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Co-Founder Of Reaganomics, Paul Craig Roberts, "There Is Probably More Democracy In China Than There Is In The West"

Tyler Durden's picture


Paul Craig Roberts: "The west prides itself that it is the standard for
the world, that it is a democracy. But nowehere do you see democratic
outcomes: not in Greece, not in Ireland, not in the UK, not here, the
outcomes are always to punish the innocent and reward the guilty. And
that's what the Greeks are in the streets, protesting. We see this all
over the west. There is no democracy, there are oligarchies, some of
these smaller European countries are not even run by their own
governments, they are run by Wall Street... There is probably more
democracy in China than there is in the west. Revolution is the only
answer... We are confronted with a curious situation. Throughout the
west we think we have democracy, we hold ourselves up high, we demonize
China, we talk about the mafia state of Russia, we talk about the Arabs
and so on, but where is the democracy here?"

Part 1

Part 2


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Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:42 | 1303672 Ricky Bobby
Ricky Bobby's picture

See the story where a federal judge reled that the TSA was to perform the screening of a Sante Fe Highschool prom.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:51 | 1303685 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

you didn't read the details.  The judge was incensed that the school was doing such a thing.  He demanded that they have proper training and supervision via an organization such as the TSA.  This was really a way to end the groping by giving the school an impossible hurdle to overcome. 

There is no way congress can change the law so quickly as to allow TSA to perfrom gropings at a High School!

This ruling was to throw sand in the gears and stop the schools from groping kids.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 21:00 | 1303729 Raymond K Hessel
Raymond K Hessel's picture

WTF?  So it's okay to treat people like criminals so long as the cop has training? 


Are you fucking retarded?

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 21:27 | 1303733 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture


Mon, 05/23/2011 - 21:23 | 1303793 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

No you miss the point.


It is impossible to get the TSA to manage training for a high school prom groping contest.  That is not part of their mandate and they have no congressional authorization to train high school teachers in advanced groping techniques.  The judge knew this.  He made the burden so high to fondle the students that it couldn't happen.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:49 | 1303678 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

After Seattle was completely trashed by anarchists it is not surprising that these events now have such security.  I don't condone brutality and vandalism by either side, unless it is for a goal which I approve.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 21:17 | 1303778 serotonindumptruck
serotonindumptruck's picture

Those "anarchists", AKA federal agents, are the ultimate agents provocateurs.

Peaceful demonstration is NOT where the revolution will be fought.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 22:34 | 1303962 BloodPigOnFeces
BloodPigOnFeces's picture


Mon, 05/23/2011 - 22:55 | 1304036 Blanche DuBois
Blanche DuBois's picture

I'm curious, really, where do you think the revolution will be fought if not through so called peaceful demonstration?

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 22:57 | 1304041 Blanche DuBois
Blanche DuBois's picture

I'm curious, really, where do you think the revolution will be fought if not through so called peaceful demonstration?

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 03:33 | 1304341 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Umm, Lexington?  Crispus Attucks (and others) died for your freedom!

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 23:32 | 1304112 Clay Hill
Clay Hill's picture

Right Truck,

Political solutions are moot.

Begin accepting that freedom comes at a high cost, or sit around waiting for your collar, slaves.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 21:16 | 1303784 Crumbles
Crumbles's picture

Our rights are being taken away a little at a time.

Ah, NO - Rummy, Cheney, and Bush the lesser took away a LOT of rights when they replaced the Constitution with the pre-positioned Homeland Security Act.  Obomba is still learning how to use the legislation to fit his own agenda and we will see endless extensions until the people rise up.  Time for a general strike to get a real protest started.  Soon time to hit the streets.

4th of July, anyone?

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:43 | 1303675 clymer
clymer's picture

I don't recall hearing PCR mention that China was favorable to the U.S.A.



Mon, 05/23/2011 - 21:00 | 1303726 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

I believe he claims china has more democracy than the USA.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 06:31 | 1304414 MadeOfQuarks
MadeOfQuarks's picture

The West has TV to pacify them, as soon as China gets some good shows on they can tone down the overt oppression.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 19:35 | 1303436 Hedgetard55
Hedgetard55's picture



     +55 kajillion.


     Now watch your back.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 19:37 | 1303437 kengland
kengland's picture

Cutting taxes and monetizing debt is democratic? There is no difference TD between the jackasses of today relative to those of yesterday. The inference by siting the co founder's credentials is that there is a good side

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 19:40 | 1303441 boeing747
boeing747's picture

So here, how much democracy you have depends on how much money you have?

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 19:52 | 1303497 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Bingo. Another winner.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 19:41 | 1303446 tpberg7
tpberg7's picture

Corporate Fascism Bitchez!

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 19:41 | 1303459 zebra
zebra's picture

ZH is always full of good news.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 22:16 | 1303912 MayIMommaDogFac...
MayIMommaDogFace2theBananaPatch's picture

Happy Monday everybody!

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 19:45 | 1303467 zebra
zebra's picture

O-man to Benny:" when you create the money on the F-pad, don't let go of the '0' on your keyboard until i tell you to."


Mon, 05/23/2011 - 19:45 | 1303469 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

The Democracy here in the US works just fine so long as you have (or can raise) a lot of money. The US Supreme Court even said that was the way it is supposed to work. And corporations enjoy the same 14th amendment protections afforded humans. Again exactly as it is supposed to work.

We have all the Democracy that money can buy. I'm not being sarcastic. This is simply how it works.

