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Civil And Criminal Probes Launched Against JP Morgan For Silver Market Manipulation

Tyler Durden's picture


Yes, it is really happening. After years and years and years of market manipulation, JPMorgan is about to realize there is only so far you can push your luck against the criminal envelope. In other news, when silver doubles shortly, Andrew Maguire is about to become a patron saint to generations of long-suffering gold and silver "bugs" the world throughout.

From Michael Gray of the NY Post.

Federal agents have launched parallel criminal and civil probes of JPMorgan Chase and its trading activity in the precious metals market, The Post has learned.

The probes are centering on whether or not JPMorgan, a top derivatives holder in precious metals, acted improperly to depress the price of silver, sources said.

The Commodities Futures Trade Commission is looking into civil charges, and the Department of Justice's Antitrust Division is handling the criminal probe, according to sources, who did not wish to be identified due to the sensitive nature of the information.

 The probes are far-ranging, with federal officials looking into JPMorgan's precious metals trades on the London Bullion Market Association's (LBMA) exchange, which is a physical delivery market, and the New York Mercantile Exchange (Nymex) for future paper derivative trades.

JPMorgan increased its silver derivative holdings by $6.76 billion, or about 220 million ounces, during the last three months of 2009, according to the Office of Comptroller of the Currency.

Regulators are pulling trading tickets on JPMorgan's precious metals moves on all the exchanges as part of the probe, sources tell The Post.

JPMorgan has not been charged with any wrongdoing.

The DOJ and CFTC each declined to comment, as did JPMorgan.


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Sun, 05/09/2010 - 08:32 | 338973 Quintus
Quintus's picture

Great news on the face of it, but no doubt the verdict will be along the lines of "Everything looks above board. Nothing to see here, move along now.  Sorry to have troubled you Mr. Morgan."

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 08:44 | 338988 LeBalance
LeBalance's picture

I concur.  (to wit): "After a 80 month process of grand jury, then discovery, and negotiation attempts, and then finally trial it was determined that there just wasn't enough evidence to make the case against J.P.M."

or putting it another way:

"Who owns the game?"   !!!!! /yeah they do/ !!!!!

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:34 | 339042 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

Criminal probe?

Bubba, bitches!!!!!!

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 11:01 | 339169 thesapein
thesapein's picture

Historically speaking, when credit bubbles fail, everyone blames everyone else, and things turn very ugly. Why do you think this is happening now? As things gets worse, going after "those responsible" will become a witch hunt, just like always.*

*referring to centuries of European history

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 11:21 | 339180 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

honor amongst thieves, but jesus, you're so right

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 11:23 | 339191 thesapein
thesapein's picture

We're talking about the kind of people that will stab in each other in the back to rob them during the best of times. What do you think they'll do to each other during bad times.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 12:26 | 339310 Sam Clemons
Sam Clemons's picture

You're right.  It seems that most of the ruling elite has no respect for humanity.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 12:52 | 339366 Problem Is
Problem Is's picture

"Why do you think this is happening now? As things gets worse, going after "those responsible" will become a witch hunt, just like always.*"

"What do you think they'll do to each other during bad times."

Righteous gospel, thesapein....

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 11:36 | 339210 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

The Reagan empire is crumbling, that's why. Those people involved, their ties and allegiances, their rules and customs are fraying so it's time to head for the hills. 

One glaring reason I say this: The silver market was cornered during it's last mega run up (aka bubble) in 1979-80 by Nelson and Bunker Hunt. They made a fortune before the government busted up their corner. The Reagan Administration was a time of bold, grand scale financial market interventions by government fiat: Plaza Accords in the currency market, Fed intervention in the credit markets, plunge control team and other interventions in the equities market. A final piece of the puzzle was commodities. The combine that routinely cooled the gold and silver markets (maybe the oil market too in the early-mid 80s) is now being exposed and is falling apart. Whistle blowers, declassified documents are surfacing all over. Watch for more people turning evidence in to save themselves. 

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 14:16 | 339523 sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture

How I wish it were true, but please remember that Jamie Dimon dined with Prez Obama in the White House this past Monday, prior to Kaufman-Brown amendment going down to defeat by the Bankster Party.

Nope, the bankster/oil cartel owns the US govt, and that's all she wrote.....

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:14 | 339103 Popo
Popo's picture

This is a dog and pony show. Nothing more. A 'real' take-down of JPM's criminal operations, and the resulting spike in silver prices, would take down JPM completely -- as well as Barclay's and other major bullion banks. These guys are too big to fail, and therefore too big to bring to justice. This is a nothingburger.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 11:34 | 339206 thesapein
thesapein's picture

I think it's just the beginning of the tribunals to come. 

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 12:19 | 339285 obewon
obewon's picture

@ Popo:

Yeah, it's a dog and pony show . . . but

What's really behind all this is the fact that Obama ain't doing well in the polls and his party is in deep kim-shee as we approach the mid-term elections in November.

