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Europe Goes "Completely Mad" At Suggestion Of Irish Default Demanded By 57% Of Irish Population

Tyler Durden's picture


Today the myth of a popular, democratic government in Ireland collapsed for good. After an impromptu poll of 500 people nationwide found that a "substantial majority" of the people, or 57%, wants the State to default on debts to bondholder, what it ended up getting was precisely the opposite. Why? "Last night that the Irish delegation
negotiating with the EU-IMF last week raised the issue of default. "The Europeans went completely mad," a senior government source said." Of course, this is a reason for the Europeans not to want an Irish default, not for the Irish. And last time we checked, the Irish government represented its people, not the interests of Brussels. As America showed all too well, we expect every banker in the world to threaten perpetual damnation for Ireland should they decide on doing what is right for its people (and so very wrong for another year of record banker bonuses). Then again, with elections in Ireland imminent, it is almost certain that there will be a massive popular overhaul of the government, and all bets at that point will be off whether the ECB can dictate terms to a brand new, and far more loyal, government. To quote to Independent: "In Dublin, there is barely concealed outrage at the interventions of Ms Merkel
and at the position adopted recently by the European Central Bank, which
precipitated the arrival of the EU-IMF team in Ireland."The ECB f**ked us," one government official in Dublin was reported
yesterday to have said." We wonder how soon before rhetoric finally shifts to action.

More from the Independent:

Asked if they agreed with a proposed €1 reduction of the minimum wage, 66 per cent said no, while 34 per cent said yes. Asked if they supported a proposed cut to child benefit, 60 per cent said no and 40 per cent said yes.

A proposed increase in third-level fees was rejected by 65 per cent and approved by 35 per cent. Asked if they agreed with a proposed reduction in tax relief on private pensions, 59 per cent said no and 41 per cent said yes.

The public was more evenly divided on the issue of broadening the tax net. Asked if they agreed that everybody who earned over €15,300 a year should be included, 52 per cent said no, while 48 per cent said yes. The proposed €100 property tax was rejected by 55 per cent, with 45 per cent in favour.

At this point what happens in Ireland in the grand scheme of things doesn't matter. Tomorrow all eyes will be on Portuguese bond spreads, Tuesday Spain, and Wednesday on Belgium and Italy.


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Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:21 | 759357 CPL
CPL's picture

Give it until tommorrow when everyone as their dog assed cousin reads about the wikileaks.


This is going to be insane.  Ireland defaulting will look like a fun family outing.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:28 | 759373 GoldSilverDoc
GoldSilverDoc's picture

I would think this would be the perfect time for Ireland to default - nobody will be looking.  Much.  And everybody else in the world, other than the criminal-parasite class (banksters), will be cheering them on.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:51 | 759413 revenue_anticip...
revenue_anticipation_believer's picture

57% ??

How about SUBTRACTING the Northern Ulster Protestant Bastards?

NOW,  57% - (-30%) = 87%


Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:58 | 759429 Sabremesh
Sabremesh's picture

Stop spouting drivel you clueless fuckwit.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:45 | 759523 Double down
Double down's picture

Something wrong with his math?

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 19:16 | 759579 scatterbrains
scatterbrains's picture

oh hell no!  I had to log in to junk this cockbite

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 20:12 | 759722 Problem Is
Problem Is's picture

2 weeks and 1 day...
I thought the new fucks had to be quiet the first year...

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 22:39 | 760032 fudstampz
fudstampz's picture

hey I am a new guy, can I say that guy is a cock-knocker?

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 23:13 | 760086 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Guess we have to upgrade the captcha to include queries about Differential Equation solutions! :>D

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 19:29 | 759602 Rollerball
Rollerball's picture

And subtract the (other) fookin' Norman pricks {:<{) leaves 95%!

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:52 | 759415 More Critical T...
More Critical Thinking Wanted's picture

You have to consider the other side of the coin: those investors who prior 2008 bought 'safe' Irish bonds at very modest interest rates.

They weren't really thinking of gambling any money - and the return wasn't great either. It wasn't some speculative investment in a risky venture. It was putting some hard earned cash into boring bonds in another, healthy looking, growing EU country.

So I expect that a lot of ordinary folks will be affected by a default - not just 'bankers'. Big pension funds, etc.

You also have to realize that the Irish have borrowed and spent that money. Now everyone should just forget about that and continue? Is the rest of the EU supposed to transfer their hard earned cash to Ireland and let Ireland continue as if nothing happened?

If Ireland does that, then there will be a lot of justified anger all across the EU, and not just in banking circles. You think Iceland was bad? The rest of the EU will leave a big smoking crater where Ireland once was, economically speaking.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:00 | 759434 QQQBall
QQQBall's picture

Sorry pal. you make a bad investment, you lose - at least it used to be like that. Justified in what regard?

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:29 | 759495 More Critical T...
More Critical Thinking Wanted's picture

Sorry pal. you make a bad investment, you lose - at least it used to be like that. Justified in what regard? [...]

So you mean that after the Irish government has colluded with Irish banks to deceive investors about the true risks of Irish bonds, you are siding with the ... banks? Is it your position that despite several laws being broken it's "tough luck", the money is stolen and we should move on, right?

Are you saying the same to pickpocket victims too? That it's "tough luck" that they got stolen from, that it's a known risk that on the street you can be robbed?

