You're now on the archive server. Commenting has been disabled.
Cliff Asness Takes On flag@whitehouse.com And The Orwellian Totallitarian Watch-List
From: StumblingOnTruth Comments
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 11:54 AM
To: 'flag@whitehouse.gov'
Cc: 'flagmeobama@gmail.com'
Subject: Flag me! I.e., please put me on your Orwellian totalitarian watch-list as one vigorously opposed to your socialist takeover of health care (as one example of many). Others interested in sending similar emails please see http://flagmeobama.com/
Importance: High
Dear Leader and Minions,
The only thing more un-American, anti-freedom, and hypocritical from this administration, that dared to campaign on the prior administration's respect of the constitution, than your attempt to socialize vast swaths of the American economy, is your new attempt to silence your legitimate critics. You have (collectively with your party) called them Nazis, you have lied about their generally peaceful demonstrations while ignoring the incredible hypocrisy of your own brown-shirt like efforts (New Black panther thugs let off the hook by Holder, Code Pink, SEIU and ACORN vigorously disrupting free speech; and just try to give a speech offending the Left on our academically "free" campuses?). Now this explicit effort to have Americans, who happen to disagree with the current people in charge, inform on other Americans to this email address. You all have no shame.
Is anything more certain than if Bush called for this fascist surveillance that the liberal press from the New York Times to the network news to a smirking Jon Stewart (for about 3 weeks straight along with out of context clips) would have skewered him at witch-burning levels even they had not reached, and congressional democrats would have been so apoplectic you'd have seen Nancy Pelosi's face move? Bush asked to have DANGEROUS behavior reported, not dissenting behavior, and you all wanted him impeached.
So, I am a small fish, but a few thousand people read and commented on this essay I've attached a link to (www.stumblingontruth.com). And I've copied them all.
Please print the essay. Read it and learn something and stop your attempted coup d'etat of our free system that will lead to pain and suffering for all the people, but power for yourselves, so I understand giving it up may be tough for you.
If not convinced, roll up the essay, stick it where the collectivist sun does not shine, and then put your name on the waiting list to see the government provided "free" proctologist in 6-12 months. It will give you some small insight into how the American tax-payer feels.
The existence of this monitoring and “informing on thy neighbor” effort is embarrassing to America.
Mr. Obama, tear down this firewall (firewall makes no sense here but the pentameter is beautiful and it's vaguely related to the internet).
- Cliff Asness
Ps. Some fun links
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-_SGGcJu_c
http://reason.tv/video/show/obama-to-citizens-on-health-ca
http://reason.tv/roughcut/show/paul-krugman-gets-owned-on-hea
»
- 9722 reads
- Printer-friendly version
- Send to friend
Similar Articles You Might Enjoy:
- A "Criminally Insane" Cliff Asness Takes On Health Care Mythology And Pretty Much Everything Else
- Damien Hoffman Touches A Jim Cramer Nerve
- On Jon Stewart's Ongoing Vendetta Against CNN
- Deconstructing Gingrich
- Jon Stewart Brings Solyndra Mainstream: "That Custom Tailored Obama Scandal You Ordered Is Finally Here"
Nice, "Dear Leader and Minions". Check out his take on "Health Care Mythology" too:
http://www.stumblingontruth.com/
Disappointing post. Just what we need is another NewsMax website for Right-wing trollery.
Get a clue: politics as 'real' is for rubes, a WWF sideshow to keep our attention diverted and the PTB's money a-rollin' in. Stick to what's legit, TD, following the money, not some asshat's missive about ACORN, Black Panther thugs and other right-wing prevarications and urban myths. Hell, this isn't even right-wing, but astroturf ginned up to defend the status quo of insurance comapanies, over-paid lawyers in white coats and stethescopes, Big Pharma and all the other parasites feeding on the American people. Right and Left ought to be uniting to fight the real power, the banking oligarchy (YouTube: The Obama Deception) and criminals of the power elite who have staged a quiet coup against this nation and these people.
On the other hand, flag@whitehouse.gov is just plain sick.
Concur. Politics is distraction to cover the sleight of hand.
However, I don't know about anyone else, but I've been forwarding 100% of the spam email I get from Amazon, eBay, paypal, etc., to flag@whitehouse.gov and asking Rahm to decode it for hidden GOP messages and I would encourage everyone to do the same. You can't be too careful these days and who knows what is buried in the last spam email I received from swapalease.com.
For all we know, it is only a matter of time until Reggie Jackson retrives GOP talking point from under second base and robotically strolls into a town hall meeting "Must kill health care bill.... Must kill health care bill...."
Here you go, Obama sells out to big Pharam, here's your reform
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWIECgQH6rs
A Capitalist is the same as nappy headed Fascist you must be an asshat left, right or in the middle you are an asshat!
"An outstanding piece on health care entitled “Utopia vs. Freedom” outlines that health care reform is actually a choice between freedom and slavery; many of the thoughts which should be part of the debate are presented:
In some excellent work done BEFORE it was taken from public view, here are some of the NASTY details from a doctor in Florida:
Page 16: A provision making INDIVIDUAL private Medical insurance illegal
Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Health Card.
Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer."
It's either true or it is not. By the way, I have had experience with managing health care costs in a PPO environment of roughly 3,000 employees. 80% of health care costs are driven by 20% of participants - obesity, smoking, and drinking were leading lifestyle choices that tended to also cause disease that shows up in the 20% of the population driving 80% of the costs (this accounts for a high percent of costs including cancer & heart disease). We do need to address personal responsibility and prevention.
For those individuals that think this is a republican / democrat question realize that Bush signed an order in April of 2008 that allows hospitals to take blood samples of babies and store the DNA information permanently without parental consent.
With individual rights and eminent domain being trampled by both parties (including the patriot act), your faith would be misplaced to blindly trust party or corporation - everyone is self interested and they don't care about you. Your body is the last frontier of freedom. Many individuals feel life is precious and should be supported in all its forms, including 3rd trimester pregnancies, the handicapped, and even the compromised elderly. To let the government forcibly take your money (tax) and promote/sponsor policies that may threaten any of these three groups is a moral hazard.
That said, there should be some reform including best practices to eliminate malpractice (wrong limbs amputated), up front open pricing disclosures & procedure standards, equal pricing for medicare and individual pricing (application of the Robinson - Patman act for services), generic doctor & hospital success rates for various procedures, cap rates for lawsuits based on a much larger scale like worker's comp (multi-million award & criminal penalties possible but capped), & harsh penalties and fines for medicare cheats. These are worthy changes that the corporations will probably fight as well, but they are reasonable and do not give government control over your body. All of you keep your laws off my body folks that support choice should join this fight.
What I would love to know is how something like a pandemic threat (Swine Flu real or promulgated - Kissinger) would be handled, and if it would allow forced vaccinations since government would control health care and your body under this plan. We have had a history of having more people die from vaccinations than from the swine flu itself in 1976. An exclusion was just given for vaccination pharmaceutical companies that in an "emergency" they wouldn't be responsible and couldn't be sued as a result of deaths.
I would be in favor of breaking up the huge carriers, advantaging private sector competition, and better state and local regulation, but no federal mandates.
For example, the large carriers do volume deals with large health care organizations, and basically advise them to screw uninsured patients when they come in, hitting them with ridiculous bills which they have no bargaining power to contest. They justify this by saying they are irresponsible for not being insured. Price discrimination here is wrong.
Insurance should never be mandatory, and people should not be punished for choosing to forego it.
Imo, insurance companies have become state adjunct.
The Marxists will hang them with the rope they sold them, same with Goldman, et al. Not much different than the auto industry. The oil industry better take note, as well.
