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Employment-To-Population Ratio Back To October 1983 Levels: The Only Chart That Matters
The administration thinks it can pull a fast one by pretending the unemployment rate is better when millions of people are allegedly leaving the labor force in droves? That's fine - however, there is nothing Christina Romer's replacement can say to put lipstick on the below piggly chart. The ever critical ratio of civilian employment to population is now at 58.4%... It was last this low (to the upside) in October of 1983. At least in one way Obama has caught up to the Reagan administration.
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I could have sworn that I heard Liesman mention this earlier.
sarc <on>
But he did point out the that US companies are bringing back jobs to the US from abroad. This after GE anounced they laid off 400 workers in China and hiring the same number in the US. In his words - lots of silver-linings in this report.
It was Becky who remembered the WSJ article and pointed it out to Liesman, who gleefully declared he had seen it (Thank you Becky for grasping at straws) and then stuffed it in Santelli's face as "good news". Of course, Santelli couldn't, or wouldn't, argue with it because it was clearly a straw man arguement.
Gotta give Santelli props, he consistently tries to bring the discussion back to things that matter. But he's pissing in the wind because of the NBC corporate agenda of positive spin.
It must be a pain in the ass for them that he is to popular to give the boot.
Actually, CNBC's viewership is much higher when the markets are cratering. I don't completely understand the desire to be so bullish. Their advertisers will stick with them regardless.
That's because they peddle the "hope" dope to placate the herd, numbing them to the ongoing carnage.
It's time to cull the herd.
In honor of today's unemployment report I would like to present:
Fired on your day off (a playlist): http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=33135E8E214454B3
happy suck day to y'all :D
It was the USA Today,not sure they get the WSJ over there.
The ultimate measure of whether what you're saying is true is the trade balance. After improving much less than it should have in such a steep recession, because the government's hugely increased foreign borrowing propped up the dollar, the trade deficit is widening again.
Or perhaps I just missed the note of sarcasm?
http://keynesianfailure.wordpress.com/
400 jobs? We're supposed to get excited for 400 fucking jobs coming back here? We've lost 8 million since the beginning of this recession and we aren't hiring people fast enough to keep pace with people entering the workforce. What fucking tools these people are. 400 jobs is a goddamn rounding error. These CNBC people should be shot.
Isn't it NBC that has the new sitcom about Indian Offshore workers. Don't want to spoil all the warm and fuzzies that we'll develop for the funny offshore Indians. They need jobs too, don't they?
Where is my regional offshore Indian? Show Me The Curry BABY!
Its not even a rounding error. Its utterly insignificant.
Extrapolating anecdotal incidents to create a false image is standard CNBS operating procedure.
It's a start.
Yes, those few thousand jobs gained will make up for the 8 million plus lost. It is time to party like 1999!
Get, f*cking real.
This analysis below from 2009 is brilliant - timing again is the only question. Key point is: "By 2012, there will be a general feeling that the nation is in immediate danger of blowing up or coming apart at the seams. This fear will be justified, given that the U.S. has always been held together by the promise of a continuously rising material standard of living—the famous “pursuit of happiness”—rather than any ethnic or religious ties. If that goes, so could everything else. We were lucky in the 1930s—we may not be so lucky again."
The difference is that in the '30s there was still manufacturing. Today, our unemployed and welfare recipients are paid 10-20x as much as productive manufacturing personnel in India, China, Taiwan, etc. Our citizenry is not well educated enough to be a true intellectual economy sufficient to keep 300mm people employed and net worth positive.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/134820-the-worst-case-scenario-someone-has-to-say-it
And that a significant number of people lived on "farms". My grandmother (born in 1925) never even knew there was a depression in rural Mississippi, nothing much changed in her life during that time period.
that's because her whole life was lived in a depression as a Mississippi farmer.. also, this chart is bogus since back in the good old 50's women stayed at home for the most part and you only needed one paycheck to support a family with a good life.. so what is the goal now with shit wages?? 90% population needs to work? What about less people married? Forcing more and more to work? These numbers do not relate to the past
Your response makes no sense at all. In the 50's the labor participation rate was low because women chose not to work. Today, it's falling to the 50's level because people can't find work. "Forcing more and more to work"??? How about "the only way to pay for education/health care/middle class life is to have husband/wife both work"?
women chose not to work??? So there were endless job openings because half the population chose not to work?? you have a couple of forces in play here.. globalization and union busting. If it wasn't for globalization, union busting wouldn't have as dramatic effect on wages; but combined, it drives it down considerably. Thus, you now need both parents to work which means more people chasing less and less jobs.
