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Dubai CDS Hits 652, Ploughs Through November Highs As Gold Jumps On Greek FinMin Headlines
This is where Jim Cramer (and every sell side analyst) comes out and tells us all this is just the market exaggerating stuff and what not. Oh, and gold being up 1% as a fiat currency alternative is completely irrelevant to anything.
In other, actually relevant, news, the Greek Finance Minister is providing the usual share of cheerful Monday morning headlines. As Emperor Palpatine would say, the chaos in Europe is now complete.
08:13 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: WE ARE IN A TERRIBLE MESS
08:24 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: GREECE IS BEING PUSHED TOWARDS THE EDGE
08:14 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: MOST DIFFICULT TASK IS TO RESTORE CREDIBILITY
08:24 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: CLAMP DOWNS DON'T PAY OUT IMMEDIATELY
08:22 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: WE HAVE CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATES ON TAX EVASION
08:21 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: NEED TIME TO IMPLEMENT MEASURES
08:19 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: WE HAVE BACKING OF GREEK PEOPLE
08:19 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: WE WILL BE ABLE TO IMPLEMENT PLAN
08:17 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: CAN'T RUN BIG CURRENT ACCT DEFICIT IN EMU
08:15 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: RESTORING CREDIBILITY WILL TAKE TIME
08:29 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN:HOPES MORE SPECIFIC STATEMENT IN DAYS/WKS AHEAD
08:28 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: EU SOLIDARITY STATEMENT IS VERY IMPORTANT
08:27 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: ANY EU COUNTRY COULD BE PREY TO SPECULATION
08:27 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: TODAY GREECE, TOMORROW CLD BE OTHER EMU STATE
08:27 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: 4-PT DEFICIT CUT THIS YEAR 'VERY IMPORTANT'
08:25 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: GREEK PROBLEM IS NOW A EUROPEAN ONE
08:24 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: TIME IS VERY SCARCE
08:52 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: NEED TO MAKE SUPPORT FOR GREECE OPERATIONAL
08:51 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: IMPOSING NEW MEASURES NOW SENDS WRONG SIGNAL
08:50 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: TO ADOPT ADDITIONAL STEPS IN MARCH IF NEEDED
08:49 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: NEED COMMON SENSE ON ADDITIONAL MEASURES
08:47 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: WE WILL DO WHATEVER IT TAKES HIT DEFICIT GOAL
08:46 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: IMPORTANT TO AVOID DIVIDE BETWEEN N, S EUROPE
08:44 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: UNDERSTANDS FRUSTRATION OF GERMAN CITIZENS
08:42 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: LISBON STRATEGY IS VERY VAGUE
08:35 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: WE WANT TO RESTORE CREDIBILITY IN OUR STATS
08:35 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: GREECE WASN'T ONLY GOVT USING DERIVATIVES
08:34 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: DERIVATIVES CONTRACTS USED WERE LEGAL AT TIME
08:33 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: GREECE PM WELCOMES EU SUPPORT STATEMENT
08:33 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: COMPLETE COLLAPSE IS COMPLETELY ABSURD
08:33 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: GREECE PM REMARKS NOT A CRITICISM OF EU COUNCIL
08:32 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: GREECE PM SAID MIXED SIGNALS FROM EU BODIES
09:00 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: HAVE ASKED FOR FORMAL STATISTICS INVESTIGATION
09:03 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: IMPORTANT TO INCREASE EUROSTAT POWERS
»
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Green shoots!
"Green Shoots"
Greece shits
Friends applaud, the comedy is finished.
~~ Ludwig van Beethoven, March 26, 1827
I'm still on the edge of my seat waiting for an O'Henry-esque denouement.
You can't make this stuff up.
The chairman of the Eurogroup of 16 euro-zone finance ministers, Jean-Claude Juncker...
(his oratory skills earned him a promotion to the position of Parliamentary Secretary, his father was forcibly recruited into the Wehrmacht, Juncker mistakenly announced Arafat's death prematurely, before retracting the claim citing misunderstanding.)
He said there is no chance that Greece will be forced out of the euro.
"If it appears in mid-March that they are not on track we will ask for additional measures," Juncker said"
That's a long time to hold your breath.
Exactly, they will all agree that Greece will ask out of the Euro currency. The effect is the same but prevents a political shitstorm. Under the terms of the exit, both EC and the IMF will foot the bill and Greece will pretend to implement the reforms. They will never rejoin the € because the reforms will never be implemented.
Hey Dude!
You gonna have some more Dharma posts some day?
