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Eric Sprott: "We Are Now Paying For The Funeral Of Keynesian Theory"

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Fooled by Stimulus, by Eric Sprott and David Franklin

Despite our firm’s history of investing primarily in equities, we’ve spent much of this past year writing about the government debt market. We’ve chosen to focus on government debt because we fear its impact on the equity markets as a whole. Government debt is an intrinsically important part of the financial landscape. It is the bellwether by which we measure risk, and we believe we have entered a new era where traditional "risk-free" assets are undergoing a tremendous shift in quality.

In studying the government debt market, we have inadvertently been led to question the economic theory that most fervently justified recent government spending programs: that of Keynesian economics. The so called "beautiful theory" of Keynesian economics is arguably the most influential economic theory of the 20th Century, shaping the way Western democracies approached the balance between free market capitalism and government initiatives. Like many beautiful theories, however, Keynesianism has ultimately succumbed to the ugly facts. We firmly believe the Keynesian miracle is dead. The stimulus programs are simply not producing their desired results, and the future debt costs associated with funding these programs may cause far greater strife in the future than the problems the stimulus was originally designed to address.

Keynesian economics was born with the publishing of John Maynard Keynes’ "The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money" in February 1936. Keynesian theory advocates a mixed economy, predominantly driven by the private sector, but with significant intervention by government and the public sector. Keynes argued that private sector decisions often lead to inefficient macroeconomic outcomes, and advocated active public sector policy responses to stabilize output according to the business cycle. Keynesian economics served as the primary economic model from its birth to 1973. Although it did lose some influence following the stagflation of the 1970s, the advent of the global financial crisis in 2007 ignited a resurgence in Keynesian thought that resulted in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, TARP, TALF, Cash for Clunkers, Quantitative Easing, etc., all of which have been proven ineffective, ill-advised and whose benefits were surprisingly short-lived.

The economic historian, Niall Ferguson, recently described a 1981 paper by economist Thomas Sargent as the "epitaph for the Keynesian era".1 It may have been the epitaph in academic circles, but the politicians clearly never read it. Almost thirty years later, we now get to experience the fallout from the latest Keynesian stimulus binge, and the results are looking pretty dismal to say the least.

There are a number of studies we have come across that suggest stimulus is the wrong approach. The first is a 2005 Harvard study by Andrew Mountford and Harald Uhlig that discusses the effects of fiscal policy shocks on the underlying economy. Mountford and Uhlig explain that from the mid-1950’s to year 2000, the maximum economic impact of a two percent increase in government spending was an ensuing GDP growth of approximately three percent. A two percent spending increase inevitably requires an increase in taxes. Due to the nature of interest costs, however, the government would have to raise taxes by MORE than two percent in order to pay back the initial borrowing. According to their data, this increase in taxes would generally lead to a seven percent drop in GDP. As they state in their study: "This shows that when government spending is financed contemporaneously that the contractionary effects of the tax increases outweigh the expansionary effects of the increased expenditure after a very short time."2 Stated simply, ‘borrowing to stimulate’ has never worked as planned because the cost of paying back the borrowed funds surpassed the immediate benefits of the stimulus.

In a follow-on study, Harald Uhlig estimated that an approximate $3.40 of output is lost for every dollar spent on stimulus.3 Another study on the same subject by C’ordoba and Kehoe (2009) went so far as to say that, "massive public interventions in the economy to maintain employment and investment during a financial crisis can, if they distort incentives enough, lead to a great depression."4

If the conclusions of these studies are even close to being correct, we are now in quite a predicament – not just in the US, but across the Western world. Remember that the 2007-08 meltdown was only two years ago, and as we highlighted in April 2009 in "The Elephant in the Room", the US government has spent more on stimulus and bailouts, in percentage of GDP terms, than it did in the Gulf War, Operation Iraqi Freedom, the Vietnam War, the Korean War and World War I combined.5 All that spending was justified by the understanding that it would generate sustainable underlying growth. If it turns out that that assumption was wrong, have the governments made a fatal mistake?

Another recently published Harvard study looked at stimulus at a micro-economic level and derived some surprising conclusions. Entitled "Do Powerful Politicians Cause Corporate Downsizing?", the authors compiled 232 occasions over the past 42 years when either a Senator or a Representative was voted into a controlling position over a big-budget congressional committee. Unsurprisingly, the ascendancy of the politicians resulted in extra spending in their respective districts – typically in the form of an extra US$200 million per year in federal funds. The researchers examined the economic effects of this increase in spending and found "strong and widespread evidence of corporate retrenchment in response to government spending shocks." The average firm cut back on capital investment by 15 percent and significantly reduced its R&D spending.

Companies collectively operating in the affected state reduced capital investment by $39 million a year and R&D by $34 million per year. Other consequences included increases in unemployment and declines in sales growth.6,7 Yikes!! That is not the response we’re supposed to get from government spending!

The Canadian government’s experience with Keynesian-style stimulus has been no better. The Fraser Institute reviewed the impact of the Government of Canada’s "Economic Action Plan" and found that "the contributions from government spending and government investment to the improvement in GDP growth are negligible."8 They state that, of the 1.1% increase in economic growth between the second and third quarter of 2009, government consumption and government investment contributed a mere 0.1%. Of the 1% improvement in economic growth between the third and fourth quarter of 2009, government investment and consumption contributed almost nothing. In the end, it was actually net exports that were the largest contributor to Canada’s growth. No Keynesian miracle in this country.

Our own findings compare favourably to the academic studies cited above. We looked at government spending and current dollar GDP increases in our ‘Markets at a Glance’ entitled, "A Busted Formula". Our findings, using decidedly un-econometric techniques, showed similar results, and are presented in Table A below. We looked at current dollar increases in GDP as published by the Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA) and current dollar expenditures and receipts for the US government taken from the Treasury. One current deficit dollar resulted in an increase in current dollar GDP of a mere 10 cents. Again - no miracle Keynesian multiplier here.

If we use the Fed’s own numbers, the impact of debt on GDP is even more dismal. In Chart B below, we present the marginal impact of debt on marginal GDP since 1966 using data from the Federal Reserve. Deficit spending, which has generated smaller and smaller increases in GDP over time, is now generating a negative impact on GDP due to the costs of servicing the debt. The chart suggests we have already entered what PIMCO refers to as the "Keynesian endpoint", where the government can no longer afford to increase debt levels.10 No debt = no stimulus. No stimulus = ???

A more timely epitaph for our Keynesian funeral comes from a recent op-ed piece by Jean-Claude Trichet, President of the European Central Bank, that was published in the Financial Times and entitled "Stimulate No More". In it Trichet states that, "…the standard economic models used to project the impact of fiscal restraint or fiscal stimuli may no longer be reliable."11 He explains that while debt in the euro zone has increased by more than 20 percent in only four years and by 35 to 40 percent over the same time period in the US and Japan, we have very little, if anything, to show for it. We agree. New housing sales are at all time lows, consumer intentions for auto purchases are at multi year lows, the University of Michigan consumer confidence index has turned negative, new jobless claims have started to increase, and the ECRI - a composite of leading indicators - is now forecasting a recession (see Chart C).

Since Keynesian economics is no longer relevant, some are now arguing that tax cuts will save the day. Two of the academic studies we reviewed suggest that tax relief is a much stronger stimulus to the economy than government spending, and under normal circumstances this is probably true. But we are not in a normal economic environment. Even if the tax cuts implemented by George Bush in 2006 are extended by the next Congress, the US will still face the ‘Keynesian Endpoint’. A Government Accountability Office (GAO) report published in January 2010 states the following: "In our Alternative simulation, which assumes expiring tax provisions are extended through 2020 and revenue is held constant at the 40-year historical average; roughly 93 cents of every dollar of federal revenue will be spent on the major entitlement programs and net interest costs by 2020."12 Extending tax cuts won’t solve anything.

In the end, Keynesian stimulus ultimately fooled us all. It roped in the politicians of the richest countries and set them on an unsustainable course of debt issuance. Recent Keynesian stimulus has even managed to fool the sophisticated economic models designed by central banks. The process of accounting for massive government spending ‘confuses’ the models into calculating a recovery trajectory when it doesn’t exist. The Bank of England confirmed this with its announced £3.5 million overhaul of its current model due to its inability to generate accurate inflation and recession forecasts.13

Keynesian stimulus can’t be blamed for all our problems, but it would have been nice if our politicians hadn’t relied on it so blindly. Debt is debt is debt, after all. It doesn’t matter if it’s owed by governments or individuals. It weighs on the institutions that issue too much of it, and the ensuing consequences of paying off the interest costs severely hinders governments’ ability to function properly. It suffices to say that we need a new economic plan – a plan that doesn’t invite governments to print their way out of economic turmoil. Keynesian theory enjoyed a tremendous run, but is now for all intents and purposes dead… and now it’s time to pay for it. Literally.

