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Debt Ceiling Not To Be Resolved Until July?

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Part 2 of the Great Beltway Soap Opera promises to be quite entertaining. According to Reuters, even though the US desperately needs to get a debt ceiling resolution immediately (we are at a point when any debt auction could be the last, depending on how many refunds the Treasury has to issue at any given point), Republicans are resolved to "stretch out negotiations on raising the U.S. debt limit until July....Prolonging negotiations past mid-May when Washington will hit its debt limit could give Republicans more leverage to secure big spending cuts, but it could worry investors as the country runs up against a possible default. The Republicans said they would act before that happened." The only question is whether bond investors (no matter how deflationary attuned) will stay in bonds before any possible compromise. Of course, should yields surge as a result of political "instability" it will merely reinforce the continuation of an easing regime, especially since Goldman is now obviously in a faux-disinflationary regime (more thoughts on that imminently, together with how to trade the unwind of Goldman remaining "Top Trades for 2011" following purported Bill Dudley instructions). And if the debt ceiling debate is in any way comparable to the grotesque farce that was the $38.5 billion, pardon $14.7 billion spending cut, then America is certainly buggered.

From Reuters:

Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell and Eric Cantor, the No. 2 Republican in the House of Representatives, fired the opening shots in what is expected to be a bitter fight with the White House over increasing the U.S. borrowing limit to enable the country to keep paying its debts.

In a speech on Wednesday, President Barack Obama will lay out his vision for reducing U.S. deficits to a manageable level through tax increases, spending cuts and changes to expensive healthcare programs for the poor and elderly.

Republicans plan to pass a rival plan in the House this week that would lower top tax rates, further slash domestic spending and eventually cut benefits in government-run health programs.

"Tax increases are unacceptable and a nonstarter," House Speaker John Boehner said in a statement. "We don't have deficits because Americans are taxed too little, we have deficits because Washington spends too much."

 McConnell and Cantor said separately that Congress would hold a vote sometime between those two dates.

"We anticipate that this debt ceiling issue will come before us between Memorial Day (May 30) and the Fourth of July," McConnell said.

Cantor said: "Treasury if I'm not mistaken has put forth a notice which says there is a window within which we have to act in order to avoid the eventual default of this country on its debt. And I believe that that outside deadline is early July."

Republicans see the debt limit vote as an opportunity to win further spending cuts, and say they will not support an increase without them. All 47 Republicans in the Senate have signed on to a measure that would amend the Constitution to require a balanced budget.

Some analysts were skeptical of the Republican strategy.

Once again, for the cheap seats:

Experts warn the country could eventually face a Greek-style debt crisis, and the International Monetary Fund urged the United States on Tuesday to outline credible measures to reduce deficits.

The government will run up against its current debt limit of $14.3 trillion by May 16, according to the Treasury Department. Without an increase, the country would default on its debt, roiling bond markets and pushing up interest rates for businesses and individuals.

The Treasury has said it can postpone the day of reckoning until July 8 by using a variety of measures.

Some so called expert opinions:

"I think that's the wrong thing to do," said Lou Brien, a market strategist with DRW Trading Group in Chicago. "It risks the perception of default, and I think right now the market is thinking that there will be more adults than that, but we will see how that plays out."

Mary Miller, Treasury's assistant secretary for financial markets, said it would be "highly disruptive" if Congress did not raise the debt limit before the current ceiling was reached in mid-May.

And tonight's trivia: name the speaker.

"The fact that we are
here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of
leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its
own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial
assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless
fiscal policies
. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us
domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops
here. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today
onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt
problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.

 

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Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:10 | 1164104 monopoly
monopoly's picture

Thomas Jefferson? We need someone like him.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:54 | 1164200 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Why?  He would just be ignored, labeled as a kook by the American media, and quickly forgotten.

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 04:46 | 1164420 Slartebartfast
Slartebartfast's picture

Homeland Security would hang him as a "Home Grown Terrorist".

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 07:10 | 1164515 silvertrain
silvertrain's picture

For his beard alone...

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 05:48 | 1164458 Arkadaba
Wed, 04/13/2011 - 09:03 | 1164716 curbyourrisk
curbyourrisk's picture

According to all government standards...Thomas Jefferson ( along with Ben Franklin and George Washington and all of our faounding fathers) would be labeled domestic terrorists and held without bail.  We live in a sad excuse of a country and it is about damn time the American people take back what is ours!!!!!

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:09 | 1164109 MacroStory
MacroStory's picture

Barack OH Bama - what do I win?

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 07:23 | 1164522 gordengeko
gordengeko's picture

Columbia College of Columbia University, completed Bachelor’s degree in political science, specialized in international relations.
Harvard Law School, earned J.D. degree

Andrew Jackson
1767 - 1845
President 1829 - 1837
No college education.
Read law for two years and became practicing lawyer with no degree.