So what better way to improve is standing among an public (irate over Wall St. fraud & corruption) than to:

a. Sue the most hated of the bunch (GS)

b. Launch civil and criminal probes against the second most hated (JPM)

Likely Net Result:

a. GS is fined $500 million (they make that amount in profit over a week's worth of fraudulent activity); they pay it, and the public feels better. Meanwhile GS continues with their fraudulent schemes

b. JPM gets its hand slapped, is fined $100 million; they pay it, and the public feels better. Meanwhile, silver soars 50% between now and November, and JPM continues with its dirty tricks, in collusion with HSBC.

... oh, and Obama's ratings in the polls surges, thereby mitigating the extensive political damage he would have had to endure, if his party lost the Congress.


Case closed.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 12:54 | 339370 jkruffin
jkruffin's picture

Obama's rating will crumble further if all they do is get fined those chump fines after they have stolen hundreds of billions over the years.  Small petty fines and slaps on the wrist are not going to cut it for GS or JPM anymore.   Geithner and Bernanke are neck deep in this mess with them too.  They need to be next.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 19:35 | 340145 DosZap
DosZap's picture


WHAT RATINGS?..................before Nov,0 from 0 =ZERO.((;*

He's going down faster than the Titanic.

We could have trials for the next 50yrs, and never get it /them all.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 12:56 | 339371 Problem Is
Problem Is's picture

"What's really behind all this is the fact that Obama ain't doing well in the polls and his party is in deep kim-shee as we approach the mid-term elections in November."

Best analysis of the week, month, year.

Obewon gives us an elegant yet powerful theorem that is so overwhelmingly fact based... it can be elevated to an absolute law of nature...

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 13:50 | 339478 silvertrain
silvertrain's picture

 And this is the same man they may be forced with a delema to veto an audit the fed bill? The white house cam out on thursday and opposed the audit the fed..I wonder why that isnt bigger news than it is..

  If BO wants to get his numbers up he is either going to audit the fed or take down COMPLETELY one of these tbtf Banks....

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 16:58 | 339751 Calculated_Risk
Calculated_Risk's picture

"  If BO wants to get his numbers up he is either going to audit the fed or take down COMPLETELY one of these tbtf Banks...."


Or abolish income taxes..

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 19:40 | 340154 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Or abolish income taxes..


That's more like it, but the VAT will more than make up for it......LOL

Wait till Americans find out their going to get taxed for having a Checking Acct..........and ALL( ALL) financial transactions will be data based.

All jokes aside, there is nothing he can do, to get his ratings up...........and, HE doesn't care, he's almost accomplished his agenda.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 13:24 | 339421 Howard_Beale
Howard_Beale's picture

Well if it's a dog and pony show, why not dress your pup in one of these great shirts! I know--I've gone mad.  GOLD BITCHES with 3 American Eagles in dog apparel at the ZH fundraiser store at Zazzle:

YES there is a typo in the link but not on the shirt!

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 17:00 | 339756 Rick64
Rick64's picture

Why don't you put an ad on ZH? Also how about selling the ZH t-shirts on zazzle.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 17:13 | 339793 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Call up the GOOG squad and tell 'em. Tell 'em how it is:

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 17:51 | 339888 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

That's a funny one. You're a crazy person. :-)

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 21:44 | 340381 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Words cannot describe...LOL.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 14:17 | 339527 sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture

Exactly! Too big to jail, with a future Goldman Sachs partnership awaiting President Obama, while Hillary and Tiny Timmy count their future fortunes.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 19:42 | 340161 DosZap
DosZap's picture

If it pans out right, from behind bars.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 14:59 | 339582 dumpster
dumpster's picture

Now that the damage has been done and the economy is already ruined, but just in time for the elections, now the regulators put down their porn and start to look like they are trying to do something.  what really happened

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 13:15 | 339417 Gold...Bitches
Gold...Bitches's picture

Gray posted the info that this story would be running today on his blog last night.  However, the story is slowly working its way into the mainstream press.  At the end of the day, once enough people know whats occurring they will want to get some PM's and that will crush the paper games on the CriMEX.  It will happen, have patience and ignore the interim gyrations.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 13:38 | 339458 watchingdogma
watchingdogma's picture

It hasn't started yet - I was able to get a tube of AG Eagles on Apmex just now - looked at a couple of other sites - looks like 90% junk is getting scarce - but there's still AG available in several forms from several places.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 13:28 | 339441 the.spear
the.spear's picture

All of this is only because everything is about to collapse. People are going to want someone to lynch. The fun has been had by Mr. Buffet, JPMC etc. & it is too little too late. In fact this is very much a token gesture.


Sun, 05/09/2010 - 14:19 | 339532 sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture

There are now secure, well-patrolled luxury compounds around the nation (e.g., in Nevada above Lake Tahoe, on a mountain top in Wyoming, etc.) and those are private mililtary companies (PMCs) doing the patrolling.

They believe they will get away with everything.....

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 16:47 | 339727 SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

First, a big thank you to Jason Hommel.  Let's not forget this:

Now, as far as any DOJ investigation, I'm not as skeptical as to the validity of this and the Goldman activity although I am open to the possibility that it's all for show.  My gut tells me that the Obama administration knows we are at the end of the line and they need to expose all of the misdeeds of the banksters so they can blame them when the SHTF.

