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Do You See What Happens, Larry, When Government Motors Stuff Channels?

Tyler Durden's picture


There is a reason Zero Hedge has been on GM's derriere over the past year in disclosing the firm's not so covert channel stuffing mandate. Just released is the validation:


Translation: more furloughs, less tax receipts by Tim Jeethner.

As a reminder from yesterday:

GM Channel Stuffing Hits Record In April

Earlier today, GM posted better than expected April car sales, with
total US sales up 26.4% on expectations of 14%. How much of this is due
to a Toyota impairment is unclear. What is clear is that channel
stuffing at Government Motors, whose Chinese sales are far more
important than US sales these days, just hit a new all time record of 577,000, higher than the previous record of 574,000 from March, and 149,000 higher
compared to a year ago. The good thing is that GM will never be able to
complain about lack of inventory: it now has two and a half months
worth of sales equivalent parked on warehouse financed dealer
storefronts, in the form of rapidly depreciating autos.


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Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:03 | 1239883 plocequ1
plocequ1's picture

Is that you Larry? Is this me?

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:03 | 1239884 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Motorized Shit Bitchezzzz!!!

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:03 | 1239885 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Ooh, look at those horrible deflationary pressures ahead; as prices are slashed, "money will disappear from the economy", and the Fed will clearly need to print another $5tn.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:01 | 1239887 drink or die
drink or die's picture

They can use all that excess production capacity to make tanks when WW3 starts.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:19 | 1239968 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Wow. So if GM made 10,000 Main Battle Tanks, the US would need about 1.7 million mechanics for the tanks whick would drop the unemployment number and Obummer would get re-elected. What a plan.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:24 | 1240006 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

Where are they going to get all those Mechanics, Machinists, and Welders? Please remember that all our children go to university where they are indoctrinated and told they are too good for manual labour.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:33 | 1240048 Almost Solvent
Almost Solvent's picture

Forget the kids today - there are enough unemployed over 50 to put to work building tanks and guns and other deadly weapons.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:27 | 1240007 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

The headlight division could start cranking out grease guns like back in the day.

Or they could start producing bolt on kits for bicycles, so you can have some cargo capacity when the oil gives out.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:02 | 1239892 NotAllowed
NotAllowed's picture

I own a chevy 2500 with a 6.0 litre.  Awesome truck but terrible fuel mileage.  Cant wait till they make a fuel efficient full size truck capable of towing something decent.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:08 | 1239920 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

That's NotAllowed. 

No, sort of seriously, when do you think that will happen?

Only tangentially, did you see the documentary on why/how they killed the electric car? In particular the part where the GM mechanic said they would never need much maintenance at all (vastly, vastly fewer wear and tear and/or oily parts). What do you think is the most profitable part of a dealership. Did you say parts and service?! We have a winner! 

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 21:11 | 1241501 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture


"...why/how they killed the electric car?..."

Was that the coal-fired car?  or the nuclear car?  or the $41k car with the $9k subsidy that only Immelt can afford?  Thermo and engineering economy are so  '80s.

- Ned

Thu, 05/05/2011 - 02:05 | 1242134 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

"while the auto companies feared short term costs for EV development and long term revenue loss because EVs require little maintenance and no tuneups."

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:14 | 1239947 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

too bad there's this shit called physics that's in their way. 

No replacement for displacement.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:33 | 1240051 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

The law of thermodynamics can not be wished or legislated. It is what it is and in every case, you lose.

Gasoline engines need a 14 to 1 air-fuel ratio. Higher or lower ratios reduces power and efficiency. Modern fuel injection systems have maximized efficiency and so the only other option to improve fuel mileage is to make the vehicle lighter. This never works with trucks.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:07 | 1240257 Sancho Ponzi
Sancho Ponzi's picture

Uh, direct injection improves volumetric efficiency by allowing for higher compression ratios, and turbocharged vehicles typically obtain better than 100% volumetric effiency.

But those technologies require vision, money, and R&D. Sorry, GM.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:26 | 1240352 Andy_Jackson_Jihad
Andy_Jackson_Jihad's picture

Or operate on the lean side of stoicheometric. 

When coasting, my TDI ECU reports 0.0 ml of fuel per stroke is used.

Diesel bitches!

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 19:11 | 1241008 ICTruth
ICTruth's picture

Oh yea! I drive a 1996 tdi wagon. 53mpg


Wed, 05/04/2011 - 19:24 | 1241096 Antarctico
Antarctico's picture

Hybrid technology would be a good choice for a full sized truck.  Just think of all the kinetic energy that gets blasted out as heat every time you hit the brakes, but instead of being wasted as heat, it gets turned into electricity and that electricity gets stored for getting your big iron back up to speed.  GM's recent bullshit weak hybrid truck does not count as it was better at being an elaborate marketing gimmick than an efficient energy reclamation system.  On the other hand, Toyota's hybrid technology is both efficient and effective -- GM should license it like Ford already has.  One other nice thing about a full sized hybrid truck, outside of the much improved gas mileage, is electric motors have maximum torque at zero RPM, and that makes pulling away from a light with a big, honking trailer so much easier.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:04 | 1239896 Nolsgrad
Nolsgrad's picture


" if sales were to maintain course this year — that each dealership will only sell, on average, 84 vehicles in 2011. But that's actually good news. Because last year the average was 64 vehicles per dealership."

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 19:00 | 1240944 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Wow, 5 per month last year, but up to 7 this year.

Break out the champagne!