Preoccupation with consolidation to protect from competition, to provide "certain efficiencies" missing in the free market, inevitably leads to this crapola.
I am in nearing my 3rd month of unemployment with no unemployment check, I doubt I am counted on the Unemployment numbers yet. With clerical errors causing delays, furloughs causing excessive workloads, and the plain incompetence of the gov't, I have yet to have spoken to someone from the California EDD.
I have resorted to calling my State Assemblymen, who called the EDD, who called me back on sat AM, and didn't leave a name, when I called back the number, at the designated time, no answer... This is not disinformation, this is a real world experience, I am all for everyone having health care, but if I were sick, and EDD was gov't health care, I would be dead by now...
Flag me brown shirts! Flag the California EDD!! Flag the entire F'N SYSTEM!!!!
Hang in there. We're all in for a ride.
Dude, the government is broke because GS and other parasites stole all the money.
Here's a backdoor number to the Sac field office. It may ring-no-answer a couple times, but someone will pick up the phone eventually.
916-654-7401
Good luck with that.
Thanks, that's the number that was left on my msg. I've been calling all day...I do apprieciate the effort sir/mam.
You're posts are funny. You're an angry unemployed loser. Thanks for providing entertainment.
Time to ship you off to Afghanistan youngster.
Angry and Unemployed is right, loser, maybe... I spent all that money on a degree, Company down sized, now I can't get a job, and I can't get my unemployment. If that makes me a loser, c'est la vie, at least I got my name in all those movies....
Anon #32030... that was uncalled for... what were you thinking... lighten up... otherwise I have found that in my experience life tends to make you 'next up for bat'.
Fuck off.
anon #32030,
there but for the grace of God go you.
oh man i love little bastards like you; i used to hire them to work for me, and let them run loose; and normally being the morons they are they bought a new car, new apartment etc whit what they thought they will make working for me; and then i fired them and enjoyed the fact that they were now miserable and with nothing they can call their own. and i really hope you experience the same. you are just like one of those little pesky fucks.
That was fabulous... just what needed to be conveyed...
DOD,
Although I do not exactly share your pain, I can empathize. Went on UI in June. Had a two week temp assignment in early to mid-July, causing the claim to close. When the assignment ended I spent two days attempting to reopen the claim. Had to resort to calling the governor's office in Springfield, MA to accomplish the prestidigitation of reopening the claim. BTW, it is now difficult at best to file weekly claim on the web site and yesterday I spent 7.5 hours (7 am - 2:30 pm) attempting to file by phone before I was successful. But, compared to your story, mine is a cakewalk. Very sorry you are going through this. It drives home the multiple horror stories I have heard about CA UI. Again, very sorry you are being dealt such bullshit.
Thanks BSL797, it sucks, sorry you're in a similar situation, but I know there are people that are a lot worse off than either of us. I can't imagine someone with children that might have to go through this, with house payments and/or car payments. I have taken up MMA training to kill some of stress, and it does help, I have been brutalizing the pucnhing bags.
I wasn't bringing it up for sympathies sake, I was bringing it up to give a real world example of gov't agencies and how well things work when they are run by Uncle Sam. Believe me, with the number of calls to my State Assemblymans office, and the letters I've been writing, I'm pretty sure I'm on the no fly list at this point...
=) And Proud of it!
Hope it gets better for all of us... but I'm still not goin' long in this market, not till banks prove they can provide a function other than stealing my money....
good luck!
The situation has prompted me to rediscover my innate survival skills (all sorts); that and the extra time it has afforded me to read, question and learn have been silver linings. Sounds like the MMA training has been one of yours. I won't comment on long or short these markets. But the fundamentals (what are fundamentals?) do not justify these levels, IMO. As such, only 20% of my capital is committed to equities markets. Banks? Where to start? LOL
Good luck to you too.
32442 me (forgot to log in).
but if I were sick, and EDD was gov't health care, I would be dead by now...
----------------
This is a totally ignorant remark. Emergency care would still be the same. Even if they couldn't get your records, they would still have to fix you up.
and you have looked into your crystal ball and determined that what you state is the case?
GS STK TANKING PAST 2 DAYS, LEADING INDICATOR FOR FINANCIALS & MKT AS A WHOLE!! SHORT THE HELL OUT OF IT, THE MOMENT HAS ARRIVED!!!
dude.. (wrong site)
The behavior at the meetings on health care was shameful. There is no disguising it behind "Free Speech". Anyone with a shread of dignity and intelligence knows how to behave in public, and how to engage in open debate. Instead of witnessing a meeting of Americans concerned about changes to their society, we see behavior more resembling mobs of Taliban supporters incapable of engaging in running their own country.
People have opinions, people have ideas, and some people want to be informed as to what all sides have to contribute to the discussion. By supporting these disruptive demonstrations you do a disservice to this country.
Right, it's not like Congress will only field screened and approved questions, it's not like everyone and there mother didn't write a letter or make a phone call saying no to bailouts, it's not like Congress is in any way antagonistic in their blatant refusal to listen to the people or anything like that. I'm sure as long as we just stand in line and say "please" and "thank you" every thing will work out just fine and everyone will be heard.
What planet are you from man?
I'm sure if the American Revolutionaries would have just been more polite, King George would have rethought his position on the whole thing...
Dude -- If the people actually asked questions and didnt just scream and rant like a buncha lunatics, then it would be fine.
If you have civil discourse and people can hear eachothers opinions, that is one thing. To go out there and scream your face off and yell "LIAR!!!" everytime your represetantive attempts to reply to a question, well then that is just utter crap.
Its a town hall meeting, not a lynching (as some republicans have attempted to recreate in effigy)
"If the people actually asked questions and didnt just scream and rant like a buncha lunatics"
So if people scream and "rant" they are lunatics? You my friend are the problem, if gov't did something for the people, maybe they wouldn't be so pissed... Scream and rant, that's called a pissed off human who has been given no other recourse, it's what happens when people start to feel represed, ever had an argument with girl/boyfriend cuz they were smothering you? By your logic all domestic disputes are because the couples are lunatics, not because one is taking advantage of the other... wake up man...
There is a time to be nice, and that lasts until it is time to not be nice.
Yes - People screaming and ranting makes them lunatics.
The same way a protester on the left was called the same when they were able to SNEAK into a republican setting, after they were prescreened.
These people offer nothing but uncivil discourse aimed at preventing discussion as opposed to shaping what is going to happen anyways.
I dont want to say you are brainwashed, but man, your distaste for normal discussion is out of this world.
Go get your Obama = Hitler Health Care = Nazi signs ready and go fight the good fight.
The only people screaming are those whipped up by PR firms with lies about their grandmas being killed off because they are unproductive, and those doing the whipping.
Its easy to scare some old people into a tissy fit, thats what right wing radio is for, so its not a fair comparison.
"The only people screaming are those whipped up by PR firms with lies about their grandmas being killed off because they are unproductive, and those doing the whipping."
That seems to be a bit of a hasty generalization, do you have any evidence to back this up, or, like most propagandists, are you just talking out of your a$$?
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/health-care-reform/2009/07/drugmakers_g...
Yes.
Why dont you do some research on "Rick Scott" and Conservatives for Patient Rights,Americans for Prosperity, and Freedom Works while you are at it.
A lack of information (by your own volition) doesnt make something false, just makes you uninformed. If you are unemployed as you state, maybe you should spend the time doing some research instead of blovating on speculation (or is that why you got fired from where ever you worked and troll financial blogs now?)
"CPR--which is headed by disgraced hospital executive Rick Scott, and has enlisted the message men behind the Swift Boat campaign--has acknowledged their behind-the-scenes role in the outbursts.