An interesting person you are :-)

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:46 | 759525 breezer1
breezer1's picture

the irish might not have borrowed if they had known that their grandchildren would become serfs to the european banks.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:54 | 759537 More Critical T...
More Critical Thinking Wanted's picture

Sorry pal. you make a bad investment, you lose - at least it used to be like that.

See how it cuts both ways?

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 19:14 | 759575 cossack55
cossack55's picture

If you invest in Ponzi schemes you better be the first out or you will lose every time.  Invest in paper. No thanks.  

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 19:34 | 759601 More Critical T...
More Critical Thinking Wanted's picture

Yes - and that's why the EU keeps bailing out the banking system - if the faith in the 'safe deposit' is gone, then a cornerstone of our economy as we know it is gone.

But if you think that gold can replace it you'd be wrong though. Ireland got into this trouble exactly because it is on the ECB's "gold standard": Ireland cannot print Euros and cannot inflate out of its debt. A gold based economy does not eliminate leverage, in fact it makes debt spirals far more deadly, and much longer lasting - as the US has seen it in 1929-1932, when it got into a leveraged debt stock bubble on the gold standard and got into full deflation fuelled via the gold standard as well.

With paper money we always have the uneasy uncertainty of the fiat, but that uncertainty also gives it flexibility. It turns out that being flexible and adaptable helps quite often - especially when you are in trouble.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 19:52 | 759661 dkny
dkny's picture

Ireland got into this trouble exactly because it is on the ECB's "gold standard": Ireland cannot print Euros and cannot inflate out of its debt.

Inflating your way out of debt is defaulting for all intents of purposes.

Also, your argument about the great depression seems rather lacking, especially when one wonders how the country managed to still survive after all those depressions in the 19th century. There were too many paper dollars to the amount of gold, or else why would they confiscate and revalue the gold?

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 23:19 | 760096 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

Inflating your way out of debt is defaulting for all intents of purposes.

Thats right, it only changes the form that the losses take. Remeber how Germany "inflated its way out of debt"?

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 20:01 | 759690 chubbar
chubbar's picture

Didn't the country move to fractional reserve banking in 1913? Any chance that printing more money than gold reserves may have had something to do with the "roaring twenties" and subsequent bust????

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 20:43 | 759788 delacroix
delacroix's picture

CORNERSTONE ? it's a paper mache movie set prop

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 21:01 | 759822 Kayman
Kayman's picture

Everyone is a victim of the criminal parasite central banking class.  First they print money and give it to their friends for free.

Then this abundance of nominal money pushes up the cost of housing (and much more).

When everything collapses, the parasites want "their" money back (with interest); money they created from thin air.

It is a game where everyone loses, except for the criminal parasite banking class.

.... it's bonuses all around gentlemen, bonuses all around.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 21:20 | 759867 trav7777
trav7777's picture

wow...this is just...moronic.

The ponzi let Ireland get far more into debt than it should have.  Under an asset-backed standard, Ireland's currency would have collapsed already.  Fiat unbackedes permit hiding the sausage via debt for far longer than would be allowed with production-backed currency.

This notion that "printing money" allows a soft default and that this is a good thing is bullshit.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 23:54 | 760161 rocker
rocker's picture


Sun, 11/28/2010 - 23:16 | 760091 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

There's ONLY ONE sure, certain thing in this World:  DEATH!

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 23:15 | 760092 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

A gold based economy does not eliminate leverage, in fact it makes debt spirals far more deadly, and much longer lasting - as the US has seen it in 1929-1932,

Wrong again.

The reason the depression was long was because the government did intervene and also devalue, when they confiscated gold and revalued it higher.

The hyperinflation in Germany was worse on society then the depression in the US. And blaming the depression on the gold standard is as hypocritical as it gets because everyone that understands real economics knows that the depression was caused by government intervention that prevented markets from clearing.


Sun, 11/28/2010 - 23:55 | 760163 rocker
rocker's picture


Sun, 11/28/2010 - 19:01 | 759548 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

deceive investors about the true risks of Irish bonds,

What is being said about the true risk of US treasuries ? Nothing.


Sun, 11/28/2010 - 19:14 | 759568 More Critical T...
More Critical Thinking Wanted's picture

What is being said about the true risk of US treasuries ? Nothing. [...]

LOL, there's no risk of default in US treasuries. The US still prints its own money, remember?

Ireland is different because it does not print the Euro. That is how it could get into this situation to begin with: it would need to devalue the Euro to inflate out of its debt (like so many other countries have done successfully), but is unable to do so.

So Ireland is in this situation basically due to what amounts to a "gold standard" being forced on it by the ECB.

Those advocating the gold standard need to remember this: countries that follow the gold standard end up like the US in 1932, France in 1936 or Ireland in 2010 - unable to evade deflationary forces. Deflation is way more dangerous than inflation.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 19:34 | 759613 eatthebanksters
eatthebanksters's picture

Maybe there is no risk of default, but as the government continues to print money, the value of that money will diminish.  Investors will lok elsewhere to invest.  Rates will have to go back up to attract investors and anyone holding a Treasury at record low yields will lose their ass. Get a clue.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 19:49 | 759640 More Critical T...
More Critical Thinking Wanted's picture

You are missing a crucial step:

... the value of the currency goes down ... exports go up, economy recovers, bond investors increase their investments (most of the treasury holdings are by corporations anyway), currency recovers again.

