• Gold Money
    05/26/2016 - 14:27
    Here’s a question that might have you pondering: Is gold a commodity? More importantly, are we doing a disservice to the gold industry by calling gold a commodity? These may sound like silly...

Copper: Part I The new currency.

Jack H Barnes's picture

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Sun, 12/05/2010 - 23:21 | 781039 TheInterest
TheInterest's picture

Here's what happens when you mess with copper and power lines: 




Sun, 12/05/2010 - 23:31 | 781059 iota
iota's picture

What's extra fucked is the bottom pic the guys skin has a copper tone.

Mon, 12/06/2010 - 08:41 | 781599 Praetor
Praetor's picture

Colloidal copper ingestion?

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 22:01 | 780774 gwar5
gwar5's picture

Maybe the JP Morgue is cornering the copper market so they can debase silver and gold bullion with it like the Romans used to do.

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 23:29 | 781058 iota
iota's picture

But hasn't that already been done? The copper and silver currency in the monetary systems of the world ceased to be copper or silver some time ago.

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 19:32 | 780236 Dimeboy
Dimeboy's picture

Before they got shut down and arrested last year on trumped up counterfeighting charges, I picked up a few tubes of the Silver AND COPPER Liberty Dollars - very nice 1 oz bullion coins in both metals. There are about 50 variations and they are quite collectable now. I can easily see myself using a copper dollar coin for modest purchases in the near future.  The Liberty Dollar founder was the head of the Hawaiian Mint at one point.  Too smart for TPTB's liking. Made the mistake of putting the word "dollar" on his first strikes.

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 18:08 | 780073 kreso
kreso's picture

JP Morgan is about to get squeezed in silver contracts. To avoid this, JP Morgan is trying to corner copper market. Good work Barnes, you're not JP Morgan shill?

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 18:28 | 780107 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

"JP Morgan is about to get squeezed in silver contracts. To avoid this, JP Morgan is trying to corner copper market."

Yep--first we got the unaudited diversions known as SLV and GLD.  Now we get the bald-faced copper mis-direction.  Desperation.



Sun, 12/05/2010 - 17:28 | 780009 Sofa King
Sofa King's picture

I just heard that Fromunda cheese is the next currency!

How about the next currency is what the Cartel tells you it is going to be and guess what, even if you have it...they will tax the shit out of it when you try to convert it, so you'll still be broke ass. And don't give me any of that Black Market nonsense, the folks running the show were the same guys running the Black Market so good luck with all of that.

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 17:08 | 779976 Drag Racer
Drag Racer's picture

I think the OP probably has some stock in something tied to copper and wants to create some demand or maybe he is just worried about JPM cornering copper at the LME and opening a copper vault... who knows.


All I know is copper has been used as currency for longer than we have been alive and theft of copper items for scrap value has been around for a while as well. In the mid 90s I managed a scrap yard and copper scrap always had to be looked at closely to check whether it was 'HOT'.

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 16:39 | 779923 minus dog
minus dog's picture

"If Copper becomes part of the next global currency, the world will have a new crime wave."

This is a giant, 20-foot tall flashing sign telling us that the author is, like more than a few ZH'ers, living a sheltered life.

Copper theft has been a huge problem for years.  Tweakers, bums, illegals, will strip a structure faster then you'd think possible.   Pipes, wires, A/C coils, bus bars, anything that can be sold for scrap.  You can make thousands of dollars a night doing this with little effort, and anyone saying otherwise doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about.

If you leave a building unguarded for more than a few days, the locusts will come and strip it.  I've seen places lose $50,000 worth of copper in a single night.

This is, coincidentally, why it is so damn hard to get power working in places like Iraq or Afghanistan... people keep stealing the power lines.

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 16:23 | 779896 buzlightening
buzlightening's picture

We have no honest money standard!! Paper dollar fiat currency is a ship without a rudder!  The only standard we have to measure the U.S. is a morally bankrupt/corrupt system!! You better have your personal morals anchored or you'll get blown away when the dollar becomes a hiss & bye-word!!  All men die and so will the dollar they invented to rob the masses!!  Lets return to an honest monetary standard!!  1st the pain!!  I know it burns as an oven but how else we goon-a separate the wheat from the chaff!!  Burn baby burn!!  You keep anything as a monetary store of value in this beastly system you'll die financially along with the paper ponzi goonzi's who proliferated the psycho babble of it all!!  Paper has value!!  Who are viper squids kidding!!

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 15:59 | 779857 Goldilocks
Goldilocks's picture

Anything that gets mines / trade ramped up again ... be it copper, silver, gold whatever ... will be death to the ponzi in the long run ... they will be essentially shooting themselves in the head. This story may be true (desperation), but it is a non-starter from their money / currency perspective.

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 15:02 | 779754 pragmatic hobo
pragmatic hobo's picture

if copper is new currency, then does that make Jamie Dimon  our new central banker?


Sun, 12/05/2010 - 14:20 | 779673 Mercury
Mercury's picture

  It takes very little effort in the big picture, to strip out hundreds or thousands of pounds of copper from an abandoned home or factory.

