prices around the world.
8. For four decades before 2003, fine iron ore prices fluctuated between US$ 20 and US$ 30 a ton. As ore was plentiful, prices were driven by production costs. After 2003, Chinese demand drove prices out of this range. Contract prices quadrupled to nearly US$ 100 per ton, and the spot price reached nearly US$ 200 a ton in 2008.
9. China's steel production capacity has skyrocketed, even though capacity is fragmented.
10. China's local governments have been obsessed with promoting steel industry growth, which is the reason for fragmentation. Huge demand and numerous small players are a perfect setup for price increases by the Big Three miners, which often cite high spot prices as the reason for jagging up contract prices.
11. Numerous Chinese steel mills simultaneously want to buy ore to sustain production so their governments can report higher GDP rates, even if higher GDP is money-losing. China's steel industry is structured to hurt China's best interests.
12. As steel demand collapsed in the fourth quarter 2008 and first quarter 2009, steel prices fell sharply. That should have led to a collapse in ore demand. But the bank lending surge armed Chinese ore distributors, giving them money for speculating and stocking up.
http://israelfinancialexpert.blogspot.com/2010/01/50-facts-about-chinas-bubble-economy.html
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 05:51
#224694
if there is a risk that the US is going to 'invalidate' the treasuries held by the chinese (ala KD), or any sort of escalation of econ war, wouldn't it be wise to 'gently' exit your normal market holdings before hammering the government? I can only assume that the US gov will freeze all assets (or something) if/when the fighting gets heavy.
In this game, if i was putting on my boxing gloves (china), I'd be telling my best friends to get their butts on the other side of the ropes, ASAP...
hmmm.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 06:00
#224700
looks like those china people started buying equity futures at about 4 in the morning. lol. the big sell-off.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 06:06
#224701
I like the Chinese plan. Raise their workers pay and shave a little off their cost of production advantage. With more Yuan in their pockets, the Chinese masses will be able to consume more, which is a positive for anyone selling stuff in China, or selling commodities into China.
Maybe if they dump some fixed income securities I can get more than 0.05% from my bank.
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 07:36
#224719
Is there still debt in the US that does not have a federal guaranty?
on Wed, 02/10/2010 - 08:04
#224728
How come in the 100 comments so far there has been scant mention of the 13 percent increase in minimum wage in eastern China’s Jiangsu province that Chinese workers are to receive?
That is huge.
Instead of revaluing the yuan to make Chinese exports more expensive, they're giving workers a huge pay increase instead.
In other words, the Chinese economy is in a position to provide pay increases, boost its economy and building upon, rather than dismantling, its middle class.
Wow!!