Also, the fact that the banksters are pulling in millions cannot sit well with him given his background and propensity to spread the wealth.

The million or so dollars he received from Goldman is insignificant so anyone who thinks that's going to dissuade him from moving on them or JPM should think again.

Too many things that many of us were aware of or suspected are now being exposed in full public view.  If he were in cahoots with JPM and GS, all of this would remain secret and there'd be no reason for the silver market manipulation to be exposed.

This all could very well be for real.


Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:00 | 339006 mogul rider
mogul rider's picture

gold and silver bitches unite we are strong!!!

At last until Obama hunts us down like traitors and JPM walks.



Sun, 05/09/2010 - 11:59 | 339245 Cheeky Bastard
Cheeky Bastard's picture

OT but the airports in Stuttgart and Munich are closed due to the ash from Eyjafjallajökull link and the situation above France does not yet recuire closing of airports but there are some disturbances Le Monde link. It seems as if the volcano is Lindsey Lohan drunk and is about to vomit on European sky once again.

And FUCK YES; bring the behemoth down. FUCK YOU JPM.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 12:37 | 339336 Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

+100 (for the Lindsay Lohan bit).  And I concur completely about JPM.  About time, even if nothing comes of it.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 13:16 | 339418 Hansel
Sun, 05/09/2010 - 15:36 | 339620 Screwball
Screwball's picture

Thanks for that - always wondered how they said that - now that I know, I still can't say it. :-(

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 16:04 | 339651 old_turk
old_turk's picture

I just tried it.


Chipped a tooth and hawked a lougie at the cat ... the cat is not impressed.


But thanks for the link.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 16:05 | 339654 old_turk
old_turk's picture

I just tried it.


Chipped a tooth and hawked a lougie at the cat ... the cat is not impressed.


But thanks for the link.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 16:31 | 339697 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

I have two feeds up, but I have no idea what I am looking at.  It appears there is some action.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:03 | 339012 ReallySparky
ReallySparky's picture

Awe my friends, the PTB need some scape goats because they know this is all going to come crashing down.  Have faith, they will nail them.  But it still will not affect the price of silver in the long run.  I bet Ol Warren Buffet, and crew is feeling pretty betrayed about right now.  Invited to Chicago post election for a round table and then abrubtly turned on and thrown under the bus. 

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:07 | 339017 Janice
Janice's picture

Why is this news now?  I knew about this on Wednesday...which is why JP Morgan took out the market on Thursday.  Crap, the only reason that this is being investigated is because the abuse became so large that average people on the street knew about it. 

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 11:54 | 339239 Missing_Link
Missing_Link's picture

You're suggesting that the Thursday take-down was a scare tactic designed to convince the DoJ to drop its case?

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 12:45 | 339255 Janice
Janice's picture

All I am saying is that I knew about this on Wednesday.  If forced, I will look for the article.  Then, according to Zero Hedge, JPM was the heaviest trader on "Down your Throat" Thursday.  Coincidence?  I do not know, but I have seen conspiracy theories with worst plots.  Also, JPM has to do something overt so that the dumb politicians get the picture and comply with the will of the banksters.  Just sayin.


Okay, here's the link

Jim Rickards talked about it on Wednesday on Squawk Box in the last 2 minutes of the video.

Link to JP Morgan trying to dump 24 million plus shares

I figure the other banks (machines) got spooked just jumped in for the ride.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:16 | 339030 doublethink
doublethink's picture


Well, I've got to run to keep from hidin',
And I'm bound to keep on ridin'.
And I've got one more silver dollar,
But I'm not gonna let 'em catch me, no,
Not gonna let 'em catch the Midnight Rider.


Greg Allman

Midnight Rider

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:17 | 339031 JJ McApe
JJ McApe's picture


Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:22 | 339036 MiningJunkie
MiningJunkie's picture

Markopolis' book "No One Would Listen" will put a resolute end to the whitewash effect. JPM is going to get fucked bigtime (finally).

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:27 | 339037 lalit
lalit's picture

Would the investigation effect their current shorts in the market? I don't think so.Never the less it has symbolic value. There is going to be a reversal of the price discovery process in the near future where the price will be dictated by the physical market rather than vice versa.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:30 | 339041 cbaba
cbaba's picture

This time is different, They have a whistleblower, Andrew Maguire.

We will see what happens.


Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:42 | 339053 aurum
aurum's picture

i think this time is slightly different as well..the whipsaw in prices from wed thru fri of last week looks interesting...especially friday with the huge increase even with market down...typically silver moves (or should i say JPM moves silver) parallel to the market...decoupling perhaps? was JPM pulling the rug of last week for the final time before silver blasts through $20/oz?

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:08 | 339095 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Only because they didn't turn him into a stain on the roadway the first time.

They'll be back.

I am Chumbawamba.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 14:01 | 339497 tmosley
tmosley's picture

The horse is already out of the barn, and galloping down the highway at 90 miles per hour.  Killing the whistleblower at this point would be an empty gesture and only likely to make things worse for them.