 


1 Ferguson, Niall (July 19th, 2010) "Today’s Keynesians have learnt nothing". Financial Times. Retrieved on August 10, 2010 from: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/270e1a6c-9334-11df-96d5-00144feab49a.html?ftcamp=rss
For those interested readers "The Ends of Four Big Inflations" by Thomas Sargent can be found at: http://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/WP/WP158.pdf
2 Mountford, Andrew and Uhlig, Harald (July 2005) "What are the Effects of Fiscal Policy Shocks" SFB 649 Discussion Paper Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin. Retrieved on August 10, 2010 from: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.88.592&rep=rep1&type=pdf, pg. 20
3 Boskin, Michael. (July 21, 2010) "Obama’s Economic Fish Stories" The Wall Street Journal. Retrieved on August 10, 2010 from: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703724104575378751776758256.html
4 Uhlig, Harald (May 15, 2009) "Some Fiscal Calculus" Unpublished. Pg 13. Retrieved on August 10, 2010 from: http://www.princeton.edu/economics/seminar-schedule-by-prog/macro-s09/monetary-fiscal-policy-co/schedule/pdfs/uhlig_FiscalCalculus_v2.pdf
5 Sprott Asset Management, Markets at a Glance April 2009. The Elephant in the Room.
6 Reynolds, Neil. (June 9, 2010) "The Hidden cost of Stimulus programs" The Globe and Mail. Retrieved on August 10, 2010 from: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/commentary/neil-reynolds/the-hidden-cost-of-stimulus-programs/article1596810/
7 Cohen, Lauren; Coval, Joshua; Malloy, Christopher. (March 16, 2010) "Do Powerful Politicians Cause Corporate Downsizing?" Unpublished. Retrieved on August 10, 2010 from: http://www.people.hbs.edu/cmalloy/pdffiles/envaloy.pdf
8 Amela Karabegovic, Charles Lammam, Niels Veldhuis (March 23, 2010) "Did Government Stimulus Fuel Economic Growth in Canada? An analysis of Statistics Canada Data" Fraser Institute. Retrieved on August 10, 2010 from: http://www.fraserinstitute.org/publicationdisplay.aspx?id=15912&terms=stimulus
9 We used current-dollar GDP numbers provided by the BEA to determine the marginal impact of deficit spending on GDP. There is no separate data set generated by the BEA, however the number is published in their news releases. It is also worth noting the divergence between reported numbers from the BEA. While the current dollar measurement of GDP decreased by $185.1 billion or 1.3% on 2009, real GDP was widely reported as increasing by 0.1%. This divergence is due to seasonality adjustments in real GDP and the percentage change reported is a blended increase over the 4 quarters in 2009.
10 Goodman, Wes and Reynolds, Garfield (June 8, 2010) "Pimco’s Crescenzi Sees ‘Endpoint’ in Devaluations (Update2)" Bloomberg. Retrieved on August 10, 2010 from: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-06-08/pimco-s-crescenzi-sees-endpoint-in-devaluations-update2-.html
11 Trichet, Jean-Claude. (July 22, 2010) "Stimulate no more – it is now time for all to tighten" Financial Times. Retrieved on August 10, 2010 from: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1b3ae97e-95c6-11df-b5ad-00144feab49a.html
12 United States Government Accountability Office. The Federal Government’s Long-Term Fiscal Outlook January 2010 Update (GAO-10-468SP). Retrieved on August 10, 2010 from: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d10468sp.pdf
13 Aldrick, Philip (August 10, 2010) "Bank of England overhauls forecast model after errors" Telegraph. Retrieved on August 11, 2010 from: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/7935732/Bank-of-England-overhauls-forecast-model-after-errors.html

 

 

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Fri, 08/13/2010 - 15:46 | 520646 ATG
ATG's picture

Four horsemen of the economic apocalypse:

1) Fractional reserve banking

2) Monetarism

3) NeoCons

4) NeoKeynesianism

 

 

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 16:23 | 520748 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Shame you can't fit mercantilism in there somewhere.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 16:26 | 520756 bugs_
bugs_'s picture

China

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 17:24 | 520866 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

Great Britain

Spain

Venice

Rome

Phoenicia

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 18:37 | 521010 Strongbad
Strongbad's picture

Haha good list.  I'd maybe throw Athens or Byzantium in there.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 19:38 | 522050 scratch_and_sniff
scratch_and_sniff's picture

Think your missing a trick there my olde chum.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 16:39 | 520765 B9K9
B9K9's picture
  1. Demographic change - Uneducated, unskilled resource consumers being substituted for high value-added, taxpaying workforce.
  2. (Domestic) resource depletion - USA imports 2/3 of its daily oil consumption, with 1/2 of those imports coming from exchange with hostile countries. (Please note subtlety of last word - which countries are 'hostile' is not specified.)
  3. Off-shoring - Concomitant with demographic change, international conglomerates, which may or may not be domiciled in the US, play out global wage arbitrage while seeking lowest cost providers.
  4. Financial suicide - 65 years in the making (since the end of WWII), compounding principle+interest has caused incremental debt to drop below the magic 1:1 ROI on GDP as diminishing marginal utility has eroded future investment incentives to negative returns.

I know this keeps getting repeated, but we're screwed, blued & tattooed. Not sure why people feel compelled to continue producing these apparently sincere analyses of the failings of certain economic policy decisions. I mean, talk about falling for the diversion; yes, Keynesian theory is simply a cover story.

To paraphrase Voltaire, if Keynes did not exist, it would have been necessary for the power-elite to invent him. The real game has always had one goal - whatever tools, techniques, and tricks periodically became available were simply co-opted & employed to
further their agenda.

I mean, look at that list above - anybody who was even half-awake could tell the roulette wheel was broken. Predicting these outcomes is child's play to anyone paying attention. We were set up to be taken down by making damn sure those who never pay attention had full voting franchise.

I find these reports intensely boring. Talk about barn doors & horses after the fact. My primary focus is to figure out a way to make sure these guys don't get away with their crimes. Hopefully, sufficiently increased public awareness may potentially cut-off their various avenues of escape when the SHTF.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 16:44 | 520793 Geoff-UK
Geoff-UK's picture

Exactly--Austrian policy was right, no elected officials give a shit, only questions are:

1.  If I leave the U.S., where the hell do i go that isn't going to be just as shitty once WW4 starts?

2.  How long do you roast a squirrel before it's edible?

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 16:50 | 520803 centerline
centerline's picture

+1.  The really scary thing here is that I have actually pondered the same questions before.  LOL.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 16:53 | 520816 RobD
RobD's picture

Can't answer number one but squirrel is best cooked slow with lots of fluids like in a crock pot or a stew. Squirrel is also good in a pot pie.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 00:32 | 521318 Perseus son of Zeus
Perseus son of Zeus's picture

Laugh now you squirrely mother f*er. But before long the penultimate Cognitive Enhancement will alter your cynicism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm3PYZ0N7Dg

The soft kill system. You servile android.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 12:23 | 521713 grunion
grunion's picture

Use a pressure cooker, drives out the wild and very tender.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 18:28 | 520979 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Deep fried in oil.   Use the same instructions as for a turkey, down to the minutes per pound of turkey.    Come to think of it, maybe we ought to go head to head with Tyson with a squirrel business, and spin offs like the obvious ducksquirrelen market.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 18:40 | 521016 Strongbad
Strongbad's picture

We make squirrel jerkey in W.Va., Kentucky, etc.  Same as making deer jerkey or anything else.  Also it is greasy so it makes decent gravy. ;) 

I take it you don't do a lot of squirrel hunting in the UK these days, lol.  Maybe soon though!

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 18:49 | 521029 Rusty Shorts
Fri, 08/13/2010 - 20:36 | 521104 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

Good stuff, Rusty. That backyard aquaponics is genius.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 21:16 | 521135 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

 - hey, thanks Strain, ,, check this guy, here's an distilling example...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyseWslMTSA

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 23:59 | 521291 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

We have lots of quail and rabbits around my place.  Both can be taken with a pellet gun or wrist rocket.  Should help us get through year 1 P.C. (post collapse)

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 09:25 | 521347 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

 -

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 01:41 | 521358 Red Neck Repugnicant
Red Neck Repugnicant's picture

All this talk about digging a hole in your backyard, stocking it full of guns, gold, water and dead squirrels... WTF?

You guys are nothing but a bunch of G.I. Joe wantabes.   

Wake up and be a respectable member of society, rather than living in a dirt bunker with the worms and dead squirrels waiting for urban warfare.   

For the love of GOD, get a fucking grip!

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 02:50 | 521362 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

 - yeah, well, i was a g.i. joe grasshopper, back in the day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAPYhaQeB-0

 

trust me, I got a fucking grip.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 08:06 | 521443 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

Rusty, 1/8?

- Ned

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 08:48 | 521469 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

2nd Marine Div, MP Detachment

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 09:24 | 521496 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

I was classmate with CO Weapons Co, taught with the doggie WO running the counter mortar radar, worked with the Recon CO and the MAU SgtMaj.  All gone.

S/F

- Ned

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 10:23 | 521563 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

Those were dark days indeed. I really didn't know anyone from 1/8, the few acquaintances that I did make were all killed.

As fate would have it, half of our MP detachment (including me) received orders to join the 22nd MAU in that other success story, the Grenada invasion.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 22:11 | 522159 ColonelCooper
ColonelCooper's picture

FWIW Gentlemen, given the opportunity I would gladly choke the everloving fuck out of whoever junked your little conversation.

 

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 13:12 | 521771 merehuman
merehuman's picture

Caused memories of Ft Meade Md. I was in a MP unit during 68/69'. Always on alert due to vietnam protesting and civil rights. So us soldiers being on alert constantly, many of us went AWOL in order to see our girlfriends, family or just to get out. Being on alert meant being stuck on base over the weekend so we had a high awol rate.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 02:21 | 521379 akak
akak's picture

Well, I haven't shot and eaten any squirrels (lately), but I have been gathering and eating wild mushrooms (not the hallucinogenic variety, either) --- does that make me respectable or unrespectable in your eyes?

And when I go out picking wild blueberries with friends, are we thereby being rednecky and unrespectable too? 

