Chris Martenson And James Howard Kunstler Explain How "The World is Going to Get Rounder and Bigger Again"

Tyler Durden's picture

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Citxmech's picture

Regarding Frank Herbert, a science fiction writer:  (from wiki) "[Herbert's]career as a novelist began with the publication of The Dragon in the Sea in 1955, where he used the environment of a 21st century submarine as a means to explore sanity and madness. The book predicted worldwide conflicts over oil consumption and production."

Here's another quote from an actual scientist of some regard:

"It has often been said that, if the human species fails to make a go of it here on Earth, some other species will take over the running. In the sense of developing high intelligence this is not correct. We have, or soon will have, exhausted the necessary physical prerequisites so far as this planet is concerned. With coal gone, oil gone, high-grade metallic ores gone, no species however competent can make the long climb from primitive conditions to high-level technology. This is a one-shot affair. If we fail, this planetary system fails so far as intelligence is concerned. The same will be true of other planetary systems. On each of them there will be one chance, and one chance only. (Hoyle, 1964)"

It is a fallacy to argue that because science has "saved us" in the past, that it will continue to be able to do so inperpetuity.

Regardless of what advances may, or may not be on the horizon, I would trust what the actual scientist who are supposed to come up with said paradigm-shifting advances have to say on the subject, rather than hopefuls with little real training in the sciences.

As I stated before in another thread, my scientist friends (wife included) are all substantially more worried about our future than my non-scientist friends who have the audacity to lay the ever more difficult burden of "fixing things" on their shoulders. 

 This should be informative.

trav7777's picture

Heart?  I am ALL HEART MUTHAFUCKA

Anyway, movie quotes aside, I like your scifi writer's total head up ass polyanna shit.  It makes me weep, man, it really does.

Feel free to walk around with your head in the clouds dreaming up antigravity while those of us with ACTUAL engineering degrees understand that there is NO WAY out of the 2nd Law.

You don't have a solution; you have a lot of crazy bullshit, but that's ok.  We need crazy bullshitters like you, as it takes all kinds in the village.

Your dipshit scifi writer saw no laws that were unchanging?  Then, to be totally blunt, HE'S AN IDIOT with NO SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE whatsoever.  Physical laws are physical laws, whether or not his dumb ass saw them.

The laws of motion haven't changed in several hundred years; tweaked by Relativity, yes, but changed?  Swept away?  NO.  For all intents and purposes F STILL = MA.

This might surprise you but the way shit works is governed by physical laws which do not change.  Atoms are still bound by the same forces as they were 10 billion years ago and will be 10 billion from now.

What really is insignificant is all this stupid human imagination...it's really arrogance more than anything else.  Its pinnacle appears to be your notion that you have solutions for everything.  Amazingly, nobody is taking you up on them.

Wyndtunnel's picture

+666  Trav, I seriously love your aggressive stance... Keep up the good work!!  

Hulk's picture


Resonant Storage and Extraction Systems.

Like our bodies. ATP replication system. But mechanical.

The possibilities if we allow ourselves to be bold, are limitle..

 

Complete and utter nonsense...I suggest you grab your shoelaces and try and place your feet on the ceiling...

Econolingus's picture

"As oil runs out,we will transition to cheaper sources of energy."  Because, of course, capitalism dictates that the most expensive system inputs be utilized first. 

Your argument fails from its premise, and your conclusion is moronic:  "space colonization"?  Are you serious?  And this is necessary why?

1100-TACTICAL-12's picture

AS oil runs we will transition, but cheaper I think not... The only thing's getting cheaper will be whores & politicians....

the rookie cynic's picture

Cheap energy is gone. No doubt some of the energy sources you site will contribute eventually, but it's not going to be enough. Not nearly enough.

I posted this later in thread, but I wanted to make sure tmosley saw it:

 

Right now alternative/renewable energy sources produce about 9 quadrillion BTUs a year. Sounds like a lot right? Not!

Estimates are that by 2035 we’ll need 739 quadrillion BTUs to sustain world population at that time. 

