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Chris Martenson And James Howard Kunstler Explain How "The World is Going to Get Rounder and Bigger Again"

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"Straight Talk" features thinking from notable minds the #144370; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none; ">ChrisMartenson.com audience has indicated it wants to learn more about. Readers submit the questions they want addressed and our guests take their best crack at answering. The comments and opinions expressed by our guests are their own.

This week's Straight Talk contributor is James Howard Kunstler, author and social critic. His better-known works include #0645ad; background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">The Long Emergency, in which he argues that declining oil production will result in the decline of modern industrialized society and compel Americans to return to smaller-scale, localized, semi-agrarian communities; World Made By Hand and its sequel, The Witch of Hebron, all published by The Atlantic Monthly Press. He writes a weekly blog is also a leading proponent of the movement known as "#0645ad; background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">New Urbanism."

 

1. When will the average US citizen wake up to the perils of peak oil?

JHK:  When a crisis comparable to the 1973 OPEC embargo -- with lines at the filling stations and hefty price-hikes --  whaps them upside the head. For now, what I call the psychology of previous investment is a massive impediment to the public's ability to think clearly. By this I mean mainly our sunk costs in suburbia, including all its furnishings and accessories. That's where we put so much of our "wealth" over the past sixty years. I regard these as tragic mis-investments, of course, because the wealth has gone into a living arrangement that has no future. The housing bubble crash is greatly aggravating the problem, because it is de-valuing the whole kit-and-kaboodle. But the net effect for now is only to generate more anxiety among the public, which leads to more confusion, more cognitive dissonance, more static in the collective imagination, and more political noise -- in short, more obstacles to clear thinking. 

2. There seems to be no political will to tackle the reality of peak oil. What might tip that balance (before we hit the proverbial wall)?

JHK:  Leadership in America has been abysmal on these issues -- and not just in politics, but in business, media, education, the enviro community, even the clergy. For the politicians, I have to suppose that the implications of peak oil are just too painful to face. They simply do not compute into any winning formula. They won't go near it.

I'm quite convinced that Dick Cheney and George Bush were informed about the oil situation, in particular its relation to the national defense. After all, Robert Hirsch arrived on the scene loudly in 2005 with his report, commissioned by the US Department of Energy, which was quickly suppressed because its conclusions were so stark. Bush made occasional remarks about our "dependence on foreign oil" but he didn't have the guts to spell it out further, and he was a tool of Big Oil, after all, which has run a PR campaign for ten years denying the peak oil story. Anyway, he didn't want to interrupt the fabulous credit-driven boom of the years leading to his final months in office, when things really did go south.

Obama is another story, of course. He couldn't be so poorly informed as to not know about peak oil in most of its contours and implications, especially vis-a-vis the military, which has issued more than one report while he's been in office. So I conclude that he is a kind of charming bounder. I'm not necessarily sorry I voted for him, because I think McCain would have been worse, entwined as he is with the lunatic right-wing and its toxic aura of paranoid unreality. 

It's unclear whether the media is too dumb to get the complexities of our oil predicament, or if they are just bought-off lackeys of the various corporate interests. Probably a combo on that. It is rather hard to understand, for instance, the vapidity of The New York Times -- in particular its op-ed pundits, Krugman, Friedman, Brooks. The Times's straight reporting on the oil scene has been scant and fatuous. The Wall Street Journal, ditto. TV news operates in its own special sewage canal of idiocy, so one might not expect much from there.

Since business in America has resolved more and more into a set of rackets, one can't expect plain-dealing from that sector these days.

I've seen the failure of the environmental community up close. Two years in a row at the Aspen Environmental Forum, I listened to the cream of the Green movement rhapsodize over all the cool new "green" ways you can run cars other than on gasoline. You see, their base assumption -- like everyone else in this society -- is that driving cars incessantly is a God-given entitlement. They were in a techno-rapture over electric cars, bio-diesel, and so on. They didn't once mention walkable communities or public transit. They're just not into it. I consider their position utterly disgraceful. 

The clergy is an interesting case. Notice especially how the Sunbelt born-again crowd are perhaps the staunchest defenders of suburbia -- and everything that goes with it, including car dependency and and huge volumes of oil imports from unreliable foreign nations. They conflate suburbia with the constitution and Jesus and, really, their belief system is so incoherent and ridiculous that it must really frighten the educated folk of other nations who see how we carry on. 

3. If you were President and had free reign, what would be your energy plan?

JHK:  

  • I would commence a public debate on whether we go forward with a nuclear power program, to weigh the hazards involved -- but, frankly, there may be no other ways to keep the lights on in a decade or so. It may turn out that we are too short of capital to carry out such a program, or our society may be too disorderly in the years ahead to run it, or we may decide the hazards are not worth it, but the discussion must start now.
  • I would direct major capital resources to repairing the conventional passenger railroads in the US, because commercial aviation as we know it will not continue another ten years, and ditto Happy Motoring, and this is a big continent-sized nation. If we don't get regular rail running, we may not be able to go anywhere. We should just put aside our fantasies about high-speed rail or mag-lev. We're too broke for that, and we need to temper our techno-grandiosity. But, believe me, Americans will be deliriously happy ten years from now if they can go from Des Moines to Chicago at 80mph on-time. During the Obama years, we've stupidly poured our dwindling capital resources into building more highways. This foolishness has got to stop. I would promote public transit at the smaller municipal scale as well, to go with regular rail.
  • I'd begin the task of rehabilitating our inland waterways so we can move more goods around the nation by boat -- and in particular the port facilities that have been mostly removed in places like St. Louis and Cincinnati and around the Great Lakes.
  • I would put an emphasis on walkable communities. I would prepare the nation for the possibility of gasoline rationing, since events could shove us into criticality at any time.
  • I would begin closing down scores of unnecessary overseas military bases and I would terminate the nation-building project in Afghanistan since there is no possibility that we can control the terrain or the population there for anything more than the shortest run.
  • I would direct the Attorney General of the US to mount investigations of the Bank of America, JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, and other big banks in connection with the massive swindles and frauds in house lending and the securitization of mortgages -- because the rule of law requires that somebody be held accountable for the demolition of the banking system.
4. Now take out your crystal ball. What is the most likely scenario you see playing out in global energy supplies over the next few decades?

JHK:  I see the USA getting blind-sided by events. We import nearly three-quarters of the oil we use and much of it comes from very dodgy places. The ideas derived from Jeff Brown's Export Land Theory tell us that oil export rates are certain to go down very steeply and soon. Before long, exporting nations will have to ask themselves whether they ought to keep some of their oil around for their own people.

In the meantime, China is very busy spending its foreign exchange reserves on "favored customer" oil contracts, more or less cornering a lot of the market. I think that will lead to conflict between them and us. We may even invoke the Monroe Doctrine over Chinese oil purchases out of Canada.

Also meanwhile, we'll see the feedback loop of demand destruction leading to supply destruction as the oil industry becomes starved of capital to get at new production to offset worldwide depletions, and that will result in wildly gyrating oil prices -- all of which will shove the global oil industry -- production and markets -- into fatal instability. Nicole Foss's rap on this dynamic is an excellent reference.

The prospects for gross geopolitical mischief around this are huge, of course, meaning war in some shape or form -- and it will clearly be a war over dwindling resources. Also, of course, you can't overstate the potential for disorder in the Middle East. The king of Saudi Arabia is well over 80 years old now and his successor is also old and ill. I'd suggest we may see a Shia uprising on the western rim of the Persian Gulf (that is, the Arabian side) that would bring down the Saud royal family and ignite a major struggle all over the region. 

There is currently a lot of hoopla over shale gas in the USA, but I think that will disappoint us, since it requires gigantic ongoing capital investment, and capital will be in ever-shorter supply. And this is not to mention the other problems and hazards associated with shale gas "fracking," such as the extreme forms of groundwater pollution and cancer clusters.

Bottom line: in ten years or fewer the USA will be starved for energy resources and probably on its ass in one way or another.

5. The economy's a mess.  What's the best possible outcome to this and how does it come about?

JHK:  The best possible outcome would be a peaceful re-set to a lower scale of activity -- the whole downscaling and re-localization package. It's hard to see that happening smoothy.

It will be very painful because we're talking about liquidation and de-leveraging beyond even Great Depression levels. We have to allow a clearing of mis-investment. Unfortunately, this means not just the "toxic" paper from the colossal frauds and swindles of Wall Street but much of the infrastructure of suburbia itself, which is losing value now even despite massive government efforts to prop up house prices and pretend that losses in commercial real estate haven't occurred. That clearing process is so tremendous that it is hard to imagine a way that it could occur without leading to gross political disorder -- including the possible breakup of the USA into smaller autonomous regions. We're looking at institutional failure at never-before-imagined levels: pensions and social security lost, insurance companies and banks collapsing, the medical system in disarray, really the whole social safety net and beyond just dissolving. This is a comprehensive economic collapse beyond the scale even of the Soviet collapse which, Dmitry Orlov tells us, at least allowed people to stay in their homes and get around on public transit when all else failed.