It's been a while and I'm getting parched for some enlightenment.
try chanting HU , focus attention on inner eye, put all thoughts on ignore, allow breathing without your tense involvement.
Now listen closely..a highpitch sound is hiding in the background waiting to be heard.
If you hear it now, listen with love. If it gets louder you have moved from body conciousness to the self awareness of the spirit you are and are listening to the creation of the moment.
At this point if you get involved with your own thoughts, you go right back to being merely human. Which is good if you are observant of the subleties. Because if you notice the shift in aura/conciousnes as you revert to human then you still have self awareness until you lose it again getting caught up in personal thoughts. This is the dying daily they talk about. Ram Dass wrote a book years ago called "Be Here Now. Worth a look.
My Guru (a real one) gave me my mantra years ago. Excuse me Marla ...Fuck it.
for those of you who have screwed the public
Jump you fuckers!
Very nice, rather fitting "Shine on you Crazy Diamond" came on just as I started to read your mantra.
A practitioner myself, I'll have to pickup Dass's work. If you haven't already, I suggest reading Thich Nhat Hanh also. Best to you.
eckhart tolle is good too. "the power of now" is truly a life changing book.
Agree. That was the start of my journey actaully, a superb book.
How to fix the Greek problem per Blankenfein.
1) Greek debt trades at 2 cents on the dollar and squid buys it.
2) Treserve prints up some more USD.
3) Treserve buys Greek debt from squid at 100 cents on dollar.
Perfect; exactly like the Mexican debt.
I don't know what it will take, but the moment "the People" understand the Treserve/Wall St. relationship dynamic, it's all over bar the shouting.
The theft can only continue so long.
I presume the squid's goal is to steal until they've stolen everything.
However, where do they plan to go then? There not going to be able to hide out in Greenwich, CT. It's not quite like the situation where the Russian robbers could pack up and move to London. I guess there is Dubai. Almost sounds like a prison sentence.
"For when two legs shorten at the same time, and at the same speed, then all is not lost, no. But when one shortens and the other not, then you begin to be worried."
---Molloy
"08:33 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: COMPLETE COLLAPSE IS COMPLETELY ABSURD"
Famous last words!
Completely
I think he meant 'completely assured'.
brilliant
Vizzini: HE DIDN'T FALL? INCONCEIVABLE.
Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
also brilliant
add to that: WE ARE WELL CAPITALIZED"........
GREECE FIN MIN: WE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS GOING ON
GREECE FIN MIN: SOMEONE PLEASE HELP US
+1
GREECE FIN MIN: MY BOOK, "OVER THE EDGE", COMING OUT END 2010
GREECE FIN MIN: OMG WE R SO FCKED
Per AP this a.m.:
By Melissa Eddy, Associated Press Writer , On Monday February 15, 2010, 9:28 amBERLIN (AP) -- Germany rejects the idea of setting up a special fund to bail out eurozone countries, like Greece, that run into fiscal trouble because budgetary problems must be solved at the root, the Finance Ministry said Monday.
Spokesman Michael Offer told reporters that a European equivalent to the International Monetary Fund, as has been floated in the German media, "does not appear to be the solution" to a problem such as that plaguing Greece, because it does not get to the "root" of the problem.
I imagine the German citizenry is all over their politicians.......
You mean the Bernanke/Paulson method does nothing except delay the inevitable and make matters worse? LOL.
"I imagine the German citizenry is all over their politicians"
Angela Merkel is no dumb broad, she has a doctorate in quantum chemistry and knows how to do the math. She probably understands the situation better than any of the other politicians, certainly better than the bankers.
From what I have read about Ms. Merkel, I would agree with that. Any German ZHers here care to add some local color? There were some good comments on another thread detailing the interplay of the German political parties and it is always good to have insight from those on the ground.
A distant relative visited me recently. She is 57 and the week she was here she had no idea there was an election in her country. Merkel won. Duh.
What bothered me was her lack of interest, she also was clueless re PMs. Now she is telling me its difficult to buy silver in germany
Are we ALL dumbed down world wide?
Worse yet, i was smarter at 17. lol
Add to that the German right just crushed the left-wing parties in last year's elections for the first time in, well, since the post-war era began.
So she's solid with citizen support.
Velleicht kann ich als Deutsche behilflich sein...
The German gov't is a tri-party coalition goverment with Merkels party, the CDU (27.3%), being the most powerful. The second largest member is the SPD (23.0%). The junior member is the FDP (14.6%).
