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"Down To The Wire": Oaktree's Howard Marks Takes On The US Debt Ceiling
While it is always good to hear grizzled veterans explain what we all know, namely that the US debt situation is untenable and America will eventually collapse under the weight of its obligations, we wonder: where were these same people while the debt was being accumulated and everyone was shiny and happy (there is a reason why the correlation between US GDP and debt is about as close to 1 as they come) and without a care in the world about America's long term solvency? Yes: we do enjoy the writings of Oaktree's Howard Marks who has chosen to dissect the US debt ceiling and more specifically America's untenable deficit spending as the topic of his latest letter, although we can't help but wonder: why now? Why not a year ago? Or, better yet, a decade ago? Furthermore, as last night's explosive announcements by the president and Boehner demonstrated the debt hike story has so many moving parts that staying on top of it is virtually meaningless. Indeed, it would have been much more useful for America if financial luminaries as Marks had actually spoken up while the US Treasury was accumulating trillions in debt, instead of all the Monday Morning quarterbacking we seem to be getting each and every day from all the "fiscally prudent" ones who rode the train of America's "great moderation" runaway debt to stratospheric wealth and were all very silent then...
So crticism aside, here is one of the better analyses of where we are vis-a-vis America's debt situation.
From Marks' essay:
For the last several years, as I’ve visited with clients around the world, I’ve described the typical American as follows (exaggerating for effect, of course): He has $1,000 in the bank, owes $10,000 on his credit card, makes $20,000 a year after tax, and spends $22,000. And what do lenders do about this? They mail him additional credit cards.
Most people laugh – perhaps uncomfortably – when they hear this. But no one says it’s inaccurate or benign. The bottom line is that consumer credit has been extended without any thought for how the full balance might ever be paid off. As long as the borrower is able to make monthly payments covering the interest and a tiny bit of principal, the situation is considered acceptable. But that’s not my version of fiscal health.
So now let’s jump from the top of the above list of developments to the bottom. In much the same way, credit has been available to governments deemed creditworthy without limit and without concern for the fact that:
- Countries were constantly spending more than they were taking in.
- Their deficits were growing non-stop relative to GDP.
- Their national debts likewise were expanding relative to GDP.
- In other words, repayment of principal was absolutely unimaginable.
One of the most striking aspects of debt in the modern era is that little if any attention is paid to repayment of principal. No one pays off their debt. They merely roll it over . . . and add to it. Thus credit ratings are highly deficient (shocker!) in a way that few people talk about. What ratings describe isn’t the borrower’s ability to repay principal, but its ability to make interest payments and refinance principal. But the assessment of their ability to roll their debt – likewise – isn’t based on an ability to repay, but rather to refinance again. So ultimately the security of capital providers stems not from the borrower, but from the continued willingness of other capital providers to roll debts in the future. (It was their occasional refusal in 2007-08 that caused the worst moments of the financial crisis.)
With no one asking how debt could be repaid, nations were allowed for decades to increase their deficits and debt non-stop relative to their GDP. And then, in the first quarter of 2010, the little boy stepped out from the crowd, took note of the emperor’s non-existent new clothes, and said “Hey, wait a minute: Greece will never be able to repay even the debt it has, forgetting that it takes on more all the time. Its economy is non-competitive and stagnant, and tax compliance is non-existent. They shouldn’t be able to borrow.”
That’s all it took. Greece was denied further credit. And then people took a look around peripheral Europe and saw more of the same. Today, although the situation is nowhere as dire, they’re also looking at the U.S. and some of its states.
....
The problem isn’t the ceiling, it’s our behavior. The debt ceiling merely imposes a discipline that our national leaders should provide but generally haven’t. On this note, in his press conference on July 15, when asked about conservatives’ insistence on a balanced-budget amendment to the Constitution, President Obama replied, “We don’t need a constitutional amendment to do that [balance the budget]; what we need to do is to do our jobs.” But clearly we do need some enforced discipline, because the years in which we haven’t run a deficit have been by far the exception of late, not the rule.
It seems apparent that in recent decades, politics has become more partisan, and solving the nation’s problems has taken a back seat to adhering to ideology and getting re-elected. And what gets people elected? Promises of more: more benefits without increased taxation, and more take-home pay without reduced largesse. Only recently have large numbers of politicians begun to face the music, admitting that the government has to either do less or charge people more or both.
His conclusion:
The world has awakened to the undesirability of ever-growing government debt. Repairing the situation will require difficult decisions and great sacrifices, especially on the part of lawmakers required to vote for unpopular solutions. This would be a great time to start taking positive steps.