Spokesman Brian Burgess tells Greg Sargent that CPR is distributing "town hall alert" flyers to people on its mailing lists and is reaching out to third party groups via online list serv."
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/americans-for-prosperity-comp...
The speaker repeats the debunked conservative canard that Democratic health care reform will mandate physician assisted suicide. "Adolf Hitler issued six million end of life orders--he called his program the final solution. I kind of wonder what we're going to call ours."
So yes, whipping by PR firms to scare the shit out of ignorant people is in full swing.
use your time off to become smarter, it might do you some good
I am well aware of FreedomWorks, as well as Health Care Unions, my point being simply putting someone in one of those categories because they speak out against the Obamacare ram rod job is a leap in logic, not to mention unsubstantiated hearsay, which is not to say it is not happening, it is to say that you may try and entertain the idea that there are educated people that want reform, but not necessarily THIS reform. To ignore that is of course your choice.
you asked for proof, i provided.
You cant even agree with evidence when presented.
If people wanted other reform, especially the groups I noted, they wouldn't whip people to be unruly. Thats the point.
Opposing views are great, when they are view points that are useful to discussion, as opposed to NOOOOOO!!!!
again you miss the point, and cling to your hasty generalizations...good day....
It's pretty much a waste of time providing facts to right wingers. Most right wingers are highly allergic to facts. You'll notice that if you start pointing out facts that contradict their deeply held beliefs they will become very uncomfortable and begin squirming a great deal. Clearly a case of fact induced hives. ;-)
Labels, do they make you feel more comfortable about your position?
"You'll notice that if you start pointing out facts that contradict their deeply held beliefs they will become very uncomfortable and begin squirming a great deal."
Unlike the Obamanites who just flag you to the brown shirts.
You're a fucking 'moran' is what you are.
see above your post :)
It appears that it makes you more comfortable to put the world into a two party, black - white, system that doesn't really exist. I just don't want government health care or any more meddling of government into society. I wouldn't want it if it was Bush or any other Republican.
I notice that war protestors have disappeared despite the mass scaling up of the war in Afghanistan. Is that war ok because its operated by a different president?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOjfxEejS2Y
One this that *is* for sure is the creation the countries foundation and the drafting of the initial documents could not have been possible had the founding fathers stood around Independence Hall screaming like general jackasses.
I don't particularly care for the way we handle healthcare currently, and I have some experience to draw on. That does not neccessarily mean I support the administration's plan at all. I want to hear all the options, including doing nothing.
"One this that *is* for sure is the creation the countries foundation and the drafting of the initial documents could not have been possible had the founding fathers stood around Independence Hall screaming like general jackasses."
Are you implying that they didn't, if so could you post your sources please?
um... i think the "screaming and ranting" was called "the American Revolution".....
The American revolution and health care reform are quite a different subject. You guys are truly nuts.
Really, I seem to recall the Revolution was started over taxation without representation, that is to say, decisions were being made without the consultation of the people for whom they would effect. Although there are other stories out there that I'm not as well versed on, but my understanding was that England was making decisions, without hearing what how the Americans felt about it, such as taxing tea. Sounds distinctly similar, although granted not identical. However I think anyone with an IQ>= to their shoe size realizes events don't need to be identical to be compared, it is as much the differences as the similarities that make the comparison worth examining.
D.O.D. I fully appreciate you making the stand against the moronic inviduals too stupid to realize what is taking place in this country. But, honestly, they will never see the light of reason. Just let it go, it's not worth your patience and blood pressure. Or mine for that matter.
They are well and fully blinded by the whole idea of supporting a blue or a red candidate. Honestly, we see the full cauldron of ingredients leading to a sociatal breakdown taking place at the moment - and let me tell you, this will simply come down, in the end, as a very bad event of chaos and killing between blues and reds. It may even compound itself up to the level of blue states and red states.
The more I watch the events transpiring in this country (and now evolving onto the plane of physical violence) the more I see blood flowing on the streets on a state wide level in our future.
If everyone just simply ignored the right and the left and remembered what it was to be American and what our constitution was created and stand for, all of this could be avoided. But they can't, they won't, it's human nature. We have been divided by ignorance. And the more I hear the debates, the screaming, the fist pounding the more I realize how utterly screwed this nation is. For a long time now this nation has had no sense of self. And everyday the ideas behind America fade further and further from the collective thought of its own people. Arguing with blues, or wondering where the true reds have gone makes no difference anymore.
The blues will get what they have always wanted. They will get it and cheer uproariously, and then the world will fall apart around them so quickly and violently that they will still be standing, dumbfounded, with their American flags in hand, clothes off and body raped thoroughly whilst not having the foggiest notion of what the hell just transpired.
It's the way it has always happened throughout history to all of the great empires. Red? Blue? Who cares... America? All but gone... And I assure you, America will errupt into bloodshed one day, but no one will remember that true day upon which it faded into eternity with nothing more than a whisper of desperation.
Very eloquently put Anon, though a bit over the top even for me, not that I disagree. I am just hoping for an alternative ending...still I am constantly reminded of that genius documentary, Idiocracy.
+1
Very nice and well stated...
+1 again. We need a comments vote key.
DOD,
One of the other stories (apologies for the lengthiness) out there about causality of the Revolutionar War: link http://www.saltcube.com/out-of-body/chat-forum/viewTopic.jsp?t=29238
"During a visit to Britain in 1763, The Bank of England asked Benjamin Franklin how he would account for the new found prosperity in the colonies. Franklin replied.
"That is simple. In the colonies we issue our own money. It is called Colonial Script. We issue it in proper proportion to the demands of trade and industry to make the products pass easily from the producers to the consumers.
In this manner, creating for ourselves our own paper money, we control its purchasing power, and we have no interest to pay to no one."
Benjamin Franklin 1
America had learned that the people's confidence in the currency was all they needed, and they could be free of borrowing debts. That would mean being free of the Bank of England.
In Response the world's most powerful independent bank used its influence on the British parliament to press for the passing of the Currency Act of 1764.
This act made it illegal for the colonies to print their own money, and forced them to pay all future taxes to Britain in silver or gold.
Here is what Franklin said after that.
"In one year, the conditions were so reversed that the era of prosperity ended, and a depression set in, to such an extent that the streets of the Colonies were filled with unemployed."
Benjamin Franklin
"The colonies would gladly have borne the little tax on tea and other matters had it not been that England took away from the colonies their money, which created unemployment and dissatisfaction. The inability of the colonists to get power to issue their own money permanently out of the hands of George III and the international bankers was the PRIME reason for the Revolutionary War."
- Benjamin Franklin's autobiography
According to some, in modern/early industrial times forward (arbitrarily say 1700s) the ultimate causality for all wars can ultimately be traced to money/debt/bankers.
Nancy ... you read Zerohedge?
Didn't think the Botox allowed your brain that kinda freedom ...
The Democrats/Obama/SEIU fired the first shot. Don't like the self-defense response? Screw you.
Well said. These were thugs, flashing accusing Obama of being a Nazi, What bullshit.Where were all these assholes when Bush went to war. or signed the patriot act, the most Orwellian piece of legislation ever devised in our country? Knock off this shit please.
EXACTLY.
WH has no place asking for us to track all this misinformation but where were these clowns when Bush & Cheney raped the Bill of Rights?
This country can't go Mad Max fast enough for my satisfaction.
Dear tool,
If you believe being loud in a public meeting is nazilike, what is eight years of portraying Bush as a vampire, babboon, Nazi, etc? Oh, right...it's social critique.
What does hypocricy taste like?
LOL times 10^27 !!
Too funny.