Economically recoverable oil will be mostly depleted by then I think. We won’t make up the shortfall without a radical change in energy policy and production.

Go here for summary of the energy situation with real numbers.

http://fora.tv/2009/01/16/Saul_Griffith_Climate_Change_Recalculated#fullprogram

Perhaps a better heading for the discussion is "Peak Energy".  Fossil fuels represent millions of years of collected solar energy - a windfall of monumental proportions. Replacing that will be a miracle (i.e. fusion).

Peak oil is an important issue. Deny it at your peril.

http://therookiecynic.wordpress.com/2010/10/03/coming-soon-to-a-neighbor...

GoinFawr's picture

Totally agree with you NOTW777, they all should have voted for Ralph Nader. That was your point, right?

High Plains Drifter's picture

Peak oil? Good grief Kunstler, is that all you got?  Give me a break. The United States has enough oil to last it for hundreds of years. Why don't you talk about the FED Kunstler?  Does it hurt real bad, knowing that most if not all of the damage is being done by members of your tribe?  I bet it does. But that is ok. We will deal with it. Do we have any other choice?  No.

TumblingDice's picture

The United States has enough oil to last it for hundreds of years.

The reserves/production ratio for the US is ten years. The rpr for the world is 40 years. Just because someone is wrongly situated on one side of the debate, like this clown apparently being a pro fed dolt, it doesn't mean that the content of his ideas is wrong. Bernie Sanders comes to mind. The self proclaimed socialist and a silly guy all in all, lead an audit of the fed in the Senate.

High Plains Drifter's picture

Sir, we have enough oil at the North Slope of Alaska to last us from that plac alone for 200 years. Guess who owns that oil production? Can you say BHP? I knew you could. Ever heard of them?  They are Rothschild company. They recently in the last few years found huge oil bearing deposits in the North Dakota area. Have you heard much about this? Well of course not. Google it and read about it. Not to mention the Gulf of Mexico. Did you forget the gusher that was out there a few short months ago? There is more oil in the gulf of Mexico than in Saudi Arabia. Sorry, but the oil shortage is a scam. I respectfully disagree with the oil shortage argument.

http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/next-energy-news2.13s.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14678206/ns/business-oil_and_energy

In my opinion, after reading about this, is that oil does not come from fossils. The problem in the gulf is that the oil is located at very difficult depths with the obvious problems that go with discoveries at those depths.

peak oil scam

http://internet-scam-busters.com/tag/peak-oil

http://hubpages.com/hub/America-Has-More-Oil-Than-Saudi-Arabia

The defense rest.

TumblingDice's picture

The goofy 400 billion barrels estimate cited in your first link was never peer reviewed. Here is the latest USGS assesment (~3.65 billion barrels)

http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1911

The quality of the oil you are talking about is just as important as quanity. We can have the biggest surveyed reserves in the world but if the oil is unreachable/too heavy then it is really of little use. If we spend more energy talking it out, refining it and transporting it then its useless. Shale oil is shitty in general. It is basically a good way to convert energy produced by coal or nat gas into gasoline but otherwise it is a waste.

Just look at US oil production: http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRFPUS1&f=M

then compare that chart with world oil production. It is the front end of a bell curve, just like US production was 1920s to 1970s.

trav7777's picture

wow.  I thought it was impossible for someone to be as clueless as you are.  I was wrong.

That you believe this shit you say is utterly amazing.

Reserves do not matter, even your complete bullshit reserves figures.  Flow matters, and more critically net barrels or EROI.

Wow...a gusher in the GOM means that oil production will rise forever.  JFC, how do you get to that conclusion from a blowout spill in the GOM?

It doesn't matter how much oil is THERE, moron, it only matters at the rate we can EXTRACT IT.

Oil consumption is a RATE, ok?

trav7777's picture

JFC, you're ignorant.

The US produces 5-6mbpd, we consume around 18 right now.

This means that the US has enough domestic production - WHICH IS FALLING AND HAS BEEN SINCE WE PEAKED IN 1970 - to last about 1/3 of any given DAY.

trav7777's picture

Jewms Kunstler is no different in that regard.