Abraham Lincoln
1809 - 1865
President 1861 - 1865
No college education. Lincoln had less than one full year of formal education in his life, in a log cabin school taught by unqualified teachers. He did a great deal of reading at home, and later worked in a store, where he had an opportunity to spend time reading numerous newspapers and other periodicals of the day. Went into Illinois politics after a very brief military career.

John Kennedy
1917 - 1963
President 1961 – 1963 (assassinated)
Graduated from elite prep school Choate, voted "Most likely to become President" by classmates there
Entered London School of Economics, undergraduate, but returned home after just three weeks due to poor health
Princeton University, undergraduate. Attended six weeks before being sent home to be observed for possible diagnosis of leukemia
Harvard University, competed undergraduate degree, graduated cum laude
Stanford Graduate School of Business. Left before completing degree to join military
(Did not agree with the policies of the ruling class and verbally spoke out against them.)

 

Any questions

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:09 | 1164111 Muir
Muir's picture

Well, yeah, but how's this news good for Silver?

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 02:48 | 1164356 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

The banks have none, yet need to collateralize an asset (cheap) for loan.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:16 | 1164112 HamyWanger
HamyWanger's picture

The debt ceiling has never mattered, except in the bigoted and paranoid mind of Constitution-obsessed, anti-State, anti-Federal Reserve, anti-inflation, anti-debt libertarians. 

The debt ceiling will be hiked with no discussion on the limit date. Same as it ever was.

Learn it, love it, trade it. 

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:34 | 1164154 Sock Puppet
Sock Puppet's picture

Well we did borrow the money, the only right thing to do is to borrow more to make interest payments.  It is the responsible thing to do and any patriot should support our government in this decision.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:42 | 1164167 HamyWanger
HamyWanger's picture

Exactly. Anybody who opposes the increase of the debt limit is a traitor to our Government, and should be immediately convicted with aggravated felony. 

We all know what would happen if the ceiling is not raised, including the end of payments for our military. 

This cannot be acceptable, and anyone who condones this should be sentenced to the electric chair for putting in danger the lives of our fellow Americans. 

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:57 | 1164205 mark mchugh
mark mchugh's picture

(yes, the irony completely escaped him)

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 06:08 | 1164468 Arkadaba
Arkadaba's picture

very tired but he he

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 08:47 | 1164656 Ray1968
Ray1968's picture

eh gads

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:04 | 1164221 Sock Puppet
Sock Puppet's picture

I don't know about them deserving the electric chair, but I am sure a lot of dissenters on this site are being actively monitored  by the government.  Some of the other sock puppets around here actually call for violence just to see who will chime in and support them, then one of the agencies monitors those individuals, you know like a domestic terrorist watch list. 

Also, if they don't raise the debt level I run the risk of losing my job, as well as the many other sock pupets that work this site.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:10 | 1164232 TheGreatPonzi
TheGreatPonzi's picture

The SPLC is already on the job. 

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:24 | 1164239 HamyWanger
HamyWanger's picture

I've always supported the close monitoring of crazed lunatics and fringe groups too. 

In the USSR, those who opposed communism were put in psychiatric asylums, and sometimes submitted to electroshocks or lobotomy (a tiny piece of metal was inserted in their frontal lobes).

I do not condone such extreme measures, of course, and I'm not a communist (only a liberal) so I think 'pacific' reeducation camps are sufficient, especially for the innocent kids who have been brainwashed by their redneck libertarian parents into believing the "evil" State is responsible for all their problems. 

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:29 | 1164258 Doña K
Doña K's picture

How does a liberal like you preserve wealth?

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 02:44 | 1164351 Selah
Selah's picture

 

Ask your hubby...

 

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 03:13 | 1164370 Doña K
Doña K's picture

You are funny. He keeps mumbling about maples eagles bars or something like that.

Maybe.... bars=lieutenant, maple=a major and eagle=colonel. Oh! I get it. They are all made out of gold. Now I get him. He is no dummy I tell you.   

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:43 | 1164275 Sock Puppet
Sock Puppet's picture


CIA purchases stake in firm monitoring social networking

http://www.neowin.net/news/cia-purchase-steak-in-firm-monitoring-social-networking

"Each post is scored as 'positive', 'negative', 'mixed' or 'neutral' furthermore the software has the ability to examine just how influential a conversation on a website or even a particular author is. Finally, the software has the ability for a user to tag posts, forward the information to a colleague and then receive feedback as to their opinion regarding the data."

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 07:58 | 1164579 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Fun summer camps for the kids.

Support groups and medications.for the paranoid parents who dont want to teach their kids how to think, but merely regurgitate talking points.

reNeducation for fans of the Simpsons.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 04:18 | 1164407 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Uh, duh! Ya think? We are ALL being monitored at different levels by the US gestapo/KGB/Stassi/NKVD (for history lovers). Screw your job, worry about your useless life. You enjoy being a wage slave?