It's the next whistleblower that you have to look out for.  Next time it won't be a simplistic attack by a hit and run driver, but a swift knifing in the street, or a nice bit of polonium in his cheerios.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:34 | 339046 living on the edge
living on the edge's picture

Precious metals are getting away from them anyways. The take downs less effective. Hold on to your hats.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:39 | 339049 assumptionblindness
assumptionblindness's picture

The only 'probe' that matters is the one that Jamie Dimon will be getting if he ever goes to prison.  I'm not going to hold my breath...we all know that a presidential pardon from Obama is all but guaranteed.  Market manipulation is a matter of 'national security' don't ya' know.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:25 | 339116 Attila
Attila's picture

If M. Dimon is headed for prison; they will have to nail him before we do. We feel he would enjoy more visiting our "Kamps-in-zee-East"

Super Glue. Would glue! Dimon Glue?

Winters in Siberia will do wonders for his outlook on manipulation...

Cold comfort for little jamie...



Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:41 | 339050 Janice
Janice's picture

I've been waiting.  Per my reading, did you know that the price ratio of silver to gold has historically been 16 to 1 (before all this fiat money manipulation), sixteen oz of silver is equal to 1 oz of gold.  At a gold price of $1,200, that should put silver at $75 per oz.  Ride the wave!

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:47 | 339061 living on the edge
living on the edge's picture

The 16 to 1 ratio you point out is about the same ratio of gold/silver in the ground. But above ground supplies are another matter. This is where silver outshines gold. Heavy industrial use for silver continues to deplete inventories.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:58 | 339067 Janice
Janice's picture

I was not aware of how the ratio was determined.  Thanks.  But isn't it interesting that my ancestors probably knew this information as common knowledge, but I had to search & search for it.


You know I even read, that because silver was so cheap, when it was use to make products, like camera film, that the film was discarded without salvaging the now, the land fills are littered with silver, but because it is so scattered it makes retrieval cost prohibitive.  Unfortunately, it seems that the above ground supply was literally throw away.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:17 | 339107 Hulk
Hulk's picture

Our ancestors knew a lot of basic, very important information that we have forgotten. What we should be eating and how it should be raised is an example.

Not building up a megaton of debt is yet another..

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 11:24 | 339192 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

and punishing bad people...

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 12:45 | 339276 Hulk
Hulk's picture

Getting time to bring back the guillotine.But ropes a lot cheaper and trees are everywhere. If/when this thing finally breaks, it will be interesting to know the final stretched neck count. Folks are going to be out for blood when they finally realize how bad they have been raped..

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 15:22 | 339600 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Even the trees are with us on this one!

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 15:29 | 339610 Hulk
Hulk's picture

LOL. Lots of white oak where I am from. 3 inch branch can easily hold a 200 lb man. Fortunately, lots of 6 to 10 inch branches to hold those big fellers...

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 12:33 | 339329 Sam Clemons
Sam Clemons's picture

Another use?:

Is Killer Mold the Next Big Thing? The next pandemic panic? And is Nano Silver the Antidote? We are keeping a close eye on the potential for a pandemic mold, cryptococcus gattii, possibly spotted in the north west. Some researchers are concerned that this infectious mold, with a fifty percent fatality rate, is another example of a weaponized pathogen that has been released, intentionally or not, into the public. If this mold responds to biological terain including nano silver, silver may be a very useful nutrient to have on hand!

"...potentially lethal fungus may spread..." - Health Care Industry Today, May 5, 2010

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 12:46 | 339359 Hulk
Hulk's picture

Mold will have to wait. I am still waiting for H1N1..

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 15:24 | 339604 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Last year the infrastructure wasn't there for a mass poisoning - er, vaccination - campaign. Now we have millions of doses waiting in the wings - paid for by the US taxpayer (well, you know what I mean).

All we need is a flareup...

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 16:54 | 339739 Bolweevil
Bolweevil's picture


Sun, 05/09/2010 - 16:10 | 339663 merehuman
merehuman's picture

it only kills 25% and silver is not a nutrient tho some drink its juices , some turn blue from it.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:47 | 339150 kurt_cagle
kurt_cagle's picture

16 to 1 was the rallying cry of William Jennings Bryan in his presidential campaigns (, expounding the belief that silver prices should be set to a fixed ratio compared to gold prices during the 1880s through about 1910, with the perennial candidate arguing that the USD should be backed by silver rather than the gold that McKinley wanted. Bryan was pre-Mises, but would have fit well in that camp.


Sun, 05/09/2010 - 11:32 | 339200 Orly
Orly's picture

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 13:05 | 339400 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Except that Mises camp would want the ratio to float according to market price signals. The hard peg of bimetallism was inherently flawed, and doomed to failure.


Sun, 05/09/2010 - 16:28 | 339690 dumpster
dumpster's picture

The hard peg of bimetallism was inherently flawed, and doomed to failure.  nanny moose


and pray tell where you come up with that clap trap .

how was it flawed ,,why doomed for failure .

do you understand how the basis of bimetallism was set up. .

it was doomed from the start because it did not allow  the politicians and speculators to gain unearned wealth at the expense of the printing press ,  other than that you are whistling in the wind..

and your age .. and do you know one whit about the Austrian economics , or just the Keynesian B.S. that was goo-ed over the heads of the new generation.


