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Eric King Interviews Whistleblower Andrew Maguire And Adrian Douglas Of GATA

Tyler Durden's picture


Recently, whistleblower Andrew Maguire gained substantial notoriety among LBMA circles after disclosing what could be an epic cabal of commodity price manipulation, and was subsequently involved in what could be classified as an attempted hit-and-run. In a first media appearance, Andrew is interviewed in this exclusive with Eric King of King World News, where he is joined by GATA director Adrian Douglas, who also made ripples at the recent CFTC hearing in which he used the words of former Goldman analyst Jeffrey Christian against him in proving that the gold market is nothing but one big Ponzi, in which a run to deliverables would result in 99% unsecured claims (a 1 in 100 dilution).

As Eric King summarizes:

Andrew Maguire, independent metals trader turned whistleblower is in
the center of a storm for exposing what could be the largest fraud in
history involving countries, banks and government leaders. Adrian
Douglas Board of Director from GATA, the man who Andrew reached out to
also joins in this interview where they discuss a fraud so
extraordinary and so unimaginable that it is the kind of thing that
hollywood thrillers are made of. In this interview they also discuss
the CFTC sponsored meeting on metals which was an unmitigated disaster
because it additionally exposed the fraud on a grander scale. Thanks to
GATA, Adrian and everyone else involved in helping to make this
exclusive King World News interview possible.

Click here for the full interview


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Tue, 03/30/2010 - 09:39 | 280385 Cookie
Cookie's picture

One very brief mention in the NY Post is the only coverageof this story in anything that can be considered mainstream media.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 10:02 | 280394 Quintus
Quintus's picture

Listen to the interview.  GATA had arranged a series of interviews with numerous media outlets, but they were all cancelled within 24 hours of the revelation at the CFTC hearing.  The Mainstream media inexplicably ran away from a hot story.  Wonder why?

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 11:03 | 280446 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

As you're pointing out, the mainstream media wants nothing to do with truth tellers or whistle blowers that have hard facts and information. The MSM is in so deep they must keep bailing the shit into the public meme 24/7 or their credibility among the brain dead and deep deniers would be destroyed.

Once you've hung with the gangsters and witnessed (and then covered up) the murders, corruption and theft, you have no choice but to continue. To admit your role would be suicide. You were in for a penny, now you're in for a pound, ton, enchilada, whatever you wish to call it. The expression "full Monty" comes to mind and is extremely apropos in this case.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 11:32 | 280472 carbonmutant
carbonmutant's picture

The MSM is giving new meaning to the term "faux news"

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 13:55 | 280717 Madcow
Madcow's picture

MSM continues to cement their irrelevance -

Just look at the top stories in the NY Times today - 

- "Russia Mourns Attack Victims and Considers Response"

- "US Home Prices Inch Up, but Worries Remain"

- "Deportation Can Follow Low Level Drug Offenses"


All are legitimate news stores. But - compared to rampant political and financial sector corruption and the collapse of Western Civilization - seem like they should be on the back pages. 



Tue, 03/30/2010 - 17:58 | 281023 goldfreak
goldfreak's picture

I so agree with you

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 15:08 | 280816 sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture

And if he's smart, he'll stay outside of the US of A!


Tue, 03/30/2010 - 16:11 | 280888 Apocalypse Now
Apocalypse Now's picture

A few perspectives:

  • "The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media."----William Colby, former CIA director  (Newscasters, Producers, etc)
  • Think about the trillions in derivatives.  I would guess that the other side of the double sided accounting entry on the precious metals short positions wind up in that ridiculous figure - the 100's of trillions.  Think back to the prior post outlining the discussion of Greenspan and accounting discussion regarding gold in the basement and the recognition of imports/exports.  I would assume they don't want the fed audited because the accounting makes no sense - a giant unlimited pool of digits for managing the rise of gold and silver (the fed is tasked with stable prices).
  • The interviews were most likely cancelled because of the national security implications.  A run on gold and silver could crash the prices of other assets as owners of other assets rush to sell them and invest in precious metals.
  • It is a fraud, insiders profit from their own price direction including pump and dump, but it may be authorized by government.
  • The ex-Goldmanite tripped up and stated it is levered up 100 X and is a paper ledger transaction.
  • Which countries on the list of potential enemies have large pools of resources like gold and oil?  That could be a source of gold to cover the contracts, especially if these are the same countries trying to buy up gold - pressuring the dollar.
  • Nobody wants to have to lug pounds of gold around to stores or eat it, gold is real wealth, fiat is a transaction currency.  If government would operate with a balanced budget, maintain an increase in money supply consistent with population growth, and back their currency with reserves, there would be much less interest in precious metals.
Wed, 03/31/2010 - 01:51 | 281392 ED
ED's picture