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:05 | 1239904 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

I saw the 9m figure. In 08 the banks were reckless (pun intended) 15-16 globally was the idea in 08. Knock the cost and some natural disasters(and dysfunctional banking) into the figures and the numbers, and we see 11.5. Not to mention the Junk in china, and That offsets Korea.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:06 | 1239910 oogs66
oogs66's picture

111 days of inventory of pick-up trucks...hmmmm

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:09 | 1239925 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Yea, and there are lines out the door of people jumping all over a new full size dually truck so 111 days is rock solid figure! Just like housing inventory supply numbers, housing sitting empty for 3 years are getting jumped on like free hookers today!

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 20:59 | 1241459 Thorny Xi
Thorny Xi's picture

Yeah, what's up with that?  I've thought it was just me, and the few places I was tracking on Zillow - places that have been listed for over 500 days - poof - bought up this past month.  Am I missing the free money giveaway?


Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:07 | 1239927 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

With skyrocketing gas prices into the summer and then the '12's coming out. 

Ouch, that's going to hurt.  

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:05 | 1239915 TheGreatPonzi
TheGreatPonzi's picture

Am I the only one amazed that Americans, for the most part, don't care about the fact their country has adopted central planning? 

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:09 | 1239931 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

I dont know if its that they 'dont care'...just that the vast majority americans are too damn stupid to have any idea whats really going on and how horrible it always ends up being. Theyre jamming the cars with groceries bought on food stamps for now and enjoying the big screen while stuffing their faces, we'll see how happy they are when its all gone soon.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:19 | 1239979 cossack55
cossack55's picture

I am getting very, very impatient. 

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:21 | 1239994 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

Being fatalistic here, but exactly what the hell is a person supposed to do about it?  Vote?  They did, had "landslides" with their tea party upset the apple cart candidates.  And not a single fucking thing changed. Hell, it didn't even slow down.  Nor will there be change, until those free groceries aren't being stuffed into cars that they can't afford to purchase gasoline for. 

The game is rigged, get your free groceries while you can, after all, you paid for them.  I recommend getting the big bags of pintos and rice, and a lot of iodized salt.

I do agree with you about the happy part though man,  all the ones conditioned to the easy path will fall over in droves, or follow the bread crumbs into camps? 

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:02 | 1240196 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

either that or the conditioned ones vote to have you conditioned also...  funny how that works...  [they're already breaking it off in asses of the last remaining holdouts of the middle class]

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:06 | 1239922 Blorf
Blorf's picture

Silver bubble, meet Chevy Silverado bubble

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:29 | 1240039 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Chevy Silverado meet $4.00+ gasoline.  Not a bubble, it's a reality.

If it makes you feel better, that Silverado would be a good investment to buy it now before your dollars are debased into nothingness.  You could actually live in a Silverado, at least.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:36 | 1240079 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

down by the river?   Oh, no, that would have to be a van.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:52 | 1240154 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Wherever the carp are biting!

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 23:04 | 1241848 wisefool
wisefool's picture

Naw. Americans are too lazy for that, but (as usual) the chinese are here to the rescue. The asian snakehead carp is reaching record numbers in north american waterways, and you dont even have to cast a line, bait a hook, or throw a net. they will literaly jump in the boat. 

So everybody get on those bad motorscooters, or pickup trucks, and pull sombody in a dinghy, panama canal style.

When you get those badboys into the kitchen, cook'em like you would a possum. Brine it for a couple of days, Pressure cook, pull the bones, deep fry, drain and rinse. put a 1/2 pound of salt, cayene, nitrites, nitrates into a ziplock bag with it and freeze it for two weeks.

Put it in the microwave, and douse it with sometype of HFC sauce. I'm loving it!

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:50 | 1240158 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

typically with missing engine and transmission.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:03 | 1240224 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Mis-matched door and quarter-panel colors...nice.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 20:45 | 1241410 Antarctico
Antarctico's picture

down by the river?

I want my steady diet of government cheese!

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:06 | 1239924 oogs66
oogs66's picture

Kentucky giving GM $7.5 million in incentives.  GM giving Kentucky 250 jobs.  $30k per job, yeah, economy is growing organically!

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:27 | 1240028 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

That's not even good math.  Incentives isn't cash out of pocket.  It's just cash not collected that would have been, right?  And it isn't $30k per job.  It's $30k over (insert number of years here) per job in incentives.

Fucking Christ...I see you're taking the Glenn Beck home study courses.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:39 | 1240095 Non Passaran
Non Passaran's picture

But the bottom line is those $30K/job over X years will have to be taken from other, tax-paying folks.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:51 | 1240160 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

That was Kentucky's decision or GM's?  There isn't anything 'taken' from anybody.  They are incentives (which, I'm sure are probably 'abatements').

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:12 | 1240271 oogs66
oogs66's picture

Was it the decision of the taxpayer's of Kentucky, or one powerful official who did it for his region and because he enjoyed all the expensive dinners while the terms of jobs vs 'abatements' was negotiated?  Hasn't GM in particular received enough from the government for the jobs it produces?

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:22 | 1240325 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

they fired everybody.  Pontiac gone/Saturn gone.  I do agree "Los Angeles was a mistake."

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:22 | 1240332 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

So, you think GM forced itself onto the taxpayers of Kentucky?  What if I told you that several states were fighting for GM to produce there?

It's not in the best interest of the federal taxpayers for GM to take the best deal possible?  You can't have it both ways.

It's better for all the Big 3 to liquidate and hand over the entire industry to foreign firms.  That's the best option now?