Sun, 05/09/2010 - 20:16 | 340231 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Just for you Buffs.................

Following the letter of the law, the dollar struck by the United States was supposed to be of 371.25 grains of silver rather than 374.4 grains to which it had been struck in 1794 and early 1795. If the law was followed properly, this conformed to a ratio of 15 to 1 for silver to gold. In fact the ratio was 15.13 to 1. It appears Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson, who was in charge of the Mint, and President George Washington both learned of this impropriety in the fall of 1795, perhaps about the time the Flowing Hair silver dollar production stopped.  David Rittenhouse, the initial director of the Mint, left his post June 30, 1795 due to ill health. A Washington colleague, Henry William DeSaussure, replaced him in July.  DeSaussure was informed of the problem with the weight of the silver dollar and all other silver coins in regard to what was stipulated in the law.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:25 | 339115 silvertrain
silvertrain's picture

 A Rodium type Moment?

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:55 | 339074 Implicit simplicit
Implicit simplicit's picture

Hey Janice, I know you probably have physical silver, but what do you think of a silver ETF, or some other stock venue. Any suggestions?

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:16 | 339079 Janice
Janice's picture

Let's get physical!  If you can't hold it, you don't own it!

I say that, but I do own silver mining stock, but no ETFs.  I hate giving investment advice, because unlike Wall Street, I feel bad when people lose their hard earned money based on something I've said.  All I know is if I own physical silver, it is a capital asset and is taxed when sold.  If I own stock, it is taxed at sale, dividends and annual increase in value.  I believe that the stock market is a rich man's game, a politician's funding source and criminal breeding ground...IMHO...I am just a lowly roach looking for crumbs.  

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:35 | 339136 Implicit simplicit
Implicit simplicit's picture

No question about stocks being a rigged game. I only believe in mental stops especially since I am as convicted as I am about this downturn. Been all in short since early March (small portfolio). Covered ANF and sold VXX this week, still got TZA, SDS, FAZ , without stops; market makers love stops, there is not one they will not reach up or down to grab for themselves. Its rigged. I am not near rich in monetary worth.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 11:21 | 339188 excellent
excellent's picture

Yes, stops regularly are hit by things so ridiculous it's hard to imagine.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 13:10 | 339410 Sam Clemons
Sam Clemons's picture

Hah.  Exact same reason I don't use them.  I've had them hit as the low or high point of the day many times.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 13:05 | 339398 Gold...Bitches
Gold...Bitches's picture

All I know is if I own physical silver, it is a capital asset and is taxed when sold.

Dont sell it - spend it as money.  You may be surprised how many owner operated store/services are willing to take PM's for their services through barter.  Got too much PM's?  Talk to someone doing a FSBO home, etc...

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 13:08 | 339405 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Bingo. I would gladly work for a couple of Morgans/Hr.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 14:22 | 339534 sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture

Be advised, the DTCC does not agree with your commentary....

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:09 | 339096 living on the edge
living on the edge's picture

No ETF's. Physical position is best and if you have large quantities to buy/store go with James Turk's GoldMoney. They have no counter party risk and independent audits of the physical. Just my 2-cents worth.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:12 | 339100 Carl Marks
Carl Marks's picture

Check out CEF.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:26 | 339117 Implicit simplicit
Implicit simplicit's picture

Thanks CM and LOE for the advice. I am looking for a trade in addition to holding physical. CEF looks good, and I was just checking out SIVR and PHYS for gold. Also AGQ-2x etf for a bet.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:32 | 339127 living on the edge
living on the edge's picture

If you are looking for a very short term trade then ETF's are fine. History will judge ETF's as a failure regarding asset protection.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:35 | 339133 Janice
Janice's picture

I went straight to the miners...per my understanding, ETFs "have to purchase" metals...IF they actually purchase metals, no SEC annual audits required.  Also, I believe that ETF can lease metals to other entities, thus IMHO, distorting ownership of said metals.  How do I know that they are not just leasing the metal that they say they own?  Just too much room for games.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 11:51 | 339231 Amish Hacker
Amish Hacker's picture

IMO, the silver and gold ETFs were created to divert demand for physical metals into paper products, not to make it more convenient for the average investor to own precious metals. Note that the ETFs are managed by the very banks that are massively short the commodity. When Joe Sixpack buys GLD or SLV, he thinks he has found a great way to "own the metal" without having to pay dealer premiums, insurance, shipping, etc. In reality, his demand for metal, which would create real upward price pressure if the game were fair, has been nullified by a paper promise that lets the shorts off the hook.


Sun, 05/09/2010 - 13:09 | 339407 Janice
Janice's picture

+1 And the criminal activity was government audits necessary.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 14:24 | 339536 sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture

+100, correct, more shadow financial vehicles for ultra-leveraged speculation (and let us not forget about all those ETNs out there...).

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:29 | 339124 silvertrain
silvertrain's picture

Ill 2nd cef..Thats one that has the goods also..Along with   PHYS  its not to late to get into Eric sprotts, he puts the serial numbers of the stuff you own up on the website and when all the other eft's went down last week , his was going up..

