The EPA Steps In To Regulate Greenhouse Gases In Case Of Cap And Trade Failure

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Tue, 12/08/2009 - 01:07 | 156207 Michael
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Glenn Beck Climategate Warning CG Slaughtered Polar Bears Part 1 12-07-09

Glenn Beck Climategate Part 2 12-07-09


Tue, 12/08/2009 - 01:09 | 156210 Michael
Michael's picture

Bret Baier Climategate on CO2 Regulation 12-07-09

Bret Baier Best Climategate Discussion 12-07-09

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 01:29 | 156220 SilverIsKing
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This shit has gotten so ridiculous.  All of a sudden, the EPA comes up with this crap.  Well everyone, it's time to stop exhaling cause it'll kill ya.  Just hold your breath, you'll be fine.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 01:29 | 156221 Apocalypse Now
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Must See, You Won't Be Dissappointed, Real Information, Shocking:

Amazing, I promise!

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 02:54 | 156262 ghostfaceinvestah
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And just in case you didn't watch this yet.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 03:26 | 156272 Slewburger
Slewburger's picture


I knew that guy was sharp, but I had no idea he was that awesome.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 03:23 | 156278 Apocalypse Now
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I saw Obama's head of the EPA on the Daily Show and she said that they weren't going to regulate your exhaling breath...yet (to chuckles, nervous laughter).  They might as well regulate water and call it a dangerous substance.  This administration is losing  credibility, it's dangerous to lie to the american public, just tell us the truth about peak cheap oil, mercury pollution, and our foreign war policy position to defend oil imports.  Do not sacrifice any sovereignty over fake global warming and enrich oligarch bankers.

I think a reference to the Police song "Every Breath You Take" is apt for the coming Police state:

Every breath you take and every move you make
Every bond you break
Every step you take, I'll be watching you
Every single day and every word you say
Every game you play
Every night you stay, I'll be watching you
Oh can't you see you belong to me?

Your breath generates CO2, your freedom of movement generates CO2, CO2 is generated by the breaking of molecular bonds.  The police state wants to track it all, they'll be watching you and they want to own you.

If you watch the video link I posted, and you are a sentient being, I guarantee you will know the truth.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 12:09 | 156497 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

"They might as well regulate water and call it a dangerous substance."

meanwhile in the real world, water is a dangerous substance for millions of americans:

of course, there are already laws on the books to stop this from occurring, IF there was enforcement that is.  and of course, the agency who is in charge of enforcement is the EPA.

SEC, EPA -- see a pattern here?


Tue, 12/08/2009 - 09:14 | 156352 -273
-273's picture

Brilliant. Almost brought a tear to my eye. Not shocking because I already knew most of it through my own research, but eloquently spoken, with humour, intelligence and honesty. Thanks for sharing.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 15:13 | 156805 Apocalypse Now
Apocalypse Now's picture

I had the exact same reaction - please distribute this far and wide, this settles the science once and for all.

The AGW pushers are trying to silence him and would not let him debate Al Gore.  This is the most important speech for freedom today.  After listening to him, there is no doubt.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 13:27 | 156637 Missing_Link
Missing_Link's picture

Thanks for the link, Apocalypse.  This is a great video; any doubts I still had about global warming being a fraud after "Climategate" are now GONE.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 15:17 | 156810 Apocalypse Now
Apocalypse Now's picture

Great Missing Link - Please distribute far and wide to anyone that will listen.

Most of the debate these days are people trying to shout over other people or stating the science is settled and refusing any scientific discussion.

This video does what thousands of hours of shouting can not do, it provides truth.  Warm, shining, delicious truth.  For those that haven't seen this, you won't believe what he says at the end, what this is really about!

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 17:03 | 156976 harveywalbinger
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Thanks for posting the Lord Christopher Monckton lecture.  Awesome stuff.  

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 18:45 | 157121 Winisk
Winisk's picture

This guy has some credibility issues.  Take him with a grain of salt.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 01:30 | 156222 faustian bargain
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Audit the EPA.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 11:14 | 156498 WaterWings
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And then End it.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 16:10 | 156889 Hephasteus
Hephasteus's picture

Wrap them up in bubble wrap.

Then roll them down a rocky mountain.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 01:38 | 156224 Assetman
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Better kill all the cows... or at least invent bovine anti-fart pills.  Can't have too much methane messing things up, you know.