Who needs to lug gold around to use it as money? As long as you have reserves you can believe in it can be spent digitally/paper etc

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 10:11 | 280399 Cookie
Cookie's picture

Thks for this, have not heard the interview yet, have baby sleeping nearby and have to mute sound. Explains a lot.

I have a lot of media contacts and have been pushing this story, nil response. Scary.



Tue, 03/30/2010 - 10:18 | 280403 ZackAttack
ZackAttack's picture

COMEX will do what it has to in order to protect itself.

To screw the Hunt brothers oh so long ago, it changed the rules to disallow taking physical delivery. There's no reason to believe it'd use half-measures this time.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 10:20 | 280406 svendthrift
svendthrift's picture

King World News is outstanding. I do hope they are able to get Markopolos involved. He has mainstream (ugh) credibility.


Thanks for the link to this Tyler. It needs to be widely disseminated.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 11:37 | 280480 oddsman
oddsman's picture

I hope they get Markopolos, too. But considering the murder attempt -- if that's what it was -- I think the media SHOULD be interested even without him. It's not the bias that surprises me so much in this case, as I'm used to bias. It's the concerted nature of the Bill Murphy blackout...

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 10:23 | 280408 nedwardkelly
nedwardkelly's picture

When I glanced at this headline I thought it said "..of GTA", which I thought was some weird connection to the fact the guy was hit by a car.

Too much time playing video games...

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 10:27 | 280411 HEHEHE
HEHEHE's picture

So if you can't get physical it's best to own miner's stocks rather than GLD etc?

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 10:43 | 280420 Stuart
Stuart's picture

The COMEX (Crimex) will now settle contracts with shares of GLD as of a few years ago.   Unbelievably corrupt, beyond words.  Can you imagine a customer long oil contracts being given shares of an oil ETF instead of actual oil which was sought..   Neither can I. 

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 18:00 | 281028 goldfreak
goldfreak's picture

Why can't you get physical?

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 10:40 | 280416 Dicite justitiam
Dicite justitiam's picture

Please help me get perspective. I think as members of the ZH community we have a tendency toward myopia (maybe it's just me).

First, is the Maguire story truly newsworthy in the sense that it would sell copy to a wide audience? If it was front page WSJ would it move copy?

Second, is there a sound legal reason to prevent a WSJ level medium from presenting the story?

Third, if the story is newsworthy and there are no practical barriers to publication, should we conclude MSM is asleep at the wheel or constrained by fear of retribution?

These are questions aimed at a more absolute understanding of MSM function (not answers nor opinions). I am familiar with the Fox/Monsanto case, and that episode informs me. I seek greater understanding.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 10:57 | 280435 Anton LaVey
Anton LaVey's picture

1) Wide audience? Perhaps not, but any investor worth its salt keeps an eye on the commodities, including precious metals - and, in terms of commodities, this story is HUGE. It's blantant market manipulation and just plain scamming investors by manipulating prices.

2) Sound legal reason? No. But it needs to be fact-checked. You can bet anything that is not properly fact-checked will be sued to heck and back by JP Morgan's legal team.

3) I think no one - in the MSM - wants to fact-check this. "Asleep at the wheel" is a better description, as I don't subscribe to paranoid conspiracy theories. But

Please remember that, pretty much everywhere you look, investing in commodities is a tiny minority of investors. And investing in precious metals is a tiny minority of that tiny minority. Where I live, buying gold and silver is considered as an old man's game, not something for serious investors.

Essentially, I bet a lot of people at JP Morgan are, right now, holding their breaths and hoping it won't get out in the open like it should.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 12:22 | 280555 Lionhead
Lionhead's picture

"Please remember that, pretty much everywhere you look, investing in commodities is a tiny minority of investors. And investing in precious metals is a tiny minority of that tiny minority. Where I live, buying gold and silver is considered as an old man's game, not something for serious investors."