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:12 | 1239937 jwfxfox11
jwfxfox11's picture

Walter: You're going to enter a world of pain, son.  We know this is your homework.  We know you stole a car.

Dude: And the fucking money!

Walter: And the fucking money.  And we know that this is your homework, Larry.

Walter: You're gonna KILL your FATHER, Larry!!!

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:14 | 1239958 Extremist Tan
Extremist Tan's picture

"Oh no, he's sick."  We need to draw a line in the sand.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:17 | 1240291 Problem Is
Problem Is's picture

Dude: "Oh, Jesus, what's that smell, man?"

Auto Circus Cop: "Yeah, probably a vagrant slept in the car. Or maybe just used it as a toilet and moved on."

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 18:20 | 1240728 augie
augie's picture

I was wonder where all the urban achieves were....


Wed, 05/04/2011 - 20:05 | 1241248 Problem Is
Problem Is's picture

Dude: "Different mothers, huh? Racially he's pretty cool?"

Thu, 05/05/2011 - 06:58 | 1242291 augie
augie's picture

there should seriously be a lebowski thread every day.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:17 | 1239960 Cdad
Cdad's picture

Well then, I can hardly wait to hear from Joe "my ideas are very important and I love me" Teranova of Nanosecond Money fame about his call yesterday to go long GM.  Of course, everyone here has known about the glaring problems at this government entity thanks to TD's relentless hounding.

Let's go, Joe...tell us to buy declining production, declining real sales, and declining asset values!  These are superdy duper bullish catalysts, right?  

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:23 | 1240001 Cone of Uncertainty
Cone of Uncertainty's picture

Utah, get me two!

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:25 | 1240010 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

I think I'm the only one that lives in Detroit and works in the auto industry.

This is really a bullshit way of measuring this.  They want 45-60 days worth of inventory at the dealership.  The more they sell, the higher this number goes and should go.  After the collapse (and, yes, the C4C debacle) they dealerships were basically depleted and many closed.

I don't see anything dramatic in our baglog report for GM that would indicate a major decline or increase.  I suspect that they will cut truck sales since gas is $4.00+ now.  But, that will be offset with car production and especially small cars.

Each of the Big 3 are steadily gaining market share back.  I would think that's unquestionably good but, obviously, the maniacs here are still cheering their hopeful death (as if that's somehow good at this moment).

Anyway, this is really ridiculous.

Why do you people relish in wishing the Big 3 perish?  Honestly, I don't get it. 

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:31 | 1240052 Cone of Uncertainty
Cone of Uncertainty's picture

Because unions suck.

Because the cars they build sucks.

Because a socialized car industry sucks.



Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:33 | 1240071 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Thanks for the input, Skeeter.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:03 | 1240223 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

scoff it off all you want, but he's right...  The simple fact is that I want not a single cent of my money going to subsidize a failed institution...  whether it make trucks or mortgage backed securities...

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:06 | 1240249 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

That's your decision.  I don't understand it.  But, I agree that you have the power to not do it.

So, you drive a Ford then?

I have a Lincoln MKS ecoboost...nice ride.  Wife drives a 2006 300C, also nice.

What are you driving?

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 18:08 | 1240651 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

No, actually I don't have the power to keep my money going to failed institutions...  the government has ensured that...

And no, I don't drive a ford...  I drive japanese...  and for no less than 10 years per vehicle...  with no major repairs...  ever...

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:33 | 1240070 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

Because they don't deserve to stand if they couldn't stand on their own.  And if the host dies, all the parasites inside it leave, too.

Sorry about your employment situation and I don't know if you're in one of the unions or not, but it seems from this side of the river that those boys really shit in the nest.  Not my job to freaking bail them out of their self inflicted socialist hell.

You might have had the bad luck to get a job in a zombie production model. Or you might be a big time union man and deserve what you're going to get and even more for being one of the culprits.  In either case, get what you can while you can.

We all had the bad luck to be on the ride just in time for it to jump the tracks.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:40 | 1240101 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

I'm a Vice President at a parts supplier and I worked my way up from college as an entry level Engineer.

90% of the persons in the industry are not UAW affliliated.  I'm not sure how that's continually lost of people.  It's not just the Big 3.  It's the suppliers all the way down to the raw materials.

I said what is the point of cheering them into hell now.

I can assure you that GM and Chrysler can (and are) increasing their market share again.  That means they have a chance to 'pay back' their bailout.

Save your hatred for the Fed, Timmay, and (for fuck sake) the banks.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:05 | 1240238 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Because perpetuating something wrong does not make it right...  I don't think most people stopped cheering for the demise of GM...

That said, if you guys want to discount your piece of shit cars enough, I'll buy one.  Until then, I'll stick with japanese.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:10 | 1240282 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

OK.  Well, they are gaining market share (all 3).  So, evidently, not everyone agrees they are shit.

But, see, I don't proclaim the Japanese and German cars to be shit.  They aren't.  Neither are Detroit's.

Now, the Koreans cars...those are shit.  If you've ever been in a Russian made car...those are shit.

Hate the system all you want.  Why do you hate the actual people working in the industry and why do you think they are incapable of engineering good cars?  That's just ignorant. 

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:39 | 1240420 Andy_Jackson_Jihad
Andy_Jackson_Jihad's picture

Maybe not incapable but likely out of practice.  When was the last time any US company came up with a truely new idea and not just a slight change or re-hash of a decades old design?  I see ford is advertising a new way of syncing up with microsoft?  wow, sign me up *thumbs down, fart noise*

How much has the basic design of cars changed anyway in the last 100 years?  Its still a reciprocating IC engine with 4 wheels and some seats made with steel.