Much more in the Full letter below
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Oh they will buy.
And the price will explode.
Rocket ship and all that drama. Cowards don't buy anything against future trouble.
They forgot to translate that into Mandarin.
Gold and silver are in a Big Bubble! Whatever you do DO NOT BUY them!
A wise observer here at ZH said it costs only $5 to dig silver out of the ground!
Let me do him one better:
Au to $0.02 !!
Ag to $0.01 !!
bitchez!
(besides, I would like to have just a tiny bit more time...)
So unless a sollution doesn't have the word bubble in it twice...
It isn't a sollution...
Bubble VS. Bubble
BRILLIANT!
It's actually a very good logic!
+10
Man, I'm doing it all wrong...I've got $1k on my credit card, $20k in the bank, and make $10k/month.
It's always amusing to watch people say that the public sector is less efficient than the private sector when both obviously rely on constant debt-rolling to remain a going concern.
You best not carry a snowball globe thru an airport screening. LOL
I had a small comedy moment at the DMV this morning. We just bought a used car for my GF's son and the temporary plates had expired. So my GF goes inside and I decide to get out of the car for a cigarette. Seconds later, a gentleman starts shouting about how universal health care is a right. Glancing over to my right, I see a kiosk at the entrance of DMV declaring health care repeal. The individual was frothing from the mouth on how good UK, Canada, Cuban medial plan works and everyone should adopt to the program. I swiftly move in…
Me: Excuse me sir, why do you think everyone else should pay for your health care?
Him: because it's a right.
Me: Why is it a right?
Him: (looks at my car) Because people like you are greedy
Me: No, I pay for my insurance, why don't you?
Him: I have a job and they don't offer insurance
Me: This may be something you should take up with your employer.
Him: America is a socialist country, who pays for the roads and bridges
Me: We do, the taxpayers.
Him: (glances over to the kiosk) you people don't understand, your so fucking greedy.
Me: Your only option is to denounce your US citizenship and move to North Korea for free health care.
Him: Bolts into DMV without any futher comment.
My GF returned with the new plates, the older gentleman at the kiosk gave me a thumbs up and smiled. I didn't sign his ballot, he already knew changes are in motion.
He could move to Canada more easily. Just sayin.
No, no, no snowball, you're doing it all wrong.
You SHOULD be spending $10k/month on your credit card, have $1k in the bank and make $20k per year.
Then you would be a Real American!
Just for that, I paid off the credit card!
Stay the fuck off that goddamn credit card. If the USA defaults the fucking 10% rate or whatever will zoom to 40% and whore your finances.
What I try to do is use the credit card as a weapon. I get something on it and bank transfer paid off same day or cash next day.
Despite my language and obvious anger towards credit card debt, I reserve the fire and brimstone for the Student Loan Bubble that was carefully inflated on our very indebited flower of youth as they struggle to follow the old worn out song.. go to college and succeed.
My spouse has a 4 year and no one gives a shit. 16,000 dollars and done. For what?A dream and a peice of paper. Forget it.
My Stafford loan was paid off my Comp Sci BS before I graduated and I pay the card off every month, but thanks for the concern. It beats carrying around cocaine-laced fiat.
The UE numbers for grads vs non-grads are a pretty stark contrast, but YMMV. Pray tell what kind of degree did your wife obtain? Lithuanian Lit?
U.S. President Barack Obama and congressional leaders are "definitely not" considering a short-term debt limit increase in their weekend negotiations to break an impasse, House of Representatives Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi told reporters on Saturday
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/health-care/obama-restarts-debt-t...
Saturday debt-limit talks last less than an hour; grim faces on all sides, no sign of progress
DEFAULT! DEFAULT! DEFAULT! PLEASE?
Get your guns, then.
+ 9 mm
+ 7.62 x 39 mm
Shame on you, DoChen.
+.45
+.30-06
+00 12ga.
There, fixed it for ya. :)
.45 Super (Soon to be a Rowland) and 12 gauge. Along with several others.
I have been working the weapons and ammunition side for years as everyone we knew laughed at us for even thinking the USA will collapse.
Walmart walks out with junk food and chips, we get out of a butcher and stack meats in the freezer.
That's nice. How many people you prepared to kill to keep it?
A question you (and everybody so armed in the event of a USA collapse) are going to have to be at terms with in fairly short order.
Depending on events, could be as soon as tomorrow night!