Another angle to this chart is what jobs increased in pay and which ones decreased or vanished?
Throw in the fiat-debt-spiral and it matters not how many people are working if the value of the people's wealth is in quicksand
"you only needed one paycheck to support a family with a good life.."
In the 50's a family owned one car and had a 900 sf house without A/C and only ate out once or twice a month. If I lived that way today my savings rate would skyrocket even if my wife didn't work!
That's what make this chart so freaking horrible. The chart's fine, the data's horrible.
also society was predominantly white and christian. There were AfroAmericans, but they were effectively supressed. Fewer latinos, asians etc.
There is faaaar less social cohesion in the USA (and UK,Aud,Cad) today than in the 30's.
Pffft. Back then they felt the same way about blacks, Irish, Italians, and eastern europeans as we feel today about muslims and latinos.
Social cohesion may break down, but it would have broken down just the same back then, it just would have been whites fighting whites and slightly off-whites.
Kennedy had to give a special speech to reassure a terrified WASP nation that a Catholic President would not bow to the Pope and BBQ Presbyterian infants, or something.
In the Golden Age of Pax Americana, almost all Presidents were good Baptists. Not to mention naval officers. SALUTE!!!
A time for thuggery.
The offshore work is interesting. Generally I am opposed to shipping manufacturing jobs overseas. Once the cost of transport is included the price differential closes and as a country we are losing a lot as the money leaves the country. American workers tend to spend their earnings here in America, which in turn generates more tax revenue, etc. Business does what is best for business, at least on the individual level and most operate on a short time horizon. Free trade is a nice academic theory but who on Zero hedge thinks that the most foreign markets are as open as ours?
That said, I am having some software developed by experienced and well educated engineers in India for about 5% of what it would have cost me stateside. No job loss though as I could not have afforded the custom software even if I tried to hire a college kid on the cheap. I have a little start up. I do try to stay with American workers all of whom I have found to be excellent and hard working.
You are an example of the "Walmart syndrome". People shop at Walmart because of the low, low prices but don't consider the damage to society as a whole (no more mom-and-pop local businesses). There is a pet supply store close to my house that has been around for 40 years and is family owned. I buy all my dog food there and I don't care if I pay extra for it because I want to support them. If you go to Paris, the same attitude prevails in that people go to the restaurants in the section of town in which they live.
Impoverishing yourself does not help society. All it does is support a corrupt and decaying government.
Buy the cheap stuff, use your savings to buy gold and silver, then invest that money in industrial production once the current government has collapsed, or become capital friendly. If you can't wait that long, leave the country and start a business in a more friendly nation. From there, you can wait out the end of America as we know her, and hope for the re-emergence of America as your great-grandfather knew her, at which point you can bring your accumulated capital back and help to rebuild.
Whenever someone starts using the phrase "society as a whole", the warning flags come up. Artificially supporting prices doesn't do anyone any good, even if it means exporting jobs in the short term. Again, all it does is give the government more power. If you REALLY want to stick it to them, while supporting local commerce, make those transactions under the table. Pay no taxes, go to work for them at less pay than you normally get, but net more as no taxes are taken out, etc. This way SHOULD make those goods cheaper than what you can get at Walmart, and you will be supporting REAL economic growth without feeding the bloated cancer that is our government.
I would argue that the current high unemployment is a direct result of society (there's that word again) seeking out the lowest possible price, because that was what drove most of our manufacturing overseas and took all of the formerly middle-class manufacturing jobs with it. Sorry, but I will continue to patronize Bothell Pet & Feed Center and Walmart can blow me.
Businesses seek out the lowest cost for expenses and inputs... ALL businesses (even those that remain solely domestic)... this is inherent in the profit motive. Where they seek these out is simply a function of our will to accomodate them.
PS, your beloved doggie food store is importing that shit from china...
exactly, the only way to really stick it to them is for everyone to make their own shit and barter... plan to leave the grid though..and hope your well doesnt get any 'accidental' chemical spills
Guess you missed this part:
"I could not have afforded the custom software even if I tried to hire a college kid on the cheap"
These days, an increase in productivity (perhaps by implementing software) can mean the difference between surviving (or hiring more US workers) or not.
I suppose you would rather his business fail and he lay off the domestic workers in addition to the Indian?
ETA: By the way I agree with you on the Walmart front, I just don't think this is a valid comparison. And I just noticed the Bothell location--I worked in that town (WA) for 10 years.
write your own damn code - if you cant then just pick a different business..i guess you plan to outsource your customer service and tech help too?? with one of those godawful voice only activated answering navigational systems??
I'm not in that kind of business. If I were, I would be inclined to take your advice and learn how to do it myself.
