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End Game - Would US Police/Troops Fire Upon US Citizens?
End Game - Would US Police/Troops Fire Upon US Citizens?
By
Cognitive Dissonance
This is the first in an occasional series examining the end of the American Empire and the global shock waves it will produce. Contrary to popular belief I suspect the unraveling will take place over many years, decades even, with sudden plunges and slow partial recoveries aka dead cat bounces. I call this series of examinations “End Game”.
I would wager that the vast majority of people reading this essay have already come to their own conclusion regarding the answer to the title’s query. Certainly you may have several qualifiers and stipulations with which you framed your answer and maybe even a few facts and proofs ready for quick rebuttal if challenged. But my own experience with explosive questions such as this is that there are few who have not already formed an opinion on the matter. If you have not you would be the exception to the rule.
And at this point in the meltdown it would be fair to say there are no correct or incorrect answers to be found, only supposition, assumption and what I expect will be full throated argument to follow in the comment section. May I suggest that whatever answer you’ve come up with wasn’t necessarily arrived at through careful deliberation or contemplation, but rather as an integral part of your overall belief system? And while you may consider all that you believe to be valid and fact based, for all people other than possibly the sociopaths walking among us this is far from the case.
Personally I find that sitting down and writing about a subject forces me to push through all the fuzzy logic and tenuous connections that make up my system of beliefs. For most of us what we think we know or believe is similar to a loosely connected debris field of facts, thoughts, myths, hopes and desires floating on the mind’s surface. Only in this case there really isn’t much mixing or removal of the thought debris by intellectual wave action, just a lifelong rearrangement of the floating deck chairs. When strong emotions are brought into the mix, it’s like a hurricane came through and made an even bigger mess of things.
Much of our belief system is firmly stuck in heavy mud by our late twenties, having been absorbed and adopted during our early years by way of our state mandated education, the popular press, corporate branding initiatives, consensus opinion, deliberately false public myth making and the always present and rarely subtle corporate and governmental propaganda machines. And what we call our mid life crisis is simply that period of time when we begin to call into question many of the basic and fundamental tenets that have guided us to that point. We usually get through this moment of clarity when the bills start piling up and the libido finally begins to fail care of our chemically treated foodstuffs. In practice what we believe is not a coherent jigsaw puzzle held together by reason and “facts”, but rather little islands of hope and belief that would contradict or outright cancel each other like matter and anti-matter if they ever came into contact with one other. I see this all the time not just here in The Hedge (both in the comment section and in various articles from multiple sources) but in newspapers, magazines, blogs, TV and radio; the list really is endless. Selective memory and a convoluted thought process isn’t just the domain of think tanks and the MSM. The alternative press and blogosphere are often just as guilty as well, it being one of the hazards of swimming in the same festering cesspool. Read or listen to any person long enough and you eventually begin to detect errors in logical thought and fact as well as serious conflicts between a person’s articles, books, and lectures; even at times within a specific article or essay. I find this holds true for nearly everyone (including myself) regardless of our denial that it’s happening. Courage is required to challenge our own thinking and weed these discrepancies out. Sadly it’s so much easier to isolate and ignore these inconsistencies then to purge them and face the ugly truths left behind. We hide from ourselves long before we flee the boogie man. The masks we wear in public are crude imitations of the ones we carry within.
Judging from conversations I’ve had with many people from diverse backgrounds the majority of souls seem to come down into one of two camps. For the most part the responses I’ve gathered consist of either “No….but” and “Yes….but” with the clear winner the middle ground of qualified “buts”. When questioned more than superficially and asked to explain or justify their stance, many shamelessly switch back and forth between sides and arguments, proving to me that their opinion is based upon nothing more substantial than wishful thinking and hope. However, most do understand that there are huge variables involved anytime a gun is pointed and fired, regardless of whether the person fired upon is armed or not.