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 05:35 | 1164453 MSimon
MSimon's picture

I have been monitored for 50 years. F 'em.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 05:53 | 1164465 Global Hunter
Global Hunter's picture

Anybody who debases the currency and robs from the working, lower middle, middle, upper middle classes and the elderly on fixed incomes is a traitor.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 07:34 | 1164543 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

Noted. Stay where you are, somebody will be with you shortly.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 08:12 | 1164607 Cash_is_Trash
Cash_is_Trash's picture

GH, attempting to subvert state power, are we?

Janet, Janet, Janet Napolitano, your fucked up brain is required to place ever more restrictions on free speech.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 09:05 | 1164724 curbyourrisk
curbyourrisk's picture

Wanger is a total freakin loon.  Tool for the establishment....  Our first target should be people just like this!

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 07:54 | 1164571 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

You guys are so funny junking hamy.

You know it is hamy not harry right?

This is hamy's shtic.

It is funny cuz people keep taking the bait!

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 08:14 | 1164609 Cash_is_Trash
Cash_is_Trash's picture

Agreed, a master indeed. Most are worked-up about the shit he says.

Which is coincidentally what Barry would say.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:10 | 1164113 monopoly
monopoly's picture

Oh of course you are right. I was hoping for a leader.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:16 | 1164115 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

i'd add some stock puts to the silver.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:18 | 1164119 ForWhomTheTollBuilds
ForWhomTheTollBuilds's picture

What would a "default" in this context really mean to the markets though?  

Printing money with wild abandon is a form of default and the US is already doing that.  Wouldn't the govt be in a position to selectively default anyway?  American citizens will put up with being stiffed if it's explained to them that this is temporary and all the fault of those evil Republicans (or Democrats). 

 

I cannot imagine foreigners bearing the brunt of such an event.  If the US can ban gold ownership among it's own citizens but still redeem the currency for Gold to foreigners, I don't see why the govt cannot pick and choose who they honor their agreements with, as suits them in the moment.  US citizens have no choice about continuing to play.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 02:54 | 1164361 Conrad Murray
Conrad Murray's picture

Either people sack up and stop paying taxes, or STFU and submit. Those are the options.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 04:20 | 1164409 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Short and concise. +14 trillion

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:18 | 1164122 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

obamas speech on wed should be hilarious - winning the future. maybe he announces c.sheen replacing biden - dragon blood and all.  i m sure the crowd of seals will go wild for tax increases.  do they come with waivers - like obamacare?

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:19 | 1164123 narnia
narnia's picture

Maybe the Treasury can just sale-leaseback the white house, the pentagon & all of our overseas bases to the Fed in exchange for them printing up $5 trillion of Federal Reserve Notes.  This would probably circumvent the debt ceiling rules.   

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:22 | 1164124 crash_davis
crash_davis's picture

The speaker is the speech writer who put the words on O-bummer's teleprompter.

UHHHH Let me be clear... (best obama impression)

It's all bread and circuses for the masses except they are playing with our kids and grand-kids future. 

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 02:21 | 1164324 Doña K
Doña K's picture

My hubby told me that: Too much fluoride in the water helps you see oramata or godly visions aka Obama-rama. I don't get him sometimes but he knows a lot of stuff

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 04:25 | 1164411 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Are you my wife? I've been trying to get her to read ZH for two years, all to no avail. So, yes, dear, ZH gets it.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 08:05 | 1164593 DoctoRx
DoctoRx's picture

All this stuff about our kids and grandkids future is far too optimistic.  It's what the MSM wants you to think-- so they can present you with "long term" budget analyses.  BS.  It's about tomorrow, not 20 or 40 years from now.  

Once you start talking about that time frame, no one will take the measures needed to restore economic health and freedom.

They're playing with our future - and the present.

 

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 08:18 | 1164615 Cash_is_Trash
Cash_is_Trash's picture

If your a baby boomer, you've lived pretty damn well haven't you? -- At the expense of your children and grandchildren.

The boomer generation has created entitlements for themselves that nobody can fucking afford.

I hope the children of the previous generation, pulls and Iceland to the creditors.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:26 | 1164133 Quantum Nucleonics
Quantum Nucleonics's picture

Correct me if I'm wrong, but not raising the debt ceiling wouldn't trigger a default, per se.  It would mean that the Treasury couldn't pay more than what they get in incoming tax receipts.  Maturing debt could still be flipped.  Though, tax receipts are so low, Treasury would only be able to afford to pay interest and one among defense, SS, or Medicare.

 

In order to retain leverage and string out the negotiations, you may see a short term hike in the debt ceiling, say $200 billion.  Enough to give negotiations more time and wrap it into a larger deal for the 2012 budget.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:26 | 1164135 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

The Hypocrite in the white house , talking about the last hypocrite in the white house

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:33 | 1164136 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

So here's the flip side of the same debate, of major interest to ZHers: What if it's Not a Gold bubble? Everyone in the financial media, global central bankers and Wall Street Ibankers keep hammering home the theme that there's a gold "bubble" that soon will bust into gold confetti. Kinda cool. But totally off the mark and they're sweating. That's because the real bubble is the cheap money bubble and it's gone global and nuclear. They can't find enough places to stash the cash anymore. Every country is in printing mode and there are fewer and fewer places for that money to be put to work safely. Interest rates are negative, sovereign debt is getting more and more dubious, the US real economy is in depression and developing nations are trying to restrict capital flows. Corporations are busting with "cash on the balance sheet" that should be racing to be deployed as investment, but it's not. The more depressed the developed economies get, the more they print. So spiraling natural resource prices mask the deflation while the depressed economy masks  the inflation. 

