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Complete US Debt Talks Update

Tyler Durden's picture





 

A complete summary of what is happening (or not, as the case may be) in the third and final act of the debt talks tragicomedy courtesy of Reuters.

  • President Barack Obama has no scheduled face-to-face meetings with Democratic and Republican leaders in Congress.
  • Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid and Senate Republican leader
    Mitch McConnell are discussing modifications to a plan put forward by
    McConnell that would raise the debt limit and put nearly all the burden
    on Obama to carry it out. The plan could include about $1.5 trillion in
    spending cuts and set up a congressional panel to find further savings.
  • White House budget director Jack Lew tells Sunday talk shows that
    progress being made in debt talks and lawmakers have time to reach a
    deal on substantial deficit reduction ahead of an Aug. 2 deadline when
    the government will be unable to pay all of its bills.
  • Senator
    Dick Durbin, the second ranking Democrat in the Senate, says on NBC's
    "Meet the Press" that a constitutional amendment to balance the budget
    will not pass the Senate, but the Senate will consider such a measure
    next week.
  • Senator Jon Kyl, the second ranking Republican in
    the Senate, tells ABC's "This Week" that "If all else fails...we will
    not be the ones who took the country into default, the United States
    will not default on its debt."
  • Republican Senator Jim DeMint
    says on NBC's "Meet the Press" it is time to "draw a line in the sand"
    because "a day of reckoning is going to come."
  • Republican
    Senator Tom Coburn, who has participated in bipartisan deficit reduction
    talks, tells CBS's "Face the Nation" that he will offer an ambitious
    plan to cut the deficit by $9 trillion over 10 years. He concedes it
    won't pass the Senate. It includes items difficult for Republicans such
    as cuts for defense spending and revenue increases from closing special
    interest tax breaks.
  • The Republican-led House of
    Representatives to vote on Tuesday on a plan calling for immediate
    spending cuts and capping the level of federal spending to a percentage
    of the economy, 18 percent by 2021. The House also is to consider a
    constitutional amendment requiring a balanced federal budget.
  • Lawmakers are under intense pressure from state governors, U.S.
    businesses and U.S. creditors to strike a deal and raise the debt limit.
    Connecticut Governor Dannel Malloy, a Democrat, said on Saturday at a
    National Governors Association meeting in Salt Lake City, "This is a
    dangerous and equally ridiculous situation that's playing itself out."
 


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Sun, 07/17/2011 - 14:48 | Link to Comment Mongo
Mongo's picture

Keynesian solution: Keep repeating "The US cannot default"

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 14:51 | Link to Comment wanklord
wanklord's picture

Americans are a bunch of stupid animals easy to manipulate and subdue.The sooner the US economy collapses the better, so these brutes will finally learn NOT to live beyond their means.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:03 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

These brutes?

My my, such strong language from a wanker.

I assume you are holed up in some fourth world country that is not affected in the least by what the rest of the world does or does not do. Not that I don't wish to see this entire stinking mess cleanse itself as well. But my friend, unless you are indeed living in that fourth world country, you are a brute too. You are just in denial about it.

Et tu Brute?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Et_tu,_Brute%3F

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:19 | Link to Comment SMG
SMG's picture

No the "Illuminated" Oligarchy ruling the US are the brutes Mr. Weishaupt.  They are the ones who involve us in unending wars, undermine our currency, infect our banking institutions , silence any mass media that tries to tell us the truth, trick us with easy credit, corrupt our government, religions, and political system.   You know what is brutish? Torturing and  enslaving people for your own amusement.  Programming and abusing people from when they are really little to break their will and don't question orders when they are adults. Performing unmensionable acts on innocents, all in the name of some fraudulant "magick" religion.  Killing people just because the speak the truth or get in your way.  Those are the real brutes.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:22 | Link to Comment Tuco Benedicto ...
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez's picture

100% correct!

 

"We have met the enemy and he is us!"   POGO

 

Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 17:31 | Link to Comment RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

You stole my line.   And Porkypine would agree.   A full 24 inch size framed and signed copy of the cartoon hangs above my desk.   Porkypine's opening line is "Ah, Pogo, the beauty of the forest primeval gets me in the heart."   At a long distance many things look pristine and beautiful, but up close we can see the grime and the pollution.    Flying over the United States is thrilling, but stopping in to get a close-up of the heart of most American cities reveals the truth.   It is the trash in the streets and the petty crime that infect us as individuals.   All of that to work its way up to the top with the election of those who would trash the economy and steal us into oblivion.   In the end it is we who are signing our own societal death warrant. Sigh.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 18:02 | Link to Comment WmMcK
WmMcK's picture

And up close it will get you in the feet.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 20:22 | Link to Comment RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

It is hard walkin' on this stuff.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 18:46 | Link to Comment Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Never underestimate Americans. We took down the banking cartel once before.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 19:33 | Link to Comment AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

You mean never underestimate the idiocy of Americans? So stupid that they just got rape by the banksters and all they are worried about is gay marriage. Hey gays, marriage is nothing when you don't have any job/money.

 

Sh!t will have to get much worse, before Americans learn the hard way. But Fed is keeping the American Dream lottery with another bubble.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 21:13 | Link to Comment sasebo
sasebo's picture

When was that? Why didn't they stay took down? And who is "we"?

Just wondering.

