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EU To Greece: "We Want To Help You Help Yourself"... And We Want To Own You After You File For Bankruptcy
Well, nobody is leaving the eurozone (as expected), but EU is merely ratcheting up the rhetoric one notch seeing full well what happens to countries that continue to endorse unlimited banker bail outs. And it is likely that the war of words will simply continue escalating until such time as the Greek restructuring becomes inevitable, which will likely happen not sooner than a year from now due to Greek bailout liquidity availability and nobody will push the country to do the inevitable until there is even one spare euro in the coffers for fears of what will happen to Deutsche Bank and the European financial domino. So for those wondering what happened at last night's secret finance minister meeting, one one hand, as Dow Jones reports, Greece "asked its euro-zone partners to ease the country's deficit targets as it struggles to comply with strict austerity terms set under last year's financial bailout agreement, a senior euro-zone government official said Saturday. The senior official said Greece acknowledged that it is unlikely to be able to return to the bond market next year and might need to tap the European Financial Stability Facility, the EU's new bailout fund, for funding. A German proposal to possibly extend the maturities of Greek debt falling due in 2012 also was discussed, this person said. Athens has a long-term borrowing requirement of EUR27 billion in 2012. "Greece has asked for the deficit targets to be eased, specifically to push the budget deficit target of 3% of GDP in 2014 forward by at least two years."" Alas, as expected the latest panhandling attempt by Greece was met with abject failure: "No decisions were taken, according to the Commission's statement. Greece's request for easier terms didn't win the assent of Germany and other participants in Friday's meeting, according to a senior European official." In other words, the country is on autopilot, and possibly worse. Per Bloomberg: "European Union officials may require Greece to provide collateral for aid as policy makers struggle to prevent the euro area’s first sovereign debt restructuring, said a person with direct knowledge of the situation."In other words, for the first time since Weimar, a country may soon be forced to collateralize superpriority debt issuance to foreign creditors: an exercise not really seen in international politics since the Weimar war reparations... and at least Germany had its own currency back then. Summary: the EU just told Greece to prepare for Debtor in Possession loan issuance. Basically should Greece default, and it will, the Parthenon will go to Germany, Santorini will go to Luxembourg, Piraeos will likely end up in IMF hands, and the Chinese will own the rest. Welcome to sovereign debt restructurings for the 21st century.
From Dow Jones:
The ECB, the European Commission, France and others remain opposed to any rescheduling of Greek debt, fearing it could spark worsening capital flight from other indebted euro members and damage the Greek banking system.
"There is strong opposition to this by Trichet," one euro-zone official said, adding that the Greek issue will be "extensively discussed" at the May 16-17 meeting of European Union finance ministers.
These meetings precede the June audits of the Greek government's budget to measure the sustainability of the country's debt load, seen as a key hurdle for Greece's recovery plan.
The Eurogroup's Juncker told journalists after the Luxembourg meeting Friday night that it was decided that Greece needs a further adjustment program, but he excluded restructuring the country's sovereign debt.
The president representing the 17 countries using the euro joined other officials in firmly denying press reports that Greece was considering a withdrawal from the euro zone altogether.
But Juncker said Greece needs a further adjustment program, without furnishing details.
"We are not discussing the exit of Greece from the euro area, this is a stupid idea and an avenue we would never take," Juncker said Friday.
Asked if rescheduling Greek debt to extend maturities also had been excluded, Juncker said: "we have excluded any restructuring of Greek debt."
Some more from Bloomberg with the quote du jour:
“We’ll just have to bite the bullet,” Barthle said in an interview today from his district in the state of Baden- Wuerttemberg. “We need to help Greece help itself. What’s the alternative? We don’t want to be pushed over the edge into restructuring.”
And just how will Greece be helped? Why by collateralizing any new supersenior debt with bits and pieces of its sovereign holdings:
Expanding the 110 billion-euro ($158 billion) lifeline Greece received last year may mean that assets or revenue from asset sales are used to secure extra funds, the person said. Demanding collateral, an idea floated last year by Finland, may help avoid a political backlash against bailouts.
Increasing aid may run into opposition in Germany and Finland, where bailouts have sparked a backlash. Finnish Finance Minister Jyrki Katainen, who suggested seeking collateral for Ireland for its November bailout, is leading talks to form a government that may include the euro-skeptic True Finns party.
As to the whole abandoning the eurozone lunacy: that will never voluntarily happen until Greece has even a cent of taxpayer funded bailout money:
Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou said the report of a possible euro exit was made up and the government was handling the country’s debt in the best way possible, Kathimerini newspaper reported.
Abandoning the euro would have “catastrophic” consequences, Greek Finance Minister George Papaconstantinou told Italian newspaper La Stampa. Public debt would double, consumer spending power would be “shattered” and the country would sink into a “war-like recession,” he said.