Ask me if I like it that way? What the Hell do I know? I and my countrymen elected representative government, who then packed the SC with ivory-tower legal loonies, who then gave away the Republic to bankers and lobbyists, so I guess that's what was supposed to happen. Because I don't recall anyone saying our government had been overthrown. Did any of you?

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 19:51 | 1303491 mynhair
mynhair's picture

Beck sez it daily.  The penultimate Doomer.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:42 | 1303669 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture


But he's been marginalized as a loon, right?

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 04:16 | 1304360 Guy Fawkes Mulder
Guy Fawkes Mulder's picture

Beck? Glenn Beck?

Guy's marginalized for being a total sell-out establishment Uncle Tom Judas Goat.

He also is a loon, as far as I can tell.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 19:54 | 1303503 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Actually I think  "We the people" have been overthrown.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 19:56 | 1303518 mynhair
mynhair's picture

That's cuz you ain't 'people'.  You have a bag on.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:11 | 1303563 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

I don't see how we could have been overthrown. We were there at every vote, during every election, every year, all the time. The people oversaw the handover of decision making to lobbyists and corporations at every turn in the road. Never raised a peep. Never took to the streets. Not once never ever evar.

This is what we got because it is what we wanted, as a nation. There are a few individuals who remain horrified at what has happened and will talk to the matter at length, but you almost never meet one of them and they are highly marginalized.

Grab any American on the street and ask them if there is anything wrong with our Democratic system, and they will say no, and then they will turn and accuse you of being a Communist (or these days, a terrorosit) simply for asking.

The corporations are happy with the way things are [snicker] so they are not going to change anything nor will they fund or advertise or broadcast anyone who wishes to change anything. This is it. It's all we have and all we will ever get evar. For ever. There is no way out. There is no solution because there is no recognizable problem that anyone in a position of power will allow to be discussed in public for more than 30 milliseconds.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:19 | 1303609 velobabe
velobabe's picture

i am an indian giver.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 00:28 | 1304177 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

I am an Indian.



Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:47 | 1303680 Holodomor2012
Holodomor2012's picture

Media manufactures consent.  Those who screamed the loudest trying to stop this trainwreck were labeled every pejorative in the book.  Thus the sheep marched away from the "We the people" and towards "Them who cannot be named". 

But you can hardly blame them.  The media is that powerful.  And when you couple it with a curriculum designed to stupify, well, we're in deep shit now.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 22:51 | 1304028 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Glad to see you got my point, but you've always been pretty sharp there, Coug. Watch your 6.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 01:28 | 1304246 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

I didn't junk you, but I think this is an obviously false claim. Nobody raised a peep? You haven't been paying attention. I've been in the streets and I wasn't alone.

We haven't been overthrown, we've been gutted. But it will end. Nothing lasts forever.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 03:38 | 1304342 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

"They" have a plan:

BTW, the "Rapture" has been re-scheduled for October, so we got that going for us! :>D

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:32 | 1303641 Raymond K Hessel
Raymond K Hessel's picture

Cougar, you should include unions along with corporations or risk being outted as a left-wing douche.

Big Business.

Big Government.

Big Green.

Big Agri.

Big Unions.


They are all eating at the trough.


I junk you.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 22:53 | 1304038 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Big Pharma and Big Oil may be seperate entries also.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:32 | 1303642 Raymond K Hessel
Raymond K Hessel's picture


Mon, 05/23/2011 - 19:44 | 1303475 AldoHux_IV
AldoHux_IV's picture

Does anyone find it ironic that the person who helped develop the biggest ponzi our economy has seen to date (producing 'growth' on leverage) and thus enslaving our society to meaningless debt and therefore helping to kill the democratic process in this country is talking about revolution to help instill our lost democratic ways?

It's like Hitler talking against anti-semitism.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:30 | 1303580 Eternal Student
Eternal Student's picture

+1. You've got it exactly. I'll start taking Roberts seriously on this when I see him actually out in the street  revolting, instead of just talking about it.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 00:04 | 1304164 Ms. Erable
Ms. Erable's picture

Why does he have to be in the streets? He's pretty revolting indoors, too.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:33 | 1303637 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

rich old white guy sees the inevitable outcome of his best laid plans about to hit "home" for the masses, decides to defect in case the pitchfork 'n' rope brigade are makin' lists. . .

no doubt there will be others.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 22:23 | 1303935 Dirt Rat
Dirt Rat's picture

David Stockman, Director of OMB under Reagan, is also a very articulate critic of what's wrong with this economy. I will pay attention to what he says because in William Greider's late 1981 article "The Education of David Stockman," Stockman was quite candid about the huge budget deficits we'd be seeing from there on out. And you know, Stockman was right.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 19:48 | 1303477 Racer
Racer's picture

The UK protested about the war in Iraq, which I think was completely illegal, but went ahead..
Ireland voted a party in to stop the bailout banksters ... hmmm

Finland... voted in no to bailouts... hmmmmm

Prosecutions for banksters 0,
prosecutions for people infinite and drop a tiny piece of litter... instant fine.. and for failing to fill in some forms you can be sent to prison,

taxation for big corporations as little as they can make new laws for,
taxes for pensioners and the poor as much as they can squeeze till they suck the bodies dry

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 19:45 | 1303478 THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

There was more then a hint of Beijing in Dublin today (without the discipline or apparent order)

But don't be fooled ,We do Propaganda much much better then eastern block or eastern countries because most of the Irish believe it.

Isn't life wonderful. 

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 19:45 | 1303479 IdioTsincracY
IdioTsincracY's picture

How can we repay for the wonders of Reaganomics?!