How about fishing: respectable, or no?  Or does it depend on the species of fish being sought (trout: respectable, bass: unrespectable)?  Does using a motorized boat while fishing damn one as unrespectable perhaps, but leave fly-fishing as respectable?

Is all hunting unrespectable, or just the hunting of wild arboreal rodents?

Is hunting perhaps respectable with a bow, even if it may not be with a rifle?  Does using a hunting dog make wildfowl hunting more or less respectable?

Please give me the guidelines on respectability if you would --- I can be SO clueless in such matters! 

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 02:56 | 521390 akak
akak's picture

Unfortunately, the only psychodelic mushrooms that grow in my region (such as Amanita muscaria) are only sporadically and mildly psychodelic, and their ingestion is invariably accompanied by various severely unpleasant gastrointestinal effects which I am not willing to suffer.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 08:31 | 521454 ColonelCooper
ColonelCooper's picture

Please add whether or not gardening, canning, pickling, freezing etc.. are the activities of a madman also.

Raising your own animals, butchering, sausage making, smoking.... Are they cruel redneck endeavors?

I always thought these things were just what country people did.

***Hey Akak, you have UNfuckingBELIEVABLE wild blueberry crop this year where you live?

Mon, 08/16/2010 - 14:20 | 524292 akak
akak's picture

CC, I haven't gone up into the mountains yet to check, but I am guessing that we don't ---- most of the other wild berries have done miserably in this perpetually cloudy, gloomy, wet so-called "summer" that we've been having.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 12:32 | 521727 grunion
grunion's picture

Yup...And when you show up at my bunker all gaunt with ribs sticking out and hollow eyed, if you don't get shot, I might just feed you. You see, I have a big heart...

Mon, 08/16/2010 - 12:54 | 524037 Geoff-UK
Geoff-UK's picture

A Co, 6-31st Infantry

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 12:28 | 521722 grunion
grunion's picture

I pray sir that is not your contingency plan!

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 20:40 | 521107 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

squirrels=sustainable.

keep away from pork.

eat more squirrel ;-)

- Ned

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 21:36 | 521156 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

I have a special place reserved for you, in my smokehouse.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 23:28 | 521265 lilimarlene1
lilimarlene1's picture

Ugh. Sounds like groundhog stew with dumplings!

 

Interesting sighting today. I live near a huge mall not far from New York, Woodbury Commons. It was absolutely packed, busiest I have seen it in three years. Lots of foreigners as well. Just an observation. 

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 23:58 | 521289 Rusty Shorts
Fri, 08/13/2010 - 18:54 | 521040 Dantzler
Dantzler's picture

Recommend you parboil it first and stay clear of the central nervous system--squirrels can have a prion-based disease similar to mad cow or Creutzfeldt–Jakob.

 

 

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 20:01 | 521082 francismarion
francismarion's picture

Squirrel brains. Mmmmm.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 20:16 | 521091 Ricky Bobby
Ricky Bobby's picture

As to squiral my great uncle used to refer to them as limb kittens, cuase he ate plenty of them. Not for sport but for real live we gotta eat. One shell, one shot and you better hit the target because those shell cost.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 21:15 | 521134 Dantzler
Dantzler's picture

Same goes for my Dad in rural SC in the 50's.

 

Back then he could bring his Savage over/under .22/.410 to school, leave it in the coat closet, and hunt as he walked home.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 21:44 | 521164 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

Americans were once free. Who would believe it today?

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 08:47 | 521466 ColonelCooper
ColonelCooper's picture

I graduated from high school in the mid eighties.  Even then we were allowed to keep guns in our cars.  I always had either a shotgun or rifle with me from mid-September to Mid-November.

Funny how when we used to let kids have exposure and experience with guns there weren't any school shootings.  Now that they're taboo and mysterious, kids are blowing each other away left and right; urban and rural.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 10:33 | 521579 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

 - it's amazing really, what has happened to our country. When I was in school, '70s - early '80s, every swinging dick had a gun rack in his truck, hell, I kept a couple more (guns) behind the seat.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 19:53 | 522068 scratch_and_sniff
scratch_and_sniff's picture

such a mystery.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 12:37 | 521736 grunion
grunion's picture

In the .22 mag/.410 configuration, that is a wonderful survival tool. I carried one for 2 years in central America as my food getter. Never went hungry!!!

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 12:53 | 521755 Red Neck Repugnicant
Red Neck Repugnicant's picture

Personally, I prefer a shopping cart at Albertsons. Sometimes, on Tuesdays, they offer double coupons.  Why eat a dead squirrel, when you can get a 1 pound box of Twizzlers for 99 cents?

I always find what I need, and they've got good prices.  

I never go hungry, either.  Yippee!

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 13:10 | 521769 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Twizzlers. No surprise.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 16:22 | 521934 New_Meat
Sat, 08/14/2010 - 20:58 | 522124 ColonelCooper
ColonelCooper's picture

You know Repugnicant, I know you look at a lot of us with considerable disdain.  Look at it like this:  Have you ever built anything, and what are your hobbies?

I build things for a living.  I get a huge amount of satisfaction when I look at progress, and completion of a job.  I get the same (or similar) feeling when I look at a full freezer.  Or a stacked full pantry.

I grew up on a hobby farm, in the middle of nowhere.  We grew fruits and vegetables, raised meat of all sorts; canned, jellied, pickled, butchered, smoked our own hams, bacon and sausages, picked wild berries and plums, hunted (we ate squirrels, and they're pretty damn good), fished, made wine, etc....  My mom even made our yogurt and cheeses.

I still do almost all of those things.  I didn't always after I moved away from home, but as I got older I got back into it more and more.  I wanted my children to learn what I learned.

When fall is waning, and the hard winter is setting in, it gives me a tremendous amount of satisfaction to look at what our small family did over the year.  We eat healthy, inexpensively, and GOOD.  I don't care if we get a blizzard and the plow doesn't come for three days.  Having a generator isn't a bunker thing; sometimes when the power goes out it takes days to get it back.  That generator keeps our freezers running and we don't miss a beat.

I have guns.  These guns have put hundreds apon hundreds of pounds of meat in the freezer.  Some of them I have now handed down to my son, making it the FIFTH generation.  We still use a cast iron skillet nearly every day that was my grandmothers.  When I got out of the market, I converted to additional acreage, PM's and cash.  If inflation gets out of hand, I would probably TRY to buy more acreage, and more farm equipment.

Do you really see this as bunker?  Not having a grip?  There are a whole bunch of people on this site that know how to cook a squirrel.  Know why?  They're pretty damn tasty.  They didn't learn this in the "Anarchist's Cookbook".  They learned it from their Grandpa.  There are a couple of "Bunker" people here, (you can tell the difference) but mostly it's country people talking about their ACTUAL LIVES.  I think that's why people get so pissed.  We aren't urbanite survivalist wannabe's, we're country people.  Thing is, my life is so different from yours, you can't tell the difference.  So when you go off about how fucking stupid we are (needing a grip), of course we get pissed. 

The biggest difference between you and me is that while we both shop at the grocery store, I really don't need to, and you do.  I just don't spend my spare time playing golf or watching football, or sitting on my ass in general.  I grow things and put them in small jars with salt and garlic.

 

 

 

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 21:30 | 522145 Rebel
Rebel's picture

Well said, Colonel.

I am afraid some simply do not understand the difference between standard of living and quality of life. They won't understand it, until it is too late.

They fear people like you, because the implication of you being right are unfathonable to them. They fear you because you are independent, and not running with the herd.

I fear that it will be too late for them before they finally catch on.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 21:55 | 522152 ColonelCooper
ColonelCooper's picture

The truly ironic thing about it all, is that growing up simply, I wanted SO BADLY to live fancy when I grew up.  So I did. (simplistically put)

What a letdown.  It's kind of amazing how expensive it is to get back to where you started. 

To ANY of you who don't think quite along the lines of Repugnicant, and want to make a family connection:  I cannot highly enough recommend a hand crank ice cream maker.  I will never forget making ice cream when I was a kid; a few years ago I bought another one.  Turn your cell phones off, go sit on the deck, and make ice cream with your kids.  Another moment of Zen.  Promise.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 22:22 | 522167 Rebel
Rebel's picture

Hear you on the hand crank ice cream machine. I did make a compromise and get the kind with the cylinder that goes in the freezer, as the brine water is too hard to get rid of. It is still hand cranked, though, which hopefully will meet with your approval.

I find amusing the vitriol directed towards those who would CHOOSE a simpler lifestyle, or those that have it because that is all they have ever known. Lets say, for the sake of argument, that you are wrong, and that the economy kicks back in gear, innovation leads to new products that improve efficiency, and things start booming again. So what is the downside to you? You live a quiet peaceful life, you help your neighbors, you enjoy your time on the earth. Where is the downside? You have fewer cable channels, and your TV is not 60 inches?

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 22:47 | 522175 ColonelCooper
ColonelCooper's picture

I think you hit the nail on the head.  My life doesn't change much regardless of whether the economy is good or bad.  Things have been pretty damn good for the last decade or so and I got news for ya: You could count the number of times we go out to dinner in a year on our fingers. 

Tip of the day:  Use your stale bread to make bread pudding. http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/paula-deen/the-best-bread-pudding-recipe/index.html

You don't need to make a brandy sauce for it, sprinkle any fresh fruit with sugar, put it on the pudding, and pour just a little cream, (or half and half) on top.  You can make a dessert for four that will last two days for about $.50.