I strongly disagree with you. Maquire in the interview & others at CFTC hearing disclosed the huge multi trillion dollar trading every year with 100:1 leverage. This myth that you describe is disseminated to investors as a cover to discourage their participation in the PM markets as it allows the members only manipulation to continue.

Remember why gold is manipulated: 1) to maintain confidence in paper fiat currencies; 2) to control interest rates by maintaining the faith in the fiat currency.  This is so obvious, yet no one sees it, hence perpetuating the myth.


Tue, 03/30/2010 - 13:56 | 280718 if
if's picture

I fail to see why trading gold with leverage constitutes manipulation.  In fact none of Maguire's allegations seem to be anything more than the usual antics traders engage in.

Gold is essentially worthless in a modern economy.  Without speculation its value is limited to industrial supply and demand.  Speculators determine a premium based on leasing and speculation but the price is still determined in terms of a fiat currency.  And if the sovereign behind our fiat currency fails demand for an assault rifle and ammunition will far exceed that of gold.

So if anything the price of gold may actually be greatly inflated as a result of speculation.  

Ironically, as reported by the FT (Dispute over curbs on metal futures) the Copper and Brass Fabricators were complaining to the CFTC that speculators were driving up their prices.



Tue, 03/30/2010 - 14:15 | 280746 Dicite justitiam
Dicite justitiam's picture

I fail to see why trading gold with leverage constitutes manipulation.

It does not.  The manipulation was the market maker's 'management' of the price.

In fact none of Maguire's allegations seem to be anything more than the usual antics traders engage in.


Gold is essentially worthless in a modern economy.  Without speculation its value is limited to industrial supply and demand.

The same is true of money.  Did you have a point?

So if anything the price of gold may actually be greatly inflated as a result of speculation. 

Except that without this particular speculation in these markets, by the market makers in short positions, the price would be higher.  Of course your point about transaction frequency imbuing value stands.

Maybe I'm just a sucker, but to me this seems like psyops in the battle of fiat supremacy.  Gold is the enemy of the fiat, and there is untold power behind the fiat.  But this story seems like something that could decimate (is there a word for a 100:1 ruin?  centimate?) the fiat.  All that needs to happen is a mass psychological movement that casts doubt on the ability of the FRN to control the future, and the fiat is finished.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 14:38 | 280772 if
if's picture

A fiat currency has no industrial demand although I guess you could always burn it as fuel.

Admittedly, 100:1 leverage could lead to a short squeeze but I suspect its unlikely because at the end of the day you can't practically buy groceries with a gold brick.  Which implies very few speculators are in a position to take physical delivery of tons of gold.


Tue, 03/30/2010 - 15:19 | 280834 Bam_Man
Bam_Man's picture

"Gold is essentially worthless in a modern economy"

My local jeweler does not agree. I doubt yours does either. 

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 15:39 | 280861 if
if's picture

I think that qualifies as industrial albeit decorative use.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 17:56 | 281020 dumpster
dumpster's picture

please the hyperbole,, a gold brick,,, how about a oz coin shopped on the way to the store ...for the fiat now worth ten cents ,, the gold worth 1000, or an oz of silver ,, worth just a few years ago 4 bucks ,, now 17,00  and your buck worth-less ,, than a few years ago.

some years ago the two bucks bought a gallon of gas ,, now almost 2/3 of a gal  an oz of silver a few years a go would buy two gallons of gas,, now 6..

sounds to me like the silver has trumped your gas bag,,

ditto gold .. 


the speculatorws who take tons of gold  are trying to preserve the buying power of a life time of work

i think the young uns are flat broke ,, may be a 20 grand or two ,, .but that is pocket change for the coming years ,

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 18:14 | 281049 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

A gold brick may not buy groceries. WTF! Not this disingenuous shit again? You're right!! No, it won't. That much we know already. It will be too expensive for mere fruit and veg. It will however, buy your house, car, wife and kids, a hotel, and your subservience, if that is the holder's bent. All it take is a bit of extrapolation. Additionally, how is a short squeeze eliminated because you can't buy groceries with gold? Once again ... WTF!?

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 19:54 | 281143 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture


Before you get upset with a poster, click on the ID and look to see how long the person has been registered with ZH and then look at some of the person's past posts. This person has been with ZH less than 5 days.