A lot of countries that print their own money have performed that 'trick' of a currency devaluation cycle in the last 20-30 years, and wildly successfully: Korea, Sweden, etc.

Zimbabwe had the problem of having an idiot dictator plus most of its debt in currencies it does not print: US dollars, Euros ... So it inflated and inflated, with no effect - until it ran out of control and led to hyperinflation. That's the only hyperinflationary example of the past 50 years, and it's not a major (or even developed) economy by any means.

For that single example of hyperinflation there's a dozen (and more) other examples of actual developed economies inflating their way out of debt.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 20:21 | 759740 azusgm
azusgm's picture

"exports go up"


What were you planning to export in such large quantities? It is not as though we have underutilized capacity that can be brought on line immediately. The EPA is ready to take a swat at many enterprises that may wish to attempt to manufacture or grow a good.


The EPA wants to view a milk spill through the same lens as a petroleum spill.


Or how about this? A sawmill in a small town (pop. 5,000+) in east Texas burned a few months ago. The sawmill was an important contributer to the local ecomony. The lumber business remains in a slump. However, the the final straw that pushed the company to not rebuild was that the EPA's view of the wood chip fired generator at the sawmill. What did the EPA want the sawmill to do with wood chips and sawdust? Now logs will have to be trucked farther to other sawmills and the former employees will likely need to drive farther to other jobs. Not emissions-free.






Sun, 11/28/2010 - 21:21 | 759813 G-R-U-N-T
G-R-U-N-T's picture


I believe the EPA indeed is more of a threat to businesses than many people perceive.

I am humbled by many of the economic minds here on ZH. I love reading comments and value almost everyone's impressions on their particular views, good, bad or indifferent.

I am a business man among other business men, however there is a threat that I believe is among the greatest threats that have and will destroy a man's capacity to make a living and that is the EPA, to include all the rogue agencies affiliated with them! If most people would educate themselves on the reality of the EPA and the destructive policies it engages in they would dismantle this regime limb by limb.




Mon, 11/29/2010 - 02:19 | 760404 Hook Line and S...
Hook Line and Sphincter's picture


in CA you can add "Storm Water" and "Air Quality", two agencies with sickles in hand and hoods on head.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 20:37 | 759779 Double.Eagle.Gold
Double.Eagle.Gold's picture

Chile 1973, 37 years ago.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 21:08 | 759842 Kayman
Kayman's picture


Well that works great for a single country when all other countries sit on the sideline doing nothing.

When was the last time you saw all major economies trying to kill their own currencies AT THE SAME TIME.

Your textbook is out of date.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 22:27 | 760012 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

. the value of the currency goes down ... exports go up, economy recovers, bond investors increase their investments (most of the treasury holdings are by corporations anyway), currency recovers again.

Productive industry does not appear out of thin air as a currency falls in value. It is just the opposite because productive industries are initially CAPITAL INTENSIVE.

A lot of countries that print their own money have performed that 'trick' of a currency devaluation cycle in the last 20-30 years, and wildly successfully: Korea, Sweden, etc.

Yeah, after their original bond holders GOT FUCKED.


Mon, 11/29/2010 - 04:07 | 760479 Clancy
Clancy's picture

... the value of the currency goes down ... exports go up, economy recovers


Just like that, huh.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 21:04 | 759831 Kayman
Kayman's picture

Come on guys. Printing money in excess of the growth of GDP is:


Sun, 11/28/2010 - 22:43 | 760037 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

Don't listen to anything this keynesian hack has to say.

There is a risk of default in treasuries no matter what. Even outright default cannot be avoided even if you can still print the money.

All the US needs is a CPI over 6% and it could be over. A CPI over 6% would put interest rates around 7 or 8%. With 8% interest rates, the Finance Insurance and Real Estate economy goes bankrupt again. When that happens, there will be no industry left to service the govt debt. Instant default.

What can the Fed do ? Print money  in place of tax reveue to service the debt ? While inflation is climbing ?


Sun, 11/28/2010 - 21:23 | 759873 trav7777
trav7777's picture

This is one of the stupidest posts ever...deflation is "way" more dangerous than inflation.

Both are artificial conditions.  Nations shouldn't be "inflating" their ways out of debt.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 22:20 | 760002 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

Get the hell out of here.

Zero Hedge is not a place for keynesians. Seriously just leave.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 23:59 | 760177 rocker
rocker's picture

'Deflation is way more dangerous than inflation.'   Grade "F"

Not Really, only to the banksters and fraudsters. Not the savers.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 20:59 | 759819 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

I'm in agreement. You didn't have to hold the bonds, they were saleable. The big holders of debt are bankers. If they failed to do proper risk management (probably because they knew they would be bailed out) then they should take a haircut. 

If laws were broken- apply the law: oh wait, you would be prosecuting bankers and politicians. 

The debt has no value- default. As all malinvestment, it is revalued and the economy rebuilds. 

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 21:15 | 759857 Kayman
Kayman's picture

But Sean7k

That is precisely the problem. Malinvestments are not getting written off.  The criminals are getting refinanced (on the cheap)- the Fed certainly isn't allowing market discipline to enter the doors of the the Too Big To Jail.