One much-fretted-over outcome is authoritarian government in the USA. We can see the larval stage of that now with the tea baggers and the theocratic right-wing and a Republican Party that has made itself hostage to the John Birch Society -- but I maintain, as I wrote in The Long Emergency, that it's more likely the federal government will become impotent and ineffectual, and therefore unable to carry out a "corn-pone Nazi" program, even if such characters got a hold of the offices.

In any case, America will be faced with rebuilding all the major pieces of its economy at a lower scale: farming, commerce, transportation, education, banking, you name it. This re-set will occur naturally -- if we don't blow ourselves to Kingdom Come -- but there's no telling how long the process might take. We do know that following the collapse of Rome, Western Europe endured nearly a thousand years of relative hardship. I'd add that societies are essentially emergent organisms and that this economic re-set would therefore be an emergent phenomenon -- not something that required centralized planning or anything like it.

One notable side effect of all this will be a "time out" from technological innovation, which is destroying the ecosystem of the planet Earth, our only home. The human race needs a time out from all this techno-magic-mischief, a period to reflect on what we've done and how we ought to behave with this stuff. I don't even know for sure whether it's a time out or a game-over for technology, and I'm not convinced that we need to know at this point.

6. What steps are you currently taking in preparations for the upcoming “post-peak” years? What do you advise to those simply looking to protect the purchasing power of their current wealth?

JHK:  Well, at 62 I've already outlived Babe Ruth, Mozart, Abe Lincoln, and George Gershwin,  so however long I go from here is "gravy."  But I do all I can to maintain good health. I eat mostly plants, as Michael Pollan would say. I get a lot of exercise. I lead a purposeful daily life. I stay current with the dentist. I made the formative decision of where-to-live over thirty years ago when I settled in a "main street" small town in upstate New York. My surplus wealth is invested for the moment in hard gold, the Sprott Physical fund, Australian and Canadian short term bond funds (cash equivalent), and Potash mining. I am renting my dwelling, sitting out the housing collapse. I acquired the NY State handgun permit (not so easy). I have some tubs of brown rice, lentils, and curry powder, etc., stashed away. Alas, I didn't have the capital twenty years ago to get hold of forty acres and a mule -- but that's not a bad idea for other people.

7. Are you able to tell (either based on your website viewership or book sales, or from any other source) in which parts of the country/population your teachings are gaining the most traction?

JHK:  My only index of that is the size and mood of audiences where I speak around the country. The Pacific Northwest is always a lively spot. The people who show up are intelligent, informed, and interested. In Southern California I seem to be utterly unknown. Parts of the Midwest, such as Wisconsin and Minnesota, seem to be organizing for a different economy, but other parts (rural Illinois, Indiana, Ohio) are sheer zombie-land. New York City and Washington exist in bubble-fantasylands of their own. Rural New England is pretty peak oil aware, though the Boston-Cambridge hub is locked into transports of techno-rapture, probably due to the techno-grandiose culture of MIT. The baleful influence of Harvard shows up in the urban design and architecture field, where they are preoccupied with narcissistic careerism rather than repairing the human habitat. Dixieland is hopeless, what with their thrall to the born-agains and the misfortunes of their demographic (namely, "Cracker Culture" which celebrates ignorance and violence). I don't follow my book sales, frankly, and my website manager knows more about the activity on my site than I do.

8. You speak to a lot of audiences and groups.  What has shifted over the years and what, if anything, gives you hope in those trends?

JHK:  I must tell you that I think almost nothing has shifted among the body politic except perhaps the levels of angst and desperation for individual citizens brought on by personal calamity involving job losses, debt, house repossession, family breakup, and related effects of our economic collapse. Meanwhile the distractions from all this pain and stress are ever more moronic -- Dancing with the Stars starring Bristol Palin -- can it get any worse?

Mr. Obama, who I voted for, has done almost nothing to address our energy predicament, and the 2200-page financial regulation bill he signed does little to reform the problems in capital finance -- so, here we are eight months after Fin-Reg entering another stage of the banking crisis. We are still absolutely sleepwalking into the future.

9. It seems inevitable that the suburbs (with 60-mile commutes) and places like LA will suffer badly in a peak oil future.  Do you still hold the view that some regions are going to fare substantially better than others?

JHK:  It ought to be self-evident. I mean, compare Phoenix and Portland, Oregon. Phoenix is utterly toast in a few years. They can't grow any food there without expensive and heroic irrigation. They have water problems. They're slaves to their cars. They're in a place where even the hamburger flippers need air-conditioning to survive. It's quite hopeless there. Portland, on the other hand, has turned itself into one of the finest walkable cities in the USA and the Willamette River Valley is one of the most productive farming micro-regions in the world. Human beings will continue to live and thrive to some extent there. Similarly, I think the Great Lakes region is undervalued these days. It is whole lot of good ag land surrounded by the world's most extensive inland sea -- kind of a Mediterranean of fresh water. I remain pessimistic about Dixieland, which I think will be prone to violence and political disorder. In the longer run I believe it will become what it was before World War 2: an agricultural backwater. But, really, everybody in every region of the country will be touched by the problems of the long emergency.

10. What question didn’t we ask, but should have? What’s your answer?

JHK:  Will China dominate the world further into the 21st Century?  

A lot of people think so. I'm not so sure about that. They have problems that are orders of magnitude greater than ours with population overshoot, dwindling fresh water, industrial pollution, relatively little oil of their own, and legitimacy of governance. They've become net food importers.

We look at them and their recent accomplishments in awe -- and they've come a long way from the point thirty years ago when most Chinese lived like it was the twelfth century. But they came to the industrial fiesta very late. They are making some rather dumb choices -- like, trying to get their whole new middle class in cars on freeways, putting up thousands of skyscrapers. Their banking system is possibly more corrupt and dysfunctional than ours -- since it's run by the state, with very poor accountability for lending. As a Baby Boomer, I well remember China's psychotic break of the 1960s, when the country went cuckoo under the elderly, ailing, paranoid Mao Tse-Tung -- which is to say, they're capable of flipping out on the grand scale under stress. They are reaching out these days in a resource grab using their accumulated foreign exchange reserves. At some future time -- say, if the global banking system implodes, and their forex reserves lose value -- I wonder if they will reach out militarily for resources, and how the world might react.

In any case, I take issue with the Tom Friedman notion that the world has become permanently flat. The world is going to get rounder and bigger again. We'll discover -- surprise! -- that the global economy was a set of transient economic relations that obtained only because of a half century of cheap energy and relative peace between the big nations. Ahead now, I think you'll see the big nations shrink back into their own corners of the world. I'm not saying we'll see no international trade, but it will be nothing like the  conveyer belt from China to WalMart that we've known the last few decades. And the prospects for conflict are very very high.

 


 

#383838; min-height: 15px; ">If you have not yet seen the other articles in this series, you can find them here:

ChrisMartenson.com readers can submit their preferences for future Straight Talk participants, as well as questions to ask them, via the #144370; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Straight Talk forum.

 

 

 


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Wed, 11/17/2010 - 11:49 | Link to Comment NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

how many more of these lost koolaid drinkers do we need to listen to who find obama charming and are happy they voted for him

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 11:55 | Link to Comment Uncle Sugar
Uncle Sugar's picture

+1    

 Seriously, how is it not obvious that the teleprompter-in-chief is in over his head.  And now that he's cornered, I expect him to get nasty these next 24 months.

 

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:40 | Link to Comment hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

There is currently a lot of hoopla over shale gas in the USA, but I think that will disappoint us, since it requires gigantic ongoing capital investment, and capital will be in ever-shorter supply. And this is not to mention the other problems and hazards associated with shale gas "fracking," such as the extreme forms of groundwater pollution and cancer clusters.

This is patently false. The capital investment has already been done.  The fracking trucks are everywhere on site, and cheap to replace.  He needs to come up with a better response to the very real and sizeable successes in the Eagle Ford shale. 

Cancer clusters...for fracking? Come on. 

Maybe something along the lines of buying us much needed time?  Dismissing it outright makes him appear less credible.  

His generalized bashing of the South and Christians does not help get the message out.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:53 | Link to Comment TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

"Wishful thinking" is what this is called.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:29 | Link to Comment Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

Do you know the first thing about gas production from fracked wells in shale formations?

 

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:48 | Link to Comment hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

Hey man, I am peak oil aware.  Check my history on this blog.  Nevertheless, you do know that producers in Eagle Ford are using horizontal drilling and fracking technology to produce oil, not gas?  They are having success all the way up to Dallas county.  I know this only buys a few months of global demand, but Kunstlers statement re shale requiring huge investment is false.  This I do know, and with this knowledge has come some excellent returns.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:55 | Link to Comment ATTILA THE WIMP
ATTILA THE WIMP's picture

Could you recommend some good web sites/books/gurus on energy situation?

PS: Your horse is going the wrong way.

