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The Declaration Of Debt Independence
From WilliamBanzai7:
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I agree that representative democracy in the networked age is ridiculous. In general where you have a center of power you just provide a target for psychopathic power freaks to infiltrate. Those bastards have always been so much _better_ at grabbing power than decent people, but give them cell phones, email, VPNs and vast black budgets and they're in control-freak heaven.
Succeptibility to covert power grabs has always been a primary flaw of representative democracy. And without electronic networks and security based on encryption, there's not much in the way of better alternatives for anything much bigger than a small village.
However _with_ the speed and widespread information awareness possible with electronic networking, the mechanics of large scale direct citizen-run democracy are entirely feasible. The political implementation details present a few problems, but the experiment absolutely deserves to be tried.
The elite kleptocrat classes will resist any such scheme to their last breath, since they know it would mean their last breath very quickly in any case, as they lost control of the secrets of their past misdeeds.
I'm fine with that. Let them resist. Will make the hunt more sporting, and the kill more satisfying.
Depends. I do not think that it is doable nor efficient, that citizens manually run everything, without any higher level entities. I consider individualistic anarchists nuts for more than one reason, but the most important one being that it does not scale. Higher order taskforces will appear, one way or another.... and just denying it doesn't do anything about handling it efficiently.
However, i do consider it entirely feasible, that citizens could on a per-case basis veto unpopular decisions, as well as on a per-case basis bring in own proposals. So, neither "citizens decide everything" nor "supers decide everything"... but instead a combination of both aspects, where the default case is, that supers propose, and subs can just filter out the undesired ones and bring in own proposals. The requirement of such a mutual consensus would also support more communication between supers and subs, to avoid conflicts already in the design phase.
Sure, it may not be perfect.... but do we need perfection? How much of the current crap couldn't happen, if politicians couldn't push through decisions, with whom over 70% of the population disagrees? Then on top of this think away unbacked fiat, and strict per-year budget deficit limits, and what would civilization look like today?
Exellent comment Rynak.
This is (in my mind) the structure as adopted in our founding documents. The "subs" being the individual states the "supers" being the central government.
The recognition of the individual states power (being closer to the desires of the people within those states) would have a moderating influence on federal law proposals I would think.
It is a compact of individual states binding themselves together that forms this nation into one unit anyways.
One can call it nullification or whatever they want but the implication is real, less power to a centralized authority, more power to local & state authority that is closer to the people.
The series of checks and balances on the system has, over time, been usurped by the "supers" to the point where it feels its "one size fits all" approach is the best and only approach.
It can never be, it only leads to dissention between all of us and ultimately to tyranny.
I consider it a misconception to believe there is naturally such a high workload in governance, that a whole class of people are required to manage it.
When you look at the size and complexity of governments today, one could be forgiven for assuming there's a lot to do to run a country, keep the laws updated, and so on.
But really, the only thing the size of present governments shows, is what happens when you create a class of people who are paid to make things more complicated, in order to justify their own existence. While also building in as much extortionist profit for themselves as possible.
Result- an insanely overcomplicated structure of law and governance, that is now completely untenable and guaranteed to experience some kind of collapse/crisis/revolution fairly soon. The unworkable level of complexity and consequent instability and fraud in commerce today is also a symptom of the same problem.
I'm pretty sure that with the right kind of constitutional basis, that (among other things) imposed an upper limit on the total size of all legislation (perhaps by specifiying a word-count ceiling, and quite a small one at that), things could be kept simple enough that direct democracy wouldn't be all that much work.
You'd need a scheme for defining the scope of actions, much as we have local, state and national government structures. A scheme for anyone to propose measures, then an interval of voting up or down in a queue, before final voting on the most upvoted, etc. Non-compulsory voting, bearing in mind that any measure that got sneaked through by a small group could be immediately countered by those who hadn't noticed. The whole thing could be structured very much like some kind of multi-layered public net forum.