Pipes are one thing but unless you're willing to hunch over and strip away plastic insulation like a meth addict for hours on end, I don't think most wire would be worth the trouble.

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 14:44 | 779722 Bagbalm
Bagbalm's picture

Most folks burn wire insulation off - nasty toxic smoke too if you don't get the fire really hot.

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 16:27 | 779902 Big Corked Boots
Big Corked Boots's picture


A burn barrel doesn't get hot enough. Ask me how I know.

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 14:30 | 779692 delacroix
delacroix's picture

little effort my ass. the labor value far outweighs the metal value. it takes tools time, and sweat, not to mention it's a crime

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 15:22 | 779792 Thanatos
Thanatos's picture

Guess that depends on what you think your time and sweat is worth.

When you have nothing, and no hope of getting anything but more nothing, you can rationalize all sorts of behaviour.

Crime is going on 24/7/365, with most of the serious stuff occurring in DC and on Wall St.

It being a crime isn't going to deter a hungry scavenger, I see it all the time.

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 14:20 | 779671 UP4Liberty
UP4Liberty's picture

There is enough gold and silver to restore "sound" money to our monetary system.  If the decision was to go with gold, the price of gold would probably to over $50,000.00 per ounce to account for all fiat paper US dollars.  See this link:  http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2010/11/16_%...

If the decision was made to "leverage" gold for all fiat paper US dollars at a 10 - 1 ratio, then the price of gold could go over $5,000.00 per ounce.

Personally, I'd like to see a monetary standard based upon constitutional weights and measures, and everyone - corporations, governments, individuals could all work within the same monetary reality.

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 16:11 | 779874 Goldilocks
Goldilocks's picture

Indeed, equal weights & measurement ... doesn't give fraud much wiggle room (a ponzi’s worst nightmare).

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 14:18 | 779665 Arius
Arius's picture

King Dollar

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 14:10 | 779649 DosZap
DosZap's picture

If gold goes up a factor of ten, some people are "richer",

No, the fiat toilet paper is DEBAUCHED.

Golds intrinsic value never changes.

Its the same value now as 3000yrs ago.Its the crap SHEEPLE call money that is causing the prices to go up.

Before we can ever start calling Gold a bubble, it must go ABOVE the Inflation adjusted high of '80, a lot higher.( In my Honest opinion).

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 14:05 | 779643 Irwin Fletcher
Irwin Fletcher's picture

New currency? Besides pennies and nickels here, you can find plenty of copper currency on ebay in the form of pirate booty.

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 14:04 | 779641 ddtuttle
ddtuttle's picture

Copper is an essential commodity used in all kinds of electric and electronic devices, not to mention plumbing. We NEED to consume this stuff to keep everything going. Making money out of it is a total waste. Besides, every time you "save" a big pile of copper money, it needs to go into some new piece of equipment.

In contrast, consider gold, which is not a commodity in the same sense. Gold is useless, only tiny amounts get used in industrial processes. It's great talent is for doing absolutely nothing. It doesn't even oxidize like copper and silver. It just sits there preserving its value year after year, century after century. Some people think its pretty, and make jewelry out of it, but every one of those people knows exactly how much gold is in their jewelry, and what it's worth. In other words, gold jewelry is just bullion you can wear.

Now, notice that gold can have any price without disrupting anything. If gold goes up a factor of ten, some people are "richer", but that's it. No industries shut down, there is not a huge crime wave, because gold isn't used for anything nobody (except thieves) cares if you keep it in a vault. So as money changes value, as it always does, gold's price can fluctuate accordingly to always reflect its intrinsic value.

On the other hand, if copper goes up a factor of 10, whole industries are shut down, this formerly useful metal is too valuable to use. In part because it will get stolen, but also because nobody can afford it for day to day uses. It's value is ruining its utility, and interfering with true social needs.

Of course, copper will always be valuable, but it's just not a good form of money. Gold on the other hand is perfect for money, which is why IT HAS BEEN USED AS MONEY FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS. People that came before us weren't stupid, they knew all this and used gold for money and copper for its utility. Life is about getting stuff done. Let the commodities do their job of serving humanity; and let gold do what it does best, NOTHING.

Let gold serve humanity as money, let copper conduct electricity.

BTW: Silver has acquired so many industrial uses that it has moved into the copper category; its now a commodity. In the past gold was so valuable, we needed silver to make coins with a value corresponding to day to day transactions. However, we now have computers that could manage a gold standard in milligrams per millisecond. So silver may not be needed as a monetary metal.

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 14:03 | 779638 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

If copper would ever go balistic and reach 100$ oz, I'll tear out the wiring from my walls :)

For the rest, I'm not going to buy that. Those bars are way overprices, and copper is only 4$ a oz. Pilling those makes your house look like a metal shop.