Mon, 07/18/2011 - 00:30 | Link to Comment Jack Napier
Jack Napier's picture

The founding fathers took them down when they declared independence from the crown. Andrew Jackson took them down when he vetoed renewal of the National Bank's charter. Lincoln took them down when he prevented them from dividing our great nation which would have made their job much easier. In the end they still came back and won in 1913 with the Federal Reserve Act. Took down is really the wrong phrase, rather ran off. They're multigenerational parasites and their name is Rothschild.

If it isn't obvious already this problem is bigger than just the USA. Just because the media is stuck on trivial crap doesn't mean the people are. The peoples' voice is under attack, but thanks to sites like this we will be heard.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:07 | Link to Comment sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture

Yo, people!

This is the only article one need peruse regarding this entire fiasco and political theater of the absurd:

http://www.newdeal20.org/2011/07/11/hawk-nation-a-guide-to-the-catastrophic-debt-ceiling-debate-51211/

(And for any members of the Obama Apology Network who still disbelieve that, like the Clintons, Obama is just another neocon, please refresh your memories on this WaPo article from 1/2009:)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/15/AR2009011504114.html

 

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 18:11 | Link to Comment cossack55
cossack55's picture

I guess its ok to hear from different dimensions.  Which dimension does that moron live in?

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 20:51 | Link to Comment pods
pods's picture

Wow.  That was a piece straight out of lala land.  

I especially liked the header up top:

"A project of the Franklin and Elenore Roosevelt Institute."

Yeah, figured that one out in about 30 seconds of reading.  I wonder if the writer actually believes this tripe to be true and factual?

pods

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:07 | Link to Comment sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture

Yo, people!

This is the only article one need peruse regarding this entire fiasco and political theater of the absurd:

http://www.newdeal20.org/2011/07/11/hawk-nation-a-guide-to-the-catastrophic-debt-ceiling-debate-51211/

(And for any members of the Obama Apology Network who still disbelieve that, like the Clintons, Obama is just another neocon, please refresh your memories on this WaPo article from 1/2009:)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/15/AR2009011504114.html

 

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 21:55 | Link to Comment John_Coltrane
John_Coltrane's picture

The article was unnecessarily complex in describing the roles of government as:

– it provides for the national defense.

– it purchases goods and services from the private economy for a wide range of public purposes, most of them individually quite small-scale in relation to GDP.

– it regulates a wide range of private-sector activity, for safety, health, environmental and other purposes, including financial stability – or so one should hope.

– it administers Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, as well as other pension and health benefit programs.

Instead it should have stated:

The role of government is income transfer.  Who gives up income and who gets it is determined by "experts" who think they "know it all". 

Like bankers, lawyers, and other parasites government serves the role of friction on the real economy.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 14:49 | Link to Comment lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

In other news, the fear mongering has now reached fever pitch... raise the debt ceiling or else, Al-Qaeda will strike America...

http://www.hstoday.us/industry-news/general/single-article/ct-sources-am...

A reduced US credit rating by any of the big three credit rating companies could provoke possible mayhem in financial markets around the planet and vastly escalate borrowing costs for the federal government and businesses, which would have a directly negative impact on public finances and further depress the nation’s overall economy.

“So you can understand why Al Qaeda, or any other terrorist organization motivated by the jihadist ideology, would see that America is highly vulnerable right now – perhaps more than it’s ever been - to an attack or attacks the impact or direct effect [of which] would be further depression of the US’s economy,” one of the counterterrorism officials said.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 14:50 | Link to Comment lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

129h10 left till July 23 0000 EST.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 14:53 | Link to Comment FunkyMonkeyBoy
FunkyMonkeyBoy's picture

The only terrorist on this planet are the U.S. government... with the U.S. citizenry being ardent, unquestioning and unwavering supporters of this evil.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:00 | Link to Comment cossack55
cossack55's picture

So?

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:28 | Link to Comment snowball777
snowball777's picture

And you didn't stop us?! You're responsible too!

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:17 | Link to Comment Tuco Benedicto ...
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez's picture

That's spelled "Al Ciaeda"!

 

Tuco

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 14:53 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Let's make a deal. If Congress forces the NFL to settle, then Congress can raise the budget ceiling by the amount of income the NFL takes in over one year.

That should give everyone in Congress and the Obama Admin a few more hours of additional time to negotiate the end of the world as we know it. And I get to watch some preseason games in August as God intended.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 14:58 | Link to Comment InvalidID
InvalidID's picture

 

 HA!

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:29 | Link to Comment snowball777
snowball777's picture

Priorities! ;)

Less bread, more circuses!

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:44 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

I'm just trying to get my little ole piece of the action man. What's a poor boy to do, but leverage what little he's got? And what I got is my fat ass on a sofa waiting for the beer commercials and preseason. :)

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:57 | Link to Comment Piranhanoia
Piranhanoia's picture

Oh Cog, the arena?  et tu?

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:09 | Link to Comment Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

What's a poor boy to do

 

Except to sing for a rock n roll band...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TvpGw7xDv8

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:15 | Link to Comment Tuco Benedicto ...
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez's picture

Good idea, but remember pre-season games still don't count!:)

 

Tuco

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 17:00 | Link to Comment snowball777
snowball777's picture

Try telling that to my bookie.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 17:35 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Because you just don't bet on things that don't count.......right? :)

$10 says the next time you turn your head it will be.........left.....right.....left....and not right.....left.......right.

Come on man, I need some action. The British Open is over already and the Asian markets don't open for another.........