I apologize to the elite on ZH that I have trouble staying cultured.  I will go now before I piss all over somebody's fine carpet. 

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 22:53 | 522177 ColonelCooper
ColonelCooper's picture

Deleted.  Double post.  

Sun, 08/15/2010 - 11:41 | 522407 Dantzler
Dantzler's picture

Nice one, Colonel.

FWIW, I think Repugnicrat is a troll and enjoys stirring up shit.

I wish there were a way to hook up with folks other than anonymously in silico. I know Rebel is in TX, which is a ways from the PNW, but I know we have some representation here.

I'm an urbanite as I need to be near a city to leverage my training. I manage to funnel my extra energy into learning new skills. It would be cool to hang out with some country folk and talk shop.

I enjoy reading the comments here at least.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 00:04 | 521295 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

Tree rats is another popular nickname.  Tastes like chicken dark meat.  Slow cooked in a stew or chile works best for me.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 13:29 | 521788 merehuman
merehuman's picture

Each morning 3/4 big grays come to our deck to the sound of peanuts falling and bouncing noisily. Several bluejays attend as well.  At 89 i let her have her way as it is one of the great joys in her life to feed the critters.

It gets expensive real quick. 6.00 per bag of nuts, one bag every 2 days.

Then theres the birdseed in the giant birdfeeder i made for her and we go truh a lot of sugar for the hummingbirds.

feeding birds and chipmunks causes the rats to come as well and i have caught more than 20. Usually traps, hate poison but did clobber a fat one by sneaking up on it and smacking it with a short 2x2 . Broke the wood, got the rat and made my day. So far the rats have chewed 9 places in the house water supply lines. Fixed repeatedly

I recognize the need for austerity, especially with no income but will let her have her way till she dies. To me, some things are worth more than money .

Oh lest i forget,, bread for the crows and beer for the slugs in the garden.

 

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 15:11 | 521876 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Lucky slugs.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 19:57 | 522073 scratch_and_sniff
scratch_and_sniff's picture

heart warming stuff

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 15:01 | 521871 Irrational Exub...
Irrational Exuberance's picture

If I leave the U.S., where the hell do i go that isn't going to be just as shitty once WW4 starts?

 

SINGAPORE!

 

You may not have the freedom you have in the U.S., but it is a VERY clean, prosporous, and well run country. 

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 16:36 | 521944 carbonmutant
carbonmutant's picture

Actually the original Joy of Cooking provided diagrams on "How to Butcher and cook a Squirrel" http://www.oneforthetable.com/oftt/stories/the-joy-of-cooking-2.html

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 17:00 | 521951 TheGoodDoctor
TheGoodDoctor's picture

I am leaning toward Canadia. My friend said we had to go somewhere where the people loved hockey. I said well, Sweden or Canadia. He wanted to go to Canadia. So, when the SHTF, Canadia it is. I was leaning toward Sweden for the proximity to Europe and of course the hotties. I'm not much for hockey. :)

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 16:44 | 520796 centerline
centerline's picture

The one shining hope is that of technology like the internet and cell phones.  Never before have the masses been connected like this.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 17:30 | 520878 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

maybe not for long?

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 18:30 | 520989 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

One EMP attack and 90% of us would be dead (eaten or starved or dead of deprivation from medicines, comforts, and whatnot) within a year.    EMP means end of of cell phones, regular phones, almost all vehicles, tractors, radios, and duh, computers in existence.   Communication by pony would work where the ponies haven't been eaten.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 18:44 | 521022 Strongbad
Strongbad's picture

My grandparents wouldn't notice.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 20:57 | 521118 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

'pends on the attack, but, yah, blanket attack would shut down internet.  Think about being long ES and not being able to recover.  Gotta consider the number of weapons, coe, timing (warning can shut down vulnerable nodes) etc.  FERC, NERC, etc. looking over this a lot.

Fiber optic backbone would mitigate-FO inter-nodes might survive.  Whole purpose of DARPANET (Pournelle shameless here).  Financially wiped out-yes, I'd bet but that would be all hands and also world wide.

Electronic death right on.  Especially all of the new faster, lower power, modern small distance chips.

But the older and  even modern Western Electric/Lucent switches and buildings have this also as a design requirement.  Other mfgs I'd bet same.  Not the chips, but the system.

so: TBT, I  think that your assessment is on the correct path, but, y'know, you -2x guys are wasting assets, so  even if you are close to correct, you end up as a wasting asset.  My vote is not TBT.

prefix-5 bitchez.

- Ned

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 08:51 | 521472 ColonelCooper
ColonelCooper's picture

What a large scale EMP attack would do to this country is unimaginable.  It is the one sure way to get to Mako-ville.

I don't fret it much, because like large scale nuclear war, (M.A.D.), the only powers that could launch a big enough attack don't want one right back at 'em. 

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 13:11 | 521772 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Or end foodstamps without any rock solid rationing plan. EMP is just the quickest way to go about it.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 12:44 | 521739 grunion
grunion's picture

Yeah but don't you think emp induced breakdowns would be the least of our problems were an event of that magnitude to come about.

Sort of like...If you need more than 3 rounds, you probably have bigger problems than will be solved by 2 more rounds.

 

 

 

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 21:33 | 521152 Fred Hayek
Fred Hayek's picture

Cell phones are largely a blight on the land.  God how I hate them.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 08:53 | 521474 ColonelCooper
ColonelCooper's picture

+ 1.

Mon, 08/16/2010 - 14:27 | 524313 akak
akak's picture

+100

Although I would amend that comment to "Rude and inconsiderate cell phone USERS are a blight upon the land"!

PS: I do own a cell phone, which I keep in my pickup only for emergencies. It was given to me for free, and if it had not been, I would not own one at all.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 16:51 | 520806 Shameful
Shameful's picture

To be honest I'm a lot less concerned about them getting away with their crimes then them riding the beast down fully in control.  If the world must crash and burn that is bad, but would be worse if the oligarchs were still at the helm after the smoke clears.  I want them to be afraid and run off, it means they are not running the show, at least for a while

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 17:11 | 520840 centerline
centerline's picture

+1

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 17:38 | 520892 Francis Dollarhyde
Francis Dollarhyde's picture

This post is scarier than any Friday the 13th movie.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 18:23 | 520970 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

...but would be worse if the oligarchs were still at the helm after the smoke clears.

Hell, man, they've already rammed into the dock and it is in the process of sinking.  How much more damage are we going to allow them to do?  They have already proven themselves unworthy of being at their respective helms.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 18:35 | 521002 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Ummm, nobody is in fact in charge right now.  The "oligarchs" manage to benefit more than others do from the situation, but their control is an illusion.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 21:22 | 521140 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Their control is not illusory as long as they are making (extorting and embezzling) money (our money) hand over fist.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 21:45 | 521166 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

Sing it, Rocky.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 21:55 | 522151 Troy Ounce
Troy Ounce's picture

Post of the month!

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 19:45 | 521073 StarvingLion
StarvingLion's picture

Doesn't securitization get around the problem of item #4?  I think the banks would rather have the fees of securitization and all its cybernetic-like advantages.  Why does it have to be suicide?

4. Financial suicide - 65 years in the making (since the end of WWII), compounding principle+interest

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 07:18 | 521425 Squid-puppets a...
Squid-puppets a-go-go's picture

B9K9 gives some good reason to defend Keynesian economics as it SHOULD be applied

occasional government intervention to support the economy WORKS , so long as you, as the govt, stick to a few basic rules

1) spend to stimulate, but DONT BORROW to stimulate

2) when you spend to stimulate, apply it in ways that are going to come back into your tax coffers. DONT throw money at projects/industries for which the profits haemmorhage overseas

3) DONT believe the bullshit about special niches for a global market. ensure that your nation has a range of industries. protectionism is a tool that retains merit in some (but not all) circumstances

 

Keynesianism works, but you need a relatively closed circuit. Of course its not working NOW coz we've undergone 30 years of wrenching all circuits open

 

Keynes has risen from his grave and wants BRAAAINZZZ

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 07:51 | 521436 tom
tom's picture

1) spend but don't borrow, i guess that means monetizing the deficit? makes no sense to me at all. the point of stimulus is to utilize the money that's seeking safe haven during recession. having the government borrow it makes some sense. having the government drain value from everybody blindly by devaluing the currency to fund extra spending makes no sense. maybe you mean don't borrow anything from abroad, as that just comes right out of international competitiveness - that would make sense.

2) ass backwards. if your chess pieces are sliding off the table, do you think that's because you put them in the wrong place, or because the table is tilted? it's the balance of payments. if you're running a financial account surplus, then you're going to run a current account deficit. government borrowing isn't the only component of the financial account, but it does tend to be decisive.

3) this is in fact US policy even under Republicans despite the free trade propaganda, but I don't see what it has to do with Keynesian economics. You're suggesting Keynesian stimulus should be used to support internationally uncompetitive industries? oh great.

I would agree that in a natural business cycle, using some domestic borrowing to increase spending during recessions can help a bit. But enough countercyclical stimulus is built in to modern government through decline of tax revenues and increase pf benefit payments. That won't die with the death of Keynesian economics.

But we will be studying more in the future the differences between a natural business cycle where such countercyclical stimulus should be sustained, and burst bubbles, where government spending has been inflated by the bubble and thus needs to be cut. That's what we had in 2008 - at least 80% of current deficit spending is trying to sustain government spending at bloated bubble levels after the bubble popped, less than 20% is the Keynesian stimulus added on top of that.

http://keynesianfailure.wordpress.com/

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 12:19 | 521710 grunion
grunion's picture

Spot on B9K9!!! People like you give me a margin of hope for our future.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 14:55 | 521864 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture

Excerpts of the book Critical Path by R. Buckminster Fuller

http://peakenergy.blogspot.com/2009/02/buckminster-fullers-critical-path...