The FDP has everything to gain and nothing to lose by "KILLING" any German lead bailout attempt of Greece, as this would translate directly into votes for them. To bail out Greece would be suicide for the CDU and by extension Merkel.
“The FDP position is clear: No.” -Frank Shaeffler, FDP's deputy finace spokesman
“Our citizens can’t be expected to pay for the consciously flawed fiscal and budgetary polices of other euro-zone countries,” -Carl-Ludwig Thiele, FDP’s financial-policy spokesman
Also, dass kann man so nicht stehen lassen! Seit wann bitte ist die SPD in der Regierung Merkel? Das war einmal, das ist jetzt aber nicht mehr so:
Take a look:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Germany
231653...thank you for the insight.
Wow, a "people" that actually understand that if you don't kill the ROOTS, the weed will simply grow back again....bigger and uglier.
They should teach this at American colleges, give you at least some wisdom for the obscene tuition that has done nothing but dumb-down the population even further.
I must admit, I do business with Germans and have several close business contacts and friends that are German, I respect their intelligence greatly. Very nice people to deal with for the most part also.
On Dubai, I thought everything was okey dokey smokey??? I mean, after Abu Dhabi said they would cough up 10 billion (i think this was later reduced to around 5 billion as I recall reading) the problem was solved, right? I mean, cnbc dot com never said anything more about it, ya know?
So, what IS the deal with this other 22 billion and 60 cents on the dollar standstill thingee????
At least we only have Greece and Dubai to worry about....phew.....
Are you saying Greece is Dubaious, at best? ;-)
that was good, very good!
*wince*
ZH pounds the table on this important story;however EU markets could care less, why?
European markets are following the late day US surge. Remember when they (EM) closed on Friday we were down a decent amount. The key is to watch what they do EOD.
That issue is addressed here:
http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2010/02/greece-is-word.html
GREECE FIN MIN: WE ARE WALKING TOWARD THE LIGHT.
Dear Greek finance minster,
When you type in all caps it feels like you are shouting at us. It's a noob mistake, please stop shouting or we won't bail out your pathetic country which isn't even worth driving a panzer tank down there to kick your ass.
Sincerely,
german finance minister.
+1
at least
boo
-2
helpful...The a.p. headline is the one thing he hasnt fudged.
Reminds of the movie Poltergeist.
GREECE FIN MIN : We dont know whether its the end of the tunnel or the train
GREECE FIN MIN: PLEASE REMAIN CALM, LIFEBOATS ENOUGH FOR EVERYONE.
GREECE FIN MIN: SOS
GOLDMAN SACHS...Finished mining Greece.
NEXT
It was quoted in Bloomberg's report that they used 'accounting gimmicks; to hide their debt.
HA HA!
You see, accounting tricks are like lies, you have continually use bigger ones to hide the truth. However, in the end, someone still wants their damn money.
.......you are right. All these schemes have a limited shelf life . The CASHFLOW boogeyman pops up sooner than later.
Kind of like the US government allowing US banks to hide their bad loans (extend and pretend).
It's even worse than that...they already sold off profits from the national lottery, from airports, and road tolls to keep in the debt game.
Goldman has looted Greece the same as Argentina was looted.
This is a subcurrent running through the international power game, financial looting of entire sovereigns. Look, people here are demanding payola too and our banks are going and TAKING IT from other countries.
THIS is why the USD as reserve will eventually fail; we have wielded it as a weapon!
Greece has nothing to pledge at this point because they already garage sold their national assets in exchange for more funding. It's EXACTLY like a freaking heroin dealer and a junkie. Governments and the idiots who work in them CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO BORROW MONEY. They're too STUPID and self-interested to understand the fatal trap of compound interest.
The moneychanger class has been using this racket for centuries.
I agree with the concept, sounds right, sounds like justice. How does this observation manifest as actions by people? In other words, the USD has been weilded as a weapon and thus it will fail because _________ does __________ in reaction to this weapon weilding behavior.
Fill this in for me, please.
Because someone shoots back?
Financial types don't shoot with bullets. My question is what? China drops our debt and gets out of dollars, Oil producing countries stop taking our dollars, what else?
Gee i was hoping you werent the typical woman.
What do you give a woman who has everything? MORE
Just joking
Good question. I hear a lot of colorful synonyms for "failure" and Mad Max scenarios but what will I see out my window, realistically?
I will watch this spot in case you get a serious response.