Oh yeah:  FUCK YOU!!

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 19:49 | 1303500 mynhair
mynhair's picture

Sure, Obamanation is such a roaring success.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 19:55 | 1303522 IdioTsincracY
IdioTsincracY's picture

What the hell does that have to do with what I said?

The middle class is being destroyed under the pretense of the 'trickle down' bullshit.

Instead we have had the opposite ... wealth has being raped from the middle class to the top 10%.


Get a clue!!

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:10 | 1303571 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

so everyone in the top ten percent has just stolen money from the middle class?  No one has invented something useful, built a business that employs a lot of people and provides services that people wish to pay for?

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:09 | 1303576 mynhair
mynhair's picture

Note to self:  quit feeding trolls

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 00:33 | 1304183 OldTrooper
OldTrooper's picture


Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:39 | 1303661 Raymond K Hessel
Raymond K Hessel's picture

I really hate it when people say the middle class when they mean the working class.  The middle class is not in the median.  The middle class is composed of doctors, lawyers, business men.  The middle class is the upper crust but not so wealthy that they can stop working.  They'll retire well before their 60s but they are not "the rich". 


What you think is the middle class is actually the median class, or as I am of that class, I like to call the working class.  We work for other people, we may or may not have a college degree but we definitely will be working for the rest of our lives, unless we're douchebag tax-eating cops or bureaucraps. 


Stop calling the working class the middle class.  We're not middle class.  We're working class.  Cass?  Is that you?  You dirty mother, it is you! 


Mon, 05/23/2011 - 19:54 | 1303523 Pepe
Pepe's picture

correction: you mean O'Bamanation

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 19:50 | 1303489 Crawdaddy
Crawdaddy's picture

PCR nails it with his comments regarding offshoring and reserve currency. Corrupt politicians in collusion with corrupt corporation executives are the root cause of our problems. Their day of reckoning is coming soon but only if we stand up and challenge them face to face. 

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 19:52 | 1303499 Atch Logan
Atch Logan's picture

Right on, bud.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 19:53 | 1303516 nah
nah's picture

france and brittan are sending in attack choppers to save libya.... is this a war against africa in general to support embezzlement for globalist elites and the 'dollar' markets.... is africa to look on western policy the same as the arabs


who thinks up this foreign policy... who benefits from these wars and revolutions... not the USA $4 a gallon gas after 8yrs of oil war later


we are getting screwed by a complete lack of foreign policy backed by our war machine... used only as the last line of American power of coarse... we oppose treason and tryanny where???? LIBYA GET THE FUCK OUT

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 19:58 | 1303525 mynhair
mynhair's picture

Point of order.

We are getting screwed by a moron in the WH, and a bunch of morons in the SINate.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:29 | 1303614 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Don't forget the Ivory Coast.

The French are on the march. Fascist servants of the money changers.

Geez, do they think they are entitled to rape everyone?

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 06:19 | 1304407 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Hey Rodent, I know your problem : You auditioned for 'Rambo' role thirty years ago and lost out to Sylvester Stallone. Get over it fella. Life moves on...

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 07:44 | 1304470 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Yeah, they said I was too good looking to be believable.

What does that have to do with Frogs killing Africans for fun and profit?

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 09:08 | 1304635 falak pema
falak pema's picture

You could have fooled me. They pretend they are defending peace n love and the elected leader of the country now re-instated. And of course the contracts of the french multinationals that run the economy there. So...if you have the proof of the pudding of frogs doing it to the locals like that other guy is supposed to have done to the maid woman... just yell! we'll all be in Abidjan to hang those froggy rodents!

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 09:14 | 1304664 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

Yeah, what the heck was that about? The media just ignore it or brush it over as the french and UN install a new dictator in the Ivory Coast. No one is interested in asking why for some reason. It's like the mask is slipping and they just don't care anymore. See the Frank Zappa quote above.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 19:54 | 1303521 user2011
user2011's picture

US has more "demoncracy" than China for sure.    The bankers and lobbyists are over the law openly.    During the foreclosure crisis,  Congress had an emergency session just to sign laws to get the bankers off the hook.

Over here, mainstream media were told not to broadcast the Barhain protests and tone down the coop attempt in the Ecudor.      Chinese government won't tell the media to do it.   They are ban to do so.

In China, corruption is still under the table.   In US, it is open 24/7 in capitol hill, in the form of campaign financing/contributions or book deals.

In China, at least the market is not allowed to be rigged yet.   In US,  CFTC, CME, JPM, GS are serving the same interests of their own....     US has a lot more freedom to rig and manipulate.



Mon, 05/23/2011 - 19:59 | 1303539 vocational tainee
vocational tainee's picture

we are as close to democracy, as we are to heaven...

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:02 | 1303537 ThisIsBob
ThisIsBob's picture

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's  for lunch.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:15 | 1303584 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

It certainly is if you define it that way. And most people happily would define it exactly like that. Not just rich people, most people. Sheep-people even. The sheep are 100% okay with that definition, and will sit out the vote and become dinner and be 100% okay with that.

Go ahead ask them, any of them. They'll be 100% okay with that.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:28 | 1303619 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.

Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:40 | 1303664 Raymond K Hessel
Raymond K Hessel's picture



Democracy is mob rule.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:52 | 1303705 Tuco Benedicto ...
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez's picture

Exactly, we are a "republic" where the rights of the minority are protected. Our founders hated "democracy".  They called it "the tyranny of the majority".


Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 00:59 | 1304217 OldTrooper
OldTrooper's picture

Exactly, too bad we know what usually happens to republics...