I find it laughably odd that he IMPUTES such knowledge to Obama, when the man is very obviously utterly fucking clueless.

Don't EVER confuse erudition for intelligence.  True, they tend to correlate, but one does not prove the other.  And don't assume people know things, when they appear NOT TO.  Downing Effect in play with Jewms.

Jewms is most afraid, if you read his blog, of an anti-jew purge, the so called "cornpone Nazis" that he thinks all non liberal southerners are.  Ironically he has a gun permit to CARRY when he derides the south and all its guns rather frequently.  Basically he is deriding anglosaxon whites who in his mind are all seething racists and violent cretins.

See, Jewms Kunstler can see that 95% of the bankster oligarchs are his cousins and he knows what happened when they collapsed the USSR and took over as the plutocracy there.  Wasn't long before a NATIONALIST took over and these crooks either ended up jailed or running to Israel.  Putin didn't exactly break out the zyklon B, he fairly targeted those who were raping the nation.

Kunstler wants a world according to his design, and he does have some good ideas.  But his ethnicity is a CONSTANT filter to his ability to see the world correctly.

MsCreant's picture

 

Kunstler wants a world according to his design, and he does have some good ideas.  But his ethnicity is a CONSTANT filter to his ability to see the world correctly. 

I hate your jew hating, you are too smart for it, it puzzles me. But on this, I think you are right.

trav7777's picture

Let's talk about it then:  your basic assumption is incorrect.

I say what I say to provoke a reaction by the use of what some refer to as "hate facts."  In fact, I am speaking the truth and I do so in a way as to provoke a pavlovian response in the audience.

Do me this favor:  review my statements of fact in the abstract.  If you cannot take issue with them, but you still feel uncomfortable reading them, then the problem is not with the facts, it is with you.

I will tell you that ANYONE should have a problem with a notoriously nepotistic and ethnocentric group having a stranglehold on the financial and media sectors.  Do you dispute this?

But, should I attach "jew" to this statement, suddenly, it's a problem, isn't it?  You've been conditioned...

citationneeded's picture

May I ask how many jews you know?

I can only speak for myself. I am a 23 year old with a desk job and no power, no family connections, no access to the jewsih elite (which exist and whom I find quite irratating).

You see, would you at least concede that there are many people who are Jewish, have no power over the circumstances, and therefore have fates that are irrevocably tied to how their "tribe" is perceived?

 

If I have not personally harmed you, or anyone for that manner, and there are people who blame me for their problems, am I not allowed to be concered?

trav7777's picture

why does my personal relationship with jews matter?

You stipulate the existance of the elite.  Good.

I, of course, would concede that many jews are as irrelevant as anybody else.

But, again, I highlighted that Putin did not purge "jews," he purged oligarchs that happened to be dominated by jews.  The people who were not involved were not messed with.

Who is blaming YOU for any problems?  I have not pointed any blame at those other than who are responsible.

You need to differentiate who *I* say is responsible from Kunstler's "corn pone" demagoguery.  Jewms's fear is that people will realize how many of the Fed board is jewish, how the filthy media is dominated by jews, and the racebaiting "advocacy" groups are jewish run and funded and we might have another holocaust.

I think that's a FAIR fear.  The SOLUTION however is not to pretend that white people are all genocidal maniacs.  It's like people being profiled because they match the characteristics of those who have committed crimes.  Whose fault is it?  Is it the profiler or ALL the people who committed the crimes?

The solution is not to pretend that jews don't dominate these parasitical industries, the solution, as I've said to jews that I know, is for JEWS THEMSELVES to clean up their fucking act before some shit happens that they ain't gonna like.

You say you have not harmed "me" but then that there are "people" who blame you.  This is a classic strawman.  I have not blamed you.  So are you concerned about ME or about "people"?

citationneeded's picture

Thank you for the explanation.