And the economy doesn't rebuild.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 22:03 | 759959 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

This is a response to one above. I am calling for default- it is the best solution for the Irish people.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 22:03 | 759960 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

This is a response to one above. I am calling for default- it is the best solution for the Irish people.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:33 | 759510 szjon
szjon's picture

My sentiments exactly, they had it to invest, let them lose it. I live here and I didn't borrow ANYTHING. Let the bond holders go fuck themselves rather than take a penny from my pocket. I was not living it up the last 10 years, we have been working hard in crappy jobs and saving modestly. Why should my family pay. Bonds are investments. If gold and silver crash I lose the family savings. Will someone bail me out? No.


Have you seen the list of bond holders? it reads like a who's who of TBTF.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 19:16 | 759578 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Ignore the pompous ass.  Smells like a banker to me.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 19:35 | 759619 eatthebanksters
eatthebanksters's picture

The only thing better than roast bankster is bbq bankster, slow cooked....

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 21:20 | 759865 Kayman
Kayman's picture

No- the only thing good enough for these criminals is picking their heads out of the basket and letting them look at their severed necks.

The Irish are far too gentle- with the single bullet to the back of the head.

The misery these criminals cause should not be carried by their victims.

Can the world survive without iphones and ill-gotten banker bonuses ? It certainly can.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 19:18 | 759586 scatterbrains
scatterbrains's picture

amen bro!

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 19:52 | 759660 sgorem
sgorem's picture

I'm with you szjon, but in the US. Fuck the "Bondsters"! This shit HAS GOT TO END somewhere, sometime, and it might as well start with the good people of the Ireland. Scalp the bastards..................

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:03 | 759441 Mr. Anonymous
Mr. Anonymous's picture

Hey, Bankster Collaborator, you're full of it.

This money is not to fund the Irish general fund, it is to recapitalize a private Irish bank that lent money into the securitization fiasco the world found itself in.  The Irish general fund, prior to this, was by all accounts in great shape, and certainly far better than the Americans or the Japanese.

As far as 'ordinary folks' losing their money, well, that's the nature of investing.  Risk vs. reward.  It's called Capitalism.

Finally, noting your threat to leave Ireland a 'big smoking crater', you reveal yourself to be just one more bankster sympathizer invoking the spectre of financial calamity to get what you want.  Bring it, traitor. We are ready for you and all your parasitic buddies. 

Reckoning and the day of judgement for you and your kind is coming.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:28 | 759485 More Critical T...
More Critical Thinking Wanted's picture

As far as 'ordinary folks' losing their money, well, that's the nature of investing.  Risk vs. reward.  It's called Capitalism. [...]

So why doesn't that concept apply to ordinary Irish folks who actually borrowed those funds, which financed their huge Irish housing bubble? (which got their banks into trouble.)

I.e. do you argue that those running and benefiting from what turned out to be a Ponzi scheme of Irish housing to be rewarded, while those who got suckered and got crappy returns for a 'safe' investment should lose all their savings?

In short: your moral compass needs recalibration :-)

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:39 | 759516 A Man without Q...
A Man without Qualities's picture

"So why doesn't that concept apply to ordinary Irish folks who actually borrowed those funds?"

Well, it does apply to them.  Nobody is suggesting they should be let off their mistakes and you can hardly say they benefited from the housing bubble unless they sold out a couple of years ago.

However, there are Irish property developers who made fantastic profits out of the bubble.  Basically, there was a boys club of developers, bankers and politicians who all colluded to keep the Ponzi going and owing to the fact they did not have a personal financial liability, could keep their gains, leave any losses in the companies and then push these onto the taxpayers.  I suspect part of the fear of the EU ministers is that if you expose the dreadful racket that was real estate development in one country, you set up the rest, especially Spain and Portugal.  I heard there was already planning approval for a further 4 million homes to be built in Ireland - not bad for a country with 4.5 million people! 

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 19:04 | 759553 More Critical T...
More Critical Thinking Wanted's picture

Nobody is suggesting they should be let off their mistakes and you can hardly say they benefited from the housing bubble unless they sold out a couple of years ago. [...]

I am saying just that. It's not like the money got shredded and put into the foundation of those houses, right?

No, it was spent on construction materials, on construction workers, on decoration, etc. etc. - it was all spent.

While those folks who borrowed those funds to Ireland thought that they had their savings in safe investments - government backed, investment grade safe bonds with sucky interests. If they took any risk, they were not rewarded for it in any way.

You appear to be saying that as long as you get a loan you should by all means get it, spend the money and laugh about the 'losers' and their banks who facilitated those loans, right?

So by your argument the Irish borrowers (consumerism, irresponsibility and running high debt) should be rewarded, while the lenders (austerity, responsibility and saving resources) should be punished.

Which is a consistent argument to make - I am just not sure I can agree with those morals, and I'm not sure you really wanted to make that argument either.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 19:37 | 759626 A Man without Q...
A Man without Qualities's picture

I have no idea what you are talking about and nor do I think do you...

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 19:56 | 759674 More Critical T...
More Critical Thinking Wanted's picture

I tried to keep it all very simple for you, but let me know which bit you found the hardest to understand and I'll try to rephrase.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 21:29 | 759881 Kayman
Kayman's picture


the Central bankers and their puppet masters should carry the can, not the people they duped into participating in their schemes.

For gawd's sake, Dietech. com was on CNN every 5 minutes telling everyone to take free money (more where that came from) while Greenpuke told the public there was no bubble in housing.

Dietech ( a GM sub) has morphed into Ally bank- now they are begging for money on TV.