In this climate though, I can't fault some one for hiring an Indian to write some code. Isn't that the definition of a free market? Two entities agreeing on a price for a product or service?
Teach a man to fish...
An an ex used to say:
Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day.
Teach a man to fish, you get rid of him for the whole weekend.
that's some chatty sassy stuff right there...
Nobull, our society is significantly educated enough. Unemployed engineers are dime a dozen in the US. The point is the profits made by shipping our jobs to the BRIC economies are going to the elite. The issue is companies found a cheaper way to manufacture and increase their profits. Screw average US citizens.
While I agree that there are many unemployed engineers, that does not mean that our society is well educated. I guarantee you that every one of the engineers you describe can find work in the US - the problem is that they want to make $50-100k/year, not $5-20k/year. If they want to work at that price, there will be employers lining up to hire them.
I would also add that due to immigration, America today has a far greater proportion of lazy people who expect a high standard of living. There are FAR too many high school graduates going off to get useless BA degrees from low-quality colleges, and not nearly enough going to technical school.
In my opinion, anyone going to college and choosing a non-technical major should sign away their rights to unemployment or other types of welfare coverage. If you do not learn a trade and are not willing to work at a market wage, then you are not equipped in modern society.
Sorry.
"a non-technical major"
Would that include getting a BS that leads to a CPA license?
If so, you know where to shove your comments.
What are we supposed to do? Work at McDonalds?
Maybe I should get a degree in computer science so my job can be outsourced?
Maybe I should become a carpenter/welder/drywaller/carpetlayer/etc so that an illegal immigrant can underbid my job because they work for 7 bucks an hour and live 15 to a 2 bedroom house?
Maybe I should become a plumber or electrician so that my job can be underbid by illegal immigrants?
There's a ton of work in construction now, you know...
Even during the housing boom, many people I know that worked in the trades had to shut down their business building houses because of...???
Illegal immigrants.
++ Johnny Bravo. You got it. I heard an interview with Dennis Gartman on Bloomberg yesterday morning and almost drove off the road. In a nutshell, telling Tom Keene that blue collar work is essentially "dead" in this country and people will need to get advanced skills and join the new economy. (adapt or die) I believe he has seriously lost his mind, and his f-ing elitist garbage spewing forth made me want to puke. This is how "they" think. It makes no sense at all. We need this market/global economic crash more then most people know... if for no other reason to reset the board and bring reality back to life.
I sometimes think that technical degree holders are the new proletarian, and from a capitalists perspective they are much better than non-degree holding workers because they have little or no class consciousness. If you tell them that they make less money than a non-degreed, union worker then they will think it is because union workers are overpaid, and they will not stop to think that maybe it is their lack of collectivization that is causing them to be underpaid.
I think that maybe we don't teach enough hard math and science prior to college, so the technical bachelor degrees are forced to cover a wide range of technical topics at the expense of non-technical topics. This seems to yield smart technicians with little classical education.
This might be why some people push for others to get technical degrees.
It's a little more complicated than that Johnny. There are VERY few skilled locals that want to work construction. Every one wants to sit behind a desk and get rich/comfortable.
Parents don't want their children to get into the trades. They should "work smart, not hard". Having a son or daughter as a blue collar worker is a sign of failure here.
The vast majority of the local kids that do go into the trades are the bottom of the barrel.
Send the illegals home and watch as every crop rots on the vine and every house turns to dust.
I could charge an absolute fortune for my skills if you all sent the illegals packing.
Be careful what you wish for.
a sign of failure where??? in your crusty imperialist ivory tower?? middle management and a salesforce didn't make this country great
My view is a little skewed. I've been in the 130 degree attics and rat corpse infested basements of all the ivory towers for 30 years.
As I've proved many times on ZH, I'm quite dense and often miss the sarcasm/humor in other's posts but................
I think we are of like mind.
Corrections accepted with appropriate humility(my own, not yours).
I wish people would re-think this utterly predictable, oft-repeated rant, because it's shallow and untrue.
your "problem" with "illegal immigrants" is false JohnnyB - the root cause is the people who HIRE illegally - if the businesses didn't hire underpaid labour, then you'd not have the "15 to a 2 bedroom house" people here WORKING for those lousy wages. . . up thread is yet another explanation of how business seeks the cheapest form of set-up and run, because it's the nature of business (apparently).
and by the way folks, multi-family housing, coming to your neighbourhood sooner than you think. . .
"the problem is that they want to make $50-100k/year, not $5-20k/year. If they want to work at that price, there will be employers lining up to hire them."