With legal planning of their lawyer-advised banking leaders, the "haves" have now succeeded in cornering all the world's monetary gold as well as the preponderance of the world's petroleum resources - along with their refineries and world-around petro-delivery systems together also with acquisitions of all the atomic power-generating plants, originally paid for by the US taxpayers - and thereafter in severing the monetary system from the wealth system while marking up the negotiable equity value of gold and petroleum tenfold.

They also have contrived their own game of international monetary banking of international balances of trade and credit accounting, greatly aided by the priorly established existence of 150 "sovereign" nations around planet Earth.

That division of world political power into 150 sovereign nations is a consequence of thousands of years of successive and individually independent contriving of history's most powerful leaders. The number-one strategy of the successful leaders of history's successively established supreme socioeconomic control systems has always been to induce the spontaneous self-divisioning of those designed to be conquered and to keep them spontaneously self-dividing and their divisions lethally interarrayed against one another in order to keep them conquered.

The longer the self-divisionings can be self-perpetuating, the more spontaneously are the divisions accepted institutionally by the successive generations as being "natural" divisions ... The prime vulnerabilities of humanity, which make it subject to spontaneous self-dividing, are those of different speech patterns, skin color, religions, social customs, class or caste systems, political preferences and all varieties of individually unique "troubles", suffering and discontent.

The historical consequence of this aeons-ago-commenced employment of this grand strategy of 'divide to conquer and keep divided to keep conquered" accounts for the "natural" acceptance today by world peoples of the seemingly "God-given" existance of 150 sovereign nations of the world and their respective geographical division of all the world's dry land. ...

The plotted curve of the rate of gain for increasing proportions of all humanity being thus swiftly advantaged by the doing more for more people with less and less matter and energy per function - all accomplished with computers, satellites, alloys, etc. - indicates that 100 percent of all humanity will be thus advantaged before 2000 A.D. In less than twenty years (less than one generation) all humanity is scheduled by evolution (not by any world planning body) to become physically more successful and,metaphysically more interestingly occupied than have any humans ever been in all known history-provided that humanity does not commit ignorance-, fear-, and -panic-induced total-species suicide.

Why might they panic? All the present bureaucracies of political governments, great religious organizations, and all big businesses find that physical success for all humanity would be devastating to the perpetuation of their ongoing activities. This is because all of them are founded on the premise of ameliorating individual cases while generally exploiting on behalf of their respective political, religious, or business organizations the condition of nowhere- nearly- enough-life-support-for-all and its resultant great human suffering and discontent.

Reason number two for fear-wrought panic is because all of the 150 nations of our planet are about to be desovereignized by evolution; that is, they are about to become operatively obsolete - about to be given up altogether. There are millions in the U.S.A., for instance, who on discovery that their government was about to become bankrupt and defunct would become activist "patriots," and might get out their guns and start a Nazi movement, seeking dictatorially to reinstate the "good old days." If people in many of the 150 nations succeeded in re-establishing their sovereignties and all the customs-barrier, balance-of-trade shacklings, it would soon be discovered that the 150 nations represent 150 "blood clots" imperiling the free interflowing of the evolution-producing metals and products recirculation as well as of the popular technical know-how disseminating.

http://www.maebrussell.com/Critical%20Path/Critical%20Path%20excerpts%20...

One of my earliest books was Nine Chains to the Moon, written in 1935 and published by Lippincott in July 1938, and now being published by Doubleday. In it I referred so frequently to Finance Capitalism that I developed a contraction of those two words into FINCAP. FINCAP had died a lingering death between 1929 and 1934. In this book, Critical Path, I refer so often to the lawyer-resurrected "capitalism" that it is appropriate to refer henceforth to LAWCAP. LAWCAP's "capitalism" is paradoxically the most highly socialized organization in all history—the citizens of LAWCAP'S welfare-state—the whole body of corporate stockholders—having an annual average dole of $100,000 per capita without their even having to make a pretense of getting a job.

...

 In the meantime as already mentioned the United States has gone completely bankrupt internally, its national indebtedness coming very close to a trillion dollars and its balance of trade debt to $109 billion—worsening at a horrendous rate due to LAWCAP's arranging to force the U.S.A. to obtain almost half its petroleum energy from the Near East. The U.S.A. has for eight years past been unable to meet even the interest on its internal debt as demonstrated by a negative balance of trade. Its future credit has been hypothecated thirty years beyond Armageddon. Nothing to stop the U.S. Treasury from issuing 2050 notes, but for how far into the future can LAWCAP keep selling U.S.A. promissory notes?
    Unless God has something else in mind, it looks as though it will not be long before LAWCAP's kibitzing of the U.S.A. will have lost the $6-trillion killingry poker game. Russia will not hesitate to "call" the U.S.A. hand and rake in the winnings of omniworld, line-of-supply control—maritime, aeronautical, and astronautical.
    In one way the U.S.A. and U.S.S.R. citizens are in much the same socioeconomic position. The Communist party which runs the U.S.S.R. consists of about 1 percent of their total population, while the U.S.A. is controlled by about the same 1 percent, who are the LAWCAP strategists of the great U.S.A. corporations.
    The U.S.A. is not run by its would-be "democratic" government. All the latter can do is try to adjust to the initiatives already taken by LAWCAP's great corporations. Nothing could be more pathetic than the role that has to be played by the President of the United States, whose power is approximately zero. Nevertheless, the news media and most over-thirty-years-of-age U.S.A. citizens carry on as if the president had supreme power. All that he and the Congress can do is adjust to what the "free-enterprise system" has already done. They are riding on the snapping end of the power-structure dragon's tail.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 16:43 | 520794 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

barney frank

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 17:35 | 520885 caconhma
caconhma's picture

Back in 1917, Jewish thugs socialists on American and British money overthrew Russian government. In the next 5 years, these Jewish socialist gangsters (who called themselves Bolsheviks) slaughtered close to 30 millions people through the civil war, deliberately organized famines, and endless repression. They did not give a shit about Russia and terrible suffering of it people but they created the first socialist country in the world.

 

This "socialist experiment" imposed with blood and terror on Russia created a "new Dark Age" resulting in

  • Close to 80 millions people were slaughtered or starved to death
  • Another 200 millions were enslaved
  • Creation of a new feudal ruling elite

Soviet socialist economy was unable to function successfully. Consequently, the ruling elite used more and more terror against its own people and was constantly in a state of endless wars with the rest of world (wars with Poland, Finland, Japan, Romania, Latvia, Estonia, the WWII starting with the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, the Cold war as well as a support for terrorists all around world).

Since Bolshevism socialism became a total irreparable failure, Stalin imposed his brand of socialism (in a meantime slaughtering almost all Bolsheviks and their families). In 1953, Stalin was murdered together with his socialism.

A new and more "humane" socialism was established in the Soviet Union with "regular" bureaucrats became a new ruling elite. It did not worked either. The Soviet Union collapsed in early 1990s.

Chinese socialism, after failing as a communist state, reinvented itself into a "free market" socialism but, in reality, it became a fascist state.

Even the European Union socialist free-market economies are in deep troubles.

As for the USA, it also embraced socialistic principles. These socialist principals did not worked before and now are about to fail here in the USA.

There are certain basic natural processes in any human society. As soon as there is an interference with these natural processes, the adverse consequences follow. The more interferences take place the more troubles and more severe consequent corrections follow. Socialism is not a long term viable alternative to natural free-market economic processes.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 18:02 | 520912 DavidPierre
DavidPierre's picture

And then they needed a "useful idiot'' to get another war ...

Prescott Bush And The Boys Get Old Adolf Started

1923-1942:

George W. Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush, is the Managing Director of the notorious investment bank, Brown Brothers, Harriman, from the 1920s through the 1940s and, like his father Samuel Bush, becomes a devoted lifelong minion of the Harrimans, one of the leading families in the U.S. ruling class.

 In league with Averell W. Harriman and his younger brother, E. Roland Harriman, Bush serves as front man for and facilitates investment in and for a score of Nazi businesses.

Bush, the Harrimans, the Rockefeller family, Standard Oil, the Duponts, the Morgans and the Fords provide funding for the Hitler Project, financing Adolf Hitler's rise to power and the takeover of Germany starting in 1923.

This includes direct funding of the SS (Schutzstaffel or Black Shirts) and the SA (Sturmabteilung, storm troops or Brown Shirts).

The "approved" version of Hitler's rise to power has the German people, economically devastated by the First World War and the destructive terms of the Treaty of Versailles...

 (written by the Dulles brothers, the Morgans and the Warburgs among others)

 ...embracing Hitler as their savior. In fact, it took some 300,000 SS and SA thugs, armed and financed by the Rockefellers, Fords, Bushes, Harrimans, Duponts et al to terrorize the German people into submission to the Nazis.

 These same thugs assassinated more than four hundred German politicians who had the courage to oppose Nazism.

The cash supplied by the American ruling class to the SS and SA is channeled through a variety of German companies by International Telephone and Telegraph (IT&T).

 Virtually all of the weapons used by the SS and SA to terrorize the German people, primarily Thomson sub-machine guns and pistols, are supplied by the Rockefellers' Remington Arms and carried to Germany by the Harriman-controlled Hamburg-Amerika line fronted by George W. Bush's great grandfather, Herbert W. Walker.