So don't blame the little people that got caught up in the money printing tidal wave.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 22:43 | 760038 trav7777
trav7777's picture

look, man, you haven't got a fuckin clue how this works.

You think REAL money was actually lent by "savers"?  LOL.  The capital was CONJURED by the senior, more powerful banks.  There won't be any "savers" punished by the default on bullshit counterfeit capital.

The TRUTH is that there IS NO SAVINGS.  We're a LOT POORER than we think we are, because we are counting on all this debt, a reflection of future growth, as an ASSET, as WEALTH, when in reality it is SEVERELY impaired.

The FUTURE is SEVERELY IMPAIRED by the EROI and production trends in oil.

We don't have anywhere near as much real savings as we pretend to because we count other people's debts as savings.  We count mountains of paper claims held together by no more than contracts and the willingness of judges to not roboadjudicate us as our "wealth."

Mon, 11/29/2010 - 00:05 | 760190 rocker
rocker's picture

AAA+    So hard for some to understand. Savers never gave their money to a bank for corrupt loans.    Mark to market would serve well for all. Oh, we stopped that again. 

Mon, 11/29/2010 - 09:21 | 760626 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

hammer, meet nail head.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 20:42 | 759787 Fred Hayek
Fred Hayek's picture

The possibility of default is part of the cost of any bond, as the entities who bought those bonds well knew.  They were not purchased by naifs, by babes in the woods.

But all those sharpies will turn out to have underestimated the chance of default because they, collectively, pushed Ireland too far.  That, also, was not furtively hidden from them as a possibility.

Should Ireland follow through in enacting the wishes of its people in this regard I will buy Irish goods whenever possible.


Sun, 11/28/2010 - 21:34 | 759888 Kayman
Kayman's picture

And I will do it too....

A trip to the home of my ancestors seems like a fine thing to do.

Tell Blankfein you're not paying the vig.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 19:07 | 759551 A Man without Q...
A Man without Qualities's picture

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 19:39 | 759633 eatthebanksters
eatthebanksters's picture

Now I know your a banskter, cause you're to funckin' stupid to have a clue as to reality.  If you offer candy to a kid, he's gonna take it.  If you offer cheap 'no strings' money, with promises that it will always be there, to unsophisticated folk, they will take it.  As a matter of fact, there were plenty of smart people that took it.  Why don't you loan me your own money and give me 30x leverage.  If I lose it I won't give a shit either.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 21:03 | 759830 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

If the irish people borrowed funds, then those funds must have assets attached to them. The holders of these assets have the perogative to go after them. However, this case is different- the IMF is forcing a bailout on the collective collateral of the entire country , including pensions and infrastructure, to bail out bankers who made bad investments. 

Default is a much better alternative, even if it leaves Ireland to their own devices. Bankers have no moral compass, why should their subjects?

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 22:38 | 760031 trav7777
trav7777's picture

YES...let them have the fucking ASSETS that collateralize the loans.

As for sovereign debt, the TRUTH is that this is a pimp/pusher dipole where the government like a bunch of fat shit turkeys lines up for as much gorging as it can get from bankers who operate as parasites in symbiosis therewith.

And the government's debt is collateralized by the people.  The situation NEVER should have been permitted by the CBs and banksters to get this far, but it always seems to.

It's Argentina EVERYWHERE.  Same fucking political class, same fuckin bankster class, same revolving doors, same bribery.  I mean, shit, we have a nonstop turnstiles between Treasury and Wall Street executivery in this country.  Do you ACTUALLY think that the execs from the banks AREN'T pimping out the government once they get a chance to infect it with debt like a virus?

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 23:12 | 760085 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Don't see where we are in disagreement Trav. The only way to stop the turnstile and crime is to default- Ireland and then everyone else including the USA. 

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:05 | 759445 Al89
Al89's picture

Next time the investors will be smarter and do their own due diligence. 

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:27 | 759494 QuantumCat
QuantumCat's picture

You just stated the problem and completely missed it at the same time...

"those investors who prior 2008 bought 'safe' Irish bonds at very modest interest rates."

Why were they considered safe? Because like PIMCO and everyone else, moral hazard had become a strategy... they were all betting on collective bailouts from Ponzi-colluding governments who don't mind putting those losses on the unwashed masses.

This is insanely immoral as these bailouts are the largest "legal" transfer of wealth to the Elite the world has ever seen. 

God help us, as the dominos to slavery continue to fall.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:32 | 759507 More Critical T...
More Critical Thinking Wanted's picture

God help us, as the dominos to slavery continue to fall. [...]

If by 'falling dominoes' you mean that the Irish banks who have deceived investors (breaking several laws) with the collusion of the Irish government, should be rewarded for their behavior?

God save the planet from your logic! :-)

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 21:05 | 759833 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Yeah, there was no deception by the German, French, English and American banks. Somebody save us from your dreadful apologies for tyrants.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 23:43 | 760136 mhjhnsn
mhjhnsn's picture

Pay off the debt-holders in seniority order until the money runs out.  The rest WERE taking a big risk and should be SOL.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 23:55 | 760162 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

Please explain why a guy who thinks he has made a safe investment should be back stopped by everyone else.