Gold and PM demand is growing in direct proportion to the money bubble and when that one busts you'll want PMs at hand

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:33 | 1164150 Misean
Misean's picture

Hot money is sloshing around the globe looking for assets to bubble. It's not that it can't find a place to "work" per se, it's just that there ain't no one to lever up a bubble big enough to absorb it. It's like all 10 poker and black jack tables have a billion dollar limit and the 10 players have a trillion each to play with...the tables are too small now...any attempt to make a killing breaks the house.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:40 | 1164164 Selah
Selah's picture

 

Interesting analogy!

Now I understand what I read about "Gold is too cheap" for major money to move into.

 

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:52 | 1164186 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

Hehe. There are no limits in the real world, and more money just brings on higher prices. A billionaire goes shopping in a small town where everyone is poor. Suddenly all the shop owners are jacking their prices up sky high because they can. No limits. In Weimar they bought bread with billion mark notes. And then there's the issue of growing global competition for resources: US prints trillions and goes shopping for oil. Soon everyone realizes they can't compete without playing the same game. And 2008 gave the green light to uninhibited central bank excuses to print more. It's as simple as water seeking its own level: PMs and commodities are rising simply to keep the absolute or real cost the same as it was before the printing. 

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:04 | 1164226 Misean
Misean's picture

The games bigger than one nation like Weimar Germany. That was the point

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 02:08 | 1164267 Doña K
Doña K's picture

My hubby told me that: "We want high inflation on what we need and deflation on what we want." I don't get him sometimes.

He mumbled something about trading 20 gold maples for a 65 foot sailboat soon. I always thought that maple trees were kind of brown. As I said: I don't get him.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 08:23 | 1164622 Cash_is_Trash
Cash_is_Trash's picture

And you married this guy????!

Damn, what a retard!

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:54 | 1164194 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

Then there's that one player that has a 100 trillion +.  What about them?  

Winner take All?  (That's with a capital "A".)

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:01 | 1164214 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

That's been tried many many times. The buying power of the trillion simply declines until it's back to where it was. With enough money printing we'll all be millionaires....with the same buying power or less. 

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:07 | 1164227 Misean
Misean's picture

Why do you think the top .01% are growing their wealth concentration. Control of the printer, baby.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:37 | 1164159 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

Well put and on target.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:37 | 1164160 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

Well put and on target.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:31 | 1164141 AldoHux_IV
AldoHux_IV's picture

The debt is worthless paper anyway-- let's default which logically leads to ending the fed, reforming the treasury, stop funding for the IMF and Worldbank, replace all members of congress and the white house, and really begin to start solving our structural, interior, exterior imbalances and repair the democratic process.

Anything less would be continuing the slavery that we find ourselves in.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:03 | 1164220 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

+++ A return to sound money!

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:35 | 1164144 TheGreatPonzi
TheGreatPonzi's picture

To understand the idiocy of the so-called "experts" who are always interviewed in financial news, one must know how modern journalism works (and thus having worked in the press). 

Every newspaper has a pre-defined list of people who can be interviewed (two-three people for each field), with complete contact details. This list is chosen by the redaction chief. The list never changes, it works in rotation. 

It is quite obvious that the people who can be interviewed share the political and general views of the redation chief, who himself has generally been appointed by BIGNEWS (Time-Warner, ABC, ESPN, NewsCorp, and of course Reuters/AP/AFP). 

The whole world media, though being apparently diverse, is entirely controlled by the same four conglomerates. 

For example, both Time and Fortune belong to Time-Warner. It tells a lot on the connivence between an apparently leftist magazine, and the magazine of the masturbating oligarchy (90% of pages in a Fortune are high-res pictures of CEOs and bankers). 

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:32 | 1164148 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

That Boehner says anything remotely courageous-que at this point is laughable...already mailed it in when he said he wouldn't shut down the gubmint when the stakes were chicken feed.  There is no will in D.C. for pay-as-you-go; that's the root issue & I have zero faith that the next guy in the door turns the ship.

I'm long physical PMs, food, family, ammo and Scripture, and they're all LT holds.

Quote sounds either Barry Goldwater or Mitt-boy.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:46 | 1164179 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

If you're long "Scripture", then you're just another one of the stupid fucking sheep.

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." -Lucius Annaeus Seneca (4?BCE - 61CE)

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:59 | 1164217 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

No, I just have a longer view than you.  But I'm glad you cleared it all up for me...

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:11 | 1164237 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Great answer. I would have argued with him. 

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:22 | 1164247 Selah
Selah's picture

"God is the universal substance in existing things. He comprises all things. He is the fountain of all being. In Him exists everything that is."