What a bunch of maroons.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 02:00 | 156238 Michael
Michael's picture


If all this madness is too much for anyone to bear and you are wondering how did we ever get to this ridiculous point then I highly recommend this documentary, which explains the origin of idioting and how idiots have played a vital role in society for centuries. While many idiots are self taught, this documentary confirms that they have been formally teaching idiocy at the University of East Anglia since at least the 70’s (when the documentary was made).

If you listen at 2:42 you can hear the narrator say,

“Mr Phil Jones is no ordinary idiot. He is a lecturer in idiocy at? the University of East Anglia. After 3 years of study.. these apprentice idiots receive a diploma of idiocy, a handful of mud and a kick on the face.” "

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 02:06 | 156241 Fish Gone Bad
Fish Gone Bad's picture

Anyone read the only non-quoted Michael Crichton book, State of Fear?  This topic was covered quite well.  Keep everyone afraid, keep everyone very very afraid.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 02:22 | 156247 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Dear EPA: Fuck you. Come and get me...

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 02:33 | 156250 tom a taxpayer
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In Section III F (beginning on page 108) of the EPA document, the EPA responds to commenters who raise several excellent points, including that the EPA needs to take a broader view of the public health and welfare, and that the cure is worse than the illness. 

EPA's response is that Congress requires EPA to have a narrow focus, and that EPA cannot examine whether the cure is worse than the illness. 

EPA: EPA's medicine is designed to stop the patient's flatulence. If the medicine kills the patient, that is not EPA's problem. 

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 02:38 | 156253 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Don't be an idiot about science.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 09:34 | 156372 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Gavin "Hansen's Bulldog" Schmidt & Michael "Hockey Stick" Mann? No thanks, pal. Gavin could have released and admitted that the GISS code (that supposedly makes the UEA code immaterial) became a horrible FORTRAN kludge over the years, but chose to also avoid, evade & deny. How does it feel to be a supporter of trashing the FOI Act? You want REAL science? Watts' is a start. You want real statistics where the work is shown? McIntyre's ClimateAudit and Lucia's Blackboard are the definition of transparency. Furthermore, current climatology students are beginning to question the orthodoxy in heartening numbers.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 18:57 | 157141 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture is down for me.
anyone else having problems?

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 02:56 | 156263 ghostfaceinvestah
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AGW is the biggest hoax in human history, hard to believe it could happen in this day and age, but here it is.  The EPA move today was likely due to the fact that cap and trade is dying in Congress, those fools know damn well they will be voted out en masse if they keep up this crap.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 09:27 | 156365 Shameful
Shameful's picture

Hoax's work because your average person is does not think for themselves.  It's shockingly easy to manipulate people if you are confident and present yourself in the right fashion.  Con men of all stripes (politicians and more hard working con men) know that a lot of people will never think for themselves until well after the con has played out.  Hell for an experiment I went and tried to convince random strangers at my university of all kinds of clap trap and many would agree after I had presented my "case".

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 03:01 | 156266 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

meh. not that big of a deal. cars and light-duty trucks have to have 35/MPG. not a horrible idea regardless of GW.

MUCH different than cap 'n tax.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 03:38 | 156284 Froggy
Froggy's picture

I find it disturbing how this Administration consistently makes these bold and inappropriate power grabs whenever they sense that their position vis a vis their ability to convince the American people is threatened.  This move is such a non sequiter in light of recent events at the UEA-CRU. 

At the same time, I find these enviro-nutters to be the most hopelessly self absorbed group of hypocrites on the face of the Earth.  To show up at this Carbonhagen conference in 140 private jets and to use 1200 limousines during the course of the conference and thereby expending in a week the entire CO2 output of Morocco in 2006 is simply too ridiculous to comprehend.  Combine that with a massive snow storm bearing down on the US just as this thing kicks off is absolute proof that God exists and has a tremendous sense of humor.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 03:43 | 156285 faustian bargain
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snow in san francisco. WTF. it's frickin' cold out here in the bay area.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 09:31 | 156370 Shameful
Shameful's picture

While I agree it is shocking the level of in your face crazy this is, it's not that much of a power grab.  Look at the Executive branch, it's been a de facto dictatorship for a while.  The prez can wage wars without a declaration of war, he may pass his own laws via regulating and taxing agencies, and he may interpret law (like hte court) by issuing signing statements, all the while claiming immunity to the judcial branch.  In our banana republic we elect a new dictator every few years and he wears a suit rather than a uniform.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 03:51 | 156287 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Hmm, they left off the most important greenhouse gas, the one that accounts for more than 90% of warming - water vapor. I guess the notion of having the EPA regulate water would have made the hypocrisy of this nonsense just a bit too obvious.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 09:40 | 156379 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

The models still insist that clouds are a positive feedback, hopelessly flawed imo. When you look at the spaghetti graph of modeled outputs against reality it shows what a bunch of "flops" can accomplish. But hey, by all means give them more flops. Bigger GIGO is all the rage, as MBS securitization models can attest. We should call the modelers GIGOlos.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 07:27 | 156319 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I wonder when more emails will be released. Like Acorn, the videos just kept on coming.