Think about the logic of that proposition.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 20:22 | 759744 fleur de lis
fleur de lis's picture

I agree.  Also--David Rockefeller and the Trilats were in Ireland I think about a year ago--coincidence or planning a nasty hatch? Everywhere they go disaster follows.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:33 | 759383 MarketTruth
MarketTruth's picture

But Ireland just WON over $100B according to Bloomberg:

Ireland Wins $113 Billion Bailout as EU Ministers Seek to Halt Debt Crisis

It is like free money, right? You know, the lottery and such? Bloomberg makes it sound like a truly great thing to win billions.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:37 | 759393 CPL
CPL's picture

YAY!  We WON...more debt...yay...wait..wait a minute...

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:37 | 759394 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture


OF !




Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:56 | 759426 djsmps
djsmps's picture

That's exactly what I though when I read that headline. Perhaps they won the Irish Sweepstakes.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:08 | 759452 Mr. Anonymous
Mr. Anonymous's picture

Yep, as in you won the right for me to loan you money to buy me an EXTRAVAGANT dinner.  But I do expect you to pay me back for my extravagant dinner.  With interest!

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:12 | 759462 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

It is like free money, right?



The report is honest. Ireland is already in debt in a period of time when repayability of debt can be questioned.

Being given an extension on the debt capacity is a gift: consuming now on known amount of resources is much better than rely on a future consumption on unknown amounts of resources.

They definitively won something.

Just confirmed that the Irish were at getting the best deal for themselves.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:27 | 759493 MarketTruth
MarketTruth's picture

So if repaying is in doubt, why lend them more? Why give more crack cocaine to a dead broke addict? Or, better still, why force crack cocaine on citizens who want RECOVERY? So who is really being bailed out by this loan... besides the self-interest banksters that caused this mess and the Rothschilds?

Mon, 11/29/2010 - 04:51 | 760499 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

So if repaying is in doubt, why lend them more?


The answer is plain: because the Irish will consume resources that are located outside Europe, depleting these areas and therefore relieving on future security costs (no resources to gather hence no supply lines to securize)

If Ireland was no longer active in this, other people elsewhere will fill the Irish position and use resources to accumulate on their territority, hence future security costs on the rise.

It is a consumption game. The debt grows unlikely to be repaid. Yet still being allowed into debt allows to consume amounts of non renewable resources at the exclusion of the other players.

People who are getting the haircuts are all the nations over the world that can not consume now.  

Irish people being kept into the game was decided to keep other players from entering or extending their play in the game.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 19:41 | 759637 Rollerball
Rollerball's picture

You must have a Phd in economics.  The only extension "won" was by the usury vigilanties (and arms importers) dumbass.     

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:39 | 759391 CPL
CPL's picture

If anyone is unable to get to the site it's because they've been under a massive DDOS attack pretty much all day.


Here are all the mirrors.


Grab the info before google nukes it under executive order.  It's been playing whack a mole with the domain all day.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:54 | 759420 Roscoe
Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:08 | 759453 CPL
CPL's picture

To get backups for the database.  wikileaks in itself is now a spent orange.  It's only the data that matters now.  Torrents are up now btw.


Christ the memos are like reading stereo instructions.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:41 | 759518 Cleanclog
Cleanclog's picture

Yep- BBC leading with wikileaks, Irish bailout underneath.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 19:26 | 759598 midtowng
midtowng's picture

I don't understand why default or bailout are the only two options. What happened to "simply not bailing out the banks"?

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 21:46 | 759913 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture



“recent admissions that the Israeli lobby, AIPAC, routinely receives masses of classified information makes them suspect #1 for being the source of Wikileaks” ch-of-assange-and-the-stench-of-aipac/

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 23:23 | 760103 goldsaver
goldsaver's picture

Nope. The leaker is already in custody. A SPC Manning bragged on line how he had copied the classified data he had access to as part of his duties and sent the data to wikileaks. Unless you are going to tell me that SPC Manning is a strawman put there by the Jews to justify leaking terrabyte worth of classified information they where using to their advantage.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:23 | 759359 bugs_
bugs_'s picture

Mutually Assured Default

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:24 | 759361 YHWH
YHWH's picture

Irish default is going to free the floodgates of Third World default on IMF debt.  Then it's bye bye IMF - to the cheering approval of Hugo Chavez. 

I think that's the ultimate fear.  Remember this little tidbit of info:

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:14 | 759465 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Irish 'defaulting'  is a no story. Wont impact consumption. On the contrary...

Third world countries getting out of the debt scheme; that would be pretty bad.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 21:43 | 759904 Kayman
Kayman's picture


Uh...yeah... and who funds China ?  Why, of course, WallyMart and the rest of Corporate (outsource American jobs) America.

Want to stop Mr. Yappy from selling crude to China ?  Stop importing worthless Chinese crap and trinkets into the U.S. and Europe.

Nuf said...

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:37 | 759365 bankonzhongguo
bankonzhongguo's picture

Don't let that IMF plane leave the runway. 

All this sovereign debt was fun when it was foisted upon disorganized brown people with no industrial capacity and untapped natural resources.  Now that the Death Star is looking at Alderaan things just don't seem the same. 

Default.  That is the only negotiating tactic a debtor has.  After default you can always "negotiate."

Notice how every currancy is being "devalued."  Russia defaulted in 1998 and guess what?  Russia still exists.

To the Irish negotiators;  Defaulting is the same as not loading a bullet into a chamber.  Giving into the IMF and their ilk loads the gun. 

Which do you want pointed at your head? 