You know I'm no expert, but I think your China answer is probably the biggie. Assuming they've got the balls, they might be the ones to lead a dollar dump, and the domino effect takes over because nobody wants to be left holding the bag. Following that is a switch to some other world reserve currency, or a basket, or maybe we jump right in to gold. In any of those scenarios, and assuming everyone is dumping dollars, I imagine the dollar loses value by leaps and bounds, twitching like an epileptic on the ground. So, then we've got an inflationary or hyperinflationary situation. From there I believe we move into the world of speculative fiction...there are many possible futures, mostly bad, although "chance favors the prepared mind".
Bloomberg - the original twitter!
I think they referred to it as "accounting trickery" but it's essentially the same thing. I like "trickery" more because it implies deception whereas a gimmick seems pretty benign.
08:44 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: UNDERSTANDS FRUSTRATION OF GERMAN CITIZENS
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_84i0NFoL_2E/Sa1Ap4xTOLI/AAAAAAAAABA/BinFC6exQd...
vs
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/06_02/greecehotG2706_468x324.jpg
...unexpectedly...
"Where did all these fuc@ing CDS come from?"
Gen. Giorgios Papaconstantinos
Kill the CDS barbarians.
Does Gold down 10% since Dec 1, "as a fiat currency alternative"... is that completely irrelevant?
Silver down 20% since Dec 1.
I'm loving my fiat currency.
Fiat currency down 98% in 97 years.
I'm loving the irony.
+1
Gold = 5000 year bull market
Dollar = 100 year bear market since the Federal Reserve Act of 1913
Knocked it out of the park NW
That "barbaric relic" on a 5 thousand year bull run
The anti gold sentiment folks ought to study history, but I can sum it up quickly for them: Fiat currencies ALWAYS fail
Thats always, as in every single time...We are currently in the middle of another history lesson...
GOLD UP 400%+ IN LAST 10 YEARS. Why are you so attracted to ugly, crack-addicted, diseased whores?
Gold made a new euro high today.
Collapse of the euro means that ANY and ALL debt-based paper is imperiled.
We have more debt problems in our States than the EU has countries.
My Fiat currency of no choice is the Euro and my philharmonics are doing quite nicely thank you.
I cannot conceive of any vital disaster happening to this vessel. Modern ship building has gone beyond that."
Captain Smith, Commander of Titanic
You just know that GS and MS figured this out years ago and facilitated the meltdown in Greece and other European countries (yet to melt down) by developing derivatives and off balance sheet crap buckets to hide the debt so the countries could keep on spending and borrowing ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/business/global/14debt.html?scp=2&sq=g...
For the sake of humanity, could we not just arrest...
1) anyone who has ever earned more than $500,000 per year at any Wall St firm that is an owner of the Federal Reserve
2) greenspan, bernanke, hank paulson, timmy, summers, barney, franklin raines
I fear Tyler and Marla might qualify. Some people just play the game.
Please mind the comparison with Titanic...
Another interesting quote from Mr.Papaconstantinou (Greek Fin. Minister): "We're trying to change the course of the Titanic, it cannot be done in a day," Papaconstantinou said ahead of meeting with euro zone finance ministers in Brussels". (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE61E3E920100215)
I (heart) chaos! Gimme some deflation baby!
You understand the nature of default, don't you?
Systemic deflationary crisis leads directly to currency collapse
Just embrace it Trav. Loosen up a little!
Amen. The sooner the better. Currency collapse is the key... it's absolutely necessary. Everything being done to avoid it is making the crisis/problem worse.
I agree, but it gives them the opening to set up something even more totalizing and fascist. Must use the new card to track all purchases and sales? A nice paranoid Amero? Or lets all pile on to SDRs? I know it needs to fall, but they will rush in with a plan that will be worse, before the scared people will have time to decide if it is a good idea or not.
I expect the Amero will eventually be what we end up with on the other side of the rabbit hole or some variation via an international currency. Goldman won't care. They will probably set it all up under the guise of some sort of Bretton Woods type clam bake. The dollar doesn't have to be the reserve currency as long as Goldman has control over world's economies. "[T]he scared people" will have no more say on this than they have on anything else their Owners have done in the past. The only difference is they will be "the scarred people" by that point.
Wasting valuable time by trying too hard to save a gangrenous limb can directly lead to the death of the patient.
Sometimes you just have to look the patient in the eye and say. "It's got to go."
Either we return to sound money or Western Civilization is dead.
11:15 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: OH FUCK...