Which leaves just one option:
“The likelihood of a restructuring of Greek market debt this year has gone up,” David Mackie, London-based chief European economist at JPMorgan Chase & Co., said in a note yesterday.
Greece has about 330 billion euros in outstanding bonds, according to a May 5 report by UBS AG. The Swiss bank estimates that 22 percent is held by Greeks and Cypriots, the ECB has 19 percent and the EU and International Monetary Fund together have about 11 percent.
About 22 billion euros will mature this year and 33 billion euros next year, according to an April 29 ING Groep NV report.
Greek bonds have declined since the 2010 bailout, with yields on two-year notes reaching a euro-era record of 26.27 percent on April 28. The extra yield investors demand to hold Greek 10-year debt over comparable German bonds widened 4 basis points to 1,233. Greece was supposed to return to markets next year even as its debt peaks at 159 percent of gross domestic product.
So restructuring it is, but not before European bankers show their generosity one more time by funding the Greek DIP loan which in one year will give them a first lien on all the assets used as collateral, probably at a blue light special LTV valuation. We hope Portugal and Ireland are watching and learning how the ECB has commenced the process of peacetime reparations.
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Greece is da word is da word is da word
Congratulations Tyler, you were mentioned on the Rush Limbaugh show for your very informative Zero Hedge blog. Rush is my favorite talk radio hosts and has about 20 million listeners. I am sure traffic to ZH will increase. Many thanks for the great work you do here.
I am sure Tyler wil love being associated with a racist, facist, idiot.
Dont you have BenBucks to donate to obamao or something?
Greece is under invasion, live footage of german elite KSK special force commandos storming Greece:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct4wwmK9aOA&feature=related
Racist? Hardly. Disagreeing with socialist ghetto dwellers is not racism. Failure to have sympathy for poor ethnic groups is not racism either.
Fascist? No doubt at all about that.
Idiot? Hm......he sure made a lot of money for being such an idiot!
People who "make" money can't be idiots?
The world was a better place when he was introducing the KC Royals. The fact that a handful of corporate banker-gangsters will stand by an ignorant bloviating drug-addict hardly makes him special.
Good whores whore themselves out successfully - doesn't make 'em bright. Just makes them good whores.
Whoa, go easy there big fella... You're doing all the heavy lifting while we watch you work your magic; Thanks for the original thoughts. I've never heard it put that way before.
+100, it has always suprised me that many of those that comment on ZH, support those idealogs that get their funding from the same people that support the people casuing the problem. That is, anyone in government, dem or repub. But then again, they all come up with such clever names to fling at eachother, monkey throwing shit!
they should all be forced to read the Dogma chapter in Parsson's "Dying of Money"
anyway, Greece will lose everything to foreign owners like Slovakia
I just listen to all these guys for what is not being said. The omissions are always more interesting.
Rush limbah rite
the facist guy that sucks BP cock as their WMD errupts on our shores?
race card - check
nazi card - check
name calling - check
I'm not a Limbaugh fan, but this racism/nazi card has worn thin.
how 'bout banana hammocks?
I didn't junk you, but isn't that just a fancy term for 'budgie smugglers'? Not quite in the same league as nazism/racism as a veiled insult or a term that leads to Godwin's Law manifesting...unless that is the whole irreverent point of your suggestion...
Name calling is required in 41% of the posts on this site -- sorry, it seems to be a requirement. And marginalizes the site.
But it gives you a pretty good look at the intellect level of people in general -- fairly hollow arguments.
But that's ok. Just need to factor that abundant character trait in making money trading and investing. Sadly though, many of these folks will expect someone else to take care of them (and TPTB are inclined to provide).
You actually calculated the percentage of name-calling-posts, you Nerd!
You sicko Alinsky freaks ought to just do to yourselves what you so fervently desire to have done to others.
Disagreeing with radical leftist IS NOT RACIST.
FUCKING TOOL.
You know what, This is the one thing I hate about ZH. There are people out there with such a political bent. Who cares if you like Rush Limbaugh or not? Its going to bring more traffic to ZH. If he was mentioned on Daily Kos, would it make you feel any better? It wouldnt bother me. Who cares what anyone thinks, a win is a win.
Lets see, They have had a republican, and a democrat in the White house, however I see the same policies. The Tea party? It will be the same, trust me. So throw away your party politics, and embrace your new-found identity, one far removed from the idiocy and insanity that's sending the whole world headlong into the abyss.
Whenever I see Steve Liesman on some linked clip I think I am looking at Rush
i'm so glad rush is finally out of the closet. maybe now he will finally be able to give up those drugs and truly recover.
How's our favorite drug addict doing these days?
Isn't the Oxy-contin geek in jail? Oh yeah - rich white drug addicts don't go to jail.
He's doing fine. Playing basketball at the white house, bailing out Wall Street, bombing Libya, and faking raids into Pakistan.
I believe it was coaine and heroin, not oxy. He's only half-white. His father is Kenyan.