One key point being that with only the people who's lives would actually be impacted voting, and those people having better things to do with their time, there might not be all that much 'churn'. It might even get to a point where the laws were rarely changed at all, other than for real (gasp) need. Also interesting to see whether people experiencing their own decisions influencing their own lives, would cause them to develop a sense of responsibility and obligation to educate themselves on the issues. Maybe not, but we'll never know till we try it. It's for sure that handing responsibility to a bunch of elected representatives doesn't encourage much sense of personal responsibility in most people.
I'd also very much like to see what would happen if the people were able to propose and carry resolutions such as 'arrest and try for conspiracy and complicity in mass murder, the owners of the major media corporations.' Something of a moot point though - difficult to get to that situation other than via revolution, in which case those individuals would probably already be dead.
So many other interesting things could be done. Abolition of corporate personhood? Elimination of victimless crime laws? Elimination of personal income tax? Resetting copyright & patents to sensible scale and duration? Truth in Media requirements? Universal debt jubilee, reversion to precious metals currency, casting down of the bankers and all their abstract extortionist schemes and structures... annnnd, they're gone! The predatory Elites, that is.
There's some support for the general principle that what ultimately brought down many societies through history, was an accumulation of systemic complexity, to levels unsustainable given the available resources. For instance, ref 'The Collapse of Complex Societies' by Tainter.
Societies are almost never able to deliberately simplify, to cut their operating overheads. Even when they absolutely must to survive. What happens when the pool of available resources becomes unable to meet ever-increasing demands due to rising complexity combined with natural events, is the society goes into chaotic collapse. It may recover to some extent, but more often it simply ceases to exist as a society.
When i wrote that higher level entities will appear anyways, i wasn't talking about the insane buerocracies which nowadays governance involves. I was talking about something much more simple. Something that in conceptual structure isn't even restricted to humans.
Even when we get to a really low scale - like, let's say just a single factory - then there will be people who's task is on the scale of the entire factory and the environment in which it exists. For example, you will have people monitoring supplies and products factory-wide, and arrange importing supplies to the factory, and exporting products elsewhere. Those people's task isn't concerned with which button to press on a machine, or where to move a container to.
This doesn't exclude those people getting proposals from those working on a lower scale - it doesn't even exclude those working on a lower scale saying "nope, no way!" - but there need to be people thinking on a bigger scale - and once you consider, that there may be even more than just two levels of scale - lets say 10 - it isn't efficient if everyone has to think about everything on every scale all the time. There may be interaction, and IMO there definatelly should be to avoid shisms, but it just isn't feasible for everyone having to consider everything all the time.
And once you have people working on different scales, the question appears how the different levels of scale interact with each other. The current approach is a top-down command hierachy, where decisions only travel downwards in scale. Typical run-of-the-mill individualist anarchists equate multiple levels scale with the top-down command hierachy, and thus want to dream of abolishing levels of scale alltogether (WTF?)? I instead - as in so many cases - am concerned with the "interface" and "relationship" between scales: I reject an exclusively top-down command hierachy, but i do not reject levels of scale, and rules of interaction, alltogether - rather, i just want it to work "different".
I.e. since yesterday, i've made a shift in the approach to my model - where previously, i considered supers to do the design most of the time, and subs mostly just vetoing undesired designs, i now instead consider making everything optionally dual. That is: BOTH, super and subs can be involved in designing, voting (decision) and funding... and if the amount of subs-vote participation surpasses a certain threshold (i.e. 50%), the subs-vote overrides the super vote.
The difference is that a veto by subs (or an agreement), does no longer need to be declared. To take a state as an example: Every citizen of that state would be able to vote on every single policy, if he wanted to, without any significant hurdles - and if citizen vote participation reaches a threshold (i.e. 50%), it overrides what the state board (the "politicians") voted for.
With such a model, you could have whatever you want: Want to let supers (i.e. politicians) design and decide everything? Can be done, if just no sub (i.e. citizen) participates. Want subs to selectively interrupt in important decisions? Can do that too. Want to attempt to let subs design and decide everything? Well, good luck with that, but you can attempt so. The model allows it - it just doesn't demand it.
