Contagion

From Foreign Exchange Research, Barclays Capital
The key lesson from the ERM crisis of 1992 and the Asian crisis of 1997 is that contagion can emerge quickly and often in unpredictable ways. Unwinding of leveraged positions by distressed market participants, herding behaviour among investors, and loss of liquidity that gives way to general flight to quality can all lead to heightened correlations between markets and, in extremely circumstances, set off a self-filling crisis on a regional/global scale. There have been clear signs over the past week that the distress in the Greek government bond market is increasingly being felt in other euro area countries such as Spain and Portugal. The most likely explanation of this development is the “demonstration effect” – the Greek crisis is likely to have caused investors to re-evaluate the fundamentals of these countries. Spain and Greece may not have strong financial or economic links, but their fundamentals have a lot in common.
The possibility of contagion of the Greek crisis may not end with Spain. There is a presumption among investors that in the worst case scenario (and we are not there yet) the EU will give Greece financial assistance. If this is an isolated event, the effect on the overall public finances of the EU is unlikely to be substantial. However, a bailout of Greece may make aid to other countries in similar situations more likely (moral hazard). A series of open-ended bailouts would not only undermine the fiscal positions of core euro area countries such as Germany and France but, more dangerously, would weaken their political commitment to the continuation of the euro area project.
This is probably why Greece is exerting what may seem to be a disproportionate influence on the markets of other euro area countries. We can see this by using the principal component analysis (PCA) to identify the common drivers of the EU government bond markets. Our exercise focuses on Germany, France, UK, Spain, Italy, Sweden and Greece. Figure 3 presents the factor weights of the first two principal components for the past six months. The first two principal components can be interpreted as latent factors capturing the majority of the variation (the r-square is a cumulative 80%) in bond yields across the various European countries. They illustrate that while Greece has been a relatively small part of the primary common driver of the major EU government bond markets, it has been the most important component of the secondary common driver.
It is often found in PCA that it is difficult to attribute a particular principal component to a specific economic driver. However, while we can probably view the first principal component as capturing the common factor for the European interest rate cycles, one interpretation of the second principle component is as a reflection of the common sovereign risk. The fact that the factor weights for the likes of Greece, Italy, and Spain carry a positive sign, while Germany, Sweden, UK and France carry negative weights, would support this interpretation. We also note that this second principal component can explain 20% of the joint variation of returns of government bond yields over the sample period.
Global dimension of sovereign crisis
If it was a mistake three months ago to view the Greek crisis as a localized event, it would be a mistake now to see it as a euro-area-specific event. Indeed, global sovereign risk premia, which declined steadily in the first half of 2009, have been all moving higher at varying speeds since last September (Figure 4).
Sovereign CDS has a short history. To get a sense of where sovereign credit risk premium is now relative to history, we need to find alternative measures. One such proxy is swap spreads (differential between the fixed rate leg of interest rate swaps and government bond yields). While the usual interpretation of very wide positive swap spreads is heightened counterparty risks and flight to quality, the natural interpretation of very narrow positive swap spreads (or wide negative spreads) is that it reflects high sovereign credit and refinancing risk premium. Figure 6 plots the average 10y swap spreads for the 10 largest developed economies in the world (US, Japan, Germany, France, UK, Italy, Spain, Canada Australia and Sweden). It demonstrates that the level of the spread is currently a two standard deviations event relative to the past twenty years. In this sense, it may not be an exaggeration to say that general developed country sovereign risk premium is at a 20-year high.
The same chart shows that swap spreads were negative back in January 2009 when the market had to digest the news of President Obama’s $787bn stimulus program but these concerns eased through most of 2009. Can that happen again? We would argue that the easing of sovereign risk is due in large part to the Fed’s large-scale asset purchase program, which we have argued in the past (The case for a stronger USD in 2010, 27 November 2009) extensively created a bond shortage (Figure 5). With the BoE deciding to pause in its asset purchase program this week and our view that the Fed will follow suit in March, the bond market will struggle to digest the record sovereign issuance in the pipeline globally this year. This means that all else being equal, sovereign credit risk premium can remain at the current elevated levels or even rise further. From this point of view, the risk is that yield curves could continue to steepen, inflation breakevens expand (Figure 7), and swaption vols rise again (Figure 8).
Implications of sovereign credit risk crisis
- Increased general sovereign credit risk premium will have obvious market implications:It is clearly negative for cyclical and risky assets. Over the past year, the markets have become used to the idea that policymakers are not only all willing but they are also all powerful when it comes to crisis response. In so far as higher sovereign credit risk premium will constrain the ability of the policymakers to respond aggressively to future crisis via fiscal policy, at a minimum this calls into question the assertion that they remain all powerful. Higher sovereign risk premium also implies that crowding-out effects associated with more expansionary fiscal policy will be greater.
- Increased sovereign credit risk premium can lead to flight to quality where more-liquid government bond markets and countries with stronger fiscal positions will benefit at theexpense of less-liquid markets with weaker fiscal positions. The USD will benefit from the relative liquidity of the US Treasury markets. In addition, as we have been arguing since December, the USD will also benefit from the relative improvement of the US fiscal position in 2010.
- The JPY has had few friends over the past few months as investors have focused on Japan’s deteriorating fiscal story and its high debt overhang. This is why short JPY positions were very popular until the past few weeks. What would be the effect of a general increase in sovereign risk premium for the JPY? We believe such a development may turn out to be ironically JPY positive. This is because of Japan’s low dependence on foreign financing. One way to see this is by comparing JGB yields with Treasury and Bund yields, but adjusting for currency risk. By this measure, we find that both US and German sovereign risk premia have increased relative to that of Japan over the past year and their relative risk premia are near their highs of the past 10 years. Thus, it is not that the market is not paying enough attention to Japan’s fiscal challenge, but it appears that US and Germany’s fiscal problems have brought them much closer to Japan.
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on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 02:40
#220986
tyler
good work.
I do not agree though that Greece will spread the contagion. There are four countries at the center of this crisis and most euro bulls knew that day of reckoning to come.
But it is a win win either way for EURO.
There are two possible way this will play out:
1. 4 Nations (I will refrain calling them PIGS as it is derogatory) agree to EU Bailout in which case
there will dicsipline in their budget bringing down EU deficit from 6% today to 4.5% in 3-4 years. Advantage EURO!!
2. 4 Nations do not take EU bailout and they a re kicked out of euro area: Best possible solution and Advantage EURO as its deficit will again be less than 3%.
Now coming to the US side of the story: Deficit has not chance of being less than 10% for the next 10 years.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 08:10
#221030
There is as much chance that Greece gets kicked out of the Union as there is that California gets kicked out of US. Both will be bailed.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 10:24
#221097
It may seem like a remote possibility right now. But events have a way of getting out of hand in the long-term.
Think of it this way: what forces exist that could seriously dent a spiraling Eurozone crisis? The German backstop is going to do relatively little in the short term while creating much larger problems in the long term (remember what happened the last time Germany was forced into poverty for decades in order to pay off its much lazier neighbors)?
If the sovereign debt crisis continues to spiral, we could easily see large-scale riots in Europe, leading to looting, arson, and possibly even civil wars in some countries, which would dramatically increase the probability of parts of the EU splitting off.
China and the US are much less vulnerable to this type of breakdown simply because they are unified nations with extremely strong federal governments. Both are far more capable of stamping out local flare-ups internally than the disunited, bloated bureaucracy of the European "Union."
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:05
#221159
I would beg to differ on the part that China is much more unified. You have Turks (muslim & poor) in the west and you have Tibet in the south. Also the wealth is located almost entirely in the east creating much tension between the rural poor (see Turks) and the more afluent (Chinese).