Obviously at this point in the great American unwind no police or military units are patrolling the streets gunning down all who are seen as threatening. And this wasn’t what I was suggesting would happen……at least not unless worse case scenarios are achieved. But the end of the American Empire is approaching, a process that will unravel over decades. And it would be hopelessly naïve or even terminally ignorant to believe that any high ranking “authority” in America has anyone’s interest first other than their own. We can love our slave masters all we want, but they love us only for any remaining productive worth we may offer and no more.
Any remaining belief in high ranking honorable “public servants” should have been thoroughly abandoned after witnessing the outrageous antics of the financial elite and politically connected over the last ten years and particularly the last five. We are all expendable cannon fodder and contrary to any official assurances from the professional propagandists that we are all loved and cared about, we have always been so. Denial of this basic fact is the only real roadblock to a fuller understanding of what’s being done in my name and yours.
False hope inevitably binds us to truly impossible situations and this has consistently been our Achilles Heel, a weakness ruthlessly exploited by the rich and powerful for millennium. The almost universally accepted Abrahamic religious redeemer complex is the ultimate (self) enslavement vehicle. In effect, it forgives those who dish out the punishment and glorifies the suffering of those who are being punished. Talk about your dysfunctional relationship, how are we to live in peace and harmony when the basic tenets of the majority of the world’s religions glorify those who grind our bones to make their bread?
First let’s take a look at who or what would be patrolling the streets under the guise of “keeping the peace”, “finding the terrorists” or whatever excuse the government manufactures in order to justify placing armed uniformed men and women in the population centers of America. And for the purpose of this essay there is the assumption that something has happened or was caused to happen that will be used by the powers that be to deploy police/troops in America under the cover of maintaining law and order.
BTW, we should clearly understand that the real reason the troops will be deployed is to maintain and possibly even consolidate the existing power structure of the powers that be. Or at a minimum to keep the lynch mobs and revenge seekers at bay long enough to make their escape. Is this truly that surprising? After all we have devolved into a banana republic and that’s the way all bananas are eventually peeled.
Initially there would be the local police, supposedly the first line of defense in maintaining the peace. And despite the obvious fact that over the last ten or so years they have been increasingly militarized, the police are for the most part trained to resolve conflict through non-violent means. Or at least that’s the official public myth. Only after you don’t agree with their non violent solution do they pull out their Tasar or Glock. If the first thing you experience is fear when you see flashing lights in the rearview mirror, I would ask you to reconsider the validity of their “non-violent” mission.
Just conduct a “police brutality” YouTube search if you’d like a video lesson on officially sanctioned violence in America. Between the images cruiser dashboard cams have documented and those candid camera videos various citizens have captured via camera phone it’s quite clear police violence isn’t just perpetrated by a few rogue cops on an occasional basis. Instead it appears to be a systemic problem that’s growing worse by the day. A Google word search using the same term will bring back tens of thousands of hits, more than enough to turn your stomach and send the meek and mind controlled scurrying back to the safety of their warm beds. The formerly carefully hidden police state is now coming into full view.
The second line of defense would be the National Guard. If we were talking twenty years ago I might make a disparaging remark about weekend warriors more dangerous to themselves than to others. But eight years of rotations through Iraq and Afghanistan have turned the National Guard into something your father wouldn’t recognize. Without getting too deep into the merits of today’s Guard, better trained has its pluses and minuses as long as we understand what they have now been trained to do.
Then there is the military itself, most likely Army and possibly Special Forces units that will provide the actual boots on the ground. Ever since the creation of NORTHCON on October 1, 2002, supposedly as a direct result of 9/11, the political and financial elite have been overtly preparing for the inevitability of social unrest. Covert preparations extend back decades under cover of any available and plausible excuse in the book.
The military readily admits that it’s not properly trained to execute (no pun intended) domestic police actions and they agree they would be poorly suited to maintain order during any chaotic domestic uprising. And I agree. Home invasions by the military would be just as distasteful for Americans as they are for the Iraqis regardless of what it’s called and under whatever bullshit legal premise it has been authorized.