 

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:46 | Link to Comment hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

I work in Houston, so the best information I receive comes from friends and neighbors that are in the industry. 

Here is one site:

http://oilshalegas.com/index.html

And this is from a link on Matt Savinar's LATOC site http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/BreakingNews.html to a current National Geographic article:

Published November 9, 2010

 

The year 2006 may be remembered for civil strife in Iraq, the nuclear weapon testing threat by North Korea, and the genocide in Darfur, but now it appears that another world event was occurring at the same time—without headlines, but with far-reaching consequence for all nations.
 

That’s the year that the world’s conventional oil production likely reached its peak, the International Energy Agency (IEA) in Vienna, Austria, said Tuesday.
 

According to the 25-year forecast in the IEA's latest annual World Energy Outlook, the most likely scenario is for crude oil production to stay on a plateau at about 68 to 69 million barrels per day.

In this scenario, crude oil production "never regains its all-time peak of 70 million barrels per day reached in 2006," said IEA’s World Energy Outlook 2010.
 

In previous years, the IEA had predicted that crude oil production would continue to rise for at least another couple of decades.

Now, because of rising oil prices, declines in investment by the oil industry, and new commitments by some nations to cutting greenhouse gas emissions, the new forecast says oil production is likely to be lower than the IEA had expected.
 

End of Cheap Oil

The projected flat crude oil production doesn’t translate into an immediate shortage of fuels for the world’s cars and trucks. IEA actually projects that the total production of what it calls “petroleum fuels” is most likely to continue steadily rising, reaching about 99 million barrels per day by 2035.
 

This growth in liquid fuels would come entirely from unconventional sources, including "natural gas liquids," which are created as a by-product of tapping natural gas reservoirs.

 
more....

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/energy/2010/11/101109-peak-oil-iea-world-energy-outlook/

________________________________________________

PS: Your horse is going the wrong way.

Maybe so, but he keeps passing GO, so I will keep him on this lead until he tires.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 15:07 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

naw...IEA's production growth thru 2035 is mostly made up by "oil not yet discovered"

IOW, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...we need 2 or 3 more Ghawars.

The abiotic crowd says that these things are out there lurking underneath Wal Mart parking lots

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 15:16 | Link to Comment Rick Masters
Rick Masters's picture

I live where they frack and I'm not happy about it but it must be easy to support something in PA when you live in TX. I can tell you for certain fracing on the scale necessary to produce sufficient energry will not occur here. It's politically impossible.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 15:36 | Link to Comment hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

Eagle Ford is in Texas.  So are other big shale plays.

If you drive, buy groceries at the supermarket, or heat your house with gas or oil, then you, sir, are supporting fracking and a variety of other extraction methods.  The stuff don't jus' rise up like a gusher anymo'; and thus our decreasing ratio of EROEI. 

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:14 | Link to Comment Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

Oil wells and gas wells aren't the same thing, and some occasional success with one in one formation doesn't mean some new paradigm.

And oh yes, I know that horizontal drilling and fracking has been in some use for decades.

All the excitement Kunstler is attacking is gas wells in various northern parts of the lower 48.  The typical fracked gas well produces strongly for about a year and then declines very, very fast.  It's not like older oil wells in good giant fields that could be drilled once and produce well for decades, with a total productive lifespan of 30-50 years.  Rather it's more of a flash in the pan, a couple years of smoldering and then it's out, useless, wasted.  And for that you seriously contaminated a lot of groundwater and used up a lot of previously clean surface or upper groundwater to do it.  Not real bright.

The excitement over this shale gas from expensive fracked wells just shows how bad our energy situation is.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:41 | Link to Comment flattrader
flattrader's picture

Shale gas fracking.

Exploding water from your well and dead cattle from drinking fracking run off.

What's not to like?

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7054210n

Shale gas drilling:  Pros and Cons

I'd rather have nuclear power plants (on the French model) and electric cars than this kind of potential environmental disaster fueling nat gas cars.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 15:39 | Link to Comment Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

Nuclear power managed responsibly has insignificant risks and very little environmental downside.  Yes, you need to dig a deep hole somewhere that doesn't get earthquakes, and bury your high-level waste in waterproof containers at the bottom of that hole.  This is maybe 0.1% the effort of dealing with the drawbacks of coal power.

After that, it's all politics and blinding ignorance among the chattering classes.

Shale gas makes a few people rich in the short term and destroys the environment where it's been done.  And it provides only a very short-term supply of fuel.  It's at least as bad as tar sands, maybe worse.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 17:28 | Link to Comment Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

that deep hole to "bury your high-level waste in waterproof containers" tends to be located in "other people's" back yards, and is (understandably) not so welcomed:

German police scuffled with protesters Saturday as tens of thousands of people gathered in Dannenberg, northern Germany, vowing to block a nuclear waste convoy arriving from France.

http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-world/german-protesters-mobilise...

god forbid nations bury their shit in their own space.

 

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 22:43 | Link to Comment Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

Any nation over 100 square miles can find a safe, reasonable place to bury this waste.  1000 feet under Manhattan would work just fine, no worries, no risk to the inhabitants of the surface.  100% seriously.

The US should have been putting waste in Yucca Mountain for the last 15-20 years, but you can thank Harry Asshole Reid for blocking that completely sensible and safe as can be waste storage option.  It's farther in the desert than the fucking nuclear test site, site of roughly 1000 nuclear explosions, for chrissake.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 15:54 | Link to Comment Rogerwilco
Rogerwilco's picture

@hedge less

You are confused. Fracking technology has little or nothing to do with oil shale, it's used in natural gas formations. Anyway, the problem with shale deposits isn't one of access, many can be strip-mined. The problem is processing, and the current technologies require lots of energy and water to convert the trapped hydrocarbons to a useful working fluid.

Here in Western Colorado we have huge oil shale deposits, some of them dating back to the 1930s when large tracts were reserved by the Navy. But short of building a nuclear plant and diverting half of the flow from the Colorado River, ther is no practical way to process these deposits at any reasonable cost.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 16:47 | Link to Comment Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

Everything after "Anyway," is correct.

However, while fracking for gas gets all the attention (and is what 99% of people mean when they say "fracking"), various forms of rock fracturing have been used for some time to increase oil production when the reservoir rock is not as permeable as the well owner would like it to be.  The process is similar to fracking in a gas formation, but the product and the rock are different.

Anything more detailed probably needs to go to TOD or something...

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 17:03 | Link to Comment hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

You are confused. Fracking technology has little or nothing to do with oil shale, it's used in natural gas formations.

Who decided to give the Western Slope internet access?  Sadly, you are the one that is confused.  The oil and gas shale the rest of the world outside of Mesa County speaks of today is not the shale you know from the mountains above Parachute/Grand Valley/Whatever-the-fuck-you-call-it-now.  You should go back to polishing your Chippewas and cruising North Avenue in your monster truck. 

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:53 | Link to Comment High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

Either that or do the right thing and get assassinated.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:31 | Link to Comment 1100-TACTICAL-12
1100-TACTICAL-12's picture

I guess in this guy's opinion, Anyone below the Mason-Dixon, will be shooting their neighbor, humping their cousin, while eating corn bread & pullin on a  moonshine jug ..

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 15:54 | Link to Comment hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

Dickhead for a neighbor...check.

Good looking cousin...eh, check.

Like cornbread...check.

Like moonshine...big check.

Looks like he might be right.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 19:20 | Link to Comment dnarby
dnarby's picture

+1 I like the author, but the first poster is right.  Amazing he got all those junks.  Guess we better brush up on Washington's "How to persuade stubborn people" http://www.zerohedge.com/article/how-persaude-stubborn-people

And:

3. If you were President and had free reign, what would be your energy plan?

THORIUM.

THORIUM!

THOOOOOORRRRRIUM!

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 11:59 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Must be some damn kickass Kool-Aid these people are drinking. I stopped reading at 'If I were president, I'd start a public debate about proceeding with nuclear energy'.. hell youre worthless, all you encounter group touchy feely assclowns, theyre the reason we're in this present mess! They all still live in a college dorm mentality!

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:09 | Link to Comment Ripped Chunk
Ripped Chunk's picture

Funny how SD was junked but the 2 trolls above skate.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:15 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

? Lot of junkers around today. What I wish we had were the old '+1' rating ability instead of just junk!

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:34 | Link to Comment NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

remnants of the paid george soros yahoo posters;

the census jobs are over, they hear about ZH and flock

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:28 | Link to Comment Sabremesh
Sabremesh's picture

I think you're flattering yourself.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:25 | Link to Comment GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

and I know he is.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 16:40 | Link to Comment NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

so you get a quarter for each junk?

an obama doll? what

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:04 | Link to Comment Ripped Chunk
Ripped Chunk's picture

That would be nice.

I personally would rather have a bunch of these junkers in a sound proof room myself.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:01 | Link to Comment barkster
barkster's picture

the old peak oil scam again...

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:27 | Link to Comment G-R-U-N-T
G-R-U-N-T's picture

Exactly...Not this "Peak Oil" crap again!!!