#31643,
most elements of the Patriot Act were attempted to be legislated during the Clinton Administrations (after the first Trade Center bombing). They just weren't able to get it passed.
I happen to be independent. I am anti both wars we are currently waging and this is driven home by watching what a tour of duty in Iraq did to my youngest stepson; he's in one piece but it clearly messed with the kid's mind.
I also made the mistake of voting Obama last November. The health care plan as currently proposed is a joke. You might answer "better this than nothing." But, with a price tag of at least $1.7 trillion shouldn't we make sure we get it right, even if it takes 6-12 months instead of what, 4-6 weeks?
The real problems the country is facing go much deeper than Dem v. Pub, which is really light gray v. charcoal gray. Both parties have been bought and paid for by corporate interests. As such, we find ourselves subject to corporate socialism, while the taxpayer foots the bill. Ultimately, I suspect 98% of us will get to experience capitalism in the raw. Just my two cents.
Another liberal whining that their tactics are being used against them.
You all make me puke.
You had better understand what a cult is and hope that the current situation in the media changes and balanced view of reporting comes to the fore.
As you are wrapped in your own democratic ignorance, I doubt whether you would know what fair and reasonable is, nor ethics and morals.
#31587 "The behavior at the meetings on health care was shameful...Anyone with a shread of dignity and intelligence"
compared to whom? perhaps our illustrious leaders who don't even bother to read legislation before voting on it? or perhaps our dear leader who speaks with forked tongue?
The problem is that this is not a debate, rather it is an agenda.
Yep.
"Behave in public"? Oh you mean like the poor man that was beat up by libtards in St. Louis for expressing his views in a polite manner?
The only ass hats that do a disservice to this country are Pollyannas like yourself.
Wake up you moron.
Was that polite and dignified enough for you?
No the behavior of the elected officials has been and continues to be disgusting. I almost hope to see cap and trade and government healthcare pass just to see how much civil unrest this would create. Bring it on.
I can't wait for the government end of life consultation
Time to take one for the team grandma. Now take the end of life pill and shut up.
You can't wait? what you mean by that?
That law was brought in by a republican in 1999 and was signed in 2001 and since been in Madicare. And now is intended to be for everyone not only old ones. I believe that Tery Shiavo would have been happy if she was asked that question before she was on machines for 17 years and then have the whole government debate shamefully about who has the right to disconect breathing aparatus. I have not seen more intrusive US government intervention in a private life then that.
So much stupidity without fact check. Oh i know with fackt checking you would not have something to complain about.
That law says that government will every five years pay YOU PHYSYCIAN for end of life consultation. Something like DNR, donoretc. It does not say government will consult with you, it will pay your doc for such consultation.
Stupid
LOL, have you even READ THE HEALTH CARE BILL?!
I have. All of it. You have no idea what you are talking about because you aren't a lawyer and don't understand the subtle language of "legaleeze" - not to mention that you haven't read it. Because had you read it, you would be the first person on here screaming about how it made your bowels liquify and quickly exit down your leg.
Loop holes, are part of ALL bills, whether rejected or voted into legislation. When you read any form of legislation presented you need to look for them (loopholes) and actually THINK (something I am not sure you are all too familiar with) about how it could be construed before the supreme court (who has the final say.) And, my not so good friend and fellow American, when you read this bill (compared to all of the others I have readin my life) you really cannot say or do anything, for your jaw falls open and your mind reels at the insane possibilities this bill allows for in terms of controlling the people of these United States. If euthanasia was just the worst part I would probably feel some mild discomfort, but as a whole, this bill is written with nothing short of evil as its main intention.
And that's the worst part about it, it's a healthcare bill. One that will bring nothing but death to many many American's when they require (as we all eventually do) healthcare. The irony would be so very funny, if it wasn't so damned horrifying.
Do yourself a favor. Learn to read, and read the bill. Fully. Only a person with less than a 100 IQ wouldn't realize what's in it. That's how blatant the speech in this bill is.
Why don't you quote the language in the bill that you claim is "evil," especially where it requires euthanasia?
I think its because no such language exists.
BTW--do any of these elderly deather thugs who are trying to shut down democratic debate actually undestand that their Medicare is a government-run single payer program?
Do they understand that Veterans Administration healthcare is socialised medicine where the government hires doctors and runs hospitals directly?
Nope, they are fools.
Have you ever tried to get care at a VA hospital? My stepson has. It is pretty freaking horrific and he has access to one of the good ones. Same with my neighbor across the street. Has it ever crossed your mind that folks like this, having experienced the "quality" of socialized medicine first hand, might just actually care about their fellow citizens and not want to see ALL of them subjected to the same "quality" of care? Nope, they're just fools to you. 'Dem certainly don't have near the book-learnin' you do, I'm sure. They just have to base their opinions on what real life feeds them every day.
Ah, good old "anonymous" posters defending the Administration again.
How much does an officer of the Thought Police make these days, anyway?
"Of the people, By the people, and for the people."
Abe Lincoln.
Last I checked this is the RULE of the ROAD!!
The union disrupted plenty of meetings in the 80's with Ronald Reagan. Get history.
Amen brother!
This is yet another poorly penned missive. Even if this was written by someone more competent in the usage of the English language, the result would be the same: you put lots of letters and symbols together and for all that effort you get nothing.
A more effective form of communication would be one that exits a long tube travelling at well more than the speed of sound, perhaps double or, if you really want to send a statement, triple that.
Why people waste their time trying to send cute messages to our would-be overlords is beyond me. Do you also send letters to your local newspaper editor? Do you follow the instructions in every spam e-mail you get to "remove you from future mailings", only to receive ten times the volume subsequently? You probably also pray to God, don't you?
If you're going to masturbate, do it in private, please. But if you really want to send a message, a trip down to your local sporting goods store (while you still can) would be a much more expressive and functional form of vocalization.
I am Chumbawamba.
Are you suggesting the violent overthrow of a duly elected party? That ran on health care reform and won? Hmmm. That my is fascism, not the other way around.
No, I am advocating that we shoot all of our politicians. Is that clear enough for you?
I am Chumbawamba.
Um you might want to ask Mr. Turner at the Turner Network how much fun he had being arrested. You can't threaten like this, you retard.
That's a terrorist threat. Forwarded to the FBI, with links and comments, even if Tyler pulls it, you are tagged.
Screaming mimis like you are going to drive everyone off a cliff.
Hmmmmm. Also ran on greater transparency of government? Do we have that? Please don't answer and make yourself look foolish. Seen the latest deadline for full troop withdrawal from Iraq or listened to the Sec of Defense's latest responses to questions about it? Bet you haven't but they certainly don't jive with yet another campaign promise. In fact, I'm pretty certain the idea that voters had in mind with regard to health care reform was very far removed from HR 3200. Do you even know what fascism is? Hint: it's not "violent overthrow of a duly elected party" (strange, I thought candidates ran in elections). Furthermore, the author whose post you found offensive advocated all politicians, not "a duly elected party." This isn't about party. People thinking it is is part of the problem.
Should forward this to the Bureau, just in case you are an Oswald nut job.
Please!
I am Chumbawamba.
I gave them a heads up. The blue windbreakers will be in touch with you.
Same here. Just can't be too careful, probably one of those guys that would have sprayed a classroom full of kids when younger.
I hate to break this to you, TD, but Cliff Asness is a total nut job.
Cliff is colorful to say the least.
Read Sun Tzu. You lose credibility with this shit.
Narrator/Industry/Brutus
What shit? Speaking honestly? You are so used to being lied to, and lying, that someone speaks the truth without fear and you call him a nut job.
