• Sprott Money
    04/29/2016 - 05:58
    There is unfortunately no basis for renewed optimism that this current litigation will have any meaningful impact on precious metals manipulation – with respect to either silver or gold.

Egypt Proactively Preparing For Tunisian-Style Rioting: Airport Intercepts 59 Outbound Gold Shipments Worth Tens Of Millions

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Sat, 01/22/2011 - 15:44 | 896011 snowball777
snowball777's picture

How does this prove that gold "is money", and not just easily converted into a large amount of same by the criminally inclined?

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 15:55 | 896032 Thorny Xi
Thorny Xi's picture

Gold is wealth, not money.  So are arable, fertile farmland with poor people around to work it, oil reserves, the ability to think clearly and get along with a wide variety of people, ect.  Money is an agreed-upon medium of exchange to facilitate the transfer of wealth.  As wealth, gold can be stolen by those with the power to confiscate it.  The same people can more easily devalue money. 

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 16:07 | 896052 Malcolm Tucker
Malcolm Tucker's picture

Speaking of devalue the FED snuck in a MAJOR rule change that will prevent it from taking losses on its MBS holdings and, instead, assign those losses to....the Treasury!

http://fedupmontrealer.blogspot.com/2011/01/fed-hides-major-accounting-change.html

Gotta love Banksters

 

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 18:07 | 896270 flacon
Sat, 01/22/2011 - 23:31 | 896644 hamurobby
hamurobby's picture

Nice.

The only reason gold failed as money was because it could only be expanded to a certain point at a fixed value. Two different restrictions that could not be held accountable, banks are thieves, accommodated by governments.

Sun, 01/23/2011 - 14:48 | 897310 Turd Ferguson
Turd Ferguson's picture


I'm particularly proud of my latest creation.

http://tfmetalsreport.blogspot.com/2011/01/new-movie.html

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 23:02 | 896613 jomama
jomama's picture

coincidence that this is around the time that Au and Ag started their tank fest?

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 16:36 | 896117 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Monie is:

1)  A unit of account

2)  A store of wealth

3)  Fungible

4)  A medium of exchange

Pop quiz, which of these does fiat not fit?  Fiat is not a store of wealth.  Precious metal on the other hand fits all 4 categories perfectly.

Get monie!

Sun, 01/23/2011 - 16:30 | 897508 h3m1ngw4y
h3m1ngw4y's picture

money is a claim on human labor

Sun, 01/23/2011 - 16:30 | 897509 h3m1ngw4y
h3m1ngw4y's picture

money is a claim on human labor

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 17:08 | 896178 Silver Bully
Silver Bully's picture

Money has 2 uses, defined:

1. A medium of exchange.

2. A store of wealth.

Gold has been both for over 5,000 years. It has survived countless empires, civilizations, countries, nation-states, tribes, and any other group human beings care to call themselves.

Therefore, it is the ultimate currency. 'Barbarous relic', indeed.

FYI, we Americans are so bright, we call it a 'commodity', not a currency. You can tell how far we're gonna go. Yes sir, indeedy.

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 16:35 | 896118 Math Man
Math Man's picture

Seriously, no suprise here.

It is 5x more lucrative to steal gold than it was 10 years ago.

No big surprise that more people are stealing it now.

 

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 19:32 | 896406 Its the Vatican...
Its the Vatican Stupid's picture

Who says it's stolen???

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 18:38 | 896325 dumpster
dumpster's picture

once again a brain washed and inept bunch of diaper clad loggers ,, wit5h out probably a pot to piss in,,Start the same refrain about gold..

They bash their intellect on a bag of straw,

No nothing of historical standards // read nothing about china ,k Russia , india  stocking up on gold

Have not read the latest stinky greenspan covering his butt allen ,, that the gold standard may need to be reestablished ,

sure it doesn't prove that gold is money,, it is a self evident fact.. lost to a Keynesian crew of egg suckers . 

 

 

 

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 20:47 | 896486 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Once again, the same "because I said so" circular lack of reasoning...quad erat adsumptum...it says so in the bible and Andrew Jackson was abused by banks as a child so it must be true, right mommy?