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:09 | 1303568 Holodomor2012
Holodomor2012's picture

Cant fight an enemy that cant be named. 

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:17 | 1303588 gall batter
gall batter's picture

i can name that enemy in two seconds.  bankster-controlled government.  

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:21 | 1303605 FB24601
FB24601's picture

Same sheeople, different game (rules).


Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:23 | 1303611 FB24601
FB24601's picture

The bankster classes are second tier elites of the true master. They are to be installed as common enemy against the sheeople and will be dumped upon wtshtf nwo.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:21 | 1303615 velobabe
velobabe's picture

i think this can be, over ruled.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:24 | 1303625 S-hai High
S-hai High's picture

I find it interesting - so much emphasis seems to be placed upon “freedom of speech” in the US, yet the average American is more concerned with ipads, American idol, designer labels and other such stuff…  when was the last time you personally exercised said ‘freedom of speech’ against something of importance?

(the US run a multi-party government, China do not; hence 'voting' is something that obviously cannot occur in China, and not a relevant comparison... just thought i'd pre-empt any response on this kind! )

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:44 | 1303651 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

New export from China: Babies

May 21 2011


Yang Libing always bring the photo of his first born daughter Yang Ling with him through his years of searching for her. She would be 7 years old by now.

10 months after born, Yang Ling was taken away by officials from local one child policy office. The reason was that the family didn’t pay "social raising fee". Yang had never saw his daughter again.

Yang’s father went with them but the officials demanded 6000 yuan to release the girl. Yang’s father only raised 4000 at that moment. On the next day the officials said they won’t release the child even if Yang’s father gave the 10,000 yuan. When Yang came back home from Shenzhen his daughter was already transferred to the city welfare center. Information said for every child sent to the welfare center, an official would receive 1,000 yuan or more. And for every child adopted by a foreign family the welfare center would receive 3,000 US dollar. Before being "sold" aboard, these children would be announced as orphan by local government. This is a legal business.

Yang Ling was not alone. Child taking was phenomenon in Gaoping. Gao ping is a poor rural village located in the mountain area of Hunan province in Southwestern China. Behind this phenomenon were not just economic interest but also political one. One child policy was made a national policy in 1982. To implement it Hunan province linked the implementation of the policy with the local officials’ career like what many other provinces did. If their were people violating the one child policy in the local administrative area, the local administrator would not receive promotion and many other benefits for a year. This way of implementation worked but it got worse and worse. Before 1997 the slogan was the local officials would just "tear down the house" or "take the parent away" if a family had more than one children. 
But after 2000 they would "take your child away". Maybe that’s when the officials discover the business of exporting children.


Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:55 | 1303716 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Don't forget involuntary organ donations from executed prisoners.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 21:03 | 1303745 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

Lol' ....


That can't be true ... Can it ... ?

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 22:13 | 1303898 akak
akak's picture

Not to mention the following heinous torture:

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:40 | 1303656 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.

Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:48 | 1303693 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

 China has the largest prison population in the world. It has 670 prison with around 1.5 million prisoners, including 19,000 juveniles. According to the Chinese Ministry of Justice there are 1.3 million prisoners in prison, which are often referred to as “reform through labor” camps. Another 260,000 are in slightly less harsh “reeducation through labor” prisons. These are regarded as labor camps.

Labor Camps and Prison Labor in China

 The labor camps have traditionally supported themselves and paid the salaries of their worker by selling products like generators and farm tools—and more recently wigs and Christmas lights—made by the prisoners. These day the shabbily-made products don't sell well in the competitive markets and the camps are bringing in less money than they did. As a result the inmates are getting less food and live in worse conditions and are required to work longer hours making labor-intensive products.

 Chinese political prisoners are sometimes forced work for no pay in Chinese factories. According to a report by Human Rights Watch Asia: "Fifty percent of Chinese rubber products come from chemical factories that employ forced labor. One prisoner who was caught trying to stuff a note inside a latex surgical glove was beaten by guards with electric batons."

Black Jails


 In 2008, there was report that citizens in the city of Xintain on Shandong Province who tried to petition the government were locked up in mental hospitals to keep them from airing their complaints about local injustices. Some of the detainees were reportedly drugged.

 Sometimes petitioners are thrown into “black jails,” illegal detention centers, to shut them up or keep them from filing their petitions. One 59-year-old woman, whose nephew was arrested, told the Los Angeles Times she was nabbed and placed in an isolated stockroom and held for days with about 100 others and finally released with her ailing husband and then abducted again and held for several weeks in a dilapidated private home. [Source: John Glionna, Los Angeles Times, January 2010]

 Humans Rights Watch has released a 51-page report on he issue call An Alleyway in Hell: China’s Abusive Black Jails. It cites beatings, rapes, intimidation and extortion that have taken places at them. One victim was quote in the report as saying, at the place he was sent there were “locked steel doors ad windows. We never left our rooms to eat. We were given our meals through a small window space.”

 Attention to the issue was raised in December 2009 when a guard at a black jail was sentenced to eight years in prison for raping a detained college student. Nicholas Bequelin, a senior Asia researcher at Human Rights Watch, told the Los Angeles Times, “As China tries to build a functioning legal system, this gnawing black hole for human rights grows right there.”

 The Communist Party initially denied the jail existed but then acknowledged them in an article in the Outlook, which is owned by the official New China News Agency, saying there were at least 73 black jails in the Beijing area alone and an estimated 10,000 people have been detained in hundred of jails at one time.

