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Congratulations, America. Torture Has Led You On a Wild Goose Chase, Destroyed the Rule of Law and Made You Less Safe
There are numerous headlines this week about torture:
But these headlines make no sense unless they are put in context and given historical background:
- President Obama, Attorney General Eric Holder, Malcolm Nance (an advisor on terrorism to the US departments of Homeland Security, Special Operations and Intelligence), Lt. Gen. Michael D. Maples
(the director of the Defense Intelligence Agency) and many other
interrogation experts and high-level politicians say that waterboarding
is torture
- The United States has always considered waterboarding to be a crime of torture, including when the Japanese did it in WWII (and see this)
- Everyone claiming waterboarding is not torture has changed their tune as soon as they were exposed to even a small dose of it themselves. See this, this and this
- Former Navy Judge Advocate General Admiral John Hutson said that "Torture is the technique of choice of the lazy, stupid and pseudo-tough"
- One of the Military's Top Interrogators Says Torture Cost Hundreds 'If Not Thousands' Of American Lives
- Torture Is Not a Partisan Issue . . . George Washington - Who Was Neither a Democrat or Republican - Forbid All Torture
- One
of the Main Sources for the 9/11 Commission Report was Tortured Until
He Agreed to Sign a Confession that He Was NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO READ
- 9/11
Mastermind: "During ... My Interrogation I Gave A Lot Of False
Information In Order To Satisfy What I Believed The Interrogators Wished
To Hear"
- The Senior Counsel to the 9/11 Commission (John Farmer) - who led the 9/11 staff's inquiry - recently said: "The CIA tapes of the interrogations were destroyed. The story of 9/11 itself, to put it mildly, was distorted and was completely different from the way things happened"
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Very convenient as they are considered non persons at the sole discretion of the US.
They have no uniform.
On a battlefield they look like civilians...which makes them less than "non persons" in my view...they are cowards who hide behind women and children when not planting bombs among women and children in market places & other public venues.
Feel free to defend their tactics all you want.
Good luck.
SeeYa
Why would anyone put on a uniform and announce their presence to a superior enemy?
Look, any tactics the enemy uses against us over there have evolved naturally throughout the history of guerrilla warfare. When you are invaded by a superior enemy, you disappear, and slowly discourage your enemy with any kind of dirty trick you can engineer, until they leave. No one is defending these tactics, but the fact that they are being employed should come as no surprise to anyone who has read anything about any such similar situation. That's price you pay when you invade.
What would you do in their situation? Put a uniform on and commit suicide? No, you'd join the fucken resistance, bro. They're not idiots.
"What would you do in their situation? Put a uniform on and commit suicide? No, you'd join the fucken resistance, bro."
Yes I would.
But I'll also tell you what I wouldn't do.
I wouldn't be wholesale slaughtering the same people I'm fighting for. I wouldn't be terrorizing civilians by hanging them in the town square...I wouldn't be killing their kids to frighten them into helping my cause.
And guerrilla's are not covered either.
Combatants wear uniforms to keep the civilians from getting hurt...if I was out of uniform...engaged in "my war"...I would expect a bullet in the head if I was captured.
And I certainly would not expect a bunch of arm chair moralists second guessing my actions.
It is what it is.
"They have no uniform"
So.. we invade THEIR country.. and expect them to play by OUR rules?
THEY are cowards? They're not the ones sitting in AC-130s at 30,000 feet firing toxic depleted uranium munitions at specks on a screen... or firing hellfire missiles from drones they're controlling from another continent.
You WISH you had half the balls these guys have - stone age pastoralists fighting the most advanced army with the most devastating weapons on earth.
Yes, they're a bunch of moronic, neolithic mysogynists. But they're not cowards.
They are cowards. As you acknowledge they are a bunch of moronic, neolithic mysogynists (whom you envy). They do not want to fit into the current "world". Rather than be decent citizens, they feel it is there right to butcher anyone who is valued as "beneath them".