I can’t help but wonder if the UN Security Council will sanction an invasion of America by a “coalition of the willing” when our time comes around? Don’t laugh because I’m being deadly serious. Do not underestimate the measures the desperate will use to remain in power and don’t assume the rich and powerful are physically located only in the USA. It’s a global game and America has been the home field only for the last 70 or so years. It helps to remember that stock sectors aren’t the only thing that rotates. BTW notice that the eagle below covers all of North America, not just the USA.
On a side note, I still find it amazing how many political/military actions were a direct result of 9/11 yet nobody wants to seriously discuss what really went down that day. Careful because you might not like the stench of whatever it is you dig up. We all complain about political and governmental secrecy, but the vast majority of Americans don’t want to know what’s going on and are happier when they are deceived. The big lie we gratefully participate in is that we are a free and self directed people. It’s so much better to let buried dogs lay undisturbed where they can quickly decompose out of sight and mind.
And let’s not forget the foreign troops that will be invited to conduct joint exercises on American soil. On February 14, 2008 Northcom and the Canada Command agreed to come to each other’s “aid” in the event of a civil crisis such as floods, forest fires, hurricanes, earthquakes and “the effects of a terrorist attack”. While this description comes from the PR propaganda on Northcom’s web site I would love to read the actual document. Naturally Congress wasn’t consulted and were actually sidestepped entirely. It didn’t matter anyway since they were too busy whoring for re-election contributions at the time, a time honored spring, summer, fall and winter Congressional/Corporate pornographic mating ritual.
Of course, the obvious inference here is that if American citizen soldiers are unable or unwilling to “police” their fellow US citizens, we can always call in the Canadians to help us out. Certainly our Canadian brothers and sisters will be subjected to plenty of official propaganda to prepare them for their friendly invasion. I’m sure the psyops division of both countries can come up with plenty of video of homeless Americans swimming across the Saint Lawrence River in search of Canadian food stamps and citizenship….or at least their version of the green card. There are many other “agreements” with NATO and other individual countries that have been less publicized than this one if that’s even remotely possible
Now for the sleeper “police” force very few seem willing to acknowledge or even aware enough of to intelligently discuss, but who will most certainly be invited to the nationwide block party. Naturally I’m talking about private military contractors of the Blackwater/Xe ilk, also known as privately paid (with taxpayer funds of course) and controlled mercenaries of the increasingly privatized and corporatized America. This isn’t new but rather just a recycling of an old tradition of the Federal Government using private entities to provide “security” and “crowd control”. Blackwater is just the latest.
While everyone was watching what Blackwater and others like them were (and still are) doing over in Iraq and Afghanistan (and in many other countries where they are used as embassy and corporate “security” forces) rarely do we hear about the untold billions they’re being paid for services rendered in the good old US of A. Their presence in New Orleans after Katrina was a primer on how things will be done in the future. The almighty buck is their master and it’s the only flag they salute. God bless Uncle Ben.
Last, but most assuredly not least, will be the alphabet soup of government intelligence agencies (domestic and foreign) as well as too numerous to count private “interests” pushing, prodding and provoking wherever they can to influence the outcome of the civil unrest. This will be done for any number of reasons that will most certainly be at cross purposes with the interests of the American people in general and the actual protestors in particular. This will include the FBI, CIA, DIA, Mossad, MI6, BND and dozens of other public, private and foreign “security” and intelligence organizations whose primary purpose will be the protection of the vested interests of powerful people, corporations and countries. Guess where that leaves you and me?
So who will take to the streets? Ultimately this is impossible to say because the situation will be fluid and the variables unknown and in a constant state of flux. To be frank the time to push back was late in 2008 when the globalist’s financial agenda flipped from covert to overt and their plans were finally exposed for all to see who wished to look. But decades of conditioning and propaganda was sufficient to keep the American people trapped within their own minds and unable to muster the courage to begin the process of breaking free. And once TARP was rammed through without significant or sustained resistance, the financial elite knew it was game on and they’d better get it all while the getting was good.
And getting it all is precisely what they’ve done over the last 2 plus years as private debt was systematically bought by the Federal Reserve for 100 cents on each dollar in the name of “saving” the system. Now the next leg down has begun (I am not measuring economic legs by the stock market) and where it stops nobody really knows. But after 3 years of worsening economic conditions, carefully camouflaged by an artificially pumped stock market, more and more American citizens are waking up to the fact that they’ve been ripped off and to some extent they’ve let it happen. Or at the very least they barely said a word other than bitch and complain to each other about the highway robbery.