Success in the car biz is about costs and can't engineer around legacy union costs.

Also, Purdue sucks.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:42 | 1240469 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Oh, you want the Jetson's car like the Japanese make (seriously, what the fuck are you talking about?).

You hate the Volt concept also, right?  But, you hate the standard technologies also.

Sorry about your gas issue.  Try to avoid spicy foods.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:50 | 1240537 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Whether or not you're capable of designing good cars is anyone's guess because we don't know because you don't MAKE good cars... 

What does market share have to do with whether you make a good car?  I agree that people may be jumping at incentives to get in your rides...  and that all of our governmental agencies desperately purchase your vehicles...  but I'm not sure market share equates to good...  Cars, like most everything else, are becoming throw away items...  use them for 5 years and dump them...  well, I don't and, as a result, I won't buy GM.


Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:56 | 1240578 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

You honestly have no idea what you're talking about.  Toyota started the incentive war.  I know you don't want to accept that.  So, I don't expect you to.

I also don't expect you to understand that Federal government agencies should buy domestic vehicles (just as they do in Japan, Germany, Korea, Australia, and China).

You hate GM like I hate rap music.  Fine with me.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 18:13 | 1240666 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

What does starting the incentive war have to do with GM offering more incentives at the moment to generate more market share?

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 18:14 | 1240687 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

You seriously don't understand the industry.  I'm sure I don't understand the industry you're working in.

I don't understand airfare either...or the price of beer at the Tigers game...or why cereal cost so god damn much...or baby formula...or why coke changed it's formula.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 19:56 | 1241226 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

so how do these incentives stack up assclown?

Further, answer the question...  avoidance is an admission.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 19:07 | 1240970 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Wait, rap is now TBTF?

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 19:27 | 1241114 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Ain't dat the troof.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:37 | 1240082 Cdad
Cdad's picture

Why do you people relish in wishing the Big 3 perish?  Honestly, I don't get it. 





Brother Boiler,

Because we prefer real companies that do not require government support.  We don't care for crony capitalists who run to the US treasury and loot the place so that they can keep their Cadillac health care plans while selling cars at a loss.  It is no less repulsive, the bailout of GM or GS.

Instead of taking the hit they needed to take, restructuring wages and benefits, they chose to hose their shareholders and their bondholders.  And today, they send their reps in to smooth up on Obama.

There is nothing to like in GM.  Same at Chrysler.  Now Ford....those guys are doing it right.

As for living in Detroit, how it that going?  Seriously curious.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:46 | 1240130 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

If it were the Big 6 and 3 had to go, fine.  But, it wasn't.  It was the Big 3.  You can't simply flush out the entire core manufacturing base of the country.

Hey, I'm all for pounding GM and Chrysler back into reality and forcing them to pay every red cent back.  Even if it takes a long, long, long time.  They owe; they pay it.

But, the industry has gotten it's act together.  It is better.  It had to be.  And, they are starting to mak some good market share advances.

Ford is doing great.  That's right.  But, GM and Chrysler are doing much better also.

GM will survive.  Ford will flourish.  Chrysler is (and always has been) a wild card.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 19:56 | 1241219 Tejano
Tejano's picture

"You can't simply flush out the entire core manufacturing base of the country."

Can't?  Look around you - fait accompli.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:52 | 1240156 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

Instead of taking the hit they needed to take, restructuring wages and benefits, they chose to hose their shareholders and their bondholders...


Preach it. The criminal Owebama regime unilaterally and capriciously rewrote the rules to suit them on that one. 

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:56 | 1240174 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

That's great, except for the fact that they DID bust the UAW contracts and they DID take wage and benefit cuts (along with the bankruptcy wipeout of shareholders).


Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:12 | 1240276 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

and they DIDN'T pay back the hosed bondholders.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:14 | 1240289 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

I didn't say they did.  But, they did get an equity stake, right?  So, your position is to pound the equity stake into the dirt?

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:21 | 1240319 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

So when is that equity stake going to pay off? Waiting... Bondholders should have been paid first, in whole, in any bankruptcy.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:24 | 1240343 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

How the fuck should I know?  I do know that wiping them out again isn't in their best interest.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 18:55 | 1240900 Cdad
Cdad's picture

Any bond holder that got a stake in the company should have sold immediately.  I was not aware that bondholders got anything, to be honest.

Wiping GM out is EXACTLY what the industry needed, so that a company with integrity could have risen in its place.  

Boiler, this is the same as extend and pretend, this is bailout madness, this is crony capitalism.  It has to be purged from the system so that the system can be set right again.  It does not matter about the pain.  Pain is redemptive.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:40 | 1240103 MrPike
MrPike's picture

Why do you people relish in wishing the Big 3 perish?  Honestly, I don't get it.

People relish watching a unionized abomination that was bailed out by the Fed's fail. The "Big 3" build crappy cars, it's really quite amazing how bad they are.  I gave up on them about 10 years ago, my father however did not.  To repay him, his GMC truck caught fire in the driveway because of a faulty engine block heater, the fire spread to his RV, then spread to his house, and the entire thing burned to the ground.  Now he own's a Toyota, and what do you know, no fire. 

Perhaps once the "Big Three" compete by building superior products at competitive prices then people will root for them, but as it stands now, they are nothing more then a symbol of government-corporate-union corruption and incompetence. 