Nuff said. It's a disinformation op and of course he/she will deny it. I've gotten to the point I won't even bother to respond to someone unless they have been here for at least a month and have a hundred posts I can review. It's about veracity. This person has none.

Don't take the bait.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 22:01 | 281269 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Cheers CD. Fucking wankers.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 16:31 | 280925 Johnny Dangereaux
Johnny Dangereaux's picture

Greatly inflated compared to Silver....that's about it.......

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 14:00 | 280724 Dicite justitiam
Dicite justitiam's picture

I apologize for calling the ZH community myopic if that's what caused the junk flags, but I don't think anyone would disagree that there is a certain selection bias inherent in the communal information flow.  My weakness is that I'm a skeptic's skeptic, always wallowing in cognitive dissonance, and must attack the position I take (that this is a story could shake the foundation of our commercial society) in order to fortify it.  I want to fortify my position as to draw a more wide interest among peers in knowing the truth.  If you don't like it, kiss my ass. =]

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 16:15 | 280904 Gold...Bitches
Gold...Bitches's picture

First, is the Maguire story truly newsworthy in the sense that it would sell copy to a wide audience?

This has absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with a determination of whether its newsworthy.  Whether it will make enough papers move to make a profit on the cost of the days business is another discussion.

Of course, Ive never been in the newsbusiness, so maybe that is how they determine newsworthyness (# copies moved).  However, if it is, that just about says all you need to know.  If they put Britney Spears on it and a title of 'no panties' and it sells 3,000,000 copies it still aint news.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 18:56 | 281085 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Myopia, it's not just you DJ. The master baiter on this site, as well as 99% of the world's population, steeped in Keynesian dogma and government fiat, have yet to learn the difference between currency and money.

Aristotle's gave logical reasons for the establishment of a redeemable currency. The story remains the same to this date.

Aristotle's contention was: What the currency was redeemable for was crucial. What the currency was, was irrelevant. It could be salt, shells, sticks, paper or cow patties for that matter. (Save them if you like.) As long as the currency (credit note) had RESERVES of redeemable money, the system was honest and would work. Without the RESERVES the credit note holds no value. It is irredeemable. You won't get anything from the vault when you trade it in. In this case you will get 100 x 0. They have encumbered the reserves of their holdings (someone's savings) to 100 times the actual amount stored for redemption. Money x1. Currency x 100. May as well try buying fruit and veg with a cow pat.

By no small coincidence, you have only had the currency side of finance drilled into you. You weren't allowed to be given and haven't had the lesson in "money" delivered .... yet. Currency is for transactions, money is for savings of excess earnings.

Are you saving currency or money? Protecting the purchasing power of your saved currency requires gambling. (Good luck with that.) Protecting the purchasing power of you money merely requires a vault or cookie jar. (No luck needed at all unless it is held at the LMBA, GLD etc.)

Newsworthy enough for you yet?

PRECIOUS. Look it up.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 10:38 | 280417 Segestan
Segestan's picture

These are brave people. But like the old saying goes' No good deed ever goes without being properly punished'. We will see.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 10:53 | 280429 Stuart
Stuart's picture

Think of Markopolous and the SEC.  How long did he try to convince them of Bernie Madoff..and what has since become of it.   Besides Madoff, anyone else convicted?   Regulators value the preservation of the system above all other concerns, no matter how broken it is.   This is no different.   They just want this story to go away and would be perfectly satisfied if it did with no systemic cleanup ever undertaken.   Status quo until people start to be found face down in ditches.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 10:56 | 280433 xPat
xPat's picture

Eric King is one of the most professional interviewers in the financial community, and is a real asset to the profession.

That said, he needs to fire his idiot webmaster immediately. As per normal, I can't get the interview and am lost in a world of 500 Server errors. The same retard webmaster is responsible for the decision to not publish Eric's interviews on iTunes because he couldn't figure it out.

World class interviewer, low class webmaster. ERIC KING: Are you listening?


Tue, 03/30/2010 - 12:58 | 280613 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

I agree 100%

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 11:02 | 280444 RagnarDanneskjold
RagnarDanneskjold's picture

He lost credibility with me when he talked about silver falling in 2008. The decline was in line with other commodities...and almost every other financial asset. 