 According to the Los Angeles Times and Human Rights Watch the jails reportedly came into existence a few years ago after the government abolished another system that allowed officials to jail petitioners they considered a threat. Under the for-profit system private jail operators receive $22 to $44 a day per person, creating an incentive to keep victims imprisoned for long period.


Mon, 05/23/2011 - 22:35 | 1303967 Libertarian777
Libertarian777's picture

just for some context, although i won't contest the brutality of the prisons in China...


China has a population of 1.3 billion and 1.5million incarcerated. that's a 0.11% incarceration rate.


The USA has 330 million people, and TWO million incarcerated ( or a 0.60% incarceration rate, roughly 6 times greater.


As far as I know China doesn't have prison camps in overseas bases.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:53 | 1303696 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture


If you search this site you’ll find many posts that mention Sun Zhigang. The story terrified me, and seemed to epitomize the dangers of total police powers and the lack of rule of law. A 27-year-old college student and graphic artist, he had the misfortune of leaving his home in Guangzhou without his ID card. He was arrested as a vagrant when a policeman stopped him and asked for the card, and he was brutally beaten to death in the prison infirmary. It was one of the first stories in China to cause a sensation on the Internet, and the wave of public outrage helped convince the government it was time to change their vagrancy laws.

And then I read this story, and it felt like deja vu all over again. From a letter written for his parents:

Zhao Wei is a senior student at Hebei University of Technology. He bought Seat No.45 on Car 12 of Train No. 1301 departing from Tianjin for Zalantun, Innor Mongolia on January 22, 2011. He also had a classmate in Car 11.

According to this classmate of his, after getting onto the train, Zhao Wei was scoffed at and ridiculed by a train attendant because of a seat-changing issue. Zhao made this issue known to the train conductor. At 10 p.m. or so, Wei Zhao brought his backpack to Car 11 and told this classmate that he might have offended the conductor. Then he changed seats with a passenger who sat next to this classmate. At around 3 a.m., Zhao was called away by the conductor. When the classmate next saw Zhao Wei, his eyes were black and blue, and he was no longer alive.

Go to the site to read the entire letter and, if you can stand it, to see graphic photos of the young man’s beaten corpse. The parents are now caught up in a bureaucratic maze of denial and passing the buck. No one will take responsibility, no one will even show any interest in investigating what happened. The story, needless to say, is being scrubbed from the Chinese Internet.

For an extraordinary analysis of how this hideous crime is being censored, you must read this post (be forewarned that it, too, contains graphic photographs). It reads like a suspense story, following the censors as they systematically cause the story to vaporize. Great journalism, great description of how the Chinese media and search engines work in cooperation with the censors.


Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:56 | 1303708 Arkadaba
Arkadaba's picture

He is smart - been reading him for years.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:55 | 1303718 Mercury
Mercury's picture
"There Is Probably More Democracy In China Than There Is In The West"

So what?

Democracy all by itself is morally neutral as 51% of the people can vote to rape the other 49%.  You'd rather live in a monarchy with constitutionally limited government, explicit civil and property rights, personal liberty and enforceable contracts than in a democracy without those things.

Yes we are having a bit of an oligarch problem just now but we are also having a democracy problem as powerful, non-oligarchs (like public sector workers) vote themselves more goodies at others' expense.

Reinforce the primacy of the individual over the state and the rest will take care of itself.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:57 | 1303727 Sathington Willougby
Sathington Willougby's picture

What are property rights?  Isn't that where a bunch of people have more right to property than an individual?  That's how it is in the land of the sheep and home of the slave.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 21:12 | 1303754 Mercury
Mercury's picture

Yeah, you're getting warm.

Here's an example:  Seizing my pension to pay government and/or bank debts should constitute a violation of my property rights in any political system where the individual has even rudimentary, explicit rights against the state.  It should be considered a violation if the financial oligarchs do it and it should be considered a violation even if "we voted on it" and it happens via the mechanics of democracy.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 21:41 | 1303829 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

But what if you were promised a pension by the government.

The government says "I promise you, John, that future unborn children will pay your pension."

How is that fair?  What claim do you have on the income of people who aren't even old enough to vote?

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 21:57 | 1303841 Mercury
Mercury's picture

A promise isn't property. Property comes before promises especially if what's being promised is other peoples' property.

Besides, a government entity can go bankrupt, sell off assets and trim excess to make ends meet just like people and corporations can.   Really.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 21:58 | 1303866 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

ok so if you were promised that other people would be forced to give you money for your pension then you can understand that the other people might legitimately object.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 22:03 | 1303874 Mercury
Mercury's picture

Absolutely, but as I said above, taxing the private sector into oblivion isn't the only option available even if they say it is.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 20:58 | 1303720 Sathington Willougby
Sathington Willougby's picture

I just don't get what good people think a government is.  It's straight criminal feces. 

I wouldn't touch a public office with a ten foot soul crushing government issued pack of burlap brown underwear.  How could you live with yourself knowing your bread is made by pointing a gun at some human livestock that doesn't know any better than bleat for more.

It's my life so stay the fuck out of it and stop trying to fuck it up, institutional flaming asshole.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 21:04 | 1303739 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

I aint askin nobody for nothing

that I can't get on my own.