I have already sorted that mental baggage when we bought weapons and took classes learning how to use them effectively. Besides our own burial arrangements are paid for in full. I have a class coming soon on Battlefield Trauma which will essentially convert me to a Medic with GSW's if I should be inclined to purchase the right medical equiptment to go with that.
It would not be that much different than trying to patch up broken and dying people on the interstate long enough for EMT's to arrive. You will lose some along the way.
This is not a "government" problem. This is a US consumer problem. Anyone saying "government needs fixing" is hiding from reality, denying the real story here.
The US consumer needs fixing. That is you, that is me, that is your neighbor. Actions to correct start and end with the US consumer living within it's means. Once the US consumer's debt levels decline to traditional levels, then and only then will government debt levels decline steadily also.
Our government is a mirror of us.
No, I refuse to allow you to say our government is a mirrior of us.
We have ruthlessly paid off our home, paid our debts free and clear and working hard on the Student Loans and some small credit card bills (Which really dont matter anymore)
The goal is to run the house like a business. Have cash left over after your own bills are paid. Then you worry about your gasoline, food and the entertainment.
Yeah, but you and I are the rare ones, Seagull...not the norm. Though there might be more of us than many suspect. After all, someone has to survive to be the nucleous of the next round.
dupe, server crashed.
Let me know when you fire the wife and kids, boss-daddy.
I don't know. My Spouse actually competes with me for how to make the best use of our money. If I ever lose her, I don't know if there is anyone else left on this goddamn steaming landfill of excess who knows how to work as a team.
Congrats! You found a keeper. ;)
Many US consumers die at that moment.
Their very lives cannot exist "within their means".
i've got a buddy that just bought (another) house, drives a 80K audi, and he and his wife barely pull down 75K a year each - gross. he's got literally thousands of high end shoes, sunglasses, watches, etc.
they make minimum payments and leverage as much as banks allow them to. he says he's worked hard his whole life and deserves it. i tried explaining to him that he doesn't really own it, and you can't buy things unless you have the money to do so.
unfortunately for anyone striving for sustainability, you can buy things you can't afford, in perpetuity, which strikes me as a bizarre paradox.
Your buddy is driving a freeway to hell. There are millions who live as he does.
Now I have driven the little bitty german sport cars from Audi and I love them very much. No effort required. Just think and it goes. 90-160+ no problem. At work I have actually been banned from those little cars because I turn a 15 minute trip into a tire heating 4 minute journey.
So US GDP has been growing almost 1:1 in relation to US debt. Does that mean that the GDP growth has really been a farce? In other words..the US economy is incapable of expanding without running debt? I mean that is a serious reality check.
Ding ding ding ding...give the man a prize.
When your energy inputs are a function of your gun-barrel democracy and huge portions of your GDP come from government subsidy (medical, real-estate, defense, etc ad nauseam), that is indeed the case.
Only a restructuring of the international monetary system and its underlying economic theories will help resolve the sovereign debt crisis in the US and Europe.
Check out the latest from the Capital Research Institute (CRI):
The Financial System - A House of Cards
I just heard some dem congresswoman on the tube saying "this is a bit like going to nice restaurant, enjoying the meal, then saying you don't want to pay for it".......LOL. No baby, this is more like owning the restaurant, working your ass off cooking a huge meal for all the dems and their friends, then afterward they say that they want me to pay for it, cuze I can afford it. I say F off !! I am tired of working for all these morons who want to confiscate my labor, and my property to pay for their votes. What an enraging thing for that chick to say. Oh, then that corrupt Rangel gets on there and says the Tea Partiers belong to a cult !!!! It took about 1 minute to realize why I never watch TV anymore.
Good memo...
A couple of points, however.
"Go back a few decades, and the characterizations of the two political parties were fairlywell established. The Democrats stood for progressive taxation (meaning a higherpercentage burden on top earners) and more government spending, especially in aid of those in need. The Republicans were the party of strong defense, small government,fiscal responsibility and balanced budgets"
This reads like a Harry Potter story. What was the LAST time Republicans were the "party of small government, fiscal responsibility, balanced budgets"? It this a joke?
Secondly, the STOP GAP measure will not work. In fact, I believe the most damage has already been done by aptly showing to the world and credit agencies that America is unable to self-govern, and that its risk of defaul has been substantially underestimated.
As a result, the credit rating WILL BE CUT, regardless of any laughable "stop gap" measures. GEt ready for the "second dip".
People have been railing on the deficit for decades- but nobody cares in the good times.