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 17:42 | Link to Comment snowball777
snowball777's picture

Neither. Pay up. :)

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 18:10 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

That's "Pay up sucker ".

OK, double or nothing. The next Gold tick will be.........down.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 18:16 | Link to Comment snowball777
snowball777's picture

Poor mofo tatoo'd a dying currency on his hand. LOL

 

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 23:43 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Looks like a snake wrapped round a stake to me.  :>D

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 14:51 | Link to Comment lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

And top republican told McConnell to go suck a bag of dicks.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07/17/top-republican-house-conserva...

Top Republican: House Conservatives Will Not Support McConnell Debt 'Cop-Out'
Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:36 | Link to Comment snowball777
snowball777's picture

A "true believer" with a need for limelight...but his "Tax and Expenditure Limitation Amendment" sounds interesting.

 

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 17:11 | Link to Comment knukles
knukles's picture

"Tax and Expenditure Limitation Agreement."

A temporary solution to a permanent problem manifesting itself in unlimited renewals and extensions.

 

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 14:52 | Link to Comment OneEyedJack
OneEyedJack's picture

I want my.....

I want my.....

I want my..QE Three.........

Dire Straits

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:37 | Link to Comment snowball777
snowball777's picture

No talk. Install u-wave oven. 

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:12 | Link to Comment Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

It's always about the ovens...

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 17:36 | Link to Comment RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Shhh!  You'll stir up the Travs of the site and get them in here to trash the discussion.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 14:53 | Link to Comment honestabe
honestabe's picture

In summary, all parties are far apart and not really talking at this point. The potential House Bill also contains a long laundry list of pork and repeals of previous House legislation which will absolutely anger the Senate. Things are far worse than pictured here. But, the House has not yet formally proposed anything.  Budget legislation begins, by Constitutional law, in the House. So we are at square zero this  Sunday afternoon.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 14:56 | Link to Comment InvalidID
InvalidID's picture

So the general theme is: We know we can't get anything passed, so we'll pretend to try to get everything passed? Is that about right?

 Fucking theater.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 14:57 | Link to Comment Steroid
Steroid's picture

It's time to kill Osama again!

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:02 | Link to Comment cossack55
cossack55's picture

Viking funeral this time. Burn, Biny, Burn.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:14 | Link to Comment BlackholeDivestment
BlackholeDivestment's picture

...brilliant. That's comedy, I recognize it.

...yeah, we could call it ''Thaw''. ''U.N.-Thaw'', peace keeping with a ''pre-emptive'' Nobel Prize, for nuclear NONproLIFEration, given to Rosemary's Baby. What a spiraling vortex of bullshit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXlxFtRi3A4 Of course they could take Colonel Kurtz's advice and just drop the O'Bomba and also go with the Comet that cometh. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Prw-I8QFno

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 23:46 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Hey, Lord Voldemort returned to torment righteous Wizards and Witches everywhere!

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 14:57 | Link to Comment CalibratedConfidence
CalibratedConfidence's picture

I want my Qe 3 Qe 3 Qe 3....baby...Q-E-3

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 20:23 | Link to Comment AGuy
AGuy's picture

I shoulda learned to play with them bankers
Look at that banker, he's got it stickin' in the hamptons

And he's up there, what's that, Keynesian noises
Bangin' on the printing press like a chimpanzee
Oh, that ain't workin' that's the way you do it
Get your money for nothin' get your QE for free!

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:03 | Link to Comment Silver Bug
Silver Bug's picture

We've gone too far down the rabbit hole. The U.S will Default now or at some point over the next couple of years, there is no avoiding it. Hopefully you have your Gold and Silver held tight.

 

http://silverliberationarmy.blogspot.com/

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:21 | Link to Comment cosmictrainwreck
cosmictrainwreck's picture

dude on another thread claims China won't let US default. I am not qualified to comment

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:03 | Link to Comment cossack55
cossack55's picture

Not even good theater anymore. Boring. We need a new Andy Jackson beating hell out some dope with his walking stick. Thats good gubmint.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:13 | Link to Comment Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

Rather.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:05 | Link to Comment ThirdCoastSurfer
ThirdCoastSurfer's picture

Hats off to ZH, the plan coming together really looks to be no cuts, no taxes. The only thing ZH missed, I think, was that under the McConnell plan a "new" deficit commission will be authorized. 


Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:05 | Link to Comment Brian
Brian's picture

I've heard that there are a number of Senators who have pledged to delay any legislation that would actually result in a raising of the debt ceiling (if any such legislation were to materialize).

I have not been able to get confirmation of that.

Anyone know anything about this?

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:23 | Link to Comment snowball777
snowball777's picture

That'd be Baby Paul...the Senator from KFC.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:07 | Link to Comment snowball777
snowball777's picture

You know, in some ways I envy the Eurozone their inevitable break-up...they won't be tied to Greece and Spain after, but America will still be tied to Kentucky, Alabama, South Carolina and Mississippi.

 

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:34 | Link to Comment upWising
upWising's picture

Now don't you go knockin' suthurnrs. Just cuz we don't have enough Last Names in the phone books in lotsa towns dont mean we is shakin up with cuzins or nuthin. And just cuz we git a divorce it don't mean we aint brother and sister no more.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:44 | Link to Comment snowball777
snowball777's picture

There are many fine southern traditions, but paying their share of federal tax revenue is not one of them ( I picked the states with the worst per capita contributions to dollars received ratios ).

They can do whatever they'd like with their cousins after they secede.