If you would be so kind as to step away from your cheezies, would you mind telling me your thoughts on 9-11 and injustice inflicted on the victims?
Who would you define as a victim of 9-11? Were some victims more victimized than other victims? What would be the proper collective action in response to 9-11?
Thank you for your attention to this matter.
No, they are not cowards by any reasonable definition of that word.
Do I envy them? Again, no; I wouldn't mind a modicum of their physical bravery, but I can't think of anything enviable about their worldview or situation.
And expecting them to be 'decent citizens' is unreasonable given that they have a tribalist worldview and are stuck within the boundaries of a multi-ethnic state they had nothing to do with creating.
I'm not sure the relevance (or even context) of your 9-11 questions. You do understand that the Taliban were not responsible for 9-11, right?
I'm afraid I can't help you with the cheezies request - I don't eat them.
Well problem is that pretty much anyone can be deemed as terrorist these days. Don't need to be on a battle ground... no need to plant bombs or fight. Actually having a name remotely close to some supposed bad guys might do the trick. As long as you displease someone in a 3 letter organization it is good enough to be arrested - be in on US or foreign soil - shipped to some outsourced prison camp in a "friendly" dictatorship and tortured. If you are lucky you might get released after a few years, if not your life might just come to an abrupt end - all this obviously without being charged or see a court. They are numerous documented cases.
Now if your goal is to maintain a perpetual state of war and terrorist fear I guess it's pretty much fair game...
Most of Those Tortured Were Innocent
First of all, any holier-than-thou motherfucker using the pseudonym "George Washington" is probably a certifiably self-important asshole. Second of all, only three terrorists were waterboarded--including KSM who has already admitted to beheading Daniel Pearl and masterminding the 9/11 attack. The other two were not choirboys either (Binalshibh and Zubaydah). Quoting Larry Wilkerson carries all the water of seive for anybody even remotely aware of his far-leftist, Bush-hating insanity. Can't you be satisfied that your buddies at the NYT have shot holes through many of the programs that were successful in tripping up terrorist plots? Isn't it enough that the fuckhead in the Oval Office has already allowed 13+ terrorist attacks in the U.S. on his watch? WTF has to happen to satisfy you morally vain pricks, a thermonuclear detontation in a major U.S metropolitan area? If so, hopefully you and a few of your loved ones will be among those incinerated.
"Second of all, only three terrorists were waterboarded--including KSM who has already admitted to beheading Daniel Pearl and masterminding the 9/11 attack. The other two were not choirboys either (Binalshibh and Zubaydah). Quoting Larry Wilkerson carries all the water of seive for anybody even remotely aware of his far-leftist, Bush-hating insanity."
Much ado eh?...LOL.
Your link speaks to detention for the most part.
So, I will assume you do not dispute that terrorists are not covered by the "rules of war"?
people like you have really no clue what is going on. you think you need the geneva convention to realize torturing, even torturing children is wrong? you call them terrorists because after being tortured they admit to it. you are part of the thug psychology encouraged by the pentagon in america.
Next.
I think you need to re-watch the movie your avatar comes from and get back to us.
Torture generally doesn't work as an interrogation technique.
First of all, under the ticking timebomb scenario, you have to assume the person captured has actionable intelligence and the fact the person has been captured is not known to co-conspirators. Because the first assumption a co-conspirator is going to make if you are captured is you will roll on the plan so the plan will change.
Second if the person happens to not have actionable intelligence what you will get yourself is a wild goose chase since the person will after insisting they know nothing for a while will eventually tell you something crazy for you to investigate to make it stop.
What your instinct is to do...beat something or torture something out of someone might not be the best thing. I have plenty of instincts throughout the day. I don't follow through with all of them.
The ticking time bomb only happens on TV.
RT has a good story on the book Bush had written for him.
http://rt.com/news/bush-memoirs-baker-gaunt/
Wrong.
Wrong about what?
That the link spoke about prisoners or about terrorists not being covered under Geneva?