When the USA can get their money at 4.25%, why do austerity and finance at 7% when your corporate tax rate is the little island of sanity in the corporate world?  If anything. Lower your tax rate.

These crooks won't think you are serious until someone is punched in the face.


Sun, 11/28/2010 - 23:56 | 760168 trav7777
trav7777's picture

Russia/USSR is an interesting study.

First collapse in 91 after their oil peak in 89 and then another followon default in 98 after the whole usury clan oligarchy infection.  Up comes Putin, boots the mfers out, and imposes a strong dose of nationalism, not internationalism, onto the nation and they come back a bit.  Even succeeded in invading Georgia.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:27 | 759368 TimmyM
TimmyM's picture

If the Irish people tolerate this crap I will have to change my Irish name in shame.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:32 | 759382 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

You just have to attract the attention of the NSA and they can do this for you in like 5 seconds.



That should do it :)

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:38 | 759396 Shameful
Shameful's picture

Really I was thinking more terms like

Private Federal Reserve, Jekyll Island, Gold as Money, Crash JPM Buy Silver

Would be terms that would concern them a lot more.  After all the ones you list are just extra funding for them.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 19:44 | 759643 eatthebanksters
eatthebanksters's picture

its terrorist and the black helicopters will be circling

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:55 | 759421 grunk
grunk's picture


Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:02 | 759439 QQQBall
QQQBall's picture

spell it shamus like this shame-us? ;)

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:28 | 759372 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture









Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:50 | 759530 tallystick
tallystick's picture

Fuck Brussels

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 20:48 | 759794 Fred Hayek
Fred Hayek's picture

It's not even in an actual country.

I mean, the name "Belgium" appears on maps but there isn't a "Belgium" any more, is there?

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:33 | 759376 ZeroPower
ZeroPower's picture

I know it's in quotations and all, but come on, 57% of 500 persons represent the Irish sentiment...?

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:37 | 759392 nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

Polls have margin of error but given the question and current situation this seems about right.

We better wait until the election results.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:07 | 759450 Racer
Racer's picture

And the UoM sentiment is based on 500 phone calls and represents the WHOLE of the US?

I think the Independent is far more significant statisically than a poll that moves markets in a massive way (well not really, it is all a CON game and they just use the con figures)

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:26 | 759491 ZeroPower
ZeroPower's picture

Thank you, that's precisely my point. Mich sentiment is bullshit just as much as this, a sample of 500 in a universe of many millions is ridiculous.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:48 | 759527 nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

500 in 300 million about economics; you have a point regarding umich: it is a wild guess.

500 in 6 (six) million; essentially about taxes (yes/no with direct impact in your life): it is a good sample.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 21:48 | 759920 Kayman
Kayman's picture

If  p was truly random then 500 adults in a country the size of Ireland does stand up.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:30 | 759377 ILikeBoats
ILikeBoats's picture

How many here believe it is just coincidence that the pain hit Ireland before a new election could be completed?  That is, it is only coincidence that the Irish traitors who will bail out the banks will be conveniently replaced only after it is too late to do anything about it?

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:34 | 759387 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture



Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:37 | 759514 Wooly
Wooly's picture

"...conveniently replaced only after it is too late to do anything about it?"

Its never too late! A new government may just have the balls (and mandate) to say no.. at least we can live in hope cant we?

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 20:50 | 759797 Fred Hayek
Fred Hayek's picture

Um, not exactly the precedent we were looking for.

Mon, 11/29/2010 - 00:02 | 760184 trav7777
trav7777's picture

Agree...because Hitler was a madman, so ANYTHING he did, EVER, was insane and we should always do the opposite.  If Hitler is ever documented to have said 2+2=4, we must repudiate it.  Otherwise, a certain lobby will have a conniption.

Mon, 11/29/2010 - 02:37 | 760421 Hook Line and S...
Hook Line and Sphincter's picture

Yes Trav, I agree. He was so deranged that he changed his route every time he traveled. I hear he wiped after going to the bathroom as well.

<end sar-gasm>

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:31 | 759379 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Default Ireland. We all need to default and take the banksters down. 

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 20:26 | 759753 azusgm
azusgm's picture


Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:33 | 759385 Shameful
Shameful's picture

Glad they can finally be free of the illusion of democracy and self rule.  We have a united system covering most of the world.  A government of the oligarchs, by the oligarchs, and for the oligarchs.  Can dress it in whatever pretty bows needed to entice the locals but the game is the same.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:35 | 759389 digalert
digalert's picture

To the people of Ireland,

Default and save your country.

Tell the IMF to pound sand.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:58 | 759430 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Screw the Europunks. 

Form the Peripheral Island Liberty Nations, or some such, with Iceland and Greece (they have a lot of islands).  Maybe add Wales, Isle of Mann and Scotland (stay away from the suicidal Brits), and Voila' name your own terms and seek Chinese and Russian assistance and never, never trade in FRNs.  I'll be seeking immigant status soon.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:38 | 759395 liberal sodomy
liberal sodomy's picture

Start going after spouses and children the same way they have attacked you and yours.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 19:46 | 759652 Rollerball
Sun, 11/28/2010 - 20:28 | 759761 honestann
honestann's picture

That is exactly what the predators-that-be have people doing today.  How insane.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:47 | 759406 terranstyler
terranstyler's picture

Default bitchez!

But this could prove short-term bearish for PM, right?