I wonder if the people in those blue hills know Rand is putting their $12k per capita subsidy on the chopping block.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:50 | Link to Comment Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

Hey, who you callin' an Ozark Hillbilly?

Speakin' of poor white trash, has anyone seen the Showtime documentary called, "The Wild and Wonderful Whites of West Virginia".

From IMDB:

"Storyline

Shoot-outs, robberies, gas-huffing , drug dealing, pill popping, murders, and tap dancing - what do these all have in common? These are just a few of the parts of being a member of the Wild and Wonderful White Family. The legendary family is as known for their wild, excessive criminal ways as they are for their famous mountain dancing members, including Jesco White, the star of the cult classic documentary "Dancing Outlaw." Exploring both the comic and tragic sides of life on the other side of the law, this stylish, fast-paced family portrait exposes the powerful forces of corruption, poverty, and West Virginia's environmentally and culturally devastating coal mining culture that helped shape the White family, a dying breed of outlaws preserving a dying form of dance."

Now that's a state you don't want to have as a neighbor.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 17:07 | Link to Comment snowball777
snowball777's picture

My ancestors; from my great-great-great-granny on the underground railroad to my bootlegging great uncles...a "tapestry", if you will, but you're more likely to find them in Detroit than WV these days.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYvOsnhV6ZY

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:49 | Link to Comment SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

We promise to leave; do you promise not to invade us when we do?

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:03 | Link to Comment sunnyside
sunnyside's picture

+1861

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:18 | Link to Comment Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

And CA, NY, MA, IL, ad nausium.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:07 | Link to Comment HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

"Line in the sand?" Please, that is so 90's

Make that Chisel in the Marble of the Capitol Building.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:24 | Link to Comment snowball777
snowball777's picture

It worked great for Q'Daffy. ;)

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 17:16 | Link to Comment knukles
knukles's picture

Nooope.  Won't work.
Can't have religious sayings in public buildings anymore.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:10 | Link to Comment equity_momo
equity_momo's picture

These guys should get Hollywood agents.

It used to be that Hollywood made Presidents , now DC  make actors.

Bunch of jokers. Its just depressing the plebs happily/not so happily continue to wallow in their ignorance.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:15 | Link to Comment Libertarian777
Libertarian777's picture

Two simple ways to call everyone's bluff:

1. Submit a bill that forces congress to prioritise interest payments first, and maturing debt second. Everything else is 3rd on the list.

2. Have a nationwide referendum for every citizen to vote on their priority, simple list of 1. SS, 2. Medicare 3.  Medicaid 4. Wars in Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Pakistan 5. education 6. EPA 7. DHS 8. TSA 9. DEA etc.

Then a separate vote for each WORKING taxpayer for which of the above programs they wish to PAY taxes to. No vote, no tax (and no coverage, so if you want TSA 'security' you pay tax for it, and YOU get groped, I don't vote for it, I don't pay for it , and I don't get groped)

 

Once you have the results, the budget is as follows:

(Tax receipts - interest and debt payments) = balance available for discretionary spending

 

Bal x proportionate vote of programs from the referendum = funding for year.

I know, the flaw in my argument is tax receipts - (int + principal) < 0... but hey... at least we will bring it to light.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:28 | Link to Comment oldmanagain
oldmanagain's picture

I think war would be less popular if we had to pay for them.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 22:06 | Link to Comment John_Coltrane
John_Coltrane's picture

Yeah, especially without rape and pillaging.  Bring that back and you might not have to pay salaries or benefits.  I don't thing Genhis Khan had to pay any?

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:47 | Link to Comment oogs66
oogs66's picture

i think with the internet, more things should be decided by referendum...let the people vote...we only have elected representatives because it was impractical to have each citizen vote, maybe now its not

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:06 | Link to Comment Tuco Benedicto ...
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez's picture

Exactly what Gerald Celente is proposing but would the votes be overseen by the same gang that oversees current voting system?!  Trust me, they would figure a way to corrupt the system, afterall that is their area of expertise.  Unfortunately, we will have to just flush the system and the feces that run it.

 

Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 17:40 | Link to Comment RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

So our new overlords would be the hackers.   Couldn't be much worse than what we have.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:16 | Link to Comment buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

If j. dimon and lord blenkcheck want the ceiling raised it shall be so.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:24 | Link to Comment cosmictrainwreck
cosmictrainwreck's picture

buzzsaw always hits the bullseye. any those dip-shit "reporters" intervied the dynamic duo yet? if so, I missed it

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:18 | Link to Comment johny2
johny2's picture

And I thought EU politicians are silliest bunch of all, but USA team is in a class of its own. Goodbye dollar reserve currency and hello gold standard.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:20 | Link to Comment SOLnow
SOLnow's picture

The louder the public BS, the more secretive the backroom deals.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:20 | Link to Comment Fazzie
Fazzie's picture

  Somehow the "extend and pretend" doctrine always prevails. The GOP is just posturing for the cameras.

  The GOP loves big govt , big spending and big taxes.(middle class taxpayers of course)

 Look at what they do, ignore what they say.

 Its amazing intelligent humans really think either the Dems or the GOP is on their side.

 I predict the GOP will "reluctantly" cave to the extend and pretend, with some meaningless promise to become magically hawkish in a magical future where the US is prospering.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:29 | Link to Comment EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

On their side? The GOP/Democrats is the same party. Carroll Quigley exposed this in "Tragedy and Hope", Clinton highlighted Quigley as an inspiration, and somehow people still fail to understand this?