I remain hopeful.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 18:15 | 157074 harveywalbinger
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403 error...

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 08:46 | 156336 grunk
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And then, having regulated the earth, sea, and sky, and finding it to be profitable, on the Seventh Day, Lloyd Blankfein rested. 

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 09:46 | 156388 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I just farted...bad. Am I in trouble with Obama and the EPA?

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 09:53 | 156396 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Does this mean we can't perform CPR anymore?

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 09:54 | 156397 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Does this mean we can't perform CPR anymore?

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 10:04 | 156406 Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

This is so wildly and blatantly unconstitutional that I have a hard time believing it is starting.  Yet, it seems to be.  The so-called administration seems to be doing their best to re-create the conditions that lead to the French Revolution.  This is a good time to get as far away from DC and NYC as you can.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 10:46 | 156454 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

If I can maneuver around the beauracracy I will stand to make alot of money in the future. Who would ever have thought being a lowly refrigeration mechanic would have such oppurtunities. You guys better keep those HFC's in your equipment or the EPA is coming for ya, just don't tell anyone about all the greenhouse gases China, India and Mexico spew into the atmosphere.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 11:01 | 156476 Margin Call
Margin Call's picture

Debating policy responses to climate issues is one thing, and I'm all for it. Cap and Trade? Benefits and outcome very debatable. The EPA move? A political one to be sure (although don't see how GS would benefit a la Cap and Trade, since regulation would just require emissions limitations outright which would benefit technology and infrastructure companies, not financial traders).

But pretending that the emails out of the UEA somehow throw into doubt all climate research, well that is really pushing it. I think skeptics are doing their cause a disfavour by going into an orgiastic frenzy that exposes political motives as their driving force beyond any genuine concern for the scientific method.

So climate change science has an element of uncertainty. Big surprise! What science doesn't? But just because we can't be 100% certain of the ultimate impact that we have on our climate doesn't mean we shouldn't be treading very, very carefully. Because the research and modelling point to some serious risks- one of the main ones being that we could be seriously fucking up our ability to thrive as a species on this planet (forget the damn polar bear, but that's a whole other story, don't get me started on modern environmentalism). Taking some short-term economic transition pain now is well worth avoiding the risk of major biosphere disruptions down the road. It's not religious dogma, it's logical risk mitigation.

As a species, we've been engineering and altering our biosphere for millenia now (hint: it started with agriculture, not the industrial revolution). So with a highly industrialized civilization with multiple billions of people, I'm now supposed to believe that GHC emissions are not doing anything to affect our climate system in one way or the other? The argument that climate changes are all "natural" and are not due to human activity is as religiously delusional as climate change activists are claimed to be: human activity is part of nature. Last time I checked, we were still animals living on planet earth. The only difference is that we've developed the self-awareness to at least try to analyze our relationship with our surroundings. Unfortunately, this has also given us a nice God complex that we live above and apart from our own world.

It is possible that climate changes are driven solely by sunspots. It's also very, very possible that recent climate changes are driven largely be human industrial activity. But science can never be 100% certain about either. But that is why, based on the huge body of research carried out, it makes the most sense to try to limit our GHC emissions as a civilization. If climate changes are driven by human industrial activity, then we avoid some serious problems. If climate changes are driven by sunspots or radiation shot at us by some nefarious extra-terrestrials hiding behind the moon, then we are fucked anyways no matter what we do. If we do nothing, then we run the risk of being fucked either way when we don't have to be.

Alright, sorry about the rant. Back to the EPA- I actually think this move points out that the US is planning to meet its GHC reduction targets through transportation (the EPA move came about to allow regulation of vehicle emissions). Reducing oil consumption is an easier political proposition than going to war with the coal lobby.




Tue, 12/08/2009 - 11:07 | 156485 Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

Here is an excellent analysis of the climate emails:

As for this:

Back to the EPA- I actually think this move points out that the US is planning to meet its GHC reduction targets through transportation (the EPA move came about to allow regulation of vehicle emissions). Reducing oil consumption is an easier political proposition than going to war with the coal lobby.