"I will govern my life and thoughts as if the whole world were to see the one and read the other, for what does it signify to make anything a secret to my neighbor, when to God, who is the searcher of our hearts, all our privacies are open?"
-Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Might want to use another example...
Wed, 04/13/2011 - 10:16 | 1164942 SilverFiend
SilverFiend's picture

No,  they only use examples that further their argument.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:37 | 1164260 Sock Puppet
Sock Puppet's picture

King Solomon was the wisest person to ever live.  God spoke to him directly.  God said (paraphrasing) Solomon do you want riches or do you want wisdom.  Solomon said wisdom, so God gave him both.  

Why is that you use CE, didn't you know the birth of Christ was so powerful it split time in two.  A.D. stands for the Latin phrase Anno Domini meaning Year of the Lord and it dates the birth of Christ.  It is interesting that the so called wise of this age think they can just redefine an event that occurred 2000 years ago by changing A.D. to C.E (Common Era).

Jesus was Immanuel which translates as God with us, literally.

 “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”      I Cor 1:18

The message is the gospel, it means good news.  It is wonderful news that a God that loves you so much that he offered Jesus as a substitute for you so you could spend eternity with Him.  The choice is yours. 

God gave us our ability to reason, to weigh, to measure and to evaluate. God gave us common sense. He does not expect us to float around on a little faith cloud and never use our minds. In fact, in Isaiah 1:18, God said, "Come now, and let us reason together." 

 

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:56 | 1164292 Selah
Selah's picture


Selah!

 

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 02:05 | 1164306 Doña K
Doña K's picture

My hubby told me that he used to be an agnostic, but lately he is not sure.

As I said: I dont get him sometimes.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 05:07 | 1164431 RichardP
RichardP's picture

Alzheimer's?

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 05:29 | 1164450 MSimon
MSimon's picture

Why is that you use CE, didn't you know the birth of Christ was so powerful it split time in two.

Well no. I don't know that. Besides J. didn't officially become God until about 300 AD. You would think that the people of his own time would have noticed. Ah. Now I remember. Roman politics had something to do with it.


Thu, 04/14/2011 - 02:18 | 1167992 Sock Puppet
Sock Puppet's picture

 

To the Emperor Trajan From Pliny the Younger


It is my invariable rule, Sir, to refer to you in all matters where I feel doubtful; for who is more capable of removing my scruples, or informing my ignorance? Having never been present at any trials concerning those who profess Christianity, I am unacquainted not only with the nature of their crimes, or the measure of their punishment, but how far it is proper to enter into an examination concerning them. Whether, therefore, any difference is usually made with respect to ages, or no distinction is to be observed between the young and the adult; whether repentance entitles them to a pardon; or if a man has been once a Christian, it avails nothing to desist from his error; whether the very profession of Christianity, unattended with any criminal act, or only the crimes themselves inherent in the profession are punishable; on all these points I am in great doubt. In the meanwhile, the method I have observed towards those who have been brought before me as Christians is this: I asked them whether they were Christians; if they admitted it, I repeated the question twice, and threatened them with punishment; if they persisted, I ordered them to be at once punished: for I was persuaded, whatever the nature of their opinions might be, a contumacious and inflexible obstinacy certainly deserved correction. There were others also brought before me possessed with the same infatuation, but being Roman citizens, I directed them to be sent to Rome. But this crime spreading (as is usually the case) while it was actually under prosecution, several instances of the same nature occurred. An anonymous information was laid before me containing a charge against several persons, who upon examination denied they were Christians, or had ever been so. They repeated after me an invocation to the gods, and offered religious rites with wine and incense before your statue (which for that purpose I had ordered to be brought, together with those of the gods), and even reviled the name of Christ: whereas there is no forcing, it is said, those who are really Christians into any of these compliances: I thought it proper, therefore, to discharge them. Some among those who were accused by a witness in person at first confessed themselves Christians, but immediately after denied it; the rest owned indeed that they had been of that number formerly, but had now (some above three, others more, and a few above twenty years ago) renounced that error. They all worshipped your statue and the images of the gods, uttering imprecations at the same time against the name of Christ. They affirmed the whole of their guilt, or their error, was, that they met on a stated day before it was light, and addressed a form of prayer to Christ, as to a divinity, binding themselves by a solemn oath, not for the purposes of any wicked design, but never to commit any fraud, theft, or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble, to eat in common a harmless meal. From this custom, however, they desisted after the publication of my edict, by which, according to your commands, I forbade the meeting of any assemblies.

http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_text_plinyltrstrajan.htm

Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus, born Gaius Caecilius or Gaius Caecilius Cilo (61 AD – ca. 112 AD), better known as Pliny the Younger, was a lawyerauthor, and magistrate of Ancient Rome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger

This was a secular historical source in the first century affirming that Christians prayed to and worshiped Jesus Christ as Divine, aka God.  Nothing to do with Roman Politics in 300 BC.  You notice these letter are concerning the persucution of the church.