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:48 | 1240149 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

The "Big 3" build crappy cars, it's really quite amazing how bad they are.

Sorry, that's simply not true or even supported anymore.  I love ZH but you have to form your own opinions on this one.  The quality of the cars is indisputably good (as are the Japanese makes).

Come on...bursting into flames stories?  Don't you think that's a bit over-the-top?


Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:55 | 1240172 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

No, considering my mother had a Toronado diesel that the glow plugs stayed on and slagged the whole thing.  I think it's entirely within the realm of possible.  Not frequent, but shit still happens.

You're an engineer, you should know better.  Add 300% to wear items and that DC-3 will still wear out and crash some day.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:59 | 1240186 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Please tell me you're not comparing a 1970's Toronado to a 2012 Malibu.

I'm telling you, the US makes are not better nor 'worse' than the European or Japanese makes.  Frankly, they all use the same suppliers.

If you want to debate the styles or intricacies of the cars, fine.  But people with squinty eyes or bavarian accents are not smarter or turn bolts tighter.

If you 'hate' the US makes, then OK.  Hey, I hate peanut butter.  I don't eat the shit.  You don't have to either.  But I don't proclaim peanut butter to be evil.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:03 | 1240230 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

How about a litmus...  The market itself will remove all rose colored glasses, because numbers don't lie.  Which makes hold the best resale values?  I'm guessing, but with confidence, that Toyota, Honda and Nissan are above the big 3 in that list.

Was an '82 Toronado 6 cylinder diesel.   And I'm driving a 90 Toyota Celica to work when it's not motorcycle weather.  261K and still 30mpg.  Never owned a big 3 that made it that long/far.  Plus, the chicks dig it.

Well, maybe not so much that last bit.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:18 | 1240307 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Neither the '82 Toronado nor the '90 Celica are even remotely modern generation vehicles.

Interestingly enough, I've never had the 'bad luck' with the dozen or so Big 3 cars I've owned.  Sure, I've had routine problems.  All cars have problems.

Japanese, American, or German...if it has tits or wheels, it's going to have maintenance requirements and costs.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:27 | 1240357 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

my point was that the 90 celica is still running down the road with these modern generation vehicles. They hold their value because they hold up longer than comparable big 3 models, ie they are a better bargain. Not seeing any 90 chevy berettas or plymouth sundances beside me at stoplights. 

Consumers will gravitate to the better deals, that's why the rice burners are top of the resale value charts.

No arguments about your theory on women.  Both of mine were Amercian models, but have had buddies who experienced similar or worse mileage with foreign makes.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:44 | 1240466 Andy_Jackson_Jihad
Andy_Jackson_Jihad's picture

Remember all those focuses (foci?) and grand-am and neons the big 3 sold about 10 years ago?  Where are they now?

What about all the old civics and corollas?  Oh, they're still around.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:48 | 1240506 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Wow, that's some powerful fact-based research <rolling eyes>

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 18:02 | 1240611 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

it's a simple (and as simple as an) observation in the real world, mister vice president. 

Do you get helicoptered to work, or just roll in your luxury cadillac with your head up your ass? Wait... it's detroit, right?  so it's probably not safe to look around in traffic, you might accidentally make eye contact with Eminem and get yourself shot fo dissin him an his posse.  On those mean streets.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 18:04 | 1240641 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Can you restate that in a way in which I might possibly be able to understand your point?

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 18:29 | 1240777 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

The civics and corollas (and celicas) are still around in fair numbers, sometimes 10, 15 years in age.  Well over 100k miles in most cases and with probably another 100k of life still in them.  Our external vendors (Indians) buy them and run the piss out of them, and they seldom break.  You simply don't see big 3 products lasting that long.  Mechanically they typically shoot craps around 140k.  They're all disposable, it's just the domestics have to be disposed of a lot sooner. 
I  and this other guy don't have any university funded studies or data mining to back this up, it's just simple observation that comes from driving 50 miles to work and back each day for the past 16 years.

then I was insinuating class prejudice and insulting your driving methods and place of residence, but that was honestly just for fun.  I actually respect you, you've stepped into the ring today and jabbed it out with all comers.  if more of that were to seep into business meetings and politics and drive out the weepy metrosexuals our nation wouldn't be in this goddamn mess for much longer.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:47 | 1240121 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

Ally is listed as a private company even though it is 61% owned by the gubbermint. Further, GM, also owned by the gubbermint, owns another piece. Without 0% sub-slime loans by Ally (another gubbermint subsidy) GM does not exist. Hondas and Toyotas are more American than Gubbermint Motors.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:58 | 1240190 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Hondas and Toyotas are more American than Gubbermint Motors.


OH, for fuck sake.  Stop it.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:19 | 1240310 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

You hate GM.  OK, I get it.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:19 | 1240323 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

I get that you are the biased one here.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:29 | 1240351 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

LOL, why?  Because GM cars aren't shit and I'm not afraid to say it and break up the stomp-on-their-neck hyperbole party?

OK, I'm biased.

What you're missing is that I hate Rick Wagoner too.  I'd love to cold-cock the guy myself AND the UAW chiefs.  But, that has nothing to do with their products or the other 2M+ people that work in the industry that have nothing at all to do with either.

But, shit, if you can't get past it....whatever.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:28 | 1240378 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

I never said the cars were shit. You draw a paycheck from them, it doesn't take a genius to see your lack of objectivity.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:38 | 1240431 Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

The point is a central planning dictator took over GM and threw my money at it without my permission and without the rule of law behind it. Show me where Congress voted money for the purpose of purchasing GM. It did not happen. It has nothing to do with good car bad car or no car or 1 million jobs or 1 job. 