The party will use more force to hold it together in China but nonetheless, if disaster strikes and GDP stops to rise (or better said, if wages stop to rise) and people think that the Communist Party will not be able to see them through then I believe that pandemonium might strike. Furthermore, the political union might brake down in Europe but that is not as important as the trade zone and that will last longer.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:47
#221467
The Han Chinese are the largest race and considered the true Chinese. It is the race of the CCP and are being actively settled in Muslim and Buddhist regions in order to dilute those populations and make more resources and land available to the Han. Any concerns that these groups will cause any economic damage to China are just not credible. The CCP does have a delicate balance to maintain but it is solely economic. The only way for the CCP to lose power is if the Han rebel. That's doubtful.
There's a better chance of seeing a revolution in the US than there is in China.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:52
#221473
Right on. When I was in China in the first half of 08, I kept hearing that 7-8% GDP growth was the minimum necessary to keep people from rioting in the streets. Without that level of growth (you say correctly, in wages, although obviously GDP is much easier to measure over there) the place was a tinderbox. That place is hardly unified - I spent some time in Yunnan, home of 55 different minority groups. Yeah, there are 600 million people in the cities with growing wages, but there are 700 million people still working the fields and living on a few bucks a day. Tinderbox I say.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:47
#221557
I remain deeply skeptical that anything other than local disorder can break out in the US or China.
China has centuries of practice in keeping the country together and has never hesitated to use excessive force against its own people to ensure order.
The US has strong local and state police as well as the National Guard and seems to be increasingly willing to use the military, too, if necessary (as they did in New Orleans). It's completely unconstitutional, but that won't stop them.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 13:40
#221242
The Feds will not kick CA out because (among other reasons) CA is highly valuable. And, other states quickly would line up to be kicked out next.
Consider the "services" of the Fed... war, empire and support of a predatory banking cartel. Consider the "services" of states and local governments... schools, infrastructure, law enforcement, fire protection, etc...
People in the US can differentiate between their country and an occupying government. There are quite a few states that would do perfectly well without the predatory overlord, thank you.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:00
#221335
Completely agree. You identify the anti-federalist/anti-empire undercurrents in this country exactly.
If the Feds (USA or Europe) expel one/any state for fiscal reasons, then dozens of states will line-up to be expelled VOLUNTARILY - for their own reasons/sovereignty.
From the state & citizen standpoint, the cost-benefit analysis of Federal government is a massive loser (and getting worse).
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 11:16
#221130
You've got the process reversed; the respective unions are the artificial constructs.
Co-operation, whether on an individual or collective scale, requires favorable future hopes & expectations in which to justify foregoing immediate satisfaction. If none appear to be forthcoming, then the social contract inevitably begins to fray and it's every man (and nation) for himself.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:10
#221162
Wait a tic here, this thread has given me an idea. Is there really a chance that all we have to do to seceed is to bankrupt our state? That's really too good to be true. It's too goddamned easy. And they will think it's their idea:
Feds: "You're broke, we're not bailing you out, we're THROWING you out."
State: "Please don't throw me in that briar patch!"
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:24
#221176
The problems we face today are a direct consequence of heading towards a post-industrial western society. With the end of monetary and economic sovereignty via open trade agreements which have one goal and one goal only; to level the income of worldwide citizenry. Consolidation of Europe into a megalithic bureaucratic monster while in the same time disregarding cultural and historic differences between European Nations + disregarding monetary and fiscal needs of sovereign European nations is what brought us to this situation. Reading Marx is never a mistake and that experience will tell you that the Order of Things is hierarchical. There are nations which are bourgeois and nations which are the proletariat. Post industrial age which was conceived due to experiences of WWII will ultimately lead to Global Equality, which is ultimately a lie. While the intentions of international business and political community my indeed be to prevent another WWII and atrocities committed in the name of expanding The Living Space ultimately those efforts will collapse due to Human Nature which is greed, self-preservation and in the cases of nations expansion. Disregarding the irrational side of things will once again create turmoil.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 13:40
#221251
It's amazing how ingrained and arbitrary the enforcement of heiarchies is. I was laughing at ATI/AMD and they are good guys compared to Intel/Nvidia. But anyway they came out with thier new DX11 low end chip nd die shrunk it from 55nm to 40 nm and kept the exact same 80 shader processors and sort of broke it's inter processor communiction (which might be good as it could provide more security since these things will make wonderful spyware processors using the frame buffer as a giant public pissing pool of code execution). But considering all the design considerations and such they could have easily gone to 120 or 160 shader processors. The manufacturing process is so complicated anyway it would have made no difference to cost, not took it anywhere signficant on it's thermal envelope, etc etc. It's just that it's the "low end" chip and thus has to represent a stupid price performance bar that funnels people to the "higher end".
It's just simply amazing how manipulative arbitrary and strange the world will become as it's more forcibly torn into competitive energies and strategic alignments and groupings that global corporate world will impose even when those groupings alignments and strategic sausage grindering of us into groups.
The typical war model that they use to control us now doesn't work on this big of a population as katherine austin pointed out. So it's pretty certain that the stupid georgia guidestone will be adhered to ADAMANTLY. It's got nothing to do with harmony with nature or our devestating effects on the plant. It just has to do with them being unable to enforce the damaging and self regulation and control (prisoner damaging prisoner ignoring guard). We broke thier control model and they are going to slaughter us. It's just that simple.
http://www.radioliberty.com/stones.htm
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 13:01
#221215
What makes you think that the bailed-out nations are going to decided that now they should have discipline in their budgets?
Once the shortfall is covered, the spending will begin anew -- after all "they bailed us out last time, right?".....
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 13:49
#221262
Money is debt. The banks create it the people who work pay it to who they give it to. They are not creating debt between external parties. It would make NO difference. There's plenty of out of work peope who would go to work to service the debt. They are simply playing a stupid head game with numbers and centralized debts that don't mean anything to anybody other than there is real debt intertwined with the ficticious debt in there. Theres not enough "false" drains to control it. Stupid art stupid easily manufacurable goodies and drugs work but a little too well as they are too hard to reverse the ill effects. If the drug companies EVER discover methods to get people off all the major super addictive drugs watch out. Every drug will be legal and expensive as hell. They'll just net you lke a wild animal and clean you up before you kill your entire family to buy your next fix.
on Mon, 02/08/2010 - 17:31
#222591
1. Will never happen. If it does, revolution in PIIGS countries. Their social spending isn't the problem. If you think it is, get ready to go for a ride as you will not understand what lies ahead. Everyone that thinks social spending is the problem, will be shocked and awed at what will unfold.
2. First it would destroy the Euro..but let's say it didn't. Then euro would probably rise as those countries are kicked off. Euro 2.50/1 dollar possible and Germany's exports don't implode? Yeah right. Anyone think the banks and corps of Euroland survive at such levels? Man would their debt load be expensive.
3. U.K. is bankrupt, eastern europe is bankrupt, so on and so forth.
But hey I can be wrong. We're all entitled to our own opinions.
It's just I don't see this as a social spending problem, I see it as a broken system that is crushing everything around it. Whatever doesn't feed the beast, gets destroyed by it. Of course if you feed it, it'll crush you anyways, because it's the feeding of the beast over the past 10-40 years that has led us to our current situation, and it was the skipping of a single meal that the beast unleashed its wrath.
Again we have seen no economic improvement in the US for over 40 years. The numbers just got bigger and more rigged. We just cut costs and pooled more at the top. That's it. The system has been breaking since Vietnam. You also might want to review why we got off the gold standard. Who forced us off. Why it was such a dirty deed to get someone to do your dirty work, then complain it cost too much.
Of course this was going to come to a head in 87, but greenspan discovered the magical derivative, whose ascension from relatively zero to 1.4 quadrillion provided the liquidity that was our fake economic expansion (but in real terms) that was basically the 90's. But once the beast of derivatives got too big, once it's spillover got too much, the system started breaking at the seams.