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:37 | Link to Comment TumblingDice
TumblingDice's picture

Yea Peak Oil was sooo 2008...or 1978 if talking in Production per capita terms.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:54 | Link to Comment tmosley
tmosley's picture

Exactly.  As oil runs out, we will transition to cheaper sources of energy.  That is all there is to it, and all there ever has been.  You don't see anyone dying, or industries grinding to a halt due to peak charcoal.

Eventually, this process will run out of consumable fuel, that is true.  But A, that period is far, far away and unpredictable, and B, there are renewable alternatives that will put an upper limit on energy costs eventually.  If you can print solar cells from organic materials and plaster them everywhere, then you aren't going to have as big a problem as, say, having to grow algae and press the oil out.  Solar technologies are already appearing that have the better cost profiles than central fossil fuel based energy production.  New technologies are coming down the pike to make organic cells self repairing, which in theory would extend the life of those cells to the point where the only real method of failure will be physical destruction of the cell.  Further, cheap, simple graphene production is poised to revolutionize cell efficiencies (source: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature09579.html).  We're talking printing presses that make solar panels here.

The only thing stopping that train is government interference.  Get rid of that, and energy will flow until everyone has all they need, or until space colonization begins in earnest.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:14 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

Jeez, you're stupid.

You say this same mantric shit every time the peak oil problem is brought up.

Just techno polyannaism.  CHEAPER sources of energy...than oil?  HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You have been slapped around in PO discussion so many times, yet you are unrelenting; this is precisely what is WRONG with this country and with people in general.

You're WRONG, ok?  It's time to own up to that.  You're wrong like all the people you bleat about who won't accept the correct crap you say about the Fed or the economy.  You complain that they won't listen.  They are resistant to persuasion by the truth.

Yet HERE YOU ARE doing the very SAME THING.  Amazing

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:34 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Peak Oil.. Solved.

Oilternative Engineering @ http://www.squareandc.net

Resonance, beaches!

ORI

http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com

 

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:50 | Link to Comment cosmictrainwreck
cosmictrainwreck's picture

geez, looeze! the two ANTI-peakOil aboe trav7777 get junked like crazy, then trav - totally PRO-peakOil gets junked, too. Everybody in a pissy mood today?

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 15:11 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

there are people who understand and accept peak oil and then there are idiots...but around here everyone get junk'd

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:49 | Link to Comment cosmictrainwreck
cosmictrainwreck's picture

geez, looeze! the two ANTI-peakOil above trav7777 get junked like crazy, then trav - totally PRO-peakOil gets junked, too. Everybody in a pissy mood today?

(see how many I get for this one)

 

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 15:20 | Link to Comment Rick Masters
Rick Masters's picture

 faced with the truth that they might be wrong you have two choices: admit your mistake or produce evidence to spupport your theory. Must get busy doing the prooving.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:24 | Link to Comment TumblingDice
TumblingDice's picture

Renewables right now make up less than 10% of all energy production, with hydroelectric power taking the largest chunk of that. The net energy that you can extract from non-renewable energy is decreasing exponentially since the "energy invested" part of the (energy extracted - energy invested) equation is growing and the "energy extracted" is starting to decrease. In 1980 we could use about 90% of all energy extracted from oil now we use about 70% and the rest goes towards extracting/refining/transporting more oil.

The point here being, that if the net energy from 85% of the world energy output is decreasing at an expotential rate, the other 15% have their work cut out for them. The math doesn't add up.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:37 | Link to Comment Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

What "cheaper source" of energy?

Name one thing that provides the kind of energy density that petroleum does, that has larger reserves, and costs less. 

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:51 | Link to Comment hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

The Sun?

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:10 | Link to Comment Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

Sorry, two out of three only.

Solar energy's density is much less than petroleum.

Calculate what it would take to run your house using solar.  Why haven't you converted yet?  It's "cheaper" than running on the grid right? 

Now try the same calculation for running an integrated solar panel manufacturing facility powered by solar.  It is not economically viable.  Solar simply returns less energy per dollar invested than petroleum.  As petroleum gets more expensive, solar's ineffeciency won't get better either, it actually get's more expensive. 

Try mining those rare earths with solar...  or flying a jet, or running a train, ship, etc. etc. 

In a sense, bio-fuels are also forms of solar - review how efficient they are.

As energy costs go up, more inefficient energy sources may get more tolerable, but that will not facilitate increased growth, as the net energy return is still lower than oil. 

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:11 | Link to Comment hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

Dang it!  I must be too dense to understand density.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:53 | Link to Comment TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Ergo nuclear.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 15:07 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Resonant Storage and Extraction Systems.

Like our bodies. ATP replication system. But mechanical.

The possibilities if we allow ourselves to be bold, are limitless.

ORI

http://www.squareandc.net

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 15:14 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

GFD, I just can't take anymore of this.

Dude.  Do you have ANY IDEA how paltry the wattage is of a biological machine?  I mean what can Alberto Contador light up, a few fucking lightbulbs?

A car motor is SO VASTLY beyond what these chemical processes can achieve...not even in the same galaxy, power-wise.

The possibilities are limitless...LOL, how goofy.  NO, they aren't.  Dude, get a grip.  It does nobody any good for you wacko polyannas to go around spouting your technobabble pie in the sky bullshit about how if we'd just wish upon enough fucking stars sufficiently strenuously, all our dreams including perpetual motion would come true.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 15:47 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

trav,

Any intelligent person reading your comment-stream will realize that you are all mind, no heart, no body (nobody), totally stuck in your grandiose head. Do you even have a body? Maybe not. You spout abuse and derision on one and all and expect me to take you seriously? Really? 

When I am saying with absolute confidence and my name and address and place of business listed and available to one and all, that I have a solution to EVERY PROBLEM CREATED FOR MANKIND BY THIS TECHNOLOGICAL MOSNTOROUS INDUSTRIAL AGE DESIGNED DYSTOPIA.....WAIT.... READ THAT AGAIN>>> EVERY PROBLEM, WHETHER OF FOOD, CLOTHING/SHELTER/HEALTH/FITNESS/TRANSPORT/LAND USE/ENERGY GENERATION AND DISTRIBUTION and any other category of human endeavor your paltry brain can come up with, that I'd pay the least attention to a thought prisoner like you?

Worthless Glass house sitting stone thrower, I have not heard a single positive thing in any of your posts so far.

Crawl away!

Wait, before you crawl, here is some wisdom from you, from the mouth of a better man than I, Frank Herbert:

In all of my universe I have seen no law of nature, unchanging and inexorable. This universe presents only changing relationships which are sometimes seen as laws by short-lived awareness.These fleshy sensoria which we call self are ephemera withering in the blaze of infinity, fleeting aware of temporary conditions which confine our activities and change as our activities change. If you must label the absolute, use its proper name: Temporary.

 

And particularly for the calcified, like you, obviously:

The person who takes the banal and ordinary and illuminates it in a new way can terrify. We do not want our ideas changed. We feel threatened by such demands. "I already know the important things!" we say. Then Changer comes and throws our old ideas away.

Now crawl away! ORI

 

http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com

http://www.squareandc.net

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 16:33 | Link to Comment Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

Regarding Frank Herbert, a science fiction writer:  (from wiki) "[Herbert's]career as a novelist began with the publication of The Dragon in the Sea in 1955, where he used the environment of a 21st century submarine as a means to explore sanity and madness. The book predicted worldwide conflicts over oil consumption and production."

Here's another quote from an actual scientist of some regard:

"It has often been said that, if the human species fails to make a go of it here on Earth, some other species will take over the running. In the sense of developing high intelligence this is not correct. We have, or soon will have, exhausted the necessary physical prerequisites so far as this planet is concerned. With coal gone, oil gone, high-grade metallic ores gone, no species however competent can make the long climb from primitive conditions to high-level technology. This is a one-shot affair. If we fail, this planetary system fails so far as intelligence is concerned. The same will be true of other planetary systems. On each of them there will be one chance, and one chance only. (Hoyle, 1964)"

It is a fallacy to argue that because science has "saved us" in the past, that it will continue to be able to do so inperpetuity.

Regardless of what advances may, or may not be on the horizon, I would trust what the actual scientist who are supposed to come up with said paradigm-shifting advances have to say on the subject, rather than hopefuls with little real training in the sciences.

As I stated before in another thread, my scientist friends (wife included) are all substantially more worried about our future than my non-scientist friends who have the audacity to lay the ever more difficult burden of "fixing things" on their shoulders. 

 This should be informative.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 18:13 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

Heart?  I am ALL HEART MUTHAFUCKA

Anyway, movie quotes aside, I like your scifi writer's total head up ass polyanna shit.  It makes me weep, man, it really does.

Feel free to walk around with your head in the clouds dreaming up antigravity while those of us with ACTUAL engineering degrees understand that there is NO WAY out of the 2nd Law.

You don't have a solution; you have a lot of crazy bullshit, but that's ok.  We need crazy bullshitters like you, as it takes all kinds in the village.