Funny how people are so obsessed and raging at the talking heads on CNN/Fox/MSNBC/radio when the real enemy is in government screwing us over. None of those talking heads started wars or approved the bailouts.
No - the real enemy is the banker-gangster cabal to whom you whore yourself.
Reality aside - you believe that puppets run the puppet show because you're paid to do so.
The banksters are the men pulling the strings. The corrupt politicians are their paid henchmen. Once we get rid of their henchmen, they have no defense. Default on all debt owed to the Fed. Fuck them.
You need to get over your obsession with whores and hookers
And you need to stop diminishing the role played by the psychopathic banker-gangsters, who have run this system into a state of terminal decay. You treat death panels for grandma as a fait accompli without even approaching to the root of our economic crisis.
Later you backtrack in order to establish some anti-banker credibility - that's not the point.
I'll bet you vote Union Yes!
The unions and the banksters and the corporations and the politicians are all members of the same institutional cabal. They act like they're a superior animal, homo ultimus, and they hate lowly homo sapiens.
Petty partisan politics is where everyone fails. Either you're an individualist, or a Party member.
Old Poor Richard, winner by knockout!
Bingo!
Give that man a cigar!
"I am sure traffic to ZH will increase. Many thanks for the great work you do here. "
Good god, I hope not.
Well, fuck it.
No.
Well get more fucking inbred retards.
"One of the websites that I keep track of on matters of economics is a place called ZeroHedge.com, and there's a poster there by the name of Tyler Durden who occasionally posts some interesting stuff. For example, "Today's Bureau of Labor Statistics number 244,000 jobs is great until you exclude the 62,000 from McDonalds hirings, and 175,000 from the Birth Death Adjustment." The net new jobs in the private sector is 7,000. That's the net new jobs. "
-
explains some of the recent idiocy
Oh please God no! Do not need more idiots here that believe in political divisions that were created to divert the attetion of the masses while being robbed by both sides.
I miss when this site's commentariat would focus on the financial aspect of the worlds problems with good debate. Now too many people that are left/right wing nut jobs are here and blame politicians. All the good debate is gone. I do not know why those with strong political ties/opinions come here in that all analysis has no policital motivation behind it. This site is about educating/disseminating information in a neutral light.
Speaking of which, the comments lately, remind me of the stuff I read on here http://www.pwsnt.com/
Americans are being robbed by two colours of parasites and judging by the above they're so screwed up they're actually picking sides rather than identifying it's two sides of the same target
no wonder you're at war with everybody including yourselves, you're all too dymb to identify the fuking enemy!
The tea party is as close as you will get to zero government.
They alone want to kill off most of the federal government. I daresay they would end federal income taxes if they could get away with it.
There are real differences. Long live the tea party!
Those misguided morons would probably try to institute a flat tax. Then we could have almost equal taxes liabilities with a vast difference in the distribution of wealth. Hopefully after the flat tax is instituted we could invade a country that had nothing to do with 9/11(clearly a government conspiracy) then give Haliburton a no bid oil contract.
Rush is ok, been listening to him on and off for 19 years now. He used to be only source of non liberal spin around before the the Internet web.
I doubt that most of his listeners would keep u with zh info, too over their heads. But still good to get mention. Good job!
Shows that this isn't a fringe website if someone as respected as rush sites it!
"if someone as respected as rush sites it!'
You gotta be fucking kiddin me.
At least I hope so, you genetically inbred mutated second generation West Kentucky coal miner offal.
Then again maybe I missed the /sarc switch, my bad
-
Rush Limbaugh is as much a fool as any of them. Any 'edge' he once had has been dulled by too much food, drugs and adulation. He is neither right nor left wing. He is a slightly louder mainstream member of the "chicken" wing.
Hey RaymondKHessel,
I think the song goes more like:
"WAR, what is it good for, absolutely nothin' "....except extracting pounds of flesh. I just hope we get the hell out of NATO before these idiots start killing themselves again.
looks like the lazy are beating the industrius.... at least for now....
Woulda, coulda, shoulda.
Default now Greece, come on.
As much as I hate the financial gangsters it is tough to conjure up a lot of sympathy for countries like Ireland and Greece. I think they should default. But let us not forget that they were nothing more than HELOC'ers on a massive scale. They liberated their equity and now they can't pay. The stories out of Ireland in 2006 made Florida look sane.
did they buy the debt or did the countries up tot their eyeballs lending to these countries buy the now worthless debt? I say the latter. That makes this more about "scents" than "cents." Ask for another bailout...and another and another--and then marry some rich guy (girl?) and call it a life.
we will all find out all too soon just how long and how strong a corrupt government is and can last. Vote Out The Encumbants.... at least the corrupt ones anyway...
No - default, banker-gangsters. Greece should tell them to get fucked, and see how that affects their little paper portfolio.
And when the banker-gangsters die off, Greece will still be there.