Tyler --
I just hope you are aware that if Cliff Asness delivers an e-mail to whitehouse.COM, he might get a "dirty" reply in return.
Of course, it could well be the audience he's seeking.
OOOOOHHHH... you said Orwellian and Totallitarian in the same sentence. Surely you've been flag@whitehosed for that one. Utterly subversive. Besides, you, your staff and every single contributor has probably already been flag@whitehosed for your unpatriotic failure to simply obey and get long already. Peace is war. Media lobotomy is being informed.
Simply wonderful and we need many more post like this one. What is really so sad is all the ass wipe representatives just blindly follow allong. Screw what the people want. This may get ugly.
Nothing to see here. Move along, move along....
Great stuff.
The Administration wishes that they had someone that can write like Asness.
31587 exactly
The most telling thing about these "protesters" is that they clearly have no idea about where we are, let alone what is being proposed to change.
Everyone should have the right to free speach, that does not mean that they have to agree with you. There are way too many instances where these 'protesters' are fighting for views and positions that don't even begin to recgonise reality.
If I were building a house and someone wanted to tell me that structrually, you don't need walls, I would take that with a grain of salt.
The right just woke up after 8 years and finds that things are not as they seem. How can you offer opinions when you don't understand where you are starting from?
Tyler, how about you put that computing power to work and actually show how much of new treasury issuance is paying for checks Bush wrote? I bet he's still spent more than Obama, not that I am a fan of either.
Let me summarize your waste typing out multiple paragraph(s) ...
"BUT BOOOOSSSSHHHH!"
just like a redneck, why use words, why not just grunt, are you scratching yourself at the same time for emphasis?
Typical. You spent the last eight years whining about Bush, while deriding Republicans for whining about Clinon.
Do you get dizzy from chasing your tail, Sparky?
Unrelated:
is anyone else getting this uneasy feeling in the stomach of calmness of the market prior to storm?
I am working on a metric that attempts to predict the severity of the oncoming investor (or robot) shellacking as a proportion of the level of complacency in the markets. Such a tool may already exist, but I haven't found it. At any rate, yes. I get the eye of the hurricane feeling more than the calm before the storm.
Just distribution folks, Big money has to sell their shares to johnny come lately before they dump it...But yes, it smells like honey...
LOL,
I have been sending flag@whitehouse.gov copies of all Obama's speeches on healthcare reform as "fishy". Sounds like bad info to me.
Thats funny... even though I do support some form of Health Care Reform... I bet that email account has some pretty interesting items in it by now...
we spend more on illness / injury care [certainly not on health care] than any other industrialized nation and fail to crack the upper ranks of longevity and infant mortality. something clearly needs to change and i for one applaud any attempt to reform this misbegotten industry.
as to a gov't payor system i can't say i like the specification i'm seeing so far as they really don't do enough. candidly, while i am a capitalist pig i am no longer a free-marketeer. the 'free' in free-markets is a measure of how much advantage can be taken when you're able to leverage wealth and power to attain even more of both from those least able to fend off the vultures. so far as i'm concerned i hope they burn the insurance companies to the ground. they deserve it. there is no sensible reason to have a for-profit barrier, grotesquely magnifying our costs and dramatically diluting the care and service delivery, between us and our health.
does that mean it should all be free? of course not. i can't say it would bother me if a new tax were imposed. if the administration wants to institute a mandatory tax with no loopholes to the tune of several thousand dollars per year, i'll applaud them. after all, it would be a dramatic cut in costs and and a tremendous boost in peace of mind.
you're right ... we do make terrible choices ... which spawns an entirely separate thread when it comes to social inequality and the plain and simple notion that so large a portion of the population behaves as if theyre functionally ignorant.
you're absolutely right about our medical services, which was not at all the point of my previous post. so far as i can determine we in the USA are second to none in terms of the care, services, etc we can offer. it IS the method by which we pay for it which needs to be addressed.
so, first and foremost, this is a nice example of what should be going on. give and take .. discourse .. points made, no shouting. of course while a lot of the shouting were seeing is staged to pollute and delay the discussion i've no doubt that much of it is sincere ... sincerely inappropriate.
my solution would be for the gov't to found a series of not-for-profit health-care organizations. i don't think having a single-payor system will work very well as it will rapidly become a monopoly and so have no incentive to provide palatable customer service. i'm flexible though and open to discussion. where i dig my heels in is the point where we do anything to continue the current system of for-profit leeches who have been wrecking our economy for decades.
thank you kindly for the perspective. i don't entirely agree with everything you say but thats the nature of debate and i applaud your taking the time to say something sensible.
Stop being an adult. I mean it, knock it off, that kind of behavior just doesn't belong in this debate.
I agree with you that the single payer system is probably a non-starter, if only because the temptation to inject politics into personal decisions is just too great. Unfortunately, I think our government tries to manage outcomes, which is an exercise in futility. In my opinion, the government should be making sure we all have access to the same level of care (without lowering the standard for everyone). I would also favor more personal responsibility towards our choices, but I also believe we should help those who truly need it.
My biggest problem with current proposals is that they all seem to fly in the face of conventional economics. If you make something "free" (or obscure the true cost), you will have consumers demand more of it. Then there's the whole ugly spiral of what medical professionals face and the likely choices they make. Having too much government involvement makes a bad situation worse.
There is definitely a problem with the insurance companies, and in my opinion the fact that most people get health insurance through their employer is a huge obstacle. It's also a key reason why wage growth has been stagnant. Companies pay benefits and don't care if it is comes in the form of a salary or health insurance. As the cost of insuring employees has risen, the difference inevitably came out of wages.
I'd like to see an end to the practice of tying health insurance to your employer. This would increase portability and allow for greater customization of policies. Insurance would be purchased out of pocket, and tax credits would be provided. You can subsidize some people, but I worry about "nationalization creep" as a means of trying cover everyone. I would also like to see a national health insurance market, whereby I can purchase a customized policy from any company in any state. This means lower regulatory barriers, so great oversight would have to exist at state levels to ensure that policy holders are protected. If these steps are taken, I begin to feel better about insurance mandates (at least for catastrophic coverage). Finally, there needs to be clearer language and less wiggle room for insurance companies to avoid paying claims they have agreed to cover. This is a sad ploy that too many insurance carriers get away with.
One other thing I'd like to see is a financing option for extreme medical expenses. We are not expected to pay cash up front for a car or other big-ticket items, so why not allow for people to finance medical and hospital expenses? I recognize there are risks here with failure to repay the obligation, but hopefully a hospital or doctor's office can recover SOMETHING back over time.
There are probably a myriad of holes in my suggestions, but I think they get the government out of the way and allow free markets to work. I am onboard with strict oversight and routine audits into insurance companies, but I think the chances of unintended consquences of getting the government more involved are potentially severe.
+10
That's exactly what his lawyers do, and they hope to get GS and that funny guy (Negroponte or something like that, who went on record saying "I have not idea what is the program value") to realize it's not worth their trouble to push Sergey any further
my good finance news & opinions
Perhaps our health care mess is---heaven forbid I say this---our own fault? At least partly?
Maybe if doctors did not feel compelled by fear of lawsuit to perform CAT scans when little Johnny goes in with a hang nail, just in case something truly bad is lurking in little Johnny's head....
Maybe if we didn't wolf down a pair of Cinnabuns and a tall triple mocha latte with extra whipped cream at 11 am "just to hold us over to lunch".....
Yes, there are folks who fall through the system, and as an (hopefully) advanced and compassionate society we should try to take care of folks in need, but I would venture a guess that the prime reason our health care costs are out of control vs., for example, Japan, is because the Japanese take care of themselves.