It's like we fed a beast because he could work harder and do more than the normal person. But then the beast got so big, he ate all the food and it did not matter whether or not he worked harder or better or got more done, he simply ate too much. That's derivatives in a nutshell. What it once provided, it now taketh away.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 02:41
#220987
and I also believe ECB is playing this crisis to dry out the egos of these countries. Nothing is out of control in my view.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 05:54
#221008
let us all know how much money you lose
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 03:21
#220993
It's not even a contagion issue--
it's a solvency issue.
The PIIGS have incurred more debt than they can service...
banks around the developed world are still largely insolvent, as well..
surviving on explicit and implicit guarantees and other government support and subsidy.
there's no one left to save any one else.
the drowning can't save each other.
and forget china, the ponzi scheme now being exposed by Chanos.
Look at the Swissie----CHF----their banks have big problems, and too big to save, but their economy depends on banking.
eventually the swissie will get crushed.
The dollar will rule for quite a while.
"In the Land of the Blind the One-eyed man is King."
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 10:09
#221087
I think I know the eye you're referring to. I remember seeing it in a triangle, hovering over a pyramid somewhere. Now where did I see that ...
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 10:54
#221113
+1
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:18
#221357
Dollar dominance is dependant on MUCH more than just reserve currency status (which is diminishing quickly, btw). The dollar's domestic status (being pulled alternately towards inflation/deflation) is at serious risk. If inflation or deflation truly take hold domestically, then the dollar's relative FX strength is a moot point and the game is over, imo.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 03:34
#220996
That is the point. Dollar is not even the one eyed king. It is more blind than one thinks.
"banks around the developed world are still largely insolvent, as well..
surviving on explicit and implicit guarantees and other government support and subsidy."
Am yet to see a FDIC style crisis in euroland inspite of all of the issue in greece and portugal.
What exactly is the issue here? The government not able to finance its deficit. In case of greece it is 54 bn in June. That is puny amount but ECB will use that to bring these 4 countries into line and once and for all close down the issue of peripheral countries issue plaguing the EURO.
Post that the attention turns to US where there is not even a willingness to accept that there is deficit issue that needs to be cut down.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 03:42
#220997
SO BAILOUTS ARE GOING TO BE THE ANSWER TO EVERY CRISIS THAT OCCURS. SOUNDS GOOD. THE RALLY CONTINUES MONDAY. THE NEWS THAT THE MARKET WILL SEE IS "EU BAILOUTS GREECE". DOW UP 300 POINTS.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 11:49
#221149
OK, I'll take the other side of this trade!
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 19:01
#221567
Nothing says "I have a single digit IQ" like all caps.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 05:16
#221005
PIIGS = Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece, Spain.
It's not in the ZH glossary, and I think it should be....
... with a note that some people are finding it an offensive acronym (is that why it's not there??).
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 08:23
#221032
Perhaps GIIPs is the more accurate, and less offensive, acronym?
The world at large is in a very precarious position, and the implosion of this house of cards cannot be modeled. Chaos theory rules the day, and all we can do is watch it unfold and try to do the best we can to plan, but be ready to react quickly to a rapidly changing landscape.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 09:08
#221046
How about SPIIG? Or is that even more offensive?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 09:18
#221051
GIPSI'S. And I pissed myself laughing.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 11:10
#221125
Or even GIIPSI's.
"Hide your kids; the GIIPISI's are coming!"
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 11:11
#221126
Oh, damn! Looks like Anonymous and I thought of that at exactly the same time. LOL.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 10:20
#221096
GIPSI -- that shouldn't offend anyone.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 11:51
#221152
Agreed. The beauty of it all is that nature is toying with the human race and this situation is already absolutely pre-programmed to evolve the way she wants it to. Watching it unfold, watching "leaders" and central bankers who think they can exercise control over this situations is hilarious. They don't know that the outcome is already determined, they are just unconscious players in the greater game helping it unfold.
Watch and learn.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:42
#221192
No way back to the strange attractor,
system has been perturbed too much to get back
in proper orbit.
Fractal currencies have infinite number
but zero value..
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 13:05
#221220
Overextended Assholes Whose Financial Irresponsibility Has Put Their Citizens' Financial Lives At Risk
OAWFIHPTCFLAR - it's not cute, it doesn't spell any words, but it defines what they are
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 09:34
#221060
While you're at it, please also make this as an addition to the ZH Glossary:
Dork--An annoying twit that takes offense at acronyms like PIIGS.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 11:00
#221122
Dork is a whale penis.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 11:30
#221139
Dan you swine.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 09:43
#221067
We just need Morocco to show signs of distress and then we can call them GIIMPS.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 11:51
#221151
Maybe Monaco, to continue the EU theme.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:38
#221189
If PIIGS is offensive, lets change it
to SigIp. Sounds militaristic,but when WWIII
starts, it will fit ....
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 05:53
#221007
The ratings agencies responsible for intentionally misrepresenting the credit worthiness of CDOs, thereby, bankrupting much of the developed world vis a vis required bailouts of insolvent money center banks are now leading the charge to downgrade sovereign debt. Sovereign debt CDS are being utilized by the globalists to torpedo the financial systems of developed nations and accelerate the collapse of the obsolete nation state paradigm in order to make way for global government directed by the IMF/BIS/FSB.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:45
#221194
You fuckin ruined my weekend.....
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 06:13
#221009
If Greece was to default on her debt the banks of the country will collapse immediately. At that event their will be no way for the government to save the depositors of the banks since will not be able to print or borrow money. The implications to the credit markets for such an event will be enormous since no bank will want to lend to any bank in Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Spain and maybe others. Since this will be the first time since the crisis began in 2007 that depositors lost money it will cause a panic and it is very likely that there will be an immediate run on the banks of Portugal, Italy, Spain and Ireland at a time when the countries themselves are unable to raise capital
http://israelfinancialexpert.blogspot.com/2010/02/coming-euro-collapse-h...
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 06:08
#221010
You also need to factor in the effects of private bank exposure to non-Euro economies. In my view the real risk is in the Eastern European, non Euro currencies.
Greece for example has a very high level of bank lending to Eastern European countries and Turkey. German and Austrian banks have immense levels of lending to Eastern Europe. I read somewhere that Austrian banks have lent an amount equivalent to 120% of Austria's GDP to Eastern Europeans. Much of this lending was in Euros, so declines in Eastern European currencies raise the servicing burden for local borrowers who therefore default in ever greater numbers. This was the situation in SE Asia in 1997. Most of the corporate borrowing was denominated in dollars as most of these countries had fixed exchange rates against the dollar so the risk was seen as low. When the pegs collapsed entire industries were incapable of earning enough local currency to pay a dollar denominated debt even without the accompanying collapse in local demand.
Its not too hard to see a scenario whereby crisis in Greece forces a selling of assets or calling in of loans to these already vulnerable Eastern European countries which causes a secondary currency crisis in those nations and a race to the exits.
Having lived through the Asian Economic crisis the situation looks dangerously similar
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 09:24
#221053
very interesting, makes a lot of sense...I had same issue about East Europe debts and EU banks as you expressed adn surprised it was not raised in this article.....who will be Malayasia in this case? And the issue that Europe is not only region with the flu this time...
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 13:13
#221225
Excellent points. As I remarked earlier, this is a global house of cards, or dominoes if you prefer ( I do love those youtube vids of thousands of dominoes in colorful themes- maybe the next time the kids can choose Dante's Inferno ), and it is unknowable how the implosion will unfold, exactly. Only that it will.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:57
#221566
Exactly.
In the best case, a few of the peripheral nations of Europe implode, teaching the world an important lesson in belt-tightening and curbing your debt, but is halted before it brings down the EU.