And while we were running a surplus in the Clinton years, we chose to lower rates and borrow and increase pubic sector compensation.
And in the Bush years we chose to warmonger and cut revenue.
This is nothing new- except now we are falling into a econmic collapse that is unprecedented globally- and debt is very, very expensive and hard to pay back
At first sight this seems to be a bit of a conundrum. It makes only sense if the expected total interest payed is more than the initial principal + some interest. But how can that be? If the debt is 'rolled over' the principal is never paid (as stated above). So the interest payments must cover the principal over the lifespan of the lending process, otherwise it would be a bad investment. It makes only sense if the party that lends money can expect that more loans are taken out. But how much debt needs to be rolled over that the scheme pays off even if the principal is not paid back?
I guess there is a simple mathematical law that predicts how sustainable such a process is. It surprises me that this is never discussed. It might be smarter to 'cap' the proportion of debt that is rolled over rather than the absolute debt.
I am a firm believer in simple solutions for simple problems.
For Government debt, by the people and for the people, the problem is how to set the level of government debt at a level that is not a Ponzi scheme and the setting of a downward spiral. This can be simply stated as the size of the interest bill set by supply and demand of taxpayers (private and corporate) and not by central banks or governments.
You can use the level of GDP as a yardstick, even though it is meaningless, in the same way you can hold gold as a yardstick, even though gold is just as meaningless. The affordability of debt is related only to the propensity of the Government borrower to service that debt and the availability of private sector capital to lend to that Government.
Central banks have been given inflation as a benchmark. Central banks are also lenders of last resort for fiat currencies. Inflation is claimed to be a monetary phenomenon. The implicit assumption is that the cost of debt must be anchored in the inflation rate, but not the creditworthiness of the borrower, in this case a Government.
The simple solution to the problem we have of insolvent and bankrupt Governments that are busy trying to bail out bankrupt banks (that have suffered from the falsehood of central bank monetary economics) is simply to set a debt ceiling at that level that assumes a fair rate of return (call it weighted average cost of capital) and tax take which that when combined can form an ability to service that debt.
Should debt be a constant? Well no, it shouldn’t, but until the change in psychology occurs at the Government level. As of today, maybe a debt ceiling is a mechanism, but it sure as hell is not one that constantly rises beyond an ability to pay!
What rate of return (weighted average cost of capital over the yield curve) should a Government pay? There are many ways to determine this, but let’s just ball park a number of 4%.
What to do with the corporate sector? Answer, nothing. Payroll taxes only, all business owners draw a salary and pay payroll tax and that’s it.
What is a fair tax rate that allows some quality of life and is reasonable and does not choke off health, happiness and entrepreneurship? Again there are many ways to determine this, but let’s say 25% for the private sector. Combine this with a fair average annual wage and bingo, you have an economic model. I am going to assume $50,000.
Lots of stuff to hold constant, but with 175 million in the labour force less 3 million criminals and say 22 million not able to work or needed to look after the economy, that leaves 150 million tax payers (remember this should be the status at full employment or thereabouts.
So taxes of $12,500 each, means a total tax take of 2.2 trillion per annum, almost in line with the current tax take but nowhere near the spending of 3.5 trillion!
How much of tax should go on service and returned right back to the tax payers? Well, all of it, less an amount for debt servicing. This is a zero deficit. These numbers aren’t rocket science. They are apparent to any financier. Let’s say we can tolerate ten per cent of the tax take as a penalty for past profligacy. That leaves debt servicing of 200 billion a year. With a 4% yield curve cost that means a maximum affordable debt of 5 trillion. You can then express this as a percentage of GDP. Easy enough to do since US Debt to GDP is right now at 100% of GDP prior to the next debt ceiling deal that lifts it over 100%. Say another 1.5 trillion or 10% of GDP of profligacy until the next presidential election!
The current level of GDP may very well be as unsustainable as the debt. It seems to me that the two go hand in hand, and the current level of GDP represents an amount of output that is being unsustainably financed and we are living beyond our means and not doing the right kind of work. Tough lesson for us all there, perhaps a better measure of Fed economic management!
On this basis of sustainable debt of 5 trillion, the US needs to default and restructure with a haircut of around two thirds. This write=off needs to be borne by the economy as a one off.
This same metric write off needs to be applied to the most profligate like Japan, and to the UK, Germany, France and of course all countries like Greece.