If you don't like the way I'm living

you can  leave this long haired country boy alone.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 21:11 | 1303752 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

Country Roads, take me home
To the place I belong
West Virginia, mountain momma
Take me home, country roads

All my memories gathered round her
Miners lady, stranger to blue water
Dark and dusty, painted on the sky
Misty taste of moonshine
Teardrops in my eye


John Denver - Country Roads

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 21:11 | 1303761 ??
??'s picture

and you saw what happend to him

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 22:22 | 1303920 akak
akak's picture

And for another of Spalding's favorite singers:

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 22:58 | 1304044 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

If you are as bored with porn as I am then this makes a nice diversion. It is funny in a campy way.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 01:47 | 1304262 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

This song is a perfect metaphor for most of your posts as well as Spalding Smailes. It says nothing of meaning, has no point, and is little more than a mindless and idiotic distraction from reality. And it's lip-synced to someone else's voice. Poorly.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 06:30 | 1304415 falak pema
falak pema's picture

lol, you don't pull your punches lady!

Wed, 05/25/2011 - 00:19 | 1307916 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

Bitches, Bitchez! :-)

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 21:04 | 1303737 grunk
grunk's picture

TPTB are so scared at this point that they will do anything to hide their corruption.|newswell|text|Local|s

It's a race between the revolution and the police state. The loser gets hung upside down at the gas station.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 23:19 | 1304077 serotonindumptruck
serotonindumptruck's picture

"TPTB are so scared at this point that they will do anything to hide their corruption."

Very true. Thanks for posting this link.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 01:52 | 1304269 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

good link.  "justice in the u.s. is based on who you are not on what you do".  

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 21:12 | 1303766 Problem Is
Problem Is's picture

Mad Max Keiser... +5
You won't hear this state side...

Just Cramer the Clown, Clueless Steve Lies-man and the CNBC Anchorettes...

BTW: Obama Bin Lyin' finish that Irish beer yet?

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 21:25 | 1303798 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

Despite his hyperbole comparing US and China, the point is well taken and received here at ZH. 

The oligarchs are indeed not just seizing power but concentrating wealth.

The trouble is this: it's at the expense of future social mobility which is one of the pillars of an open, democratic capitalist society. Whatever you make you'll spend at the company store. 


Where he didn't go far enough: it's the sign of a sick economic system. Not a vital one. It's late afternoon in Merica


Reaganomics unfortunately accelerated the process by piling on debt, by encouraging outsourcing building up Chimerica and giving big breaks to the wealthy while increasing taxes on the middle class. Since then middle class incomes have dropped steadily in real terms. The industrial base has been squandered. And China was given a gift that keeps on giving

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 21:42 | 1303827 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

And this is probably something we can all agree on.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 21:43 | 1303833 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

Yup ...


Securitization went into overdrive ...

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 23:56 | 1304155 gwar5
gwar5's picture

Maybe not so cut and dried...

Carter's top tax rate was 70% and the top earners only paid 19% of total tax revenue at the time. After Reagan dropped tax rates for everybody the same top earners paid 40% of total revenue. Debt as % of GDP was less under Reagan as the economy was allowed to grew.

To prevent labor outsourcing, we should cut corporate rates in the USA, ours are the highest in the world and only serve only as a barrier to foreign companies from moving here. GE doesn't even pay taxes.

Massive cutting of government spending is the only way out voluntariy or austerity by decree with granny told to  take the blue pill to just go away.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 02:11 | 1304288 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

i take it you mean u.s. government debt as a % of gdp.  it grew fast under reagan  (as did debt generally, for many reasons, some good some not). 

while statutory rates are high, corporate taxes as a percentage of gdp in the u.s. are far from the highest in the world  

the u.s. is generally a low tax country versus other advanced nations:  

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 21:39 | 1303828 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

Link • Amazing Pictures, Pollution in China | ChinaHush


Jiangsu province Changshu City Fluorine Chemical industry land sewage treatment plant (?????????????????) was responsible for collection and processing of the industrial sewage. However they did not, the sewage pipe was extended 1500 meters under the Yangtze River and releasing the sewage there. 2009 June 11

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 21:48 | 1303845 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

One word:  Eww

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 21:55 | 1303863 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

My friend just returned from China on a two week tour stint. I'll be short because I'm tired.

  • He never saw so many Bentley's driving around towns.
  • All China cars are larger than here in the states. GM, BMW, and Ford brands, just to name a few.
  • China people are very unhappy with the United States Administration.
  • Chinese people don't want to own the US. They're aware of our spending problem.
  • When a new US Senate/House/Congress orgy hits the US propaganda paper's, they write about (US Administration) children misbehaving in their crib.

Much more, however its bedtime for me. Night.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 22:22 | 1303934 illyia
illyia's picture

Too bad you were not the first poster. Might have changed the discussion - for the better.


Mon, 05/23/2011 - 23:39 | 1304131 gwar5
gwar5's picture

China is great. I still think they owe Milton Friedman a statue somewhere prominent. He advised them on creating free market economies and they listened. Hong Kong is rated the most free wheeling (prospserous) free market environment on the planet. It works.

The Chinese won me over again when the economics students literally laughed Geithner off the stage at the University of Beijing, Spring 2009, when he delivered Obama's economic plan to them. Laughing, they repeatedly shouted and jeered at him, "Yeah right, show us the numbers!" until he scooted off the stage humiliated.

Night Jim Bob.


Mon, 05/23/2011 - 22:03 | 1303876 laosuwan
laosuwan's picture

this op ed ironically coming from the deomcratic bastion know as the islamic republic of iran

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 22:22 | 1303922 iLoveMisesToPieces
iLoveMisesToPieces's picture

Trickle down economics is still bullshit :P

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 22:23 | 1303924 illyia
illyia's picture

Tyler... you know those hoops I had to jump through to join... use the "way-back machine" and you'll find it... just after you left Alpha (and took half the readership with you).