In the worst case, it leads to a full-on EU implosion that takes the US and China down with it.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 06:33
#221015
yes - and the FX swap lines extended by the fed have ended as of Feb 1, 2010. No more free USD liquidity - ya'll are on your own now - good luck!!
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 07:44
#221025
Fresbee's ideas seem likely to me: Either take a painful ECB bailout/austerity program or on xx-xx-xxxx date you will be expelled from the EMU, at which point you will need to call the IMF for help. I can see all of them taking the deal; most could'nt even begin to print their own currency, nevermind facing the IMF's wrathful programs. No matter what happens, the Greek civil servants and their pensioners are going to take a nifty haircut and will respond with strikes; unemployment will rise precipitously.
There will be no utter collapse in Greece or any of the others; the CDS's this would trigger would be the very definition of "systemic risk". The central bankers of the world would unite to stop this one cold, China included.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 08:08
#221029
There is as much chance that countries will start getting kicked out of the EU as there is that states will secede from the Union in USA. You would have to take out at least four weak sisters of Europe and that doesn't leave much of a union,does it?
The EU has no leverage on Greece, and everone knows it. Greece will give lip service to austerity, get a bailout, and go on exactly as before. Wash, rinse, repeat.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 08:31
#221034
till now that it. But that is exactly what ECB is doing isnt it? Letting Greece that there is not life outside of EU. Once this problem is solved, my understanding is that euro will be known more for its strict fiscal discipline and hence worthy alternative to the dollar than as a result of dollar carry..
If there any place where we can find state wise deficit of US? and make a like to like comparison to EU? EU blended deficit is 6%.
There is only one risk to EURO and that is if german shift from this smooth lil program called EURO. There is really no other risk....Greece needs 54 bn..even 10 times that can be easily provided by ECB ...
50 times that is deficit that US is running.....
Greece is still not had bank failure which kind of gives some credibility that things are not as bad as media makes it out to be. In worst case, yes thr could be a bank run as the poster above said...but then so can in UK and US who are far worse situation.
People talk of Greece data duplicity. I wish someone could point to the blatant lies FED is telling the world as it buys its own debt through the london route which is being faked to be indirect route.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 08:35
#221035
Greece is not the only EU problem. There are more. Spain has similar problems and their nominal budget deficit is far larger than the Greek one. The point is clear: Dubai and Greece are not isolated problems, the debt problem is going to spread worldwide. Credit contraction = defaults rising. The weak ones with the largest deficits are going to drop first.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:58
#221212
Hello Tough--
You're wrong...
cite me one example of a currency peg or peg regime that endured.
Germany has its internal overappreciated currency area-the former East Germany (just as we have California)
The Germans can't carry the PIIGS and former East Germany on their backs, so the PIIGS will be cut loose and the Deutsche Mark will return..the timing (and the nature of the Euro-fig leaf) are the only remaining issues.
I look for a major world conflict as the leading possibility...unless the terrorists strike on domestic soil.
Your friends Palin and McCain would attack Iran...it looks like Obama will do something in Pakistan.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 13:04
#221218
I agree with you on one thing; if anyone bails on the EU it will be Germany. The strong have everything to lose in a bailout scenario and the weak have everything to gain.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:59
#221333
Agreed, the CB's will unite, but as Simon Johnson
stated, we are running out of bullets...
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 08:17
#221031
I find the situation of the rating agencies to be one of particular interest....
Rating agencies gained a lot of trust over many years in that the largest and most conservative sources of money were reliant on them....
Large conservative sources ....in lieu of due diligence capabilities on every debt obligation purchased....thye became reliant on the rating agencies guidance....
This process was ok until rating agencies compromised themselves via financial conflicts of interest....
And to this day ....not one rating agency has been held accountable for hundrds of $billions in losses to the unsuspecting....
And to this day....know that they will be in business as usual with a few minor law changes....and still not one business group or individual has been held accountable in any way....
.....................................
What really needs to take place is a type of structural reform such that there will never be such conflicts of interest ever again......however this is somewhat of a "so what"....without us...what debt will you buy ....where are you going to get the information.....
...................................
Which leads to this....
The securties market needs to be:
1) fully defragmented....seamless access....no outside matching or side markets of any kind....
2) all information needs to be wiki format....fact based
instead of the rating agency model....
3) fully electronic....all out in the open....direct access
ecn based.....designed for retail and non retail.....
4) regulated electronically....not by the SEC.....
5) lower cost via lower transaction costs ....no taxes of any kind....first come first served....
6) Short sales no uptick rule....but size limits ....and constrained by outstanding quantity.....via electronic tag....
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:47
#221314
Structural reform is not likely until ratings agencies are prosecuted to deal with the problems you identify: "not one rating agency has been held accountable for hundrds of $billions in losses to the unsuspecting...not one business group or individual has been held accountable in any way."
Teddy Roosevelt prosecuted the lawbreakers and reformed the system. We need a TR-like leader with the will and strength to prosecute and reform the corrupt financial system. Unfortunately, we don't have TR, we have PR...reform spin...reform lite...reform sound and fury signifying nothing.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 08:59
#221040
So, much sovereign debt with various countries is a bit like say big banks in US, some claimed they were above this whole crisis because they didn't do: XXX but then we find they did y, and z and they aren't any better. Surprise this piece didn't say anything about Europe's other problems like banks and east Europe, emerging nations.
It seems that there is global rush to out-Japan, Japan, is any country immune? Norway? So Japan has internal demographics against it, rest of world has whole world of investors daily whims against them.
Given this unprecedented global shifting of some of the private market collapses to sovereign debt and our incredible global interconnectedness of financial market, investments, does anything in history give us an indication on how this ends? Again, like US banks/investment houses, it seems likely that global politics could determine which countries get taken down by global investors, they can essentially "naked short" their competition (see GSAc, Lehman) and convince IMF to not bailout out certain ones, or for IMF to only help once stock/bondholders (countries' population) has been wiped out while other countries get true bailout (whole world takes a hit for their defaults).
In spite of this bailouts going viral globally and the greatest fears of fiscal conservatives of the world, it still seems most govts do not have ability to issue new sovereign debt or to print currency in sufficient quantities anywhere near covering the losses of defaults of households and business debts; Steven Keen makes a good argument for govt's inability to cover such large losses.
Even if you do not agree and think we are all going the way of Zimbabwe, remember they hyper-inflated their currency relative to world currencies to basically default on foreign debts (taking out all out all other internal debt along the way), so what happens if all countries QE n such at the same time and no currency/debt worth less or more than another countries?
I know I may get some funny answers to my questions and some gold bugs comments, if anyone bothers to respond, but really, I also do not think I have seen a reasoned teasing out of this in anything I've read....and I do think it is more involved than just buy gold.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 09:26
#221054
Given this unprecedented global shifting of some of the private market collapses to sovereign debt and our incredible global interconnectedness of financial market, investments, does anything in history give us an indication on how this ends?
*
Watch a vide of an atomic bomb explosion. for a while, you see the houses and trees and everything else getting blown over (to the right) as the compression wave hits. think of this as the inflation caused by credit expansion. then there's a brief moment of calm. then, you see everything getting blow over to the left as the vacuum is filled and the wave reverses. This is deflation. and its going to be much more severe that almost anyone can imagine.
gold will fall, but not as much as other kinds of assets. its a relative 'safe haven' but it won't save you. anyone in debt gets wiped out as incomes decline. income declines and falling cash available to the private economy wipe out all the debts and rents and bonds that do not enjoy "government" support.
expect a system failure in the private economy and a massive response by more tightly aligned and integrated global government. the planet can't tolerate a global middle class. think of this as a massive "bug bomb" - where the infestation (private capital) is wiped out with a devastating credit contraction.