The Rockefellers’ Chase Manhattan Bank serves as a major source of finance for the Nazis and, as the Nazis send Jews, Gypsies, socialists and other “sub-humans” to the gas chambers in accordance with the eugenics agenda promulgated by the American ruling class, closes the accounts of its Jewish customers.

Chase continues to serve as banker for the Nazis even after Germany declares war on the U.S.

Joseph Kennedy, multi-millionaire bootlegger, Mafia associate, stock market swindler and founder of the Kennedy political dynasty, is a major contributor of capital to the Nazis via Prescott Bush.

Kennedy is a vocal anti-Semite and pro-Nazi who later becomes U.S. Ambassador to Britain. His pro-Nazi statements do much to mold U.S. public opinion.

German arms maker Krupp is in serious financial difficulty but is saved by a $10 million loan from Hallgarten & Company and Goldman Sachs, two of Wall Street's best known investment firms.

The revitalized Krupp will become one of the largest German sources of cash and armaments for Adolf Hitler and the Nazis.

 The planned re-armament of Germany is able to proceed only after Wall Street's Dillon, Read floats $100 million of German bonds on Wall Street.

In the incestuous world of war, dictatorship, arms dealing and international finance, it is almost inevitable that Dillon, Read partner and eugenics proponent William Draper, who did so much to finance the Nazis, will be appointed economic czar of Germany after its defeat in 1945, thus profiting, in the classic manner of the U.S. ruling class, from both sides of the disaster of World War II.

It's just good business….

 

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 18:06 | 520940 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

DP, references please?

I suspect some confusion since SS and SA were only overlapping, with the natural order of presentation being "SA and SS".  The hummingbird cured that overlap.

- Ned

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 19:01 | 521045 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Everything you need is here in this book, Conjuring Hitler.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 19:39 | 521064 DavidPierre
DavidPierre's picture

Great place to start is with this free e-book.

http://tarpley.net/online-books/george-bush-the-unauthorized-biography/

Chapter 2 – The Hitler Project

In October 1942, ten months after entering World War II, America was preparing its first assault against Nazi military forces. On Oct. 20, 1942, the U.S. government ordered the seizure of Nazi German banking operations in New York City which were being conducted by Prescott Bush, managing partner of Brown Brothers Harriman. 

Under the Trading with the Enemy Act, the government took over the Union Banking Corporation,in which Bush was a director. The U.S. Alien Property Custodian seized Union Banking Corp.’s stock shares, all of which were owned by Prescott Bush, E. Roland “ Bunny ” Harriman, three Nazi executives, and two other associates of Bush.

...........................................................................

{Refences are all footnoted and available in the public record.}

'Their' secrets are all hidden in plane sight for those with 'eyes to see'...

(like the "mysteries" of JFK and 9/11, etc.).

.............................................................................

"hummingbird"...???

 

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 21:00 | 521121 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

The pro-Nazi King of England, Edward VIII, was forced to abdicate ostensibly on the grounds of marrying a divorced woman. Of course the real reason was treason: a conspiratorial relationship with national (Cliveden Set) and international pro-Nazi organizations intent on a takeover of Great Britain with a repeal of Democracy in favor of totalitarian fascism. Reference below.

 "In October 1937, the Duke and Duchess visited Nazi Germany, against the advice of the British government, and met Adolf Hitler at his Obersalzberg retreat. The visit was much publicised by the German media. During the visit the Duke gave full Nazi salutes.[63]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_VIII_of_the_United_Kingdom

Not to be missed: See photos of Edward reviewing SS troops and flirting gleefully with Adolph. 

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 04:03 | 521396 DavidPierre
DavidPierre's picture

Crash of '29-- {or was it 2008?}

A Federal Reserve Production

The Wall Street Crash is the opening act in the Great Depression, the latest production of the boys in the back room who own the private company operating under the deceptive name of the Federal Reserve.

The Federal Reserve was supposedly created to prevent such things as the Wall Street Crash happening. But, from 1921 to 1929, the Fed dramatically increases the U.S. money supply, fueling massive speculation.

Throughout the 1920s, Americans with modest income and savings are lured into the stock market in large numbers by the ruling class including the Rockefellers, the Morgans and the Dillons.

 People who know nothing of the true forces and limitless skullduggery behind financial markets... {HFTs anyone?}...and cannot afford to lose the money they invest are persuaded to pay artificially inflated prices for hundreds of millions of shares.

Suckers are lured into the market with the trick of buying on margin.

A purchaser puts down ten percent of the value of the shares being bought and then counts on the continuing inflation of share prices to make a profit.

It's like getting something for nothing.

With millions of suckers lured into the market, share prices are driven up and, for a while, Jim Q.[uinn] Sucker, looks like coming he's out ahead.

However, that is not the nature of the financial world.

In fact, the Rockefellers, the Morgans, the Dillons and their minions are fleecing ordinary Americans of hundreds of millions of dollars in an orgy of financial scams many of which will be later uncovered in the long-suppressed

Pecora Hearings...

Massive manipulation and speculation drives share prices to unsupportable levels.

A few months before the Crash, word has it that the Rockefellers, Joe Kennedy and all the other scam artists quietly exit the market, selling when the artificially inflated prices are sky high.

On October 24th, the big banks, owned by the same unindicted co-conspirators, call the loans to the suckers. Invevitably, a selling panic ensues and the whole house of cards collapses.

Gee, what a surprise!

It is seldom considered, however, that most of the shares which crashed on October 29 and in the next two weeks had been bought for some thirty billion dollars more than they were ultimately sold for.

An astonishing amount of money in 1929, most of which ended up in the pockets of some individuals in the know. Neither is it considered who rushed in to buy up the vast numbers of shares being dumped during and after Black Tuesday, acquiring companies and their assets for pennies on the dollar.

The Crash and the Depression which followed were, for some, not so much a disaster as simply another business opportunity in which they could snap up assets for a fraction of their true value and, simultaneously, and very importantly, drive down the cost of labor.

"The way to make money
is to buy
when blood
is running in the streets."   John D. Rockefeller
Sat, 08/14/2010 - 21:03 | 522128 robobbob
robobbob's picture

thx 4 the linx

operation hummingbird- aka night of the long knives

aka cleaning up loose ends

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 22:19 | 522164 DavidPierre
DavidPierre's picture

"loose ends"... got me free associating...again...

LOOSE CHANGE

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-3719259008768610598#docid=8510748876310097541

Totally depressing... yet powerful and hopeful ...millions have seen this movie and it still is available. When google takes it down it will be my signal to head back up into the high country of the Chilcotin.  Lots of "Slow Elk" but the grizzlies always get first dibs.

 

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 18:49 | 521027 robobbob
robobbob's picture

Nice start, but you over emphasize the Bush boogeyman. Bush was a front man for Thyssen. Germany had TIGHT FX rules, and after hostilites, so did America, and had to launder $$ through Union Bank to Dutch Bank voor Handel, and then back to Germany. Bush and Harrimans were only minority shareholder, but collected nice processing fees.

Left out was British interests including the Cliveden Set, under direction of Colonel Milner, Cecil Rhodes protege, Lady Astor used her ownership position of UK newspapers (Daily Mail?, Observer?) to downplay Nazi atrocities, and push sympathetic Nazi stories. (Claud Cockburn "The Week"-commie outfit)

On the rumor lines included Dutch Royal Shell who intervened at critical moments with cash infusions.

And lastly, it was the Germans themselves who carried the Nazis over the finish line with a last moment deal worked out under German/American financial wunderkind Hjalmar Horace Greeley Schacht to bring in money from Thessyn, Krupp (Rise Fall Third Reich, Shirer 1959)

After the preceding turmoil, the Nazis brought the appearance of stability and growth to Germany. Money looks for those things.

To summarize: People who want to make money will lend it to anyone. They either have no morality to start with, let themselves be blinded by what they want to see, or are foolish enough to believe that they will succeed where Dr Frankenstein failed. Like the Soviet Union, the Nazis were an international experiment. Want to know who's responsible, look towards the money changers.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 19:56 | 521079 DavidPierre
DavidPierre's picture

Robobob:

I read Shirer in high school in the early 60's and much too much in the next 45 years.  So yes... I did leave out a 'few' details in my comment. 

Shirer left out a "few" details also.

But... hey... cannot put it all in one short comment or even an entire book or two.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 22:24 | 521210 robobbob
robobbob's picture

Damn, you were lucky. Now days its "See Dick and Jane use Recyclables to make protest signs", "How America is always wrong, parts 1, 2 and 3", or "How I stopped worrying and learned to love the charge card""

Do you have any pull it together resources? actual accounting records that show who put up how much.  Is there a way to know who was just hedging bets and who were true believers?

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 00:14 | 521301 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

"When a government is dependent upon bankers for money, they and not the leaders of the government control the situation, since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes... Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain."
- Napoleon Bonaparte, 1815

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 03:33 | 521393 DavidPierre
DavidPierre's picture
1939-1940: War's Just Good Business, Shortselling Czech Stock,

 

Six months before World War Two begins, Joseph J. Larkin, vice-president in charge of European affairs of the Rockefellers' Chase National Bank, ...

In collusion with Winthrop Williams Aldrich, president and chairman of the board of Chase National, ... Plan with the Nazi Schroeder Bank, a partner with the Rockefellers in Schroeder, Rockefeller and Company,... secure an additional $25 million for the Nazi war machine.