Thu, 04/01/2010 - 18:08 | 280450 wyosteven
wyosteven's picture

** Edited for Content **

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 11:24 | 280465 rich_maverick
rich_maverick's picture

What people fail to realize is that as a consequence of this news coming out, many Asian investors (who don't give a crap if they take down the UK and US economy), are going to try to squeeze the "mother of all shorts" in the gold and silver markets by demanding physical delivery.  All they need is confirmation that this leverage is real.  If the delivery size is sufficient enough, even with a delivery of SLV or GLD, they can press and demand delivery of their LBMA gold.  Can you imagine a Chinese billionaire demanding $10 billion in silver or gold from LMBA for delivery?  The metal simply does not exist!

Madoff was chump change compared to this fraud!  Time to get your 24k gold coins when you still can!


Tue, 03/30/2010 - 11:30 | 280471 Bob
Bob's picture

Good point.  That would quickly put au shorts between a rock and not a hard place, but a cliff.  Not to mention the snowballing chaos in ETF's, etc. 

Guess we should be finding out soon.  The strategy seems compelling.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 11:38 | 280483 tmosley
tmosley's picture

There is a severe disincentive against that, as when they pay, then demand delivery, the bank will default, and they will never see their money again.  It is better for them to simply buy bullion for immediate delivery, and let the bullion warehouses struggle with getting delivery from the futures markets.

The only way that would work is if the "billionaire" had already purchased 9 billion dollars worth from the physical market and taken delivery, then he could spend another billion to break the COMEX, and send the price of his investment soaring.  In reality, such a move would be coordinated between all the big boys in China, and likely include the central bank.  I'd bet dollars to dimes that if anyone is planning such a move, it will be the Chinese central bank that does it.  They are the only ones that have the clout to demand delivery of physical, and can't be easily stopped.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 11:57 | 280519 Quintus
Quintus's picture

A variation of 'Operation Grand Slam' then. 



Tue, 03/30/2010 - 12:43 | 280578 Lionhead
Lionhead's picture

Yes, when the squeeze finally comes, it will start in the Asian markets overnite while we are asleep only to awaken to the price spike. Now, what will be interesting is the Friday jobs report that will be released when the markets are closed. Will the LBMA club work it's magic when the play book is now exposed to everyone that has an interest in PM's? Will their suppression become even more desperate & direct now if investors are forming pools to begin the squeeze?

USD paperbugs may be caught out blindsided someday as the scam slowly gains exposure when investors who have an agenda to break it & profit exponentially, including Maquire. Who better to direct the pool operators to implement their plan than an ex member of the club. If I were a gold operator in Dubai, Mr. Maguire would immediately have a job offer from me. Hence the physical attack last weekend against him & his family.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 11:35 | 280479 carbonmutant
carbonmutant's picture

 The next big story will be, "how many of the repositories are blocking independent audits?"

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 13:01 | 280622 Johnny Dangereaux
Johnny Dangereaux's picture

They really don't have to "block" anything....

Go to 

and read his take on the GLD/SLV prospectus' says right in there they AREN"T obligated to audit...the subs and the subs of subs....ponzi ponzi ponzi!!

Please China-- take frikikin derivery!!

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 13:32 | 280679 carbonmutant
carbonmutant's picture

Actually I'm expecting public pressure to audit LBMA and the IMF since they're paying a 25% premium to avoid delivery.

PS. You've got an extra space in your link

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 14:06 | 280735 Johnny Dangereaux
Johnny Dangereaux's picture

Sorry 'bout the link...check that guy out...he's a lawyer and very knowledgable--in my opinion.

You have a link to the 25% premium story?


Tue, 03/30/2010 - 19:56 | 281146 carbonmutant
carbonmutant's picture

"Reports arrived privately cite the LBMA officials offering 25% more than contract value if high volume gold futures contracts are settled in cash. Two different central banks are scrambling to locate gold for the contracts, but much of it is substandard bullion with under 90% purity."


Tue, 03/30/2010 - 11:52 | 280512 Híppos Purrós
Híppos Purrós's picture

On reflection, this may be more apropos...

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 14:10 | 280739 Johnny Dangereaux
Johnny Dangereaux's picture

I love Bridget! Thanks for that.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 12:00 | 280525 Womb Service
Womb Service's picture

Bates, where are you? Please weigh in with your "opinion".