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:01 | 759436 QQQBall
QQQBall's picture

you're kidding, right... cascading sovereign defaults and you think gold goes down? Dude, that's EOTW-type stuff... where would you hide?

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:10 | 759457 terranstyler
terranstyler's picture

Come on, I am overly bullish on PM!

It's just that I'd like to know how far silver and gold go in a liquidity squeezy mass sell-off. I am fully aware that they'd be the first to rebound, but could my silver bought on margin hit the 20$?

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:48 | 759407 max2205
max2205's picture

Could be a number of bodies with pinstripe jackets floating in the bay his week

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:51 | 759411 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Poll, question:  Which country will not take the bait of an IMF bailout first and overthrow their respected government? 

WIll it be-

a)  Ireland

b)  Portugal

c)  Italy

d)  Spain

e)  England

f)  Greece (assuming reducto)

g)  Japan/America (on a long enough timeline)

h)  They will all succumb to tyranny

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 17:56 | 759424 CPL
CPL's picture

I'll take Z for Zachariah.


Operation Zachariah.


Last man standing's in wikileaks.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:05 | 759437 liberal sodomy
liberal sodomy's picture

In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

brussels and londonistan will need to be given the carthage treatment if any are to remain free.


Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:12 | 759460 terranstyler
terranstyler's picture

This is but a taste of the terror that Lenihan will unleash!

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:42 | 759517 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

TD and George have reminded me not even Germany and France are out of the soup line.

France Germany and the UK are getting hit with wider credit default swap spreads


Sun, 11/28/2010 - 20:25 | 759752 honestann
honestann's picture

H: because far too few people understand how utterly and totally corrupt and predatory are the predators-that-be who make these decisions.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 23:57 | 760170 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

Fear...that is what will pacify the masses until the shit really hits the fan

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:08 | 759432 grunk
grunk's picture

Bloomberg headline:

Ireland Wins $113 Billion Bailout as EU Ministers Seek to Halt Debt Crisis



Was this Lotto or Powerball?


Sun, 11/28/2010 - 20:24 | 759750 honestann
honestann's picture


Anyone, especially government, who borrows is a loser, not a winner.  A winner is someone whose wealth is increasing organically (by investment of earned profits).

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:02 | 759438 Robert J Moran
Robert J Moran's picture

If the Irish (with their temper) cannot stand up to Brussels, what chance have any other European 'former nations' have?!  

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:04 | 759440 M.B. Drapier
M.B. Drapier's picture

The "completely mad" tale is Irish government spin, of course. But it may well be true. The anecdote about the ECB doing us live comes from a story in yesterday's Irish Times. It seems clear to me that the ECB did indeed perform a beautiful judo throw on Ireland (and to a lesser extent the other governments).

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:07 | 759443 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

Just as a point of information, people, Ireland runs a DEFICIT.


They don't operate at breakeven.  Default is reducing the deficit to ZERO overnight, which means a lot of people die within weeks when their Alzheimers treatments end, when their physical disabilities stop getting subsidized, when their pensions end and they starve, and when NO ONE WILL LEND THEM THE MONEY TO BUY OIL.

Without oil, food doesn't get transported to grocery shelves and even the non disabled starve.

There is never going to be a default.  It makes no sense for anyone but you few folks who think world destruction turns you and your gold into Bill Gates.  It's just not ever going to happen.  It could even result in a country being conquered after their armed forces are defunded. 

And, of course, there are the swaps.  Swaps would get them conquered for sure and any profitable assets confiscated by the conquerors.

Default solves nothing for them.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:15 | 759466 Mr. Anonymous
Mr. Anonymous's picture

Couple points:

1) Iceland defaulted and I have yet to read reports the island sank into the Atlantic or there was mass starvation.

2) Argentina defaulted and, whoa, they're still going.

3) Ditto Russia.

2) Watch out for angry populism.  The people end up doing the strangest things. And the Irish are perhaps the craziest of all.

Erin go Brach!


Sun, 11/28/2010 - 19:09 | 759564 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

Iceland gets humanitarian aid.  They aren't a vibrant, growing economy and never will be without the ability to borrow.

Argentina is the same, and Russia, even with their oil, is the same.

You're talking about taking a 1st world country and overnight having 1 million refugees head for the UK border.  

I know you gold guys want default to give you a chance to be right, but it's just not in the cards.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 20:22 | 759745 honestann
honestann's picture

In the world of today, borrowing is a BALL AND CHAIN... not the key to a "vibrant, growing economy".  You must read and absorb IMF propaganda, or something, because that notion is absolutely insane, especially in the context of government spending.

When a human or corporation or government does NOT borrow, they tend to be more careful about spending wisely.  This alone is sufficient to explain why borrowing is STUPID.

To be sure, a company that has a successful product, and can clearly see their sales are only being held back by lack of funds to build additional production lines, and the risks are objectively far outweighed by likely benefits, borrowing CAN BE rational in this small context.  Today, that has almost nothing to do with borrowing, as governments operations are destructive, not productive.

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 22:06 | 759964 Kayman
Kayman's picture

Crash man...

what again was the vibrant, growing economy thingy going on in Iceland before they discovered unlimited criminal banking leverage as the basis of an economy ?

Sun, 11/28/2010 - 18:19 | 759480 Internet Tough Guy
Internet Tough Guy's picture

And if they run a deficit how are they going to repay the debt? Default is inevitable.

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