There's been no real choice since 1881.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:41 | Link to Comment upWising
upWising's picture

George Wallace in 1968 (or so) on the "two party system":

"Its Dwiddle-Dee and Dwiddle-Dumb and their aint a dime's worth of difference between the two."  George had it right way back then.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:22 | Link to Comment JPMorgan
JPMorgan's picture

The debt limit will be raised, but it will make no difference.

It's too late... at this point it's just an case of 'when' the inevitable will happen and the US defaults.

The debt is so large it's now a unstoppable run away monster.

They lost the ability to manage and control it long ago.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:27 | Link to Comment EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

That was always the case, even before this pathetic "debt ceiling struggle". Fucks sake, the democrats have always just casually accepted a hike during GOP leadership, and suddenly they have no bargaining power when it's the other way around?

Give me a fucking break. This entire thing is scripted.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:08 | Link to Comment Bobportlandor
Bobportlandor's picture

Been scripted for a long while. 

Ball of Confusion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15AFE7RhoA0

@ at 1:20 what did the politition say?


Sun, 07/17/2011 - 23:52 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Don't even have to watch:  "Mo' taxes, will solve everythang!"

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:57 | Link to Comment Bobportlandor
Bobportlandor's picture

I agree, no point in even getting upset, just get ready.

 

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:25 | Link to Comment EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Oh, this fucking theatre is still ongoing?

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:29 | Link to Comment MobBarley
MobBarley's picture

On CNN just now said Social Security checks will be delayed going out by

 

drumroll 1 day.

 

 

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:08 | Link to Comment slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

no mention of the obligatory $50 late fee?  jeeeeZZZ!  i wish! 

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:32 | Link to Comment Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

The drama! Let Obama borrow more money or our credit rating will go to shit. Is that how it works for business? When they are bankrupt, they just borrow more and all is good? Only if you are a bankster.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:33 | Link to Comment Hal n back
Hal n back's picture

Damn; if everybody in the country would just contribute $50,000 we could get rid of the debt.

 

Well, almost, we probably need another 150k a person to fund the unfunded entitlemnets to a point wher ethey could self fund.

 

Well, almost, since 51% of population does not pay taxes they probably think they are entitled to all the services available without paying tax.So the remaining 49% have to com eup with 400k each rather than the 200k mentioedn above.

 

Well, not really, many of the remaining taxpayers are children and the parents do not have the ability to pay their 400k, so let's say 800k for the remaining 20% of so.

 

Well, not really--we hav e to pay down local govt debts too--I'll guess that at 200k a person for the remaining taxpayers.

 

Not really, since many of the remaining will see this tax bill coming and do something aabout it like moving out of the country.

 

Isn't this what Margaret Thacker said so simply-pretty soon you run out of those able and willing to pay taxes? Or something like that. 

 

PS-I do like the concept that the 51% not paying taxes can vote in who will allow that to not only continue but raise taxes on the remaining minority to more can be transfered to the non payers. Even better is how the media plays to that.

 

 

 

 

 

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:55 | Link to Comment justanotherday
justanotherday's picture

In summary, immobile factors are f'd.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:56 | Link to Comment Mike2756
Mike2756's picture

nyet! that would give them an excuse to rack up another 14T.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:40 | Link to Comment Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure.
It is a sign that the US Government can not pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on
ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies.
Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the
buck stops here.' Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs
of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans
deserve better.” Senator Barack H. Obama, March 2006 [AKA Barry Soetoro, Barack Hussein Obama II]

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:14 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

The only way to fund Michele Obamas vacations is to raise the debt ceiling a few trillion.

According to CBS News, the tax dollar part of the vacation include an estimated $146,000 round-trip cost for the U.S. Air Force 757 aircraft, not counting ground time; about $95,000 in hotel costs for an estimated 70 security personnel -- Secret Service and military -- who get a $273-a-day government per diem, plus costs for the dozen or so cars in her motorcade. I'm told that three shifts of agents are needed for a trip of this magnitude.

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/08/06/michelle-obamas-lavish-spain-vacation-sparking-criticism/

First Lady Michelle Obama’s trip to South Africa and Botswana last week cost taxpayers well over half a million dollars, possibly in the range of $700,000 or $800,000, according to an analysis by White House Dossier.

http://www.whitehousedossier.com/2011/06/27/michelles-south-africa-trip-cost-taxpayers-500000/

Despite the extravagant entourage, when it comes to frugality Mrs. Obama is a pro.  A flight from DC to Colorado is 1,700 miles and takes approximately 3 hours.  Although the First Lady usually employs a large Air Force jet to ferry her from vacation spot to vacation spot, this time she answered the call to live within the Obama family means in the following way: To save money, instead of Air Force One, which costs about $100,000 per hour to fly, Michelle chose a less expensive jet.  On a tight budget, the ski trip is but a few steps above a school-sponsored field trip.  The chaperones are staying at the Sebastian Hotel, where lodging starts at "$605 per night ... and head north of $2,000 for multi-bedroom suites."  Those rates are certainly more modest than the $6,600 a night Mrs. Obama was rumored to have spent at the Hotel Villa Padierna in Costa del Sol.  