The danger now is that the autorocrats in Brssels who of course "never saw this coming" will press for greater powers and yet more central funding. This is a serious threat to the fragile "democracy" we have in Europe. The European Parliament is the most heavily laden gravy train devised by politicians anywhere. EU Commisioners are unelected and unaccountable. This crisis suits them very well,they will be delighted to offer us salvation from it & populace will probably go for it.
Bingo
Terrible mess! Pushed to the edge!
OMG they are holding OUR feet to the fire????
The CDS criminals must be taken down before we all fall into the abyss.
Who is willing to risk his life to confront this cabal , who will step up to the mark - is there anyone with the balls to call these bastards out and finish their devilish games.
Which CDS criminals mismanaged and bankrupted Greece for 50 years? The elected ones, right?
These people have access to capital greater then nations and are revelling in the destruction of nations and people. They fooled people about finances who are more concerned with everyday human activities such as love and life while these predators have very little humanity left so it is easy for them to game the system.
In ancient times they would not survive as the elders would throw them out into the wilderness for crimes against the tribe.
I guess we are coming to a point in time where you pick your side and choose your enemy - you pick yours and I will pick mine.
Look, life is fairly simple. "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't". Had the Greeks stuck to that one rule, they wouldn't be in this mess.
Unfortunately, as Aeschylus wrote, "We learn by suffering". It's as true today as when he wrote it 2,500 years ago.
Do you really believe that peoples or governments have control of events anymore ?
People have been fooled by the explosion in "free thinking" of the sixties when in fact they were being infantilized for a reason.
This is much bigger then the Greeks and these criminals will not stop until they have control of EVERYTHING - they are sociopaths that will destroy everything in their quest for power.
I believe that the Greek politicians who signed off on all these debts are responsible for repaying them. No one held a gun to their heads saying to choose short-term gain over long-term pain by paying off their constiuents with borrowed dollars.
I have my own debts to pay, I'll be damned if I'm going to give a shit that some Greeks have their own debts. I didn't get any phone calls from the Greek finance minister asking me if I was doing OK paying off my student loans.
The Duck is only talking his book. If the Greeks don't get bailed, neither will the Irish. No more Guinness on credit!
Paul Krugman? Is that you?
Seriously, that's insane. The entire problem is that we borrowed and spent far too much for decades. We built an enormous unsustainable debt period -- willingly and voluntarily, with the full complicity of voters in all countries -- and are now surprised when the pyramid collapses.
By all means, paint as ridiculous a caricature of the evil bankers and CDS traders as you like and run up paranoid fantasies of bloodthirsty capitalists to your heart's content. The fact of the matter is that the pusher needs to share blame with the addict as well as the regulatory police who allowed the illicit transactions to occur and destroy lives in the process.
Runaway government spending isn't the solution; it's the PROBLEM. Only the private sector can get us out of this mess.
If that's true, then you might as well just admit that Europe is bankrupt. Best to admit it and clean up with a minimum of chaos and disruption of the social order while there's still time to do so.
The "extend and pretend" policy that you're recommending is a recipe for a far worse chaos than Greece is now heading toward, possibly even a full-blown Fourth Reich.
Europe's ever-spiraling socialism was unsustainable from the start. The bubble has finally started to burst. It's time to recognize that, tighten our belts, and scale back our debt obligations, in all Western countries as well as Europe.
Well I would not be a conventional keynesian in the Krugman mould as I believe that excess private consumption is the root cause of the western economic malaise.
The private creation of debt within the banking system has overpowered government fiscal spending on some of the core areas of Government and that I have no doubt.
You say that only the private sector can get us out of this mess but private companies have been running utility companies into the ground for as long as I can remember.
I am a great believer in private companies that operate in a matrix of utilizes that are at least non profit agencies.
70% of the US economy is consumer based for Christ sake - it has only lasted this Long because of its reserve currency status - how could fiscal spending be a problem , you spend more money on dog food then you do on your proposed new high speed railway programme which I believe is a multi year investment.
A large section of your fiscal spend goes into defence leaving other sections of government impoverished.
Europe is imploding because it has adopted large sections of the neo -liberal agenda - its investments in utilities has essentially collapsed when compared to previous decades.
My countries politicians stated we are closer to Boston then Berlin in terms of economic matters and by God they were right , we are now floating in a sea of debt that is not producing much revenue and are up shit creek without a paddle.
I for one have never been a fan of Germany's growth model as it depends just as much on excess private consumption as the PIIGS so it is not surprising to me that France is the only country in western Europe that is growing right now even though over the last decade or two its strategic interests have been compromised by neo - liberal Luddites within Brussels.