Your dipshit scifi writer saw no laws that were unchanging?  Then, to be totally blunt, HE'S AN IDIOT with NO SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE whatsoever.  Physical laws are physical laws, whether or not his dumb ass saw them.

The laws of motion haven't changed in several hundred years; tweaked by Relativity, yes, but changed?  Swept away?  NO.  For all intents and purposes F STILL = MA.

This might surprise you but the way shit works is governed by physical laws which do not change.  Atoms are still bound by the same forces as they were 10 billion years ago and will be 10 billion from now.

What really is insignificant is all this stupid human imagination...it's really arrogance more than anything else.  Its pinnacle appears to be your notion that you have solutions for everything.  Amazingly, nobody is taking you up on them.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 23:08 | Link to Comment Wyndtunnel
Wyndtunnel's picture

+666  Trav, I seriously love your aggressive stance... Keep up the good work!!  

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 12:23 | Link to Comment Hulk
Hulk's picture


Resonant Storage and Extraction Systems.

Like our bodies. ATP replication system. But mechanical.

The possibilities if we allow ourselves to be bold, are limitle..

 

Complete and utter nonsense...I suggest you grab your shoelaces and try and place your feet on the ceiling...

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:03 | Link to Comment Econolingus
Econolingus's picture

"As oil runs out,we will transition to cheaper sources of energy."  Because, of course, capitalism dictates that the most expensive system inputs be utilized first. 

Your argument fails from its premise, and your conclusion is moronic:  "space colonization"?  Are you serious?  And this is necessary why?

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:41 | Link to Comment 1100-TACTICAL-12
1100-TACTICAL-12's picture

AS oil runs we will transition, but cheaper I think not... The only thing's getting cheaper will be whores & politicians....

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:32 | Link to Comment the rookie cynic
the rookie cynic's picture

Cheap energy is gone. No doubt some of the energy sources you site will contribute eventually, but it's not going to be enough. Not nearly enough.

I posted this later in thread, but I wanted to make sure tmosley saw it:

 

Right now alternative/renewable energy sources produce about 9 quadrillion BTUs a year. Sounds like a lot right? Not!

Estimates are that by 2035 we’ll need 739 quadrillion BTUs to sustain world population at that time. 

Economically recoverable oil will be mostly depleted by then I think. We won’t make up the shortfall without a radical change in energy policy and production.

Go here for summary of the energy situation with real numbers.

http://fora.tv/2009/01/16/Saul_Griffith_Climate_Change_Recalculated#fullprogram

Perhaps a better heading for the discussion is "Peak Energy".  Fossil fuels represent millions of years of collected solar energy - a windfall of monumental proportions. Replacing that will be a miracle (i.e. fusion).

Peak oil is an important issue. Deny it at your peril.

http://therookiecynic.wordpress.com/2010/10/03/coming-soon-to-a-neighbor...

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:22 | Link to Comment GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Totally agree with you NOTW777, they all should have voted for Ralph Nader. That was your point, right?

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:44 | Link to Comment High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

Peak oil? Good grief Kunstler, is that all you got?  Give me a break. The United States has enough oil to last it for hundreds of years. Why don't you talk about the FED Kunstler?  Does it hurt real bad, knowing that most if not all of the damage is being done by members of your tribe?  I bet it does. But that is ok. We will deal with it. Do we have any other choice?  No.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:56 | Link to Comment TumblingDice
TumblingDice's picture

The United States has enough oil to last it for hundreds of years.

The reserves/production ratio for the US is ten years. The rpr for the world is 40 years. Just because someone is wrongly situated on one side of the debate, like this clown apparently being a pro fed dolt, it doesn't mean that the content of his ideas is wrong. Bernie Sanders comes to mind. The self proclaimed socialist and a silly guy all in all, lead an audit of the fed in the Senate.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:24 | Link to Comment High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

Sir, we have enough oil at the North Slope of Alaska to last us from that plac alone for 200 years. Guess who owns that oil production? Can you say BHP? I knew you could. Ever heard of them?  They are Rothschild company. They recently in the last few years found huge oil bearing deposits in the North Dakota area. Have you heard much about this? Well of course not. Google it and read about it. Not to mention the Gulf of Mexico. Did you forget the gusher that was out there a few short months ago? There is more oil in the gulf of Mexico than in Saudi Arabia. Sorry, but the oil shortage is a scam. I respectfully disagree with the oil shortage argument.

http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/next-energy-news2.13s.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14678206/ns/business-oil_and_energy

In my opinion, after reading about this, is that oil does not come from fossils. The problem in the gulf is that the oil is located at very difficult depths with the obvious problems that go with discoveries at those depths.

peak oil scam

http://internet-scam-busters.com/tag/peak-oil

http://hubpages.com/hub/America-Has-More-Oil-Than-Saudi-Arabia

The defense rest.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:45 | Link to Comment TumblingDice
TumblingDice's picture

The goofy 400 billion barrels estimate cited in your first link was never peer reviewed. Here is the latest USGS assesment (~3.65 billion barrels)

http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1911

The quality of the oil you are talking about is just as important as quanity. We can have the biggest surveyed reserves in the world but if the oil is unreachable/too heavy then it is really of little use. If we spend more energy talking it out, refining it and transporting it then its useless. Shale oil is shitty in general. It is basically a good way to convert energy produced by coal or nat gas into gasoline but otherwise it is a waste.

Just look at US oil production: http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRFPUS1&f=M

then compare that chart with world oil production. It is the front end of a bell curve, just like US production was 1920s to 1970s.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:58 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

wow.  I thought it was impossible for someone to be as clueless as you are.  I was wrong.

That you believe this shit you say is utterly amazing.

Reserves do not matter, even your complete bullshit reserves figures.  Flow matters, and more critically net barrels or EROI.

Wow...a gusher in the GOM means that oil production will rise forever.  JFC, how do you get to that conclusion from a blowout spill in the GOM?

It doesn't matter how much oil is THERE, moron, it only matters at the rate we can EXTRACT IT.

Oil consumption is a RATE, ok?

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:15 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

JFC, you're ignorant.

The US produces 5-6mbpd, we consume around 18 right now.

This means that the US has enough domestic production - WHICH IS FALLING AND HAS BEEN SINCE WE PEAKED IN 1970 - to last about 1/3 of any given DAY.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:07 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

Jewms Kunstler is no different in that regard.

I find it laughably odd that he IMPUTES such knowledge to Obama, when the man is very obviously utterly fucking clueless.

Don't EVER confuse erudition for intelligence.  True, they tend to correlate, but one does not prove the other.  And don't assume people know things, when they appear NOT TO.  Downing Effect in play with Jewms.

Jewms is most afraid, if you read his blog, of an anti-jew purge, the so called "cornpone Nazis" that he thinks all non liberal southerners are.  Ironically he has a gun permit to CARRY when he derides the south and all its guns rather frequently.  Basically he is deriding anglosaxon whites who in his mind are all seething racists and violent cretins.

See, Jewms Kunstler can see that 95% of the bankster oligarchs are his cousins and he knows what happened when they collapsed the USSR and took over as the plutocracy there.  Wasn't long before a NATIONALIST took over and these crooks either ended up jailed or running to Israel.  Putin didn't exactly break out the zyklon B, he fairly targeted those who were raping the nation.

Kunstler wants a world according to his design, and he does have some good ideas.  But his ethnicity is a CONSTANT filter to his ability to see the world correctly.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:25 | Link to Comment MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

 

Kunstler wants a world according to his design, and he does have some good ideas.  But his ethnicity is a CONSTANT filter to his ability to see the world correctly. 

I hate your jew hating, you are too smart for it, it puzzles me. But on this, I think you are right.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:04 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

Let's talk about it then:  your basic assumption is incorrect.

I say what I say to provoke a reaction by the use of what some refer to as "hate facts."  In fact, I am speaking the truth and I do so in a way as to provoke a pavlovian response in the audience.

Do me this favor:  review my statements of fact in the abstract.  If you cannot take issue with them, but you still feel uncomfortable reading them, then the problem is not with the facts, it is with you.

I will tell you that ANYONE should have a problem with a notoriously nepotistic and ethnocentric group having a stranglehold on the financial and media sectors.  Do you dispute this?

But, should I attach "jew" to this statement, suddenly, it's a problem, isn't it?  You've been conditioned...

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:40 | Link to Comment citationneeded
citationneeded's picture

May I ask how many jews you know?

I can only speak for myself. I am a 23 year old with a desk job and no power, no family connections, no access to the jewsih elite (which exist and whom I find quite irratating).

You see, would you at least concede that there are many people who are Jewish, have no power over the circumstances, and therefore have fates that are irrevocably tied to how their "tribe" is perceived?

 

If I have not personally harmed you, or anyone for that manner, and there are people who blame me for their problems, am I not allowed to be concered?

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:53 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

why does my personal relationship with jews matter?

You stipulate the existance of the elite.  Good.

I, of course, would concede that many jews are as irrelevant as anybody else.