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/02/michele_obama_big_sacrifces_on.html 

“Any plan to reduce our deficit substantially must reflect American values of fairness and shared sacrifice”" 

-Hussein Obama

“I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody” 

-Hussein Obama

 

Here is the gem

Earlier this week, the Press Trust of India reported that the United States will "be spending a whopping $200 million per day on President Barack Obama's visit" to Mumbai.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20021841-503544.html

Eat your fuckin' peas bitches.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:16 | Link to Comment slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

isn't michelle wonderful?  i think she may be related to thomas jefferson

 

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:24 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Our country is broke slewie. We're going to need to raise your taxes. Shared sacrifice.

I still can't believe that motherfucker told us to eat our peas. 

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 17:43 | Link to Comment knukles
knukles's picture

Actually, I was eating my large meal of the day listening to him speak, and only doing that because I didn't have both hands free to type or play with myself, and I was eating.... ta dah... peas.  Uh huh.
Which when he said that, I chortle-choked and peas were expelled out of my right nostril.
Proud that I'd mastered a new trick, I've been trying it everywhere I go.  I sit down minding my own business in a nice, white table cloth restaurant, eating for example, the 3 1/2 lb. cut of bloody rare rib, mashies and.... ta dah... peas, after the shrimp cocktail and foie gras.
And when I get full, I simply stuff as many peas in my mouth as possible, think of His Chicago Holiness telling me I gotta eat 'em and .... voila!
Peas blow everywhere.

So I get thrown out.  Awwwww.  Usually before I even have to pay.  And that my fellow Americuns, is how I, in His Holiness's words, am making my "shared sacrifice" with peas.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 20:49 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

+ $1590

My vote for laugh of the day!

Mon, 07/18/2011 - 03:00 | Link to Comment John_Coltrane
John_Coltrane's picture

Bumper sticker:  "Visualize Whirled Peas"

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 22:04 | Link to Comment Hulk
Hulk's picture

LOL, thanks for the chuckle. Peas be with you!

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:02 | Link to Comment oldmanagain
oldmanagain's picture

I think Obama is and was correct.  It is possible to balance if those with money pay without all the loopholes.  Wages have declined for a decade  and being wiped out by inflation. There must be an upward shift in wages too. Much harder to do as tech is reducing manpower need.  However infrastucture is a need and hoped for solution.

The middle class has taken a hit. The Pub idea of limiting their health, education, and retirement is in line with animal spirits. Will it be successful?  The collapse of middle will bring down the top sooner or later.  

The stranglehold the elite have politically makes it a hard fight.  One only has to see where the battle lines are drawn in the ceiling debate.  Upper class is to be exempt from responsibility. This cannot work.  Contrary to tea party lore, putting it back togather after the collapse will be harder.  There will a far smaller upper class.  Much higher resource costs.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:04 | Link to Comment oldmanagain
oldmanagain's picture

I think Obama is and was correct.  It is possible to balance if those with money pay without all the loopholes.  Wages have declined for a decade  and being wiped out by inflation. There must be an upward shift in wages too. Much harder to do as tech is reducing manpower need.  However infrastucture is a need and hoped for solution.

The middle class has taken a hit. The Pub idea of limiting their health, education, and retirement is in line with animal spirits. Will it be successful?  The collapse of middle will bring down the top sooner or later.  

The stranglehold the elite have politically makes it a hard fight.  One only has to see where the battle lines are drawn in the ceiling debate.  Upper class is to be exempt from responsibility. This cannot work.  Contrary to tea party lore, putting it back togather after the collapse will be harder.  There will be a far smaller upper class.  Much higher resource costs.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:49 | Link to Comment oogs66
oogs66's picture

without all the theatre stocks would only go up 2% when they announce an agreement, they want stocks to go up 5% so have to pretend they really doing something big

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:57 | Link to Comment Tuco Benedicto ...
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez's picture

Thanks for latest update T. D.  You da' man!

 

Tuco

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 15:58 | Link to Comment dolly madison
dolly madison's picture

"Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid and Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell are discussing modifications to a plan put forward by McConnell that would raise the debt limit and put nearly all the burden on Obama to carry it out. The plan could include about $1.5 trillion in spending cuts and set up a congressional panel to find further savings."

 

This is the one that makes me most nervous.  Reps going around giving Dem presidents new powers is scary.  It makes no logical sense unless you start thinking of evil scenarios.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 18:30 | Link to Comment Dr Zaius
Dr Zaius's picture

The way things go in Washington, such a temporary measure will simply become permanent as the congress critters discover it's much easier for them if there is no accountability at all on their part.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:00 | Link to Comment geno-econ
geno-econ's picture

Do you remember the old Christmas Club Savings Account that allowed you to plan for holiday gifts?  Well, along came the Credit Card and Nixon unpegging gold allowing for big time fiat currency.  Its pay back time America.  We will have to relearn to do without that cruise, leased car every two years, country club golf, vacation home, dinner out whenever the wife has a headache , Johnny's new Iphone, video game, big screenTV and a lot more nonsense.  We may even decide to talk seriously to each other and act as a nation again by saving and planning for our future rather than leaving it to our politicians and multinational corporations. 

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:06 | Link to Comment Franken_Stein
Franken_Stein's picture

 

Wise words indeed.

 

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:18 | Link to Comment Bang Dae Ho
Bang Dae Ho's picture

well said. the printing press is a device to steal wealth from the future. The biggest share of stolen goods went to the bankers. but the middle class also had its share, as you describe it:

leased car every two years, country club golf, vacation home, dinner out whenever the wife has a headache , Johnny's new Iphone, video game, big screenTV

If all this crap were real fun, there would be at least a little justification for the heist, but it was not really fun, just distraction from one of the biggest delusions of mankind.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 21:08 | Link to Comment sellstop
sellstop's picture

Yes! Imagine what a car would cost if everyone had to pay cash!