 

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 06:16 | 1164477 ColonelCooper
ColonelCooper's picture

Junked.

Thu, 04/14/2011 - 02:21 | 1167993 Sock Puppet
Sock Puppet's picture

Junked.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 07:42 | 1164552 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Maybe it is kinder to the deluded to say they are hooked on Marx's opiate.

Even the deluded dont like to be called stupid

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:38 | 1164158 Freebird
Freebird's picture

What they say about how the people get the goverment they deserve?

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:57 | 1164204 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

"They" are full of shit and their mothers dress them funny.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:21 | 1164254 Freebird
Freebird's picture

I say too. Judicial system? Show me the convictions, show me the class actions. Show me an impeachment. Pussies.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 02:06 | 1164308 MisterMousePotato
MisterMousePotato's picture

What they say about how the people get the goverment they deserve?

What 'they' say is wrong. What is true is that I get the government that they deserve.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 04:32 | 1164414 cossack55
cossack55's picture

LOL. Like it.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 10:45 | 1165094 Freebird
Freebird's picture

Truer, Mouse

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:38 | 1164161 infiniti
infiniti's picture

ES up 4.25 points... Japan up... don't worry, it's all good.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:38 | 1164163 DispenzPez
DispenzPez's picture

We're not in Kansas any more, or Camelot, or...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s1MspmfEwg

 

 

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:50 | 1164183 Freebird
Freebird's picture

Land of the free & of the brave. ROTFLMFAO

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 04:32 | 1164415 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Land of the Fee and Home of the Slave.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:43 | 1164169 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

Maybe the Executive Dept. can just pull another Teddy Roosevelt and send the Navy halfway around the world with no fuel to get back?  It worked before and we all know how much the Republicrats love their military and all it's appurtenant dividends.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:48 | 1164174 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

There's a wild wind blowin'

Down the corners of my street

Every night there a headlights glowin'

There's a cold war comin'

On the radio I heard

Baby it's a violent world

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:47 | 1164175 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

ATTACK!!!

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:54 | 1164197 Citizen Kang
Citizen Kang's picture

Republicans are full of crap on this. They wouldn't dare upset their masters on Wall Street. But they know that Obama is weak and are hoping to extract further concessions out of him. Obama will probably defund Planned Parenthood or kill NPR or some such trivial thing in order to get the debt ceiling raised so the GOP can continue their lunatic social agenda while doing nothing to address the country's fiscal problems.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:56 | 1164209 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Republicans are full of crap on this. They wouldn't dare upset their masters on Wall Street.

That's a pretty sweeping statement. I'd dare say the long-entrenched in office are controlled by Wall Street, but many Republicans are newly elected to change things and are not under Wall Street control.

...so the GOP can continue their lunatic social agenda while doing nothing to address the country's fiscal problems

huh? And what strange agenda is that?

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:06 | 1164230 Citizen Kang
Citizen Kang's picture

Its cute that you believe that the Tea Party is a legitimate game-changer in the Republican Party and not just pawns of the Oligarchs.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:13 | 1164243 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Great....I found a lying troll who uses my response to put out his nonsense agenda. Thanks a lot.

Can I leave now? Or do you have more bullshit to say?

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:57 | 1164212 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

Planned Parenthood is a waste of money thanks to Fukushima.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 05:36 | 1164452 Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

The Republicans may very well be full of crap on this. The majority of them may very well have their masters on Wall Street. But you posting implies that Obama has some other master, when it is very obvious he is a creature of Wall Street. He has his handler right there next to him, from the Morgue, and treasury is run by a Wall Street career employee. 

There was a joke running around when I lived in Honduras during the early 80's, the Generals had recently allowed an elected civilian President to take office.  The joke was that Honduras had got a new radio system for the government in order to pass orders. The one the head General got only could send, the one the President got could only receive.

Who, after all, is on the sending side of that Blackberry Obama has had since day one? The American People? Right.

It appears that you are at least as full of crap as the Republicans.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:56 | 1164201 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Very Interesting. Of course the system "appears" to be so precarious that a simple delay of a month or two could send the ecomony into a tailspin.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:04 | 1164224 Freebird
Freebird's picture

One black one, one white one, & one with a bit of shite on, & one with a fairy light on to show us the way

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 00:57 | 1164210 mark mchugh
mark mchugh's picture

I've always loved a good game of chicken.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:01 | 1164215 chet
chet's picture

Fucking morons.  The Dems are clueless and the GOP isn't serious.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:16 | 1164248 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Some are ok, but I'm afraid it's not enough to hold the line and end this nonsense.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:05 | 1164228 nah
nah's picture

i cant wait for the tea party to get marginalized and fail so republicans can start their soul search... staring down pluralistic leadership

.

accepting they too voted for another of the worlds Obamas

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:18 | 1164253 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

The Tea Party is America.....all parties, races, and creeds. The other souless SOB's are riding the wave of easy money over a cliff.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 02:02 | 1164301 Doña K
Doña K's picture

My hubby mumble something about getting off the grid. I don't get him sometimes. How are we going to power the toaster?

