Co-Founder Of Reaganomics, Paul Craig Roberts, "There Is Probably More Democracy In China Than There Is In The West"

Tyler Durden's picture

Paul Craig Roberts: "The west prides itself that it is the standard for
the world, that it is a democracy. But nowehere do you see democratic
outcomes: not in Greece, not in Ireland, not in the UK, not here, the
outcomes are always to punish the innocent and reward the guilty. And
that's what the Greeks are in the streets, protesting. We see this all
over the west. There is no democracy, there are oligarchies, some of
these smaller European countries are not even run by their own
governments, they are run by Wall Street... There is probably more
democracy in China than there is in the west. Revolution is the only
answer... We are confronted with a curious situation. Throughout the
west we think we have democracy, we hold ourselves up high, we demonize
China, we talk about the mafia state of Russia, we talk about the Arabs
and so on, but where is the democracy here?"

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IdioTsincracY's picture

What the hell does that have to do with what I said?

The middle class is being destroyed under the pretense of the 'trickle down' bullshit.

Instead we have had the opposite ... wealth has being raped from the middle class to the top 10%.


Get a clue!!

topcallingtroll's picture

so everyone in the top ten percent has just stolen money from the middle class?  No one has invented something useful, built a business that employs a lot of people and provides services that people wish to pay for?

mynhair's picture

Note to self:  quit feeding trolls

Raymond K Hessel's picture

I really hate it when people say the middle class when they mean the working class.  The middle class is not in the median.  The middle class is composed of doctors, lawyers, business men.  The middle class is the upper crust but not so wealthy that they can stop working.  They'll retire well before their 60s but they are not "the rich". 


What you think is the middle class is actually the median class, or as I am of that class, I like to call the working class.  We work for other people, we may or may not have a college degree but we definitely will be working for the rest of our lives, unless we're douchebag tax-eating cops or bureaucraps. 


Stop calling the working class the middle class.  We're not middle class.  We're working class.  Cass?  Is that you?  You dirty mother, it is you! 


Pepe's picture

correction: you mean O'Bamanation

Crawdaddy's picture

PCR nails it with his comments regarding offshoring and reserve currency. Corrupt politicians in collusion with corrupt corporation executives are the root cause of our problems. Their day of reckoning is coming soon but only if we stand up and challenge them face to face. 

nah's picture

france and brittan are sending in attack choppers to save libya.... is this a war against africa in general to support embezzlement for globalist elites and the 'dollar' markets.... is africa to look on western policy the same as the arabs


who thinks up this foreign policy... who benefits from these wars and revolutions... not the USA $4 a gallon gas after 8yrs of oil war later


we are getting screwed by a complete lack of foreign policy backed by our war machine... used only as the last line of American power of coarse... we oppose treason and tryanny where???? LIBYA GET THE FUCK OUT

mynhair's picture

Point of order.

We are getting screwed by a moron in the WH, and a bunch of morons in the SINate.

Rodent Freikorps's picture

Don't forget the Ivory Coast.

The French are on the march. Fascist servants of the money changers.

Geez, do they think they are entitled to rape everyone?

falak pema's picture

Hey Rodent, I know your problem : You auditioned for 'Rambo' role thirty years ago and lost out to Sylvester Stallone. Get over it fella. Life moves on...

Rodent Freikorps's picture

Yeah, they said I was too good looking to be believable.

What does that have to do with Frogs killing Africans for fun and profit?

falak pema's picture

You could have fooled me. They pretend they are defending peace n love and the elected leader of the country now re-instated. And of course the contracts of the french multinationals that run the economy there. So...if you have the proof of the pudding of frogs doing it to the locals like that other guy is supposed to have done to the maid woman... just yell! we'll all be in Abidjan to hang those froggy rodents!

tarsubil's picture

Yeah, what the heck was that about? The media just ignore it or brush it over as the french and UN install a new dictator in the Ivory Coast. No one is interested in asking why for some reason. It's like the mask is slipping and they just don't care anymore. See the Frank Zappa quote above.

user2011's picture

US has more "demoncracy" than China for sure.    The bankers and lobbyists are over the law openly.    During the foreclosure crisis,  Congress had an emergency session just to sign laws to get the bankers off the hook.