 

I must say, I did not mean to use the strawman fallacy. It is hard when one feels threatened to separate those thoughts. When I read what you write, I am reminded of Kevin MacDonald and TOQ and all that stuff. And the material there varies widely, so I have the pavlovian response, as you put it.

 

However, when you say things like "We have too many jews", a statement you have made in the past, and then also admit that most jews are irrelevant, my fear starts to kick in and the response ensues.

trav7777's picture

we have too many jews in finance and media who are wicked people.  I've never said we just plain have too many jews.  But we could surely use more diversity in media, finance, and race hustling.  Ok, maybe we could do without that last one.

It's funny how lack of diversity isn't an issue except if it's anglosaxon dominance of an industry.

As far as Kevin MacDonald, I've read some of his work and I think he is factually fair.  At some point, let's break this down real easy here...jews need to begin to really understand why people historically haven't liked them.  The REAL reasons.  Start with why jews can't stand other jews and work from there.

Likewise, blacks should understand why people are afraid of them.  And whites should understand why asians consider them barbarians and whatnot.  Pretending that the ENTIRE lot of the "other" is utterly irrational, crazy, stupid...look, it's NEVER not you just everybody else.

It does nobody any good to think the Holocaust was caused by some kind of irrational hatred without merit.  That is a whitewash.  It's no more true than that Hutus just decided for no reason to slaughter every Tutsi they could find.

SURE, most of the victims were innocent...but that's not the point.  The point is the root cause.  However, as soon as you go down the road away from "the victim was innocent in the absolute" you start uttering "hate facts."  Someone will chime in with the cloture word "racist" to get you back toeing the line of orthodoxy.

Kunstler is smart enough to KNOW, though he keeps his cards close, WHY the Holocaust happened and he fears the parallels to today.  Why should he fear them if the whole thing had no cause and was reasonless?  In fact, in his blogs he has wondered aloud about what happens when them cornpone natzis wake up to the fact that the power on the Street is 95% jewish.  He's worried that it will be he who is on the train arriving at the Treblinka of the future looking at a nonfunctioning clock handwound to the present time.

Facts should not be threatening...they are just facts.

If people were to call me an asshole...I might ask why they say that but I'm not going to dispute it.  Say I can be aggressive, say that I like conflict or to push buttons...sure.  I appear to be relatively alone in that self-awareness.

You don't have anything to fear from me as I am rare in being able to separate "the perpetrators are jews" from "jews are the perpetrators"...unfortunately, most are not.

kiwidor's picture

You have come to exactly the same conclusion I have -> they need to clean up their act before we have to.

But I have also concluded  that you cannot easily convert a genome. 

trav7777's picture

I suppose.

But, I have some sympathy for jews...K. MacDonald describes some fair typical characteristics of aggressive interpersonal behavior, high IQ, etc...that I happen to share.

However, I don't blame regular people for disliking these things.  I recognize that they aren't likeable, that I don't "play well in groups," etc.  It is what it is.

However, on the flipside, it is NOT ACCIDENT that the positions of significance in finance and media are nearly 100% jewish.  It's not.  To claim that this is for reasons other than nepotism is absurd in the extreme.  There are ample smart-enough anglosaxons that it is not jewish IQ dominance either.  One really need only look at the history of invention and science to see that it was dominated by Europeans from Tesla, a slav, to Mendeleev, to Lavoisier, to Newton.  Jews disproportionate as they do in high IQ; I've got no problem with this.  But a 95% jewish FRB is a sign of nepotism, plain and simple.

Hell there are posters to this forum who've described what many of us have seen, that the tribe sticks together.

I say, so what?  Ok, so perhaps it is time for every "group" to themselves, what, like in prison?  I mean I watched some prison tattoo show last night talking about "white supremacist" prison gangs.  Newsflash...they aren't white supremacists.  They are a gang that banded together along ethnic lines just as black and latino gangs do in the joint.  If you don't band together, you will be cut off and killed.  These criminals aren't SMART ENOUGH to consider themselves supreme at anything and they all admit they joined the AB because on day one a black gang beat the shit out of them.