But, again, I highlighted that Putin did not purge "jews," he purged oligarchs that happened to be dominated by jews.  The people who were not involved were not messed with.

Who is blaming YOU for any problems?  I have not pointed any blame at those other than who are responsible.

You need to differentiate who *I* say is responsible from Kunstler's "corn pone" demagoguery.  Jewms's fear is that people will realize how many of the Fed board is jewish, how the filthy media is dominated by jews, and the racebaiting "advocacy" groups are jewish run and funded and we might have another holocaust.

I think that's a FAIR fear.  The SOLUTION however is not to pretend that white people are all genocidal maniacs.  It's like people being profiled because they match the characteristics of those who have committed crimes.  Whose fault is it?  Is it the profiler or ALL the people who committed the crimes?

The solution is not to pretend that jews don't dominate these parasitical industries, the solution, as I've said to jews that I know, is for JEWS THEMSELVES to clean up their fucking act before some shit happens that they ain't gonna like.

You say you have not harmed "me" but then that there are "people" who blame you.  This is a classic strawman.  I have not blamed you.  So are you concerned about ME or about "people"?

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 15:06 | Link to Comment citationneeded
citationneeded's picture

Thank you for the explanation.

 

I must say, I did not mean to use the strawman fallacy. It is hard when one feels threatened to separate those thoughts. When I read what you write, I am reminded of Kevin MacDonald and TOQ and all that stuff. And the material there varies widely, so I have the pavlovian response, as you put it.

 

However, when you say things like "We have too many jews", a statement you have made in the past, and then also admit that most jews are irrelevant, my fear starts to kick in and the response ensues.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 15:30 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

we have too many jews in finance and media who are wicked people.  I've never said we just plain have too many jews.  But we could surely use more diversity in media, finance, and race hustling.  Ok, maybe we could do without that last one.

It's funny how lack of diversity isn't an issue except if it's anglosaxon dominance of an industry.

As far as Kevin MacDonald, I've read some of his work and I think he is factually fair.  At some point, let's break this down real easy here...jews need to begin to really understand why people historically haven't liked them.  The REAL reasons.  Start with why jews can't stand other jews and work from there.

Likewise, blacks should understand why people are afraid of them.  And whites should understand why asians consider them barbarians and whatnot.  Pretending that the ENTIRE lot of the "other" is utterly irrational, crazy, stupid...look, it's NEVER not you just everybody else.

It does nobody any good to think the Holocaust was caused by some kind of irrational hatred without merit.  That is a whitewash.  It's no more true than that Hutus just decided for no reason to slaughter every Tutsi they could find.

SURE, most of the victims were innocent...but that's not the point.  The point is the root cause.  However, as soon as you go down the road away from "the victim was innocent in the absolute" you start uttering "hate facts."  Someone will chime in with the cloture word "racist" to get you back toeing the line of orthodoxy.

Kunstler is smart enough to KNOW, though he keeps his cards close, WHY the Holocaust happened and he fears the parallels to today.  Why should he fear them if the whole thing had no cause and was reasonless?  In fact, in his blogs he has wondered aloud about what happens when them cornpone natzis wake up to the fact that the power on the Street is 95% jewish.  He's worried that it will be he who is on the train arriving at the Treblinka of the future looking at a nonfunctioning clock handwound to the present time.

Facts should not be threatening...they are just facts.

If people were to call me an asshole...I might ask why they say that but I'm not going to dispute it.  Say I can be aggressive, say that I like conflict or to push buttons...sure.  I appear to be relatively alone in that self-awareness.

You don't have anything to fear from me as I am rare in being able to separate "the perpetrators are jews" from "jews are the perpetrators"...unfortunately, most are not.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 15:21 | Link to Comment kiwidor
kiwidor's picture

You have come to exactly the same conclusion I have -> they need to clean up their act before we have to.

But I have also concluded  that you cannot easily convert a genome. 

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 15:47 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

I suppose.

But, I have some sympathy for jews...K. MacDonald describes some fair typical characteristics of aggressive interpersonal behavior, high IQ, etc...that I happen to share.

However, I don't blame regular people for disliking these things.  I recognize that they aren't likeable, that I don't "play well in groups," etc.  It is what it is.

However, on the flipside, it is NOT ACCIDENT that the positions of significance in finance and media are nearly 100% jewish.  It's not.  To claim that this is for reasons other than nepotism is absurd in the extreme.  There are ample smart-enough anglosaxons that it is not jewish IQ dominance either.  One really need only look at the history of invention and science to see that it was dominated by Europeans from Tesla, a slav, to Mendeleev, to Lavoisier, to Newton.  Jews disproportionate as they do in high IQ; I've got no problem with this.  But a 95% jewish FRB is a sign of nepotism, plain and simple.

Hell there are posters to this forum who've described what many of us have seen, that the tribe sticks together.

I say, so what?  Ok, so perhaps it is time for every "group" to themselves, what, like in prison?  I mean I watched some prison tattoo show last night talking about "white supremacist" prison gangs.  Newsflash...they aren't white supremacists.  They are a gang that banded together along ethnic lines just as black and latino gangs do in the joint.  If you don't band together, you will be cut off and killed.  These criminals aren't SMART ENOUGH to consider themselves supreme at anything and they all admit they joined the AB because on day one a black gang beat the shit out of them.

I really would hope that someday humanity can get beyond all this tribalist shit.  As of now, everyone tribes up except WASPs, because that is RACISM.  We need to pick either this tribal shit for everyone or else no tribalism for anyone and start judging people on individual merit.

Tutsis formed the disproportionate dominant group in the Rwandan ruling class.  They were backed by certain colonial powers.  They tended to be taller and lighter skinned than the Hutu majority.  I mean, easy shit here, DO THE MATH.  Obviously, among the 1% that controlled the country, the vast majority were Tutsis.  Most tutsis were not in that 1% of the population that controlled, but when TSHTF, facts go out the window.  It became US against THEM.  This is how holocausts happen

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 23:32 | Link to Comment Wyndtunnel
Wyndtunnel's picture

Well spoken Trav.  Well spoken.  People can't handle the truth... We're all doomed to die alone on this shit hole we call Earth anyways...  Too bad. There really is some great scenery here. I have to admit that I do enjoy the madness... It amuses me that despite being so certain of their supremacy and the specialness of their God given mandate to rule the Earth that the vast majority of people on the planet will perish without really ever being much more conscious than a plant that follows the sun.  That's all most of us do really.. We follow the heat. We eat, we fuck, we shit. We sleep. We kill each other and we die.  Everything else is just filler.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 17:36 | Link to Comment mkkby
mkkby's picture

Trav, the problem with you is you can speak intelligently about finance and science, then you turn retard and spout racism.  Yes, you are WRONG, because you are painting large, annonymous groups with a broad brush.  There are millions of jews and perhaps a handful are your elitists.  And you know it so don't even bother arguing.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 18:16 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

Racism?  LOL.

Where?  I painted with a brush where?

Salivate some more for me, dog.  Your bell is ringing.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 23:02 | Link to Comment Andy Lewis
Andy Lewis's picture

Fuck off and die, Nazi filth.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:04 | Link to Comment augmister
augmister's picture

There is anti-Semitism in the world because of Jews like Kunt-sler, Bernanke, Rubin and Summers....

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 16:53 | Link to Comment zelter
zelter's picture

http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19990215,00.html

Vhat, you mean this didn't work out?

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 15:05 | Link to Comment kiwidor
kiwidor's picture

There's no hatred in there at all, just observation.  Which does give weight to the assertion that you have been conditioned, MsCreant.

More disturbing is that you associate Trav's superior intelligence with some kind of convenience filter ->because he is smart, he should fall for the jew propaganda. 

While there are groups (like skinheads) who are populated by normal to below average IQ'rs, most people I know who have recognised the collective pathological behaviour of jews are in the  =>2 SD range on the general reasoning tests, and these are the folks jews love to hate. 

If you really want to get a grip on the subject, you should read Kevin MacDonald's work.  

 

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:29 | Link to Comment BobPaulson
BobPaulson's picture

Though I'm against his highly biased and pro-Israeli stance, I don't think your argument is assisted by anti-Jewish comments. Seriously, many of the things you say make sense but when you mix it with talk that sounds like it's from the 30's, frankly I worry. I worry that the current anti-bank sentiment could be twisted (again) into something racist and then end up not fixing the banking corruption issues.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:12 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

Please do me a favor, then...point out SPECIFICALLY the anti-jewish statements I made in the above-referenced argument.

After you fail to do so, because there actually weren't any, please reflect on how your own conditioning led you to believe that I was making anti-jewish statements.

What was it, the reference to Zyklon B?  Calling him Jewms?  Or was it the use in any manner of the word "jew."  I've ofted noted that even using jew instead of "jewish" starts to provoke this kind of pavlovian response.  Sorry, but at some point you got mindfucked and have started reacting to things that actually aren't there.  It's important to be dispassionate.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:32 | Link to Comment BobPaulson
BobPaulson's picture

Actually yes, calling him Jewms is the first one. The second one is your use of the term "and his cousins". If you can't see this as racist then I doubt there is much point in arguing with you.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 15:02 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

Excellent!