This is where the really destructive and ultimately self defeating rage will spring from. Obviously it will be acted out as simple righteous indignation over the repeated daylight robberies of the US treasury by public and private entities. But just like a women scorned, there is no anger quite like that enjoyed by the person who suddenly realizes he or she has been conned and the active ingredient was his or her own greed and willing participation. Facing this ugly self revelation, the ego has no choice but to push every emotional button it can find in a desperate attempt to keep the mind from recognizing that it is partially responsible for its own continuing enslavement.
What usually arises from this internal blame shifting and emotional thrashing about is mindless anger directed at the “responsible” con men whose motto is there will always be customers ready to purchase the lies and self deception they’re selling. Since we can’t possibly shoulder any blame for our dance with the devil no matter how small, this anger will eventually be directed towards any handy minority (group or individual, it doesn’t really matter) who happens to be in the wrong place at the right time.
Case in point is the very recent public services union bashing, themselves just another greedy patsy on a long list of willing participants in our own self destruction. Next up is unionized grocery baggers at the local Safeway followed by Meals-On-Wheels delivery drivers. There are no lows that will not be plumed by a population trying to escape responsibility and self examination and this too will be skillfully used against us.
There is one defining characteristic we Americans proudly boast of that is singularly unique in the entire world and it has nothing to do with our standard of living, GDP or total debt. “We The People” not only believed our leader’s lies about American exceptionalism, but we bought into those lies hook, line and sinker. And for several decades the lie worked magnificently thanks to the magic of a widely accepted reserve currency which enabled us to export most of the corrosive effects of our money printing (aka inflation) outside our borders and the military to enforce it when reluctance surfaced…..such as Iraq and Afghanistan to name just two. Good times were had by all, the punch bowl never ran dry and it was all due to our superior abilities. Until now that is.
This is in contrast to the citizens of various Middle East countries (or much of the developing world for that matter) who are always painfully aware of their real state of existence. Or even the Europeans, who have lived through several thousand years of regime changes, invasions and oppression and for the most part have a much better understanding of the magnitude and scope of the official lies and propaganda and how the dance plays out.
Ultimately this didn’t save the Europeans from their own greed and self interested pursuits, but at least they aren’t completely shocked that it’s all coming apart……..once again. The ice cold shower of awakening we Americans are about to experience will be unlike anything any nation has gone through since possibly WW2 Germany beginning around 1942 when civilian centers were deliberately targeted by Allied bombing and the German population began to really feel the sting of their own self deception and mass delusion. While I have no way of knowing exactly how America’s electro shock therapy will play out, it seems self evident it’s coming if for no other reason than because I can hear the electrical generators firing up in the background. Clear!
How this affects the American psyche as well as the various ways it could play out is well beyond the scope of this essay, but suffice to say it will not be pretty. For some of us escape will be had by digging ever deeper into denial. For others, especially those who become caught up in the vicious cycle of endless anger and fits of self pity and rage, the obvious targets of their self destructive outbursts will be any low level authority figure who stands up to them and that all time favorite among those who diligently practice slave mentality, their fellow slaves. Following our passive/aggressive conditioning, many of us will seek to punish those like us before we ever consider lifting a finger against our own masters.
While I expect cooler heads among the aggrieved will attempt to exert an influence over the angry mobs and demonstrators, we must not diminish the ugly truth that there will be plenty of domestic and foreign entities that will see the coming American domestic strife and unrest as an opportunity to foment violent demonstrations and even armed and violent insurrection. The use of infiltrated agents and agent provocateurs to incite violence and disrupt peaceful protest is a well known and time honored technique used by private parties, governments and even the resistance itself (to maintain plausible deniability for example) to further their own particular goals.