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 12:09 | 280538 bbbilly1326
bbbilly1326's picture



Master Bates is likely otherwise.......uh.......occupied......  :~)

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 13:04 | 280628 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

Bates is pulling his, uh, his..his hair, yeah, he's pulling his hair out.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 12:09 | 280537 brushfire
brushfire's picture


I've presented this story to a Hollywood producer friend who is very interested in Andrew's story. He's done some huge films and has the connections and clout to really make some waves. We are contacting Andrew to see if this story can go the distance. In the meantime keep this stuff coming-the lack of MSM coverage is remarkable, but this story will be told one way or another.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 12:27 | 280561 Bob
Bob's picture

Good to hear.  A serious update of Wall Street is long overdue. 


Tue, 03/30/2010 - 12:29 | 280563 Rick64
Rick64's picture

Keep the momentum going we can't afford to let this story get buried.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 13:33 | 280677 dumpster
dumpster's picture

their is no manipulation ... LOL

says the 29 year old unemployed.

if there were why has gold up from 300 to 1100.  well lets talk fact  .. manipulation is not about price..

it is about concentrated shorts who overwhelm the true discovery process,

matters not what the price was 6 years ago,

so little brain power packed in a zit faced kid  . thinking he is mr market himself .

when the giants of the market with real experience in the hows and whys of the market place .. are overruled from the bunker in the lap top mentality and scoffs at the emperical evidence posted here on zero hedge



Tue, 03/30/2010 - 14:12 | 280740 if
if's picture

So you're saying its the evil "shorts" again.  Uh huh.

Ignoring speculation and leasing I can't think of any reason why gold should be any more valuable than is required by its industrial uses in a modern economy.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 14:37 | 280771 dumpster
dumpster's picture

gold is valuable as a hedge against rapid fiat printing ... no counterparty risk

of course with a Keynesian mentality and 60 years of brain washing .. i guess the little people will still cry out you cant eat gold lol


maybe read a mises economics text ,,

or you can make stuff up as you go along ...

lets see how gold and silver  do in the years ahead as a fall back to the exploding currency debacle world wide .

when gold is 5000 an oz.. and your dollar buys a half a slice of bread .. you may rethink the advice .. but if some one can not spring for the few bucks to buy gold .. then hell why bother just trash gold.

i suspect those with some assets to protect are glad for buying in a 300, 

those who cry the loudest that gold has no value ,, probably have little of value to protect


Tue, 03/30/2010 - 14:42 | 280780 if
if's picture

It has industrial value but most of the premium arises from people like yourself who are speculating.

Why in a modern technology driven economy do you think gold should be worth more than is implied by its industrial uses ?  Again ignoring speculation and leasing.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 14:51 | 280796 dumpster
dumpster's picture

look out at the wonderful technology driven world economy lol

with modern fraud , modern pavlovian brain washing

small zit faced youngsters making noise .

hell where do you reside .. and what is your wonderful insight that trumps the heck out of looking out at black and determining that all is white ///


i do not speculate .. i did my buying at the 300 levels and 4.00 levels

most speculate on the direction of the buck. watch those bonds  soon every rise will be a shorting opportunity ,, as gold goes on the 1650 and interest rates go up.

and the buck falls below the speculated 80 level ,, lol


Tue, 03/30/2010 - 14:41 | 280778 dumpster
dumpster's picture

nothing about evil shorts .. its about concentrated shorts .. naked ..

in concert to drive the price down ..

apparently your head is so far up your ass .. you have not read the empirical and straightforward evidence


once again it is not about honest shorts .. go for it.


and your right you do not think

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 14:47 | 280789 if
if's picture

Yes, I heard that the "shorts" and especially the "naked shorts" are hell bent on suppressing the value of assets held by people who do not have their heads far up their asses.  Its discrimination.  There ought to be a law.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 14:58 | 280802 dumpster
dumpster's picture

well when the tide goes out we shall see who is swimming naked ,

this bravado in the face of immaculate conception in the fiat area is breathtaking


no law against shorting ,, go for it.. Mr wondrous .. it is the illegal concentrated shorts  where one entity holds 30% -40%  of concentrated shorts with 5% backing


of course who would expect someone with out a clue to understand .... as your  parrot answer is shorts shorts ,, lol

sure short away  ,, i have no quarrel with that .