And so we now know and enter the true end game.... Where the bankers take posession of countries.
It all makes sense now. I read an article that mentioned this a few months ago, and thought it was a very interesting take... now it's coming to fruition...
Debt terrorism has been pushed on more and more... finally the banks swoop in to take "their property" and we are all f*cked. Watch for this more, now that it's real
Good luck all...
B
"end" game? this has been the IMF's pursuit for 50 years. They have busted out so many sovereigns with debtmoney...actually this crap goes back to the South Seas Bubble and even further. The Bank of England's very existence is for this purpose. It's to lend money at compound interest to people who DON'T UNDERSTAND MATH. That is the entire point.
Take a look at the role of the usury clan in the weimar period. They came out the other side owning the entire Reich. Inflation then deflation...jfc, Thomas Jefferson was talking about this crap over 200 years ago.
Why does everyone THINK that the usury clan has been so historically hated? Why does everyone THINK usury and lending at interest was prohibited for so long?
And rates-going-up next round, bitchez. The higher, the better
I completely agree with your point of history on usury. I guess I haven't seen anything so blatant as threatening to take the actual country apart do to the debt.... becoming a basic bankruptcy case.... lose the house... lose the car ect... to the bank... to the corporation and becoming an actual known corporation controlled interest. Up until now it's been swept under the rug... this is out in the open.
I now see banks and corporations actually taking possession of an entire country and becoming the government itself as the goal. That's why I am saying it's the end game... When once soveriegn countries are turned into corporate properties it's over (not like I'm trying to limit the truth that countries are currently owned by corporations... but not the same in my mind).
B
The new "war." Greece has been overrun by other empires for years, so this will be a slightly more dramatic 'non-event'. The real fun will be the fight between France and Germany.
The USA should just flip the FED the bird and DEFAULT on it all.
Those European Bankers have bent America over since the Revolutionary War.
TWe won the battle but lost the Banking War.
So screw the FED. You'll get NOTHING AND LIKE IT.
That'll fix their wagon.
Greece should do the Same. Reneg on the whole sardine aka enchilada!
Screw you EU.
You F'd Up, You TRUSTED us!!!!!
No, the USA should exercise its rights per Article 16 of the obscure & overtly UN-restrictive Outer Space Treaty of 1967, and unilaterally withdraw, thus giving us the sovereign right to have, protect, exploit, buy, sell, lease, develop materials, commercial processes, discoveries et al, on the 'effin Moon.
Screw the Eurocrat surrender monkeys and their forever problematic continent. After we go back to the Moon (what the Chinese already see), it will become an American economic renaissance on the order of what happened after the Pacicfic Railroad Act was passed. 50 years of genuine, non-financial, economic & technological growth... leaving the likes of the BRICs in the dust.
Not going to happen any time soon, the blue prints and the punch cards with the data required to build the Saturn V have been misplaced/lost, and there is no other carrier big and powerful enough for the return trip.
Why else would the once so proud USA pay the Russians to transport their payloads to the ISS?
We lost the cold war. Communist china does all the manufacturing and now russia is the leader in space. Great job.
Russia and China need better Hollywood style filmmaking before they make it to the moon.
if only others could realise that someday space flight will seem to humans like boats on the see look to us.. energy collapse before alternatives are found notwithstanding.
No - the United States government should exercise its authority and seize the assets of the underwater Fed member banks.
The Fed doesn't care if the US defaults. It's just ersatz fiat printed out of thin air. There's no asset whatsoever underlying the dollar, and the Fed is not a for-profit bank.
If the Fed were to be defaulted against, it would not suffer in any way. Nobody's salary would be cut, it's operations wouldn't be impacted, there would be no 'destruction' of any wealth.
If I was in the business of printing zoolaks and giving them away to my friends as "loans", and somebody said they're not giving them back, I'd just snort. Now--if OTOH they said they weren't going to pay me any longer for the privilege of borrowing those zoolaks, if there were going to threaten my income, that would be different.
That's what the debt ceiling furor is about. That's why anyone merely threatening to throttle borrowing by not raising the debt ceiling is an Al Qaida terrorist. Not because they might "default," which would be meaningless, but instead because they might cease borrowing.
I want you...To want me!
Cheap Trick in Budokan, Japan!
The greatest underground band of the seventies that presaged our alternative music future.
I do not understand why Germany cares so much about these small piece of shit countries in Europe. I understand the idea of EU but it is not working is it? Why not just focus on making Germany a powerhouse in Europe. Why spend all this German money on shit countries like Greece? The funds they receive to infrastructure project just end up disappearing to corruption.
As for Greece they should just default there is just no way a little 'tourism economy' can 'grow' out of that much debt.
If you were a German bigwig and you were rolling in it right now, would you want anything to change?
The key reality is the swaps. The CDS decide all of this. The banks have had well over a year to divest themselves of the swaps so that default can take place without Lehman-like rippling around the world.