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 06:10 | 1164470 Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

Stick a fork in it and let me know when it's done.

And no, I didn't junk you.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:08 | 1164234 NOPOMO
NOPOMO's picture

We always have POMOrrow to deal with these issues.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:08 | 1164235 NOPOMO
NOPOMO's picture

We always have POMOrrow to deal with these issues.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:16 | 1164249 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

 

The Republicans were really stupid to win an election in 2010; honestly, they would have been much better to wait for 2012.

I see a redux of the mid '90's; the DEMS will force the REPUBS to do their thing - and austerity in the face of bailouts seems even more obscene than shutting down the government over a mere $500 billion in the mid 90's.

Actually, I am forgetting, this is scripted.  The majority of politicians are hacks, there for the cash and healthcare and bribes and after career perks - and the longer they keep the three ring circus humming to sell popcorn and cotton candy and trinkets for the sake of Wall Street the better off they are.

 

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 02:08 | 1164310 MisterMousePotato
MisterMousePotato's picture

It was 13 billion, not 500.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 05:23 | 1164444 Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

I had a chance to speak with Ron Lewis, former congressman from my district in KY, at a private Rand Paul meet and greet before the last election. Ron Lewis was elected just before the so-called Republican revolution in 1994 in a special election against Joe Prather, a local corrupt Democrat. It was something of an upset, as they treat Joe Prather as a minor god around here. Anyway, he candidly as much as admitted to me that Newt was put in place to sabotage any meaningful reform of the system. He said he hoped that this time would be different, but he doubted the 'powers that be' could be overcome. However, he was there to support Rand Paul, so he had some hope. So far we are seeing a replay of those days, the stage managed shows where the Repubs try to fight for reform, but those nasty Democrats that don't have the votes somehow overcome the reform and they get 'the best they could'. Meanwhile, somehow, the Democrats ram through unconstitutional garbage that over 70% of the people oppose without a problem. Yes, other than 4 or 5 people, they are all bought and paid for, or blackmailed, or whatever. My best example is Marco Rubio, who it appears, is a actually a liberal democrat now that he is in office, supporting Obama in the illegal war in Libya and defending Obama on the natural born citizen issue [papers - I don't have to show no stickin papers!]. Of course, Rubio's natural born status is up for grabs also, as his parents were not American at the time of his birth, they were Cubans.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:39 | 1164268 jmc8888
jmc8888's picture

America has a 'fraudulent' debt problem.

Niether cutting nor printing is the appropriate answer for it. (although we all know bailouts, defense/war spending can be cut)

Niether cutting nor printing will stop the system from being well, the fraudulent bankster system.  (it'll just give them more to steal)

If only there was a law in conception to deal with the fraud.  If only someone could invent one.

Oh wait, we already did, already used it, but repealed it.  Weaking it first, then outright shafting it.

Glass-Steagall, full 1933 standard, everything in the system either meets or doesn't it's clear standard.  Hint: modernization (aka fraud) will be toast, as in worth ZERO.  Deposits are safe.  Legitimate loans will still be there.  Aside from Glass-Steagall, some haircuts will be made, but with lower prices, it will even out pretty well. 

The problem we have about the debt, is that everyone thinks it's legitimate, and that we have to pay it off.  WRONG.

 

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 02:38 | 1164340 AmCockerSpaniel
AmCockerSpaniel's picture

So see what happens when some one said; Bring back the Glass-Steagall act. They get marked as junk. I for one think bringing it back should be the very first step.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 06:13 | 1164473 hardcleareye
hardcleareye's picture

That would be a very good place to start.  But laws are meaningless if they are not enforced, and if you do not provide funding and "quality management" the laws on the book become a farce.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 01:59 | 1164298 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

A timely reminder why this country is fucked:

 

But there’s a reason. There’s a reason. There’s a reason for this, there’s a reason education SUCKS, and it’s the same reason it will never, ever,  EVER be fixed.

It’s never going to get any better, don’t look for it, be happy with what you’ve got.

Because the owners, the owners of this country don't want that. I'm talking about the real owners now, the BIG owners! The Wealthy… the REAL owners! The big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions.

Forget the politicians. They are irrelevant. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice! You have OWNERS! They OWN YOU. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought, and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls.

They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying,  lobbying, to get what they want.  Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I'll tell you what they don’t want: 

They don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that. That doesn’t help them. Thats against their interests.

Thats right. They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table and think about how badly they’re getting fucked by a system that threw them overboard 30 fucking years ago. They don’t want that!

You know what they want? They want obedient workers. Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork. And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shitty jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it, and now they’re coming for your Social Security money. They want your retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street, and you know something? They’ll get it. They’ll get it all from you sooner or later cause they own this fucking place! Its a big club, and you ain’t in it!  You, and I, are not in the big club.