A "gold standard" is not gold as money (as long as we're on strawmen and all) and my opinion of the Maestro's vacillations is on that page.

As for intellect, try a mental exercise...can something be true while still not being proven so by a specious (pun!) argument?

 

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 22:39 | 896576 dumpster
dumpster's picture

so grass grows in your teeth .

 

usually flossing takes the stain out

Sun, 01/23/2011 - 06:04 | 896883 i.knoknot
i.knoknot's picture

good to see you dumpster - long time.

interestingly i'm seeing a lot of old-timers in here lately.

i wonder what we're sensing...

certainly not the headlines pulling us back in here.

cheers

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 19:24 | 896396 Sad Sufi
Sad Sufi's picture

Good point snowball.  Gold is transportable and is great for unauthorized movement of value, just like cash.  Gold isn't magic, and it can be used by criminals.

Sun, 01/23/2011 - 07:24 | 896913 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

That's pretty sad Sufi. By whose authority may I transport MY wealth or value? No, that's not sad, that's sick, control freak bullshit. Seek help.

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 22:16 | 896512 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Your question seeks an answer. It sounds like an internalized scream for help. You will find answers to your internal quandary only from without. External stressors are the stimuli which promote inquiry. Without recognizing them or investigating them, your normalcy bias remains unchallenged.

The Austrian principles of sound money were not bestowed upon any of us at schools we attended. We were steeped in the same nonsense as you, lived the dream as much as anyone (paper currencies as money). We aren't aliens from another planet, suddenly landed with answers to the universe. Our reasons for turning to gold have been adopted later in life, where, after living under the same system that you endure and for those of us feeling cheated out of hard earned property, discovered there was a way to protect our wealth from the depredations (plundering) of government.

It ain't fool proof, considering the current system's over-reaching intrusion, but at least (as a defensive strategy employed in answer to legalized systemic theft) it has its merits. Idly standing by to watch years of wealth creation be destroyed by schemes adopted by government and banker's inflationary taxation, is not an option. Some of us hold such deep convictions about the criminality of the current monetary system, that, charged with civic and familial duty, wish to see the system changed.

If you are a troll, your glib efforts in denigrating our considered strategies of wealth protection, offer no new insights and will be wasted here and be judged as nuisance value only. You will need to find another place to feed you ego being as we are not easy marks. Fool me once ...., you know what Im sayin'.

If the intent of your question was an honest yearning for answers; try Fekete, Rothbard, Aristotle, Newton, Adams, The Founding Fathers and (novelly) "born again" Greenspan as to why gold is money, and then try G. Edward Griffen's "The Creature From Jekyll Island" as to why paper isn't and how the machinations of men with Shylock hearts and dead pool souls, have surreptitiously gained the where-with-all to mill your saved labor into dust.

If you are into that form of masochism, then have fun with that. See you at the end of the game.

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 23:01 | 896612 snowball777
snowball777's picture

I own Au, Ag, and my favorite, Palladium, but I don't fantasize about using them to buy groceries.

I recognize the value of grounding fiat to something tangible (though I'd be just as happy to see some other commodities introduced to the basket of currencies that constitute the SDR), but my question was about the use of logical fallacy to attempt to establish that line of reasoning, no more, no less.

I have very little respect for Austrian economics as what I've read thus far it is little more than pablum and sophistry which employs methods just as corrupt as the one I pointed out in my original post. Credit money will be a source of economic instability with or without pure fiat or a Fed Reserve and giving up all ability to manage the monetary base whatsoever will make things just as bad, only in a different way.

 

Sun, 01/23/2011 - 01:53 | 896768 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

"I own Au, Ag, and my favorite, Palladium, but I don't fantasize about using them to buy groceries."

I am at a loss as to what other reason there is to own them. I don't fatasize about it, I live that reality. Nothing fallacial in that. If I need something, I buy it. To do that I exchange gold or silver for cash and purchase them. As gold and silver have had no other liabilities tied to them, have no need for a 20 + 2 % fund manager gouging their value, are not devalued through printing, they have served me well in as a medium that have maintained the purchasing power of my savings.