It was wrong, it was illegal, and it has contributed to the downfall of our country. 

I value freedom more than your job or mine. I would rather be free raising a garden and some chickens than a slave at GM.

We already know what you value.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:50 | 1240535 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

What do you want to do about it now?

Do want some bloodletting justice now that they are gaining market share and their quality and reliability is world class?

Do you need that 'perp walk'?  Would it make you satisfied to kill of the entire domestic industry so you can 'feel better'?  Really?  That makes sense to you?

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 19:09 | 1240983 Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

What do I want to do about it now?

I have no power, the ballot box has proven powerless, I have no remedy.

I would be satisfied if trials were held for the illegal acts and the appropriate person or persons jailed, and the funds stolen from the taxpayer recouped as much as possible by selling off the physical capital and assets of GM. It will not happen.

If the industry became worthless, and all the factories, all the skills, all the buildings, all the real estate, instantly became worthless because GM didn't get tax money bailout, maybe. But that was not and is not the case. Studebaker went bankrupt somehow and America kept truckin'. Then they let American Motors go. No more Pacer! We survived. 

Propping GM [and zombie Chrysler] hurt Ford, and other country competitors - it's called crony capitalism. They have to compete against a combination of a propaganda machine in the DoT, MSM, and a printing press in the FED. 

GM is, now, more than ever, the Krupp Arms of Obama's National Socialist American Multicultural Workers Party.

Do they let you join the Federal Thrift Savings Plan? Because you are a government worker, right?

Start practicing your goose step and salute. Is it 'fingers outstreched' like in old school Germany or 'closed fist' like in East Berlin? Did you guys dust off the plans for the Trablat yet? You know they had a plastic body like the Vette, right? Good on gas. Last forever. Just don't burn or bury it. Poisons everything around it. Those socialists really knew how to make a car last.

Let's get one more thing straight. Letting a company that the workers and management ran into the ground go bankrupt isn't "would it make you satisfied to kill of the entire domestic industry so you can 'feel better'?" Really. I think Ford for example would be doing a lot better now if GM had been sold off.

If I lose my job because I get drunk at lunch, are you starving my family if you don't pay me for not going to work? How about if I manufacture crap nobody wants, will you bail me out because I am a domestic industry? How much of your money can I have?

Take responsibility for your actions, and GM/UAW actions. The taxpayer didn't kill you, you suicided.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 19:30 | 1241127 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Do you work in or have any experience with the automotive industry or manufacturing?

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 19:14 | 1241011 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

I want GM to go into bankruptcy so that it can be bought by a more efficient producer.

Why, because that's how capitalism WORKS.

Without a true bottom, there can be no real recovery, but instead, a dead zombie company that wastes resources, being a "solution" that no one can afford.

Since you're an engineer, you should be able to understand this function of markets clearing (in this case the higher order capital goods markets). While it hurts some who get caught in the middle, it hurts us all far worse to prevent it from happening.

Add to that, the moral hazard TBTF creates, and well friend, you end up with a clusterfuck of society destroying proportions.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 19:38 | 1241146 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Great.  Sell it.  Do you have a buyer lined up?  Does the continual 'keep em in jail at all costs' improve the selling price of the assets?  Does slaughtering the brand image help?

Does that make more sense now than it did then?  How are you certain that the automakers will never flourish again?  I actually see some reasonable improvements int he domestic industry.

What is the size of the auto industry 'bailout' versus that of the financial institutions?  Did they bankrupt the banks?  Did they wipe out shareholder and bondholers?  Did they fire management?  Did they bust worker contracts? 

Please, you act like Detroit 'got off easy'.  That's just shit.  They handed them a loan with all kinds of ugly strings attached (and should have).

Keep your hatred focused towards the banks.  That dwarfs this 'injustice' in every way.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 18:36 | 1240813 PrintingPress
PrintingPress's picture

2 of the big three did fail.   Ford did not fail.  The only reason 2 of the 3 are still companies is because of the good graces of the government which didn't have the money to bail them out in the first place.   Our country has jumped the shark when it comes to capitalism and running a republic. 

Instead of having 3 years of true recovery we haven't even hit the bottom as the crisis draws out longer and slower. 

Look at it this way.  My cavalier is making ticking noises and I probably need to add some oil to the car but adding oil takes time, money, and effort so we just keep driving the car until the engine blows up.   Our government is driving our economy until the dollar blows up.   This will be a disaster of epic proportions. 

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 18:49 | 1240860 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Ford would have failed without the supply base.  It's just a fact.  Also, at the time of the collapse (and still), Ford had the most outstanding debt and was simply lucky enough (yes, luck counts) to mortgage out literally every asset it owned (even the logo) before the credit freeze-up.

Ford was actually the worst of the three prior to the shit-fest.  They just had enough liquidity to get through it.  But, they still can't build cars without suppliers.

I think Ford has done really well.  In fact, I drive a Ford product now for the first time in 20 years.  It's a great vehicle.  But, they are getting some disporportionate 'darling' treatment over the other two 'most hated' companies.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 20:25 | 1241325 PrintingPress
PrintingPress's picture

So your thought is that if the big 2 had failed that would have disrupted the supply base and killed ford?

In regards to accounting, having a rainy day fund seems like prudent accounting giving them the ability to always be in a position where they CAN mortgage off everything to stay alive. 