Jew hater, pro-Nazi adulterer, bootlegger, stock market swindler and long-time Mafia associate cum U.S. Ambassador to Great Britain,... Joseph Kennedy cashes in... a bit of insider knowledge. With access to top secret intelligence information in his position as Ambassador, Kennedy learns that Hitler is about to invade Czechoslovakia. Kennedy short-sells Czech stock, the Germans invade, the Czech stock market collapses and Kennedy clears $500,000 to be stashed away with the rest of his criminal fortune. It's just good business....

Three weeks after the Nazi invasion of Czechoslovakia, General Motors chairman, Alfred P. Sloan, defends the fact that GM is the Nazis’ leading supplier of military vehicles as...  “sound business” “highly profitable”.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 14:12 | 521397 DavidPierre
DavidPierre's picture

Robobob:

"...pull it together resources?..."

God damn!... you got me on that one.

I just make this shit up.

google...

 

Henry Ford/Hitler

                  [That should be enough for the W/E]

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 19:15 | 522038 robobbob
robobbob's picture

Considering the importance, you would think someone would have put it together into a comprehensive list

yes, I am familiar with the google. That red light district where you pick up unvetted puzzle pieces and risk coming down with who knows what. Most of the people on this site seem well informed, but yet are constantly at odds. Gold, No Gold. Its Banksters, its Jews. If you can't get a consensus here, how can any progress be made?

you do have some good info to look into.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 20:06 | 522080 ATTILA THE WIMP
ATTILA THE WIMP's picture

Read everything by Webster Tarpley.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 18:41 | 522027 caconhma
caconhma's picture

Just 4-5 months ago, the EU Human Right Commission has equated the Soviets and Nazi crimes during the WWII.

A how come American mass media condemns crimes committed by Nazi and keeps its mouth shut regarding Soviets war crimes and atrocities?

OK, let me guess: American Jewish-controlled mass media would not like to mention that 10 out of 13 Soviet extermination concentration camps (aka GULARG) commandants were  Jewish.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 18:59 | 521043 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Harriman-controlled Hamburg-Amerika line

Which I believe they got control of (read: stole) in the after-math of WWI.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 12:37 | 521715 caconhma
caconhma's picture

<The Rockefellers’ Chase Manhattan Bank serves as a major source of finance for the Nazis and, as the Nazis send Jews, Gypsies, socialists and other “sub-humans” to the gas chambers in accordance with the eugenics agenda promulgated by the American ruling class, closes the accounts of its Jewish customers.>

This is a total rubbish coming from Soviet and Zionist sources.

  • Two weeks after Hitler came to power, in 1933, Jews/Zionists declared a war against Germany
  • The FDR administration (like Obama administration today) was overwhelmingly populated by Jews who exercised enormous influence over FDR and his domestic and foreign policies
  • Did the Nazis kill Jews, Gypsies, socialists and other “sub-humans”? The answer is "YES." Did Nazis use the gas chambers? The answer is "NO"!
    • Long before Hitler came to power, in late 1920s, the gas slaughter chambers were invented by Jewish scientist Dr. Berg and were widely used in Soviet Union to slaughter Russian peasants.
    • However, this was soon abandoned since, for the practical purposes, it could handle very few people. It could kill hundreds or even thousands and it is all.
    • To slaughter hundreds of thousands or millions of people, Soviet "successfully" used mass famines and concentration & extermination camps. Eventually, Soviet slaughtered over 35 millions of their people. (Still many less than Mao did in China. Oh well...)
    • The overwhelming majority of Jew perished during Holocaust have died in concentration camps from diseases and starvation during the last 4-6 months of the WWII since the Allied bombing totally destroyed Nazi infrastructure preventing any food supply into these camps.
  • Zionists prevented reallocation of hundreds of thousands Jews from Nazi Germany and Nazi occupied Europe to America and British colonies. This is why Zionists are so much against researching the Holocaust history.
  • Finally,
    • All without any exceptions  gas-chamber concentration camps were in the Soviet occupation zones. Can anybody trust Soviets? At the Nuremberg Process, the Soviets claimed that Nazi slaughtered 40,000+ Polish POW and intellectual elite in the Katyn Woods. Nazi were condemned for this war crime. In 1990, the Soviets admitted that they were responsible for the crime!
    • Speaking about mass war crimes killing civilians, the USA used nukes against pure civilian targets in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If it did not work, the USA were planning to gas Japan in violation of the international treaties America was a signatory. I rest my case!
Sat, 08/14/2010 - 20:09 | 522085 scratch_and_sniff
scratch_and_sniff's picture

So whats what?

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 18:01 | 520928 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

I wonder if Woodrow Wilson and the Rosenfeldts had anything to do with that?

- Ned

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 18:03 | 520932 assembler
assembler's picture

You sir, are an anti-semite revisionist. 

Jewish Bolshevism..., is a pejorative stereotype...

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 19:11 | 521054 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

Kevin MacDonald on Jews and Immigration

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCSeSOVCfkk

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 20:21 | 521094 breezer1
breezer1's picture

heres FOFOA , latest on confiscation...

http://fofoa.blogspot.com/

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 21:34 | 521155 Fred Hayek
Fred Hayek's picture

I know Stalin was not jewish.  I'm pretty sure Lenin was not jewish.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 06:49 | 521422 MarketTruth
MarketTruth's picture

ATG, forget FRACTIONAL reserve, Bernanke and their ilk want ZERO reserves:

"Given the very high level of reserve balances currently in the banking system, the Federal Reserve has ample time to consider the best long-run framework for policy implementation. The Federal Reserve believes it is possible that, ultimately, its operating framework will allow the elimination of minimum reserve requirements, which impose costs and distortions on the banking system" -- Federal Reserve February 10, 2010

www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/testimony/bernanke20100210a.htm#fn9

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 17:48 | 521980 Muscletonian
Muscletonian's picture

When did the great anomalies start to appear in S&P (Equities in general)?

 

I would say after the "flash crash". In a conspirational mind, I then ask myself, was the "flash crash" staged? And if so why?

 

Fact: One CME member firm had only sell orders that day (there is 250 in total). Is that any where near logical or rational. I say hell no, thats as black a swan as you'll ever see or find.

 

My thoughts: PPT staged the charade to see what would be the outcome when selling massively in the market (with HFTs and other computerized buy/sell programs running the market). They got a 10% downswing in 10 minutes, not really what they ever could dream of even in a worst case scenario.

After that we have seen strange buying on dips when all macro data has been awful, PPT just don't want that to happen again, anyway not until the stupid/lazy europeans are back from their vacations. A new sovereign debt crisis in Europe will suit Benron and Turbo T much better, those european assholes demanded austerity at the last G20 meeting, totally blanking Turbo T's fiscal efforts. Much better to make it look like the schmucks in Europe fucked it up. And then go for the next round of mega QE on a worldwide basis, no harm no foul if all currencies are inflated at the same time.

Sounds wacky I know, but the actions in the market have been way wackier. Sorry for introducing the thought here, but wanted to keep fresh in everybodys mind.

 

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 18:34 | 522022 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

Musc-I agree with your direction of your thinking. But:

"I say hell no, thats as black a swan as you'll ever see or find."

Pretty much, the "black swan" is a shit-happens event, one of those butterfly-wing-beating-causes-tornado-in-Kansas kinds of things.

Fraud, on the other hand, well that is the consequence of intended human action.

Now, I'd say that your scenario is highly likely, and the black swan would have been, like, meltup 100% in response to the fraud.  Now, that would have been unexpected.

Everything is a random variable? Prof. Taleb, thanks for screwing up my mind.

But "Black Swan" was this huge book in the Hamptons:

http://online.barrons.com/article/SB118197343764337791.html

but the bulk of the WS crowd can't comprehend random variables, nor fat tails, nor non-gauss distributions, and there you go.

- Ned

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 17:44 | 521976 Muscletonian
Muscletonian's picture

When did the great anomalies start to appear in S&P (Equities in general)?

 

I would say after the "flash crash". In a conspirational mind, I then ask myself, was the "flash crash" staged? And if so why?

 

Fact: One CME member firm had only sell orders that day (there is 250 in total). Is that any where near logical or rational. I say hell no, thats as black a swan as you'll ever see or find.

 

My thoughts: PPT staged the charade to see what would be the outcome when selling massively in the market (with HFTs and other computerized buy/sell programs running the market). They got a 10% downswing in 10 minutes, not really what they ever could dream of even in a worst case scenario.

After that we have seen strange buying on dips when all macro data has been awful, PPT just don't want that to happen again, anyway not until the stupid/lazy europeans are back from their vacations. A new sovereign debt crisis in Europe will suit Benron and Turbo T much better, those european assholes demanded austerity at the last G20 meeting, totally blanking Turbo T's fiscal efforts. Much better to make it look like the schmucks in Europe fucked it up. And then go for the next round of mega QE on a worldwide basis, no harm no foul if all currencies are inflated at the same time.

 

Sounds wacky I know, but the actions in the market have been way wackier. Sorry for introducing the thought here, but wanted to keep fresh in everybodys mind.

Also what happened to all the hearings etc etc after the "falsh crash". Didnt hear much more did we?

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 18:39 | 522025 New_Meat
Fri, 08/13/2010 - 15:00 | 520521 Ned Zeppelin
Ned Zeppelin's picture

Party. Over.

Out.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 15:33 | 521897 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

The Federal Reserve believes it is possible that, ultimately, its operating framework will allow the elimination of minimum reserve requirements,

Party. Over.