Even if some engineer said, yes I'll take 10K/yr, guess what? That's suicidal in an economy where his basic costs of living are well above that 10K salary. When he loses his house/apartment is he going to sleep under his desk?
'market wage' so when competing vs a slave wage nation, be ready to accept a market wage close to $0 ?
The capitalist snake has eaten most of itself...
@Noble NoBull'94
"The difference is that in the '30s there was still manufacturing. Today, our unemployed and welfare recipients are paid 10-20x as much as productive manufacturing personnel in India"
You got that right. Don't hear many folk voicing the fact that we are fooked manufacturing wise either until our wages drop to their level.....or their wages rise or a combination of the two....I wonder where the twain shall meet? Their $1 a day or our $100 a day.....
NoBull, thanks for sharing that link. Terrifyingly prescient.
So are you saying that we should cut the unemployed people's checks down to say .15 cents an hour? Of course, it's insurance. Insurance that people paid into. Kinda like, you know, when you get sick you see a doctor. I hear this a lot now that people are paid too much. Really? You need to adjust things to the regional cost of living. Not everything is so simple.
Got to somehow throw in total debt to GDP to worker... I may just make such a chart now.
I'll check back later.
not sure how to download date and make this easy.
took total civilian work force divided by total population. In 1983, 42% of pop was employed. Today, 44.8% of pop is employed. (138/309)
Debt to GDP was 183% in 1983, today it's 357%.
Dividing total debt to GDP % by pop % working to get Debt to GDP to % worker.. its now 796%, was 431% in 1983.
I think now I would prefer to see "income earned from Wages" as a % of total debt being better way to see this.
We've reached such a saturation in debt load.. want to find best way to show the limit has been reached. Can't possibly lever up any more.
Hmm. Seems a lot of things are going back to the '80's. I'm waiting for someone to hit the Internet KILL switch any minute now.
@St. Louis Branch of the Den of Thieves
Thanks for this analysis.
While I suspect "they" might consider a selective Internet kill switch to shut down "problem" web sites (hint : ZH) they won't "shut down" the Internet. Consider how many people pay their bills on line by visiting web sites. Every time I log on to my credit card web sites, they try to get me to switch to paperless statements.
I already pay them all, along with my mortgage and utilities, via the web. I don't have automatic pay set up because I want to control the day I pay. But I, and millions of others, pay on line. And think of all the Internet commerce as well. It would be a bullet to the head to "shut down" the Internet. And it wouldn't be needed.
essentially agree.
internet kill comes after riots start, when nobody is using it for commerce but they are using it to organise resistance. When cost of keeping internet is higher than cost of turning it off, they will turn it off, not before.
Cursive was talking about hitting the Internet kill switch any minute now. That was what I was responding to. Your supposition that under much more dire conditions they would shut the thing down is most likely correct.
I will point out that the side that declares they're engaging in measured responses will always be the side that's throwing 16 inch shells at the people lobbing grenades. The USA has a long history of crying in righteous indignation at some inflated or created foul at the same time they're applying a scorched earth policy. Hypocrisy is what I think they call it. It's what governments, and government teat suckers, were made for.
Recalling the pictures and such that emanated from Iran during the riots, they'd have to shut down a helluva lot more than the Internet to stop an insurrection. Cell phones would have to be included in the mix -- that is not going to happen. It's like the argument about confiscating gold, it would be of no use except to make a situation even worse than it already is.
The key missing link is a coherent set of principles and corresponding values, on the one hand, and plausible sociopolitical structures, on the other. Nothing could stop that.
Alas, without the nugget of brilliant political philosophy, informed by a solid working knowledge of essentially everything then known in any field, which the Founding Fathers had, such a task ***MAY*** be impossible.
Today it would be almost like a 'wikirevolution' of a million authors, or else a wave embracing one or a few tracts.
Otherwise, we are already in a widely decentralized breakdown of some structures, without many knowing or caring....but that in my view cannot substitute for many, many things. Perhaps a return to the 1890s, or 1690s, is inevitable, but I do not believe it is actually fated or written in the stars...it is instead in the hands of good Americans and others to make our futures rather than get made.
Thanks for being "here" and sharing all that you do
Seems a lot of things are going back to the '80's.
So, when's that Flock of Seagulls reunion gonna happen, eh?
Synth-pop, bitchz!
You might like this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a41S3dp_U_s
Someone turned me onto them last month. They have some creepy stuff, but it ain't all bad.
St Louis house of ill repute, don't kiss em, they be frenchified.
"The administration thinks it can pull a fast one..."