You need more than just the ability to participate, for this. Keyword: Efficient information. Any "right" can be made ineffective, by just making it difficult to use that right - including obscurity and lack of easily accessable and understandable information. And in addition to this, there is competence. Let me just mention, that i am not aware of any country, that teaches basic logics in basic school, even though most teach maths. I'm not talking about anything advanced - just the basics, and perhaps popular fallacies.
Not only complexity, but the typical reason for that complexity. I know of two general things, that almost always guarantee increased complexity, and frightenly, they also almost always are the primary factors for complexity-bloat:
1. Patching/Compensating discrepancies, instead of fixing them. Rule of thumb: Actual solutions and rootlevel overhauls reduce complexity, while patches increase it. Reason is simple: With a patch, you add something on top of the existing... with a fix, you remove the conflict itself, which often also results in a cascade of other things being exposed as patch and becoming unnecessary.
2. Dishonesty and deception. Every deception is only possible because there is at least one contradiction, which isn't detected. For it not to be detected, it must be obscured .... with artificial complexity and/or more contradictions. In principle, the error needs to be burried or hidden by other things - or it just needs to be a total brainfuck which no honest and sane person can introspect anymore.
Great stuff William.
Though shouldn't this be the "Debtclaration of Independence"?
I had one version with that title. I also had Declaration Ending Indebtedness Dependence.
Four score and eighteen years ago, our forebankers brought forth on this earth a new currency, conceived in debt, and dedicated to the proposition that all men must be serfs.
Now we are engaged in a great recession, testing whether that currency, or any currency so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure.
Banzai,
Excellent verbage and work. Now for the blood, where can thou get it for the doc?
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/maid_cleaning_up_as_hooker_...
NY cops say she was doing more than just cleaning the rooms. I think she was attempting to extort and blackmail DSK. This whole case was a rush to judgment and a travesty of justice. This guy, will come out of this thing smelling like a rose and perhaps , will be the new President of France.
Smelling like a rose would disqualify him.
Sorry but I don't buy it. This entire episode is not what it appears to be.
DSK was totally set up. She had a $100,000 deposit in her bank account. Question is, did it delay enough the reason he was here. Something to do with the purity of gold in Fort Knox.
Exxon reports crude spilling into Yellowstone river. Emergency cleanup declared
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304084004576422083662355602.html/p>
Nothing matters, Obama is golfing, and that is news.
Awesome concept.....but won't go over in "Entitlements USA" where we live today. Liberty is a two sided coin, the other side being personal responsibility. Can't have one without the other indefinitely.
When asked how men might best maintain their freedom, Agis, son of Archidamus of Sparta replied, "By having contempt for death."
Free men with no fear are a dangerous force.
Very apropos.
+1
well these days those who feel they are collectively condemned to die end up as "kamikaze" bombs. So contempt of death is fine as sign of valor but having an ideal as well of civilization is even better. Not so easy in complex societies.
Sign me up Bill, Thanks and great work for a weekend I would not normally celebrate. I'm always up for the destruction of debt slavery.
When asked how men might best maintain their freedom, Agis, son of Archidamus of Sparta replied, "By having contempt for death."
Free men with no fear are a dangerous force.
Weird, i'd say there's a lot of fear today.
Oh, you mean fear about things that are not illusions?
No fear other than what the body itself must generate. If you continue to push through and function clearly in battle then you will be fine. If Death comes for you... at least you probably see it coming and go out happy.
But first, your burial arrangements and insurance is set up and some sort of instructions to your family is important. And when all of that is cleared out, you can then go into battle with a clear head, strong heart and a clarity unfettered by fear.
Remember to thank the Marine gaurding the gates on the other side before you go in.
Sign me in.
The Bhuddist death meditations are good for this.
Empty-handed I enter the world;
Barefoot I leave it.
My coming, my going;
Two simple happenings;
That got entangled.
~Kozan Ichigyo
He meant that a man who does not fear death is truly free. For only by fear of loss are we held in thrall to those who would rule.
hmmm...ok, this is gonna need to be put on hold for a bit
a more pressing issue of peak everything is crowding out individual voice and the prosecution of criminals - an effort to "form a more perfect union" such as this piece opines is of no import at this moment in time.
talked to a good friend in the Kerry Group last night - inputs for lactose/protein is up 25% and stores have not priced in currently. the JIT is about to about to get very expensive and very irregular.
http://youtu.be/9DkaRUtp3w8
Has this been posted here yet?