I live in Asia. On my visits back to the US I like to play a little parlor game. I walk through a mall and count the folks I see who are clearly over 300 pounds. In Asia, in the course of six months, I might see one such person. In a typical ten minute walk in a typical US mall, from Macy's to Nordstroms I see on average fifty 300 pounders.
Nobody made them get so big that their knees break down and arteries clog up. What I would like Obama to do, among other things, is start saying that we can cut costs if we start taking responsibility for ourselves. That, however, would be a nail in the coffin of any politician, since blaming "the man" for everything is so much easier.
I can rant, but this is similar to the whole economic crisis. Yes, banks pushed loans and credit cards on folks who could not afford them, but in the end everybody is responsible for him or herself.
Too much debt? Stop the GD spending. Too fat? Stop stuffing your GD face.
Oh yea, almost forgot this one....on 9/11/01 4000 Americans were killed and we have subsequently spent $2 trillion trying to track down those responsible or those we would like everyone to think was responsible (I mean Iraq, not a conspiracy theory).
We lose upwards of 500,000 people year in and year out to smoking, yet for decades we subsidized tobacco growers.
Sorry. Never mind. I'll go back to blaming the banks and big pharma for 100% of every ill facing us. Rather than take part of the blame, I'll give it all to them. Now I feel better. Somebody pass me that bag of Doritos and a pack of Camels? Going out to get me one of those new fangled 52' LED TV's before those fuckheads next door beat me to it and get one. Damn if I don't deserve it.
I thought it was fag@whitehouse.gov... My apologies to Barney Frank and Dick Armey.
If you think flag@whitehouse is bad, read everything you can about mandatory vaccinations and forced public quarantine by the US Military this autumn.
Read about the Baxter International, a US pharmaceutical corporation, and incidence in Austria and the Czech Republic and NORTHCOM's readiness to enforce mandatory vaccination. Baxter was found delivering live avian flu to 18 countries in vials labeled vaccine.
Read that is, if you want to chill your spine and worry about lost freedom. Although Baxter is currently being prosecuted in Austria, they are contracted to supply "vaccine" for the mandatory vaccination in the US the fall 2009.
See http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14580
and
http://birdflu666.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/case-about-bird-flu/
Freedom vs. totalitarianism, time to step up and choose.
No time left to avoid it.
What confuses the hell out of me is that people that are supposed to be intelligent here are defending a bunch of people that are screaming like raving lunatics.
The email address setup for monitoring health care lies isnt orwellian, its seeing what idiots like Sarah Palin and lobbyist groups put out.
Such accurate information includes:
"euthanizing grandma"
"euthanizing down syndrome babies"
"giving illegals free health care"
"setting up death panels"
For a site that prides itself in informing people of inaccuracies and lies, when it comes to something political, you are more than happy to continue to let them foster as opposed to nullifying them.
Yup, we got another buy and hold believer here...
Ahh yes.
Buy and Hold believer that my Grandma isn't going to be ran over by a panel of productivity experts. Yeah, I think ill take that bet.
The fact that you cant dismiss the inaccuracies with any facts and just ad hominem responses proves your political posturing as opposed to your ability to talk logically.
Thanks for pointing that out to everyone. Maybe you should have opted to post anonymous.
You are a buy and hold believer because you still think the gov't has your best interest at heart, I'm guessing you still believe in Santa?(That's an extrapolated guess and a question not a statement.) I've already posted my facts, and don't care to repost them, a little higher level cognitive research on your part may lead you to this conclusion, but alas, you are too busy trying to point fingers at the logical prowess of others to be concerned with what's going on around you. You want facts... go shopping on your credit card, buy a house, buy a car, and see how that works out for you...Maybe you should stay anonymous...
you are just pissed off that the Governator ran your state into the ground.
Maybe thats why there isnt money for your unemployment, or maybe the republicans that tore down additional funding that the dems wanted to throw at unemployement.
I was responsible, and have the money to any of the above said activities and hold a job (which im currently at). So you know what all that is ok with me.
Im sorry you have pent up agression due to unemployment being fucked up in your state, but that doesnt mean grandma is going to get run over by a reindeer of brownshirts because she is old and unproductive (which is the point of flag@white..)
Keep your arguments on topic
Hey I got a gubberment job too but at least I still have my wits about me...get a life poser.
huh? i work for a private accounting firm.
Strawman's and Ad Hominem's are abundant today!
Try again
Take the vaccine, please.
+1
"you are just pissed off that the Governator ran your state into the ground."
It's fantastic when a self proffesed student of logic throws out a red herring in an attempt to distract and trivialize his opponents point.
"I was responsible, and have the money to any of the above said activities and hold a job (which im currently at). So you know what all that is ok with me."
Implying that those who don't have a job and/or are unable to purchase a home or a vehicle are irresponsible? Classy, you MUST work for the gov't. As for your purchases prey tell have you made one, or are you boasting of your abilities without actually putting them to the test?
"Im sorry you have pent up aggression due to unemployment being fucked up in your state, but that doesnt mean grandma is going to get run over by a reindeer of brownshirts because she is old and unproductive"
Interesting leaps in logic there, did you go to school to be a critical thinker? cuz if so, your parents wasted their money.
I never said anything about grandmas or reindeer. So you must be arguing with someone else. My point is that the gov't can't do good for the people with the programs that it is currently running, worse, it lies as to the actuall successes of said programs, why should we be forced to ram rod another bill, that there are obviously many people who, for whatever reason, are unhappy with, other than to fulfill the agenda of the few and powerful? Why ignore the people simply because they don't agree? Worse, why report them because they have evidence that you and your brown shirts don't like?
Try and keep up smart guy...
ahh brownshirts, good job.
I dont need to post my bank account, im fine with where i am at.
I dont work for the GvT.
and your only post about how you have gvt is related to unemployment benfits in Cali, so its not a leap of logic.
check out the post above if you want to see some evidence of PR Firm Whipping of dumb people, i replied to you
you are officially beneath my notice...cheers.
D.O.D. Don't bother with some loser who is such a chickenshit he has to post as Anonymous.
BTW, I found these mobs of disruptive people. OMGWTFSCARY!
Yeah, old people, soccer moms and PTA attendees with babies sure are frightening.
This new propaganda campaign is BULLCRAP and everyone knows it. I guess you guys will have to try something even more desperate.
Good luck with that. Many states will SECEDE first.
http://thedanashow.wordpress.com/2009/08/06/meet-the-mob/
no one said they were scary (except the ones calling in death threats, hanging people in effigy and leaving guns at town hall meetings)
I said they prevent intelligent discourse by screaming NOOOO!!
Stop attempting to defray the actual points of contention into your nonsense. All you get from you RW are strawmen arguments.
Yeah, because the federal government of blues wanted so much discourse over the healthcare bill right?
No, they weren't trying to shove it down our throats before the recess. Of course they wouldn't do that, it was the media that made up that timeline! Obama never wanted this thing passed without proper debate! Obama would never want that, of course not.
Please, sir (or whatever you may be), don't come in here and talk about discourse when your own party of insipid idiots was trying to ram healthcare through when not even the Obama himself knows what is in the healthcare bill.
You want "intelligent" discourse when it suits you and those of your ilk. This healthcare bill needs months of study, amendments, heavy changes and THEN it might be ready for a vote. But do you want discourse on it? Heh. Hypocrite.
Honestly, why not go live in Venezuela? It's exactly the country you and your sub-par IQ friends want to make this country into. Why waste your time when you can HAVE IT ALL NOW?! Just go, and I would go before the real physical violence starts. Though I don't promote it, it's not hard to see that that is what is building up right now as blues and reds grow sick of each other, while simultaneously being squeezed to death slowly in our wonderful economy.