I do agree with you that we need to scale back our debt obligations but that starts at the banks who made such catastrophic investments and not at core government functions which need to be expanded and not contracted.
Well it ain't so simple when you have a unlimited money-printing monster criminal cabal trying to crush you. That said, if the EU doesn't step up to this challenge now, the Euro probably deserves its demise.
the greeks went bankrupt because their officials were more concerned with love and life then their balance sheets?
Jeez, in ancient times your hippie commune would be tilling roman rice fields.
Apollo or Dionysus
"And the hearts of men despaired."
Its much better to make to love to a woman then to fumble in the greasy till - without balance in your life you have nothing Anonymous.
Guys like you know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Agreed...
In the long history prior to the spawning of christianity it was common among many cultures worldwide that all outstanding debts be voided upon the changing of the leadership/king/warlord/whatever... Ancient civilisations were very aware of the destruction debt causes as they knew then as we are learning again today that debt has a nasty habit of growing beyond its ability to be financed. Always has, always will...
If the greek people are more interested in sex on the beach than working 12 hour days to save for the kids college tuition, commuting 2 hours in rush-hour after picking up a cheap Mcdonalds drivethru dinner, whilst 1 hour late to pick his son from daycare as his wife has to work un-paid overtime tonight to keep her job to make the health insurance payments that may oneday save his sons life so that his can grow up to repeat the same bullshit "life" then all the power to them.
Its my opinion that they have their priorities right. When the sharp swift kick of reality strikes us all about the face revealing to us a new and improved reality, maybe the greek ethos won't seem so crazy afterall... My 2 cents anyway...
Nick, Oz...
Those poor, gullible Greeks. All they wanted to do was press olives, make love in the warm Mediterranean sun and slam ouzo.
And then the bill came due.
"For the love of money is the root of all evil."
Careful when you use phrases like "the tribe," the censors might get all over you here.
In ancient times, entire tribes associated with the moneychanging and fractional lending rackets were thrown out of nations.
Go back to stormfront.
It is Cromwell's fault.
Are the CDS traders really causing the problem, or are they just exposing it? Aren't they forcing Greece to confront its problems before they got too far out of hand -- and a lot of other countries, too, in the process?
As long as it doesn't collapse the Eurozone or spread financial contagion too far and wide, I'd argue that it's a good thing.
Better to see Greece collapse and the rest of the world learn a lesson from it than all of us go so far down the road to debt together that it's too late to ever turn back.
Imagine if someone had forced the California state legislature to make budget cuts 10 years ago. They might never have gotten into the hopeless situation they're in today.
OK you three guys need to have a historical perspective that lasts for more then a decade to understand current events.
Capital decided to go on strike back in the late sixties because it was not getting a sufficient return on its investments - with the rise of monetarism it no longer needed to return some capital to build for future physical capital so it began to greatly increase the ratio of wealth relative to labour and indeed governments - as these policies became more and more extreme the battle became a zero sum game of winner takes all
Now the ecosystem of the global economy as become unstable as the predators within the Jungle greatly outweigh the herbivores that remain.
These Titans of Finance now want to take out countries as they already control multinational companies.
The problem now is not so much debt but the ratio of revenue to liabilities within these instruments , companies and countries.
Back in the eighties the solution to western economic problems was to reduce fiscal spending to transfer the surplus to holders of capital - this worked for a while as the physical infrastructure had been built up over decades and could be run down at great profit to its new owners but now this infrastructure is now old so the remaining holders of capital wish to attack the residual capital within nation states so that they can continue making profit for just a little while longer.
The reality is that fiscal spending is the only thing keeping economies going and if these parasites take down what is left of fiscal spending the system will collapse taking all of us down into a pit of despair - they think that they will survive by creating a new papacy on the ashes of Rome and Indeed this is a possibility.
Fiscal spending should increase massively to restart western economies and can still be achieved easily if the private capital sheltering under the wing of a bought government is exposed to the light of a true democracy.
If it is not done they won't be satisfied with a meagre meal such as Greece , their blood lust will turn to their former confidante and the smell of the rotting corpse will last for centuries
I just quoted Aeschylus from 2,500 years ago. I think I have "historical perspective"! Some things never change, like the need to pay your debts. Look back at the Roman Twelve Tables and almost all the ancient law codes and see how much they were concerned about debts and debt repayment. Even on a more "cosmic" level, the sacrifice of Jesus for humanity's sins is called a metaphorical "debt", which we can only repay by following the tenets of Christianity. Everywhere you look in history, there are warnings about going into debt. Yes, it goes by different names in different historical epochs, but the gist is the same. On one side you have debtors and on the other side you have creditors.