Tue, 03/30/2010 - 22:31 | 281282 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Hey IF, I've got 50 toz of gold to sell you. Just send me the money. I will hold it for you, secure as can be, for 10% below spot. You should be good with that, right?

Wed, 03/31/2010 - 00:09 | 281337 delacroix
delacroix's picture

there was 40 times more silver than gold in 1945. now theres 40 times more gold. we use up silver, faster than it is produced, and yet the historic price  ratio of 16 to 1  has been driven to 64 to 1 this does not seem to make sense to me. it cannot be based on fundamentals, as production is in decline, and costs to produce, have risen.the US mint ran out of silver last year, and this year also. theres not enough silver, for everyone on earth to have 1 oz. they are definitely afraid of the truth, becomming common knowledge, hence free kool-aid, any flavor you want, drink up kiddies, theres plenty more.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 14:46 | 280785 boiow
boiow's picture

wow. this is history in the making

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 15:04 | 280811 dumpster
dumpster's picture

nothing about history in the making  .. of course you probably were some ones gleam .. then

but if your remember the long bond ratcheted up to 14.5  and over night was 21% as gold topped 875.. from a meager 45 years earlier

the interest rate then broke the back of gold .. as s cash went for the long term / and easy money.. slept on the 14% for many years

if we do not learn from history .. then we have a zit faced person to contend with


Tue, 03/30/2010 - 15:12 | 280822 boiow
boiow's picture

i think you will find that the implications of this story are so wide ranging that it has the potential to dwarf any financial scandal for the past 100 years.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 15:29 | 280849 dumpster
dumpster's picture

sure the scandals and fraud is omnipresent .. because of the modern ponzi economic model.   backed by paper . and the Keynesian's mindset of goo.

 many thinking they are crossing the river on the back of a log  yet they look down to see an alligator

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 16:09 | 280893 Dicite justitiam
Dicite justitiam's picture

I could be putting the wrong words into boiow's mouth, but I think the point is that beyond the fraud of profiting from a rigged game and using 100x leverage to fraudulently suck the market clean, is that this particular story could precipitate the most damaging blow to the confidence game of the fiat.

People would ask, "Why is it important for market makers to suppress the price?" (assuming the price is suppressed.  I have not yet reached this point as a personal conviction, but ask you withhold judgment as I am trying to reinforce my gut with more evidence)

"Why is it that I cannot buy gold on this market that purports to sell gold?"

And, "Why do buyers insist on physical possession of gold?"

Leading these people to the conclusion, whether right or not, that controlling the gold confers the ability to operate the confidence game.  Of course, this may not be true, as controlling the world's most powerful military force also buttresses the confidence game, and may prove more important this time around, at least at first.  But should uncertainty of military outcome be a factor, gold would again provide a more certain means of controlling the future than FRN fiat.

Dumpster, hope you see this is just an attempted clarification of boiow's intent and not an unnecessary condescension. 

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 16:47 | 280931 Lionhead
Lionhead's picture

Your questions have been repeatedly answered here on the ZH site. I've already answered your "Why is it important for market makers to suppress the price?"  Dicite justitiam, if you have to ask, you're never gonna know.

" controlling the world's most powerful military force also buttresses the confidence game, and may prove more important this time around, at least at first."  Yes, yes, we've all heard that argument many times about the military might card. Well, then you can explain to me dear Roman citizen why this happened many centuries ago in your era; look familiar?

When you look at it, remember it's a logarithmic scaled chart. Do you remember how your coins in your pocket felt lighter & lighter over time on your way to the forum? Or how the pre-eminent military power at the time slowly crumbled away. Or were you at the coliseum getting your free bread when the Barbarians were at the gate? Time to prepare dear citizen.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 17:37 | 280993 Dicite justitiam
Dicite justitiam's picture

Thank you, citizen.  I do not lack understanding of the importance of controlling money, I lack evidence to form a conviction that, as a skeptic, requires perhaps too high a threshold.  I realize this is my fault.  I'm investigating.

And again, thank you for the interesting reference, I decided to review this paper by Martin Armstrong.  I haven't finished, but a statement to open that goes: "Everything in nature has been discovered to function mathematically conforming to what is called fractal geometry..." is compelling prose, but is false.  Not to get caught up in an aside, but Mandelbrot introduces several examples of natural and synthetic systems that have fractal dimension >1, but to say that "everything is fractal" is a stretch.  I assume this is just a kind of philosophical entree onto grounds where the author has firmer footing, so I will continue.