Long term, there is of course no way for governments to survive without a healthy private economy. but that's a whole 'nother day of reckoning, and is at least 10 years from today. better to focus on the crisis de jour.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 13:07
#221222
like the inflation, deflation analogy...ouch....did you know when water trapped in concrete freezes it expands and damages concrete, but when concrete warms back up, ice expands as it warms, and that expanding ice, just prior to it melting again, apparently does more damage to concrete than initial expansion from water freezing...and strangely, the fix to this frozen water expansion problem is to introduce a bunch of tiny bubbles in the concrete when it is set, (via essentially sudsy soap) so the voids left over from said bubbles provide an easy path for the ice to expand to, without further damaging concrete....I'm sure there's a financial analogy in there some where...
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 09:47
#221056
You raise some very relevant questions.
Based on the statements coming out of the G-20, IMF and the newly constituted FSB, rolling sovereign debt defaults represent the next stage of the financial crises, thereby, providing the necessary justification for the implementation of a single global currency (SDRs) administered by the IMF/BIS/FSB gang.
Future IMF bailouts will eventually require repayment in SDRs combined with austerity measures including adoption of mandatory carbon cap and trade regulations and some form of Tobin tax. Such austerity measures will be justified on the basis of the URGENT need to reverse climate change and compensate underdeveloped nations with SDR credits in exchange for their agreement to significantly curtail future economic growth.
At Copenhagen, Soros proposed that developed nations agree to tranfer their IMF issued SDR allotments to underdeveloped nations in exchange for caps on carbon emissions. Meanwhile the IMF has embarked on a major PR campaign to recast itself as a kinder, gentler headquarters for "sustainable" economic development, financial reform and environmental responsibility.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 10:41
#221106
very interesting, thanks...and if your predictions are right, I say...yuk.
Self-determiantion seems a basic right that all peoples should have and agitate for, sovereign countries don't always deliver (especially for ethnic, religious minorities, and poor), but how much worse if we further lose the little control we have over our home countries to more complicated global financial controls.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:33
#221184
way, way, way worse.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 09:32
#221057
The way this ends is with a Global Millenial Jubilee in which all debts are forgiven and the system can start again with a much more moderate level of skim from the cream.
Thus ensues about a thousand years of peace and tremendous worldwide productivity.
Oh wait, that's the dream scenario.
I forgot this is planet suXorZ, therefore, incompetant idiots will make the decisions, all of them bad, ending in worldwide riots, starvation, civilization collapse, and nuclear terrorism.
Darn.
-MobBarley
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 13:09
#221223
nice try Mob...you had me going there for a bit...by the way, wouldn't Mob Barley be a great punk rock band name...
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 10:04
#221083
"In spite of this bailouts going viral globally and the greatest fears of fiscal conservatives of the world, it still seems most govts do not have ability to issue new sovereign debt or to print currency in sufficient quantities anywhere near covering the losses of defaults of households and business debts."
I wonder how often people forget that ASSET DEFLATION and MONETARY DEFLATION are two different things. ASSET DEFLATION does not impact money aggregates unless there are bank failures where deposits are wiped out.
This is why the current situation is different from the Great Depression. There is no MONETARY deflation this time.
This is why all the newly printed money is so explosive, even if banks aren't lending. Just one match (like commodity prices jumping, or Chinese selling US$-denominated assets to combat their home-grown inflation) can blow the whole system up. Equally, popular realization that the Fed basically has rubbish on its balance sheet is extremely dangerous.
The Fed fears political pressure for two reasons:
1. They may be forced to force banks to lend.
2. They may be forced to disclose true quality of their assets.
Therefore, while their promises of doom and gloom in case the audit is done (i.e. the truth comes out) are fear-mongering, they are not completely baseless.
"Think of everything we've accomplished, man. Out these windows, we will view the collapse of financial history. One step closer to economic equilibrium."
Disclosure: numerous US$ liabilities.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 10:36
#221104
what do you say to the arguments of Steven Keen and his ilk...that debt bubble and consequent debt defaults in household and private businesses dwarf what the govts are doing? how does this play out?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:24
#221179
Falling asset prices do not change money supply.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:24
#221291
It doesn't matter how much money there is. It is the velocity of money and credit expansion that are altered during a deflationary collapse.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:01
#221339
Nothing matters if the Fed can't withdraw the newly created liquidity. Markets will discount 10 years of inflation in 1 week.
That's why, according to Trichet, just discussing such things is "extremely counter-productive".
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 10:59
#221118
There is HUGE monetary deflation coming up. There is no money, there is only credit. And credit can disappear. Without any new loans being made, just the downpayment of all the outstanding credit is contracting the money supply. The threat of debt defaults is for sure a deflationary event.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:52
#221204
I agree except for one:
"The threat of debt defaults is for sure a deflationary event."
It's debt defaults which are a deflationary event, not the "threat".
Bernanke has prevented TBTF failures and defeated deflation in the first round, but it's coming back with vengeance. You'll be amazed how now-inflation-hawks will urge him to print, print, print. And that's what he'll do.
There are still many people to be wiped out before the greenbuck capitulates.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 10:10
#221088
P.S.
Imho, ZH is financial terrorism in disguise.
That's what I like about it.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 10:42
#221108
why do you think TD picked TD-identity
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 11:42
#221146
That's the funny thing. Eventually those of us that make a stand to try and correct all of this and turn the ship around will be labeled as terrorist, and possibly hunted as such. American Revolution, Part Duex.
Similar to the original revolutionist, we will only be painted in history as patriots if we are successful.
Now that I think about it, it's not so funny.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:16
#221168
WHATTTTT??
If you want to talk about "financial terrorism", talk about the Federal Reserve, who owns the FED, and the policies that have allowed this historic THEFT of the American taxpayers in BROAD DAYLIGHT!!
ZH is merely brave enough to do a little digging---it's called "responsible journalism" and it is completely lacking in the mainstream media---perhaps this unfamiliarity is why you are at a loss to describe ZH.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:36
#221303
When a terrorist group is big and strong enough, it's called "government".
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:54
#221202
Judging from history, I would say that human behavior in panic situations is dominated by herd mentality. And right now the herd is very skittish. Once the dominos start to fall, people will be desperate for a place to store what wealth they have remaining.
If I had to predict, I would say you will see huge volatility in the various currencies as people try to gauge which country other people are choosing as the final winner. People will rush into one, causing it to spike, but then see that another seems to be attracting more attention and bail on the first. Finally, once the perception is created that a specific currency is in high demand and short supply, a critical mass of investors will dump into it, and viola, you have the new world reserve currency and eventually the next dominant superpower. China seems a likely candidate - it may not matter if they are as insolvent as everyone else, the perception that they are ascending may be all it takes.
Just my guess - you can't predict the future, but some aspects of human behavior are, shall we say, unsurprising.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 13:14
#221227
yes, I can totally see that happening, just wonder how much insiders will be able to manipulate, how much typical coordination of elite insiders may unravel into cut-throat financial war and as a consequence, how out of control (elite control) herd will get...
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:56
#221562
There is an old saying that goes something like "when elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers". I suspect we are only seeing glimpses of a titanic struggle being played by the elite of each country.
Being somewhat curious/paranoid/suspicious by nature (I didn't read the label and downed the whole bottle of red pills) I try to pick up clues and guess the tide of the larger struggle. I keep coming back to China. China has amassed large quantities of surplus commodities. They have focused on technical education rather than 'communications', women's studies, and various cultural studies which have value but limited application to growing economies. They have built up their manufacturing base and have their best minds attending the best colleges and working in key industries around the world. They are buying gold.
They have also, if I understand correctly, been pumping up liquidity worldwide, as well as potentially buying US Treasuries under the table. When the time is right, they pull back liquidity and dump the under-the-table treasuries to start the ball rolling (no smoking gun, the US can't blame them for a direct economic attack). As the treasury market implodes, they sell their above-the-table holdings (because, well, everyone else is) albeit at a loss, to further kill the market.