An SDR? Are they currency for the man on the street? How will they get used for exchange and how do you save them? Where do they come from and controlled by whom? Probably by some foreign bureaucrat with the power to borrow as much as they like, covered by off-balance-sheet accounting practices? This sounds all too familiar. Come on now. You are surely not advocating more of that are you? What commodities do you propose make up the backing that aren't consumed? Coffee? Copper, Oil? Dirt? Why mess around, when we know that gold and silver have worked in the past. Why the denial?

Further, if credit money SDRs are to be used, why the need to back them with any commodity? Why not back them the same way as they back local currencies the world over, to wit, the encumberance of the worker's labor through taxation. Good faith and credit. Greece is the word.

Please define money for me so that I can make considered points in response to your thoughts. I'll have to go back and read your original posts but can you support your findings on the sophistry and pabulum and corruption that you refer to in the Austrian school. How can the use of gold and silver as coin for payment and extinguishment of debt be corrupted if any credit notes are tied to it through redemption? Is my take on the writings of the Austrians hard money principles misconstrued?

"Giving up the the ability to "manage" the monetary base will make things just as bad."  

I'm guessing that by that you mean "the government" as manager. Government ceded to the Federal Reserve, a private consortium,  the right to "print" money or lend it into existence through ledger book entry or digital credits, long ago. The banks create (manage) the bulk (all) of the credit money that you favor, and control its price and availability, at their discretion. The printing of money is not wealth creation. Nor for that matter is the coining of gold and silver. However, when used as yardstick of value (considering all other mediums, including "good faith and credit) and when used as a governor (speed choke) on the creation of any credit note linked to redemption, they are by their very nature, (5000+ years of efficacy and all) undeniably effective in thwarting deception and avarice.

The banks have won the right to circumvent the redemption of credit notes, by making their credit notes represent a share of the nations GDP, rather than an individual's wealth. It's the nation's money, rather than mine. It's a well worn play by the banks that encumbers labor via taxation, using their government sanctioned monopoly over supply and redemption. They create debt through government borrowings and make you work it off through taxes.

The structure of the SDR plan the same and will be in the hands of the same cartel. Therefore, if I'm to be cast from the frying pan and into the fire, I'm wondering what your point is.

Al.

Sun, 01/23/2011 - 02:22 | 896791 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

I re-read your original post and the article. I believe that one of the properties of money, (for it to be money) is its universal acceptance as extinguishment of debt, its fungibility. I would suggest that the thief would find a willing person who holds the same perception, anywhere else in the world. That, as well as its other well recognized properties as a medium most readily accepted as money (divisibility, rarity, longivity) would make the case.

Name any other medium that does that!

Sun, 01/23/2011 - 10:15 | 896991 snowball777
snowball777's picture

It is "most readily accepted" by cultural convention alone...sugar and puka shells could fill that role, if it was drilled into us that they "are money" from birth.

 

Sun, 01/23/2011 - 17:44 | 897629 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

You avoided the question. Name another medium that fills those roles. Sugar and puka shells fell by the wayside because of their lack of monetary properties? Like I said, when it comes to keeping the issuer of a credit note honest in intent, gold and silver certificates are the most reliable money medium. Other commodities are best exchanged through other forms of delivery contracts.

Honesty is a cultural convention as well and that convention requires verification and satisfaction. By convention then, let's make our money honest. Name a medium.

Sun, 01/23/2011 - 17:58 | 897647 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Energy. Difficult to fake, generatable by anyone, divisible, and storable.

Sun, 01/23/2011 - 18:38 | 897688 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Sorry, able to be consumed. How do you exchange energy with someone for goods and services/ How will the system work without corruption. If everyone can produce energy, it wouldn't be exchangeable.

Intertemperal consumption theory is the study of the consumption and savings preferences of the average man. Storage of energy and the production of energy (by the way, in which form do you suggest?) is very inefficient and expensive. Expand on your "generatable by anyone" statement and why we aren't doing it enmass?