I'll give the reds this: Atleast they are, in the most part, fiscally conservative and appreciate a healthy free market economy. You blues on the other hand are deaf, dumb, blind and always bent over waiting for the next "great social redeemer" to come along and rape you some more.
Cindy, I have to admit, some of those T-Shirts were a little scary... =]
The main issue here seems to be people not understanding the old adage
ALL absolutes are FALSE.
On one side we have:
ANYONE who apposes health care is a right wing flunky and a mobster.
On the other side we have
ALL Health-Care reform is BAD.
Anyone with a shred of intellectual dignity can step back and realize ALL absolutes are FALSE.
Somehow a post about Obama's brown shirt tactics has been turned into a Health Care brawl, gotta be honest, I'm not sure how I got sucked into it...My beef is with the flag.gov BS.
My point is and has been, this is obviously a hot issue, and if there is so much confusion out there, then something is being done wrong, dare I say, by the gov't. I know they are so well known for their transparent dissemination of information, but the fact remains, for whatever reason people want to talk about Health-Care, so before any more forward progress can be made, something needs to be done to allow the people to speak publicly and candidly, without fear of retaliation from 'Obamanites', or 'Mobsters'. Everyone has the right to their opinion, and all should be heard in a public forum. The more the administration resists this, the more it appears they are trying to pull a fast one. I happen to lean on the side of another gov't fast one, but I also admit I don't have 100% of the facts, but who does? and why? And by 100% that means you need to have read the bill.
From my representitve
'What is a Telephone Town Hall? A Telephone Town Hall is like an in-person Town Hall but more people can participate at the same time from the comfort of their own home or any location where you have access to a telephone or cell phone. This type of town hall is especially convenient for families with children and others. '
"...more people can participate at the same time from the comfort of their own home..."
I mean come on, if that's not a load of bullshit....
"ALL absolutes are FALSE."
But that statement is an absolute that you proclaim to be true, which makes that statement a paradox unless you tack the paranthetical "(except this one)" at the end.
Seriously, though, I think people need to shrug off the false dichotomies they've been fed for the last couple of decades (at least) and realize that in the real world sound decision-making requires considering more than just two diametrically opposed options. I think these false dichotomies are the real culprit in the degradation of our national discourse in that they lead to absolutist position-taking.
"Don't bother with some loser who is such a chickenshit he has to post as Anonymous."
Well, said, Cindy_Dies_In_The_End. You can't be winners like us unless you are anonymous AND registered to post comments under a handle like D.O.D., Tao Jonesing, Tyler Durden, or Cindy_Dies_In_The_End. Zero Hedge membership has its privileges, and chief among those is the right to be taken seriously. Those cowardly, unregistered losers need to learn their place and sign up for a real pseudonym before their anonymous musings will be worthy of any response.
Proposition 13 combined with profligate spending ran California into the ground. Plenty of Dems and Pubs voted for the root causes of Cali's problems. Reducing it to "you are just pissed off that the Governator ran your state into the ground," is at best a simplistic view. At worst, that statement is intentional obfuscation.
@D.O.D,
It may not be that anonymous believes that the gov't has his/her best interests at heart. It could just be that anonymous KNOWS the health insurance companies don't.
Personally, I really cannot tell the angle that he/she is coming from based on the original post, which just claims that some of Cliff's assertions are devoid of any factual basis. That you believe (or know) that the gov't does not have your best interests at heart does not make those assertions any more or less factual.
Tao, I don't claim to "Know" what I don't, I do claim to have mountains of evidence that the current administration is not much different then the former administration, in fact, it may be worse. Could I be wrong, sure, it's happened before. But to choose blind faith over investigation and research, is the surest way to failure. I don't like pharma or big buisness health insurance either (see "Sick for Profit" by brave new films), but change for the sake of change without proper discourse and scrutiny could be out of the frying pan and into the fire. I think most people's biggest concern is the complete ignoring by congress and the administration to anyone that disagrees. This should be a red flag to everyone, and to anyone it is not, they should not be trusted.
You know, it would be great that there is proper discourse, but you advocated for unruly behavior at town hall meetings as valid due to 'all the agression and its all thats left in the end when no one listens'.
You are contradicting yourself at this point.
You cant call for screaming and then say you want proper discourse.... thats what Sarah Palin just did after saying her kid is gonna get euthenized (hint: if you want to be taken seriously, dont say that stuff)
The attempt at proper discourse has failed, that is my point that you so willfully ignore.
The discourse is failing because when our elected Representatives went home to discuss health reform with their constituents, they were met with angry, misinformed mobs who had been organized by corporate lobbying firms like so many sheep rising up to protest on behalf of the wolves.
Many of the reforms listed above, which you agreed were good, are in one or more of the 3 bills currently up for discussion. I'm not happy with any of the bills because I think that they are all watered down and the Dems were far too conciliatory to big pharma and the insurance companies, but I sure as hell don't want to be on the same side as the town hall screamers. My borderline personality disordered mother in law is one of these people. She calls my wife 5 times a day freaking out about death panels, forced abortions, 5 month waiting lists for dr. visits, her paycheck being direct deposited to an illegal and all of the rest of the bullshit that FOX news feeds the voices in her head.
We are talking about irrational nonsense, designed to whip the gullible and paranoid into a frenzy. Yes, I think it's a tactic used successfully by the Nazis. No, I don't think it will be successful now because our culture is too diverse and we are still a fairly stable society.
D.O.D.,
I agree with you that the current administration is not much different than the former administration, at least where it counts. I don't have any evidence that it is worse. Yet.
I agree with you that blind faith over investigation and research is a very bad idea, but what I see in Cliff's screed smacks of blind faith. And disagreeing with Cliff does not necessarily imply that blind faith on the part of the person disagreeing with him.
I agree with you that "change for the sake of change" never makes sense. There are always consequences to change. That being said, who is proposing change for the sake of change? Yes, Obama's campaign slogan was all about some unspecified "change we can believe in," which was ludicrous, but his governing has led us both to believe that his administration is "not much different than the former administration," so what change are we talking about? And do the Cliffs of the world bear any responsibility for the lack of "proper discourse and scrutiny" you believe to be the case? Emotionally-charged rants like Cliff's preclude any discourse or scrutiny regardless of the politics behind them.
As to what you identify as "most people's biggest concern," I'm curious about three things. First, I don't know who you think the adminstration and congress are completely ignoring. Second, since Cliff hits on so many different issues, I don't even know which issue or issues you think these people are being completely ignored about. Third, I don't understand what you think it means to be completely ignored. In other words, what do the administration and the congress have to do to stop completely ignoring these people about these issues and to demonstrate, to everyone's satisfaction, that they have done so?
If your comments were limited to how the Bush administration, the Obama administration and the congress handled the banking fiasco, I would have agreed with you without hesitation. Unfortunately, there's just such a mish-mash of emotionally charged issues in the air--some real, some spurious-- that I cannot do so at this time. Hence, all the questions.
Who is proposing change for the sake of change?
Anyone who believes this Health-Care bill is the answer without having, not only read it, but completely understanding its proposals and ramifications on ALL involved.
"First, I don't know who you think the adminstration and congress are completely ignoring."
People who disagree. People who want to be heard.
I somewhat assumed there is an implied preface that this is from my point of view, and my generalizations are extrapolations from those whom I have connected with.
I personally have been brushed off, ever so politely, on nearly every call to my Representatives. On topics from bailouts, to cap n' trade, to audit the fed and cash for clunkers. Once it took almost 6 months for a reply. And the bill had long since passed, and the discourse never came to fruition from my perspective. How many times have you contacted your Representatives?