So, what do modern politicians, filled with hybris that they are, do, the first time they get the chance? Go into debt! Seems like if anyone needs some "historical perspective", it's the alleged "enlightened" class that fancies itself competent to lead the masses.
OK point taken BS inc. but your phrase
On one side you have debtors and on the other side you have creditors.
needs to be looked at more closely - if a entity gives a loan to a irresponsible person , company government they also share responsibility and may need to accept a loss on their investment.
My solution is to destroy large sections of private debt to preserve the international payment system whose bedrock is sovereign debt even though it is a small section of the overall debt pyramid.
But holders of private capital in hedge funds and bank bonds seem to have superiority over sovereign debt - this phenomena is destructive to the risk system inherent in capital markets and is indeed will bring the system crashing down.
In short debt cannot be repaid and if you want to destroy governments in pursuit of rent you are a madman in a crazy world as the economic externalities from such events will destroy nearly everything that we have come to know as civilisation.
You Irish and Greeks took the money. Now you don't want to pay your debt. Take your hand out of our pocket and reap the whirlwind.
You are a nasty piece of work Internet Tough guy but I would imagine that you would have to call in a heavy to collect your debts because you would not have the balls to do it yourself.
I don't see much civilization emanating from government these days. Rather the converse.
Thats what you get when your government is a Janus faced hybrid which does not have a clear chain of command.
A new National Socialism will arise and another purge will occur. Not everybody is historically amenable to lying down and taking it.
But, I agree...Argentina was merely an early canary of the roadmap. It is to buy national assets such as politicians first then either bribe or bamboozle them into sales of cashflow-producing national assets, public works, dams, bridges, roads, the lottery, airports, anything that produces revenue, oil, gas, the cellphone infrastructure, and then get them into compounding debt.
No different whatsoever than Mark Twain's observations about a certain class of lenders who set up in the South following Emancipation and managed to build fortunes by taking ownership of sharecroppers' shares via collateralization against the harvest share.
The masters of finance will take down nations in order to profit, trying to capture any cashflow and income that they can. YES, the ideal is to make every single freaking person except those in their class a rentier serf. If this means a GS tollbooth on your street, then that is what they will do and they will say "oh well, you OWE it."
Historically, these types of arrangements are settled through force of arms. However, feudalist Europe persisted for centuries in just such a scenario.
Paul Krugman? Is that you?
Seriously, that's insane. The entire problem is that we borrowed and spent far too much for decades. We built an enormous unsustainable debt pyramid -- willingly and voluntarily, with the full complicity of voters in all countries -- and are now surprised when the pyramid collapses.
Paint a ridiculous caricature of the evil bankers and CDS traders to your heart's content. The fact of the matter is that the pusher needs to share blame with the addict as well as the regulatory police who allowed the illicit transactions to occur and destroy lives in the process.
Runaway government spending isn't the solution; it's the PROBLEM. Only the private sector can get us out of this mess.
If that's true, then you might as well just admit that Europe is bankrupt. Best to admit it and clean up with a minimum of chaos and disruption of the social order while there's still time to do so.
The "extend and pretend" policy that you're recommending is a recipe for a far worse chaos than Greece is now heading toward, possibly even a full-blown Fourth Reich.
Europe's ever-spiraling socialism was unsustainable from the start. The bubble has finally started to burst. It's time to recognize that, tighten our belts, and scale back our debt obligations, in all Western countries as well as Europe.
Have you ever heard of John Law and the Mississippi scheme, circa 1720, or the Great South Seas Bubble, same time period?
The Autocrats in Brussels must be loving this (although of course `they never saw it coming`) what a great chance for the unelected and unacountable European Commission to centralise more power and more funding on their already heavily laden gravy train. There is nothing to fear they will save us all soon.
It is the vote-buying politicians who are the criminals, not the bankers who lend them money.
what supreme irony that the cradle of western civilization has now become the poster child of its imminent demise. amidst the crumbling edifices of antiquity of this national theme park with its packs of feral canines comes the ravening predators of the financials, ready as always to make profit from disaster. I know of course this is just financial good sense. how can you begrudge the international carpetbaggers and scalliwags the entrepreneurial ingenuity of taking out insurance policies on your house before they burn it to the ground.
Beware investment bankers, even those bearing gifts!
I'm not fully up on the details of the Goldman swaps deals, but from what I've read, the only plausible claims the Greeks have is that they realized what they were being offered was "too good to be true", in terms of being able to keep spending, yet they took it anyway because they trusted what they were told.