I hope people like MsCreant are reading this exchange as a case in point.

You initially claimed I made "anti-jewish" statements.

Then, when asked to SPECIFICALLY point out the antijewish statements, you could not and fell back to a classic CLOTURE tactic of generic accusation of racism.

I called him "jewms" and called the banksters his "cousins."  Kunstler is a jew.  Calling him jewms was merely pointing out his ethnicity.  As a relatively small and ethnocentric group, the banksters really ARE his cousins.

NEITHER of these statements was anti-jewish.  Yet even when confronted with these PLAIN FACTS, you cannot RESIST throwing out the "well if you don't think this is racist, then I won't talk to you."

Buddy, you got mindfucked somewhere along the way and you aren't thinking straight.  You had a pavlovian reaction to my original post, responded with a conditioned response, and when I specifically asked you to review your evidence for corroboration, you encountered cognitive dissonance.  This is a sign that you are having trouble reconciling your emotions with your logic.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 15:25 | Link to Comment Alienated Serf
Alienated Serf's picture

Good point bro!  I often throw Mick and Drunk into my supervisor's name, you know, just to point out he is Irish.  No idea why he got pissed and called HR on me.

 

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 15:54 | Link to Comment BobPaulson
BobPaulson's picture

Exactly. He must be "mindfucked".

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 18:20 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

yeah...except for the fact that I didn't use a single ethnic slur or make a single derogatory reference to the jew class of persons.

Not one.

Which is why I have REPEATEDLY asked anyone who takes issue to SPECIFICALLY point out the anti-jewish statements in my post.

Normally, I would laugh out loud and tell you drooling dogs to simply STFU, but I respect MsCreant and am proving a point.

You are salivating to a fucking BELL.  The evidence is right there in front of you, EXAMINE IT.  Face the truth.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 15:56 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

LOL.  You know one of my very good oldest friends is a Jap and we make fun of each other all the time.  I make atomic bomb jokes and he says white people are more like apes.

I think diversity is a thing that should be made fun of...class characteristics say nothing about individuals and vice versa.

What is most troubling is this indian friend of mine at work often makes off color racial statements in the elevator and people laugh.  Soon as I follow up, as a white man, you can basically FEEL the discomfort in the elevator.

I could see had I called him "Jewms Kikestler" or something that somebody might have a point, but I haven't used any ethnic slurs yet.  I only use those on good friends...like Gran Torino

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 19:47 | Link to Comment Alienated Serf
Alienated Serf's picture

Slightly off color sarcasm doesn't exactly translate well in posts.  Perhaps you are not as bright as we thought if that has not occurred to you. 

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:07 | Link to Comment Econolingus
Econolingus's picture

"Don't EVER confuse erudition for intelligence."

Nor racist rants with erudition...

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:42 | Link to Comment DiverCity
DiverCity's picture

And because you say it's raaaaaacist, it must self-evidently be so, right?

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:46 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

no, racist is a word people like him use to cloture the statement of facts they wish weren't true.

The label no longer has any meaning.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 15:22 | Link to Comment DiverCity
DiverCity's picture

"The label no longer has any meaning."

 

Indeed.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 15:49 | Link to Comment Alienated Serf
Alienated Serf's picture

Please read up on hatred of economic elites in other parts of the world (Chinese in SE Asia, Indians in Africa etc.), they always become the scapegoat.  The Jews do not have special powers that others do not.  Unfortunately you are blinded by hate and can not think rationally on this matter; which is surprising since you generally make sense with your arguments.  You are obviosly susceptible to the divide and conquer strategy.  "Hey look, its these guys fault, look!" While you get robbed blind.

Let the guilty, regardless of ethnicity pay, if it is a lot of Jews, so be it.

Until then, you keep fightin the good fight for southern, protestant white males, who clearly are the real Chosen People.

 

 

 

 

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 16:12 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

excuse me, are you talking to me??

Because if you were then is this some kind of a joke?

The economic elites are not a scapegoat, they are to blame.

I think I have said, oh...I dunno...a THOUSAND TIMES that the guilty pay regardless of ethnicity and that is EXACTLY what Putin did.

His oligarchs were jailed or fled to Israel.  That's a fact, I mean you can put it in your pipe and smoke it.  If we get a Putin here, the same thing will occur, a lot of fleeing to Israel by former oligarchs. 

The rest of your stupid post is so shoddily worded and dissonant in its kneejerk accusations that it's not worth responding to.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 11:51 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Flat earth!!!!!! Hot earth! Crowded earth!

Hardly. Eh? 

Local, bricks, mortar, neighbour, community....

And micro-corporations....

ORI

http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:44 | Link to Comment Walter_Sobchak
Walter_Sobchak's picture

Must you always be so cryptic?

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:52 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Yes.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 11:51 | Link to Comment NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

right, now this is all the fault of Christians

how much more evidence do you need that liberalism is a mental disease

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:31 | Link to Comment NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

LOL look liberals flock to the junk light like bugs

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:45 | Link to Comment High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

Wow! Three junks already. You pissed in the cornflakes of the coolaid drinkers.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 16:47 | Link to Comment NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

its time for tyler to set up a koolaid sandbox.  every morn he can set up several topics - obama, christians, jews etc and then all the junkers can throw sand, koolaid and hate at each other in the box.

why are liberals so bitter and angry; their guy is running the show and they are more miserable than ever

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 16:50 | Link to Comment NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

LOL tyler should set up a sandbox. each morn he can post a topic - love obama, christians, jews etc and then let the trolls throw sand and hate at each other - keep them occupied.

why are liberals so miserable? their guy is running the fire, er, show

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:03 | Link to Comment greenbear
greenbear's picture

None. 

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 11:53 | Link to Comment NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

people like this will be blaming Bush and Cheney to the gates of hell

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:26 | Link to Comment GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

and you'll be pleading their innocence... don't let those pearly gates hit your ass on the way out!

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:47 | Link to Comment High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

Bush and Cheney belong at the end of a rope just like most of them. It makes me sick to see Bush surface after two years going around talking up his stupid book, that he probably didn't write, since this graduate of Harvard and Yale can't even utter a sentence that makes any sense.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:55 | Link to Comment High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

deleted

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 11:53 | Link to Comment fiftybagger
fiftybagger's picture

This guy's a moron, go away JHK and take your Malthusian BS with you....

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 11:54 | Link to Comment putbuyer
putbuyer's picture

There is plenty of oil. Let me know when we hit peak beer!

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:02 | Link to Comment barkster
barkster's picture

+1

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:52 | Link to Comment Problem Is
Problem Is's picture

Don't Worry putbuyer...
As long as you have hops, yeast, some sort of grain, glass jars, a big pot and some firewood...

You can always make beer...

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:59 | Link to Comment DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

it's older than bread

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 16:27 | Link to Comment Byte Me
Byte Me's picture

Showing that our ancestors had their priorities sorted out.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:51 | Link to Comment High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

Is that Dos Equis or Tres Equis or Carte Blanca?

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 11:55 | Link to Comment Pining for the ...
Pining for the Fjords's picture

"the net effect for now is ... more cognitive dissonance"

Despite the controversial nature of his thesis, I think all ZH can agree that more Cognitive Dissonance is a good thing.   ;)

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 11:56 | Link to Comment zaphod
zaphod's picture

Or before taking 5 generational steps backwards people will embrace nuclear energy which is abundant for a very very long time.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:58 | Link to Comment TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Come on now, engineers and scientists don't know anything about physics.  That's crazy talk.   All they know about is oil, because that's all Exxonburton allows to be taught in physics or chemistry classes anymore!   Nucular Smookular.    There, I said it.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 11:58 | Link to Comment goldmiddelfinger
goldmiddelfinger's picture

Abiotic oil fools ! Surely you don't think there are THAT many dead dinosaurs!

http://sdai-tech1.blogspot.com/2010/06/abiotic-oil-secret-of-bp-oil-spill.html

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:06 | Link to Comment melachiro
melachiro's picture

+1

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:54 | Link to Comment DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

even if it was abiotic, were using it up a lot faster than production.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:57 | Link to Comment High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

Yes that is what the oil companies say, kind of like diamonds. There are plenty of diamonds too, but they control production and distribution , to control the price.

 

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:31 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

You're right.

Mexico's STATE oil company, PEMEX, LET Cantarell's production crash from a peak of 2.1mbpd to 500kbpd because they really WANT less revenue.

There is no getting through to idiots like you, is there?

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:06 | Link to Comment Tortfeasor
Tortfeasor's picture

Kunstler is a central planning hack.  At least his enemies have the excuse of being "paid".  He is his own apologist, going as far as to convince himself that O was anything other than a p.o.s.

Liking the shout-out to Cog-Dis, though.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:16 | Link to Comment NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

I always refer to these people as "self-propelled tools," a.k.a., evil-do(good)ers.