Over here, mainstream media were told not to broadcast the Barhain protests and tone down the coop attempt in the Ecudor.      Chinese government won't tell the media to do it.   They are ban to do so.

In China, corruption is still under the table.   In US, it is open 24/7 in capitol hill, in the form of campaign financing/contributions or book deals.

In China, at least the market is not allowed to be rigged yet.   In US,  CFTC, CME, JPM, GS are serving the same interests of their own....     US has a lot more freedom to rig and manipulate.



vocational tainee's picture

we are as close to democracy, as we are to heaven...

ThisIsBob's picture

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's  for lunch.

cougar_w's picture

It certainly is if you define it that way. And most people happily would define it exactly like that. Not just rich people, most people. Sheep-people even. The sheep are 100% okay with that definition, and will sit out the vote and become dinner and be 100% okay with that.

Go ahead ask them, any of them. They'll be 100% okay with that.

Rodent Freikorps's picture

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.

Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)

Raymond K Hessel's picture



Democracy is mob rule.

Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez's picture

Exactly, we are a "republic" where the rights of the minority are protected. Our founders hated "democracy".  They called it "the tyranny of the majority".


Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez

Holodomor2012's picture

Cant fight an enemy that cant be named. 

gall batter's picture

i can name that enemy in two seconds.  bankster-controlled government.  

FB24601's picture

Same sheeople, different game (rules).


FB24601's picture

The bankster classes are second tier elites of the true master. They are to be installed as common enemy against the sheeople and will be dumped upon wtshtf nwo.

velobabe's picture

i think this can be, over ruled.

S-hai High's picture

I find it interesting - so much emphasis seems to be placed upon “freedom of speech” in the US, yet the average American is more concerned with ipads, American idol, designer labels and other such stuff…  when was the last time you personally exercised said ‘freedom of speech’ against something of importance?

(the US run a multi-party government, China do not; hence 'voting' is something that obviously cannot occur in China, and not a relevant comparison... just thought i'd pre-empt any response on this kind! )

Spalding_Smailes's picture

New export from China: Babies

May 21 2011


Yang Libing always bring the photo of his first born daughter Yang Ling with him through his years of searching for her. She would be 7 years old by now.

10 months after born, Yang Ling was taken away by officials from local one child policy office. The reason was that the family didn’t pay "social raising fee". Yang had never saw his daughter again.

Yang’s father went with them but the officials demanded 6000 yuan to release the girl. Yang’s father only raised 4000 at that moment. On the next day the officials said they won’t release the child even if Yang’s father gave the 10,000 yuan. When Yang came back home from Shenzhen his daughter was already transferred to the city welfare center. Information said for every child sent to the welfare center, an official would receive 1,000 yuan or more. And for every child adopted by a foreign family the welfare center would receive 3,000 US dollar. Before being "sold" aboard, these children would be announced as orphan by local government. This is a legal business.

Yang Ling was not alone. Child taking was phenomenon in Gaoping. Gao ping is a poor rural village located in the mountain area of Hunan province in Southwestern China. Behind this phenomenon were not just economic interest but also political one. One child policy was made a national policy in 1982. To implement it Hunan province linked the implementation of the policy with the local officials’ career like what many other provinces did. If their were people violating the one child policy in the local administrative area, the local administrator would not receive promotion and many other benefits for a year. This way of implementation worked but it got worse and worse. Before 1997 the slogan was the local officials would just "tear down the house" or "take the parent away" if a family had more than one children. 
But after 2000 they would "take your child away". Maybe that’s when the officials discover the business of exporting children.


topcallingtroll's picture

Don't forget involuntary organ donations from executed prisoners.

Spalding_Smailes's picture

Lol' ....