A group of negotiators that naive was bound to lose their country at some point or another.
Repudiation by force is the only practical option at this point.
The banker class has ensnared every idiot politician all over the globe - these are NOT high-IQ people - the same way as carpetbaggers did it to newly-freed blacks by lending against their crop shares.
Remember, that Germany had its little nazi episode in the aftermath of JUST SUCH an outcome. France took by force some of its best revenue assets, which is precisely what Greece has already sold to Wall Street.
Eventually, a big war ensues to "settle" those debts. At some point, you owe the bookie more than you can repay and the goons come to collect. The death of you or the bookie serves to finally extinguish the debt
They don't burn it to the ground. They only sell us the matches and kerosene.
Unfortunately, it's increasingly obvious that for western and eastern governments alike, trying to stay out of debt is like a fly trying to stay out of shit or a fat kid trying to stay out of cake.
Debt just fits snugly into the democratic political system - the power to give without taking in the extreme short run.
That's way funny
Hyman Minsky Ate My Green Shoots!
I'd get the t- shirts made but I'm too depressed.
GREECE FIN MIN: THE SH*T HAS HIT THE FAN. ITS OVER
11:14 02/15 GREECE FIN MIN: JUST POOPED SELF.
GREECE FIN MIN: ITS GOLDMAN SACH'S FAULT
08:13 02/17 Tim Geithner: WE ARE IN A TERRIBLE MESS
08:24 02/17 Tim Geithner: US IS BEING PUSHED TOWARDS THE EDGE
08:14 02/17 Tim Geithner: MOST DIFFICULT TASK IS TO RESTORE CREDIBILITY
08:24 02/17 Tim Geithner: CLAMP DOWNS DON'T PAY OUT IMMEDIATELY
08:22 02/17 Tim Geithner: WE HAVE CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATES ON TAX EVASION
08:21 02/17 Tim Geithner: NEED TIME TO IMPLEMENT MEASURES
08:19 02/17 Tim Geithner: WE HAVE BACKING OF US PEOPLE
08:19 02/17 Tim Geithner: WE WILL BE ABLE TO IMPLEMENT PLAN
08:17 02/17 Tim Geithner: CAN'T RUN BIG CURRENT ACCT DEFICIT IN USA
08:15 02/17 Tim Geithner: RESTORING CREDIBILITY WILL TAKE TIME
08:29 02/17 Tim Geithner: HOPES MORE SPECIFIC STATEMENT IN DAYS/WKS AHEAD
etc.
10:20 02/19 Tim Geithner: OMFG! Bubba has a really big...That won't go there...
Very funny MsC...laughed my ass off!
Right on - assuming TinyTimmy hasn't been torched alive by the American people by that point.
10:20:15 02/19 Tim Geithner: Sir, the A hole is a one way device only!
Tim Geithner: Even though we are broke and insolvent we must loan money to the IMF so we can borrow it back at interest.
Tim Geithner: Don't worry if that sounds strange. That's how social security worked for the last 30 years.
"COMPLETE COLLAPSE IS COMPLETELY ABSURD"
Yes for sure!... just saying it will make everything just go away, bad thoughts go away now!
"honey its me ... take the kids and go to your
mothers ... no no i'm ok ... oh and don't tell
anyone about this ... see you soon bye"
I heard there was a party on the roof.. are you going?
"COMPLETE COLLAPSE IS COMPLETELY ABSURD"
Uh huh, and Cramer said they are a great investment and to buy ____ (inset now-defunct or nationalized company name here)___
Dear Internet Tough Guy,
We have faced German pantzers in the past, ask your grandfathers, I have to tell you that they burn quite easily. Furthermore, we are always up for a good fight, but that is hardly the answer in this case. Usurious practices of Northern -and southern European bankers- have created massive problems inevery country. Have you asked yourselt to whom do all the sovereign countries owe all that money?
Finding that answer is most likely the root cause of the problem.
A Greek.
Why is any of this a surprise? Greece lied about their financial situation just to enter the EU.
My father always said, party with the Greeks, but never just them...and he was right, my greek roommate in college stole the rent money and went skiing...never to be seen again
Your greek roomate ripped you off, thus all greeks are dishonest. Okay, sure..
Silly overgeneralization. Just stop.
Why don't you support lazy categorization? Shortcuts get you to brilliance faster. ;)
Why panic. The squid and heli Ben will save the day
Who will win this game of chicken?