I really would hope that someday humanity can get beyond all this tribalist shit.  As of now, everyone tribes up except WASPs, because that is RACISM.  We need to pick either this tribal shit for everyone or else no tribalism for anyone and start judging people on individual merit.

Tutsis formed the disproportionate dominant group in the Rwandan ruling class.  They were backed by certain colonial powers.  They tended to be taller and lighter skinned than the Hutu majority.  I mean, easy shit here, DO THE MATH.  Obviously, among the 1% that controlled the country, the vast majority were Tutsis.  Most tutsis were not in that 1% of the population that controlled, but when TSHTF, facts go out the window.  It became US against THEM.  This is how holocausts happen

Wyndtunnel's picture

Well spoken Trav.  Well spoken.  People can't handle the truth... We're all doomed to die alone on this shit hole we call Earth anyways...  Too bad. There really is some great scenery here. I have to admit that I do enjoy the madness... It amuses me that despite being so certain of their supremacy and the specialness of their God given mandate to rule the Earth that the vast majority of people on the planet will perish without really ever being much more conscious than a plant that follows the sun.  That's all most of us do really.. We follow the heat. We eat, we fuck, we shit. We sleep. We kill each other and we die.  Everything else is just filler.

mkkby's picture

Trav, the problem with you is you can speak intelligently about finance and science, then you turn retard and spout racism.  Yes, you are WRONG, because you are painting large, annonymous groups with a broad brush.  There are millions of jews and perhaps a handful are your elitists.  And you know it so don't even bother arguing.

trav7777's picture

Racism?  LOL.

Where?  I painted with a brush where?

Salivate some more for me, dog.  Your bell is ringing.

Andy Lewis's picture

Fuck off and die, Nazi filth.

augmister's picture

There is anti-Semitism in the world because of Jews like Kunt-sler, Bernanke, Rubin and Summers....

kiwidor's picture

There's no hatred in there at all, just observation.  Which does give weight to the assertion that you have been conditioned, MsCreant.

More disturbing is that you associate Trav's superior intelligence with some kind of convenience filter ->because he is smart, he should fall for the jew propaganda. 

While there are groups (like skinheads) who are populated by normal to below average IQ'rs, most people I know who have recognised the collective pathological behaviour of jews are in the  =>2 SD range on the general reasoning tests, and these are the folks jews love to hate. 

If you really want to get a grip on the subject, you should read Kevin MacDonald's work.  

 

BobPaulson's picture

Though I'm against his highly biased and pro-Israeli stance, I don't think your argument is assisted by anti-Jewish comments. Seriously, many of the things you say make sense but when you mix it with talk that sounds like it's from the 30's, frankly I worry. I worry that the current anti-bank sentiment could be twisted (again) into something racist and then end up not fixing the banking corruption issues.

trav7777's picture

Please do me a favor, then...point out SPECIFICALLY the anti-jewish statements I made in the above-referenced argument.

After you fail to do so, because there actually weren't any, please reflect on how your own conditioning led you to believe that I was making anti-jewish statements.

What was it, the reference to Zyklon B?  Calling him Jewms?  Or was it the use in any manner of the word "jew."  I've ofted noted that even using jew instead of "jewish" starts to provoke this kind of pavlovian response.  Sorry, but at some point you got mindfucked and have started reacting to things that actually aren't there.  It's important to be dispassionate.

BobPaulson's picture

Actually yes, calling him Jewms is the first one. The second one is your use of the term "and his cousins". If you can't see this as racist then I doubt there is much point in arguing with you.

trav7777's picture

Excellent!

I hope people like MsCreant are reading this exchange as a case in point.

You initially claimed I made "anti-jewish" statements.

Then, when asked to SPECIFICALLY point out the antijewish statements, you could not and fell back to a classic CLOTURE tactic of generic accusation of racism.

I called him "jewms" and called the banksters his "cousins."  Kunstler is a jew.  Calling him jewms was merely pointing out his ethnicity.  As a relatively small and ethnocentric group, the banksters really ARE his cousins.