"Second, since Cliff hits on so many different issues, I don't even know which issue or issues you think these people are being completely ignored about."
Cliff does hit on a lot of things, my main issue has been that the tactics of reporting "fishy" information, is and of itself fishy. Not sure if you've been paying attention for the last 8/9 years but this kind of stuff is getting very unnerving.
"Third, I don't understand what you think it means to be completely ignored."
I'm not sure I can explain it any better than that. Perhaps try dictionary.com?
I will conced I have a bit of a hyperbole style, and I am rather passionate about altruistic pursuits of freedom, but my case has been and will continue to be, if they won't listen, demand to be heard.
I should also point out, now the admin. wants to talk about respectful discourse, now that people are showing they are fed up with being steam rolled, they are fed up with big gov't acting more like big brother, now that people are showing they still have emotional interest in the direction this country is going.... Now the admin. wants to talk about respectful discourse. So lets open it up, let's bring the discourse out of the Halls of Washington, and into towns who will be effected, bring the bill, make sure people understand, and discuss. But, at least in my town, the discussion has been moved to the telephone, further alienating the people from their so called representative.
If you haven't tried to effect some change yourself, then no, I wouldn't think you would understand where I am coming from.
D.O.D.,
Thanks for the responses. You have been very prolific in your comments to this post. While I have read most, if not all, of your comments, I wanted to focus on the words you used in this comment to avoid assuming too much.
One follow-up: imagine that Obama and the democrat leaders of Congress sat down with you face-to-face, listened to everything you had to say, demonstrated to you that they understood everything you had to say, explained to you why they disagreed and proceeded to pass a law that you disagreed with for all of the reasons you explained to them, would you still believe that you had been completely ignored?
Every law that is passed is passed over somebody's objection. That doesn't mean they or their objections have been ignored. It means that they have been overruled.
I would rather they invited everyone, so I could get an idea if the representatives were actually representing or merely deciding.
"I would rather they invited everyone, so I could get an idea if the representatives were actually representing or merely deciding."
Fair enough. I will rephrase the hypothetical:
Imagine that Obama and the democrat leaders of Congress sat down with everyone face-to-face, listened to everything everyone had to say, demonstrated to you that they understood everything everyone had to say, explained to you why they disagreed with you and everyone who agrees with you, and proceeded to pass a law that you disagreed with for all of the reasons you explained to them, would you still believe that you had been completely ignored?
How would you answer?
At the end of the day, whether our representatives are "actually representing or merely deciding," they are going to have to decide, aren't they? And what if it turns out that the majority of the people they represent disagree with you and everyone who agrees with you?
I don't know what your answers will be, but I think that we can agree that somebody who refuses to do what you say is not ignoring you, they are disagreeing with you, and disagreement is a natural and expected result of proper discourse, as is agreeing to disagree.
"I think that we can agree that somebody who refuses to do what you say is not ignoring you"
I don't think it's a matter of doing what I say, I would prefer to be convinced by a demonstration of their total grasp of the matter, how and why they have come to their conclusion, and ultimately I love to be proven wrong through logic and critical thinking, and not simply be brushed off as simply unable to grasp the concepts being dealt with.
As the poster bellow me states, I prefer not to be brushed off as one of the "morons". It is after all my city, state, and country too. Though I am not blind to the morons that exist
http://cfecon.blogspot.com/2009/07/how-to-solve-all-of-californias.html
The poster points out the difference of Populism vs. Democracy, and he is, shockingly, way off base. California is a Republic, and as the old saying goes, a Democracy is two wolves and sheep voting on what to have for dinner, a Republic is two wolves and a sheep with a gun voting on what to have for dinner.
Point being, I just want an equal playing field, much like the markets, but feel I am being front run by special interests and lobbyists at every turn. But you're right, I may have a right to petition my govt', they, however, are under no obligation to actually listen, and perhaps that is my biggest problem.
Now I have answered your questions, you have yet to answer mine, have you yourself personally contacted any of your gov't officalls to petition your point of view?
Dammit! I hit "preview," and it ate my lengthy reply.
Here's a much abridged response to your question: In the past, I have personally contacted my elected representatives, including Feinstein, Boxer and Pelosi (I live in the SF Bay Area) and expressed my point of view, and I anticipate that I will do so again in the near future, once we get past the emotionally-charged rhetoric and to the real, underlying issues, which can't happen until we start trying to understand each other's points of view instead of calling each other names, which we saw a lot of today.
Thanks for your thoughtful responses to my questions.
Tao you're in the Bay? Love that city, I've got TONS of family in the area, I used to work over in the Presidio...Lived right at the north end of Columbus... Man that was a fun city to live in... wish I could get a job there again...
As for contacting your officials, well you live in the bay, politics are a serious business, there, that's where my father got his start. I would guess, they were more than cordial, and genuinely interested in what you had to say? In LA, it's a lot more difficult to get past the casual "uh-huh, I'll let him/her know, bye..." and if you get pushy they get very annoyed. I was actually kicked out of a Bar on the West-side for talking about politics... In the Bay, people were more than ready to have a casual debate about politics that could get heated, but never out of control... there was a real sense of people being allowed to have their own opinions there...
And when you contacted your reps, when it was all said and done did you feel you had been heard, or did you feel you were given a form letter, a pattern response?
You might guess, I felt the form letter type. Not real answers, just blurbs that sounded like they meant something, but really just danced around the entire point of my original issue.
cheers.
I lived in SF for quite some time (I actually went to law school with one of Pelosi's kids), but I have been in Redwood City for the last 10 years.
As to how my reps responded, they didn't. Where you seem to be "right" of center, I'm probably viewed as "left" of center because I've been a registered Democrat for about 20 years (started out registered Republican in my youth, though; I seem to like to swim against the tide). Accordingly, they assume they will get my vote and feel no need to respond. Bad assumption because I vote issues, not parties.
Life's a bitch. :-) I guess "liberal" legislators only care enough to respond to people who seem to be republican/conservative. You've gotten a lot further than I have . . .
By the way, what does "D.O.D" stand for? Day of Defeat? Department of Defense? What?
I struck on "Tao Jonesing" because I thought the idea of a Taoist being anxious over his next drug fix was delicious irony, particularly with the allusion to the stock market ("Tao" is pronounced "Dow"). I've been spending WAY too much time studying economics, philosophy and religion at the same time . . .
No, that is populism, not democracy. It's the downfall of California, every citizen deciding legislation and spending through the proposition system. You elect your politicians and they do the job without having to explain every minute detail to every single moron out there. If you don't like it, you don't re-elect them. But just like in a regular business, you can't have every Joe blow deciding the course of action ad nauseum. Grow up and practice what you preach. Do you think Bush consulted the american people with most of his actions? Including his trillion dollar Medicare overall?
I can be sure that whatever reform goes through will be better for the overwhemling majority of americans (sans health insurance CEO's) than the status quo.
It may not be perfect, but disallowing the Health Ins Co's from price gouging and rejecting claims (after you have paid them for years) because you got cancer and you are too expensive for them sounds like a great alternative.
All the fearmongering in place currently is there because something that is going on is good for people, and not a major industry. When you hear the republicans go out and scream nonsense that they do, its obvious whatever is being done is better than what they would have (which is nothing over the course of numerous administrations)
you are a partisan hack, and to assert that there is any difference between repbulocrats and demicans is all the proof I need.
You live off of unemployment and you're whining about the governmnent. That is the height of hypocrisy.
I know that the government usually doesn't have my best interests at heart. I also know that corporations NEVER have my best interests at heart so anything that takes power away from corporations is fine by me.