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=189249
Whaddya know--I'm not the only one who sees this debacle as a covert selective default borne by the bottom 60% . . . to the benefit of the pricks who both don't need it and have everything to gain by that default.
OK, no trading blog post, here goes a Quiz on the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America.
Take the Quiz Here, can you get 20 for 20?
http://oahutrading.blogspot.com/2011/07/independence-day-quiz.html
16.
That thing had some really hard questions!
I got 15 first time, and 20 the second time,
I posted a new quiz on Constitution on same link
I hereby declare that I am lifelong disciple of BANZAI!!!
Thomas Fucking William Bonzai7 Jefferson.
This is a good documentary about debt and the loss of liberty. It was done by NIA. Seemed appropriate seeing as it's independance day weekend.
http://missivesinstitute.blogspot.com/2011/07/when-keeping-it-real-goes-wrong.html
I'm in. Sign me up. God forbid though that we actually make the history books. Could you imagine generations of starry-eyed kids reading about us monkeys?
Favorite quote for the weekend: “Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.”-Mark Twain
In the future, Chinese will rewrite history. "The glorious smart Chinese introduced a better reserve currency to save the world from evil Jewish/American banksters gambling addiction and freed Americans from evils of consumerism and mass media"
Please add my nick.
WB7: Slap my goofy moniker on that thing, if you would.
Thanks. ;o)
You know it means you are willing to forfeit all property, no?
Hopefully you have some strawberry ones.
Sorry to spam but here is a good site with good links with an emphasis on being legitimate. No ads! Links to Zero Hedge, Chris Martenson .... etc. He/She/It is asking for links - send your favorite links.
http://grow-guides.blogspot.com/
Okay Tyler.
What about the people with three kids and a granddaughter? WTF are we supposed to do? I feel you Tyler. I respect you. I already have the answer, but I would feel more comfortable if I herd it from you too.
We would get creamed if we went for them straight on. I believe that straight on is rediculous.
So better tactics is the answer and curiously enough, we can't even talk about them!
Let freedom ring.
You are not powerless. You can politely convert some of the ignorant. This can be done politely, but persuasively because 90% of the problem in lack of awareness and understanding.
Brigadier: You don't think we're just going to walk out of India!
Gandhi: Yes. In the end, you will walk out. Because 100,000 Englishmen simply cannot control 350 million Indians, if those Indians refuse to cooperate.
The american dream:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPWH5TlbloU
Exxon oil spills in Yellowstone River, forces evacuations
Spill stretches over dozens of miles; not sure what caused pipeline break
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43619388/ns/us_news-environment/
Heavy Hitters(1 result)
Lobbying Client(3 results)
PACs(1 result)
Top Contributor to Member(287 results)
Hide All
Top Contributor to Candidate(64 results)
Hide All
Affiliate of Heavy Hitter(16 results)
Hide All
http://www.opensecrets.org/usearch/index.php?q=exxon&cx=010677907462955562473%3Anlldkv0jvam&cof=FORID%3A11#831
But you are free to own Exxon stocks. If you think Exxon makes so much profit, then why not buy call options worth 100k instead of going to college to learn stuff you can learn for free on the internet?
In communism/socialism, goverment bureaucrats control Exxon and funnels profit to their friends. You don't get to participate in the profit at all.
The financial crisis was due to banks abusing their power to make loans as the middle man knowing that they will not be held accountable and will get a bailout. Not Exxon.
did you see the Oil Spill in the Middle of Yellow Stone National Park Covering 150 fucking miles you idiot?
Is that a blot on the Google Earth?
yellow stone stinks of surfur.
And in case of oil spill news, short whoever spilled it.
Exxon exists because people drive. So get off of your high horse and walk or ride a bicycle.
That caldera is going to blow.