Flows of gold as happened in any of the Rothschild manipulated wars seemed to influence the outcomes.  Gold flows during WWI were similarly consequential.  I am receptive to the argument that the levers of empire lean on a financial backbone.  I don't understand the mechanics of how gold would be a central instrument in a modern confrontation; oil and crypanalysis seem more important.  For this reason it seems that at least at first the military card (which includes the intelligence component) would suffice to uphold the fiat--at least at first.  You tell me?  cheers

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 18:20 | 281059 dumpster
dumpster's picture

friends and romans give me your ear,

gold is a store of value ,  a 5000 year historical record,

it has been abused ,, clipped , fixed, gibsons paradox. . a opponent of fiat.. it takes away the ability of the kings men to scam even in the computer age .. the buck must be able to be redeem for value , not two tens for a twenty lol

gold is the element that exposes the ponzi..

when nixon scammed the gold standard ,, . it was to fraudulently negate the debt owed to foreign government .. that time will soon be coming to an end as governments will be net buyers of gold above and beyond 1600.. as a necessity for international trade ,

gold will not be their for the average person.  he will seek silver for a protection from the debasement of currencies world wide

the payment for goods must be real,,, and not a process of paper.

as the fiat is printed as the level of paper is expanded gold s a hedge for payment in full must raise to the level of that exposure, the ponzi is in the fiat the bubble not in the gold . it is raising to the level of the greed and worthless nature of the paper ,

confidence does not plant a garden . or produce a loaf of bread .

Wed, 03/31/2010 - 11:17 | 281629 h4rdware
h4rdware's picture

At this point I would be tempted to direct you towards prof. Fekete's articles, where he answers many of these questions and far more besides (with suitable references to history, including the debasement of the Roman currency, where they count).

It will take a good while to get through it all, but it is worthwhile.



Tue, 03/30/2010 - 18:04 | 281039 dumpster
dumpster's picture

no offense taken dicite ,, good conversation going on.

when it takes the armed forces of the usa to uphold the value of the buck  .. that gives real confidence ,,

now where is that common person in china buying an oz of gold ..

the centric view of the fiat mind is based on 60 years of conditioning ,,

cant eat a 20

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 19:52 | 281140 Lionhead
Lionhead's picture

Yes, indeed dumpster, real confidence.... Moreover, add the fact that some of the fiat financiers abroad may turn out to be only fair weather friends. China & the Asians could bust the US with a well timed PM short squeeze. It may be worth their losses in the UST's they hold to do so. It might be far cheaper than waging other forms of warfare.

Paper bugs may have a lot to digest someday, those linen fibers are a bit chewy...

Hail Caesar and farewell!

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 20:01 | 281154 mtguy
mtguy's picture

Guess I'm glad I have my gold/silver coins, guns and ammo,and, don't forget those tobacco seeds (don't smoke myself, but figure the crop could be worth some value if all hell breaks loose- and no, I won't accept your fiat money!)

Can we have a 'do-over', get rid of these crooks and start from scratch?

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 20:17 | 281169 boiow
boiow's picture

"Can we have a 'do-over', get rid of these crooks and start from scratch?"

that my friend is exactly what the world is doing thanks to sites like this. although like most on here i wish it would get a move on. patience is a virtue i suppose. sigh.

Tue, 03/30/2010 - 21:53 | 281263 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Currency has just been devalued 100 fold. It's perception of value remains unchanged. I forsee a a run on the LBMA, COMEX, GLD, SLV and savings banks by the big boys, as they jostle for position. This will be a titanic game of musical chairs. It will be kept quiet whilst the music plays. When it stops, JSP will be left standing, forlorn and chair-less, life savings wiped out. Mugged.

The question to be answered ... what will be his reaction?

Wed, 03/31/2010 - 00:05 | 281333 Uros Slokar
Uros Slokar's picture

ZH should have a devoted page on trolls to forewarn everyone.

Wed, 03/31/2010 - 11:46 | 281676 trichotil
trichotil's picture

please cancel all subscriptions to joo controlled media, thank you.

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