They Have Refused To Divest.
This is beyond arrogance. It is an assertion of power. They have informed Merkel that they are not divested and if default occurs, Germany and Europe and maybe the whole world falls. They have *instructed* Merkel to continue to funnel taxpayer money to prevent default, knowing that indirectly that money eventually becomes salary and bonus for themselves.
Behold the complexity of a system dependent on a scarce resource becoming even more scarce.
++. The only valid solution for Greece is debt repudiation through scalping, not haircuts, which is the fertilizer for conquest and war. When one debt repudiation domino falls, the rest will be emboldened to follow. All the international banksters have learned the contagion lesson of strategic default by now... and Greece is subprime all the way.
The CDS are just one of the bankers' cards, and they have whole deck. The biggest obstacle is that the Greek government is in bed with EU bankers. Until the Greek people put in place a Greek government which does not seek to borrow EU money and redistribute it the Greek people, the Greek people will be screwed. A war against bankers cannot succeed when all the foot soldiers seek to have their meals paid for by those very bankers. This is just kabuki theater on the Bataan Death March to an economic enslavement camp.
and if the ECB has bought debt in the open market and holds it, we've added a new potential loser that can't lose to the equation - makes it harder to let them restructure than before
Yes there is a loser and the northern europeans know who it is.
The ecb monetizes debt and dilutes the currency base, stealing from everyone, but especially those who try to save.
The Euro is strong enough to handle some 'QE'.
It is still theft.
It is not "free" of cost as you imply.
However i agree the ecb can do this,
but will it make the conservative parties
stronger and northern europeans angrier
at the blatant subsidy?
As a 'Northern European' myself I could care less.
Lets see, I own:
500 troy oz physical silver
100 troy oz physical gold
500 troy oz 'paper silver'
have zero debt
how do you suppose hitler came to power?
He was not in league with the bankers. After every collapse, it seems like the same clan comes out the other side using their banking contacts to own everything. Was the same in Russia after their collapse and hyperinflation. Putin came to power and threw their oligarchs out, the people who had carved up the country using banking devices
Germany thought the Euro would make it the Uber power house of Europe. It thought that once the peripheral states (ireland - spain - portugal - greece etc) had currency stability and low interest rates, they would be a ble to build their ecconomies to be productive. Instead they used the EU umbrella to go on a welfare and property speculation binge, enabled by the European banks. If Germanys vision had been correct, they would have enjoyed huge exports of capital goods, cars and technology to their newly productive neighbours. Now they have the problem that their banks will go bust if Greece does.
I agree 100%, Reload. These countries acted just like our friends and families that HELOC'ed the hell out of their houses. They didn't use that money for productivity and wealth creation. They used it for Escalades, trips to Vegas, fake melons and granite countertops. And now that they are broke they are whining and screaming "predatory lending". Like Will Rogers said, "you can't beak a man that don't borrow".
Depends what you mean by "idea of EU".
As a customs union, along with safety guaranteed to all countries involved, i think the current countries inside are just fine and it should definitely NOT be extended any further. However, to your point, as for common currency and everything else within the Eurozone umbrella, that truly should have stuck only to Fr/Ger/Benelux and perhaps a few Slavic countries for good measure. Already you have "special entities" which aren't forced to change currencies (England) and that just makes the whole thing even more of a mess.
Would like to see 2 euros, a strong one and a weak one. Probably the best bet and more leeway for countries like the PIGS.
But if more nations aren't brought into the EU web it's harder to issue fiat debt and then attempt to secure real assets in the inevitable event of default.
Don't cry for Germany or any central bank. But I'm not going to shed tears for the people that were sucking down gallons of Kool-Aid during the biggest debt induced orgy in history either. I just hope they learn a lesson and then default on the debt. The current system is wicked and unsustainable. There aren't enough printing presses to make this clusterphuck work.
Do you blame the Bank for lending out money to no good waste or for the no good waste that took the loans? You tell me.
Both.
Don't forget that the banker-gangsters print up the DEBT out of thin air. The scam has to originate somewhere.
Your whole construction implies the banker-gangsters AREN'T the waste, yet they're the least productive, most parasitical breed of 'waste'.
They're a form a 'waste' that lives off of hidden fees, fine print, voided contracts, and all other sorts of fraud in order to steal what they didn't produce. And then if that doesn't work, they'll commission alCIAda to launch a fucking world war and take it that way.
Real stand-up guys, those banker-gangsters.
The best place for them to stand is right in front of a wall, facing a firing squad of the 6,000,000,000 people they've systematically robbed blind.
Cry me a river. You know this mess is not <only> the fault of EU/EMU and Germany you know. These cockroaches (All small piece of shit third world countries in Europe) was on a spending binge for years and received funds to rebuild infrastructure and social programs. Well it is time to pay back.
people only pay back when they feel their life is getting better.. when it all caves they piss on the bills`
Pay back to whom? Some crooked, opium laced banker-gangster? So they can use it at their little casino? HA!