This is bullish for rebuilding the Western U.S. from the ground up.
Is there anyone on ZH you haven't insulted needlessly?
This is Fight Club..
it is NOT!
Whine club!
Bitch Club!
My Pussy Hurts Club!
Shoe Addicts Anon!
My Little Pony Club!
Does My Ass Look Big Club!
My Fav Tampon Club!
None of these things belong in fight club... and you only what equal rights as far as pay.. because we both know that you dont really want to be treated like a man with that slick mouth you have pencil neck. Somone might punch you in the mouth for talking and acting like a man.. thusly accidently breaking your neck.. which someone would then have to feel guilty about! so equal rights girl. try to bear in mine that you dont really want what you think you already have.
Bravo sir. Women are irrelevant in the face of history because they desire comfort and safety above all else. Even preferring outright slavery to confrontation.
http://news.yahoo.com/billions-worth-treasure-found-indian-temple-183022...
will this cause a movement in the force , on sunday night?
Please add oldnbroke to a noble cause-Thanks
Have you lost enough money yet listneing to MSM that "everything is fine" and "house prices never go down?"
If you are just begging to lose more money then try buying a house in one of these 15 cities:
The 15 Worst Housing Markets For The Next Five Years
1. Miami
2. Atlanta
3. Nassau
4. Fort Lauderdale
5. Midland, Tx
6. wash dc
7. Abilene, Tx
8. Morgantown
9. Austin, Tx
10. Cedar falls
11. Baton rouge
12. Amarillo, Tx
13. Lancaster
14. Monroe
15. Shreveport
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/worst-rea...
Better grab one of these ranch style houses fast....before their price drops 30-40%!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiqEacwADlE
http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jun/21/business/fi-housing21
UCLA senior economist Christopher Thornberg debunked myth of real estate scam since 2005
Ron Paul messing with the Fed = funny:
http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/91224/ron-paul-debt-ceiling-federal-...
So let me get this straight, Ron Paul is advocating that an easy out (forgive me if I am missing the point entirely and the Centre for Economic and Policy Research is not some souped up equivalent of Long/Short Capital) is to simply say that the printing of electronic money to fund the continual increases in Government spending and tax cuts via persistent (and recently escalating) fiscal deficits is fine?
Ok, I guess we can just all not pay taxes and have the Government spend without limit and repeat the monetisation of deficits forever. Hmm...so why is there any poverty in the world or denial of free health, pensions and education? Ron Paul was either joking or has gone senile.
I was assuming Paul was simply proposing something that would be so offensive to the Global Bank Cartel in return for their constantly insulting the intelligence of Americans who are paying attention to this great farce. So I am hoping it was a joke delivered with a straight face.
HEY for those who never read the Articles of Confederation, the Constitution, and the Amendments (hint Amendments 1 though 10 are call the Bill of Rights).
All below are Word Docs, they are easy to find on the net, if you don't have Word.
You
can read all the docs below in less than 1 hour. Misinformation is
rampant concerning these basic laws of the US. Read them, you will be
really glad you did.
Print them, go get a sun tan and read them. They really aren't that complicated. Really, a 7th grader could understand them.
HEY
and just in case you got that "all men are created equal" thing stuck
in your head...it was here, in the Declaration of Independence. Just
keep in mind, this was just a declaration, it is not part of the rules
by which we are supposed to live.
http://oahutrading.blogspot.com/2011/07/happy-4th.html
How bad is it? Well, it’s so bad nobody wants to claim the Obama economy anymore. In fact, responsibility for the economy is such a political hot potato, Senator Chuck Schumer is claiming that the Republicans are trying to sabotage the economy on purpose – to defeat Obama in 2012.
Says Washington Post’s Greg Sargent on The Plum Line: “Pressed by a reporter on whether he really believes the GOP wants to destroy the economy on purpose, Schumer went further than ever before and took this out of the realm of the hypothetical.
“’It’s a thought you don’t want to believe,’ Schumer said, ‘but every day they keep giving us more and more evidence that there’s no choice but to answer Yes.’”
Well, he ought to know; Schumer single handedly destroyed IndyMac.