I think this is the sort of number that everyone can agree is necessary. It is time to go to war, go to rationing or whatever and deal with it. Then we can get on with our lives in whatever standard of living we have left. I am sure you can think of nuances and subtleties, but…
".....the debt hike story has so many moving parts that staying on top of it is virtually meaningless. Indeed......."
This is why I haven't spent one minute of my time paying any attention to any of it.
Theater of the Absurd is more informative, and useful.
Your ignoring it completely (unless you can do something about it) would be beneficial to all of us who 1) do not rubberneck at traffic accidents, 2) don't pay the slightest heed to politicians---other than to jump for joy when one dies,or is, preferably killed, or flames out spectacularly and winds up in Bubba's cell-- and 3) don't pull wings off live flies.
Bottom line is that the debt ceiling will get solved one way or another. Don't quite understand what all the angst is about.
Speaking of "angst", Amy Winehouse is dead at age 27:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/arts/music/amy-winehouse-british-soul-...
Good riddance to bad rubbish; one less self-indulgent troglodyte for the NHS to deal with.
Robo, we may get a resolution to the immediate problem of the ceiling, but the long term problem of the tremendous risk of rising rates is not solved. Multiply 15T by .05 and you'll see why long range we are fucked.
Amy Winehouse, dead at 27. Very sad. I love her music.
Obama wants higher taxes right? I had a conversation earlier and ya know what I discovered today?
Did anyone here know, that in Obamacare starting in 2012, the seller of every home will be taxed at 4% for the sale of the home? If you have a 1 million dollar home you are writing a check to the US government in the amount of $60,000 . If you're black you'll probably get a waiver.
I wouldn't expect anyone to know that to include the people who signed the legislation without reading it.
Who knows what other hidden tax treasures will be discovered. And now, Obama wants MORE tax hikes.
Eat your peas bitchez.
Let's see how many errors we can spot from this right-wing radio-listening dumbshit:
Way to cement your status as a complete and utter dumbass!
Hey snowball, he might be factually challenged and his maths a product of the flawed US public education system, but the fact is that there are hidden landmines all over these 2000 page monstrosities that this flawed president has thrust upon us.
Steve Wynn has called this all correctly, "wet blanket" on the economy. Until this BS is put out to pasture the economy will continue muddling at best.
Yeah, that's it! Home sales in Vegas are down because people are worried about paying taxes!? Or what might be in the (insurance industry give-away) UnhealthCare Bill?
Epic fail.
The "wet blanket" on the economy is multiple trillions in private debt and a crushed RE market; only billionaires could manage to remain clueless to these simple facts.
And my "maths" are also a product of that same public school system (shit the California public school system). It's not the schools: it's the parents.
Taxes where we are is only a few hundred per year. half of which goes to the schools. The kids come out of that school and flee our no good shit county to join the Military or indebt themselves in college.
The ones who are stuck here get drunk, drugged or pregeanat and become society's problems. Sometimes I wonder whose fault it actually is.
Wynn was only being polite ---- he meant to say that the marxist-in-chief idiot actually shit the bed on all businesses and jobs in America and ran them off like a little banana republic dictator in a Latin American country.
In 2013 the best you, and your aging hippie parents (living upstairs), will be able to say about Obama will be that he was a tiny-brained, bedwetting, nose-picking, racist, smelly, wiper of other people's bottoms, and, former Messiah guy who once used to pretend to be president of a country he hated.
Obama's presidential library is going up in Libya. He's just clearing the ground with taxpayer bombs.
Whatever. You think anyone else on the planet could've done better with the septic economy Obama walked into? Pull the other one.
Even if he'd pulled off three miracles and been sainted before breakfast, you'd say the same stupid shit, so why listen to your pathetic victim mentality drivel?
And my parents live in an apartment that I pay for so they can be closer to my two year old; nice try though.
Now go count your cans of baked beans again and clean your loaded gun.
I meant $40,000 but that's neither here nor there, that was my faux pas.
What if it was my second home? Boo Fucking hoo? BOO FUCKING HOOO?!!?!?!?!?! EAT YOUR FUCKIN' PEAS BITCHEZ!
How 'bout the government get's nothing? What entitles the government to take my money for selling my home AT ALL, especially $40,000.
I better correct that for you....$38,800.
Why don't you boo hoo to these taxes to name of just a few.
Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
Capital Gains Tax
CDL license Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Court Fines (indirect taxes)
Dog License Tax
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel permit tax
Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon)
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Local Income Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Property Tax
Real Estate Tax
Septic Permit Tax
Service Charge Taxes
Social Security Tax
Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)
Sales Taxes
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Road Toll Booth Taxes
School Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone federal excise tax
Telephone federal universal service fee tax
Telephone federal, state and
local surcharge taxes
Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
Telephone state and local tax
Telephone usage charge tax
Toll Bridge Taxes
Toll Tunnel Taxes
Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
Trailer Registration Tax
Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax
And let me ask. What other taxes would you like to add? Ya know, to make this country a better place?
Article 1 Section 8...if you don't like the constitution, you are welcome to move to Somalia, whiny bitch (as if this even applies to you?!).
If I could tax your ignorance, I'd have the deficit and national debt settled in no time flat.
You slimy dick breath. Why don't you reference the WHOLE FUCKING SENTANCE and not just the part you want to mischaracterize?
LOOK AT MY ENTIRE SENTANCE AND SHOW ME IN THE CONSTITUTION WHERE IT SAYS THE GOVERNMENT HAS THE RIGHT TO TAKE 4% OF THE SALE OF MY HOME.
In addition. Show me where in the constitution the government has the role of mandating my healthcare.
SUCK MY DICK.
I'm pretty sure you should hold your dumbass parents accountable for your inability to read and comprehend the powers delegated to congress.
As for the mandate, you can pay the penalty if you're hell-bent on living without healthcare, don't qualify for one of the many exemptions, or just want to take a stand against the "imposed tyranny" of buying health insurance. Hell, if you really want to put your (lack of) money where your mealy mouth is, you can go Thoreau and disobey with civility in protest, but that would require you to sack-up and quit playing the victim.
Of course you would sophomorically ad hominem attack my parents. That was real smooth slider. I've read the constitution more times than days you've been alive. I understand what the role(s) of the government are under the guidelines set forth by the US constitution.
I have healthcare...I've had healthcare...I don't know why you would suggest I would be hell bent on not having healthcare. I don't understand why the government has any role whatsoever in the healthcare system. It's not in the constitution, it's not in the bill of rights, it's not anywhere. If I chose not to have healthcare, why should I be penalized? That's in the constitution right?
I'm not playing a victim. I'm spitting in the face of tyranny and speaking against it. The government should have no role whatsover in my life, other than to guard against foreign invasion and basic services to keep the peace. There is no reason the government should be in any other aspect of my life (or anyone else's life) That is in the constitution.
Obamacare sucks and that's why the Obamabaggers are all bailing out of it. It's so bad they never wanted it all along, they only pretended to insist on it.
They just wanted to stick all the blacks and hispanics with another lousy plantation style rationing system complete with death panels to shut them up. That's all the liberal racists know. No wonder they're all turning on the Thief-in-Chief.
If the greedy socialist democrats had spent the Stimulus money on health insurance, instead of flushing it down the toilet to their fellow travelers, it would have paid for every one of the poor and uninsured in America -- for 15 years!
The tiny-brained snowballs of the world don't care, they're stupid, and they all lie like prayer rugs.
The Liberals FORCED Obamacare through. It was done through the reconciliation process, which was not designed for bills like Obamacare (several thousand pages of unread legislation)
In a normal vote it would NOT have passed.
The reason the mid-term elections were a BLOW OUT was because of that. The American people want the Federal government to reign in spending across the board. It's unfortunate that we have a monarch suffering from megalomaniacal tendencies that believes he can do whatever he wants. If the conservatives hold their ground, we have a solid chance of becoming a strong country. But it will take strong conservatives. I hope we have that now.
Our legislators in congress will need to be unwavering and stick to their principles. If they don't, we're done as a strong country and will perilously fall.
"The Liberals" wanted single-payer...what the US got was the worst of both worlds (private costs, public coffers) thanks to the ignorant babbling of Dick Armey's Army.
Strong conservative? Oxymoronic. You'll never understand that "strong conservatives" are a dwindling minority at best. You surround yourself with an echo chamber to blast what you want to hear and then believe that the colored-lenses are portaying reality. It makes you feel better I guess, but Ron Paul is never going to win an election. Ever.
Your "legislators in congress"...came up with HR2411.
We've been falling for decades, just not for the reasons that get you hot under the collar.
The antipathy I feel for you is unmatched.
I hope our paths cross. I would love to fuck you up.
Someone needs to knock some sense into that brain of yours (if you had a father, I'm sure he would have said the same)
I'll be sure to let him know when he gets back from the VA hospital. I'd laid you out like a cheap rug, punk.
I would still beat your ass.
Sure you would, cupcake. Sure you would.