For whatever reason, he completely fails to understand the complex, self-structuring order known as chaos.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:08 | Link to Comment Tortfeasor
Tortfeasor's picture

Self-propelled tools - I like it

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:08 | Link to Comment Salah
Salah's picture

Been following 'Kunt-sler' for years; guy's a serious elitist asshole, with a messanic complex that couldn't fit in the Superdome.  He's been consistently wrong on everything.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:09 | Link to Comment TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Yeah, get a load of the sentence saying he's already outlived Mozart and a list other Appropriate Geniuses.  This is the type of person who, if ever put in power, would be thinking up various sorts of final solutions to favor the right sort of outcome for the right sort of people, his sort.   As he doesn't have any power, he's dreaming of some righteous external force coming to flatten his hated enemies, the unwashed, in a Great Comeuppance that must come.  

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:08 | Link to Comment YHWH
YHWH's picture

I'll never understand how Thomas Friedman became so 'influential' in the first place. 

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:01 | Link to Comment High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

Its kind of like how did a asshole like Krugman can win a Nobel Prize.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:12 | Link to Comment TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

How about a president-for-a-month winning a Nobel Peace Prize?   Arafat was far worse than Obama, so I don't think Obama had come to deserve it yet.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:27 | Link to Comment High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

Yes you are correct. President Barry did win a Nobel Peace Prize, even though  he is chump in chief of wars against innocent people , wars that never end. Yeh some change and some peace.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:11 | Link to Comment Ragnarok
Ragnarok's picture

What a fucking tool, Oregon is a borderline communist state where you can't even build a barn without a permit.

 

Here's your answer dickwadd: Micro-Hydro generation for electricity and hydrogen production.

 

Guide to Hydro-power

http://www.canyonhydro.com/guide/index.html

 

Micro-plant:

http://www.canyonhydro.com/micro/

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:40 | Link to Comment Problem Is
Problem Is's picture

" Oregon is a borderline communist state where you can't even build a barn without a permit."

Are You Fucking Joking?
The only building code in Oregon is... THERE ARE NO BUILDING CODES IN OREGON.

Oregon: What's a Building Inspector?
I have seen (many within city and town limits):

  1. Houses without foundations...
  2. Houses with half foundation half no foundation...
  3. Hillbilly add-ons with corrugated metal...
  4. Out of square, slanting sinking add-ons...
  5. Multiple roofing materials...
  6. Salvaged siding materials (Asbestos shingles are popular)...
  7. Home idiot wiring...
  8. Home idiot woodstove install...
  9. Dug out basements (pa and his shovel)...
  10. Home made septic (pa and his shovel)...
  11. Clear cutting above existing homes (it rains there... think mudslide)...

Compared to the relative uniformity of Calif building codes... Oregon is shanty town USA...

I will name you some towns, Ragnarok and you can go see for your self...

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:07 | Link to Comment Ragnarok
Ragnarok's picture

My family seriously considered buying 1200 acres of farm/ranchland with the purpose of building a large house, barn and dam in Oregon (longer growing season on the west side of the Rockies).  We found that doing anything legally was pretty much impossible.

 

http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/16375/Oregon_Voters_Move_to_P...

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:14 | Link to Comment Problem Is
Problem Is's picture

I can see how the dam/reservoir would be an issue.

Did you look at buying a parcel with existing home and barn? Demolish and rebuild on the original foot prints? Did you ask an Oregon land use attorney about that option?

All up and down the southern Oregon coast such properties are available. Coos, Curry counties are cash strapped. Brookings is consider almost a banana belt for agriculture. Farther up cranberries, blueberries are profitable.

And yes, Oregon is Washington state and Calif's red headed step child. They don't like out of staters much... penile envy...

That land use legislation was essentially to keep Portland and the I5 corridor from sprawling out over Willamette valley rich ag land. Every state has that to some degree. Calif also has subdivision restrictions on large ag acreage.

I would say look for an existing rundown farm property. Wait a little longer for prices to drop further. Southern Oregon inflated with the housing bubble as retired Calif made their unwelcomed presence...

Then hire the local attorney to go into the Coos or Curry or Douglass or Josephine (depending on your land taste)  and shmooze and see how they stand on rebuilds. Those counties are so cash strapped they need the permit fees...

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:03 | Link to Comment High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

People in Oregon love Californians , this much I know.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:27 | Link to Comment Problem Is
Problem Is's picture

Drifter Speaks Truth...
Oregon is Calif and Washington state's red headed step child...

They don't like us passing through their state... they just want us to leave money...

Of Course, It Could Be Jokes Like:
Q: How do you circumcise an Oregonian?
A: Kick his sister in the jaw...

That joke is from Gurley Crum Sr., Oregonian (Of course he inserted Californian where I inserted Oregonian)...

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:11 | Link to Comment Beard of Zeus
Beard of Zeus's picture

Kunstler seems pretty hostile toward Christians and Southerners, which I guess isn't that surprising coming from someone from the tribe.

The reason Dixieland might see violence and political disorder is not because of "Cracker Culture," but because of the large numbers of blacks in the region. If white Southerners are prone to violence, it's because they have to be.

Kunstler is clueless. In the coming collapse, people who are able and willing to use violence will PREVAIL.

McCain, "lunatic right-wing"? McCain is about as left-liberal as they come.

In the coming anarchy, political terms such as "Left" and "Right" will be meaningless. All that will matter is what tribe, or group, you belong to.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:22 | Link to Comment hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

In the coming anarchy, political terms such as "Left" and "Right" will be meaningless.

Not necessarily so.  Come left three mils.  Come right five mils.  Et cetera.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 12:55 | Link to Comment Bam_Man
Bam_Man's picture

And "Fire for effect."

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:05 | Link to Comment High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

Does that giant sucking sound cause a wind problem?

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:13 | Link to Comment hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

No problem.  That is what the mil dots on the x-axis of the reticle are for, and if the wind is consistent enough, then a few clicks on the windage turret and you are good to go.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:07 | Link to Comment Rotwang
Rotwang's picture

Would work a lot better on a handtooled milling machine. Perhaps something useful would come of it.

Have you actually considered what the 'inefficiency overburden' would be, if all farmers tilling needed 4 loafers at the cardinal points looking outward, diddling with their windage and turrets. Get a clue.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:37 | Link to Comment hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

In your hypothetical situation, someone with a clue might figure out that a single sentry in a central OP would significantly decrease the, "inefficiency overburden," whatever that is.  The farmers could rotate as sentry, with the others having their rifle nearby should an alarm be raised.  This cross capability obviates the need for your, "loafers."

For what it is worth, I am no fan of a world where subsistence farming is de rigueur. However, I do agree with Thomas Jefferson's statement:

"When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."

Historically, governments have not feared people working at milling machines.  They have regarded them more as sheep.  The world needs wolves, too, or at least armed sheep.  No?

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 14:52 | Link to Comment Rotwang
Rotwang's picture

"inefficiency overburden":

farmer:sentry

carpenter:building inspector.

Hope it makes some sense.

Rotate as sentry? I guess if the farmer also has the ability of a 4 inch group at 500 yards. And of course the sentry knows how not to warp the axle on the tractor, or bog down. :)

TJ said a lot of good things.

Actually, government fears people 'not' working at milling machines, or anywhere else for that matter. The 'general strike', or just a 'slow down' puts all kinds of fear in governments, as does showing up at the teller window and asking for cash.

Government fears people for many reasons, one being a collective 'fuck this shit', pronounced loud enough and in volume. To avoid this condition all kinds of pallatives are employed preventively. Even an election every other year to vent some steam.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 15:12 | Link to Comment hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

farmer:sentry

Friend, I would venture to say that every man and woman, no matter what his or her profession, might want to develop some of the habits and skills of a sentry.  You might say it is inefficient, but I will call it wise.

Peace be with you.

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 16:37 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

totally ludicrous.  Worthless.  Pointless.

what happens when a tank shows up or more people than you can shoot with one rifle?

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 17:25 | Link to Comment hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

I was referring to our everyday life of parking garages, shopping centers, city parks, hospitals, etc.  Wandering around in condition white all day isn't the smartest approach to life.  We all could learn to be more on the look out for trouble.  No?

In addition, it is a hypothetical farm.  This is, afterall, a Kunstler thread.

In your hypothetical situation, someone with a clue might figure out that a single sentry in a central OP would significantly decrease the, "inefficiency overburden," whatever that is.  The farmers could rotate as sentry, with the others having their rifle nearby should an alarm be raised.  This cross capability obviates the need for your, "loafers."

If you want to learn how to handle tanks, then I suggest you read Rawles book, "Patriots."

Wed, 11/17/2010 - 17:36 | Link to Comment Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

I agree.  While we can't ever guarentee total safety or security - we can sure make ourselves a more difficult target.

Luck favors the prepared - and if your preps won't get it done for you - you may just be fk'd.  But that's not an argument for not prepping in the first place.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!