At a key point, they de-peg their currency from the dollar, then focus on supplying what remains of the world's economies with manufactured goods - following in the footsteps of the US ascendancy to dominance. A long-term plan from a country that thinks long-term.
Not that I really believe I have somehow glimpsed the big picture - I just like to ponder why that big elephant foot is getting closer and closer...
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:16
#221355
It is more involved than just buy gold.
But whatever that is, I have no idea..
So I buy gold, no counterparty risk.
History is full of examples of the gold strategy
working, about the only fact that comforts me these
days....
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 09:07
#221043
I'll Take Crisis For $800, Alex.
"The possibility of contagion of the Greek crisis may not end with Spain."
What is "Absolutely not"?
Feb. 7 (Bloomberg) -- Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner said the U.S. is in no danger of losing its Aaa debt rating even though the Obama administration has predicted a $1.6 trillion budget deficit in 2010.
“Absolutely not,” Geithner said, when asked in an ABC News interview broadcast today whether a downgrade is a concern. “That will never happen to this country.”
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 11:01
#221123
Of course not. The first one at Moody's hinting at such a possibility, can find himself another job.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:11
#221165
Yip, the whole financial system is rigged and manipulated go the US way.
A good example is the gold price which is being set in a casino environment by people behind computer screens claiming that their piece of paper is "as good as the real stuff".
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:36
#221187
Wow, with his credibility level, he just issued the kiss of death there.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 13:16
#221232
heard it all before:
house prices will never go down nationally
money markets will never break buck
FDIC will never be insolvent
....
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 09:30
#221055
The game is over. The western world is insolvent. Throwing more borrowed money at the problem will only exacerbate the pain.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 09:32
#221058
so are we back to square one, talking about derivatives and counter parties again? when is this party going to end? that is the question? how long can they keep this thing together and the sheep fooled? how long? oh don't worry about it mr anon. you are being negative. our retirement funds are safe. the government will never allow anything to happen to our financial system.....oh sure....sure no problem. i have faith. oh yeh i have lots of faith....
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 10:08
#221085
Who will bailout who? All countries are in debt impossible to pay off, even the best countries like Germany has around 61% GDP of debt. But don't worry all goverments are working in unison now, they will print away our problems and savings. There is also possibility to ask Martians to lend us so money. Cumulative r-square, PC-1, PC-2 and other bullshit, what they want to show everybody knows for a long time!
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 10:44
#221109
synthetics on Mars securitizations...I like it...that'll do it..party on...
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 10:18
#221093
A lot of strongly held, conflicting opinions.
Remember, anything can happen as we (i.e. the entire world) has only been in a somewhat, similar position once (1930's). However, socially, economically, and psychologically, we (and the rest of the world) are very different today.
Americans (and many others) were much more stoic, and independent for basic life necessities (many had small food gardens, knew how to hunt and fish, etc.). Now, in many countries, including the US, the gov't is expected to provide for everyone. With that responsibility comes authority, which the gov'ts WILL use.
The Great Depression was ended by(caused?) a world war. However, even a massive war (back then) could not end civilization (no nucs). Now many countries could, with one button push, devastate entire regions or the entire world.
Just a couple of reasons why it is hard to predict exactly what will happen. I feel that something we are not discussing (or expecting) will happen because we are in uncharted territory and we really can't quite grasp what we are facing.
I will make one prediction. The US will not have deficits as currently predicted by the recent budget unless the nature of our society changes. Why? Do the math. With interest rates of only 5%, a $20T national debt requires $1T of interest payments. That is almost half of all federal tax revenue. At 10%, it requires almost all tax revenue to service debt. Can't happen in free market.
No free market, no free country.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:40
#221191
One of the big differences with 1930 is, that the whole western world is now gorged with debt. In 1930 there was a stable currency backed by gold, now we have credit backed by debt.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 13:18
#221237
less govt/sovereign debt then too...
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 10:29
#221099
Why would the ECB not resort to the same sort of asset-price (and thereby anti-debt deflation) tools as the Treserve, BOJ, etc. such as quantitiative easing (and central bank balance sheet inflation), ZIRP and debt guaranties? After all, I would guess that austerity measures - while a solution to repair the balance sheet - are as undesirable in the PIIGS as they are here in the US of A. Not to mention that the reduction in spending may have the further effect of deepening recession by cutting overall spending.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 10:30
#221100
Dan22 wrote "If Greece was to default on her debt the banks of the country will collapse immediately" - I disagree - the Greek banks still can get liquidity from the ECB. The worst that could happen is Greece would declare a coupon holiday - a stop on the exchequer. The coupons would then be accrued until Greece was in a position to pay again. There is no way for Sovereign like Greece to truly go bankrupt, she has too many assets that could be sold or used as collateral - roads, railways, ports and government real estate. Of course, this may be problematic for a socialist government ... but that's what this crisis means - an end to the socialist boon-doggle. Perhaps the Generals will have to take over for a while (again).
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 10:31
#221101
Never underestimate the replacement power of equities in an inflationary (full printing press mode) spiral. Inflate or die = Zimbabwe
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 10:34
#221102
Inflate AND die.
But stay in power till dead.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 10:34
#221103
THERE IS LIFE,
THERE IS DEATH,
AND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN EITHER ONE,
IS ONE SINGLE BREATH.
-Kings X
The endgame we now approach has been in the cards for many a long year, since well before many of us were even born.
It's inevitability is quite certain, and it is a very near thing.
The hour grows late.
The pieces are in motion.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:32
#221549
Truth.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 10:42
#221107
Greece, if I recall accounts for about 2% of the Euro. Amazing the impact it is having. The US is in as bad a fiscal shape. California, the world's 7th largest economy is even worse.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 11:01
#221124
I've often heard that statistic of California, what rank would that leave the rest of US if we cut California out of our union?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 10:50
#221110
I've got contagion for you - try this on for size:
1. 10, 20, 50 thousand years after wiping out practically all European mega-fauna, emigrants 'discover' a completely undeveloped continent (unintentionally) held in preservation by indigenous peoples.
2. Up to a mere 120 years ago, until the western frontier was 'closed', the raw, untamed land and plentiful natural resources fueled an incredible period of human history which saw millions upon millions of people, of all nationalities & cultures, move thousands of miles to engage in the process of transforming the very environment upon which we currently reside.
In fact, the abundance of natural resources was so great that it was only around 1973 that the most precious resource of all, the one that leads countries to fight extended global, foreign wars, only began to peak within the lower 48 states.
3. Concurrent with the realization of domestic peak oil, and that we were now subject to the vicissitudes of imported oil (supply & price), was the recognition that in the face of global wage arbitrage, the US could no longer maintain its fantasy position enjoyed since the end of WWII.
4. As Carter learned much to his chagrin, 'Mericans didn't really like anyone telling them about #3. So Reagan, not nearly being the dunce he is made out to be, in order to substitute for the effects of lower real-incomes and mask the reality the future held for the USA, made certain decisions (there were eagerly approved by the masses) that replaced production with (financial) speculation.
And so began the long, long process by which the USA was transformed from a balanced economy to one completely & utterly focused on the process of credit-leveraged asset-inflation in order to instill an illusion of wealth (ie the 'wealth effect') to stimulate consumer spending activity.
5. We are now at the end of the ponzi era. Th PTB knew back in 1980 that it couldn't last for long, but as Keynes said, in the long run we're all dead. In case anyone is wondering, a significant number of people dating from that era are indeed "dead". But we, the living, must deal with the aftermath.
What we have is a tapped out environment, 300m+ individuals grouped into 4 major, distinct groups that never integrated, and are in fact capable of taking out their frustrations on those perceived as 'other'. Many of those 'others' (from all 4 groups) are dependent on public assistance for their very sustenance.