The very fact that spontaneous demonstrations are by their nature unorganized and at best loosely controlled works against the intent of the people demonstrating when those who wish to disrupt and discredit are familiar with and comfortable using any means necessary to maintain or regain control over the population. The worst that can happen to any group of people working to unseat an existing power base is their failure to imagine the lengths to which those in power will go to keep it. Those who don’t lie cheat and steal for a living won’t give proper weight and consideration to the tendency of those who do so to continue to do so, let alone their desire to accelerate their methods of operation.
One would think that once the American people begin to wake up to the extent and breadth of official corruption and manipulation that they would at least be temporarily disabused of seeking additional flights of fantasy. Sadly this is not the case at all. The well worn path many newly awakened minds take is to substitute one form of self delusion with another. A conditioned mind that has been shocked into awareness will immediately begin to seek simple answers that help them rationalize away their own self deception and participation. This tendency will be repeatedly and skillfully exploited by foreign and domestic psyops campaigns. Out of the frying pan and into the fire is an apt description for how it works.
For those who may doubt the veracity of that last paragraph, consider the long and extremely painful path you have walked to get to where you are now in your awakening. How many times have you become demoralized and depressed along the way? How often did you backslide into denial with each new and shocking revelation? How many times did you try to bargain with the truth in order to forget only to fail miserably? How much easier was it for you to adapt to and then accept what you desperately wished to deny because the world remained relatively normal during your acclimation period.
Your awakening happened over a minimum of many months and most likely years and as much as you may have wished you could, it’s impossible to forget once you have been exposed to the previously unthinkable. Now consider what your state of mind would be like if all that you’ve experienced was compressed into a few short months or even several weeks. This is what the average Joe is facing at some point in the future. To have your sense of self identity and community ripped from you by the very people you’ve wanted to believe were your protectors is never easy to deal with under the best of circumstances. The easy road to awareness is behind us and it’s all downhill from here.
So while I can’t answer the title’s question for you I can offer my own opinion as to whether or not Americans will be fired upon. The short answer is that of course they will. Why would you think otherwise when US history offers up dozens of examples to choose from. The powers that be are ego maniacs, the elites have hundreds of years of experience controlling the masses and the masses are mostly living their lives in denial. I consider it inevitable that when the uprisings begin and they turn really ugly that those who are paid to protect the powerful and their assets will follow orders and do precisely that.
Hat Tip to William Banzai7 for the image below.
Once again you can’t see this from your own point of view because you most likely won’t be the one holding the riot gear and facing the screaming mobs. While I’m certain some within the police, military and National Guard will follow their heart and refuse to fire or even follow orders if doing so means hurting their fellow citizens, in effect declaring conscientious objector status, they will for the most part be a small minority and will be quickly weeded out of the ranks by the second or third round of protests.
Considering the insanity the police and troops will be facing as well as the economic collapse that threatens them as well, the police/troops will rally around each other and protect their own closed community using whatever means necessary. Throw in the mercenaries, the agent provocateurs, the psyops campaigns, the meddling from the various intelligence agencies and the only question I have is not if but when and how much.
Someone in the comment section the other day said that since the military is now an all volunteer fighting force, the standard of conduct has been raised and no one in the military would ever fire on their fellow citizens. While I would love to believe this, I see it from a different point of view. Those in the military want(ed) to be in the military, thus they were more likely to buy into military groupthink and its attendant mind control and propaganda. Rest assured that long before any uniformed service person (police or military) is asked to confront their fellow citizens they will be subjected to a barrage of intensive conditioning and will be propagandized to the nth degree.
In my opinion, to believe that the various forces arrayed against the protesting public won’t fire on them is to continue to believe in American exceptionalism and more specifically in the desire of the rich and powerful to finally see the error of their ways and thus immediately cease and desist from further exploitation and pillage. If this is the case, if this is what you believe, then all I can say is that you live in a dream world Neo.
On a more positive note I do think something has changed and it’s still not being recognized for what it is and what it might mean. The interim resolutions in Tunisia and Egypt, while undoubtedly unsettled and tenuous at best, did not result in the massive loss of lives many people and governments thought could and would happen. Libya is playing out how many expected Egypt and Tunisia would, with the powers that be fighting to retain power with modern weapons and no mercy.