In the midst of claiming that their leader is establishing an improved economy, the charge of sabotage is nothing more than admittance that there’s no recovery and that someone – if not the Republicans then the Democrats – has landed us in an economic crisis.
What have Lloyd Blankfein, the bankers and the politicians sacrificed? I’ll tell you. They’ve sacrificed us.
I said it, and I'll say it again...Schumer is a baboon disguised as a chimpanzee.
Schumer is a ^degenerate baboon disguised as a ^syphalitic chimpanzee.
(starring in his self produced summer blockbuster dances with douche-nozzles.)
Hey, Banzai, please add me as a signatory to your DOI.
Screwmer is a demon disguised as a man.
Screwtape the senator.
Lets' talk reality JR. Two years ago you were talking down the (so) called Conservative party.
Oil( nat. gas) is the answer, and you know it! The Bakken reserves in North Dakota and Wyoming. The Texas Fracking reserves. Eff. the liberals, and their chinese counterparts! They get nothing and like it! YEN!
The EPA wants Texas dead. They are doing their best to punish Texas for the sin of showing a more conservative government actually makes jobs.
Those FOOLS in Washington and Wall Street have NO IDEA how much they have lost in the past three years.
Thanks WB7
WB7
That made me smile -- but how can you implement anything like this in such a locally captured regime?
The original DOI related to a colonial oppressor nearly 4000 miles and several weeks away by the transport of the day. The current oppressors could be anywhere on the planet (yes - most will be in the lower 48)
Also, the DOI led to a lot of bloodshed. TPTB hold all of the levers of power which means that 'displacing' them is unlikely to be bloodless and more likely to be a peoples uprising right after Dancing with Dimwits is cancelled.
I hate to say it but Bin Laden showed you how to 'displace' banksters, unfortunately that's called terrorism.
Im your Doc Holiday! (Beat it)
Old western "Doc Holiday" .
Forget debt. Give me liberty from fools.
BIS or ECB? Apparantly the EUR is God's gift.
If only the Debt was the only problem now...
Must see video:
Peak Oil presentation May 2011 U.S. House Session
http://sufiy.blogspot.com/2011/06/peak-oil-may-2011-us-house-session-ilc...
Videos are `passe.
Reads like a ZH manifesto William. Please add Husk-Erzulie if you are pulling signers from this thread. :-)
Good luck /french/ protoge` spun wrong / silly me.
There's no self determination or freedom without economic freedom.
Prosecute for Treason.. the Lobby / the Lobby Whores and the AAA Rated Corporations that own the Lobby and Lobby Whores.
Got Rope?
(Randomly inserted but serious lament...)
I was at a local town-band-on-the-common-with-free-stuffed-potatoes event on Friday. A good time was had by all in the crisp and exceedingly comfortable twilight hours.
As I sat in my foldaway chair sipping away, I couldn't help but notice the several dozen children skipping along to the beat of the band in the matted-down grass in front of the stage.
And it hit me that with all that we know and discuss here at ZH, these kids are in for an incredibly challenging life ahead, through no fault of their own.
Kids express their emotions unabated, and this night was filled with nothing but carefree smiles of ice-cream smeared darlings, content as can be with the music roaring and close family all around.
O if time would stand still.
Selah
Brother! the kids will have a far better life than we had! for the Government will be cleansed along with purging the Lobby as well as the Owners of the Lobby and the Lobby Whores! The kids should have an easier time than God Willing You or I have.
One of the best articles, by one of the best minds, economist and historian Prof. Michael Hudson, on the situation in Greece ~ and debt slavery in general:
http://michael-hudson.com/2011/06/whither-greece/
Bought another 30 ounces of silver yesterday. I'm going to have a happy 4th of July.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
WB7, please add me as well. Great Work!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHtHE_ukpug
How many million views?
Inevitably,some of the people who have been robbed of everything will resort to alternate responses, happily i am not one of them but the writing is on the wall my brothers and sisters,God bless America.
Count me in
Hile Troy
Sign me up.
I would like to be included as well!
Ok, we are working on the full version.