Why not just tell these fraudulent goons to go fuck themselves? What's the logic in NOT doing that?
Oh yea, the logic is "gimme my bonus ... gimme, gimme, gimme ... I want it ... I NEED a new man-purse!"
To those thinking "germany" is the big winner of the EU:
- What do you call "germany" here? The country? The government? The megacorps? Germany may look good on first sight, if one looks at the usual stats like GDP, and the whole export/import stuff. Heck, its debt may even look good, until you add all the negative cash it lended to others, and which it will NOT get back. But wait, i'm drifting off... what do you mean by "germany"? The population?
Let me tell you something. You think 10% annual inflation is bad? Umm, how about.... 40 fucking percent annual commodity price inflation? Surprised? Well, when the euro first was established, and replaced the german mark, one german mark was worth somewhere around 0,50-0,60 EUR. HOWEVER, in a matter of just a few months, the prices in shops were almost the same in EUR, as what they previously were in german marks. This mainly applied to commodities - thinks like rents were magically unaffected..... something else that was unaffected: Wages.
Consider the above: Imagine your wage would stay flat, but prices in shops increase by about 40%? Still think "germany" was better off by the whole deal? Oh, sure, the exporting corporations certainly were better off.... even though, for some reason, the cash with which other countries would buy those exports, would be lended by germany.... makes total sense.... "TAKE THIS MONEY AND BUY MY WARES, AND I WILL BECOME RICH!". Riiight. Germany is better off..... on paper, and in worthless stats like GDP.
- The relationship between germany/france, and most others, is like an abuser-dependent relationship, and lots of economic "magic".... and as you may know or may not know.... in a typical abuser-dependent relationship, BOTH lose in the longterm. Here, germany made itself dependent on exports, while the periphery made itself dependent on imports.... germany would behind those pointless economic stats go broke, because its wares are bought with the money which it lends to the importers..... so, it would get sucked dry of cash.... the "importers" on the other hand, would sacrifice their economic selfautonomy, by becoming a debt-powered import-junkie
- In germany, there was strong mainstream resistance against the european monetary union. Heck, at the beginning all the newspapers were full of euro-bashing, going as far as nicknaming the euro "teuro" (a mix of the terms "expensive" and "euro"). But, the germans are amazingly docile sheep... not so much as in usa-style propaganda junkies, but more as in "i'm just an ant, i cannot do anything anyways. "They" decide this stuff, not me, i just vote." And so, they complained, they whined and they were angry..... but they had collectively given themselves up.... the whole culture has this painting on it. And as a few years passed, even the whining and complaining faded away, as they accepted it as a done deal that requires no further questioning and control... something which "they" now manage, not them.
Who won? The usual suspects..... until they go broke.
Hey, they once tried to escape the international banking cartel and look what it got them.
Thank you. The conversion from Mark to Euro is an excellent point.
It is amazing what goes on in Germany. And as for the people being docile sheep, they've been beaten into submission over the last 60+ years. Most aren't even proud to be German. Until recently it was rare to see someone with a German flag at their homes.
..... there is even talk of letting Albania join .....
they will never learn
<<Like Will Rogers said, "you can't beak a man that don't borrow". >>
Then you need to make him an offer he can't refuse to get him to borrow. The mafia has been doing this for years and so have the bankers (is there a difference?).
They start out with an offer of a crust of bread or a monthly chicken leg (on credit) to a starving man. Then they build a sweatshop factory to assemble shirts and he has a job for his minor children working there for 100 hours/week or so. Before you know it, he's buying a BMW (on credit). It's a gradual process of indoctrination and induction, much like Catholicism or many other religions.
Sheep can be trained if one uses a flake of hay or a cup of grain occasionally, and a nip on the leg by the sheep dog if they get out of formation. Most humans are just sheep that walk on two legs.
Exactly, and I would bet the majority of those that were able to buy a BMW with cash relied on customers that bought their wares with credit, gov. contracts, taxes, etc.
So the answer is living within your means, not borrowing and not relying on others to take care of yourself. Agreed.
fake melons ARE wealth creators
<<If Germanys vision had been correct, they would have enjoyed huge exports of capital goods, cars and technology to their newly productive neighbours.>>
It was correct. Germany did enjoy huge exports of their manufactured goods which thereby allowed the Germans to spend yet more on automating their factories to increase an already high rate of productivity to one of the highest in the world. A visit to the Munich BMW factory was enlightening. It's amazing how little labor goes into a new BMW. Now the German banks don't want to write down the loans they made to their penniless non-creditworthy neighbors that were made to buy those German products.
<<Now they have the problem that their banks will go bust if Greece does.>>
Their banks won't go bust. The EU (and the American) proles will bail them out as always. It's happening as we write. The proles will just tighten their belts a few more notches and the German banker will just complain some more about paying $6 or $8 a gallon for benzin for the MBz 12 cylinder S class gas hog he's driving on the autobahn at 150 mph.