That can't be true ... Can it ... ?

Rodent Freikorps's picture

Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.

Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)

Spalding_Smailes's picture

 China has the largest prison population in the world. It has 670 prison with around 1.5 million prisoners, including 19,000 juveniles. According to the Chinese Ministry of Justice there are 1.3 million prisoners in prison, which are often referred to as “reform through labor” camps. Another 260,000 are in slightly less harsh “reeducation through labor” prisons. These are regarded as labor camps.

Labor Camps and Prison Labor in China

 The labor camps have traditionally supported themselves and paid the salaries of their worker by selling products like generators and farm tools—and more recently wigs and Christmas lights—made by the prisoners. These day the shabbily-made products don't sell well in the competitive markets and the camps are bringing in less money than they did. As a result the inmates are getting less food and live in worse conditions and are required to work longer hours making labor-intensive products.

 Chinese political prisoners are sometimes forced work for no pay in Chinese factories. According to a report by Human Rights Watch Asia: "Fifty percent of Chinese rubber products come from chemical factories that employ forced labor. One prisoner who was caught trying to stuff a note inside a latex surgical glove was beaten by guards with electric batons."

Black Jails


 In 2008, there was report that citizens in the city of Xintain on Shandong Province who tried to petition the government were locked up in mental hospitals to keep them from airing their complaints about local injustices. Some of the detainees were reportedly drugged.

 Sometimes petitioners are thrown into “black jails,” illegal detention centers, to shut them up or keep them from filing their petitions. One 59-year-old woman, whose nephew was arrested, told the Los Angeles Times she was nabbed and placed in an isolated stockroom and held for days with about 100 others and finally released with her ailing husband and then abducted again and held for several weeks in a dilapidated private home. [Source: John Glionna, Los Angeles Times, January 2010]

 Humans Rights Watch has released a 51-page report on he issue call An Alleyway in Hell: China’s Abusive Black Jails. It cites beatings, rapes, intimidation and extortion that have taken places at them. One victim was quote in the report as saying, at the place he was sent there were “locked steel doors ad windows. We never left our rooms to eat. We were given our meals through a small window space.”

 Attention to the issue was raised in December 2009 when a guard at a black jail was sentenced to eight years in prison for raping a detained college student. Nicholas Bequelin, a senior Asia researcher at Human Rights Watch, told the Los Angeles Times, “As China tries to build a functioning legal system, this gnawing black hole for human rights grows right there.”

 The Communist Party initially denied the jail existed but then acknowledged them in an article in the Outlook, which is owned by the official New China News Agency, saying there were at least 73 black jails in the Beijing area alone and an estimated 10,000 people have been detained in hundred of jails at one time.

 According to the Los Angeles Times and Human Rights Watch the jails reportedly came into existence a few years ago after the government abolished another system that allowed officials to jail petitioners they considered a threat. Under the for-profit system private jail operators receive $22 to $44 a day per person, creating an incentive to keep victims imprisoned for long period.


Libertarian777's picture

just for some context, although i won't contest the brutality of the prisons in China...


China has a population of 1.3 billion and 1.5million incarcerated. that's a 0.11% incarceration rate.


The USA has 330 million people, and TWO million incarcerated ( or a 0.60% incarceration rate, roughly 6 times greater.


As far as I know China doesn't have prison camps in overseas bases.

Spalding_Smailes's picture


If you search this site you’ll find many posts that mention Sun Zhigang. The story terrified me, and seemed to epitomize the dangers of total police powers and the lack of rule of law. A 27-year-old college student and graphic artist, he had the misfortune of leaving his home in Guangzhou without his ID card. He was arrested as a vagrant when a policeman stopped him and asked for the card, and he was brutally beaten to death in the prison infirmary. It was one of the first stories in China to cause a sensation on the Internet, and the wave of public outrage helped convince the government it was time to change their vagrancy laws.