Survival is the meaning of life.

Thu, 05/05/2011 - 03:44 | 1242200 SoCalBusted
SoCalBusted's picture

Help me out here...

"They want 45-60 days worth of inventory at the dealership.  The more they sell, the higher this number goes and should go."

Don't you mean 45-60 days inventory measured of past sales?  In supply chain management, this is called Safety Time.  The level of unit inventory (quantity of widgets) can vary based on sales over a fixed period of time.  The more they sell means that the quantity on hand will increase, but the days worth of inventory will not increase.


If days worth of inventory is increasing, one or more can be true:

1.  Sales are dramatically decreasing at a rate faster than the safety time

2.  Replenishment inventory is outpacing sales rate (channel stuffing)

3.  funny accounting

One of several logical reasons for increasing safety time (as an inventory management policy) is to have high fill rates when replenshiment and/or demand are highly variable.  Last I saw, there were plenty of cars and trucks for people to buy.

Safety Quantity is a concept that says, let's keep X number of widgets on the shelf regardless of demand.  I think you are confusing the two.




Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:49 | 1240132 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

In the past people would buy a truck as a status symbol or to actually use for a business. High fuel prices are going to radically change the way we Americans buy and use trucks. No one is going to drive a truck around as a status symbol. That one is gone along with cruising drive-in's. Business owners are going to look at their books and decide if they actually need a truck. Building supply businesses deliver whenever a minimum purchase is met or in the case of large home furnishing. Why buy a truck when your supplier delivers for you? What about tools you haul to the job site? Why not just buy an enclosed trailer and have it  hauled to the construction site? I already know several contractors that do that. They outfit shipping containers  with tools and equipment and have them delivered to construction sites. This is far better than working out of a truck. Expect to see people operate delivery services where they purchase a truck and use it constantly in much the same way a Taxi service operates.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:51 | 1240166 Hugh_Jorgan
Hugh_Jorgan's picture

Funny. With a gas crunch on, the one vehicles that GM can make and margin on is no longer in demand! Gotta' love that UAW albatross around they neck, arrrg!

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:04 | 1240217 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

I've news for you Hugh.  Toyota, Nissan, and Honda make the most margin on their trucks and SUVs also.  Are they retards, too?  They don't make shit on their small cars either.  Are they retards, too? 

Was it 'fair' for the G8 to halt the Yen appreciation?  That would have bankrupted the Japanese makes and


Wed, 05/04/2011 - 21:42 | 1241606 Antarctico
Antarctico's picture

Wow man, please keep it up! You have far more energy and patience than I have wading into this swamp of Nipponese worshiping groupthink and trying to single handedly defend one of the few major manufacturing sectors we have left in the US.  Having been in the industry myself for over a decade at the retail end (with Toyota!), I can tell you are speaking from actual experience and not just blowing smoke out your exhaust port. Modern Detroit vehicles are not inherently made of shit any more than modern Japanese cars are made out of magic, life enhancing, golden beans.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:08 | 1240244 FunkyOldGeezer
FunkyOldGeezer's picture

The law of thermodynamics can not be wished or legislated. It is what it is and in every case, you lose.

Gasoline engines need a 14 to 1 air-fuel ratio. Higher or lower ratios reduces power and efficiency. Modern fuel injection systems have maximized efficiency and so the only other option to improve fuel mileage is to make the vehicle lighter. This never works with trucks.


Go Diesel, Go Diesel, Go Diesel!

One day the USA will wake up and legislate pro diesel.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:11 | 1240264 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

Destruction of the EPA will be required, good luck with that.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:14 | 1240290 ivars
ivars's picture

Natural gas (compressed, liquid) is the only thing worth investing. Bypass the diesel if you do not have it.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:11 | 1240262 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

"GM increases Humvee production"--Michigan mulls who to take out first.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:11 | 1240266 earnulf
earnulf's picture

I really can't comment on the quality of the later model cars too much, haven't had that much of a problem with a 06 malibu or the 98 F150.    Regular Oil changes and watch the rubber and fluids.

But GM and Chrysler both went to the government to "keep our manufacturing".   Gm hosed it's shareholders and basically thumbed it's nose at everyone else.   So much for a level playing field.    Ford at least stood on it's own two feet and powered through.

I really don't wish to see the end of US manufacturing, we've lost too much already because labor is cheaper in foreign countires.   It's still cheaper to cut a tree in south american, make a 4 oz paper cup and ship the case up here to the US for sale than it is to make it in the USA.   

What's the most expensive part of anything made in the USA?   Labor and Benefits.   

I manage a company with five trucks, we make daily deliveries and that fifth truck is our backup when one is in the shop.   Fuel is killing us (8 mpg on diesel trucks) and we have no choice but to pass that on.    If a customer walks, we lose the business to someone else with deeper pockets who can still afford to eat the cost.     My benefits costs is 30-40% of what my people earn, at least for those who choose to take it.   We only ask them to pick up 30% and many are not in the greatest of health.   Our benefit's costs rise by 15-30% per year and the benefits get more and more restricted.  

We need a healthy economy, but what has happened in the last three years and the last 30 has not done us any benefits.    And we wouldn't get a fourth glance from the government if we went to them with hat in hand.


Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:37 | 1240428 MrPike
MrPike's picture

Ford at least stood on it's own two feet and powered through.