Ahem... Are you using the same hoops today? It's a quality issue...

Just saying...

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 22:36 | 1303945 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

I think we are missing the point.

As Americans we are supposed to hold ourselves to the highest possible standard when it comes to freedom and democracy. At least that is what I was taught just like most of you.

The mere fact that it is possible to even debate the merits of comparisons to China and Russia should send everyone's blood boiling not at those who make the assertion, but those whose  have created the state of affairs that make the assertions viable for discussion.

No we are certainly not China and Russia.

But I would argue that we are something worse when by our behavior we squander and demean our own lofty ideals in the eyes of the rest of the world. Let me assure you, this much we have done and no amount of Hillary and Bama Beans is going to change any of that.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 00:28 | 1304179 Xavier Doe
Xavier Doe's picture

Hear, hear.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 02:35 | 1304307 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

As much as I respect your views, WB7, you used the inclusive "we" five times in your post, but is there really a "we" to speak of in this country?  I didn't approve of both wars in Iraq, or Afghanistan, or the Patriot Act, or Das Fatherland Security, or the invasion of Libya, so I suppose I am not a part of this "we." I disagree with those folks saying China is worse, or Russia is worse, or whatever, because I think, like you, that the measuring stick should be a self-comparison. The question is simple: do US actions comport with the ideals taught to children about the ethics and morality of "our" country? I think the obvious answer is that they do not. No amount of yammering by Hillary or Obama makes any difference whatsoever. 

For my part, I reject entirely this idea of national identity and consider myself a citizen of the world, in the tradition of Thomas Paine, arguably the first international citizen of the world. The failures of the West are fundamentally a failure to recognize that indefinite growth is physically impossible, and as I have said before, we are empirically proving this idea to be false. How things play out is anyone's guess, but I am hoping that people can come together in local communities to re-learn all those lessons that got lost while "our leaders" were busy killing other people to secure access to material wealth.

If there is a demon to be found, it seems to me that it is the idea that material wealth can replace and substitute for real human needs that are immaterial. Ultimately we are spiritual beings, and no amount of "stuff" can fill that void.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 06:42 | 1304421 Husk-Erzulie
Husk-Erzulie's picture

+ nice post :-)

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 09:09 | 1304647 falak pema
falak pema's picture

you're making me itch to be material with you...its so trivial it must be real!

Wed, 05/25/2011 - 03:30 | 1308140 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

+1 for cuteness... :-)

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 22:37 | 1303972 Libertarian777
Libertarian777's picture

best context for USA freedoms is from the Matrix

Morpheus: "a prison you cannot see, nor taste nor touch. A prison, for your mind"

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 22:50 | 1304024 Ponzi Unit
Ponzi Unit's picture

China vs US is a silly distraction. We tolerate, mostly out of political correctness, pasivity and ignorance, a neo-feudal elite who have hijacked the government and turned it into a terror weapon aginst its target: the American people.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 22:51 | 1304032 Ponzi Unit
Ponzi Unit's picture

China vs US is a silly distraction. We tolerate, mostly out of political correctness, passivity and ignorance, a neo-feudal elite who have hijacked the government and turned it into a terror weapon aginst its target: the American people. Soma and Newspeak for everyone!

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 23:03 | 1304049 Ponzi Unit
Ponzi Unit's picture

China vs US is a silly distraction. We tolerate, mostly out of political correctness, passivity and ignorance, a neo-feudal elite who have hijacked the government and turned it into a terror weapon aginst its target: the American people. Soma and Newspeak for everyone!

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 23:05 | 1304060 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

Unconfirmed: Bin Laden Mission Aborted, American Deaths from Helicopter Crash

another bizaar story coming out of pakistan about this supposed bin laden murder. american soldiers were either killed when their aircraft received hostile fire from someone on ground, which caused the helicopter to crash and as many as 12 men were killed......

now who were they? the man said they spoke urdu. did they send in some chumps to play this game about getting bin laden, and did they intentionally fire on the helicopter and kill all of the witnesses to this charade, kind of like what they did do a tillman again?

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 23:19 | 1304084 gwar5
gwar5's picture

Exactly -- couldn't agree more.

There are no democratic outcomes anymore, only centrally planned oligarch outcomes in the West.  We have had our sovereign rights to self-determination stolen by bankers playing 3 card monty with our debt. 

As the debts pile higher and higher there is no shortage of money to build up a massive police state to take away our property and rights. 


Mon, 05/23/2011 - 23:37 | 1304127 Goldennutz
Goldennutz's picture


Mon, 05/23/2011 - 23:52 | 1304150 aerial view
aerial view's picture

If PCR means more corruption by the financial system in the U.S. and less punishment than in China, then I totally agree. This country is suppose to stand for fairness and rule of law equally applied to all.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 23:52 | 1304151 Tunga
Tunga's picture

It's a Republic stupid.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 23:59 | 1304160 sportivny
sportivny's picture

Shows that party affiliation matters little as long as the person is honest and doesn't have hidden agenda

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 00:29 | 1304182 ivana
ivana's picture

Unfortunatelly yes. I was saying that whole this epic scam is PRIMARILY MAJOR DEMOCRACY CRISIS or more precise: PUBLIC MANAGEMENT CRISIS.

Clearly visible in Spain these days and USA with new parties/leaders rising. Old corrupt 2party establishment will under all costs try to manipulate, spin, etc new forces and some major "false prophets " will appear to test public pulse. Like Trump did.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 00:48 | 1304208 Aeternus
Aeternus's picture

Anyone else notice the boxes of Mountain House freeze dried food in the background?