Look GW...for every waterboarding I can give you AQI slicing peoples faces off with piano wire or placing children in ovens and serving them to their parents to scare them into allegiance.
You don't want to do this...it's graphic.
This is why the people turned on them...because they were ruthless, evil men.
But this is America, you are free to post whatever you want. Veterans have assured you of that.
No terrorist organization has ever signed the Geneva Conventions...if I am wrong show me ;-)
what a self serving piece of drivel . how about the u.s. soldiers who cut open their victim's bodies to take their organ's as trophies? how about the ones who murdered just for fun? but nevermind, the iraqi people are like some kind of hansel and gretel fairy tale for you to feel good about your treasured military.
Your an idiot!
LOL
First of all, your argument is moot.
Why?
The top experts say that torture DOESN't work to gain actionable intelligence, and actually DESTROYS national security (please READ the material linked above).
In addition, your logic is 100% circular, sir. If the U.S. government throws you in prison and tortures you, it was because you were in Al Qaeda.
How do we know you were in Al Qaeda?
Because otherwise we wouldn't have captured you and tortured you, of course...
"The top experts say that torture DOESN't work to gain actionable intelligence, and actually DESTROYS national security..."
"Top experts" can say whatever they are paid to say...Bwaney Fwank was a "top expert" in subprime mortgages was he not?...Mozzilo in originating them correct?...regardless, KSM spit out the name of bin al-Shibh didn't he, among others?
What does the experts say about that?
If we have to do this we will...so here we go.
If your wife and children were kidnapped & locked in a large coffin (per the ransom note & limited air supply...the time limit quandary) and you had evidence (your wife's watch was found on him when he was captured) that the guy sitting bound to the chair in front of you might know where they were buried...and all he does is smile an evil grin...what would you do?
I know what I would do...what would you do?
Stupid example. You watch too much "24".
Look at it from the perp's perspective- if he's really fanatical and committed to a terrorist action (or kidnapping, in your example), he lets them torture him for a bit and then gives up some false information. Then does it again, and again, until it's too late. The bomb has gone off, they've run out of air, whatever.
Stop reflexively defending the military. Anyway, it wasn't their idea, they just carried it out per super secret spook directives.
I'd like to see the torture tapes to assess what portion of those who were given 'extraordinary rendition' (why it needs an orwellian name if it isnt outrageously immoral i'm not certain of) were smiling an evil grin. I bet it would be less than 5% and the majority would be terrified.
nmewn, these people are actual human beings, not hollywood cariacatures
your inhumane views disentitle you to use the icon of V for Vendetta
"nmewn, these people are actual human beings"
These "people" who were captured, with very few exceptions, were animals who were caught on the battlefield...out of uniform...trying to kill our troops...who would saw your head off with a dull knife like they did to Danny Pearl & countless other people.
Again, with a few exceptions, the ones who were let go after their military trial (yes trials were conducted) were again captured or killed while committing terrorist acts.
You should worry less about avatars and more about the subject at hand ;-)
You did not read the linked material.
For example, this was included:
And - according to the experts - torture is unnecessary even to prevent "ticking time bombs" from exploding (see this, this and this). Indeed, a top expert says that torture would fail in a real 'ticking time-bomb' situation
George...answer me.
What would you do.
Thats easy. I would commit a crime and perform acts on him until he told me. Then when he did I would expect to be punished for my criminal behavior...But I'm an individual not the government....The government is to follow the rule of law...and if I worked for the government and there really was the ticking bomb I would sacrifice my liberty and commit the crime and expect to be punished according to the law - but not to destroy the rule of law...
If men knew they would be punished there would be very little willy nilly torture...there really would be the ticking bomb or the buried loved one...not some hypothetical scenario always thrown out to justify dangerous policy...
1) It was never a "policy" to torture incoming prisoners.
2) Sleep deprivation is not torture, ask any new parent.
3) Placing a prisoner in a box with creepy crawly bugs is not torture. If it was, the Chinese would do it.
4) Waterboarding is considered rough foreplay in San Francisco.