Out.

thanks Market Truths & Ned Zepp & Rusty, & David Pierre, and all the rest of you brilliant questioners of (almost) all things fed us - I'm out to my garden, but seriously, thanks for the laughter generated - absurdity has taken hold, it's crazier than any one of us can imagine - get practical - aquaponics beyotchez! 

oh, and if you haven't watched this, do.  what's left but realisation, eh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbp6umQT58A

 

I've said it before, but y'all do rock, best wishes to you & yours, and thanks to Zero Hedge for holding the space. . .

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 18:45 | 522029 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

Aura, there was a time when I had a pretty big garden, not too much money, and sometimes a really frustrating day.  I'd come home and my bride would calibrate me by a) how much I said and b) how quickly I went out the door to the garden.

Many weeds died, life got better.

Grew my first jalapeno and habanero those years.  Not so much back in NE.

- Ned

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 21:38 | 522148 ColonelCooper
ColonelCooper's picture

Ned -  Funny how that "out to the garden" thing goes.  You get home after a shit ass, SHIT ass day; the last thing I want to do is go pull weeds and thin beets and carrots.  I'd rather go wet a line, or just sit on the damn porch with a glass of bourbon.  Nonetheless, I grab a beer and head out.  Inevitably, the beer is left half full, warm on the corner post, and I'm calmly weeding.  It may be the most therapeutic thing in my life.  Probably next to sitting in a deer stand.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 15:01 | 520523 bugs_
bugs_'s picture

What an incredible summary.  Excellent one liners

...paying for the funeral...

...keynesian endpoint...

Way to go!

 

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 17:11 | 520842 knukles
knukles's picture

Unfortunately, we the common man shall likely continue paying for the funeral for generations hence, for our Esteemed, Trusted, Honorable Elected Representatives (my Congressman actually introduces himself like that) shall need additional tax revenues to further the Ponzi.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 15:04 | 520525 Number 156
Number 156's picture

...and we are still digging the hole in which to lay his coffin.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 15:28 | 520603 Noah Vail
Noah Vail's picture

No fan of Keynes, I will say that he never advocated deficit spending to this degree. From what I know of him I'm sure the man would be horrified at what goes on in his name. He was no wild-eyed idiot.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 15:56 | 520671 ATG
ATG's picture

Yes, Keynes practiced balanced budgets with hidden value and reserve surplus.

NeoKeynesian DC economists perverted his work.

Fabian socialist Mathematics Don Nobel Laureate Pederast Baron John Maynard Keynes ran the money as Bursar for Kings College at Cambridge in 1924 and ran 30,000 pounds into 380,000 pounds when he passed in 1946, using contrary income value investing, spending the dividends on College expenses, earning 12% CAGR during the Depression and WWII while markets went down -15% the same time period...

http://www.maynardkeynes.org/keynes-the-investor.html

http://www.jubileeprosperity.com/

 

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 16:06 | 520700 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Any politically connected person who actually believed that government would pay down the debt during the "good times" (as his theory dictates) qualifies as a wild-eyed idiot.

Now, whether Keynes believed they would do so is a different question. And one that he never had to answer.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 18:41 | 521017 THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

Hey - Ireland payed down our fiscal debt to zero - but it did not mean jack shit.

We had Friedmanites everywhere blowing up massive monetary bubbles that had negative return.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 20:26 | 521098 breezer1
breezer1's picture

dork, you will like this , 'Barters Hill'

http://www.myspace.com/nightingalevt

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 21:07 | 521125 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

We had the same geniuses here in the US aka "supply-siders", trying to substitute massive deficits for actual economic growth. To combat the inflationary consequences of their money printing and loosening of credit standards they encouraged outsourcing and offshoring and thus gutted US industrial and manufacturing might. The result was a nation that consumes much and produces little. 

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 08:55 | 521477 Disambiguation
Disambiguation's picture

CE,

 

Offshoring has moved many jobs to low cost labor pools, but to claim that the insdutrial and manufacturing might of the country has been gutted, belies the fact that the US manufacturing has been reduced only in head count, via increased productivity. US manufacturers produce more today than they did 10, 20, 30, 40, or 50 years ago, but they do it with a reduced and more automated labor force. There has been a lack of overall growth in industrial out put, but not a shrinkage. Meanwhile, as you state, consumerism has exploded, as have the "service industries" which support consumerism, and all of this has been supported via an unsustainable credit accumulation.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 13:46 | 521794 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

Hehe. US manufacturing employment that you say is so huge is mostly foreign workers in foreign factories in foreign countries. Not US workers. Beginning in the 1970s and especially in the 1980s, The entire Great Lakes economy was gutted as a result of offshoring, as was what was left of Eastern textile manufacturing and garment workers. Major appliances, autos, electronics, building supplies, chemical products, and even much of agricultural products all were offshored, outsourced (your glass of OJ is 65% Brazilian). All those were previously areas of American industrial might and know-how, creating jobs and demand for satellite industries, support and logistics industries, R&D as well as services (legal, financial, customer support etc). Those companies also reinvested in America, not China. Now since the 2000s, even service workers are being gradually outsourced: Banks employ workers in India to take your calls, back office work is offshore, IT and support outsourced. 

Outsourcing was the only way to avoid inflation when the country ran massive trade deficits.

And you seriously believe that that this model is sustainable?

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 22:21 | 522166 ColonelCooper
ColonelCooper's picture

I believe he was talking "output", vs. "employment".   Employment down, automation up, manufacturing still up.

Not taking a side, just interpreting.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 20:13 | 521089 KevinB
KevinB's picture

I wish you Americans actually looked at the world beyond your borders, like, for example, next door.

Canada, under both Liberal and Conservative governments, paid down over $100 billion in national debt from 1997-2007, and, under the Conservative government of Stephen Harper, did so while cutting our national sales tax from 7% to 5%, and cutting both income and corporate taxes as the same time. Yes, in the current recession, they've run a deficit, but it's come in 1) lower than projected, and 2) they are now predicting a return to surplus next year.

Here's a clue: what happens in the United States is not necessarily what's happening in the rest of the world. Idiot.

 

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 21:12 | 521112 DavidPierre
DavidPierre's picture

My God man!

Look outside the USSA?

Never!

See all the above comments about the "Squirrels" cannibalizing each other when the SHTF in amerika.

Me...I'm looking to eat 'Slow Elk' that roam all over back in the mountains of BC. 

Don't even try to 'edumacate' them.  Waste of time and effort.

John Embry and Eric Sprott have been at it for years and see how far it has got them with all the stupid back and forth comments above from the "Squirrel's" South of the 49th.

 

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 02:10 | 521376 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Here's a clue: what happens in the United States is not necessarily what's happening in the rest of the world. Idiot.

Since Canada is essentially dependent upon the US economy, I'm afraid if we go down, you'll be pulled down too....hope I'm wrong.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 04:59 | 521411 DavidPierre
DavidPierre's picture

Consider the inverse. JLee.

'The US economy is essentially dependent upon Canada.'

Might want to chew over that thought for awhile.

If the US goes down, Canada just might go up; along with the R.O.W.

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 14:34 | 521844 grunion
grunion's picture

I have always been rather ambiguous regarding canada but you are helping me to rethink my position to a less favorable view

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 14:38 | 521851 hound dog vigilante
hound dog vigilante's picture

KevinB,

Thank you for the necessary and over-due reminder that the USA in NOT the center of the universe. The pre-dominant USA-centric POV is one of the factors that got the USA into the mess that it's in now, and continues to hinder attempts to climb out of the grave it's dug for itself.

Outdated paradigms (USA #1 !!!) are fueled by vapor/ego, and will die hard.

 

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 21:15 | 522134 robobbob
robobbob's picture

the center of the universe is where ever you happen to be standing at the moment

and since most people commenting here are from the USA....

 

Sat, 08/14/2010 - 22:30 | 522171 ColonelCooper
ColonelCooper's picture

@Kevin B:

It would seem that you really have no clue how important we Americans actually are.

Simply by birthright we are entitled to limitless food, shelter and entertainment.  You bitch simply out of envy.

Our country is rich beyond your wildest dreams.  When we need something, we simply "deem" it to be.

Now go watch an American $$ subsidized hockey game and be quiet.  I have apps to download on my new Ipad.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 16:15 | 520710 Thomas
Thomas's picture

I concur. One of the fatal flaws of Keynes theories in application is that we never achieved a zero-sum game. If government spent necessary expenditures during lean times (sucking up resources and labor when they are cheap) and then backed off during affluent periods (letting the free market battle for the resources and labor), then maybe it would have worked. Keynsian economics in practice is problematic to the core because it never seems to reset. Stimulative environments become the new normal.

For those interested in this stuff, Hayek's "The Fatal Conceipt" does a remarkable job of poking a stick in the eye of all the clowns throughout history who thought we ought to be able to design complex systems better than they evolve. 

Note Added in Proof: We seem to return to Keynsianism every time we are deep shit. I am reminded of Tutor Turtle calling for Mr. Wizard.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 16:46 | 520799 Geoff-UK
Geoff-UK's picture

Saying Keynes should be forgiven for expecting politicians to reduce spending in good times is like saying Marx bears no responsibility for communism not working because he believed a man would work his ass off for a stranger 3,000 miles away.

Keynes knew he was telling politicians what they wanted to hear, and reveled in the adulation.

Fri, 08/13/2010 - 21:59 | 521176 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

I am reminded of Tutor Turtle calling for Mr. Wizard.

Tutor: Help, Mr. Wizard!

Mr. Wizard: Razzle, dazzle, drazzle, drone, time for this for the one to come home!

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!