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 12:01 | 339247 The Deacon
The Deacon's picture

SBT.UN or SBT.U on the TSX is THE silver vehicle to own.  It is run by the same people who run CEF.  Not sure if its available in the US, but you can see it also trades in USD.


THe volume is low, but so is the preemium.  FWIW, other 'bugs' have confirmed this is one of the best 'paper' silver investments going.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 12:21 | 339296 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

Last time I checked it was not accessible from the US.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 12:18 | 339288 Barmaher
Barmaher's picture

Why pay higher commissions, spreads, and storage fees with Goldmoney when Bullionvault offers a more transparent service at lower cost?  They also provide independent 3rd party audits every business day rather than once per quarter.      I hold 10 x (by weight) silver versus gold and there's always a place for Andrew McGuire at  our dinner table.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 16:54 | 339744 Bow Tie
Bow Tie's picture

yup, if you have a large position and want to keep a % of it much more liquid, good idea. might i mention bullionvault too, am using it for silver myself. as far as i know, goldmoney and bullionvault both very good services.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 20:29 | 340248 DosZap
DosZap's picture

+10, plus it's held in either Zurich(my choice if doing so), or London........I would take Zurich.

CEF, is Canada, and we're too buddy,buddy if you get my drift.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 12:17 | 339282 Cheeky Bastard
Cheeky Bastard's picture

read this and gain insight into what kind of a scam silver ETF is. Curtesy of Project Mayhem who is sadly missed.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 13:10 | 339409 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

What happened to PM? What did I miss? Always enjoyed his posts.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 13:59 | 339492 Cheeky Bastard
Cheeky Bastard's picture

I dont know man, im seriously worried. He even abandoned his web page I think he might have succumbed to all the idiots who were attacking him and his posts here on ZH. I know how he feels, given that the same idiots managed to drive me away [almost]. I hope he gets back to us but im not sure we will see him ever again. He had some serious inside knowledge, especially concerning Baxter and iShares Silver ETF and SLV and silver in general. Too bad he just evaporated from the face of the Internet.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 14:09 | 339507 perchprism
perchprism's picture


He's tending his potato patch in Galt's Gulch.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 15:27 | 339607 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

That's my hope. Maybe merehuman got a visit and is joining him. I know you hate Rand, cheeky, but don't you wish some hot blond dude would come visit you and convince you to drop everything for life in a valley in CO?

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 16:31 | 339699 merehuman
merehuman's picture

after much gnashing of teeth i decided that i am as good as anyone else. I presented my view and was attacked for it.  I dont claim to know all, in fact i often refer to myself as a dumshit. It got on my nerves one day how a particular word would send folks in a tizzy to junk. My points and questions were honestly made and in goodwill and i live close to my heart. I agree i did invite folks to junk me by my very words spoken in angry retort to the often faceless junkers.  Later in a following post i was verbally denigrated and made to appear as if i was a >>> hater, which i am certainly not.  I am also aware the WH has eyes on these posts. Some things i have said could conceivably be used against me tho i have done no wrong. My german background reminds me of the possible late nite knocks on the door. No , i would not be surprised and as i am a resident alien (legally here) even tho i served in the us army i can still be deported. So i risk as much as any of you in my quest for whats real and true.

So despite fearful reservations i will keep on speaking my mind. Otherwise i might as well be dead now instead of later.

Village Idiot , thank you for the hump i tripped over.                                                                                                 


Sun, 05/09/2010 - 17:19 | 339803 Rick64
Rick64's picture

Your points were and are valid. Facts back them up.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 17:20 | 339806 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Justly, Everyone Works

Good sir,

I had pondered that number of junks, and came to the realization that they were validating you. There are occasions when the ZH community has junked out of respect, as opposed to scorn.

Village Idiot is not a regular voice. A passerby.

Live long, and prosper.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 21:34 | 340366 i.knoknot
i.knoknot's picture

excellent choice sir.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 14:27 | 339544 desgust
desgust's picture

Sad. He was my first news intake on Monday.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:42 | 339052 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

House panel will investigate, new laws (bill to be written by JPM lawyers) to protect JPM's actions will be enacted and grandfathered, larger campaign contributions to follow.....

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:44 | 339055 moneymutt
moneymutt's picture

silver is an industrial metal also, if deflation takes out that portion of demand...

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:53 | 339069 DavosSherman
DavosSherman's picture

True, 60% goes to industry. But solar, barring some better technology uses a lot of it. Also once in industry best luck getting it out.


I think the important thing to remember here is that 70% of silver comes from mining OTHER metals!

Also, there are only 1-5 billion ounces above ground, gold there is 5 billion. 


IMO Dines is right, this metal will be 50-200x higher.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:54 | 339159 assumptionblindness
assumptionblindness's picture

The physical silver that is ending up in private hands is growing every month.  I know a lot of people (myself included) who have been buying physical silver.  Like gold, silver is a precious metal that will be hoarded.  The industrial supply has got to be getting squeezed much more than the market price would suggest.  IMO $75 is a very realistic near-term target.  In a world of exploding sovereign debts the upside potential is significant while the downside risks are minimal.  Silver, Bitches!