And then I read this story, and it felt like deja vu all over again. From a letter written for his parents:

Zhao Wei is a senior student at Hebei University of Technology. He bought Seat No.45 on Car 12 of Train No. 1301 departing from Tianjin for Zalantun, Innor Mongolia on January 22, 2011. He also had a classmate in Car 11.

According to this classmate of his, after getting onto the train, Zhao Wei was scoffed at and ridiculed by a train attendant because of a seat-changing issue. Zhao made this issue known to the train conductor. At 10 p.m. or so, Wei Zhao brought his backpack to Car 11 and told this classmate that he might have offended the conductor. Then he changed seats with a passenger who sat next to this classmate. At around 3 a.m., Zhao was called away by the conductor. When the classmate next saw Zhao Wei, his eyes were black and blue, and he was no longer alive.

Go to the site to read the entire letter and, if you can stand it, to see graphic photos of the young man’s beaten corpse. The parents are now caught up in a bureaucratic maze of denial and passing the buck. No one will take responsibility, no one will even show any interest in investigating what happened. The story, needless to say, is being scrubbed from the Chinese Internet.

For an extraordinary analysis of how this hideous crime is being censored, you must read this post (be forewarned that it, too, contains graphic photographs). It reads like a suspense story, following the censors as they systematically cause the story to vaporize. Great journalism, great description of how the Chinese media and search engines work in cooperation with the censors.


Arkadaba's picture

He is smart - been reading him for years.

Mercury's picture
"There Is Probably More Democracy In China Than There Is In The West"

So what?

Democracy all by itself is morally neutral as 51% of the people can vote to rape the other 49%.  You'd rather live in a monarchy with constitutionally limited government, explicit civil and property rights, personal liberty and enforceable contracts than in a democracy without those things.

Yes we are having a bit of an oligarch problem just now but we are also having a democracy problem as powerful, non-oligarchs (like public sector workers) vote themselves more goodies at others' expense.

Reinforce the primacy of the individual over the state and the rest will take care of itself.

Sathington Willougby's picture

What are property rights?  Isn't that where a bunch of people have more right to property than an individual?  That's how it is in the land of the sheep and home of the slave.

Mercury's picture

Yeah, you're getting warm.

Here's an example:  Seizing my pension to pay government and/or bank debts should constitute a violation of my property rights in any political system where the individual has even rudimentary, explicit rights against the state.  It should be considered a violation if the financial oligarchs do it and it should be considered a violation even if "we voted on it" and it happens via the mechanics of democracy.

topcallingtroll's picture

But what if you were promised a pension by the government.

The government says "I promise you, John, that future unborn children will pay your pension."

How is that fair?  What claim do you have on the income of people who aren't even old enough to vote?

Mercury's picture

A promise isn't property. Property comes before promises especially if what's being promised is other peoples' property.

Besides, a government entity can go bankrupt, sell off assets and trim excess to make ends meet just like people and corporations can.   Really.

topcallingtroll's picture

ok so if you were promised that other people would be forced to give you money for your pension then you can understand that the other people might legitimately object.

Mercury's picture

Absolutely, but as I said above, taxing the private sector into oblivion isn't the only option available even if they say it is.

Sathington Willougby's picture

I just don't get what good people think a government is.  It's straight criminal feces. 

I wouldn't touch a public office with a ten foot soul crushing government issued pack of burlap brown underwear.  How could you live with yourself knowing your bread is made by pointing a gun at some human livestock that doesn't know any better than bleat for more.

It's my life so stay the fuck out of it and stop trying to fuck it up, institutional flaming asshole.

topcallingtroll's picture

I aint askin nobody for nothing

that I can't get on my own.

If you don't like the way I'm living

you can  leave this long haired country boy alone.

Spalding_Smailes's picture

Country Roads, take me home
To the place I belong
West Virginia, mountain momma
Take me home, country roads

All my memories gathered round her
Miners lady, stranger to blue water
Dark and dusty, painted on the sky
Misty taste of moonshine
Teardrops in my eye


John Denver - Country Roads

??'s picture

and you saw what happend to him