Ex-Assistant Treasury under Reagan is a full on doom tard!



Tue, 05/24/2011 - 01:52 | 1304273 silberblick
silberblick's picture

Cornel West calls out Obama as being a part of the oligarchy and challenges Americans to rise up like people in Europe and the Middle East are doing (just like Max has been calling for). Read here:

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 02:15 | 1304291 Fiat Money
Fiat Money's picture

col.west is a TOOL of the Likudnik war lobby (look at his congressional office chief of staff) and - financed in is elections campaigns BY THOSE WAR LOBBY DONORS - wants to spend VASTLY MORE MONEY on the likud instigated "U.S." wars overseas.     What is Mr. West doing for Black constituents in Florida?  (who've been hit by the economic crisis far worse than the wealthy voters in wealthy beach communities he represents.)

  In the 2010 elections,  FL District 22 voters had a choice between a PRETEND "Liberal Democrat" "PRO-WARS, PRO WALL St, NO-OVERSIGHT  BAILOUTS" Neo-Con war lobby incumbent (ron klein), and a full-on PRO-WARS, PRO-BAILOUTS  Neo-Con warmongering crazy 'Republican' in Allen West.  

 It was Ron Klein's neo-con SABOTAGE of genuine a "Change" agenda (that won him the election in 2006 over long-term Repub incumbent Clay Shaw, i.e. so called "liberal" Klein gave voters MORE of those despised pro-wars, pro-wars Republican policies after 2006 that swept him into office as a 'change' candidate in 2006) -  that gave Allen West the opening to win in 2010. 

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:13 | 1304836 Fiat Money
Fiat Money's picture

sorry 'bout that, silberblik!       I thought you meant "Colonel" West, when you correctly wrote "Cornel West" - a totally different guy!

 I apologize, it was past midnight, I must have been getting fuzzy thinkin'!  

  never-the-less, my rant is an excellent case of the  "war lobby + treasury looters + financial wreckers" Neo-Cons OWNING BOTH SIDES of so many elections in America: corporatist, pro-war, pro-bailouts "Democrats" vs Republican candidates who TALK "budget cutting" but offer NOTHING for  OVERSIGHT of the financial markets where all the crushing debt, losses, & deficits are being rung up!

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:16 | 1304837 Fiat Money
Fiat Money's picture

sorry 'bout that, silberblik!       I thought you meant "Colonel" West, when you correctly wrote "Cornel West" - a totally different guy!

 I apologize, it was past midnight, I must have been getting fuzzy thinkin'!  

  never-the-less, my rant is an excellent case of the  "war lobby + treasury looters + financial wreckers" Neo-Cons OWNING BOTH SIDES of so many elections in America: corporatist, pro-war, pro-bailouts "Democrats" vs Republican candidates who TALK "budget cutting" but offer NOTHING for  OVERSIGHT of the financial markets where all the crushing debt, losses, & deficits are being rung up!

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 02:03 | 1304276 Fiat Money
Fiat Money's picture

PCR is absolutely correct (and has been preaching thus for years now) - with the Senate "Democrats" bending over backwards to,

#1. approve of each & every war-lobby atrocity the Netanyhu Likudniks can ram down America's throats  and,

#2.  the  "Democrat" House & Senate 'leadership' GOING AWOL at expressing an ENERGETIC DEFENSE of the basic American SOCIAL CONTRACT   

House GOP Proposes Budget Cuts To Domestic, Foreign Food Aid 

  (much less, heavens forbid, DEMANDING AUDITS of all our looted "bailouts" trillions,  much less taking a look at Golddamn's High Frequency trading, & Berankster's High Frequency printing presses) 

  ...America is now under ONE PARTY RULE, the late "Democrat" Party has been HOSTILE LBO'd by the GS war lobby loot, pillage, rape, & plunder  radical right-wing wrecking crew...

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 02:47 | 1304317 HankPaulson
HankPaulson's picture

Sad, but true.

The best thing about this story is that it's told by a decent person.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 03:15 | 1304332 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture



Quit bleating and being shorn before you are taken to slaughter you sheep.



Tue, 05/24/2011 - 04:14 | 1304358 michigan independant
michigan independant's picture

60 bloggers disappeared in China, Roberts can be 61 IMO with BS like that.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 05:22 | 1304387 southsea13
southsea13's picture

A lot of talk about the `lazy` Greeks owing money, but have a look at this chart:

Statistics don`t cover the entire picture, but it`s interesting how the queen and then Obama have been visiting Ireland in such a short space of time. All I`m saying is that given the amount of debt (form the NYTimes chart), that Ireland owes, it seems to be getting a lot of slack cut by the other EU members. Yes, Ireland is close to the UK and they`ve got dissident republicans to keep under control (so demonising the country won`t help anyone, especially with the banksters of Canary Wharf being in relatively close proximity). It just seems that Greece is being made an example of. 


Tue, 05/24/2011 - 08:08 | 1304499 Monedas
Monedas's picture

I have more admiration for Timothy McVeigh than for Barack, Bill and Hillary or Janet Reno ! Monedas 2011 Is it legal to even say that ?

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 16:45 | 1304519 Monedas
Monedas's picture

I have more admiration for Timothy McVeigh than for those fat assed NASA nerds that ran the stupid Space Shuttle fiasco and for the Euronerds who ran the Concorde crack up ! Monedas 2011 Did Obama find a West African AIDS terrorist slut in his bathroom at Buckingham Palace ? Oops, that must be Michele ! My bad !

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