I agree, but it would be a terrible path to follow.  For starters, it would probably be the final nail in the coffin for our auto industry.  I expect it would also be extremely inefficient in terms of the necessary investments (and wasted existing capital) relative to CO2 emissions.  It would be far smarter to clamp down on coal.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 11:19 | 156506 Margin Call
Margin Call's picture

Mad Max,

I completely agree that it isn't the best path to take. Unfortunately, politics is more often about the easy way out than the proper way out. Coal makes the most sense as a clampdown target- even apart from the GHC issue, you are talking about landscape destruction, mercury emissions and slurry spills.

The money going towards carbon capture and storage is one of the most glaring examples of political capture of science/R&D. I think it makes more sense to just let the coal plants run right now and devote all clean coal funding to alternative electricity sources- in the long run this will be more beneficial than blowing half the wad on CCS tech that probably won't work at any reasonable scale for another few decades if at all.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 11:32 | 156524 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

"The money going towards carbon capture and storage is one of the most glaring examples of political capture of science/R&D."

follow the rockafella:

think jay is trying to make up for the mess his great granddaddy made or just trying to get a leg up on the next big skim?

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 12:11 | 156559 Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

No argument here.

Unfortunately, politics is more often about the easy way out than the proper way out.

Yes, indeed.  If the US really wanted to limit carbon emissions, we could simply tax fossil fuels the way that European countries have long taxed petroleum.  It would also help to wean us from imported oil.  The absence of a serious proposal for such a simple and effective approach has made it clear to me that the politicians bandying GHG issues are not sincerely concerned about GHG emissions.

And I am not in the fairly large group saying climate change is a hoax.  There is clear evidence of warming in the polar regions and most mountainous regions.  There is also undeniable evidence that atmospheric levels of CO2 and other GHGs have increased.  The only "puzzle piece" remaining is a proven link between them.  As of right now the link is by far the most convincing theory, but it is not the only plausible theory, and in fact it seems very likely that warming will turn out to be a combination of man-made and natural processes.

Anyway, for anyone who wants climate to correct itself (a misnomer since climate is generally not stable over very long periods of time), keep hoping for a supergigantic volcanic eruption.  (And hope that same eruption is not an extinction level event.)

Hmmm.  Maybe we should force DC to be relocated to the center of the Yellowstone caldera.  And then sit back, wait, and hope.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 12:29 | 156590 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

"Maybe we should force DC to be relocated to the center of the Yellowstone caldera. "

bucky fuller, whereever he is now, is probably thinking the exact same thing.

"Studying the whole thing, you find that all big government, all big politics, all big religion, almost all big business, would find it absolutely devastating to their activity to have humanity a success. "You poor kid, come on down, I'll get you a job at City Hall. Come on down, and I'll give you a turkey dinner; I'll get you into Heaven." So, I began to realize this also in big government tax hungry to take care of all its big bureaucracies. All those in bureaucracy want to have their jobs keep on. Neither government nor big business could see any way of putting meters between you and your energy income, between you and the wind, or between you and the sun. So I find that while it's clearly demonstrable that we really can get on with our energy income, that big government and big business are doing nothing serious about it whatsoever."

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 13:17 | 156629 Don Smith
Don Smith's picture

The thing about CO2 is the supposed causation, as you mention.  Oregon's State Climatologist has stated that he believes that CO2 increases are the result of warming, not the cause.  In other words, like water vapor, CO2 can saturate warmer air better than colder air, so if the air temps go up a net 1-degree fahrenheit, CO2 in the atmosphere will go up accordingly. 

He points out that even in "An Inconvenient Truth," the chart that shows temp versus CO2 shows a lag between increases in CO2 and temperature.  Temps go up, and then 50-100 years later, CO2 shows a rise, not the other way around. 

It has also been posited that once CO2 reaches a certain PPM, its "warming" properties peter out.  Thus, if CO2's insulating effects cap out at 20 PPM, then going from 20 all the way to 50 has neglible impact on warming.  The theroy there is that we're already at that 50, say, and to cut CO2 to the point where it actually has an effect would require something like an 80% cut in CO2, which literally would stone-age us. 

The science is murky at best, and nothing short of an honest, transparent study will settle any arguments.

Tue, 12/08/2009 - 13:26 | 156636 Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

This is very interesting.  Do you have a link, or even any keywords to enter into a search, to find more on this?

I have to say that on the CO2 side it should be straightforward to make a good estimate of how much oil, coal and natural gas has been burned since 1850 and to see how that matches up to the rise in atmospheric CO2 levels.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!