And they will live not exactly ecstatically happy ever after, but it's still better than 1945 or 1922.
Because Germany like the USA is not ruled by Germans only by Jews
"Permit me to issue and control the money of the nation and I care not who makes its laws."
--Ben Bernanke, Der Ewige Jude
http://dl.btjunkie.org/torrent/Der-ewige-Jude-1940-Without-hardsubs/4358...
(man about to crucified wandering past newly minted Christians--NMC says...)
"Brother, let me share your burden."
(Man about to be crucified disgourges entire cross on said NMC and exclaims) "THANKS!"
Greece owes the German banks 23.6 Billion.
For German banks, read German taxpayer savings.
German politicians want to preserve these
http://www.businessinsider.com/who-gets-pounded-greek-default-2011-4#ger...
The French invaded the Ruhr when Germany couldn't pay them. Maybe the Germans will occupy Athens when the Greeks can't pay.
Where is the Euro headed? It is pretty funny to think of some of my own experience with that currency. In 2002 we travelled to Europe and the Euro was 84 cents. In 2010 we went to Europe and the Euro was $1.26. Just last month we went to Europe and the Euro was $1.43. We have plans for another trip in the fall. Where will it be?
I am hoping for some weakness. I know Elliot Spitzer loves the Euro but it seems like a piece junk to me. Candians are sometimes called, "unarmed Americans with free healthcare". What does that make the Europeans?
Cheese eating and retsina swilling surrender monkeys who hate us for our freedom fries.
Just get it all out. It should help :)
You’re mistaken; the Europeans do not hate the Americans. It's contempt more than anything. Your not on the high on the conversational agenda for the for the average European.
You have to remember that Europeans are not as outspoken as Americans, however when we step off the plane at JFK and the first thing we are confronted with is a 300lb gorilla bursting out of their uniform moving at a snails pace chomping on a hamburger, it is obvious what we are going to be privately thinking. Then we are confronted by beggars on the street, shitty food, people who carry guns, religious nuts, the list goes on. America is a mess.
thank God for the guns. i look forward to your variant of immigration reform.
Talk like that will get you buggered by TSA when you try to leave.
Will not be visiting any time soon, no need.
America is a big country. If you fly into LaGuardia, O'Hare or JFK your first impression will likely be negative. Savvy foreigners fly to Salt Lake City or Albuquerque. They tour the Grand Canyon, Chaco, The Arches, Moab, and other national treasures that attract millions of visitors per year. Do your homework before visiting any country.
Going through the Copenhagen version of TSA, I was required to put my wallet in the tray going through the x-ray machine. I wonder how many of them get stolen.
In many European countries it seems that security is just as onerous as in the U.S. and that the same people are in control. Why? A European should know by now that the "War on Terror" is just a farce and the 9-11 attacks were an inside job.
I think it depends more on the country you are visiting. I've had some interesting experiences in Finnland. But in other countries, such as Switzerland, there is hardly an eyebrow raised. Same as Austria. From my experience it just seems to be depend on the country.
And it would also seem they are aware of the farce. But again, that is just what I see. I could be wrong.
See.....you do hate us for our freedom fries. Very fattening.
Besides where else in the world can you see such energy, passion, paradox, and amazing contrasts?
America has always been a mess and confounded europeans since alexis de toqueville....i cant spell shit..
We will muddle thru in our uniquely american way.
Let me see. I lived in Europe, fat people all over, unshaven armpits, body odor that would gag a maggot on the bus, beggars on the streets panhandling when they should be at mom's house living off her, shitty overpriced food, cops that bang on your head with a rubber club if you look at them twice, Turks knifing people in the entrances to nightclubs, religious nuts, you know Hitler was right about the Jews whispered to you after a few drinks, the list goes on. You have got to be kidding. Europe finding America distasteful? Look at the shithole you live in first. After spending years there, in various countries, I really don't understand where any European could look down on the USA. An entire continent that our ancestors fled from, full of white trash that couldn't get a boat ticket together to escape. Yep, look down your nose at America, shithead.
lol, it'll be fun talking in five years...to see whose further down the shit hole...
In five years you'll probably get machine gunned for talking at the rate we're going. Not that much fun.
Moe Howard, winner by slap!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ZgVRJ-H8U
Sure its not perfect. But neither is America. And I'm not sure where you lived, but it sounds like florida to me. ;-P
Cops with a rubber club? I can't imagine where you lived. Sounds primitive. The cops in my hood carry guns. But they will beat the balls off you faster than a group of NYC cops could ever manage.
I wonder...it's one thing to require collateralization of a debt, but quite another to take possession of said collateral...especially within the borders of a sovereign nation. How far could the EU realistically go in order to collect? Surely not an invasion...perhaps an embargo? Blockades? I'm hearing the EU bark, but I wonder about the bite...