Sun, 01/23/2011 - 22:27 | 897998 nuinut
nuinut's picture

@snowball,

 

It would probably be helpful if the item you select was the most likely for others as well, which is to say a focal point:

 

In game theory, a focal point (also called Schelling point) is a solution that people will tend to use in the absence of communication, because it seems natural, special or relevant to them. The concept was introduced by the Nobel Prize winning American economist Thomas Schelling in his book The Strategy of Conflict (1960). In this book (at p. 57), Schelling describes "focal point[s] for each person’s expectation of what the other expects him to expect to be expected to do." This type of focal point later was named after Schelling.

Consider a simple example: two people unable to communicate with each other are each shown a panel of four squares and asked to select one; if and only if they both select the same one, they will each receive a prize. Three of the squares are blue and one is red. Assuming they each know nothing about the other player, but that they each do want to win the prize, then they will, reasonably, both choose the red square. Of course, the red square is not in a sense a better square; they could win by both choosing any square. And it is the "right" square to select only if a player can be sure that the other player has selected it; but by hypothesis neither can. It is the most salient, the most notable square, though, and lacking any other one most people will choose it, and this will in fact (often) work.

Schelling himself illustrated this concept with the following problem: Tomorrow you have to meet a stranger in NYC. Where and when do you meet them? This is a Coordination game, where any place in time in the city could be an equilibrium solution. Schelling asked a group of students this question, and found the most common answer was "noon at (the information booth at) Grand Central Station." There is nothing that makes "Grand Central Station" a location with a higher payoff (you could just as easily meet someone at a bar, or the public library reading room), but its tradition as a meeting place raises its salience, and therefore makes it a natural "focal point."

 

Mon, 01/24/2011 - 08:57 | 898356 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Sounds like a cross between the prisoner's dilemma and family feud. I think the location and connectivity of Grand Central would make it Pareto Optimal for that problem. For SF, it would be the Embarcadero BART station.

 

Mon, 01/24/2011 - 09:20 | 898379 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Does the fact that it can be consumed mean anything if it is a near infinitely renewable resource?

Electrical energy in batteries could be transferred with a wire (my phone's doing it right now) or without one (if you're Tesla) and technically measurable down to the picoamp (though your battery could be a cheap knock off that is only precise to a milliamp). 

It can be generated with a some coiled copper and a little sweat, but not in the sense that a single man could do so enough to debase it as a currency, as you pointed out for me.

Mining gold and silver isn't exactly cheap either and silver is consumed by industry, but suggested as currency on these boards daily.

 

Sun, 01/23/2011 - 02:18 | 896801 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

Bravo!

Sun, 01/23/2011 - 17:54 | 897644 snowball777
snowball777's picture

"I am at a loss as to what other reason there is to own them."

Let's simply say that my interests are in hedging against inflation (wealth protection), rather than a return to the use of PMs as the sole medium of exchange. I'm not interested in returning to the late 19th century.

No, SDRs aren't a "one world currency" for the man on the street, but they do facilitate international trade. Since they are only defined in terms of fiat, they are subject to the same machinations as fiat. Adding gold to the basket of currencies would provide all the same benefits that you believe replacing the dollar with gold would have.

I don't know where you got the idea that I 'favor' credit money...moving to a fractional reserve ratio closer to 2:1 than 40:1 would be a good thing in as much as it would help eliminate the asset booms and busts we've been subject to since I was born (early 70s). Floating gold convertibility would give you the market-controlled peg you desire while retaining the positive benefits of fiat.

As for gold and silver "working in the past", you need to re-examine the history of debasement (actual, not printing) and the number of bank panics that a completely inflexible currency can bring to an economy (the rosy scenario painted by Rothbard and the like isn't so rosy for anyone but the Morgans and Vanderbilts). While I don't think that the deal struck at Jekyll Island was in the best interests of the United States, cutting off your nose to spite your face isn't the answer. If an idiot drives a car into a ditch, my first instinct isn't to outlaw the use of cars entirely.


Sun, 01/23/2011 - 20:35 | 897713 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Let's simply say that my interests are in hedging against inflation (wealth protection), rather than a return to the use of PMs as the sole medium of exchange. I'm not interested in returning to the late 19th century.