Remove "thinks it" and you're nearer the truth, sadly
Obama is not pulling a fast one on all of the non starters who voted for him. They notice no change at all - or even better more government benefits. He is pulling a fast one on anyone who pays any kind of taxes though. The problem is that of the people he is impacting, about 75 percent of them realize it. the remaining 25 along with all of the non starters will be a formidable force come election time. The reason we had a republic of laws was to stop this type of bs, but when was the last time we had a republic? Or laws?
There is about 150 million registered voters. 65 million voted for Obama. So your essentially calling 65 million people "non starters." And then say in the next sentence that they don't pay taxes either. These people are not a "force to be reckoned with" they are America. I feel that gets lost a lot. Just sayin'.
It was poor wording on my part. Not everyone who voted for him are non-starters. I categorize non-starters in this context as anyone who is absolutely dependant on government hand outs for their existance and uses the ballot to keep that hand out coming. They are non starters because they will be unable to start until they stop inviting government into their lives - and it seems the more they invite the government into their lives, the more they force the government into everyone elses lives. Not all Obama voters are non starters. Heck, I think if you vote for either of the big parties you are screwing your country.
To be fair, that's -4% during the Bush administration and virtually flat during the Obama administration.
But then again, why should we be fair when government hasn't given fair treatment to the public. They all deserve the epic fail tag. I'm sure that number drops back to the 56-58% channel by 2012.
It's not that Obama caused it, rather that he denies it or claims it is improving.
Rag replace Obama with "teleprompter"..
He is the ultimate "empty suit".
Obama took the worst of Bush policies and applied hyper-drive
to them.
Also, keep in mind that Bush was lame duck since Dems took both
houses of Congress and started running things in '06.
Tyler, the chart link is incorrect.
fixed
Sure they can. Ignore it, obscure it, denounce it as wrong or incorrect, call you a traitor or a fear monger. There are plenty of ways to ignore reality.
word
I believe you actually had Seven words.
I remain deeply saddened that we will never again hear words from George Carlin, except perhaps repeat performances care of YouTube etc. Alas, that must sufice for now as an adequate substitute until someone comes along to fill his shoes, an extremely unlikely event.
But then again, one can hope. George would call me a miserable fool for my pathetic hope. :>)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Carlin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_dirty_words
ha
ignore is most likely, or claim that it demonstrates how the US is 'poised' for growth like in the 1980s.
It's all terrorism to me. After all, we're all terrorists for free thinking!
....now back to war fabrication.
Damn, gotta love that source, mad props Tyler :)
the s&p is yet to catch up with that last leg down...
don't the build-er-better-burgers want the globe back to pre 1990 levels of 'activity'....?
they didn't count on the power of the hot tub time machine to the 80's.
Reagan?.... think Carter. The liberal moron. Those numbers where the result of exporting the steel industry just to get us warmed up for the great globalization that has brought us to the point of total capitulation.
Segestan, that subject is off limits - "free trade and globalization "must never ever be questioned..
so demands the CFR.
if we do, than, we must ( on the facts) end up charging the federal gov for the last 40 years as traitors
Wilson's league of Nations and the Federal Reserve creation was step one.
No one wants to address the fact that America has exported it's economy to death.
I know... I'm sorry I don't know why I felt honesty would be OK..
Seriously... America has been used and abused.
The only chart that matters to whom?
Because the only thing that matters to the markets right now is QE2.0. The market could give a damned about this or any other chart you (or anyone else) puts up.
I'd be in favor of QE 2 if Ben literally dropped hundos on the masses from his favorite helicopter.
If black helicopters hover over my home/office, I'm bunkering in, not running out to the lawn to look for the fiat.
I don't think the BO dream team has the philosophy or the talent to reverse and increase the slope, on their own. Something will have to "appear" from other sources.
Mr. Obama's goal is to increase the size and influence of the federal government. He views private sector employment as a temporary nuisance, and his union buddies will deal with those "holdouts" as necessary. When your goal is to make government 95% of the economy, it's OK to throw a few passengers out of the balloon basket as you ascend Utopia Mountain.
That great leader and Marxist philosopher, Pol Pot, said it best when he summed up the guiding principal of his transformational policies, "To keep you is no benefit, to destroy you is no loss."
@rogerwilco
Lady, your post is so riddled with total nonsense that I'm inclined to diagnose you with Paranoid Personality Disorder. Not only is it marked with paranoia, it's usually accompanied with odd and eccentric behavior. Are you hoarding guns and ammo? Cultivating a farm in your backyard, perhaps? In case of urban warfare, have you found a neighbor that can supply you with eggs? Comb your hair with a dead fish yesterday?