By the way, its the same big club they use to beat you over the head with all day long when they tell you what to believe. All day long beating you over the head with their media telling you what to believe, what to think and what to buy. The table has tilted folks. The game is rigged and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care! Good honest hard-working people; white collar, blue collar it doesn’t matter what color shirt you have on. Good honest hard-working people continue, these are people of modest means, continue to elect these rich cock suckers who don’t give a fuck about you….they don’t give a fuck about you… they don’t give a FUCK about you.

They don’t care about you at all… at all… AT ALL.  And nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. Thats what the owners count on. The fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant of the big red, white and blue dick thats being jammed up their assholes everyday, because the owners of this country know the truth.

Its called the American Dream,because you have to be asleep to believe it.

 

--George Carlin


 

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 04:42 | 1164418 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Yep. George "got it" early. If you look at all his old work, I don't know if he is a Paul Revere comedian or a counter-intuitive Agent Provocateur.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 06:08 | 1164469 hardcleareye
hardcleareye's picture

I like George's work, but he is extremely vulgar.  I was thinking of showing this to my granddaughter but didn't really want to have to explain what sodomy is in the context of discussing/explaining his point. ;-)

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 10:21 | 1164982 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

They're are just profane words. It's far better than showing her acts of brutality against fellow humans, which are shown on G rated television shows - even basic cable - all the time, let alone real acts on the nightly news, even of children being maimed by sadistic adults.

But one could always strike the offending words, and the message lives on.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 05:25 | 1164445 MSimon
MSimon's picture

Would you rather be the richest man on earth in 100 AD or in the bottom 10% of the US in 2011?

 

I'm in the bottom 10% and I'll take it over 100 AD rich any day.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 06:00 | 1164467 hardcleareye
hardcleareye's picture

I think you missed the point.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 07:30 | 1164534 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

No he didnt.

He said he is not jealous of other people having money.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 05:28 | 1164446 MSimon
MSimon's picture

I don't particularly care about the top guys. But I never had much envy.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 02:54 | 1164362 Anonymouse
Anonymouse's picture

Baby needs a new pair of shoes.  Come on, seven!

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 03:26 | 1164386 Irwin Fletcher
Irwin Fletcher's picture

Expert opinions at DRW trading? Maybe if you can drag the irates away from the ping pong table and cafeteria food.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 05:03 | 1164429 TumblingDice
TumblingDice's picture

We need to bring back the deus ex machina. This shit is getting repetitive and lame.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 05:22 | 1164440 MSimon
MSimon's picture

Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell and Eric Cantor, the No. 2 Republican in the House of Representatives, fired the opening shots in what is expected to be a bitter fight with the White House over increasing the U.S. borrowing limit to enable the country to keep paying its debts.

Increasing its debts is more like it.


Wed, 04/13/2011 - 07:20 | 1164526 greenkyle
greenkyle's picture

Anyone seen this going around?

 

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in TARP money, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes? Yeah, me neither.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 09:05 | 1164714 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

It is amazing how much america.has changed.

Envy used to be a sin and people were suposed to be proud and self reliant.

Now the lower classes are just neocommunists.

I guess i am one of the last real americans left.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 09:46 | 1164863 Founders Keeper
Founders Keeper's picture

[I guess i am one of the last real americans left.]---topcallingtroll

We'll be looking for you at Camp FEMA.

 

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 07:32 | 1164537 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Shut it down republicans.

I am in cash for the time being.
I will pick up the pieces.

It is time to quit enslaving our children with more debt.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 07:32 | 1164538 max2205
max2205's picture

So now that everyone is screaming about commodities and fuel prices Ben has used his tool Goldman and the rest of the PDs to create a dip in those prices by downgrading. These prices won't go down much as Ben wants that price pressure on the upside to reinflate ( his view). Ben is frozen between higher rates which he can afford the 30 yr to go to 4.9% or so and the SPX dip to 1250 ish. If he is lucky those will be the top end ranges in hopes everyone gets lulled into sucking what are now elevated prices. Ben has helped the banks and is now focused on getting Obummer reelected. That's all that matters for 1.75 years

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 09:20 | 1164771 SilverBaron
SilverBaron's picture

Just a headfake. BTFD on Oil, Gold, Silver.  O's only chance is for the right to be fractured into 2 or three camps.  I think he's done.  He'll still get 90 percent of the black vote, but the rest will abandon him.  He failed on too many promises.  They were just campaign rhetoric.

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 08:18 | 1164619 colonial
colonial's picture

OB when he voted not to increase the debt limit...

 

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 08:32 | 1164640 dootyfree
dootyfree's picture

When are yall going to learn the debt ceiling is irrelevant.  It is all political theartre. 

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 08:59 | 1164698 spacemonkey4
spacemonkey4's picture

Bachmann>?

Wed, 04/13/2011 - 09:00 | 1164701 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

I sure hate to be such a troll.

Shut it down. I dont care.
People with brains and the ability to
work hard and take risk can bounce
back from anything.

Absolute wealth is not as important as
relative wealth anyway.

If I have the best mud hut and the most cows
I will still get all the women.

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