More so then GM, thats for sure.  However, consider the well timed Cash for Clunkers stimulus.  Does it help the companies that saved for a rainy day that their competitor, who operated and planned poorly, was given an adrenalin shot right as it was about to dive off the cliff? It's borderline protectionist of our government to do crap like that.  May as well be transparent and throw up tariffs and force the population to buy crappy Big 3 autos. 

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 18:09 | 1240648 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

What about the G8 intervening in the currency markets to help the Yen for exporters (particulary autos)?

That's 'fair' to the US makes?

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:12 | 1240277 ivars
ivars's picture

Wrong type of car to be stuck with in stock in current and coming gas price conditions. Totally wrong. They will never sell them all with profit.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:22 | 1240346 Timmay
Timmay's picture

U.S. auto industry is a parasite (except Ford). All businesses that depend on the U.S. auto industry are de facto parasites. But let's be honest, can we stomach "reality"? Millions more unemployed and an entire sector of the economy collapsed? Don't know.

That being said, I love the Mustang Boss 302, Jeep SRT8 and Corvette ZR-1 and I wouldn't be upset if a Gen IV Dodge Viper were in my driveway (coupe). American muscle baby!

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 18:01 | 1240605 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Ford would have collapsed also.  So would Cummins, Detroit Diesel, Navistar, PAACAR, Mack (now Volvo) as the suppliers went down.


Wed, 05/04/2011 - 19:14 | 1241030 Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

Can not compete, die. Unfair competition? That is another story. End that. But what you are saying is it is a house of cards, one falls, they all fall. That does not sound like an industry we want to encourage. Sounds like an industry we want to get out of. If they cannot make money building cars and trucks, why are they building cars and trucks? Seems simple to me. If I make something in my garage and I can only sell it at a loss, I stop making it. I look for a more profitable line of work.

I don't go to my neighbor and ask for a handout so I can continue making crap that cannot turn a profit.


Wed, 05/04/2011 - 19:37 | 1241158 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

This isn't a lemonade stand, Moe.  There are all kinds of very serious complications and risks with shit-canning the core of our manufacturing base.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:32 | 1240396 FunkyOldGeezer
FunkyOldGeezer's picture

Natural gas (compressed, liquid) is the only thing worth investing. Bypass the diesel if you do not have it.

Worse efficiency, worse mpg and if everyone started to buy 'em, the gas would soon be taxed more.

Better still, drive diesel and make your own biodiesel from recycling fat salvaged from the thousands of deep fat fryers lining the main streets of America.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:44 | 1240459 Gimp
Gimp's picture

I have had Jap cars and US cars. I can say that the US cars today are a lot better built and easily compete with the Japanese models. Pontiac was just starting to make some great cars when they closed down the division??

Owned over six Toyotas in the family and can honestly say their quality has definetly gone down over the past ten years. Maybe it ain't so great being number one.

As for bailing out the US Automakers, finally our politicians decided to support American Manufacturing, -  they have been selling out and shipping every other manufacturing job overseas for the past thirty years!


Wed, 05/04/2011 - 18:01 | 1240625 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

<virtual cigar>

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 18:34 | 1240792 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

come on man, you two just work together...  you IM'd him, didn't you!

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 18:53 | 1240894 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Nah, there's a whole nest of people out there that actually like the product.

Ain't nothing wrong with that.  I also prefer Boeing over Airbus and rock-and-roll over yodeling.  That's just me.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:42 | 1240470 FunkyOldGeezer
FunkyOldGeezer's picture

USA manufacturers ain't got nothin' like this in the pipeline?

150 mpg estate car from Volvo

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 19:19 | 1241045 ICTruth
ICTruth's picture

The big boys, no they are too power hungry, But the average American is still kicking strong


200 MPG at 70 MPH It is an entirely new engine concept.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:44 | 1240486 Buck Johnson
Buck Johnson's picture

This is going to hit them on the back end, just watch.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:45 | 1240498 drivenZ
drivenZ's picture

do you see what happens, when you find a stranger in the alps? Do you see what happens Larry!?!

hahaha @ cable.



Wed, 05/04/2011 - 18:24 | 1240740 augie
augie's picture

The fact that the FCC would even let that on cable is astonishing. Nancy Regan is probably fowling her pampers right now at the very thought of it.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 22:28 | 1241759 GolfHatesMe
GolfHatesMe's picture

If you don't like my peaceful music, get your own cab. Outta my peaceful cab!

Thu, 05/05/2011 - 07:03 | 1242293 augie
augie's picture


if you haven't been, i suggest going. Restores my faith in humanity annually.

He's a good doctor jeffrey, and thorough.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 19:23 | 1241074 uniman
uniman's picture

My take on this is that GM is merely one small piece of a much bigger problem.  The two-headed problem is 1) Americans generally believe that it is morally right _and_ effective to demand that government provide them with lala-land while turning a blind eye towards the methods governments employ to deliver.  2) Americans generally live under a mountain of debt.  The interest and debt service requirements that permeate the American economy make America uncompetitive with the rest of the world.

The faster this crashes and burns then the faster the survivors will be able to rebuild and start over.  Hopefully this time they'll consult history in the process.  Until then, go long plato y plomo.



Wed, 05/04/2011 - 21:27 | 1241560 tony bonn
tony bonn's picture

for crying out has stuffed its sales channels for decades - and notoriously so since the 1970s....this is not news.....when gm owned avis it used to produce an ocean of its junk cars for the rental market to make it look like it had market share and sales volume...

this is a big one has believed gm's numbers for decades.....that the government owns the bucket of shit ain't nothing but a thang....

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