For your own benefit and to understand yourself better, I humbly recommend that you take the PDI-21 Test (Peters Delusion Inventory), and immediate begin a 5mg treatment with Haloperidol. In rare cases, your frontal cortex may have to be detached from the rest of your brain. From a surgical standpoint, it's very complex, but it may restore some sanity to your life.
Mr. Obama's goal is to increase the size and influence of the federal government.
How is the increase in the size, power and influence of our government under Obama any different than the increase under Bush?
He views private sector employment as a temporary nuisance.
Pure lunacy.
When your goal is to make government 95% of the economy...
Can you post any proof to back up that claim?
What's the matter, Red Neck? The elections getting a little closer and those pesky employment numbers just won't cooperate for you and your fellow Dems?? Oh, and the "blame Bush" or "things were worse under Bush" arguments aren't really gaining any traction outside of your political circle.
Just trying to provide some balance to the hyper-paranoid, outrageously delusional right-wing, hypocritical garbage that infests this site on a daily basis.
By the way, that is not a comment about Tyler, rather a comment about the tin foil nutbags in cheap seats section.
Go ahead and buy your guns and ammo. Ask your neighbors about eggs and water. Pretend that Obama is the next Hitler, while your mask of sanity slips further and further.
Many of you are creating a world around youselves that simply doesn't exist.
Hah, for the record I think the "I will become a self-sufficient farmer" people are delusional and I don't think Obama is Satan. I think he's a guy that was seduced by his rapid rise to think that he was the smartest guy in the room when in fact he's totally in over his head. Economically, at least, he doesn't have a clue and I think he's making a big mistake in over-valuing his so-called oratorical powers. That being said, McCain would have been just as bad and Palin would be a disaster. If only we could convince Chris Christie to run for president in 2012, then I might have Change I Could Belive In.
Funny how whenever you Republicrats come to power you can't see that the powers you are grabbing for yourselves will only be used against you when the other Republicrats take office.
You people deserve each other. Walk hand in hand to the gallows.
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps I'm not a Democrat?
I focus on the Republicans because the hypocrisy is deeper and richer. There's far more lunacy on that side of the isle.
Small government? Less taxes? Laissez Faire? Fiscal prudence? The ability to manage our military? Sarah fucking Palin - What the fuck was that all about? The Republicans actually thought she was/is the best candidate to run the most powerful economy and military in the world?
All of it - out of this cosmos bullshit!
Lol....
The modern Republican party is nothing but a bait-and-switch marketing campaign designed to fool the faith, family, flag wingnuts.
You are lying.. You are a democrat. Your words prove it and it's not hard to see.
Anyone with an unbiased view of republicrats can see what i'm saying.
The left/right paradigm is destroying this country and dividing people on issues only as a diversion.
If what you are saying is true, that you are not a democrat, your comments would have reflected it more..
double
Dunno if you realize this, so just to be sure: those are not things the current Republican party stands for. Some of them might say they do, but they don't. Similarly, Democrats are fascists with a thin veneer of populism, another bait-and-switch. I can't see how that is any less rich of a vein of hypocrisy to exploit.
Another flavor of hypocrisy is disingenuousness.
@red neck Just repeat the Obama mantra "Yes we can!", "Spread the wealth around", "The problem is not too much government". Feel better?
I deal with the federal government on a regular basis. It is getting larger and less competent by the day. Under your hero, the rate of devolution seems to have increased markedly as the remaining competent staffers head for the exits. They will be replaced, mostly by losers, sycophants, and goons with essentially zero interest in public service, just 9-5 and a regular paycheck.
Obviously, your response is very generic and you're incapable of backing up your claims.
Exactly as I thought.
It's straight from the Glenn Beck/Rush Limbaugh/Sarah Palin playbook.
Total bullshit, as usual.
Hey Red Neck. You're spot on. I bet your not even a dem either but some of the posters think that because even though they decry facism they are in fact the embodiment of it since any view that conflicts with their own is ridiculed and junked. This board was once the site of serious discussion. I feel that day is over and may never be coming back because people get so turned off by the sheer lunacy of some comments that make the Yahoo boards relatively sanitized.
If he were not a democrat, we would hear some of the much deserved criticizm of the democratic policies.. Instead, we hear a one sided pounding of the republicans, which I agree with.
Mr Durden has the ability to point that out far more eloquently than I can.
That's a good point but I believe he was only addressing the comment at hand and not starting any conversation.
The problem isn't Repugnifuck's ideas, but his automatic labeling of anyone who would deem themselves Conservative as: Republican, Red-Neck, Paranoid, Bunker-nut, Beck Follower, etc.