NEITHER of these statements was anti-jewish.  Yet even when confronted with these PLAIN FACTS, you cannot RESIST throwing out the "well if you don't think this is racist, then I won't talk to you."

Buddy, you got mindfucked somewhere along the way and you aren't thinking straight.  You had a pavlovian reaction to my original post, responded with a conditioned response, and when I specifically asked you to review your evidence for corroboration, you encountered cognitive dissonance.  This is a sign that you are having trouble reconciling your emotions with your logic.

Alienated Serf's picture

Good point bro!  I often throw Mick and Drunk into my supervisor's name, you know, just to point out he is Irish.  No idea why he got pissed and called HR on me.

 

BobPaulson's picture

Exactly. He must be "mindfucked".

trav7777's picture

yeah...except for the fact that I didn't use a single ethnic slur or make a single derogatory reference to the jew class of persons.

Not one.

Which is why I have REPEATEDLY asked anyone who takes issue to SPECIFICALLY point out the anti-jewish statements in my post.

Normally, I would laugh out loud and tell you drooling dogs to simply STFU, but I respect MsCreant and am proving a point.

You are salivating to a fucking BELL.  The evidence is right there in front of you, EXAMINE IT.  Face the truth.

trav7777's picture

LOL.  You know one of my very good oldest friends is a Jap and we make fun of each other all the time.  I make atomic bomb jokes and he says white people are more like apes.

I think diversity is a thing that should be made fun of...class characteristics say nothing about individuals and vice versa.

What is most troubling is this indian friend of mine at work often makes off color racial statements in the elevator and people laugh.  Soon as I follow up, as a white man, you can basically FEEL the discomfort in the elevator.

I could see had I called him "Jewms Kikestler" or something that somebody might have a point, but I haven't used any ethnic slurs yet.  I only use those on good friends...like Gran Torino

Alienated Serf's picture

Slightly off color sarcasm doesn't exactly translate well in posts.  Perhaps you are not as bright as we thought if that has not occurred to you. 

Econolingus's picture

"Don't EVER confuse erudition for intelligence."

Nor racist rants with erudition...

DiverCity's picture

And because you say it's raaaaaacist, it must self-evidently be so, right?

trav7777's picture

no, racist is a word people like him use to cloture the statement of facts they wish weren't true.

The label no longer has any meaning.

DiverCity's picture

"The label no longer has any meaning."

 

Indeed.

Alienated Serf's picture

Please read up on hatred of economic elites in other parts of the world (Chinese in SE Asia, Indians in Africa etc.), they always become the scapegoat.  The Jews do not have special powers that others do not.  Unfortunately you are blinded by hate and can not think rationally on this matter; which is surprising since you generally make sense with your arguments.  You are obviosly susceptible to the divide and conquer strategy.  "Hey look, its these guys fault, look!" While you get robbed blind.

Let the guilty, regardless of ethnicity pay, if it is a lot of Jews, so be it.

Until then, you keep fightin the good fight for southern, protestant white males, who clearly are the real Chosen People.

 

 

 

 

trav7777's picture

excuse me, are you talking to me??

Because if you were then is this some kind of a joke?

The economic elites are not a scapegoat, they are to blame.

I think I have said, oh...I dunno...a THOUSAND TIMES that the guilty pay regardless of ethnicity and that is EXACTLY what Putin did.

His oligarchs were jailed or fled to Israel.  That's a fact, I mean you can put it in your pipe and smoke it.  If we get a Putin here, the same thing will occur, a lot of fleeing to Israel by former oligarchs. 

The rest of your stupid post is so shoddily worded and dissonant in its kneejerk accusations that it's not worth responding to.

Oh regional Indian's picture

Flat earth!!!!!! Hot earth! Crowded earth!

Hardly. Eh? 

Local, bricks, mortar, neighbour, community....

And micro-corporations....

ORI

http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com

NOTW777's picture

right, now this is all the fault of Christians

how much more evidence do you need that liberalism is a mental disease

NOTW777's picture

LOL look liberals flock to the junk light like bugs