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 14:25 | 779682 delacroix
delacroix's picture

$4 a pound

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 13:57 | 779629 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

The Blythe sez: Buy copper bullion, bitchez   http://goo.gl/cAmWR

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 13:52 | 779618 onlooker
onlooker's picture

Copper/brass theft of lines and cable, and A/C units has been a problem for at least 4 years. These are dopers not collectors. They also steal anything else they can haul off.


Copper at an estate sale, bankruptcy, or garage sale bought cheap is good, if you have a place to store it. Solid or wire is easier to store than tubular.


If you want to buy retail, go to a metal yard or scrap yard.


Watch the chart and buy dips. However, if the World economy comes to a halt, who will want of have a need for copper.

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 13:50 | 779616 I Am The Unknow...
I Am The Unknown Comic's picture

yeah, we're already using copper as currency, and it's called the nickel....the new poor man's 6 cent piece!

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 14:05 | 779642 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Copper became way too expensive, that why we have pennies that are worthLESS.

Want to buy a coke for free, everytime you stop at a 7-11, Stop N Go, etc,etc, check the drive.

You can pick up 10-20 cents in pennies and dimes.

People throw them away.

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 13:39 | 779592 Fix It Again Timmy
Fix It Again Timmy's picture

Copper as money, interesting thought - who knows what will happen when the Ho She Bang blows...

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 13:50 | 779611 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

Del. double post

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 13:46 | 779601 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

LOL!  The people hung von Gortz over the near worthless copper Dalers. 

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 13:25 | 779574 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

Baron von Gortz sez:  Bang Dae Ho!


Sun, 12/05/2010 - 13:47 | 779607 Mark Medinnus
Mark Medinnus's picture

No wonder Santa's so jolly.  Bangin Dae Ho Ho Ho will a white Christmas make.   

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 13:24 | 779572 Bearster
Bearster's picture

True money has many characteristics, one of them being its ratio of stocks (inventories) to flows (mine production).

For gold, it's 80 years.  For silver, on the order of 40-50 years.

Copper, anyone?  Months I believe.  This means that every ounce of copper bought is bought to be consumed as wires, pipes, circuit board traces, and whatever else copper is used for.  Attempt to accumulate it, or "corner" it at your own risk.

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 20:05 | 780334 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Good stuff, thanks for bringing it up.  It's vital to a full understanding:

Stock to Flow Ratio

The Stock-to-Flow Ratio is the ratio of the amount of available inventory to the amount of annual consumption.

There have been some 160,000 tonnes of gold mined in history (by most estimates) versus, say, 2400 tonnes produced annually.  Gold’s Stock-to-Flow Ratio would be 66.67:1 using these numbers.  There is one ounce of gold produced for every 66.67 ounces already above ground and hoarded.

Gold has the highest stock to flow ratio of any commodity which makes it ideal for use as money.   Gold is accumulated.  Other commodities are consumed. 

Most commodities have Stock-to-Flow Ratios measured in days, weeks, or months (oil, corn).   Silver’s ratio is  ~1.5:1.  There are some one billion ounces in world inventory and some 667 million ounces mined annually, all of which is consumed (and then some).

Gold’s Ratio is rising.  Silver’s is falling.  Every year there is more gold added to world stockpiles.  Every year the world uses more silver than is mined.  The excess must come from inventory.  Silver inventory had been declining for decades.  The situation in gold can continue forever.  The situation in silver cannot.


Sun, 12/05/2010 - 13:21 | 779566 Hook Line and S...
Hook Line and Sphincter's picture

Once all the meth-heads abscond with all the copper wire, and there's no way to transport electricity of the kinetic variety, maybe we'll all get the magnifying transmitters we've had on our Christmas lists.

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 13:20 | 779564 Mark Medinnus
Mark Medinnus's picture

Thoughtful article.  Thanks

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 13:19 | 779563 Steroid
Steroid's picture

Two comments:

1) For a commodity to work as money it needs to have a high stock to flow ratio. Gold has it around hundred, silver has it around ten. Copper is close to one. If copper was used as money, although it can not produce hyperinflation, inflation would peak around 100%, this thing would be inflated almost like paper currently.

2) The US can not afford even a zinc standard does it mean that all things will be stolen?

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 13:15 | 779555 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

A pre-64 dime is the poor man's silver.


Sun, 12/05/2010 - 13:57 | 779631 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Prems are too damn high on US silver coins.

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 18:21 | 780094 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

Junk silver -- circulated pre-64 coins -- is some of the cheapest bullion you can buy.

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 19:47 | 780279 RockyRacoon
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Not to be picky, but that would be pre-1965 since 1964 was the last silver year, except for a batch of 40% silver coinage after 1964 that's too much trouble to keep track of.

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 13:14 | 779554 bania
bania's picture

Copper is the poor man's silver

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 13:08 | 779546 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

The JP Morgue and The BenBernank would LOVE to divert J6P into copper--and away from silver.

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 13:00 | 779541 jedimarkus
jedimarkus's picture

I still think the best way to own copper is to own copper jacketed ammo....

Sun, 12/05/2010 - 13:36 | 779586 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

There you have it, you can eat copper.

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