But public assistance is dependent on economic output, which as described above, is no longer extant in any form, production and/or consumption. Thus, we print. Oh, yes dear reader, don't make the mistake of thinking the Fed is independent and/or owned by foreign interests. Sure it is. But all of those foreign/domestic banks, seeing that they are insolvent, could/should be nationalized. In reality, fed.gov uses the Fed (and Fannie/Freddi as well) to mask that it is actually the driving force behind currency debasement. (And are in fact the very magicians holding up what remains of our illusionary world.)
So here we are; we have no way forward. Whatever chance(s) we had of making important technological discoveries & advances have evaporated with the very investment capital now being spent to satisfy current consumption. In ancient times, this was called 'eating your seed corn'.
So, Leo and whoever else hold the bull perspective, good luck.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 11:00
#221120
I fear that your 30,000 foot view is correct.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 11:26
#221135
Ned...OT from this thread, but am curious what you think Rakoff is going to tell the SEC in regards to their new settlement, which seems to be exactly as the previous except for another 117 million (33 million to 150 million). thanks.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:35
#221186
Can't read this from this distance. If I had to guess, Cuomo's suit may have taken the heat off Rakoff in a sense - penalizing the company, shareholders and taxpayers for the sins of its officers never made much sense to begin with, hence his refusal to accept the original settlement, to require the case to go to trial? He may be willing to settle for a big fine if he thinks the big fish are going into the frying pan, justice will be done in a different forum, and thus the "package" makes sense to simply close this chapter and move on. This may be true if Judge Rakoff thought the original settlement was simply too light a penalty in light of the allegations - not sure - and was never really concerned about penalizing the wrong parties, although I thought he made it pretty clear at the time he thought the wrong parties were getting sanctioned, namely the shareholders and the taxpayer.
The Cuomo fact allegations, making Paulson and Bernanke look like unwitting dupes, has me utterly perplexed. There are 2 paths there: one, Cuomo is right, and everyone who thought Paulson and Bernanke strong armed Lewis into the ML deal (and especially discouraged the exercise of the MAC clause and any disclosure that might have queered the deal) were dead wrong (I don't believe that, especially given the public statements about P&B's role that have never been disputed), or Cuomo is strategically alleging the politically safe fact set, one that does not point fingers at the obvious (complicity of Paulson and Bernanke) so that Lewis is forced to realize he is all alone and had better start singing the high notes to make a compelling case against The Hammer and The Epson Printer.
I think this is fascinating and we'll see how it turns out.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:52
#221206
Ned...firstly, thanks very much for sharing your thoughts....your insights are always excellent and it is most helpful for those of us without your experience in the law.
I agree with your thought that P'son/B'nanke were initimately and knowingly involved... i'm fascinated by the chess move, if you will, of Lewis being in the position of taking it all by himself or singing out against p'son/bernanke.
if there is no fear of jail time on Lewis' part, he may be more likely to fall on the sword. then again, maybe he decides to fight if he feels wronged by p'son/b'nanke.
it will be very interesting as you have said. i'll look forward to your commentary as this evolves. again, thank you for taking the time to share your wisdom!
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:59
#221213
A third option (long shot) is that because Lewis knows the importance of his situation, he takes the high road to redeem himself to future historians, despite any personal consequences.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 13:44
#221256
Right now, it is a civil case only, with lots of precious money at stake, the loss of which Lewis may regard with even greater horror than a footnote in history. Remember, the burden of proof is lower in a civil case, and that's how OJ finally paid for his crime.
This may turn out to be rough justice, kind of like getting Al Capone for income tax evasion. Lewis, though, was played, and he is not the only one who should pay.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 13:46
#221260
I don't think it takes a lawyer to try to read these tea leaves. If it were all about the law, Denninger would not be complaining about the absence of the cops. More like a study in power, and how it distorts reality, including the legal system. Anyone can play!
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:57
#221211
B9K9 is spot on..
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 11:17
#221131
Very nice synopsis.
One not-so-small correction though.
The process of financial de-regulation that has led us to ruin actually began during the Carter Administration, not Reagan's.
The Depository Institutions Deregulation and Monetary Control Act (DIDMCA) was legislated in 1979 and passed into law on March 28, 1980.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 11:57
#221154
The motivation for passing DIDMCA was ostensibly for a 'good' purpose ie increasing home ownership by making them more affordable via the availability of credit. (Of course, we all know that it merely caused a rise in home prices, thereby achieving exactly nothing.) However, this was before all financial rules & regulations were cynically manipulated to achieve one over-reaching goal: increased debt-leverage, thus asset inflation, thus the illusion of 'wealth'.
Carter may have passed it, but he was pretty clueless as to realpolitik. It took the no-nonsense Reagan administration to realize the gift they had been given by that dupe. That it could be implemented (to its fullest, unintentional extent) & utilized under cover of winning the Cold war was just frosting on the cake.
Once people got a taste of that powerful drug called 'riches', they of course clamored for more. And that's what got us to where we are today - the ultimate losers left holding the bag.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:28
#221177
DIDMCA was the product of an overwhelmingly Democratic congress, eagerly signed into law by Carter.
DIDMCA did not only liberalize mortage lending. Far more importantly, it de-regulated deposit interest rates by eliminating Regulation Q, thus introducing "moral hazard" to insured deposit gathering.
In my book, Carter deserves full blame for starting the financial de-regulation process.
Reagan deserves full blame for using de-regulation to initiate a 25 year credit bubble.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 11:31
#221142
+1 for mega-fauna
going to start drinking now
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 11:38
#221145
Excellent post B9K9.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:11
#221421
Well said, B9K9.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 11:20
#221133
Well, at least we don't have Dubai to worry about anymore.
That was fixed, right????
**************************
Tim Geithner out with strong statements this a.m. about USA in a Bloomberg headline
"Geithner Says U.S. Will ‘Never’ Lose Its Aaa Debt Rating"
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 11:26
#221136
Yes, I believe he is correct.
The US Government will always be able to find (or coerce) a rating agency that will rate Treasury paper as AAA.
In terms of the problems these gangsters will be facing, this one is very minor and easily solved.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 11:30
#221137
agree with your assessment.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:37
#221188
It's going to be like the (non-steroidal) home run record in baseball; there'll be an asterisk. US Credit Rating: Aaa*
That being said, a rose by any other name is still going to cost a few hundred pips.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 11:21
#221134
Ha, Eatingyourseedcorn.com ha!
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 11:30
#221141
Great article.
Japan may have reached its limit. Maybe they are
getting ready to throw in the towel on this
whole government stimulus bailout thing.
The USA and Germany aren't there yet but
they will be. I think Japan is exhausted.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 11:51
#221150
G7 Update
The entirely pointless G7 meeting this weekend only served to underline the fact that Europe is again entering a serious economic crisis.
http://baselinescenario.com/2010/02/07/europe-risks-another-global-depre...
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:12
#221167
It wasn't pointless at all. The IMF run the banking systems we have. It's just saying you're broke against facade 1 of the banking system and now you are under facade 2 rules. It will just be a system that has a front room and a back room and you're supposedly broke in the front room but not the back room. You're not broke anywhere but you just follow stupid rules and fake accounting that makes it look that way.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:55
#221208
going down....i caught that article this a.m. and readers should know that it was written by Simon Johnson and it is an outstanding summary of the european situation....extremely well worth the read.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 13:17
#221233
DEADHEAD-
You're right.
Simon Johnson is an unbiased observer and extremely sharp and knowledgeable.
The notion that the IMF bails out Eurozone---Germany and France!!!!!
The IMF is for bailing out countries like Panama, Argentina, Haiti...in a pinch Russia and Korea.
The idea that Euro will be bailed out by IMF is like saying a former partner at GS will be getting food stamps on 125th Street.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 13:46
#221259
Former partner at GS getting food stamps on 125th Street.