Some of us simply despise the Government as it exists currently. Right now, it is being run by Obama, so he takes the brunt. Most of the people that Repugnifuck rants against were just as outraged by Bush. And just as dismayed at the road we've been on for decades.
Repugnifuck's all out partisan attack mode, never really bringing ANYTHING to the table except insults is why he is so disliked. Maybe if he would acknowledge other's opinions as valid, and then civilly argue???
The 58% level appears significant - it took three decades and four tries to punch through that level. And, the push was only successful on the heels of the biggest burst of inflation in post-war history. The resulting follw up was a staggering explosion of gold prices.
The quality of the jobs that people are hiring into are much lower than the jobs they got downsized from. Also, at most companies, very few annual raises are being given out. This is a form of deflation.
+1. Moreover, manufacturing temps in our market make about $8/hour, and they are having to produce resumes now. Amazing how competitive things have become over positions that, 2 years ago, went begging for talent.
One thing this chart doesn't show is the composition of the work force. We are probably head back to and below 55, but this time the number of women in the workforce will probably be proportionately higher than it was in the 40's and 60's (when Rosie the Riveter and female employment began the upward swing). Why do I mention this? Because demographically, we face the risk of becoming more and more like Japan. A declining birth rate leads to an unsustainable social safety net. Optimists will say that immigration can fill the drop in birth rate, but that gets us back to assimilation issues and the underground economy. If the USG doesn't allow deflationary forces to allow younger people opportunities to start families, we will never recover.
Young people need jobs more than anything else. Many of my friends already have families that they are having trouble supporting after being downsized.
They have good skills too. I know an engineer, an accountant, and a welder just in my group of personal friends that have been downsized (and many, many more "unskilled" workers)
Like I said, give us jobs, and the recovery can follow. Screw the baby boomers, who did nothing but cause this mess. Let them be destitute until they milk social security like they milked everything else from our generation....
...he writes -- on his computer -- the original designers and engineers being retired.
Get a grip. No generation is any worse than any other. There will be jobs for younger people when there is a demand for their skills, not before. And I'm not talking about jobs from degrees in finance or ethnic studies.
Rocky, you are a voice of reason on this board, but I have to agree with Bravo. Unlike you, a majority of the Boomers have a negative net worth at this point. They have spent every dime they have had and lots of dimes they didn't have. They have no choice but to stay in the workforce longer... typically holding the highest paying jobs. While I agree that the younger generations contribute to this mess by designing the code these HFT-Atari trading bots use, it is under the direction from the top... still the Boomer generation.
The simple demographic shift of the pig at last working its way out of the python is going to produce various economic challenges for younger generations to address... and if we walk away at all in 1 piece we will still have very little to show for it. Not bitching, but most have to admit that the structural challenges the up and coming generations face are huge.
Your reasoned reply is appreciated as well. Don't read too much into my remark. I am just saying that there is no difference in how each generation handles its circumstances. There are folks who are Bad Johnny's age who are not saving, and don't intend to. What's the diff? The old farts hold the high paying jobs because they know more, just from having survived long enough to learn more. Not difficult. There are dolts in all generations, just the same. Blaming the old folks for things being the way they are is a cop out.
Technically, you don't need jobs, but rather you need goods. Everyone in the Soviet Union had a job, but they still starved, because their "money" wouldn't buy anything.
Government programs to create jobs tend to simply consume capital goods. Cut the government interference in the economy back to 1920 levels, and we will have a 1920 style recovery from this depression, ie 6 month to a year.
Good point. When people talk about jobs what they really mean is a paycheck. We got an idiotic notion in this country that jobs can be created without producing anything but mountains of paper. Nations that don't produces goods die. Look at all the great "trading powers" of the world, Britain, Venice, Holland, Phonecia, among many others (and soon to be US), none of them lasted long because they were all dependent on the production of others who ultimately withdrew their production from the traders greedy fingers.
Jobs don't matter unless they're productive. Goods are irrelevant unless they have value to the society.
Productive work is the only source of wealth. Productive being the key.
Just a job might be filling a hole somebody else dug the day before. It creates work and might fill a niche in a Keynsian model. But no wealth is created by such a job, only wages that are taken from somebody else.
And just producing salad shooters may provide jobs and paychecks, but the benefit to the civilization is minimal at best. So again not much wealth being created, other than taking money from somebody who actually produces wealth.
What we're watching these days is a constant reduction of wealth by the loss of productive jobs. This is coupled with the increased production of money issued against the existing wealth. The inevitible result is lots of money, not much wealth.
Everything that we do to save ourselves has to be geared toward putting more and more people back to work at PRODUCTIVE work.