My question is this, why didn’t Egypt and Tunisia go up in flames? I have some thoughts on why this is the case and I saw WB7 made mention of this change in one of his posts as well. The people who said no more to the powers that be didn’t show up with broken bottles, rocks and other assorted weapons ready to fight. Instead they just said no in as peaceful a manner as they could and they were saying no to the global Ponzi, not just the local branch. Instead of joining a mindless mob, people were praying, talking, playing music and at times even laughing. This is a dramatic sea change in the herd mentality and one that I hope to examine more closely in the future.
03-01-2011
Cognitive Dissonance
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keep lowering the barre...until you are in the grave.
You just lowered the bar with your spelling, punctuation and syntax.
You can't even spell it! You are going to raise it?
Bar or Barre? Learn the difference before you make an idiot of yourself...but then again...it's too late for that now isn't it?
Webster's defines barre by referring you to bar. Other than names, it also refers to music (as in barre chords) and an apparatus used for ballet training. While it may make some sense that the height of the barre can be adjusted according to capabilities of each person, your reference is highly esoteric and simply impractical for what we are discussing here.
It doesn't matter really but you just had to get all snooty. Your initial comment implied I enjoy lowering the "barre", having it lowered for me or that I wouldn't strive for something better (sorry betterre) if given half the chance. The simple fact that we are here suggests otherwise.
they cant even beat some guys living in caves....they have no idea how to handle guerilla warfare.....how do you think the Redcoats were beaten......the revolutionists didnt follow the rules of war, plus they stuck out like a sore thumb wearing their uniforms, just as the military/cops do.....it would be a bloody mess but the numbers will win out ....simple math
they have no idea how to handle guerilla warfare.
Our military has been first an invading force and then an occupying force for almost a decade now. Securing and providing near martial law conditions in large urban areas is what they've been perfecting in the ME. I think they've seen quite enough guerrilla warfare to kill plenty of me and you. Add in to the mix some anti-depressants, neuroleptics, and whatever pharmacopeia of experimental drugs they've been giving those guys...who the fuck knows what they'll do to us.
indeed, these "missions" will be second nature to the military, particularly when all their needs are met - food, shelter, wages, weapons. . . and drugs.
The American people don't know how to live in caves.
misean
From your comments on this thread thus far you are apparently inept or ill informed in and on many subjects. Perhaps you should go away and inform yourself.
Will there be running water and a bathroom? Because if there isn't I'm staying at the Holiday Inn Express.
"Dramatis Personae" indeed. I've been in the US military--they will forever be the highest quality people I will ever know and amazingly both their character and will to do what's necessary only grows as our country moves to me in the blatantly opposite direction. It causes me no shortage of pain or sorrow to know they are suffering and that now more than ever we need men (and women) of courage and character to "be there for them" not as it has been for the last ten years (when if i can call it the "good times") but now when they are indeed "needed and in need." As much as I do "rage against the machine" and i do--i also have to "temper it" so to speak with the simple belief that "crony capitalism is inefficient" and the market will "correct it." At a certain level i wish i could say i've been wrong about what happens with the modern variant of Victorianism and "economic corrections." In our Constitution we have a separation of "Church and State" in the hope i think we will have at a minimum more conscience--i agree there is no "separation of money and power"--and yet somehow we survived just fine as a nation "having money in New York" and "power in DC" when we had an awful lot of both. Can I blame Wisconsin school teachers for wanting a livlihood as the "free money set" continues to bail out our banks? I cannot begrudge these teachers the right of either them or any other school teacher for that matter to speak out on "this matter." I will say this: if there is any place I find that understands how certain men can annihilate entire nations without firing a shot it is here at ZeroHedge. That's why i read the articles...and your responses.
Cognitive Dissonance, indeed...
In answer to the question, yes.
However, I think they must desperately want to avoid that scenario. There's a reason that governments use non-lethal weapons whenever possible, and it isn't out of concern for human life. When they start shooting at the people, the people start shooting back. And in the U.S. that's a lot of lead whizzing around. You think Vietnam was a quagmire, or Afghanistan, try occupying the U.S. where there are more guns than people, spread out over a continent.