I can't wait to witness this...there is a God!
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:06
#221161
It's not a question of if the European countries will fail but when. I remember reading somewhere that if one nation in the EU drops the Euro then it'll definitely drop large percentages in one day.
But we're worse off because we have terrible policies like this one: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/fed-to-control-inflation-by-giving-away-more-money
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:16
#221169
and while we are viewing everything through the lense darkly, how long before someone thinks hitting the population reset button will also contribute to a permanent solution. ( think easily genetically mutated virus)
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:19
#221173
His mutt-ness is getting pretty close to 1.34, isn't he? Or is it a she---I am agnostic on the issue.
Where could his mutt-ness be headed next? Them mutt bounces are kinda smaller than dead cat bounces I tell ya, but we have to have one, or not? Contagion and all... Currencies are not stocks, or bonds, when they move---they move.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 13:00
#221210
EU contagion is a joke and a huge misdirection play. We infected the world with FRN's and with all kinds of financial WMD's. We have California (the 8th largest economy in world) and several other states (that eclispe the likes of Greece and Ireland) that are bankrupt. American's, look out the window...wake up.....soon the day will be upon us when those dollars come home to roost...we are at ground zero and I know it.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 13:13
#221226
Jefferson states above: Sovereign debt CDS are being utilized by the globalists to torpedo the financial systems of developed nations and accelerate the collapse of the obsolete nation state paradigm in order to make way for global government directed by the IMF/BIS/FSB.
I find that extremely credible. Regionalism was intended to be a transition to world government. The European Union is Orwell’s Eurasia; treaties binding Canada, the United States, Mexico and South America his Oceania; Japan and China the poltical center of Eastasia.
The working theory behind globalism is that impoverished, collectivized and frightened populations will find world government irresistible.
Paul Volcker on October 18, 1979 was quoted on page one of the New York Times: “The standard of living of the average American has to decline… I don’t think you can escape that.”
By 1993, Volcker had become the U.S. Chairman of the Trilateral Commission. The TLC was created by David Rockefeller, says Fed historian G. Edward Griffin, to coordinate the building of The New World Order in accordance with the Richard Gardner strategy: “An end run around national sovereignty, eroding it piece by piece.” Gardner, writing in The Hard Road to World Order, was an advisor to President Carter.
As to the merging of the regionals into global government, Volcker wrote in the Trilateral Commission’s annual report for 1993:
Interdependence is driving our countries toward convergence in areas once considered fully within the domestic purview. Some of these areas involve government regulatory policy, such as environmental standards, the fair treatment of workers, and taxation.
In 1992, the TLC released a report co-authored by Princeton-trained and former Harvard instructor, Toyoo Gyohten. At the time Gyohten was Chairman of the Board of the Bank of Tokyo; formerly he was in charge of the Japan Desk of the IMF and was Japan’s Minister of Finance for International Affairs. In the report, Regionalism in A Converging World, Gyohten explains that the real importance of “trade” agreements is the building of global government:
Regional trade arrangement should not be regarded as ends in themselves, but as supplements to global liberalization…. Regional arrangements provide models or building blocks for increased or strengthened globalism… Western Europe [the EU] represents regionalism in its truest form…The steps toward deepening [increasing the number of agreements] are dramatic and designed to be irreversible… A common currency… central bank… court and parliament—will have expanded powers…
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 13:17
#221236
Combine chaotic forex markets, increasingly choatic bond markets, turbulant commodity and stock markets, and some people must be getting killed. As they do, they have to sell, and things accelerate. On the other hand, the government steps in to smooth things out. Tricky.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 13:26
#221240
so I've been watching International House Hunters a lot lately (I know, pa-thet-ic) and can't believe how expensive real estate is, everywhere, Carribean (god, the Bahamas are way crazy expensive), So Am, Europe, Asia....it seems like the real estate bubbles in places like US, Spain, Australia, have leaked out to whole world....looks like horrible global real estate bubble...
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:52
#221402
+1
Prices have been climbing for almost a year in Canada... > $400K homes are selling in days with multiple offers!
"It can't happen here" seems to be the prevailing mentality... so many will be hit so hard when the SHsTF... I have no idea why so many refuse to see reality (greed over logic I suppose)!
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 13:31
#221245
FALLING DOMINOES:
The Euro Crisis means big cutbacks in consumtion there..
and slower US growth...
together...
much lower demand for Chinese exports...
big problem...feeds the Chanos hypothesis.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 13:33
#221247
CDS Margin Call...All Dominos, Please report to your standing area....
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 13:50
#221264
The major danger of ratings lies in the way that they can be arbitraged and the problem perhaps began with Basel II, which regulated how much capital a bank must hold dependent on the rating of the securities that it holds.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:00
#221273
I'll take "Contagion" for $200, Alex.
After Greece...
What is the United States?
http://www.businessinsider.com/niall-ferguson-us-finances-are-not-much-b...
Apres moi, le deluge.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:20
#221282
It's a long-running gambling game among a number of players:
1. When a player accumulates winnings he/she runs out and dissipates it, returning to the game to play with "House" money", except for one player, the "Lender".
2. The House borrows to keep the game going.
3. All the players are broke, except one which loaned winnings to the House; some are desperate, and the game doesn't seem like fun any more---atmosphre is getting tense.
4. But there are a lot of chips on the table, and finally the game is about to end; the House is worried and is going to shut it down and take the chips on the table so that it can repay the Lender.
5. One player has a gun, and it's not the Lender....the others and the House are unarmed.
Who will take the chips?
That one player with the gun is the U.S.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:25
#221545
A very comprehensive analysis by Niall Ferguson. Thanks. And since the news media seems big on acronyms and arranging initials into insults, i.e., PIIGS, I liked this comment which throws the insult back into our own court:
cramerisassmonkey
Niall is a smart chap. He whipped Krugman who is another Nobel prize winner like Hussein.
I'd say US and UK are in the same boat and represent 2 Us in stUUpid nations ( Spain, Turkey, UK, US, Portugal, Ireland & Dubai).
We had Lehman/CDO debacles in summer of 2008 and we have more sinister sovereign defaults by Greece leading the STUUPID nations( Spain, Turkey, UK, US, Portugal, Ireland & Dubai) or PIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Greece & Spain).
Lest we forget some of our own stupid states include - California, Florida, Illinois, Ohio, Michigan, North Carolina, and New Jersey. Just a starting roster and many municipalities are in bigger trouble.
BTW - anyone know what happened to all bad debt bombs from fall of 2008? Debts are either paid off, written off or defaulted. Rolling over the debt bombs is like resetting the time bomb and delaying the day of the reckoning. I mean did ANYTHING really change since the fall of 2008 other than Feds pumping more liquidity at near zero percent? Yes we the taxpayers are the real victims and the bagholders.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:08
#221279
G7 Update
TORONTO (Reuters) - Investors are skeptical of assurances European finance ministers gave to their Group of Seven counterparts this weekend that the euro zone's debt crisis is under control.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6161AI20100207
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:22
#221289
euro contagion is a diversion and good way to get yields down on the US treasuries and to divert attention of investors from the UK bond market as MK ends the UK QE...
After all US govt needs to refi its 1.6T debt sometime by March.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:04
#221415
+1
So they doubled down on this week's T-Bill auction... hmmmm!
They spooked the markets a bit too much this time, and had to pull the old "rabbit out of the hat" late Friday... Dow < 10,000 headline over the weekend was not an option.
Dollar up, gold and equities down = successful T-Bill auctions
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:11
#221347
i want all of you guys and gals running the world. wow i just spent the last two hours reading the truth.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:51
#221403
greece is a diversion play from UK/USA story - UK ending E needs low bond yields & US refi 1.6T in March needs low yields hence the engineered crash (with PIGS written all over it).