What most of us have lost sight of is the vital concept of producing wealth, instead chasing after the various markers we use to measure wealth accumulation. But the markers have become mistaken for wealth itself.
It simplistic as hell, but I will repeat it again and again:
Wealth is the surplus left over after we've taken care of the basic necessities of survival for ourselves and our families; food, shelter and clothing. This wealth is the basis of civilization.
No useful work means eventually there's no economy. No economy means civilization itself goes away.
It's as basic as a populist political platform. And like the wheel, it works.
Productive work is the source of all human wealth.
And to the guy who asked, "What if I pick an apple from my neighbor's tree, surely that's not wealth." Of course it's wealth. You provide the work by picking the apple. And you create banking by taking the apple from your neighbor's tree.
Stagflation bitchez.
What does it matter? Algos pushing the market higher no matter what. I will conect my old HP 48 SX to do all my trading (buying). Will work just fine, cuz Ben told me so.
OT: Hungarians Battle to Keep Homes in Face of Strong Swiss Franc
http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aHgWF2XNsJ7M&pos=6
The banksters are licking their chops!
Flesh and bone.
Right, nothing a Swiss banker wants more than an empty, defaulted on house in Hatvan.
Why do you think there's been so much "institutional" HUF buying as of late?
Damn, hope it doesn't mean disco will be making a come back!
Favorite bumper sticker from the early 80s:
"DISCO SUCKS!!!
(and if you disagree, you do too.)"
If you were still riding the Disco Sucks train in the 80s, something was amiss.
Zappa tied up up in a bow and made a hit out of it.
"Run to the toilet honey comb your hair"
During this ame time 2-income families became the norm, so dropping down to the levels when single income families was the norm, while our debt levels, total taxes (not fed tax rate) and more have risen, this does not end well.
It has caught almost up to Italian levels, I believe here the occupation level is 45% or something like that!
"Christina Romer's replacement can say to put lipstick on the below piggly chart."
There is one thing she could say if you chose to be truthful.
The above chart is incorrect as it does not take into account many forms of independent employment and therefore is worse than it appears.
First only men went to work, then the feminists showed up and drove the ratio a lot higher in the 70's and 80's.
Now AI robots are putting men and feminists out of work, just like on the Jetsons, so the ratio is dropping.
Is there something wrong with the word "women"?
Yes there is - it has the word "men" in it.
interesting
Interesting indeed. Speaks volumes. I wonder if someone is suffering seizures from early childhood nipple retraction syndrome. I out grew mine when I finally hit puberty in my 50's.
+++!
I suspect it's not strong enough to convey the hatred he feels towards half the human race. . .
one of my favourite lol's here was the "feminists were created & funded by the Rockefellers to steal amrkn men's jobs". . .
*snort*
sweet H&S
The issue that some of you are not really thinking about is that total employment as a percentage of population is potentially reverting to an historical level. That, in and of itself, isn't necessarily bad (in the abstract). In addition, if you factor in productivity gains and technology, you will find that some commentators have theories of "less is more or equal." It is tough to prove that this is right or wrong, but productivity is supposed to increase capex and increase employment; at least in traditional thinking. I guess this means that we will revert back to the 1950's with mom in the kitchen...
deflation is the consquence of higher productivity, things get cheaper. Notice how the modern welfare recipient lives better than 99% of US citizens did in the 19th century. Not sure how much Chinease slave labor has caused this though.
More men are being let go than women.
women get paid less.
like "illegals" - see upthread for a discussion on "low overheads". . .
do the math.
What we have is proof of the breakdown of the old order, the success formula for the US economy in the post World War 2 era.
At some point, higher "productivity" only means income deflation. People simply get paid less. ANd that trend has been in full flower for over 3 decades in real terms, and has been acutely stronger since the crisis began. Don't look for a reversal of the trend as the effects of massive unemployment and global competition take hold. The old solutions no longer work. They aggravate the depression.
I liked my Mom in the kitchen in the 50s. She was always there when we got home from school. She baked every other day. We had a real sit down dinner every night when Dad got home from work (though sometimes on the night before payday it was potato soup). She packed our lunches for school. We didn't really have many things, but neither did anybody else. My children had more things, as we both worked, but I'm not sure those things gave them a happier childhood than mine.
My wife's quitting next week, can you adjust that chart for her please?
With the NFP news, why isn't the market up at least 300 already? C'mon algos, time's a-waisting. Time to re-engage the reality-disconnect drive. Warp-8. Make it so. Picard out.
DOW11,000 by noon.
Everyone is talking about the "search for the elusive yield". I see mountains of it on the downside.
ECRI WLIgr
slight uptic today
current -10.3%
prior -10.7%