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 16:32 | 339701 dumpster
dumpster's picture

IMO Dines is right, this metal will be 50-200x higher.

davos sherman

clarify .... dines has stated tha siver will sell from 500 to 3000 an oz, ????

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:44 | 339057 realitybiter
realitybiter's picture

At some point, the game becomes too painful for them.  That point is near.  "Screw it, you can have your stupid silver market.  Besides, the future is carbon, or Sovereign debt CDS, or whatever," will be their resignation....

Having been banksta tape raped multiple times over the last 7 years, I'd like to see them go.  Hell, who can explain Friday's Silver action?  It was the anti-tape-rape.  I was long, but no where near as long as I would have liked, anticipating getting pulled into the woods and beaten at any moment.....

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:46 | 339059 Carl Marks
Carl Marks's picture

The real menace of our Republic is the invisible government which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy legs over our cities states and nation. At the head is a small group of banking houses generally referred to as 'international bankers.' This little coterie... run our government for their own selfish ends. It operates under cover of a self-created screen...[and] seizes...our executive officers... legislative bodies... schools... courts... newspapers and every agency created for the public protection.

-John F. Hylan

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 12:12 | 339271 The Deacon
The Deacon's picture

Was MR. Hylan Andrew JAckson's campaign manager?


Sounds about right.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 12:59 | 339384 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

You forgot to mention the exemption for a certain religious minority that exploits that invisible octopus and holds the host hostage while trying to maintain a grip on stolen land.


I am Chumbawamba.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:46 | 339060 crisafut01
crisafut01's picture

This is all kabuki theatre.  Don't get too excited. 

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:50 | 339153 Implicit simplicit
Implicit simplicit's picture

Don't buy the 1st move.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:50 | 339064 DavosSherman
DavosSherman's picture


Got silver? Ka-Ching!



Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:50 | 339065 Matto
Matto's picture

What was the name of that gold fund set up by that Canuck posted on here several weeks back (fully audited and deliverable bars upon request)?

Any similar silver trade situations? Physical not possible in current situation.


Sun, 05/09/2010 - 20:41 | 340276 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Davos, wasn't aware they did Slvr?.

Delivery only in 400oz, Gld..........

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:00 | 339080 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Physical not possible in current situation.

That depends upon how much you want and how fast you want it.  For the average person (I DO mean average) who wants under 100 ounces in 7 days or sooner there are plenty of outlets available.  If you want a couple thou -- who knows.   Your statement has to be framed for a proper answer.  I buy a few (10 to 20) American Silver Eagles, mixed dates, every week and they show up in my P O Box in 4 or 5 days.  Doesn't sound like much, but averaged out over several years and you have a pretty sizable pile.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:24 | 339113 Hulk
Hulk's picture

Doesn't sound like much, but averaged out over several years and you have a pretty sizable pile.

This is also the same principle whereby garages fill up with worthless junk, whilst expensive cars sit outside, exposed to the elements. Thats a QED on your theory

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 13:19 | 339426 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Got it. Buy PM's rather than the worthless chinese crap to be stored in said garage. PM's would take up less space, and you could keep the worthless car in the garage instead, making it less worthless, due to depreciation caused by exposure to the elements.

Win-Win in my book

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 15:34 | 339616 Hulk
Hulk's picture


It has always amazes me to see brand new $40k cars wasting away in the elements while useless crap is piled to the ceiling in the garage. I have a ten year old car that looks brand new because its always in the garage when not in use..I expect I can easily et another 5 years out of that car too...

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:21 | 339111 realitybiter
realitybiter's picture

PHYS is what I believe you are referring to.  Lets get PHYSical.  The rest pay with despair.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:50 | 339154 justbuygold
justbuygold's picture

Its called Silver Bullion Trust ( 100 % silver)  and is part of the Central Group .  Central Group funds also include Central Fund of Canada ( 60% gold, 40% silver) and Central Gold Trust ( 100% gold).  The "Canuck "  that runs it  is Stefan Spicer .  Central Fund has been around for over 40 years.

Silver Bullion Trust owns 3.2 MM ounces of Silver which is all stored in Level 10 security Vaults in Canada in segregated cages and audited regularly. They publish bar lists with all the serial numbers. They also have the lowest admin/mgmt fees in the world at under .005 ( under 1/2 of 1 %) . Symbol is SBT.un on TSX in $CDN ( great way to also hold $CDN) . Also trades in $US on TSX.

There are very few other pure silver vehicles out there that are not a potential scam that SLV likely is (IMHO  most or all of their silver is leased out several times over).    There is Claymore Silver but they have issues which has deterred investors which include higher administration and mgmt fees ( 60 basis point +++) , questionable bar lists ( many bars isted as UNKOWN origin) , and lack of a proven track record ( less than 1 yr). They also hold a good portion of the silver in London and NY vaults.

PHYS is mostly gold !

Full disclosure.  I own a lot of Silver Bullion Trust . It is my preferred choice ,after heavy due dilligence, in a hunt for the best pure silver investment other than pure physical.




Sun, 05/09/2010 - 19:15 | 340098 Matto
Matto's picture

Thanks everyone.


JBG, that's the info i was after, cheers!!