The use of gold and silver, tied to their paper certificates, constrains the boundless (ergo, bondless) supply of credit. The fact that there was a call on the certificate to produce goods as settlement, didn't eliminate deceit but at least makes the certificate savable. Another benefit is that it constrains unlimited government spending and dishonest use of savings by a banker's criminal intent. It commits the bank manager to consult the saver, if they want to stay in business or avoid a rope burn.

One cannot deny the avarice of man, so in order to restrict it, gold and silver naturally curtail those with criminal intent. That does not mean that credit dries up. Wealth is created by people taking risks with their savings. I want a money system that achieves those goal,  rather than accepting debt certificates as money, (oxymoronic if the money is perceived to retain its wealth storage property) coddled crony capitalism and government that is structured on a fascist based model, which we are subjected to today.

The SDR, in the hands of special interest groups and cartels, offers no relief from these pirates, offers no protection to world citizens and as you admit, only serves as an conduit for international trade. It therefore loses out as a legitimate people's money. 

Mon, 01/24/2011 - 09:02 | 898364 snowball777
snowball777's picture

You might explain how we had both PM certs and corrupt, crony government throughout the 19th century.

You don't think that a PM cert can be made worthless as fast as a dollar? Hint: Nixon.

I think you need to re-read my posts if you believe I was proposing SDRs as currency...I only suggested adding gold to the basket, not using them as money, but whip that strawman good, if you must.

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 22:43 | 896579 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

Wanna know what proves gold is money? Dictators risking their lives to grab gold and run with it. Cause they know the people at the other end will speak their language only if they got gold. And they don't care about anything else they leave behind. So ask yourself this: when the dictators take over, just what do you suppose is going to talk their language: gold or paper engraved with the images of the former democratic regime they destroyed?

Gold, the choice of dictators everywhere.

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 22:52 | 896598 snowball777
snowball777's picture

"...as well as an indeterminate amount of foreign currencies..."

Nope.

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 15:46 | 896015 LeBalance
LeBalance's picture

Yo Pharoah:

"Let the people Go!"

/roflmao/

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 15:49 | 896020 bonddude
bonddude's picture

People may start rioting in Sonoma when the truth comes out about
who raped their local bank into oblivion. The Local NYTimes affliate is on the verge
of breaking this story. A few facts are still available.
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/8242405/

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 16:02 | 896041 sabra1
sabra1's picture

People may start rioting in Sonoma:

how can you riot if your half asleep?

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 16:13 | 896072 bonddude
bonddude's picture

Coffee counteracts the wine. They've got good coffee in Slownoma.

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 16:15 | 896074 Hulk
Hulk's picture

Rioting Libs? Are you kidding???

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 16:19 | 896085 bonddude
bonddude's picture

Yeah, aren't they the ones prone to rioting, if you want to talk political parties?

They can sure afford pitchforks and torches at least.

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 16:51 | 896159 slow_roast
slow_roast's picture

Are you kidding?

 

France?! 

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 17:56 | 896254 bonddude
bonddude's picture

They perfected the use of guillotine, no? OUI !

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 18:10 | 896275 grey7beard
grey7beard's picture

>> Rioting Libs? Are you kidding???

 

They got us out of Viet Nam.  What have you wingnuts ever done?

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 20:23 | 896459 Hulk
Hulk's picture

Sonoma libs of today  bear no resemblance to vietnam protestors of yesteryear...

Sat, 01/22/2011 - 23:05 | 896617 snowball777
snowball777's picture

You're fooling yourself...the rest of the world making a run on Ft Knox got us out; the hippies didn't accomplish much beyond making a bad name for themselves.

 

Sun, 01/23/2011 - 02:20 | 896803 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Actually, it was Nixon who got us out of Viet Nam.

The Libs got us in.

Sun, 01/23/2011 - 06:06 | 896884 i.knoknot
i.knoknot's picture

isn't real history great? heh.

Sun, 01/23/2011 - 10:18 | 896994 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Eisenhower and Truman the liberals...too rich.

 

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