I think an actual armed revolution is more or less impossible, but so is the successful implementation of martial law - not to say they won't try. If it comes to that option or abandoning power, you can rest certain what they'll choose.
Like most crooks, they don't shoot unless you refuse to give them your property.
Isn't that what the government does?? The fact they waste it on the entittled does not lessen their crime.
From my essay.
Out of it all will rise a loose confederations of republics. The lessons learned in the next depression is that companies and countries are much more effective and responsive when limited in size.
The country is completely polarized: one set clamoring for reductions (having fallen victim of the "lawful" theft described above); another set completely unashamed, demanding the status quo and still not cognizant of their real value in the private sector.
Meanwhile, the worst of the worst continue to play their rigged ponzi game without indictments.
It is a hell of a state of affairs when Iceland is the only truly free country, (free of the money changers), and news from AlJazerra or RT is more credible than the state run broadcasting companies.
This would be a good opportunity to get rid of the undesirables.
Don't get me started Mr. Berry.
Fat people?
CD, you love to think and write, but this question doesn't deserve the bandwidth. Of course they will. They always do.
The answer may be a forgone conclusion to you, but the comment section doesn't represent the ZH readership at large. By my estimates 80% of the people who read ZH do not leave comments. They are the silent majority.
And judging by my email where the silent majority do leave their comments and thoughts, many don't agree with the consensus opinion found in the comment section.
The topic is worth discussing, yes some will shoot. So this is a forum to discuss - how to decrease that number and what to do when it happens.
I'd agree, most people don't comment ... back in the old days of radio, we surveyed the audiences a lot and determined only about 10%, at the most, of people listening interacted in any way with the programming, less in larger markets, down to uncer 2%.
Consider the demographics and professional background of the average ZH reader - not exactly representative of the average American. You have finance guys saying "things aren't that bad out there" and "there is no real conspiracy". 43,000,000+ foodstampers without a voice (some would say that's a good thing). And most people that are angry, active in cyberspace, and comment regularly are doing it elsewhere. MY GOD! look at the average comment count at HuffPost.
What's the consensus of the silent majority? That we're not exactly royally fucked - just closer and closer to it as the years go by - with enough time to transfer wealth outside the US? Apres moi, the deluge?
BTW, excellent post, CD. My head snapped back when I saw the title.
So ZH is just one big psyop for the disenfranchised to vent?
Americans are the most heavily armed people in the world, by design. The Second Amendment protects the rights of people to own guns so they can fire back at oppressive government goons.
Evidently you have never been to Switzerland...
Judo. First odds are the guns would be used on each other when people reach their boiling point. We are WAY more likely to shoot each other when tempers flare then anyone else.
Second, there is no need for the troops to invade cities. I could shut down most any city in the US with less with a few thousands troops, a little air power, and a handful of armored vehicles. Blow the trains, water treatment, power plants, and then block the major roads. The cities will turn on each other with no access to food, fuel, or water. They will not be able to escape to "safety" as the armored vehicles are on the roads. A few shot up cars piled up and almost don't need the troops there anymore. Siege is a hell of a thing, the cities would burn themselves out and submit to get the food and water turned back on. Your hunting rifle won't do dick to air power or a Bradley.
Now the above might be unpopular with the international community, but guessing if the US goes the rest of the world will be up to their eyes in trouble and won't care. If they are willing to pull triggers, not much we can do if they are willing top play truly dirty. Now smaller communities there is a chance, but most of us are in easy to block off major towns.
Your 15 round Barreta against a dozen well practiced men with FN-FAL's...yeah...dream on, hero.
LOL
Funny urbanite who thinks a Beretta is a weapon- thats barely even considered a gun where I live.
And you do know that the only people using FAL's anymore are pretty much all civilian, right? And that our military rarely even uses that caliber anymore?