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 14:57 | 339577 dleddy14
dleddy14's picture

bullionvault does silver now.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 09:57 | 339076 mogul rider
mogul rider's picture

Seriously though, my family has invested in gold for 4 generations now and this is the first time we can recall that a bank has been explosed. Iasked my grandfather and he was arounf when they confiscated it and the banks made a fuckin killling as did the government. They didnt; get ours apparently, gramps hid his inteh woods, but the army did come to his door apparently because the shop keeper he bought the eagles from ratted him out.


So the lesson here is, if you bought this stuff on public record - it is in the public record.Gramps says it feels escatly like before the last confiscation. Gold was rising in black market value. You couldn't get any. 


Anyway, food for thought. I was think of molding mine into a busque of Bush. For sure they'd never look there. They'd know it was hollow though.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 14:06 | 339500 perchprism
perchprism's picture


It makes sense that this would be a prelude into some sort of government activity in regard to precious metals.  First things first, they rout out the manipulators, then they come up with some sort of international SDR that is backed, at least partly, in gold and silver.

I can see them debating it in a smoke-filled room, around a huge oak conference table.  "Well, first of all, we'd have to get the manipulators out of the game, if this is going to fly..."  Ergo, JPMorgan gets hit as a lesson to the rest of them.  I think gold and silver are both going to skyrocket.  They'll never get mine.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:02 | 339081 Cursive
Cursive's picture

OK, so when do the SEC and DOJ launch an investigation into JPM, GS et al for equity manipulation?

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:11 | 339098 living on the edge
living on the edge's picture

Great question and the reason I sold all mining stocks.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 11:21 | 339187 John McCloy
John McCloy's picture

Yeah I am thinking their May 6th domestic terror attack on the markets will in retrospect become one of the most foolish things they ever attempted. And these men are the financial "brains"?

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 12:21 | 339295 The Deacon
The Deacon's picture

If history don't repeat, it rhymes.

Nelson Biddle the head of the then FED told Andrew Jackson that if he didn't renew the banks charter, he would kill the economy. AJ didn't, the bank called in all their loans, and the economy tanked.

AJ told the people, I told you the bankers had too much power.  He was re-elected.


Bankers holding a gun to our collective heads....sound familiar?

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:03 | 339084 silvertrain
silvertrain's picture

Does this mean buy long Whites Metal Detectors?

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 14:15 | 339520 perchprism
perchprism's picture


I own a White's and a Garrett.  Sold my Gold Bug---too many hot rocks in my neighborhood.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 14:24 | 339538 silvertrain
silvertrain's picture

 I acually traded my whites for a Tesoro Vaquero..I love it!!!!!!!!!

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 16:43 | 339720 merehuman
merehuman's picture

 the garret 150 i have doesnt go past a few inches. Something could be there you would not know. How to increase the depth is what i am looking for now. But panning has sure been fun. Am trying to pin down past magma flows in my area. Magma heat transfer to water in ground boils water helping the molten gold molecules to move with gravity . Theres a site explaining this. Been too long to recall its name

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:03 | 339085 THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture


I was hoping for one more silver purchase - guess it is too late now.



Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:17 | 339106 Implicit simplicit
Implicit simplicit's picture

If this story isn't juice for further upside, I don't know what is.

 According to blogs below, the average gold/silver ratio of 16:1 allows for substantial upside.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 12:08 | 339262 dumpster
dumpster's picture

one more silver purchase lol

silver going to 50 and higher .. and you think to late ,


Sun, 05/09/2010 - 13:20 | 339429 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

never too late in the global fiat race to the bottom.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 15:36 | 339621 Hulk
Hulk's picture

No way DOC...

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 16:16 | 339673 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

At what price?  Or more importantly, at what discount?  I do not think it will be marked up to $1,200 an OZ all at once.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:08 | 339094 Mongo
Mongo's picture



Not that this leads to anything but at least something is happening!

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:10 | 339097 tmosley
tmosley's picture

For you naysayers, I would suggest a reading of Atlas Shrugged.  We are at the point where the cooperative industry boys are being betrayed.  They'll go one by one until there is no-one left but the Supreme Dictator and who-ever he happens to favor that week.

This system is about to lose the kindness it has shown to the oligarchy and show its nasty side to all involved.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:59 | 339166 Jim B
Jim B's picture

Ordered from Amazon last week, hope to read next week.  I understand it is pretty good!  I am reading Peter Schiff's How an Economy Grows and Why It Crashes at the moment.....

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 11:06 | 339176 tmosley
tmosley's picture

I've got that on order as well.  I read his father's version, and it really opened my eyes.  It makes it so that anyone can understand economics.

Mon, 05/10/2010 - 00:23 | 339759 nuinut
nuinut's picture

LOL. Unless you got absolutely nothing else on, it will take more than a week.

Great book, could have used some serious editing though, IMO.

Completely fails to account for any sort of spiritual aspect of humanity too, so only dealing with logic. Our perception of being separate from one another and indeed all of creation is the underlying cause of pretty much all our ridiculous behavior.

Until we change that, we can expect our current predicament to repeat itself endlessly in the future.

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