<pats BD the JD on the noggin' like a good little midget>
snowballs doesn't know who his father is.
We think it's Frosty the snowman, snowflake DNA analysis has determined their kind all melt when it gets too hot.
If I had your pappy, I'd count not knowing him as a blessing.
We got the worst of both worlds with a socialist congress and socialist president.
If Obamacare works as well as Obama's economic turnaround we won't need any health care because we'll all be dead. Obamacare is going to save or create 300 million dead people.
Absoultely they forced it through. They cheated. To force it upon everybody else, but they don't even want it for themselves. They're bailing out of it with Obamawaivers -- 3 million and counting.
My but you are a dumb one. You only see em this bone fucking stupid in the wild anymore.
Why go to Somalia when the glue sniffing marxist bigots are already bringing it to us?
The font of all ignorance knows no bounds.
Tip to the wise: when faced with khat chewing security, armed with AK's, take your shades off. Chill, take a few chews, and all is much safer.
UW, what?
Not looking someone in the eye [especially when they're high on khat] is a big fucking mistake out in the badlands of Somalia.
Part of why the Delta boys fared so badly.
[edit - some oddities in the Matrix - why are there responses to this, when those threads ain't interested in my African drug knowledge?]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0IuUXHBkaw
pass that shit over here
excise, i mean exercise taxes? rofl
How 'bout we tax fat people? If you're fat, eat your peas cause we're comin' for ya money.
The only problem with that is that many fatties are on SSD or collecting welfare/foodstamps.
i can't afford peas, bob_d.
these cherries are too expensive!
You forgot the Lottery tax (volunary) Personal favorite of mine- nothing like seeing people who evidently can't afford to shower or wash their clothing dropping $20 on scratch-offs every day.
You just confirmed that all the marxist bullshit is definitely stuffed into Obamacare, thanks dumbass.
But we knew. And we know this is also just one deceitful provision, from one page, and there are 2874 more pages of marxist lies.
You wouldn't have known this from the American Pravda, so you must be a closet Rush Limbaugh listener.
Good to know.
I think you meant $40,000 but good to know all the same. Sure is going to make it harder for people to flip houses going forward.
Try $0...the only thing making "flipping" (think about how fucking stupid that sounds now) harder is a complete lack of buyers.
Screw a damn debt ceiling, you gotta check this video out, this is the way a music video should be made......bad ass jam too from back in the day....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuYpqCEM0h8
BTW, this one is for you Robo......Hot bitches....hot cars....and firearms!!!!! LOL
Raise the debt ceiling or you're fucked threat.
http://www-eq.standardandpoors.com/portal/site/sp/en/us/page.topic/ratings_sf_cdo/2,1,9,2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0.htmlDupe
Thus credit ratings are highly deficient (shocker!) in a way that few people talk about. What ratings describe isn’t the borrower’s ability to repay principal, but its ability to make interest payments and refinance principal. But the assessment of their ability to roll their debt – likewise – isn’t based on an ability to repay, but rather to refinance again.
this is spot on. And, in time, interest rates are coerced lower to continue feeding the refinancing pig.
If you've ever studied the physics of a star imploding by it's own weight, this is the same. With a star, once fusion gets to iron, the jig is up and we have a supernova. With credit, the zero nominal interest rates are the iron - no more refinancing (fusion) can happen, and so the physics take over.
it's over - just a matter of time now. Beans, bullets and beer bitch'zzzzs!
Obama on spending cuts: "Wan-na make me go to reha-a-ab --- I say no, no , no...!"
Who really cares if the US defaults?
Can someone tell me where you're gona' put your wealth (other than PM's)? Are you gona' throw it into the euro zone where seemingly every country is defaulting?
China? yea, eh, do you trust the numbers? China has an interest in our consumerism....but what happens when we stop buying their shit? China is iffy at best.
Africa? ha
I guess we can cruz down to South America. That brings us to commodities. I think we have enough above ground commodities to compensate for a minute. Anyone heard of the copper thieves swarming Chi town/Cali? We have an abundance of above ground commodities.
Anyone check the AmEx points catalogue lately? Check on the tele's, they are in abundance. It's excessive.
In conclusion, the US looks like the shiniest turd in the punch bowl if the conservatives hold strong.
Who really cares if the US defaults?
I do. It would be a first.
Can someone tell me where you're gona' put your wealth (other than PM's)? Are you gona' throw it into the euro zone where seemingly every country is defaulting?
Euro have thier own issues of thier own making, I have been advocating cutting them loose and kicking the UN out of NYC for a long time.