As another here said, a scoped deer rifle is far more dangerous then a poodle shooter,but most people think our military uses high powered rifles- they dont. We have struggled for 10 years against goat herders spraying random fire from AK's; highly skilled men with high powered weapons that can blow through military body armor and have good optics are an entirely different proposition.
Its also worth remembering that there are also alot more former then current military in this country, add that to a large number of skilled civilian shooters and its a very different equation.
Yes, very insightful. Veterans owe no allegiance, and they are usually a whole lot more pissed off than the Active Military, so you have the pissed-off factor to deal with.
Might want to ponder the number of US civvies who own FALs, not to mention the 50 times greater number who own AR-15s or AKM clones.
Or the greater number who owned scoped hunting rifles chambered in rounds far more powerful than the 5.56 poodle shooter. The latter is so weak a round it is illegal to hunt little white tail deer with it in many states, as it probably should be. Now your basic .243 is a hell of lot more powerful than the 5.56 NATO or 7.62 AK round. Beyond those entry level hunting rounds there are a lot of well dialed in 7mm magnum rifles out there. Those will punch through a half inch of steel and are plently deadly at long ranges. No body armor currently in use will stop most hunting rounds widely distributed amongst the US population.
You don't go to a fight with your pistol, numbnutz. When you find yourself in a fight you use your pistol to fight your way back to wherever you stupidly left your primary weapon. Lots of high power rifles and skills amonst the populace over here. Body armor doesnt do shit against most hunting rounds.
15 round Barreta? That's for girls.
Of course we would be fired upon.
Once the financial elites are threatened, we'd quickly find out what censorship of the internet, the Patriot Act, drones, and precision guided bombs are all about.
First, we would be told to disperse and go home. If we didn't comply, we would be labeled as terrorists and lawbreakers. Then we would be arrested and any resistance at all would bring bullets.
Then the leaders of the resistancewould be arrested or killed.
How many Americans would be killed before the military finally stops is anyone's guess. Other nations know American brutality. Our own citizens will experience it firsthand someday.
Then the leaders of the resistancewould be arrested or killed.
Then the leaders of the resistance would be arrested and killed.
There - fixed it for ya'
The question is, are a sufficient number of Americans not so utterly spoiled that they would fail to react as the guerrilla fighters in Vietnam? Not even the US military can deal with an armed population practicing unconventional techniques on their own soil (with their moles inside the military no less). The question is, are Americans genetically identical to chickens?
Where am I supposed to learn and practice these unconventional techniques that you speak of? The internet? Is there a seminar? Do they advertise on commercials during the Glenn Beck show...the one after the G Gordon Liddy, Goldline commercial?
We are fucked. Armed and fucked.
http://www.trackerschool.com/
Wolverines!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoM6IFiyRjE
A way to re-phrase your question:
Would we fire on them?
Answer: Yes, of course.
the good news: their knowing enough folks *would* shoot, might prevent any shots entirely. a generalized conservative principle if i've ever heard one.
cheers dcrb
That's THE reason for the second amendment.
An armed society is a POLITE society.
OUCH!
After a month or two in Iraq or Afgahnistan its not about democracy or some other lofty principle, it's about protecting your brothers in arms. The same thing can easily happen here. If protests get violent enough (or are perceived to be violent enough) to threaten the "peacekeepers" they will protect each other which will mean shooting protestors.
TL;DR ... re: headline ... not unless they wanted to die.
The big question isn't "Will Americans troops and cops shoot innocent Americans", because the answer is "Sure, they already do".
No, the question is, "Will some of those American troops [and cops] shoot the aggressor troops/cops down as they should". That would stop most potential aggressors in their tracks.
That is the only positive possibility, other than endless hordes of an openly armed and royally pissed-off population. That's what we really need.
Great post CD. I am in your camp. Someone will fire on Americans. It is easier to believe that, as is the case in Lybia, a mercenary from the outside will fire on the American people (in our case a hired gun from Xe) than a member of the U.S. military. At the end of the day, most of the army in Lybia is giving up and joining the rebels regardless of the financial incentives Gaddaffi is offering. The same thing will happen here. But I agree with you-it will happen.