Thoughts?
.
Cue a special Greece edition of Operation Repo, with the fat repo goons and their cuff to collar tats. Let's see em fight the street crowds to take possession of the Parthenon. I'd watch.
When the Brits tried to repo the Parthenon from the Turks a while ago, the Parthenon was the loser.
All assets become property of a government sponsored enterprise. The Greeks can strike, protest, do what they like. The country will be shut down while the Greeks work it out of their system. Their economy stops and the borders are closed so those wanting to flee can't. Eventually, cooler heads will prevail and the cashflow would start again, subject to many conditions.
It will be all neo-Greek...
what i want to know is "can they invade Germany now?" first "take all the money" then "ATTACK!"
"In 2002 we travelled to Europe and the Euro was 84 cents. "
"In 2010 we went to Europe and the Euro was $1.26."
"Just last month we went to Europe and the Euro was $1.43. "
"Euro seems like a piece junk to me."
You did a great conclusion, dude. Sherlock Holmes would be proud at you. Ehm, or not :)
In 2005 I thought real estate in Florida was junk. It continued to rise for a while. Does a rising price then mean that Florida real estate at that time wasn't junk? Does a rising price on the Euro mean that it is not junk?
The Euro is junk, just like all the other paper currencies, it has been OK for buying PM's in the last couple of years and that's about it.
As a European; I would like to ask if you would consider cancelling that trip you have planned for the fall?
Ha. That's funny. I love Europe. I just hating seeing the same games getting played on the Europeans that are getting played on Americans. I can separate people from their government and finacial overlords.
Summary: the EU just told Greece to prepare for Debtor in Possession loan issuance.
Historically, at the end of the terminal phase of exponential debt service via perpetual interest is the collective wet op. Smeagol wants his umpa lumpa...
Sovereign DiP? ohhh & I could imagine who the Trustee will be --> DSK of the IMF, because any EU nation would technically have a conflict of interest - hmmm could also consider Greece like a football stadium with a Corporate Sponsor - Greece by IBM or prehaps George Soros can acquire & spin off assets like the Greek Islands to Carnival Cruise lines...God Bless the Greek people...
There is unrest in the forest... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4amV7__XFA
+ good taste in music!
2112 or 2012?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQEgZNqa8jE
Slightly OT, but still on the topic of debt, what's the latest word on Treasury Timmy's 'extraordinary measures' to be taken starting May 6?
I think Timmy was last spotted over at The Duplex last night singing show tunes with the boys. I don't know how he is able to belt out Somewhere Over the Rainbow with that red ball in his mouth.
Debtor in posession financing!
I love it when you cut to the chase!
Ratings agencies are just lying corrupt organizations, but puts never lie. Deutsche Bank will be bankrupt and nationalized if there is a major default.
Thanks for the heads up Tyler on which german bank is nationalized first.
However you are exagerating the amount of greek territory lost. I suspect the greeks will only lose a hundred or so minor tourist and fishing islands.
Trust me. No one in Europe want the ownership of Greek Islands. Germany would force Greece to sell the Islands and hand over the money to Germany/EU. That is how it would go down. Greece is just another one of the 27 European garbage bins in EU.
Dutch auction?
Maybe sell the crap on Ebay to Trump?
I'll buy Lesbos!
An island full of fat dykes who hate men. Think Rosie O'Donnell.
At least she doesn't suck down John Ashcroft's little alCIAda fairy tale.
i think they renamed the island though
You can have it if I can have Paxos.
So Portugal should sell Gold and Greece should put up Islands or whatever all in exchange for PAPER..If any of these countries fall for this okie dokie they deserve what's comming..
I believe it is called a "bust out" in technical terms. You strip every asset you can if a debt can't be repaid. And then, "you light a match".
Now this EMU charade is making sense.
No one expects to get paid back. They are trying asset stripping. Woohoo! This is going to be fun to watch in 2012.
That's the problem with FIAT DEBT ADDICTION, which is worse than heroin. They will do anything to get more, because they want to enjoy the high that comes from spending the fiat, even if it is for useless and unsustainable pensions promised long ago. A simple and rigorously maintained balanced budgetis all that it takes to break to vicious cycle, but the associated pain is more than addict can endure, so it never happens.
"We are not discussing the exit of Greece from the euro area, this is a stupid idea and an avenue we would never take," Juncker said Friday.
EU to Greece... "now you's can't leave"
Blood in blood out.
Exactly - with a laugh and a middle-finger to the banker-gangsters who have created this system, all talk of selling islands would cease.
The people of Greece know this. The government doesn't ... yet. It will learn, or it will disappear.
The government of Greece knows that it needs to keep borrowing money from those very banker-gangsters so the Greek social security checks don't bounce next month, in which case the Greek government would disappear. Which is why the Hellenic Ministry of Finance was actually in the office working on a Friday night.