And medical care. Hell very few could afford it. The price would collapse overnight.

And wages, they could collapse too! Oh, what a wonderful world it will be!

O'kay, you go first....you take a paycut and then I will.

gh

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:12 | Link to Comment Piranhanoia
Piranhanoia's picture

We probably should remember that Reuters is owned by the people that direct all the players in the game to act in their benefit.  The cast of characters couldn't get a job on the Muppets as it was witty and truthful.  They are doing daytime tv on a sunday so they are irrelevant players and appearing only to their peers as no one else cares.

Everyone of them has a union card, an excellent medical program free, retirement account, can't be charged with a crime, a federal job paying far less than they make per year. They have decided to be actors and shills. It was their choice betraying us. You don't get to join them as their club takes no prisoners.  You can't get rich like them or powerful because they will simply eat you.

Everyone benefits by socialism taken to an extreme by the very people that claim their socialism is bad. Get it?

If you keep watching them, you will go blind. If you keep listening, you will die.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:16 | Link to Comment harveywalbinger
harveywalbinger's picture

It's not really a 'complete' discussion of the debt/deficit position of the Corporate United States of America unless the Comprehensive Annual Financial Report is a part of the discussion... 

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Comprehensive_annual_fina...

http://cafr1.com/

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:25 | Link to Comment Whoa Dammit
Whoa Dammit's picture

Serious question:

Has anyone ever seen a study that shows the percentage of government money spent that directly and more importantly indirectly winds up in the invisible greedy little hands of mega corporations?

Think about some of the indirects: A lot of SS winds up with Big Pharma & Walmart, SNAP with Walmart, Medicare & Medicaid with Big Pharma, Military with GE, Ag subsidies with Archer Daniel Midlands & Monsanto etc.

And think about this in terms of our debt problems, i.e. Who really benefits from government spending. And who the true leeches are.

If anyone has statistical info on this, please let me know.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:52 | Link to Comment Selah
Selah's picture

 

Why would anyone conduct such a study?

Those that get financing to do these types of studies have a vested interest in keeping the grant-money coming. It would be self-defeating.

The leeches have to promote Keynesian money printing to fund their existence.

Just like when the old fashioned blood-letting cures didn't work with leeches, the obvious solution was more leeches.

 

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 18:13 | Link to Comment knukles
knukles's picture

Because they could get federal funding from the American Academy of Incongruent and Incomprehensible Studies, keep themselves self-employed for say, 3 good years with no adult supervision, review or responsibility.  And when finished, some pseudo-scholarly pablum rag would excerpt the author's outrageous non-fact based imaginary politically correct conjecture summary which had nothing to do with the nonexistent research, thereby catapulting it into mainstream biased unfounded opinion leading to more federal funding from the American Academy of .....

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:50 | Link to Comment slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

President Barack Obama has no scheduled face-to-face meetings with Democratic and Republican leaders in Congress.

yep, b/c the congo said:  fuk this noise!  but, they worked w/biden & prez0 for a decent while, first.  so, they understand all the "bottom lines" which need to be respected in this charade i call The Big Whatever.  now, the congo is gonna try to do its job, which is to tell prez0 what they want done, here, and he can either sign it, if he's around at the time, or not.  so, good!

the legislative process should be fairly open;  and humorous, of course.  i predict (get ready to fade slewie!) a mexican-american standoff, where he just refuses to sign the bill, and autograph the sausage, followed by:  well, one could only hope for a re-affirmation of the fascist Bush II doctrine of "the unitary Executive" wedded in a ceremony of tears about "the homeland" followed by a fuking revo, cinching the default, and the end of international corporate-political-military lawlessness in our nation.

man, this shit is goooood!

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 22:29 | Link to Comment RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

We could only hope for such a fortuitous result, Slewie!

I'd relish the revolution to follow.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:47 | Link to Comment rufusbird
rufusbird's picture

some perspective of the debt increase...

 

total employed Americans 140,000,000 hours worked per person per year 2000 Total man hours worked per year 280,000,000,000 dollars per hour to equal 1.4 trillion dollars equals
$5.00 per hour per working person
total
$1,400,000,000,000.000
Sun, 07/17/2011 - 17:32 | Link to Comment Bob
Bob's picture

Funny, but I've been assuming, like most everybody, that the ceiling will be raised because it has to be.  TEOTWAWKI and all. 

What if "they're" ready for TEOTWAWKI and we're watching it in real time.  With the population primed to blame it on the politicians. 

Now that would be worthy of oligarchs.  The planes are loaded and fueled, the assets are secured and the destination flight path is clear. 

Maybe we're really looking at "the end."