China? yea, eh, do you trust the numbers? China has an interest in our consumerism....but what happens when we stop buying their shit? China is iffy at best.
We already have stopped buying, thier exports stack up on the coast while ships wait. Hong Kong and Taiwan along with others seem to do very good business with China. It is not working for the American jobs that was replaced with chinese labor over seas for 10 cents an hour. The chinese worker now demands 10 dollars an hour.
Africa? ha
I think not, Africa is possibly the next economic china. If we send stuff to the Africans to export back to us for walmart or whatever, I am pretty certain the prices will get better.
I guess we can cruz down to South America. That brings us to commodities. I think we have enough above ground commodities to compensate for a minute. Anyone heard of the copper thieves swarming Chi town/Cali? We have an abundance of above ground commodities.
South america has issues with Sugar exports. Ships have piled up waiting to load. Coffee is being a challenge this year. Also Brazil and others are working to become Super powers in thier own right. And they should. They have been filling cars with something other than gasoline since the Arab Oil Embargo and laughing at our stupid American crap for decades.
Anyone check the AmEx points catalogue lately? Check on the tele's, they are in abundance. It's excessive.
I don't check catalogs. I am single minded and totally focused on just 4 metals right now.
In conclusion, the US looks like the shiniest turd in the punch bowl if the conservatives hold strong.
They have done what they can, the Democrats screw it up all the time like a bunch of snotty bratty whiney little shits who cannot be content with a generic icypop candy, they gotta have the 6 dollar pint of rocky road twice a day when Mommy and Daddy (If even present) are trying to not starve until the next set of money comes in.
This Nation is going to seriously go through some very difficult times. I watched Mad Max last night and was struck at how easily we can fall to that level.
hey i have an idea, let's blame it on red vs. blue puppets acting like they have collectivism in their interest while their campaigns are financed by the same companies getting tax breaks, bailouts, and shipping their industries overseas.
Nah, that'll never work. ;)
I don't understand the push to Precious Metals.
Any real "default" scenario immediately comes with whatever governing authority remaining following with a confiscation event.
Basically, most stands are "we have crabs, the rest of the world has AIDS".
This is not 1930's in some way, and in other ways it's all 1930's again.
Back then Bank Safe deposits allowed the Government to confiscate and some American Citizens being Patriots complied with the orders.
Today, I hold PM's in my own safe and they will need a warrant to force that safe. In the mean time, weapons and associated training along with other measures are in place to protect it.
I feel that we have left everything behind as a Nation since Friday Morning and are now faced with blank unwritten pages of history unfolding before our very eyes as i type this.
What we do now and in the near future will teach children in history class 30 years from now how it was done today compared to 1930's
Those who dont learn history (ACTUAL HISTORY, NOT WATERED DOWN BRIANWASHED BULLSHIT.. EVEN GAY HISTORY NOW UUUGGGHHH!!!!) are doomed to repeated.
By the way I have made good use of the yearly 200 dollar bank safe deposit fee money for the last several years paying off that safe and a few other things. It's my money now, not the FDIC bank's money.
+100
Heard this somewhere but where?
totaly off topic
kinda important..
{Reuters) - The International Swaps and Derivatives Association (ISDA)
on Friday set July 28 for an auction to settle credit default swaps (CDS)
in relation to Bank of Ireland after ruling that the bank had suffered a
restructuring credit event..ie default..
denninger has the article over at market ticker
Tempest in the teapot when the USA defaults and turns the entire kitchen into a inferno.
But it does mean (as Denninger is correct to point out) that we are already now at the point of a major bank default.
I'd assert only massive debt has prevented the same here.
Good reply, Seagull.
Looking at the actual numbers a default would be a choice to put the priority of the debt below the excess of government.
There is plenty of revenue to pay the debt and run the government.
Demagoguing a cancellation of SS checks is typical of the current White House. And not required, again, based on the actual numbers.
I don't think they will dare not allow the SS to go out.
One of our inlaws rely on it for her very life. If she does not get it, guess what? She comes to live with us as we accomodate her. We have already had several converstations about it. And frankly, I don't know if we have the means to make it happen.... we will jsut have to see.
By at least one read, this may be the THIRD such recent event in Irish banking.
And default greece, germany etc etc etc has faded into background noise simply because the Media has managed to steam roll this dead horse deep into the cracks of the blacktop.
JUST CUT FOR HEAVENS SAKE!
How hard can this be? If the
folks cannot do this have
the someone else come
and do it for them.