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 17:31 | Link to Comment rubearish10
rubearish10's picture

Now that the US Women's Soccer Team lost the Finals, the BO clan is pissed. Watch out for fireworks in the form of another 24-36 hour ultimatum.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 17:35 | Link to Comment geno-econ
geno-econ's picture

I would take a more macro economic global view of US deficit spending beneficiaries. Yes , much of entitlements wind up with  retailers that transfer a large portion to China for instance.   However, deficit spending  in general helps consumer spending to China's benefit which explains why China purchases US teasuries---its a good deal for them. Corporate tax brakes also help multinationals increase profits but those profits are then invested in overseas plants and outsourcing. Same with bank bailouts. Initially it saves banks and the credit system , but ultimatly the money flows into consumer spending {70% of economy} and China wins again. Even a large portion of military spending goes overseas in the form of aide, corruption, paying for troop training /salaries, local procurement ,use of airports,warehouses, ports etc. Also much of interest on our debt is paid to oveseas lenders. Iam sure the Treasury  Dept could massage the numbers and come up with a cost /damage analysis but it would definetly show that for every $ of deficits there is a corresponding loss of wealth creation in US economy . That in essence is the dilemma our polititians refuse to recognize  and multinaltional corporations and bankers wish to ignore. So short of protectionism, a modern day no-no, the only way to avoid deficit implosion is to limit spending,especilly consumer spending . It can be done through a gradual budget process over time or through a calamatous default and forced austerity.   Does not look good in any case

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 17:44 | Link to Comment Forgiven
Forgiven's picture

I'm really sick of the charade that anything meaningful will be accomplished in DC.  They will raise the ceiling, despite the will of the people against it, because they have no solution but the enrichment of themselves and their cronies.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 18:35 | Link to Comment fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

+20 trillion Thousands of analysis and yours is the only real truth I have read + 20 trillion

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 17:51 | Link to Comment jkruffin
jkruffin's picture

We will now see if Republicans have any balls at all, or are they just lame ducks and do boys like the Democrats.  All of them are certifiable, but lets see if these so called Tea Party Republicans are true to their words they ran for office on.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 17:53 | Link to Comment jkruffin
jkruffin's picture

We will now see if Republicans have any balls at all, or are they just lame ducks and do boys like the Democrats.  All of them are certifiable, but lets see if these so called Tea Party Republicans are true to their words they ran for office on.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 17:55 | Link to Comment jkruffin
jkruffin's picture

We will now see if Republicans have any balls at all, or are they just lame ducks and do boys like the Democrats.  All of them are certifiable, but lets see if these so called Tea Party Republicans are true to their words they ran for office on.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 17:56 | Link to Comment NumNutt
NumNutt's picture

Well I have prepared myself: I am prepared to hear the Federal government tell me that I will have to work until I am 75 (or until I drop dead, whichever comes first), there will be no Medicare when I turn 75, and that they will need to take control of my 401k. I can't wait until I have to sit down with my kid and explain to him that he is now a debt slave and to forget about those dreams of becoming an astronaut since Obama has killed the space program.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 19:10 | Link to Comment Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

O'Drama to American public.. "If I don't get my tax increase w/ debt ceiling increase, you'll reget!!"

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 20:55 | Link to Comment samsara
samsara's picture

Hmmm.   That's sounds like Hank Paulson's old line.

"Give me $700 Billion by Friday,  or I'll pull this pin here..."

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 19:34 | Link to Comment AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

 

Jewish grandmother in Israel tells the truth about fake bankster Jews in America.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjqN4dtbSOA

 

Jew: "They say there are lots of anti-semites out there"

Grandma: "Where? Abroad? Then why don't they come here? If there are anti-semites, why don't they come here [Israel]? Are they waiting to get killed?"

Jew: "Why don't they come?"

Grandma: "Well, they love money.Jews love money. Jews are crooks. A Jew is a crook. They make money there. Why should they come here [Israel] and work for money if they can make money there without working?"

Jew: "Don't they work there?"

Grandma: "They don't work. That's what I'm saying. They have money without working. If they come here, they have to work"

Jew: "How do they have money without working?"

Grandma: "How do they make money? Interest. lending money at high rates...selling liquor....wine...Jews know this monkey business. Jews know all about monkey business"

Grandma: "I tell you, I am the real Jew. Money does not blind me."

Jew: "But you talk like anti-semites saying Jews don't work"

Grandme: "No I don't...if they want to stay abroad...Are they waiting for another Hitler to come and kill them before they run away?"

 

Even jews are ashamed. There are many decent jews. They know if they don't police themselves, then world will give rise to the second coming of Hitler.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 20:30 | Link to Comment Waterfallsparkles
Waterfallsparkles's picture

My Mother used to sing What Will Be Will Be The Future is Not Ours To See.  Casa Ra Casa Ra.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 22:56 | Link to Comment RockyRacoon
Sun, 07/17/2011 - 20:31 | Link to Comment Waterfallsparkles
Waterfallsparkles's picture

My Mother used to sing What Will Be Will Be The Future is Not Ours To See.  Casa Ra Sir Ra.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 21:37 | Link to Comment sasebo
sasebo's picture

You think the delusional asshole bankers & pompous asshole politicians will ever figure out that paper money is useless & has no meaning unless there is something to purchase with it?

How about when they find no groceries at the local grocery or no gas at the local gas station?

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 22:07 | Link to Comment QQQBall
QQQBall's picture

Tyler,

 

I want to apply for a ZH trademark on the Bhillary Barometer. You can measure how deep the shit is for Omunner by measuring how far away from DC Bhillary is hiding.

Mon, 07/18/2011 - 01:14 | Link to Comment Fox Moulder
Fox Moulder's picture

Forget the tanks in the street and no Social Security checks in the mail. Now it's "al-Qaeda" will attack if the debt ceiling is not raised.

http://12160.info/forum/topics/experts-warn-of-al-qaeda-attac

 

http://www.hstoday.us/industry-news/general/single-article/ct-sources-am...

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!